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Ramadhan
12-16-2011, 08:11 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16212418

What I don't get is this:
Hitchens was as atheist as they come. But when he died, many including atheists wish him R.I.P. (rest in peace).
Well, he was an atheist and he believed there is nothing after death, so what's the "rest in peace" for?
And I am amused that atheists are also using the expression, wouldn't it contradict their belief?
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Tyrion
12-16-2011, 08:49 AM
The man is dead. Can't we give it at least a day before we start criticizing him or his "followers"?
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Maryan0
12-16-2011, 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
The man is dead. Can't we give it at least a day before we start criticizing him or his "followers"?
Nope. Let's criticize away...
Salam
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Tyrion
12-16-2011, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by Maryan0
Nope. Let's criticize away...
Excuse me? I really hope that was just a bad attempt at humor.

The Prophet (saw) respected the passing of any human being, whether he/she was Muslim or not. We should try to do the same. Also try and show some decency to those who followed him. Use this as a chance to prove to them that you (as Muslims) are not as crass and ignorant as they think you are.

Anyway, he's off to meet his Lord now, and only He can judge him.
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Maryan0
12-16-2011, 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

Excuse me? I really hope that was just a bad attempt at humor.

The Prophet (saw) respected the passing of any human being, whether he/she was Muslim or not. We should try to do the same. His Lord will judge him now.
Hitchens was an enemy of Muslims and I don't recall the Prophet peace be upon him respecting the passing of enemies of Islam. Neither do I recall Hitchens respecting the passing of countless Iraqis killed by western aggression when he continuously supported and promoted the war in Iraq.
I stand by my point I neither care nor feel sorry that he is dead. If people want to criticize then criticize away!
Salam
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Ramadhan
12-16-2011, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
The man is dead. Can't we give it at least a day before we start criticizing him or his "followers"?
Hitchens died yesterday.
We've given it a day, no?
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Ramadhan
12-16-2011, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Use this as a chance to prove to them that you (as Muslims) are not as crass and ignorant as they think you are.
Please tell me where in my post I was crass?
I was not mocking Hitchens. He's dead anyway.

I am questioning the living atheists who I've read eveywhere saying "r.i.p. hitchens"
This to me is a contradiction if not hypocrisy of their belief. So maybe our resident atheists can explain this apparent contradiction.

Originally Posted by Tyrion
Anyway, he's off to meet his Lord now, and only He can judge him.
Well, Hitchens did not believe in God, let alone hereafter.

But from muslims standpoint, hitchens is definitely NOT meeting Allah (swt). I am saying this based on the Qur'an and ahadeeth.
Unless the sentence you used above is just a meaningless expression?
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Ramadhan
12-16-2011, 09:35 AM
Originally Posted by Maryan0
I recall Hitchens respecting the passing of countless Iraqis killed by western aggression when he continuously supported and promoted the war in Iraq.
Yes, it is well documented that Hitchens was actively supporting Bush invading Iraq.
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Tyrion
12-16-2011, 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Please tell me where in my post I was crass?
I was not mocking Hitchens. He's dead anyway.
The whole idea of this thread is crass. And you're right, he's dead. That means he's no longer doing anything in this world, and the only judging that gets to be done is by God.

I am questioning the living atheists who I've read eveywhere saying "r.i.p. hitchens"
This to me is a contradiction if not hypocrisy of their belief. So maybe our resident atheists can explain this apparent contradiction.
And I've pointed out that this is unnecessary and, once again, crass (or if you want a different word, petty). You know they don't mean it literally, but you still feel the need to nitpick and make these kinds of posts...

Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Well, Hitchens does not believe in God, let alone hereafter.

But from muslims standpoint, hitchens is definitely NOT meeting Allah (swt). I am saying this based on the Qur'an and ahadeeth.
Unless the sentence you used above is just a meaningless expression?
*Sigh* Yes, he's not literally going to meet God, but just because Hitchens didn't believe in Him doesn't mean He wasn't his Lord or that he won't be judged. When Pharoah (Who obviously didn't believe in God) asked about Allah from Moses, he was told that He was "Your Lord, and the Lord of your fathers"... The point was that his Judgement is in the hands of God now. None of this is necessary, and it doesn't look particularly good on your part.

Nobody is arguing that he wasn't an open enemy to all religions... But would it kill you to be the bigger person? Anyway, as Muslims we don't believe in judging the hearts of people. For all we know, he could have (and I know this is extremely unlikely) had a change of heart sometime before his death.
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Ramadhan
12-16-2011, 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
The whole idea of this thread is crass. And you're right, he's dead. That means he's no longer doing anything in this world, and the only judging that gets to be done is by God.
Read again my first post.
I was not questioning, let lone mocking hitchens.
I am questioning living atheists.

Originally Posted by Tyrion
*Sigh* Yes, he's not literally going to meet God, but just because Hitchens didn't believe in Him doesn't mean He wasn't his Lord or that he won't be judged.
I'm glad you clarified that Hitchens will not meet Allah swt (btw, out of curiosity, why do you prefer to use the word God or Lord, instead of Allah?).

And you and I know that Allah is his God and Lord and that he will be judged during yaumul qiyamah.

Originally Posted by Tyrion
When Pharoah (Who obviously didn't believe in God) asked about Allah from Moses, he was told that He was "Your Lord, and the Lord of your fathers"....The point was that his Judgement is in the hands of God now.
I am glad you are teaching me that Allah is God of everything and that judgement is by Allah. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Tyrion
None of this is necessary, and it doesn't look particularly good on your part.
None of this necessary? none of what?
This thread is not even primarily about Hitchens, but about reactions of the atheists over hitchens' death.

Originally Posted by Tyrion
Nobody is arguing that he wasn't an open enemy to all religions... But would it kill you to be the bigger person? Anyway, as Muslims we don't believe in judging the hearts of people. For all we know, he could have (and I know this is extremely unlikely) had a change of heart sometime before his death.
Again, I challenge you to tell me where I either mocked hitchens or talking bad about him?
I have never seen you this sensitive when a muslim child is killed by american or israeli weapon.
It is very interesting to witness, I may say.
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Tyrion
12-16-2011, 10:24 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
Again, I challenge you to tell me where I either mocked hitchens or talking bad about him?
I consider making a thread about a dead man (only hours after his death is announced) in order to point out how amused you are with his oh so naive atheist followers being inconsistent to be pretty childish and uncalled for.

Originally Posted by Ramadhan
I'm glad you clarified that Hitchens will not meet Allah swt (btw, out of curiosity, why do you prefer to use the word God or Lord, instead of Allah?).

And you and I know that Allah is his God and Lord and that he will be judged during yaumul qiyamah.
I am glad you are teaching me that Allah is God of everything and that judgement is by Allah. Thank you.

None of this necessary? none of what?
This thread is not even primarily about Hitchens, but about reactions of the atheists over hitchens' death.

I have never seen you this sensitive when a muslim child is killed by american or israeli weapon.
It is very interesting to witness, I may say.
I don't have time for your sarcasm, condescension, or questioning of my character/faith. I think I've gotten my points across. (And by the way, that last bit was pretty disgusting and low, even for you... Although it wouldn't be the first time you've accused me of something like that.)
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Ramadhan
12-16-2011, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
I don't have time for your sarcasm, condescension, or questioning of my character/faith. I think I've gotten my points across.
I am also gllad I have gotten my points across, despite your accusing me of something I didn't do in this thread.
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جوري
12-16-2011, 03:31 PM
Writer Christopher Hitchens participates in a panel discussion ('U.S. and Iraq One Year Later : Right to Get In? Wrong to Get Out?') at the 9th Annual LA Times Festival of Books on April 25, 2004 at UCLA in Westwood, California. (Photo by Amanda Edwards/Getty Images)

The Huffington Post Jade Walker First Posted: 12/16/11 12:08 AM ET Updated: 12/16/11 07:16 AM ET
Christopher Hitchens died Thursday in Houston. He was 62. The legendary writer was diagnosed with esophageal cancer in 2010.
His death was announced by Vanity Fair.
Hitchens was born in Portsmouth, Hampshire, England in 1949. His father, Ernest, a commander in the British Royal Navy, and his mother, Yvonne, a bookkeeper, scrimped and saved so that he could attend the independent Leys School in Cambridge, and later Balliol College, Oxford. They were determined that he would receive a top-notch education and join the upper class, The Guardian reported.
During his time at university, Hitchens studied philosophy, politics and economics, but the more he learned, the angrier he became. Hitchens' disgust with racism and opposition to the Vietnam War led him to the political left. He would eventually join the International Socialists, a faction of the anti-Stalinist left, and participate in political protests against the war.
Attending college in the 1960s introduced Hitchens to a more hedonistic way of life as well. Although he eschewed drugs, Hitchens became both a heavy smoker and hard drinker. He claimed such practices supported his writing efforts. "Writing is what's important to me, and anything that helps me do that -- or enhances and prolongs and deepens and sometimes intensifies argument and conversation -- is worth it to me. So I was knowingly taking a risk," he said.
Writing was also the perfect outlet for him to enrage and enlighten. The British monarchy, Henry Kissinger and the Roman Catholic Church were just a few of his favorite targets in the 1970s. Despite being a bon vivant, Hitchens resolved to spend time at least once a year in "a country less fortunate than [his] own." As such, the early part of his career was dedicated to wandering the globe, reporting on the world's trouble spots and shining a light on those he considered cruel or evil, The New York Times reported.
After immigrating to the U.S. in 1981, Hitchens began writing for The Nation magazine. He would later edit and contribute articles to numerous publications, including Vanity Fair, the Atlantic Monthly, Slate, Harper’s, The Washington Post and The Huffington Post. His surprising advocacy for the war in Iraq, which was prompted by his growing conviction that radical elements in the Islamic world posed a danger to the West, gained Hitchens a wider readership, and in September 2005 he was named one of the "Top 100 Public Intellectuals" by Foreign Policy and Prospect magazines.
According to The Los Angeles Times, Hitchens penned two dozens books -- including "Letters To A Young Contrarian," "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" and "Hitch-22: A Memoir" -- and frequently made television and radio appearances. He also taught as a visiting professor at the University of California, Berkeley, the University of Pittsburgh and the New School of Social Research.
As a cultural pundit, Hitchens loved picking fights. He offered unsparing insight on a wide range of subjects, from politics to religion to his own his mortality, but was perhaps best known for his criticism of Mother Teresa, both in his 1994 documentary "Hell's Angel," and in Vanity Fair.
"[Mother Teresa] was not a friend of the poor," Hitchens said. "She was a friend of poverty. She said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction."
His negative portrayal of a woman many considered to be a saint prompted hundreds of readers to cancel their magazine subscriptions. And yet, after word of his death was reported, India's Missionaries of Charity order said it would pray for Hitchens' soul, despite his aggressive campaign against its Nobel prize-winning founder, AFP reported.
In 2008, amidst a nationwide discussion of "enhanced interrogation techniques, Hitchens decided to subject himself to a waterboarding treatment to see if it was truly a form of torture. He lasted for 16 seconds.
"It's annoying to me now to read every time it's discussed in the press -- or in Congress -- that it simulates the feeling of drowning," he said. "It doesn't simulate the feeling of drowning. You are being drowned, slowly."
Ever the contrarian, Hitchens adopted the U.S., warts and all, and took an oath of citizenship in 2007 on his 58th birthday. The ceremony was conducted by former President George W. Bush's homeland security chief, Michael Chertoff.
An outspoken atheist -- or as he preferred to be called, an antitheist -- Hitchens rallied many to a belief in rational thinking by describing organized religion as the main source of hatred and tyranny in the world, Reuters reported. In the final years of his life, he debated both religious and political figures about the nature of faith and the existence of God.
"Faith is the surrender of the mind; it's the surrender of reason, it's the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals," Hitchens said. "It's our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated."
Even after being diagnosed with cancer of the esophagus in 2010, Hitchens refused to turn to a deity or organized religion for comfort. He made it clear that if anyone ever claimed he had converted at the end of his life, it would be either a lie propagated by the religious community or an effect of the cancer and treatment that made him no longer himself.
"The entity making such a remark might be a raving, terrified person whose cancer has spread to the brain. I can't guarantee that such an entity wouldn't make such a ridiculous remark, but no one recognizable as myself would ever make such a remark," he said.
"There will never be another like Christopher. A man of ferocious intellect, who was as vibrant on the page as he was at the bar," said Vanity Fair editor Graydon Carter. "Those who read him felt they knew him, and those who knew him were profoundly fortunate souls."
Hitchens is survived by his wife, the writer Carol Blue, and three children.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1152786.html
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Muezzin
12-16-2011, 04:07 PM
No matter how much I disagreed with and disliked his views, I won't express pleasure at his passing. He was a man with a family.
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جوري
12-16-2011, 04:19 PM
So were the Iraqis that he advocated killing..
I freely express joy and may he rot in hell with his devils ameen
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جوري
12-16-2011, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Maryan0
Nope. Let's criticize away...
Salam
Love it.. I felt a joy permeate through my being, the same way they cheer for the death of Al'awlaqi or his kid whom they've killed without trial, at least the drunken bast*rd died of his own doing from liquor and smoking!
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Muezzin
12-16-2011, 04:24 PM
Um, I clicked Like when I meant to click reply to post.

Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
So were the Iraqis that he advocated killing..
Yes, they were.

I don't express joy at death, especially when the deceased are survived by family who may not share their views.

It was the same when one of Al Qaeda's infinite 'second in commands' were killed, and some troll wondered why people were not rejoicing.
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جوري
12-16-2011, 04:26 PM
Christopher Hitchens is known as much for his hard-drinking, chain-smoking lifestyle as he is for his controversial writings. But when asked by Charlie Rose if he regrets having burned the candle so thoroughly at both ends -- given that he has now been diagnosed with esophageal cancer -- Hitchens was adamant: absolutely not.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_685021.html
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جوري
12-16-2011, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Um, I clicked Like when I meant to click reply to post.


Yes, they were.

I don't express joy at death, especially when the deceased are survived by family who may not share their views.

It was the same when one of Al Qaeda's infinite 'second in commands' were killed, and some troll wondered why people were not rejoicing.
I respect your views akhi, I do.. but I am not going to apologize for feeling as I do & can't change it, and wish a similar and swift fate on the enemies of Islam and enemies of helpless people..

:w:
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Snowflake
12-16-2011, 04:37 PM
Good riddance too! How can any muslim have sympathy for him. He rejected Allah remember? ^o)

Hope his eternal torment has begun. Ameen!!!!!!!
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جوري
12-16-2011, 04:39 PM
another excerpt from the same article cited above:

"But you would do it again?" Rose asked.
"Yes, I think I would," Hitchens responded. "I've had to reflect on this, of course, a lot recently, and trying to imagine doing my life differently and not ending up mortally sick. But it's impossible for me to imagine having my life without going to those parties, without having those late nights...without that second bottle."

decisions made by the bottle and during partying doesn't a free thinker make in my book, it makes for a stuporous lout and I hazard think that's how they make all their decisions about the fates, religions and lives of others..

:w:
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Mikayeel
12-16-2011, 04:46 PM
:sl:

If a person is an enemy of islam, and not only that, he openly shows it. Doesn't it make sense for muslims to show joy when such an enemy is removed? I show joy for two reasons, one he is not amongst us no more, and secondly he is gone to his creator the best of judges.
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CosmicPathos
12-16-2011, 04:51 PM
Glad to see the man cross the "Land of Malady" into oblivion, at least from his perspective or that of his followers hes in oblivion.

Good riddance by Mother Nature I must say. But he did get a chance to spread his seed and have 3 (or 4?) kids who carry half of his genetic material. Would've been pleased if evolution and natural selection had completely purged our species off his genetic material.

Richard Dawkins must be sad today, one of his four horsemen have fallen, who is next? Hoping it is Sam Harris.
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Mikayeel
12-16-2011, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
No matter how much I disagreed with and disliked his views, I won't express pleasure at his passing. He was a man with a family.
:sl: akhee, but why wouldn't you show joy?? In all battlefields, if one side is victorious they show sign of joy that the enemy is defeated. Now think of this as a tactical battle, more media based. He is using the media to get his points across, eventually he got taken by the most certain thing in life DEATH. Which is indirectly a victory to us, one less enemy, right?
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جوري
12-16-2011, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Um, I clicked Like when I meant to click reply to post.
btw you can 'unlike' the same way you like, I respect your opinion and will not be offended if you take something back that was made in error. You've my word which I hold in highest honor that I'll not hold for you any contempt for doing so.
We're all entitled to feel as we do..

:w:
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جوري
12-16-2011, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
The whole idea of this thread is crass. And you're right, he's dead. That means he's no longer doing anything in this world
Actually when one is dead, deeds are cut off except for three: continuous charity, knowledge that benefits others, or a pious son/daughter who will pray for them."

In his case 'Knowledge' that is detrimental to others whether directly leading them astray from the righteous path a result of the delusions of his stupors or by obnoxious inflammatory and hateful speech that leads to illegal invasions against others. So I don't agree that he's no longer doing anything. Unfortunately with bad deeds the results are exponential and may it also be a source of torment on his soul..

:w:
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Muezzin
12-16-2011, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Mikayeel
:sl: akhee, but why wouldn't you show joy?? In all battlefields, if one side is victorious they show sign of joy that the enemy is defeated. Now think of this as a tactical battle, more media based. He is using the media to get his points across, eventually he got taken by the most certain thing in life DEATH. Which is indirectly a victory to us, one less enemy, right?
He was a human being who died of cancer, which meant he died slowly and in pain.

I know someone who died in a similar way (although it was not as a result of their own lifestyle as with Hitchens). I would never wish that on my worst enemy, whether it was self-inflicted or not.

There are also countless other human beings who also die every day, in pain, in starvation, killed by bombs or bullets. I would not be happy when a single one of those people died, regardless of their religion, gender, age or ethnicity, or whatever nonsense they might have spouted when they were alive.

I'm not mourning the guy. I'm just saying I don't express joy over a fellow human being's death, that's all.
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GuestFellow
12-16-2011, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by Maryan0
Nope. Let's criticize away...
Salam
Salaam,

Ah why? The man past away. I mean he might have relatives and friends who are really upset. Would we like it if an Islamic scholar died and the entire mainstream media began to critique him? It is not necessary.

Besides, if you want to question why atheists use the term, "R.I.P" when someone dies, you don't need to have Hitchens involved.
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جوري
12-16-2011, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Would we like it if an Islamic scholar died and the entire mainstream media began to critique him?
They do! they dam* people without trials and then the FBI comes knocking at your door claiming 'anti-American sentiment' for mourning those figures openly. I don't really care to take the 'high road' in this case.. Sometimes there's a thing in ones soul that needs to be satisfied.. If you read Suret Yusuf, you'll see that sometimes the soul needs satisfaction when wronged!

:w:
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GuestFellow
12-16-2011, 06:26 PM
Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
They do!

:w:
:wa:

Then we shall not stoop to their level.
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جوري
12-16-2011, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Then we shall not stoop to their level.
Some might opt for that and touba lahoum.. I am not taking the high road on this one and I shall rejoice the same when it's Pipes, Coutler, pamella Gellar's et. al. fate insha'Allah and may it be painful and soon!

ameen
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Mikayeel
12-16-2011, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
He was a human being who died of cancer, which meant he died slowly and in pain.

I know someone who died in a similar way (although it was not as a result of their own lifestyle as with Hitchens). I would never wish that on my worst enemy, whether it was self-inflicted or not.

There are also countless other human beings who also die every day, in pain, in starvation, killed by bombs or bullets. I would not be happy when a single one of those people died, regardless of their religion, gender, age or ethnicity, or whatever nonsense they might have spouted when they were alive.
:sl:

To be honest, i don't really care how he died, he had him self to blame for that. The end result is that he is dead, one less enemy to worry about. Fair enough you would not want to wish a painful death to your enemy, but in the sa7aaba days the life of an enemy would be taken in a battlefield, usually by a quick strike using a sword.

It is quite ironic that you mention people killed by bombs and bullets, yet it was Hitchens who openly supported the war on iraqis. No one would be happy if people die in poverty, hunger, lonely etc.... Regardless of their religion/race/ethic group etc... But thats not the reason why i show joy. I am pleased that he is not among us no more, its simple islams enemy = my enemy. Islams enemy = your enemy. Enemy gone = an act of joy !??

But in all truth akhee, this individual is hardly worth us getting into a discussion. He simply wasn't worth it. A low life who has departed!

:sl:
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Muezzin
12-16-2011, 06:49 PM
To clarify for the last time, I'm not mourning the guy. Nor am I jumping for joy over his death. It's really that simple.

People will feel they feel.
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Pygoscelis
12-16-2011, 07:20 PM
I disagree with but understand where Bluebell and some others are comeing from in the posts above, the man openly did express hositlity and celebrate the death of others, so I can see why she'd openly celebrate his death.

But these quotes just confirm all the negative stereotypes about muslims, and ironically make Hitchens' point for him from beyond the grave.

Good riddance too! How can any muslim have sympathy for him. He rejected Allah remember?

Hope his eternal torment has begun. Ameen!!!!!!!
You seriously hate the guy, have no sympathy for his suffering or death and wish him torment just because he "rejected Allah"? You are that tribal?

I'd understand Bluebell's type of thinking that he was wishing it on others so she's happy it happened to him, but this is just scary and its no wonder Hitchens formed the views about muslims that he did with this kind of rhetoric out there and so steadily pushed in threads like this.

Richard Dawkins must be sad today, one of his four horsemen have fallen, who is next? Hoping it is Sam Harris.
You are wishing death on Sam Harris now? Are you wishing death on me and all the other non-muslims here too? Should I be careful to hide my ISP when accessing this board?
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Pygoscelis
12-16-2011, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16212418

What I don't get is this:
Hitchens was as atheist as they come. But when he died, many including atheists wish him R.I.P. (rest in peace).
Well, he was an atheist and he believed there is nothing after death, so what's the "rest in peace" for?
And I am amused that atheists are also using the expression, wouldn't it contradict their belief?
This is a common question. Atheists also get asked this when saying "bless you" when somebody sneezes or saying "oh my god" when surprised or what have you. They often claim that this reveals a secret beleif in God held by the atheist saying it.

To that I ask does saying "holy cow!" make you a Hindu? Does "By Jove" make you pagan? It is just part of the culture and language. "Rest In Peace" is what you say when somebody dies and you want to honour their memory or express respect or shared sorrow at losing somebody when they die. It doesn't mean you actually believe they are out there somewhere resting peacefully in a meadow or something.
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CosmicPathos
12-16-2011, 07:30 PM
Hithcens died from pneumonia, pneumonia is not a "slow" death like cancer. You die in seconds/minutes due to hypoxia and ischemic organ damage.

Today shall we rejoice on death of those who said God is not Great, after all today it has been proven that God is indeed Great. Hitchens lost his battle to God.
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Pygoscelis
12-16-2011, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Today shall we rejoice on death of those who said God is not Great, after all today it has been proven that God is indeed Great. Hitchens lost his battle to God.
That or he just died, as we all eventually do, and it has nothing to do with God.
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جوري
12-16-2011, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But these quotes just confirm all the negative stereotypes about muslims, and ironically make Hitchens' point for him from beyond the grave.
We Muslims aren't out to dispel the stereotypes.. Decade long wars against Islam and Muslims tell us that no amount of 'Positive PR' is going to satisfy these people!

Sahih International
O you who have believed, do not take as intimates those other than yourselves, for they will not spare you [any] ruin. They wish you would have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you the signs, if you will use reason.
3:119 to top

Sahih International
Here you are loving them but they are not loving you, while you believe in the Scripture - all of it. And when they meet you, they say, "We believe." But when they are alone, they bite their fingertips at you in rage. Say, "Die in your rage. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of that within the breasts."

3:120 to top

Sahih International
If good touches you, it distresses them; but if harm strikes you, they rejoice at it. And if you are patient and fear Allah , their plot will not harm you at all. Indeed, Allah is encompassing of what they do.


Their psychology has already been revealed in the noble Quran millenniums ago, why should we attempt to know better than God and stand to his words an adversary? Furthermore, what exactly was Hitchens' point? My take home message is that stupor and chain smoking are A-Ok and he wouldn't have had it any other way.. No irony in that, it is just good for business.. well if you're in the business of medicine anyway..

best,

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جوري
12-16-2011, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That or he just died, as we all eventually do, and it has nothing to do with God.
Guess we'll have to wait for you to come back from the dead for that testimony to have some weightiness!

best,
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Salahudeen
12-16-2011, 08:23 PM
My Islamic History is a little rusty but weren't the Muslims ecstatic when the leaders of kufr like abu jahal were killed? I remember hearing that the prophet (saw) taunted him in his grave saying "did you find the promise of Allah to be true" I'm all for the attitude of not expressing joy at someone's passing, but when that someone is a enemy of Islam and a source of hate for Allah and Muslims then why shouldn't it be met with happiness, the Muslims were happy and glad when their oppressors who spoke badly of them in Makkah were killed, and this guy is similar in his verbal actions I think.

As for not knowing what's in a persons heart therefore not judging them, then Islam is based upon a person's actions, if a person prostrates to an Idol all day long can we say "he's not a mushrik because we don't know whats in his heart etc" if a person does other acts that take him out of Islam can we say "oh we shouldn't judge him cos we don't know what's in his heart" I don't think this is correct because we can apply this rule to everyone then and it becomes a justification for every wrong.
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Pygoscelis
12-16-2011, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
Furthermore, what exactly was Hitchens' point?
He kept pushing the claim that Islam and therefore muslims are insular, hateful, and often violent, and that "religion poisons everything". This is an image peaceful loving muslims have had to deal with very unfairly (as we saw at the start of this very thread). But then we have muslims here directly playing into Hitchens' claims, cheering for his death and hoping for Sam Harris' death, and the death of other non-muslims because they "reject Allah".
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جوري
12-16-2011, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
He kept pushing the claim that Islam and therefore muslims are insular, hateful, and often violent, and that "religion poisins everything". This is an image peaceful loving muslims have had to deal with very unfairly (as we saw at the start of this very thread). But then we have muslims here directly playing into Hitchens' claims, cheering for his death and hoping for Sam Harris' death, and the death of other non-muslims who "reject Allah".
The man was a drunk, he can say anything he wants. He said a mouthful of 'mother Theresa' He's just a sad drunken git, or rather was 'joy'-- Muslims can indeed be violent and hateful if their buttons are pushed and if war is declared upon and I'd venture to say, that it is the nature of anyone religion or sans religion under extreme duress. We're only here to please God not to appease a drunken Moron.. Again for the umpteenth time good riddance and may justice come fast and swift for his ilk!

best
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Salahudeen
12-16-2011, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
He kept pushing the claim that Islam and therefore muslims are insular, hateful, and often violent, and that "religion poisons everything". This is an image peaceful loving muslims have had to deal with very unfairly (as we saw at the start of this very thread). But then we have muslims here directly playing into Hitchens' claims, cheering for his death and hoping for Sam Harris' death, and the death of other non-muslims who "reject Allah".
But is he not a hypocrite then because many Muslims feel as if he is the one who initiated the hate relationship with his nasty words :hmm: if you walk down the street and someone says something nasty to you, and then you respond with something equally nasty back, does the one who initiated the exchange have a right to claim injustice? after all it was his nasty words that sparked the reaction in the person he was speaking too. :hmm:
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Muezzin
12-16-2011, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Salahudeen
But is he not a hypocrite then because many Muslims feel as if he is the one who initiated the hate relationship with his nasty words :hmm: if you walk down the street and someone says something nasty to you, and then you respond with something equally nasty back, does the one who initiated the exchange have a right to claim injustice? after all it was his nasty words that sparked the reaction in the person he was speaking too. :hmm:
Another option is not to dignify such nastiness with a response.
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جوري
12-16-2011, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Salahudeen
But is he not a hypocrite then because many Muslims feel as if he is the one who initiated the hate relationship with his nasty words if you walk down the street and someone says something nasty to you, and then you respond with something equally nasty back, does the one who initiated the exchange have a right to claim injustice? after all it was his nasty words that sparked the reaction in the person he was speaking too.
You wish it actually remained at a mere exchange of vitriol. We're talking mobilizing armies to kill a million + Muslim children alone not counting the rest, raped, murdered, falsely imprisoned, taken as body parts, taken for a thrill kill, taken for a voyeuristic object multiplied by all our regions.. You honestly expect me to say I am peaceful and loving after that or else I'll be thought of poorly? To hell a thousand times over with what they think!
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Salahudeen
12-16-2011, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Another option is not to dignify such idiocy with a response.
Now you're talking about an ideal world where people never let their emotions get the better of them, such people are rare.
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Muezzin
12-16-2011, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Salahudeen
Now you're talking about an ideal world where people never let their emotions get the better of them, such people are rare.
I didn't say it was an easy option.
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Salahudeen
12-16-2011, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I didn't say it was an easy option.
But staying quiet and not dignyfying them with a response is also not the way to go sometimes it depends, I mean look at the battle of Uhud when the Muslims were trapped in a cave with the prophet (saw) and I think it was Abu Sufyan who said, this day is ours or something along these lines, gloating, and then the prophet (saw) said "Dont just stand there quiet, say something back to him! then the companions shouted, "Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell fire".
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Salahudeen
12-16-2011, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
He kept pushing the claim that Islam and therefore muslims are insular, hateful, and often violent, and that "religion poisons everything". This is an image peaceful loving muslims have had to deal with very unfairly (as we saw at the start of this very thread). But then we have muslims here directly playing into Hitchens' claims, cheering for his death and hoping for Sam Harris' death, and the death of other non-muslims because they "reject Allah".
He kept pushing this claim but in reality he was just discriminating against a certain people, because such people with the attributes you mentioned exist in every race/religion, even athiests were rejoicing at the death of Osama and would often speak of their hatred for him and find Muslims to beat up.

Here's a celebration at the death of a man who wasn't given a trial. He should have fixed his own house up before he picked on others no??




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GuestFellow
12-16-2011, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Salahudeen
Now you're talking about an ideal world where people never let their emotions get the better of them, such people are rare.
Salaam,

Actually there are many people that I know do not respond to insulting comments.
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Salahudeen
12-16-2011, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

Actually there are many people that I know do not respond to insulting comments.
MashaAllah brother, there is also many people that I know who like to give as good as they get, but this is irrelevant to the point I was making, the point of that story was the following, the guy who responds back with as good as he gets can not be blamed or labelled as someone with hatred or any of those other attributes the other poster mentioned, because he's simply reacting back to the oppression that he's facing.

For the person who started the exchange to turn around and cry wolf is foolish because its his own fault for starting it. This is the point I was trying to get across, that it's unfair for the deceased to label muslims with all those attributes when they're simply reacting to the oppression that they see all around them.
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Muhammad
12-16-2011, 09:12 PM
:sl:

I don't know much about Hitchens, hence I will not say anything in this regard. But I think some of the comments in this thread have gone too far. We know in general that whoever dies as a disbeliever will be punished by Allaah (swt), however, it is not our place to speak about any specific person saying that they are definitely in Hell and so on, because we don't know what was in their heart at the end and how Allaah (swt) will Judge them (unless we have been told through the texts that an individual died upon kufr eg. the case of Fir'awn and others). We should leave the matter to Allaah (swt). Those scholars who said it is impermissible to curse a particular disbeliever or evildoer concerning whom there is no text stating that they are cursed, used the following as one of their evidences:
The report narrated by al-Bukhaari (4070) from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar, that he heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), when he raised his head from rukoo’ in the final rak’ah of Fajr prayer and said: “O Allaah, curse So and so, and So and so, and So and so,” after he had said, “Sami’a Allaahu li man hamdih, Rabbana wa laka’l-hamd.” Then Allaah revealed the words (interpretation of the meaning):

“Not for you (O Muhammad, but for Allaah) is the decision; whether He turns in mercy to (pardons) them or punishes them; verily, they are the Zaalimoon (polytheists, disobedients and wrongdoers)”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:128]

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/36674

Thus, it is safer for us to remain quiet than to say something which may be impermissible.

We Muslims aren't out to dispel the stereotypes.. Decade long wars against Islam and Muslims tell us that no amount of 'Positive PR' is going to satisfy these people!
The image of Islam that we give to others is very important, and thus dispelling stereotypes is of concern to us all. This is another reason why we should be careful about how we express our opinions on forums frequented by both Muslims and non-Muslims, such that we do not cause more harm than good. Allaah (swt) says, interpretation of the meaning:

Invite to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided. [An-Nahl: 125]

Da'wah is an important part of our deen and we have to do our best to reach out to all those that will listen in the hope that Allaah (swt) may guide them.

And Allaah (swt) knows best. I believe this thread has gone far enough. If I am mistaken in anything I have said, I am happy to be corrected through private message.

:threadclo
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Ramadhan
12-17-2011, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Besides, if you want to question why atheists use the term, "R.I.P" when someone dies, you don't need to have Hitchens involved.
To tell you the truth, this is the first time that I've seen self-identified atheists using "R.I.P."
Yes, I've seen many westerners or christians used the expression countless time before but I wasn't sure about their faith etc, and so I was honestly very very surprised to see in definite term first time that atheists used it for the death of another atheist in hitchens' death.
It wouldn't have made sense if I didn't mention Hitchens' death as I would certainly have been asked for proof and evidence by the atheists of this forum and also mentioning his death makes what I'm trying to say/ask clearer.
And as you've seen in this thread, I expressed neither joy nor sorrow at hitchens' death.
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Ramadhan
12-17-2011, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
To that I ask does saying "holy cow!" make you a Hindu? Does "By Jove" make you pagan? It is just part of the culture and language. "Rest In Peace" is what you say when somebody dies and you want to honour their memory or express respect or shared sorrow at losing somebody when they die. It doesn't mean you actually believe they are out there somewhere resting peacefully in a meadow or something.
I don't say "holy cow" and "by Jove" so I don't understand what you are trying to say.
And I think "holy cow" is from how jews created a golden calf and worship it, not from hindu.

From my understanding, "rest in peace" means (form wikipedia):

"Rest in peace" (Latin: Requiescat in pace) is a short epitaph or idiomatic expression wishing eternal rest and peace to someone who has died. The expression typically appears on headstones, often abbreviated as "RIP". The phrase or initialism is commonly found on the grave of Catholics,[1] as it is derived from the burial service of the Catholic Church, in which the following prayer is said at the commencement and conclusion:[2]
Anima eius et animae omnium fidelium defunctorum per Dei misericordiam requiescant in pace.

In English, it is rendered as[3]
May his soul and the souls of all the departed faithful by God's mercy rest in peace.


To satisfy a vogue for rhyming couplets on tombstones, the phrase has been parsed as:[4]
Requiesce
cat in pace


Originally in Hebrew in Isaiah (57, 2):
...will come in peace, and they will rest in their beds, he who goes straightforward.



So wouldn't it make more sense for an atheist to say to another atheist who's died something like "farewell into non-existence/oblivion/nothingness", instead of "rest in peace"?
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