Why is it that it seems ok to promote the idea of a Muslim conspiracy to rule ?

[truthseeker63]

Why is it that it seems ok to promote the idea of a Muslim conspiracy to rule the world like the Neocons promote but if you talk about a Jewish conspiracy you are an Anti Semite a Jew hater a White supremacist ? The Islamic Political Takeover of America Posted by Daniel Greenfield Bio ↓ on Aug 19th, 2011 frontpagemag.com...

[جوري]

because after the downfall of communism. Islam is really the only ideology standing in the way of the 'New world order' and globalization. It is an actual system. Jews have actually abolished the laws of the OT. Ask a Jew for instance if their current state is a Jewish one as they proclaim? if they say yes you might want to familiarize yourself with Jewish laws and ask them why they're not implemented or even so far as criminalized under the so-called Jewish state. Ask a Jew how many wives he's allowed to take for instance and then ask them yet again of why that allowance was abolished in the 1950's..
Don't get me wrong the Muslim world is in totality secular but none of our scholars abolish the laws of God and the majority of us if not all practicing Muslims wish for khilafah and to see that shari3a is implemented.
Indeed westerners are paranoid because our desire isn't so much to force our rule over their sovereign nations, rather regain our khilafah in our sovereign nations which with any attempt they go off cleaning entire villages and stratifying women, children and elderly as 'Al Qaeda' operatives and 'terrorists' with the aid of disgusting despots and traitors. But it is ok, they can scheme and devise.. Surely Allah swt is with the righteous if we're indeed righteous ..

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

Actually, much to my surprise, this was one of the very first things I asked about when coming to this forum way back and I was told by multiple members here that muslims actually DO want to take over the world and push islamic law on all of us. Maybe people were just having some fun with a newbie though.

[جوري]

You'd be surprised that sharia law is compliant with a good 65-70% of 'western' law as is and there are many instances where I know a westerner would prefer shari3a over the law of their land. Someone like Britney spears who was forced to pay alimony to to her deadbeat husband and lose custody of her kids would have had no such problems under sharia'a in fact the deadbeat would have been the one paying her while she gets to keep her fortune. Idiots of east and west think they can do better or pretend to know all about sharia'a to perpetuate their paranoia and hatred.. And they don't see it as history repeating itself.. No no, when it was the Jews it was plain ignorance and hatred, the Jews were perfect angels and adolf was just a bigot whereas Muslims are of course the spawn of Satan!

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[Ali Mujahidin]

First we must understand that much of what we know about what's going on around the world comes from the media. Then we must understand that the media, by and large, is a business. Business as in making money. So what sells is sold by the media.

So, if stories about gay liberation sells, then the media sells those stories and we get the impression that gay liberation has become a global phenomenon. Which is something rather different from what's really going on.

In the same way, the idea of a Muslim conspiracy to rule the world sells and that's what the media sells.

Isn't that simple?

[CosmicPathos]

i dont think britney will be much pleased with Sharia law. Yea maybe getting custody over her kids might make her happy. But going about in decent clothes, and not dancing on the stage might not bode well with her. Moreover, who knows who was more deadbeat, her husband or britney herself. He probably slept around, she probably slept around. And neither would be much too happy with the lashes and probably the stoning.

[Ramadhan]

You'd be surprised that sharia law is compliant with a good 65-70% of 'western' law as is and there are many instances where I know a westerner would prefer shari3a over the law of their land.

I've heard from my friends who work at sharia banks here in Indonesia that they have many clients who are non-muslims chinese Indonesians who prefer to borrow capital from sharia banks because of leniency and better conditions.

[ardianto]

Actually, much to my surprise, this was one of the very first things I asked about when coming to this forum way back and I was told by multiple members here that muslims actually DO want to take over the world and push islamic law on all of us. Maybe people were just having some fun with a newbie though.

I was born in Muslim family in Muslim country, and started to learn Islam since I was kid. But my Islamic teachers never taught me about take over the world. Then I grew up and meet many Muslim who active in da'wah and social activities, but they never talked anything about take over the world. I also meet Muslims who talked about "Khilafah Islamiyah", but that's only for Muslims, and they never want to take over the world or push Islamic law to all non-Muslims.

However, since I use internet, I found a new kind of Muslims who called "Ahlul Website Wal Internet". Muslims who learn Islam only from websites in internet, without learn Islam from Islamic teachers in the real world. Their understanding of Islam is strange because they did not follow the right method in learn Islam. And usually they regard themselves as more Islamic than other Muslims. Those who say Muslims actually do want to take over the world are people like this.

[Ali Mujahidin]

I've heard from my friends who work at sharia banks here in Indonesia that they have many clients who are non-muslims chinese Indonesians who prefer to borrow capital from sharia banks because of leniency and better conditions.

Well, in Malaysia, we have an odd situation. The way the Islamic Bank gives loans, there is a loophole in the contract. The person who takes the loan is only bound to repay the loan within the agreed time. Say, the agreed repayment period is ten years. Then so long as the person who took the loan repays within ten years, he is not in breach of contract. He could actually repay it at the very end of the ten years.Very sad situation, don't you think?

[جوري]

i dont think britney will be much pleased with Sharia law. Yea maybe getting custody over her kids might make her happy. But going about in decent clothes, and not dancing on the stage might not bode well with her. Moreover, who knows who was more deadbeat, her husband or britney herself. He probably slept around, she probably slept around. And neither would be much too happy with the lashes and probably the stoning.

you'd have to prove she has committed adultery no? You can't impose the law based on a rumor mill even if it were a cold hard fact. Shari3a doesn't run on whimsey or tabloid papers... Furthermore how's is it exactly that you figure one can impose the law on a non- Muslim even if they were living in an Islamic state? As far as I know they're allowed to eat drink and screw whatever they want.

[melonkali]

I was born in Muslim family in Muslim country, and started to learn Islam since I was kid. But my Islamic teachers never taught me about take over the world. Then I grew up and meet many Muslim who active in da'wah and social activities, but they never talked anything about take over the world. I also meet Muslims who talked about "Khilafah Islamiyah", but that's only for Muslims, and they never want to take over the world or push Islamic law to all non-Muslims.

However, since I use internet, I found a new kind of Muslims who called "Ahlul Website Wal Internet". Muslims who learn Islam only from websites in internet, without learn Islam from Islamic teachers in the real world. Their understanding of Islam is strange because they did not follow the right method in learn Islam. And usually they regard themselves as more Islamic than other Muslims. Those who say Muslims actually do want to take over the world are people like this.

Now that's a very interesting observation. When I think about it, that seems true in my Christian faith as well. I've met a very few Muslims, and quite a few Christians, and people of other faiths, in real life, conversing face to face. None that I can think of seemed as unreasonable or mean-spirited as some whom I've encountered on the internet. And I might extend that idea to the news media as well -- I don't understand how some "Christians" I've read about in the news could act so badly, as if they had no conscience at all. Some of their actions go against any and all teachings I've ever received, first-hand, from people of my faith -- and the same goes for most ordinary discussions I've had with other Christians (of course I've met a few Christians who will never date my daughters, but I wouldn't describe them as evil.)

One reason I'm reading this forum, to learn more about Islam, is that two of the finest people my husband and I have ever known were Muslims (and that says a lot when you consider that I've met, face to face, maybe a total of five Muslims). When my husband was involved in a movement against injustice in our region, and things got hard, and everyone started to scatter, his Muslim friend stood, calmly, graciously, but firmly, without fear or hesitation -- his extraordinary courage and noble demeanor in the face of trouble inspired my husband, along with a few others, to stay and stand beside him.

Do you think there is a Muslim equivalent of the ugly "media Christians" we see on the news every day? Do we (sincere people of any faith) behave differently, better, when we come to know each other face to face? rebecca

[Muezzin]

General notice - racist remarks are not tolerated on this site and have no place in Islam. Please do not make them. You will be infracted.

Do you think there is a Muslim equivalent of the ugly "media Christians" we see on the news every day? Do we (sincere people of any faith) behave differently, better, when we come to know each other face to face? rebecca

Hi Rebecca, and welcome to the forums.

I think the long and short of it is that it's easy for people in general to abuse online anonymity. People tend not to be so vitriolic in real life, face to face. Few are so indecent (or so... brave?)

[Abz2000]

^ maybe it's because they don't come across much hate among the general population,
i personally come across more hate on the net and on the tv than i do among the people,
but i respond appropriately wherever it happens.
i even happened to get arrested and locked up for three days and get a £400 court fine for slapping a guy who told me i looked like a terrorist - despite my having tried to walk away from him when he was taunting me at first.
not because i was carrying an rpg, not because i was wearing a thobe, nor a turban, nor a long beard.
just jeans, trainers, a jacket, and a 5mm short skin hugging beard
the cop said "he could have hit the concrete and died", just because the guy fell on the floor.

anyways...........
i believe they try to push the "islamist conspiracy" in order to muffle out the fact that it is they who plan to impose a despotic dictatorship upon the globe,
here's absolute proof of them saying it:

[CosmicPathos]

Perhaps my definition of racism is different from yours. If I added the qualifier "kufaar" in front of white then I guess that would not have been racist?

lakum deenukum waliyadeen.

[CosmicPathos]

you'd have to prove she has committed adultery no? You can't impose the law based on a rumor mill even if it were a cold hard fact. Shari3a doesn't run on whimsey or tabloid papers... Furthermore how's is it exactly that you figure one can impose the law on a non- Muslim even if they were living in an Islamic state? As far as I know they're allowed to eat drink and screw whatever they want.

you are right that it would have to be proven without a shadow of doubt, I did not imply that she for sure is a zaani, perhaps she is more abstinent than a nun. But in general I am hoping you are aware, after living in that society for a long time, or at least by counseling teenagers on birth control pills, of the high prevalence of pre-marital sex and of STIs (whose main mode of transmission is multiple sexual partners).

[Ramadhan]

I find it hilarious (not to mention the obvious irony) when a secular west claiming there's a muslim conspiracy to rule the world, when the fact is that western troops are in muslim lands, and leaders of western countries are shoving secular western values on everyone on the planet, case in point: hillary clinton and david cameron tying foreign aid with promotion of homossexual relations.

[CosmicPathos]

I find it hilarious (not to mention the obvious irony) when a secular west claiming there's a muslim conspiracy to rule the world, when the fact is that western troops are in muslim lands, and leaders of western countries are shoving secular western values on everyone on the planet, case in point: hillary clinton and david cameron tying foreign aid with promotion of homossexual relations.

Isnt that racist against the "Western" more evolved nations? We know that it is generally assumed that these Western nations have Caucasians as the majority (majority in policy making as well).

[Abz2000]

^ if you look at the arabs, you will find they describe each other as "black" and "white/red" just as we do here,
the Prophet (pbuh) fell under the category of "white"
and Bilal (ra) fell under the category of "black"

it plays into the hands of anti-Islamic media by turning it into a race issue, because many "white" people in america at one time believed that Islam was a religion of "black" people due to the ignorance of some of those who were a part of that group. let us not repeat the same mistake.

[CosmicPathos]

^^ Yea so I think just like that my comment was twisted and interpreted as racist. I am fully aware that there are some great white Muslim brothers and sisters and I have nothing against them. In the context of what I wrote, I was clearly referring to a certain segment of that population. But seems some zaalimoon deemed it necessary to twist what i meant and hand down an infraction under the title of "racism." And no, you are not the only one who is well educated in Islam when it comes to the reality and acceptance of racism in Islam.

[Abz2000]

^lol - it must've been an inadvertent mistake on your part, why not pm the mod?

[CosmicPathos]

^lol - it must've been an inadvertent mistake on your part, why not pm the mod?

Yea the only mistake was that since I was talking about Western countries, I made the mistake of referring to the majority population there i.e. white. Oops.

I do not want to make this thread on races, but to clarify, some classical Islamic scholars also divided Muslim population into two: Arabs and Ajams. Some also gave the ruling that non-Arab Muslim men were not allowed to marry Arab women. This was done under the title of Kafaah/Lineage.
The ruling relevant to non-Arabs is as follows: ‘An Ajmi (non-Arab) cannot be a match for a woman of Arab descent, no matter that he be an Aalim (religious scholar) or even a Sultan (ruling authority). (Raddul Muhtar p.209 v.4)


To end it off, white Muslim brothers and sisters if you love Allah, then I also love you. Signing off.

[Abz2000]

The ruling relevant to non-Arabs is as follows: ‘An Ajmi (non-Arab) cannot be a match for a woman of Arab descent, no matter that he be an Aalim (religious scholar) or even a Sultan (ruling authority). (Raddul Muhtar p.209 v.4)

whoever said that should have referred to the marriage of the black abyssinian slave bilal (ra) to an arab lady,
the Prophet was behind the marriage and even advised the parents.

from the prophet (pbuh)'s farewell speech
....O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.
All mankind is from Adam and Eve,
an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor doas a non-Arab have any superiority over an Arab;
also a white has no superiority over black nor does a black have any superiority over white except by piety and good action.
Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.
Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.....

let's come back to topic,

[Ramadhan]

Isnt that racist against the "Western" more evolved nations? We know that it is generally assumed that these Western nations have Caucasians as the majority (majority in policy making as well).

You are assuming too much from what I actually said, bro.

[Pygoscelis]

I find it hilarious (not to mention the obvious irony) when a secular west claiming there's a muslim conspiracy to rule the world, when the fact is that western troops are in muslim lands, and leaders of western countries are shoving secular western values on everyone on the planet

Agreed. It isn't much of a secret, even to us westerners, that the US is engaging in imperialism and that these "wars" have little to nothing to do with "keeping America safe". It is the military industrial complex at play.

[Pygoscelis]

^^ Yea so I think just like that my comment was twisted and interpreted as racist.

Here is what you wrote:

He probably slept around, she probably slept around, You cannot really know that for white people.

You now want to qualify this by saying "Kufar white", as if that is any less bigotted.

Its about equal to this:

He's probably a terrorist, she's probably a terrorist, You cannot really know that for muslims.

[Ali Mujahidin]

It is the military industrial complex at play.

Ah, the wonders of the English language. Such an innocent word for such a horrific activity. I am, of course, assuming that you are not downplaying the gravity of the issue.

[Pygoscelis]

Believe it or not, there are those of us in the west who are just as disgusted and dismayed at the actions of the (primarily) US military overseas. I am personally ashamed of Canada's involvement in Afghanistan and am glad we pulled out. I'm with Ron Paul on this particular issue. We should focus our monies on improving our own societies and let the middle east take care of itself, removing all foreign aid from the region (including Israel!) and be done with it. But there are powerful forces at play in the (primarily) US that won't let that happen. Ron Paul was actually excluded from a recent debate because he won't tow the line for Israel.

[CosmicPathos]

Here is what you wrote:



You now want to qualify this by saying "Kufar white", as if that is any less bigotted.

Its about equal to this: Its about equal to this:

He's probably a terrorist, she's probably a terrorist, You cannot really know that for muslims.

Dont majority of white kufaar, who have never academically studied Islam or history, already think that? I mean banning niqab cuz of being scared about what is the woman hiding under that dress says a lot about what your lot thinks in the first place. This lot did the same thing with Aboriginals: "educated them for their betterment."

So are you saying that pre-marital sex and such promiscuity is not common among your people? I think you have not been to night clubs on Friday nights then.

The fact that night club owners and porn/adult shop owners are protected by law to sell their filth, and the majority of your nation agrees with their rights, does not that reflect on the promiscuous nature of your peoples? Does not the fact that your people cannot communicate with a niqabi woman without seeing her face, her eyes, her lips, her facial expressions, her body, say a lot about the inherent promiscuity of your peoples? On one hand your people make those claims, yet your people keep on developing things such as msn, facebook etc where no facial expressions are required yet communication takes place flawlessly. Who is being a hypocrite? Cut the political correctness crap.

I think there was not a single day when my preceptor in family med was not prescribing/guiding teenagers out of grade 9/10 on how to use birth control pills, condoms and of course abortions. And of course the number we treated for STis is a totally different ball game.

[Pygoscelis]

Dont majority of white kufaar, who have never academically studied Islam or history, already think that?

No. I actually don't personally in my real life know a single "white kufaar" who thinks that, nor black kufaar nor asian or indian kufaar who thinks that. I don't even personally know any conservatives who think that, not even my fundamentalist christian friends I but heads with (who incidentally happen to be white kufaar possibly more chaste than you). If I did hear somebody actually say the above quote I would call them out on their bigoted statement just as I have you.

Just because you want to be a bigot and paint entire races with broad brushes doesn't mean we all do, and from my muslim friends have told me Islam doesn't teach you to do that either.

[Ramadhan]

To the mods: Why is his rubbish tolerated while other (less ignorant and more "unislamic") posts are cleaned up immediately?

He received infractions, others that you may have in mind never received any.
And I thought his post was deleted?

Edited:
I deleted his racist remark and subsequent references to it.

[Muezzin]

And with that, it would be good if we could all return to the topic of the first post of this thread, about why it is apparently acceptable to promote the idea that there is a Muslim conspiracy to rule the world.

[ardianto]

Now that's a very interesting observation. When I think about it, that seems true in my Christian faith as well. I've met a very few Muslims, and quite a few Christians, and people of other faiths, in real life, conversing face to face. None that I can think of seemed as unreasonable or mean-spirited as some whom I've encountered on the internet. And I might extend that idea to the news media as well -- I don't understand how some "Christians" I've read about in the news could act so badly, as if they had no conscience at all. Some of their actions go against any and all teachings I've ever received, first-hand, from people of my faith -- and the same goes for most ordinary discussions I've had with other Christians (of course I've met a few Christians who will never date my daughters, but I wouldn't describe them as evil.)

One reason I'm reading this forum, to learn more about Islam, is that two of the finest people my husband and I have ever known were Muslims (and that says a lot when you consider that I've met, face to face, maybe a total of five Muslims). When my husband was involved in a movement against injustice in our region, and things got hard, and everyone started to scatter, his Muslim friend stood, calmly, graciously, but firmly, without fear or hesitation -- his extraordinary courage and noble demeanor in the face of trouble inspired my husband, along with a few others, to stay and stand beside him.

Do you think there is a Muslim equivalent of the ugly "media Christians" we see on the news every day? Do we (sincere people of any faith) behave differently, better, when we come to know each other face to face? rebecca

Dear Rebecca. Sorry for late reply.

Extremists are exist in every religion. Islam also has 'its own' extremist who call themselves "Jihadist" but kill innocent people and commit terror that actually forbidden in Islam.

Of course, not all Muslims are terrorists, but unfortunately many non-Muslims have bad image on Muslims as terrorists. This make me sad.

I know, there are extreme Christians who hate Islam/Muslims, but I cannot say all Christians hate Islam/Muslims. There are many Protestant Christians in my mommy big family, and I have many Christian (protestant) and Catholic friends. My relationship with them is very good, Alhamdulillah, and they always respect to Islam/Muslim. Also, when I was kid I studied in Catholic elementary school which all of my teachers are nuns. They taught and treated me very well.

I always remind people in my Muslim community, not all Christians hate Islam/Muslims. There are many good Christians who have great religious tolerance.

I do not expect anything from Christian people. But I am very happy if there are Christians who can tell other Christians, not all Muslims are terrorists, there are many Muslims who have great religious tolerance.

:)

[truthseeker63]

I think 9/11 was a bad thing however we Aericans must change our foreign policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign..._United_States

[Abz2000]

the two towers on 9/11 were bad enough, building 7 was worse.

and it's not that they believe a "muslim conspiracy" to rule, the books of Islam and prophecies are available to all - therefore ruling out the word "conspiracy",
rather it's their fear that ultimately the people of the world will choose Islam that keeps them moving:


“ There are people who control spacious territories teeming with manifest and hidden resources.
They dominate the intersections of world routes.
Their lands were the cradles of human civilizations and religions.
These people have one faith, one language, one history and the same aspirations. No natural barriers can isolate these people from one another
... if, per chance, this nation were to be unified into one state, it would then take the fate of the world into its hands and would separate Europe from the rest of the world.
Taking these considerations seriously, a foreign body
should be planted in the heart of this nation to prevent the convergence of its wings in such a way
that it could exhaust its powers in never-ending wars. It could also serve as a springboard for the West to gain its coveted objects.”

Sir Campbell Bannerman, [Prime Minister of Britain (1905-08)]

not long afterwards, the zionist movement began to move with the help of britain.



Lord Zetland [March 24, 1940, British Secretary of State for the colonial India]
“[T]he call of Islam is one which transcends the bounds of country. It may have lost some force as a result of the abolition of Caliphate by Mustafa Kamal Pasha, but it still has a very considerable appeal as witness for example Jinnah’s insistence on our giving undertaking that Indian troops should never be employed against any Muslim state, and the solicitude which he has constantly expressed for the Arabs of Palestine.”


US Think Tanks
In December 2004, A report by the National Intelligence Council (NIC) state a possible scenario that by 2020 a “New Caliphate" would have been established.
This 123-page report titled "Mapping the Global Future" was aimed to prepare the next Bush administration for future challenges,
and was presented to US President, members of Congress, cabinet members and key officials involved in policymaking.
According to CSIS (Center for Strategic and International Studies), Washington based think tank, this report was not a prediction, but a case exercise/study which involves observing the various events taking place in the world.
These events are then connected in such a way that there might be a possibility of forming of a Caliphate state.
Given that such a state may be established, then it is to be decided from today as to what needs to be done to prevent it, if it needs to be prevented.
Moreover there are two organizations which did such a study, one is the CIA and the other is Shell Oil Company.

[truthseeker63]

Do I believe that the Jews conrol the World the answer is no because there are evil people in all races religions and nations.

[attica]

I don't think there is a Muslim conspiracy to take over the world. A "conspiracy" would imply its kept secret. However, it is stated openly by many Muslims that the world is divided into the House of Islam, which are areas ruled by Islamic law and the House of War, which are areas not ruled by Islamic law. These countries will be offered the possibility to accept Islam and, if they do not, Muslims will be justified (or are they obliged to, that's the part I am not sure about) to invade them and subject them to Islamic law. Is this a correct understanding of this House of Islam/House of War dichotomy? It is the one I have seen spoke of most often, but I would be interested if someone could rebuke it for me (because living in a non Islamic country, I don't fancy it being invaded and my being forced to conform to Islamic laws).

[Ramadhan]

I don't think there is a Muslim conspiracy to take over the world. A "conspiracy" would imply its kept secret. However, it is stated openly by many Muslims that the world is divided into the House of Islam, which are areas ruled by Islamic law and the House of War, which are areas not ruled by Islamic law. These countries will be offered the possibility to accept Islam and, if they do not, Muslims will be justified (or are they obliged to, that's the part I am not sure about) to invade them and subject them to Islamic law. Is this a correct understanding of this House of Islam/House of War dichotomy? It is the one I have seen spoke of most often, but I would be interested if someone could rebuke it for me (because living in a non Islamic country, I don't fancy it being invaded and my being forced to conform to Islamic laws).

Can you please tell us the sources of this house of Islam and House of war dichotomy?
I don't think I can find it in Qur'an and Ahadeeth.

[Abz2000]

However, it is stated openly by many Muslims that the world is divided into the House of Islam, which are areas ruled by Islamic law and the House of War, which are areas not ruled by Islamic law. These countries will be offered the possibility to accept Islam and, if they do not, Muslims will be justified (or are they obliged to, that's the part I am not sure about) to invade them and subject them to Islamic law. Is this a correct understanding of this House of Islam/House of War dichotomy?

Muslims did not just take over countries to rule over them as kings and rip their resources, the status quo was that whoever gained enough power just ennexed other lands to their kingdom and demanded a permanent tax - regardless of who they were.
the Muslim rulers would send epistles to the kings of other lands
1. inviting them to Islam
2. giving them the option to pay the tax to them instead of it stopping at the current occupying king - whether from Rome or Persia or anywhere else - and allowing them to tell people about Islam.
3. war

if they accepted the first two the Muslim Caliphate would be duty bound to protect them from any external threat.
anyone who accepted Islam was no longer required to pay (proving that they didn't have their own "lordship" and financial gain in mind).
anyone who was weak or poor or unable to pay was exempt and would even receive benefits

History has recorded many examples of Muslims fulfilling their sacred promise towards the dhimmis. The companion of Prophet Muhammad, Abu Ubayda al-Jarrah, was the leader of the army that conquered Syria. He made agreement with its people to pay the jizya.Realizing the faithful loyalty of the Muslims, the Syrian people of the covenant resisted Muslim enemies and aided the Muslims against them. The residents of each town would send some of their people to spy against the Byzantines, who conveyed the news of the gathering of Byzantine army to Abu Ubayda’s commanders. Finally, when the Muslims feared they would not be able to guarantee their protectect ,Abu Ubayda wrote to his commanders to return all the money they had collected as jizya with the following message for the Syrians:‘We are returning your money to you because news has reached us of the awaiting armies. The condition of our agreement is that we protect you, and we are unable to do so, therefore, we are returning what we have taken from you. If God grants us victory, we will stand by out agreement.’When his commanders returned the money and conveyed his message, the Syrian response was:‘May God bring you back safely to us. May He grant you victory. If the Byzantines had been in your place, they would not have returned anything, they would have taken everything we own and left us with nothing.’The Muslims were victorious in the battle. When people of other towns saw how their allies were defeated, they sought to negotiate a truce with the Muslims. Abu Ubayda entered into a truce with all of them with all the rights he had extended in the first treaties. They also requested that the Byzantines hiding among them be given safe passage back home, with their families and possessions, without any harm, which Abu Ubayda agreed to.Then the Syrians sent the jizya and opened their cities to welcome Muslims. On the way back home, Abu Ubayda was met by the representatives of townspeople and villagers requesting him to extend the treaty to them as well, to which he happily complied.
Umar ibn al-Khattab the second caliph of Islam, once passed by a old, blind man begging in front of a house. Umar asked him which religious community he belonged to. The man said he was Jewish. Umar then asked him, ‘What has brought you to this?’ The old man said, ‘Do not ask me; ask …poverty, and old age.’ Umar took the man to his own home, helped him from his personal money, and then ordered the head of the treasury, ‘You must look after this man and others like him. We have not treated him fairly. He should not have spent the best years of his life among us to find misery in his old age.’ Umar also relieved him and others in his situation of paying the jizya.Another example is found in Khalid ibn al-Walid’s letter to the people of the Iraqi city of Hira. It contains the terms of truce he offered them:‘If God gives us victory, the people of the covenant will be protected. They have rights promised to them by God. It is the strictest covenant God has made incumbent on any of His prophets. They are also held by the duties that it places upon them and must not violate it. If they are conquered, they will live comfortably with everything due to them. I am commanded to exempt from jizya the elderly who cannot work, the disabled, or the poor who receive charity from their own community. The treasury will provide for them and their dependants as long as they live in Muslim lands or in the communities of Muslim emigrants. If they move outside of Muslim lands, neither they nor their dependants shall be entitled to any benefits.’

so you see it was not as simplistic as the orientalists would have you see it

[SorayaCali]

Because some people are unusually paranoid about muslims. Then again if they were trying to take over the world, and successfully doing it, that would be very frightening indeed. But it's not, the anti muslim bigots ironically give muslims far far too much credit.

[Pygoscelis]

Well played here SorayaCali. You necromanced one of the many threads in which muslims said incredibly racist and offensive things JUST before you got banned for doing something similar (I presume after reading the ww3 thread). Seriously though, why play those games? This is their house and we are guests. They do have a few petulant children in the house who like to attack us, but we need to ignore them to conversation can with the others. Don't become a petulant child yourself. You'll see the exact same thing on atheist boards, christian boards, conservative boards, and liberal boards. Its the minority view person that has to have the thicker skin.

[Ramadhan]

Well played here SorayaCali. You necromanced one of the many threads in which muslims said incredibly racist and offensive things JUST before you got banned for doing something similar (I presume after reading the ww3 thread). Seriously though, why play those games? This is their house and we are guests. They do have a few petulant children in the house who like to attack us, but we need to ignore them to conversation can with the others. Don't become a petulant child yourself. You'll see the exact same thing on atheist boards, christian boards, conservative boards, and liberal boards. Its the minority view person that has to have the thicker skin.

You truly have no idea the filth SayonaraCali have spewed, unprovoked, in the other threads that have since been removed.
I now truly believed she is not what/who she claimed to be.

Maybe if you don't see it, then they don't exist?

Goes to show that you cannot always depend on your senses and intelligence to ascertain truth, eh?

[Santoku]

Muslims did not just take over countries to rule over them as kings and rip their resources, the status quo was that whoever gained enough power just ennexed other lands to their kingdom and demanded a permanent tax - regardless of who they were.
the Muslim rulers would send epistles to the kings of other lands
1. inviting them to Islam
2. giving them the option to pay the tax to them instead of it stopping at the current occupying king - whether from Rome or Persia or anywhere else - and allowing them to tell people about Islam.
3. war

No matter how many times I read this it comes out as naked aggression.

"Either join us, pay us protection and allow us to subvert your people or we will attack you."

Can't see any other way of interpreting it.

[جوري]

No matter how many times I read this it comes out as naked aggression.

"Either join us, pay us protection and allow us to subvert your people or we will attack you."

Can't see any other way of interpreting it.

That's because you're an ignoramus:
Jizya is taken from non-Muslims in lieu of their lives, wealth and honor. Thus, whenever Muslims felt that they couldn’t fulfill this responsibility, they returned the amount of Jizya to the non-Muslims.

In the Battle of Yarmouk, when the commander of the Islamic army, Hadhrat Abu ‘Ubaidah (May Allah be well pleased with him) had to leave the city of Homs for strategic reasons, he returned the whole amount of Jizya to the non-Muslims and said: We had taken the responsibility of protecting you. In lieu of that you had given us Jizya. Now we are unable to fulfill this responsibility. Thus, we are returning the amount to you.

This behavior of Muslims brought tears to the eyes of the residents of Homs. They started praying: May Allah bring you back safe and sound and give you domination over your enemies. If it were the Romans, they would not have returned even a soiled dime. (Futuh Ul Buldaan, Vol. 1, Pg. No. 162)

Every time I pay taxes here half of my salary literally goes to do the opposite, subvert others and attack them needlessly.
You've no morals and no war ethics and so naturally have a desire to project your own inadequacy which you drop along with cognitive conservatism wherever you go and stink up the place..

God I hate people who leak!

[Santoku]

Well Bluebell I note you do not dispute my analysis of the demands made.


That is a charming story, I wonder where did it come from? Who wrote it?

As for your last we all have things we dislike, some show forbearance, some unleash a torrent of venom.

As for this comment "You've no morals and no war ethics and so naturally have a desire to project your own inadequacy which you drop along with cognitive conservatism wherever you go and stink up the place.."

I think that you do not know me, you only know that I dare to oppose your beliefs and that that entitles you to insult me and launch a vitriolic attack on me, I would match my personal morals against anyones and since I have made no comment on war you have no idea what I think or what my ethics are.

[جوري]

Well Bluebell I note you do not dispute my analysis of the demands made.

what analysis pray do tell? does poop on a dung beetle's a$$ count as analysis now a days?

That is a charming story, I wonder where did it come from? Who wrote it?

It is called history although I'd recommend you enroll in some remedial courses first!

As for your last we all have things we dislike, some show forbearance, some unleash a torrent of venom.

In your case just pure useless manure unfortunately!

As for this comment "You've no morals and no war ethics and so naturally have a desire to project your own inadequacy which you drop along with cognitive conservatism wherever you go and stink up the place.."

I think that you do not know me, you only know that I dare to oppose your beliefs and that that entitles you to insult me and launch a vitriolic attack on me, I would match my personal morals against anyones and since I have made no comment on war you have no idea what I think or what my ethics are.

Not really, you write simply to display your hatred to anything Islamic and to be objectionable not out of knowledge or reason!.. I am not under any obligation to accommodate pseudo-intellects if I can even be so generous nor have I desire to be politically correct. You don't get to define for me what's appropriate least of which when your basic knowledge could be better summed up in the words of a babbling three year old..

best,

[Pygoscelis]

I think that you do not know me, you only know that I dare to oppose your beliefs and that that entitles you to insult me and launch a vitriolic attack on me

Don't feel special. She's a "soldier". In my time here I have yet to see her write civilly to anybody who doesn't blindly support Islam. And if you call her out on this tribal nature of hers she flips out entirely. ;D

[Pygoscelis]

You truly have no idea the filth SayonaraCali have spewed, unprovoked, in the other threads that have since been removed.
I now truly believed she is not what/who she claimed to be.

You are correct that I didn't see all the posts posted by the person that was banned. Was she posting wishes for muslims to die? I did see a few of her posts and they were pretty rude, but nothing approaching what Bluebell here and CosmicPathos post on a regular basis. But as I said, as the outgroup of the board, we really do need to have the thicker skin, as is the case with the outgroups on other boards (including atheist and christian boards) and she apparently didn't have one and lashed out.

[جوري]

She's a "soldier".

That I am ...

best,

[Aprender]

I did see a few of her posts and they were pretty rude, but nothing approaching what Bluebell here and CosmicPathos post on a regular basis. But as I said, as the outgroup of the board, we really do need to have the thicker skin, as is the case with the outgroups on other boards (including atheist and christian boards) and she apparently didn't have one and lashed out.

You really have no idea what you are talking about and I think it's best for you to not to comment on the people that you know nothing about. You don't know them and you CERTAINLY don't know SorayaCali or the extent of the things that she said to members on the message board and offline of this message board. No one said anything to her to make her "lash out". That was on her on whim due to her strong dislike for Muslims and the religion of Islam. You don't know the circumstances of her situation so I think it's best that you refrain from giving your 2 cents on something that you know nothing about.

You're lucky that you and other disrespectful pseudo intellects (not putting you into that category) here get to only be the "outgroup" on a mere message board where as practicing Muslims are the "outgroup" of the entire world. Deal with that and then you'll really know what it means to have thick skin....

You have it easy.

[جوري]

You really have no idea what you are talking about and I think it's best for you to not to comment on the people that you know nothing about. You don't know them and you CERTAINLY don't know SorayaCali or the extent of the things that she said to members on the message board and offline of this message board. No one said anything to her to make her "lash out". That was on her on whim due to her strong dislike for Muslims and the religion of Islam. You don't know the circumstances of her situation so I think it's best that you refrain from giving your 2 cents on something that you know nothing about.

You're lucky that you and other disrespectful pseudo intellects (not putting you into that category) here get to only be the "outgroup" on a mere message board where as practicing Muslims are the "outgroup" of the entire world. Deal with that and then you'll really know what it means to have thick skin....

You have it easy.

It is a good defense mechanism to deal with uncomfortable situations with humor maybe even a little cynicism to uplift his wounded pal.. you see as tribal as we are and we're quite a large tribe here.. they're indeed a small tribe of two, and not the witty mordant or well read type either.. so when the other jack can't come up with a reasonable rebuttal to returned Jizyah his solitary assail has come up empty and if he'd simply read history and nothing I particularly quoted he'd see it as a reason many southeast Asian countries entered into Islam not merely return of Jizya alone but the mannerism and ethics of Muslims to which they responded almost in totality.
The people of Afghanistan are unconquerable so tells us history of the grave yard of empires.. but they were of the same nature when they were Buddhists, so how is it that they embraced Islam in totality, when the British, Soviets and Americans with their 'fantastic might' failed?
Deductive reasoning isn't the strong suit of the atheist or haters.. so we can't blame them for not appreciating just how droll we find them..

:w:

[Scimitar]

Was she posting wishes for muslims to die?

Dude, this is nothing new to us Muslims, we here this kinda nonsense all the time. But what she wrote - HAD TO BE DELETED TOTALLY (the ban was a merciful act on IB's behalf because I was ready to unleash my troll personality on her - I can't even bring myself to recall her words.)

Let it rest at that. And for your information, I have read CosmicPathos' and Bluebells posts and they do not even touch on the word "trolling", whereas SayonaraCali... oops, I mean SorayaCali, was a walking talking trollfest here on this forum. She even admitted she wanted to get banned and was engineering it by being a total letdown to your kind.

Ontopic... No - there is no conspiracy for Muslims to rule, get REAL. Our Khailphate fell in 1924. Since then we just want our Khaliphate back. Sod the rest... they'll take a look at our example and compare with their own "free" lives and "psychologist" culture - realising that they have indeed been misled into a false ideology that brings no peace to any region, locality or even to the self.

And that's where Islam wins out.

Peace to you, Scimi

[جوري]

^^ lol jzk don't worry about it too much .. You know when that girl said 'have you been sheltered all your life you can't even get under my skin' I genuinely smiled of Muslim mannerism al7mdlillah an ummah based on haya I have a long way to go still .. I don't in fact think you've it in you to be cruel or troll like least of which to a female creature ..
One of the things I have in common with cosmic though styles differ is medicine it will do that to you well many bad things that need to be reconciled with humanness anyway ... I don't think I'd be happy if you changed your character for her ilk or his .. . They come and go and in the scheme of things really dont matter...

Not sure how autocorrect worked here but I always read amusing things the next day when I have another look lol ...
Gnight insha'Allah or good day

[Scimitar]

Actually, a few of my posts were deleted too, I don't know why... well maybe because I was responding to her nonsense, and the thread got taken offtopic. I did ask if I could call her 'Sayonaracali' though... does that count as trolling? :S

Goodnight/morning to you to sis.

Assalaam Alalikum, Scimi

[Santoku]

what analysis pray do tell? does poop on a dung beetle's a$$ count as analysis now a days?



It is called history although I'd recommend you enroll in some remedial courses first!
In your case just pure useless manure unfortunately!


Not really, you write simply to display your hatred to anything Islamic and to be objectionable not out of knowledge or reason!.. I am not under any obligation to accommodate pseudo-intellects if I can even be so generous nor have I desire to be politically correct. You don't get to define for me what's appropriate least of which when your basic knowledge could be better summed up in the words of a babbling three year old..

best,

You really are not very sure of yourself are you?

If you cannot meet someone on the intellectual plain you just scream insults at them until they give up trying to have a civil discussion with you and then you scream "Victory, I have won, see they flee!!"

[~Zaria~]

^ I have not completely followed this discussion, but I was just wondering......


How does one gain a reputation of -244?

Interesting.......o_o

[جوري]

You really are not very sure of yourself are you?

If you cannot meet someone on the intellectual plain you just scream insults at them until they give up trying to have a civil discussion with you and then you scream "Victory, I have won, see they flee!!"

I rebutted you before exposing you for an ignoramus which is the fun part.. I don't know how they do things in your neck of the woods but we're not interested in your opinion. We're here to discuss facts, not your dislike of Islam.. You have other forums to pursue that endeavor with like minds..

best,

[Scimitar]

If you cannot meet someone on the intellectual plain you just scream insults at them until they give up trying to have a civil discussion with you and then you scream "Victory, I have won, see they flee!!"

Really? I see a double standard here. Since I've been a member of this forum, I have only known a handful non Muslim members who have no problem with Muslims or Islam - but the rest are like you, you seem to want to rattle our cage but when we rattle yours back, you become very irate and get offended very easily - is this how fragile your belief system is? Let me remind you that whenever you were rebuttled, you instantly went on the back foot, defensive and borderline sarcastic.

Muslims on this forum are also members of other Islamic forums, and I will let you in on a little inside joke. We've seen your baseless rebuttles against worded differently time and again. Sometimes we've even noticed sloppy copy/pasta jobbies from anti-Islam sites just to rile up our anger towards you guys and maybe say out of turn. But I tell you now, we've seen all this so many times before that now, we just smile and think "ok, i got a live one here - time to give him a dose of history"... something you lot have not learnt to do properly yet. You study history from the only perspective you know, the western perspective. Need I remind you that the ones who propagate the common view of history are the winners of wars - even if they were in the wrong. I ask you to study the histories of Islam comparatively - you might even discover that you own your renaissance to us Muslims... heck, if it wasn't for us Muslims you'd still be walking around smelling like a 9 day old smelly sock, we're the ones who taught you about hygeine and the use of soap... I can carry on and on but you know what? You won't listen...

I'm expecting your rebuttal.

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

If you cannot meet someone on the intellectual plain you just scream insults at them until they give up trying to have a civil discussion with you and then you scream "Victory, I have won, see they flee!!"

That is exactly what she does. But go read the other recently closed thread where she outright admitted that she's here to agitate and attack kafir, and has no interest in discussion to start with. She reads the Dawkins board where there are militant atheists and islamophobes that attack muslims, so she comes here to vent against other atheists, who she somehow assumes to be the same. It would seem she avoids places like the (mostly) atheist board I read, freeratio.org, where atheists don't behave much like on her Dawkins board (that I've never visited but can imagine).

Really? I see a double standard here.

No kidding. I've yet to see a non-muslim member of this board call for the deaths of muslims. And I'll bet you that if one did then you'd have other non-muslim members disassociating themelves and condemning them.

Kafir members are actually at a low ebb right now actually. I miss reading from CZ Gibson (the most bend over backwards to get along atheist I've seen online but still got attacked on here), Grace Seeker (Christian), Sakvau (who came here for the same reason I did and who was on Paltalk with me fighting islamophobes), and Snakelegs (who I came here with originally). Aw, now I feel nostalgic. :statisfie

[جوري]

No kidding. I've yet to see a non-muslim member of this board call for the deaths of muslims.

Always better to enlist and do it in person right? opening fire on women and children is a whole less horrible than 'wishing death' because wishes really come true oh ever reasoning papa bear!

that she's here to agitate and attack kafir

:haha: this is fresh coming from a self-professed militant religion hater...


funny stuff

[Scimitar]

@ psygosceli I recall some of those names too. May Snakelegs rest in peace, Ameen.

And those members you mention, I recall their posts when I first checked this forum out early last year... or the year before, and truth be told - it was the tolerance between belief sytems that attracted me to this place and so I signed up.

Why can't we go back to how it was and promote tolerance? Or atleast try to look into something which we don't agree with but need clarification on, by doing authentic research? All forums just seem to push opinion after opinion, and as far as I am aware, it's very rare to find scholars on these forums - from any belief system... they are far too busy to spend time on forums lol. But, there is no excuse for not doing the research. And I do mean comparative research.

Scimi

[Sunnie Ameena]

I have to say, that I am really disappointed that the people on this forum are being hateful and mean to others. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and practices. I would just like to see others have a debatable conversation without throwing ugly names or criticisms at others. Just remember one important thing, Allah has given us all life, irreguardless of our religious beliefs. I think that if I disagreed with someone from another religion, I would tell them how wonderful Allah is, and not talk about others behind their backs. If you don't agree with someone else or what they say, by all means, discuss it, but please leave the ugly things out. How is someone to learn about Islam if all they are getting is an argument. May Allah show you all Peace.
Sunnie Ameena

[جوري]

disagreeing is one thing.. down right hateful or concocted fabrications will not be tolerated.. Fact of the matter is, most of the non-Muslims here with the exception of a few aren't interested in any form of dialogue.. What they're interested in is their personal agenda and descending down to word play where they come out as victims when losing an argument.. I don't have pity for frank stupidity especially when we reference the facts and is plain for all to see!

[Pygoscelis]

Always better to enlist and do it in person right? opening fire on women and children is a whole less horrible than 'wishing death' because wishes really come true oh ever reasoning papa bear!


:haha: this is fresh coming from a self-professed militant religion hater...


funny stuff

I'm not a "self professed militant religion hater". To be that, I think I'd have to be self professing it, not have you assigning the role to me.

Board members here have called for the deaths of atheists and others have refused to condemn them. Kafir board members have to my knowledge done nothing on that level. That is the reality of this forum, your fantasies of us hunting muslims children for sport notwithstanding.

Actually, now I'm curious. When do you imagine myself and our other non-muslim board members enlisted? Are we all writing in from military bases? Are we all hiding our nationalities and really americans in disguise? Did those of us who speak out against the wars, against 9/11 hysteria, against islamophobia in person, at protests, and online... are we just covering up our secret lives in which we hunt down muslim children for sport? What exactly is this fantasy of yours?

[Scimitar]

@ Psygoscelis... what is your view on Muslims and Islam? I'd like to know. You seem to be having a reasonable debate here and I haven't had the chance to converse with you much, so please indulge.

I think it is only fair to do the same so I will say this. I believe that atheists have already come part way to saying the full shahada (declaration of faith in ONE GOD) because you believe there is no God.

Our Shahada: "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger" pbuh.

So, I feel that you are indeed part way into believing the same as me - as I beleive there is no god or gods worthy of worthy of worship Except Allah, because HE is the one true GOD.

As you can see, what I have attempted to do here is, find some common ground between us, that doesn't contradict eachothers belief but rather - provides an avenue to a deeper, more tolerant understanding.

Scimi

[جوري]

I'm not a "self professed militant religion hater". To be that, I think I'd have to be self professing it, not have you assigning the role to me.

Really? I'll leave that to members to browse through your old posts!

Board members here have called for the deaths of atheists and others have refused to condemn them. Kafir board members have to my knowledge done nothing on that level. That is the reality of this forum, your fantasies of us hunting muslims children for sport notwithstanding.

so now from ''wish'' to ''calling for'' :haha:? you really need to reflect on what you write a little, your desire to rouse some sort of emotions is failing miserably.. furthermore where does a wish stand from actual killing or is your head in the sand and selectively attentive? Haven't seen you condemning or even acknowledging the turd who killed 16 women & children just a couple of days ago. Are you for real?

Actually, now I'm curious. When do you imagine myself and our other non-muslim board members enlisted? Are we all writing in from military bases? Are we all hiding our nationalities and really americans in disguise? Did those of us who speak out against the wars, against 9/11 hysteria, against islamophobia in person, at protests, and online... are we just covering up our secret lives in which we hunt down muslim children for sport? What exactly is this fantasy of yours?

I'll render this as your inner child with an incoherent tantrum..

best,

[Sunnie Ameena]

[QUOTE=ßlµêßêll;1503489]disagreeing is one thing.. down right hateful or concocted fabrications will not be tolerated.. [/QUOTE/]

I beg to differ..saying someone is stupid is unkind and hateful. That is what I mean by name calling and such. Just because they have different views does not make them stupid. They may be ignorant of some things, but still that does not mean stupid.
And speaking of what happened to those women and children. I am so sad in my heart that someone could do such horrible stuff to them. I am an American, and very ashamed that someone like that is suppose to be helping others, and there is no excuse, head injury or not, or any other reason they may use, there is NO EXCUSE for what he did. Personally I think he is just pathetic, and he should get capital punishment.

[جوري]

I beg to differ..saying someone is stupid is unkind and hateful. That is what I mean by name calling and such. Just because they have different views does not make them stupid. They may be ignorant of some things, but still that does not mean stupid.
And speaking of what happened to those women and children. I am so sad in my heart that someone could do such horrible stuff to them. I am an American, and very ashamed that someone like that is suppose to be helping others, and there is no excuse, head injury or not, or any other reason they may use, there is NO EXCUSE for what he did. Personally I think he is just pathetic, and he should get capital punishment.

Frank stupidity and being stupid are two separate issues. There's no law against hating what is abominable which amongst other things is falsehood and the spread of falsehood especially with evidentiary facts to the contrary. Opinion doesn't trump fact and a derogatory opinion at that needs to be highlighted for what it is. You might not agree with the methodology but I am not going to change it for political correctitutde least of which to folks who insult the prophet, Islam, and the religion on daily basis and sweep it under 'freedom of speech' This too is my freedom of speech, you're welcome to disagree or skip over my posts.
I am not going to comment on the rest that pertains to Afghanistan as it is a subject for another place.. it was merely to contrast his outrage that folks 'wish death' to those who actually commit it as incredibly disparate if not frankly insulting as a point of comparison..

best,

[Sunnie Ameena]

Frank stupidity and being stupid are two separate issues. There's no law against hating what is abominable which amongst other things is falsehood and the spread of falsehood especially with evidentiary facts to the contrary. Opinion doesn't trump fact and a derogatory opinion at that needs to be highlighted for what it is. You might not agree with the methodology but I am not going to change it for political correctitutde least of which to folks who insult the prophet, Islam, and the religion on daily basis and sweep it under 'freedom of speech' This too is my freedom of speech, you're welcome to disagree or skip over my posts.
I am not going to comment on the rest that pertains to Afghanistan as it is a subject for another place.. it was merely to contrast his outrage that folks 'wish death' to those who actually commit it as incredibly disparate if not frankly insulting as a point of comparison..

best,

All I can say is WOW. Do you really speak unkind and with an attitude to everyone. I too like the others was just voicing my opinion, and secondly, don't correct me as to where my subjects can be posted, afterall, YOU are the one to bring up THAT subject. Seems like you speak your mind to EVERYONE that even just tries to speak to you. You must live a very unhappy life, because as long as I have been on this forum, I really don't recall you saying joyful stuff. And as for skipping over your posts, I will most definitely do that, cause it is not worth the drama, because afterall, I am here for only one and that is Allah. So respond all you want to what I just posted, because it is like water on a duck's back, it just rolls right off. Peace to you, Sunnie Ameena

[جوري]

All I can say is WOW. Do you really speak unkind and with an attitude to everyone. I too like the others was just voicing my opinion, and secondly, don't correct me as to where my subjects can be posted, afterall, YOU are the one to bring up THAT subject. Seems like you speak your mind to EVERYONE that even just tries to speak to you. You must live a very unhappy life, because as long as I have been on this forum, I really don't recall you saying joyful stuff. And as for skipping over your posts, I will most definitely do that, cause it is not worth the drama, because afterall, I am here for only one and that is Allah. So respond all you want to what I just posted, because it is like water on a duck's back, it just rolls right off. Peace to you, Sunnie Ameena

??? I am at a loss really, You seem upset hopefully you can work on that! I didn't bring any subject to your attention you insinuated yourself in this situation and then projected with exasperated language that can only be a reflection of your own psyche and not mine.
First sentence you start with 'Everyone' Do you with absolution know of my relationship with 'everyone'?
Second you ask me not to correct you when in fact you're the one dispensing with what is correct and what isn't!
third again you assert that I speak for everyone (still at a loss to where I have done that) and yet in the same breath you affirm that I must live an unhappy life.. You can imagine my dilemma and confusion with your free diagnoses especially when you close it off with the word 'drama' and I can state without doubt that, it is in fact you who is bringing drama to this situation.. Since you're only here for Allah why do you respond to a post and then in an underlying yet very overt fashion reproach preemptively the fact that I'll reply to this post.. I am glad it is water off the duck's back to you and I certainly hope it can be as being this worked up over a thread doesn't appear normal!

best,

[CosmicPathos]

[QUOTE=Sunnie;1503515]

disagreeing is one thing.. down right hateful or concocted fabrications will not be tolerated.. [/QUOTE/]

I beg to differ..saying someone is stupid is unkind and hateful. That is what I mean by name calling and such. Just because they have different views does not make them stupid. They may be ignorant of some things, but still that does not mean stupid.
And speaking of what happened to those women and children. I am so sad in my heart that someone could do such horrible stuff to them. I am an American, and very ashamed that someone like that is suppose to be helping others, and there is no excuse, head injury or not, or any other reason they may use, there is NO EXCUSE for what he did. Personally I think he is just pathetic, and he should get capital punishment.

Being ignorant of obvious things is stupid. If a doctor does not know that heart is made of cardiac muscle, he is an idiot stupid jack ass.

[جوري]

Being ignorant of obvious things is stupid.

There's also being ignorant and being willfully ignorant as we have clarified the point of jizya which he obviated.. so what is really left to say after that?
I like my God given right to reason and to vocalize it.. and I'll not forfeit that because it upset any ladyship' sensibilities :) or atheist sensibilities for that matter as the whole world as seen by them seems unequivocally jaded.. 'Wishing death' is a grievous crime.. committing mass exterminations against women and children doesn't get an honorable mention... it is most amusing indeed..

:w:

[Aprender]

How is someone to learn about Islam if all they are getting is an argument. May Allah show you all Peace.

This is the problem my dear sister. Not everyone that is on this message board is here to learn about Islam. Some are here to point out everything with Islam that is wrong, that they hate, that they disagree with and how silly they think we all are for following this religion. So they make subtle insults toward other members on this forum and the religion as a whole. They're not here to learn but cause trouble. In all my time here I've come across few members who actually are here to learn about Islam whereas most just want to argue about how they are intellectually superior. They ignore historical facts that members here post just so they can continue to argue. Nothing wrong with having different beliefs but I do find it sad that some of our non-Muslim guests are here just to see their posts published to make themselves feel good.

because as long as I have been on this forum, I really don't recall you saying joyful stuff. And as for skipping over your posts, I will most definitely do that, cause it is not worth the drama, because afterall, I am here for only one and that is Allah

Sis Bluebell says many wonderful things on this message board. You just happen to pop in on the posts when she is defending the religion against the crap that people post up about it and about us. You might disagree on her methods which is totally fine but she has a point to a lot of what she says. Instead of chastising her for her methods maybe send her a PM sometime and get to know her better. She's really a great person. May Allah bless her. Ameen.

What I don't understand on this message board really is why so many of the Muslim members attack their fellow Muslim members but when non-Muslims sit here and insult you, the Prophet (pbuh) and Allah (swt) many say nothing while they sit back and laugh at you...

[CosmicPathos]

'Wishing death' is a grievous crime.

Not if it is for a vocal atheist, or a gay/lesbian, openly talking about their sexual exploits, and hurling insults at Prophet, or on ex-Muslims who were once kaafir, then came to Islam, wrote Islamic articles on blogs for years, were "darlings" of Muslims on blogosphere, and then one day left Islam and then started writing articles against Islam as "inside scoop."

[CosmicPathos]

What I don't understand on this message board really is why so many of the Muslim members attack their fellow Muslim members but when non-Muslims sit here and insult you, the Prophet (pbuh) and Allah (swt) many say nothing while they sit back and laugh at you...

I think that is obvious if the seemingly Muslim appears as a kaafir in his/her ideas and behavior, we would verbally attack him/her of course. Perhaps not what Prophet pbuh would have done, but certainly what the sahaaba did! They hunted down every single person who insulted the Prophet or insulted Islam.

[Ghazalah]

All I can say is WOW. Do you really speak unkind and with an attitude to everyone. I too like the others was just voicing my opinion, and secondly, don't correct me as to where my subjects can be posted, afterall, YOU are the one to bring up THAT subject. Seems like you speak your mind to EVERYONE that even just tries to speak to you. You must live a very unhappy life, because as long as I have been on this forum, I really don't recall you saying joyful stuff. And as for skipping over your posts, I will most definitely do that, cause it is not worth the drama, because afterall, I am here for only one and that is Allah. So respond all you want to what I just posted, because it is like water on a duck's back, it just rolls right off. Peace to you, Sunnie Ameena

Then you obviously haven't been around long enough. Vale is one of the top posters on here, she doesn't beat around the bush, she gets straight to point. And frankly when some non-Muslim post rubbish what do you expect us to do? She refutes it, without being all fairy fairy. Stick around long enough and you'll see what I mean.

They hunted down every single person who insulted the Prophet or insulted Islam.

If only we had more people like that today.

[CosmicPathos]

nothing.

[marwen]

:sl:
Please guys ! If you are muslim and love Allah and his messenger SAW, don't quarrel with your brothers and sisters in islam.
Even if you feel offended by others, just let it go for the sake of Allah, you will gain nothing from disputes.
This what made us very weak these days.

Anyway, I remember this thread once had some valuable topic. What was it ... hmm :confused:

[Pygoscelis]

@ Psygoscelis... what is your view on Muslims and Islam? I'd like to know. You seem to be having a reasonable debate here and I haven't had the chance to converse with you much, so please indulge.

I'm engaged to a liberal muslim from Singapore and have some colleagues who are more conservative muslims. I have little issue with the religion as a whole. I do not and will likely never subscribe to it myself though as I do not believe that Gods (or any other supernatural things) exist. I came to this forum along with Snakelegs way back, both of us seeing the islamophobia following 9/11 and looking to dispel myths propogated by hateful evangelical christians on Paltalk (who are still there). Skavau came from there as well.

I learned through here, through my co-workers and through my fiance now that a lot of the things people say about Islam and muslims are false. I also learned that some are true. Mostly though I learned that Islam isn't as monolithic as I'd thought it was. You have your crazy hateful and violent fundamentalists and fuzzy warm pacifist liberals just like the Christians do.

Lately I've given up on trying to converse on here, following the posts in which some were wishing death on non-muslims and others admitted they were just here to attack non-muslims for no reason other than an emotional release. You can see that happening in this thread. We've now got one trying to make it appear that non-muslims don't care about muslims being killed (in fact implying that we're all out there killing you - we're not obviously) and another saying its a pitty that more people aren't hunting down and killing people who disagree with or oppose Islam, or who insult your prophet.

You yourself sound like somebody who we could engage in a good civil discussion, but it would be hard with the sideshow of clowns. We recently had another thread locked in which I and others answered some questions about atheists. No surprise, it devolved into people asking questions with no interest in reading answers (and ignoring the answers) and looking to score points instead of discuss anything, and others just there to attack.

For a civil discussion with atheists about Islam I'd really have to point you towards another board. Freeratio.org would be a good choice, but you'd be in the vast minority there, as it is mostly atheists. Most there will be civil. Avoid Dawkins' board, which is more like here but with the roles reversed.

I think it is only fair to do the same so I will say this. I believe that atheists have already come part way to saying the full shahada (declaration of faith in ONE GOD) because you believe there is no God.

Our Shahada: "There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger" pbuh.

I have heard this before. Saying we come half way though is only really true semantically. Atheists believe there are no Gods. Getting from there being no such thing as Gods to there being Gods is I think a much bigger jump than getter from there being one God to there being many. You've even got some relgions that seem to bridge that gap (ie, the Christian trinity, 3 Gods in one). I don't believe in Allah any more than I believe in Ganesh or Zeus, or ghosts or ESP, etc. I simply don't find them plausible and see no evidence for them.

worthy of worship Except Allah, because HE is the one true GOD.

I am anti-authoritarian, which is probably one reason why we could never agree on these things. The concept of "worship" doesn't jive with me. I am troubled by many monotheistic abrahamic (christian, jew, muslim) people who seem to conflate obedience for morality. Even if I believed God existed I would need a reason to do as he asks. I would not bow down to a celestial dictator or want to live in a celestial Noth Korea (as Hitchens used to put it).

Euthyphro's dilemma, which goes all the way back to Plato and Socrates, is one good illustration of this issue:
Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God? The former seems to make God a bit redundant but more acceptable to me. The latter is the conflation of "good" and "obedient" I'm speaking of. It renders anything God demands to be "Good", even if that is genocide, murder, sacrificing one's son, etc. I find that potentially dangerous.

I think my least favourite thing about Islam is tied up in this. The concept of "surrendering to God" (or those who you think are speaking for him) seems the ultimate in obedience over morality to me. I don't expect you to agree of course, but that's my vantage point.

On the other hand, I can see a lot of good coming out of Islam, including a very strong sense of community between muslims, a ban on usury, some sensible dietary laws, a command do to charitable works, etc. The recitation of the Quran can also be quite beautiful to listen to if done well and you don't have to be a muslim to enjoy it.

I also find it refreshing that Islam doesn't share into the central tenet of the Christian Faith, which I find very imoral: The idea that an innocent (Jesus) can suffer and die so that I can have MY wrongs absolved.

Anyway, since you asked, there are some of my thoughts.

Now we return this thread back to the circus...

[Rhubarb Tart]

Board members here have called for the deaths of atheists and others have refused to condemn them. Kafir board members have to my knowledge done nothing on that level.

Cheer up

The problem isn’t mad scientist or people not condemning him, the problem is YOU being offended by the inevitable. He wishes what is granted upon all of US.

The real question is why you offended by death? Since you are contrived in your belief about the existence of God, you don’t have anything to worry about. You are not liable for anything after death. Death is a lifetime sleep to you. Mad scientist is basically telling to your conscious /soul take a lifetime holiday.

You shouldn't be offended by something that is foreseeable for ANY human being, period.

Attachment 4695

Death is out his, your and my hands, wishing death does not mean that person that has the power to reschedule your appointed time.


Now, if you are affronted by someone reaffirming the facts, the jokes on you not him.

Attachment 4696

:)

[جوري]

But doesn't that just show you how superstitious and illogical heathens are? Putting so much emphasis on wishes and with repeat mention as if to undo a curse .. You actually have to pity that on so many levels especially so how apathetic when contrasted to physical exterminations which happen daily where they actively contribute in one form or another whether in paid taxes or mob like hateful diatribe or even remaining silent for all that's needed for evil to triumph is just that. But this chap here is worried about wishes, makes him come back to from aself-imposed hiatus .. after more than half a decade he learned 'everything' and yet continues asking the same Q's and making the same mistakes.. will wonders ever cease?

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

The problem isn’t mad scientist or people not condemning him, the problem is YOU being offended by the inevitable. He wishes what is granted upon all of US.

Ok, I started writing a response to this but now I think it may be tongue in cheek so I deleted it lol. I would like to point out that "mad scientist" is not the one who was expressing his hope that atheists drop dead, and nor was "mad scientist" the one who was expressing dissappointment at there not being more people hunting down and killing those who don't support Islam, or who "insult" the prophet (who apparently has such a thin skin that he needs people murdering in his honour).

Anyway, Scimitar, I think you can see my point about this forum just by reading the last couple of pages of this thread. If you want civil interfaith discussion, this forum isn't really the place for it. There are some civil muslims such as yourself (from what I can tell from your posts so far) but your voices are drowned out by the childish ones and the moderators seeem to lean in their favour.

[Pygoscelis]

exterminations which happen daily where they actively contribute in one form or another whether in paid taxes or mob like hateful diatribe or even remaining silent for all that's needed for evil to triumph is just that.

Really... if people are going to get that tribal and guilt-by-association based, then they may as well declare all muslims to be terrorists. Oh wait, "We" already do. "You" are terrorists and "We" are imperials who do attrocity. It apparently doesn't matter what you and I as individuals actually think or do.

I'm curious what exactly somebody would have to do to not be caught by this broad brushing. Opposing this is not enough. Voting against this is not enough. Speaking out against this is not enough. Calling for the heads of those who do this is not enough. Is armed rebellion (in the case of citizens of the countries engaging in this) the only way out of this guilt by association, or maybe armed invasion of those countries (for those who are not citizens of the countries engaged in this but broad brushed in anyway) or will even that not be enough?

This tribal thinking from both "sides" is exactly the problem we need to overcome. It is exactly what those in power on both "sides" exploit to keep themselves in power. And to bring this on topic, it is exactly why some in the west say it is ok to promote the idea of a muslim conspiracy to rule. They see all muslims as the same, the evil other, the same way that Bluebell depicts all kafir in the west.

[جوري]

(which if directed from a kafir towards muslims would get them banned)

who "insult" your prophet

very thin skin and needs people killing in his honour

Begs the question of why you're still here?

best,

[Pygoscelis]

Begs the question of why you're still here?

best,

I don't come here as much as I used to, but why do I come at all? Partly due to force of habbit, partly due to morbid curiousity, and partly due to the faint hope for the place that posters like Scimitar, MustafaMC and Sunnie here bring.

[Scimitar]

Bro Psygoscelis,

Salaam again. If I'm to be honest, every forum I am a member of (including a Christian one and other random ones on the net - as well as Islamic ones) have this problem, but so far I find that this forum is still the best compared to others. I can understand why you keep coming back here, despite some members who you may have some troubles with - I think that the vibe here is overall one of tolerance and not trolling.

I'm pleased you never joined the wake up project, because on that forum - I've had to put many Muslims in their place for blatantly ignoring the advice of Prophet Muhammad pbuh when debating with people from other faith groups - yep, they trolled so hard, and I defended the non Muslims and told the Muslims off in such a way on so many occasions, that I was even accused of not being a Muslim once, and even a spy on another occasion.

Truth be told bro, the real Islam is a wonderfully beautiful thing, a full solution to all of mankinds problems - but with so many morons misinterpreting the Quran or hadeeth to fit in with their own misguided opinion, on forums such as WUP - the truth often gets misrepresented.

On this forum though bro, I see progress... real progress. And not a day passes where I don't come here - regular as clockwork me, checking in everyday :). You've all become like an extended family now... Not even been a member for a full year. If I miss a day, I miss this place and the members here....

...We're created unique, we all have our quirks, our better personalities and our failings. We're all unique, but we're all imperfect. and we all want to attain a higher understanding of this world and the hereafter, to better help us. Or atleast, help us understand eachother...

Scimi

[جوري]

I don't come here as much as I used to, but why do I come at all? Partly due to force of habbit, partly due to morbid curiousity, and partly due to the faint hope for the place that posters like Scimitar, MustafaMC and Sunnie here bring.

sure sure..

btw the above was meant to highlight your all too frequent affronts against the prophet and religion as well the folks here which yet in spite of, and your willful ignorance with repeated queries to that which you were answered previously managed to sustain your stay here.. you're a clever chap aren't you?

best,

[Rhubarb Tart]

I don't come here as much as I used to, but why do I come at all? Partly due to force of habbit, partly due to morbid curiousity, and partly due to the faint hope for the place that posters like Scimitar, MustafaMC and Sunnie here bring.

I don’t understand why you are upset over one member? And there has been plenty of non muslim members that SAID far worse and admins here are forgiving. They were banned only because they persisted to insult and troll. Plus, place the comment in context, Muhammad (pbuh) is someone we love more than our mothers. You have a memory of a goldfish, if you seriously dont know who madscientist is.

Good day

[GuestFellow]

Many people promote conspiracies. Below are examples:

Some Muslims are like, all westerners are planning to abolish Islam.

Some Jews are like, everyone is anti-semitic.

Some Christians are like, noooo those Jews, Moslems and gays are taking over our Christian country.

Some Atheists are like, waaah those religious people are plotting to bring back religion or something.

Some white nationalists in Europe are like waaah those immigrants are destroying the white race.

Some black people are like, waaah all those white people are racist and are constantly discriminating us.

Some people on the Internet are like, the queen is a lizard, the illumnati, those bilderburg, the skull and bones, david ickle, alex jones and bla bla bla.

Don't take this post too seriously.

[Aprender]

I don't come here as much as I used to, but why do I come at all? Partly due to force of habbit, partly due to morbid curiousity, and partly due to the faint hope for the place that posters like Scimitar, MustafaMC and Sunnie here bring.

So any member that doesn't necessarily agree with your views is not worth having on the forum? I'm sorry but as I recall we are individuals and just because one Muslim says something to you here doesn't mean we all feel the exact same way as they do. People have their opinions.

Seems to me that most members here have been very civil in disagreements with you and the least you could do is respect the opinions of other people here.

[Pygoscelis]

So any member that doesn't necessarily agree with your views is not worth having on the forum?

It isn't about views. It is about behaviour, tribalism, and empathy. And I did not say anybody is not worth having on the forum. Check again.

I'm sorry but as I recall we are individuals and just because one Muslim says something to you here doesn't mean we all feel the exact same way as they do.

Did you read my posts before responding? I said exactly that. Sunnie, Scimitar, and MustafaMC are clearly amongst the friendlier and more polite and civil ones, and I respect them for it, even if we disagree completely on pretty much every religious and social issue. I have no problem with them whatsoever.

Seems to me that most members here have been very civil in disagreements with you

As I posted above, some are quite civil but those who only come to make emotional outbursts and attacks tend to drown them out. Yes, such childish post happen on every forum, but on most forums the admins try to keep them in line. Here they are prone to cheer them on (see the cartoon thread). It can be amusing, but don't expect much constructive dialogue in that sort of environment.

and the least you could do is respect the opinions of other people here.

Even when that opinion is that they want me dead and wish that more people hunted me down to kill me? You want me respect that opinion? Really?

Oh, one last reason why I post here that I forgot to mention... people keep asking me questions in these threads and people keep inviting me back here once I've been away too long.

[Pygoscelis]

Many people promote conspiracies. Below are examples:

Some Muslims are like, all westerners are planning to abolish Islam.

Some Jews are like, everyone is anti-semitic.

Some Christians are like, noooo those Jews, Moslems and gays are taking over our Christian country.

Some Atheists are like, waaah those religious people are plotting to bring back religion or something.

Some white nationalists in Europe are like waaah those immigrants are destroying the white race.

Some black people are like, waaah all those white people are racist and are constantly discriminating us.

Yup, and they are all operating on the same psychologcal dynamics. The funny part to me is when you see the two crossing paths, like when I see a black evangelical hate on gays while a gay white supremecist hates on blacks. You'd think being the target on the one side, they'd appreciate that they are doing the same to the other side.

[GuestFellow]

Yup, and they are all operating on the same psychologcal dynamics. The funny part to me is when you see the two crossing paths, like when I see a black evangelical hate on gays while a gay white supremecist hates on blacks. You'd think being the target on the one side, they'd appreciate that they are doing the same to the other side.

Kinda hilarious and sad at the same time.

What is your definition of a conspiracy? Just curious.

[Aprender]

Did you read my posts before responding? I said exactly that. Sunnie, Scimitar, and MustafaMC are clearly amongst the friendlier and more polite and civil ones, and I respect them for it, even if we disagree completely on pretty much every religious and social issue. I have no problem with them whatsoever.

I don't think most members on this message board have been unfriendly with you. I certainly haven't.

As I posted above, some are quite civil but those who only come to make emotional outbursts and attacks tend to drown them out. Yes, such childish post happen on every forum, but on most forums the admins try to keep them in line. Here they are prone to cheer them on (see the cartoon thread). It can be amusing, but don't expect much constructive dialogue in that sort of environment.

I know who you are talking about. But that usually happens in most types of dialogue, especially on controversial/serious issues.

Even when that opinion is that they want me dead and wish that more people hunted me down to kill me? You want me respect that opinion? Really?

Again, I believe you are referring to a certain member once again. Look, people tell me that they wish that I'd be hunted down and killed by the government to my face in REAL LIFE. And government officials, local legislators, parents of children who say these things, don't speak out about it but often encourage this type of thinking. Whenever I sit on a bus or a train with my friends, women take their children and move them away from us. I've had little kids and adults shout all types of obscenities at me when I am out in public just walking minding my own business. Multiple people. Not just one individual. And I've also been assaulted. But in real life. Not on a message board where that's just one persons opinion. I believe that many of the opinions that we have in life are shaped by our experiences and I respect that people have that opinion of wanting me dead for being a Muslim. The difference is that I don't dwell on it and most of the time I just laugh it off because they don't know me or anything about me and a lot of times it's truly a case of miseducation. I don't take it seriously and I really don't think you should either especially here on a message board. Most people here don't want to hunt you down and kill you. I believe that we all have many other serious things to deal with in our own lives and within the Muslim community to be concerned with hunting and killing a man because of what something he wrote on the internet. Leave that to Mexican drug cartels.


By the way, if you type something here and another member feels that it might be crossing the lines a little, of course you're going to get a little tribalism. We all belong to different types of tribes. This is an Islamic forum and if people feel that something you wrote might be a little insulting, tongue in cheek or beating around the bush, don't be so surprised if they throw it back at you.

I too was a non-Muslim on this forum for quite a while and I still find most of the members on this message board to be amazing, friendly, well educated people.

[Muezzin]

This thread is harder to kill than a Terminator...

Okay, discussion of the actual topic has ceased and now it is just concentrating on debating the finer points about whether picking on certain members is allowed.

Hint - nobody is allowed to pick on other members. Any problems, report the post and let a moderator deal with it. We do the stressful jobs so you don't have to. :)

Thread locked.