Boy Chooses Prayer Over Medicine, Dies

[Wyatt]

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/...-Medicine.html

"A {Christian} 16-year-old boy in Oregon died of a treatable urinary tract condition after he refused medical help, believing prayer would heal his illness."

What is some Muslim input on this?

I am personally wondering if the family (or even the boy) feels any regret for not accepting medical care. Or could they admit that without any repercussions on their "faith healing" traditions? The state law didn't allow the parents to make the decisions for him because he was over 14-years-old.

Does anyone here do the same thing and rely on God to heal and refuse medical care? I think some certain Christian groups in the US don't believe in hospitals or medicine which I think should be considered child endangerment or something.

One thing anyone may notice is that whenever there's a "miracle" of someone being healed, be it with medical treatment or not, people point to it as a sign from God... while something like this might be swept under the rug as it's troubling to interpret that God had anything to do with it.

If I believed in a God, I would probably appreciate the medical advances in the society he put me in and take advantage of that.

[Darth Ultor]

God gave us doctors for a reason. And wasn't there medical advancement in ancient Islam?

[islamica]

That was rather foolish and naive of him.

One day Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) noticed a Bedouin leaving his camel without tying it and he asked the Bedouin, “Why don’t you tie down your camel?” The Bedouin answered, “I put my trust in Allah.” The Prophet then said, “Tie your camel first, then put your trust in Allah” (At-Tirmidhi).

Islam does not discourage medicine and advancement. Rather we must do best we can in everything, including seeking treatment and preserving life. A Muslim would take the medicine for the treatment but knows the healing is from Allah.

[CosmicPathos]

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/...-Medicine.html

"A {Christian} 16-year-old boy in Oregon died of a treatable urinary tract condition after he refused medical help, believing prayer would heal his illness."

What is some Muslim input on this?

I am personally wondering if the family (or even the boy) feels any regret for not accepting medical care. Or could they admit that without any repercussions on their "faith healing" traditions? The state law didn't allow the parents to make the decisions for him because he was over 14-years-old.

Does anyone here do the same thing and rely on God to heal and refuse medical care? I think some certain Christian groups in the US don't believe in hospitals or medicine which I think should be considered child endangerment or something.

One thing anyone may notice is that whenever there's a "miracle" of someone being healed, be it with medical treatment or not, people point to it as a sign from God... while something like this might be swept under the rug as it's troubling to interpret that God had anything to do with it.

If I believed in a God, I would probably appreciate the medical advances in the society he put me in and take advantage of that.

Does not effect me. It was his choice. If not today, he would have died 80 years later. What's the big deal? Respect choices made by people. He was 16, so he definitely was "capable" of giving consent for his own health. What advances you talking about ? Treating urinary infections is not an "advance". You pop some antibiotics if there is no sepsis.

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[Wyatt]

Does not effect me. It was his choice. If not today, he would have died 80 years later. What's the big deal? Respect choices made by people. He was 16, so he definitely was "capable" of giving consent for his own health. What advances you talking about ? Treating urinary infections is not an "advance". You pop some antibiotics if there is no sepsis.

I was talking in general, if someone would do this for themselves, would they do it to their children? There have been families as stated in the article that are being tried for manslaughter because of their negligence in hopes that God would heal them. By advances, I am talking about the mere development of any medicine that some people will ignore. Not just urinary infections, but stuff like cancer or venomous bites, etc.

[CosmicPathos]

I was talking in general, if someone would do this for themselves, would they do it to their children? There have been families as stated in the article that are being tried for manslaughter because of their negligence in hopes that God would heal them. By advances, I am talking about the mere development of any medicine that some people will ignore. Not just urinary infections, but stuff like cancer or venomous bites, etc.

No family has the right to impose medical interventions and treatment on their family members! In the same way, no family has the right to withhold treatments. It is that persons' personal choice, provided they are capable of giving/rejecting the consent for treatment.

Cancer is still incurable, only few cancers have good prognosis if caught earlier. Treatment or no treatment, cancers in general are a death penalty.

I am a med student, I've rejected many medical treatments for personal health in favor of prayer. Seems you dont know how evidence based medicine works. There is no magical pill. Even aspirin for headache can kill you. As is usual with atheists, you seem to make broad generalizations about how science and medicine has progressed. It really has not that much. We still cannot cure the diseases that were incurable in 16th century.

[Wyatt]

No family has the right to impose medical interventions and treatment on their family members! In the same way, no family has the right to withhold treatments. It is that persons' personal choice, provided they are capable of giving/rejecting the consent for treatment.

Cancer is still incurable, only few cancers have good prognosis if caught earlier. Treatment or no treatment, cancers in general are a death penalty.

That's what I'm saying, some child that is 5-years-old would probably never put prayer over medicine because he would be too concerned with getting rid of his illness while a parent might say otherwise as being correct. While this boy technically had the choice to make the decision, and rightfully so because he was old enough to weigh the consequences responsibly, just the idea of someone doing this puts some confusion on others. My German teacher in high school was a cancer survivor, but I'm sure without the medical treatment, she'd have died. My literature teacher was also diagnosed with breast cancer, but I believe she died... on an odd off note, another teacher of mine died having fallen down the stairs at a hospital. This subject tears me apart.

[Tyrion]

Pretty sure what he did is forbidden in Islam... We're supposed to do what we can in this world, and on top of that have faith that God will give us results. We can't just expect God to do everything for us while we sit around and do nothing.

That hadith islamica posted sums things up nicely.

[Wyatt]

Pretty sure what he did is forbidden in Islam... We're supposed to do what we can in this world, and on top of that have faith that God will give us results. We can't just expect God to do everything for us while we sit around and do nothing.

That hadith islamica posted sums things up nicely.

Something like that really gains a lot of respect from me for Islam. =) Relying solely on God to make every decision in one's life seems disrespectful and even unappreciative of the "free will" he gave us to make our own decisions and protect ourselves.

[CosmicPathos]

That's what I'm saying, some child that is 5-years-old would probably never put prayer over medicine because he would be too concerned with getting rid of his illness while a parent might say otherwise as being correct. While this boy technically had the choice to make the decision, and rightfully so because he was old enough to weigh the consequences responsibly, just the idea of someone doing this puts some confusion on others. My German teacher in high school was a cancer survivor, but I'm sure without the medical treatment, she'd have died. My literature teacher was also diagnosed with breast cancer, but I believe she died... on an odd off note, another teacher of mine died having fallen down the stairs at a hospital. This subject tears me apart.

Well your survivor teacher probably was a rarity. Did her cancer come back? even though I hope it did not.

why does this topic tear you? Death is a reality, however are you preparing for it? I welcome you to study how Islam deals with the concept of death. Maybe you might get some peace of mind and wont be torn apart after reading this subject from Islam POV.

[syed1]

If not today, he would have died 80 years later.

From an islamic perspective how could that be the case since we believe that our appointed time is written for us? Perhaps this was his appointed and not a day later..

In terms of accepting medical intervention to cure an illness I would say Islam advocates its use...

There are hadiths which stipulate that God created no disease without also pairing it with a remedy..

Ahmed and Ibn Hibban narrated: The messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "Allah never creates a disease without providing a cure for it. the cure is known to some people and is known to others."
Bukhari and Muslims: The Prophet (PBUH) said, "No Muslim is afflicted by injury, be it illness or something else, without Allah (SWT) thereby causing his sins to drop away just as a tree shed its leaves."



Although the authenticity of these hadiths I cannot speak for, maybe some one else confirm


I was almost certain I had read a verse from the quran which infers that God did provided a cure for every illness but I cant seem to find it now. may be it was a particular translation, if anyone knows the verse (if there is one) I am interested.

[CosmicPathos]

Something like that really gains a lot of respect from me for Islam. =) Relying solely on God to make every decision in one's life seems disrespectful and even unappreciative of the "free will" he gave us to make our own decisions and protect ourselves.

But as a Muslim, I can reject any medical intervention and rather choose death. Would then you be angry at Islam? I think you should start treating this subject as people's independent choices and not religious dictates.

[Wyatt]

Well it's difficult to be apathetic towards the death of someone I knew. So far my German teacher's cancer hasn't come back and hopefully it won't ever. She was my favourite! I believe death is death and there's really no preparation for such a thing, but I don't think it's bad nor good. I am still sad to know what someone I cared for went through though. I can't say I personally believe in pre-determination of death, but that's all personal.

There are quite a few cancer survivors even though the disease itself is basically a death sentence. I think of it like getting a hole-in-one at golf.

[Ramadhan]

What is some Muslim input on this?

That is not the take of muslims at all.

In fact, Islam put humans life as paramount.
And everything which is made haram/forbidden (such as alcohol, pork, etc etc) is halal/allowed if it means they help sustaining life (or without them, life cease to exist).

In Islam, we are also commanded to do efforts (within halal confines) to improve life.

[جوري]

He was 16, so he definitely was "capable" of giving consent

you can't give consent at 16 in the U.S without a judicial review of the case.

[Ramadhan]

As muslims we are taught to seek medical treatment, but we must ALWAYS in all time have trust in Allah swt as the only one who provides cure.


Usamah ibn Shuraik narrated: "I came to the Prophet, peace be upon him, and found him with his companions. They were calm and serene as if there were birds over their heads. I greeted them and sat down. Then some bedouins came from various places. They asked him: 'O Allah's Messenger! Should we seek medical treatment for our illnesses?' He replied: 'Yes, you should seek medical treatment, because Allah, the Exalted, has let no disease exist without providing for its cure, except for one ailment, namely, old age'." (Reported by Ahmad and the six sunnan. Tirmidhi considers it a sound hadith.)

Anas ibn Mas'ud reported that the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: "Verily, Allah has not let any malady occur without providing its remedy. Therefore seek medical treatment for your illnesses.'' ( Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, and al-Hakim.)

Jabir narrated that the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said: "There is a cure for every disease. Whenever an illness is treated with its right remedy, it will, by Allah's permission, be cured." (Muslim)

[جوري]

the disease itself is basically a death sentence.

not really.. depends on the type of cancer the stage and grade of it. Someone with a papillary ca of the thyroid has a 95% chance of recovery while someone with anaplstic cancer of the thyroid has about 6 month with treatment.. It s foolish not to get treatment and not check something suspicious out because of the logarithmic stage of growth, better to treat three irregular cells than 3 million makes more sense no? Allah swt gave us knowledge, sciences and the arts so we may use them.. Everything good done is a form of worship and saving a human life per Quran is akin to saving all of mankind so how can one not want to be a part of the most noble profession and use it nobly not merely to make a profit out of people's suffering. Prayer and treatment go together.. one needs to treat the body and the soul...

best,

[Ramadhan]

Also, saving life is obligatory upon us muslims:

"if anyone slays a human being, unless it be [in punishment] for murder or spreading corruption on earth, it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind."(QS 5:32)

[Abz2000]

there are so many what ifs in these cases that it's difficult to generalize, i have come across stories where intelligence services have gotten to the doctor and got them to give mis-diagnosis and prescribe mind altering substances which made their behaviour erratic and sexually over-active to the extent it was making the person feel suicidal.
would you blame the person for rejecting any sort of establishment medication after that?

it's not as black and white as it looks on the surface,
sometimes there's a 20% chance of death or brain damage with operations and people decide to weigh it out and reject the intervention.

if anyone thinks my first comment was "conspiracy theory" check this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

[Ramadhan]

there are so many what ifs in these cases that it's difficult to generalize, i have come across stories where intelligence services have gotten to the doctor and got them to give mis-diagnosis and prescribe mind altering substances which made their behaviour erratic and sexually over-active to the extent it was making the person feel suicidal.
would you blame the person for rejecting any sort of establishment medication after that?

I guess we can only make decision on the information presented to us.
And efforts are only obligatory to us within our capability.

For Example:
a poor man may reject surgery because he is afraid he would fall into unpayable debts if he do so. That doesn't mean he choose death over life.

[CosmicPathos]

Also, saving life is obligatory upon us muslims:

"if anyone slays a human being, unless it be [in punishment] for murder or spreading corruption on earth, it shall be as though he had slain all mankind; whereas, if anyone saves a life, it shall be as though he had saved the lives of all mankind."(QS 5:32)

If you are in health care profession, this "obligatory" thing is slippery slope. You could end up being sued and be handed a certificate of malpractice.

According to modern ethics of medical profession, physician's first obligation is to individual patients. If patients are capable and understand the treatment options and still reject to have the treatment, physicians cannot force them to undergo therapy. In such cases Islamic concept of "obligatory to save life" does not apply because if you will try to save the patient despite them having rejected any desire to receive treatment, you'd probably loose your license to practice medicine.

Seems Islamic injunction of obligation to save life refers in context of emergency medicine where as a physician in NA, you will not be sued if you try to save a life of a patient without knowing their previous desires about living/dying.

Potentially a patient/his/her family with DNR signed can sue you even if you were unaware of it and tried to resuscitate the patient after collapse/shock.

[Ali_008]

^^ Nothing is forced in Islam. All we are supposed to be doing is try our best to live according to the Qur'an and Sunnah. Try offering medication but if the person rejects it then you can't make him gulp it against his will. If he rejects now, ask him after some time and relate to him the beauty of staying alive and getting the opportunity of performing good deeds. In simple words, this is how Islamic medical treatment should be in such suicidal cases.

Islam itself is the best medicine in the whole world yet people keep rejecting it. Yet do you see any doctors of deen [The Daee(s)] forcing people to accept Islam? They try as much as they can to show the beauty of Islam to the world but if someone rejects it, it's his/her personal choice.

[CosmicPathos]

^^ you are right. Using the word "obligatory", however, makes it seem like shoving it down people's throats. We can perhaps say that in Islam it is "obligatory" on physicians to try to save lives, excepting the cases where patient rejects to be treated. In the latter cases, we should respect patient's desires, and try to explore what might be going on in patient's life which has made them make such a decision. if we suspect depression, we should treat that because then patient is not capable to make a rational decision about life and death.

[Ramadhan]

If you are in health care profession, this "obligatory" thing is slippery slope. You could end up being sued and be handed a certificate of malpractice.

According to modern ethics of medical profession, physician's first obligation is to individual patients. If patients are capable and understand the treatment options and still reject to have the treatment, physicians cannot force them to undergo therapy. In such cases Islamic concept of "obligatory to save life" does not apply because if you will try to save the patient despite them having rejected any desire to receive treatment, you'd probably loose your license to practice medicine.

Seems Islamic injunction of obligation to save life refers in context of emergency medicine where as a physician in NA, you will not be sued if you try to save a life of a patient without knowing their previous desires about living/dying.

Potentially a patient/his/her family with DNR signed can sue you even if you were unaware of it and tried to resuscitate the patient after collapse/shock.

I think that ayat is a general injunction, Allah forgives me if I'm wrong.
Of course there are specific situations where you're limited in your capability or by conditions (like what you mentioned) that we are not be able to save live.


wa Allahu Alam.