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Pygoscelis
12-31-2011, 05:38 AM
Would you guys say that most folks on here represent the average level of observance amongst muslims? I ask because I always thought muslims were very strict, having known a few in real life who wore burka and everything. But today a woman I know, who is very liberal, so much so that she wore a bikini at a beach I went with her to, is a muslim, or claims to be one. I did a double take when I heard this. Can she truly be a muslim? She's from the Singapore area. Maybe they are some kind of super liberal offshoot of true Islam?
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ardianto
12-31-2011, 05:47 AM
I don't think she is a liberal Muslim. Liberal do not wear hijab, but I am not sure they will wear bikini in public area. I think she's just an "ID card Muslim", a Muslim who in her/his religion column in ID card is Muslim, but does not follow Islamic rule in daily life. There are many Muslim like this in Indonesia.
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~Zaria~
12-31-2011, 07:25 AM
What makes us a muslim?

Belief in the shahada: "I bear witness that there is no God except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is the Messenger of Allah"


and following the 5 pillars of Islam (including 5 daily prayers, fasting in the month of Ramadaan, annual charity to the poor and needy, pilgrimage to Mecca-once in a lifetime, to those who can afford it).

So, if a person can attest to the above - then he/ she is muslim.
If they say: 'I am muslim' - then they are....we should not be questioning their sincerity about their imaan.

Only Allah knows whats in their hearts, and He is the best of Judgers, Alhamdulillah (All praise is due to Allah.)

This does not mean that they do not sin, or follow practises that fall outside the teachings of Islam.

The way I see it - imaan/ faith can be considered an 'evolution' of the self.

Some attain very high levels of piety, very early in life and seemingly without much effort.
And some - face different trials and tribulations along the way.....and may reach this point much later in life.
And some, never attain taqwa (God-consciousness) at all.

But we should never judge these people/ look down on them.

For the greatest sinner (to you and me) today, may become the greatest Wallis and lovers of Allah (subhanawataála) and his prophet (peace be upon him) oneday.
They may have performed one act in this world that was so pleasing to Allah - that He enters them into paradise, even before one who thought himself to be nearer to Allah.


Also, to conclude:

Islam is PERFECT.
Muslims are not.

Salaam

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Ğħαrєєвαħ
12-31-2011, 08:54 AM
Greetings of peace

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Would you guys say that most folks on here represent the average level of observance amongst muslims? I ask because I always thought muslims were very strict, having known a few in real life who wore burka and everything. But today a woman I know, who is very liberal, so much so that she wore a bikini at a beach I went with her to, is a muslim, or claims to be one. I did a double take when I heard this. Can she truly be a muslim? She's from the Singapore area. Maybe they are some kind of super liberal offshoot of true Islam?
Well, there is only one Qur'aan and the teachings of the prophet Muhammad (p) which are part of Islam, and muslims are the followers.

There are unfortunately, individuals who are labeled so and so however do not abide by what they label themselves as, or either way they do not have certain knowledge, therefore they need to be taught.

If you were to ask, 'does Islam teach this?' or 'permit this', then your answer is no. Islam teaches modesty. I'm sure you've come across a number of bad apples in every society, doesnt mean they represent the whole of that society, in this case a muslim who goes around disrespecting others faith, doesnt necessarily mean that Islam teaches to be that way.

Not bothered about this 'liberal' business to be honest, either your practicing islam or either your not, however, nobody is to judge by getting angry and sticking it to people's face by calling them a kaffir or whatever it may be, it is advisable to advice them in the best of manners. Since you've been on this forum for a long period of time, i'm sure you'd know by now that Islam teaches modesty, to cover up etc, so maybe you could have atleast adviced her as it seems you were aware of this.

.. peace ..
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Yanal
12-31-2011, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
I don't think she is a liberal Muslim. Liberal do not wear hijab, but I am not sure they will wear bikini in public area. I think she's just an "ID card Muslim", a Muslim who in her/his religion column in ID card is Muslim, but does not follow Islamic rule in daily life. There are many Muslim like this in Indonesia.
My sentiments exactly,right on with this post brother. Not only in Indonesia but all around the world are Muslims who are just Muslims by name nor do they practise or attempt to follow Islam in any type of way. May Allah guide them all and us if we stray from our paths towards Jannah,ameen.
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Tyrion
12-31-2011, 10:03 AM
The woman you describe goes beyond even "liberal" Muslims, but we can't say anything about her spirituality (if or how often she prays, for example)... Although sometimes the outward can be an indication of the inward, this isn't usually the case. As for how this board represents Muslims as a whole and their level of observance, I'd have to say this board is a pretty poor example as it attracts some of the more practicing Muslims who go above and beyond what is necessary for an average Muslim, and sometimes more "strict" Muslims. (not saying that's a bad thing, just pointing out that it's not a good representation of the general Muslim population, especially the Muslims in Western lands.)
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Banu_Hashim
12-31-2011, 11:29 AM
It depends really. It varies from country to country and of course person to person. As you saw this particular 'Muslim' was not observant of Islamic dress code.

Very generally, I don't think the Muslims on this forum (ones who are observant and active in Islamic activities and gaining knowledge) represent the Muslims at large in the west. Unfortunately. Allahu 'Alam (God knows best).

Muslims in Muslim countries I would expect to be more observant. In fact I did witness this in Kuwait, when the athaan (call to prayer) goes EVERYONE walks out of their houses for salah (prayer). But Islam is made easy in a way in Muslim countries, a masjid (mosque) on almost every street corner, in shopping malls, islamic book shops, being immersed in Arabic and Islamic daily life etc.

The gift of Islam that most Muslim have, passed on to them by their parents, is sometimes not taken seriously either by a lack of tarbeeyah (education and nurturing) or their surroundings or just materialism in general.
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ardianto
12-31-2011, 11:40 AM
There is difference between liberal Muslim and ID card Muslim. Liberal Muslims actually are knowledgeable people in Islam, but they interpret Islam as they want. Irshad Manji is example of liberal Muslim. ID card Muslims are very lay Muslim, which their knowledge of Islam are very low.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-31-2011, 02:36 PM
I hate these titles, why do people keep using them? How can you be a liberal "submitter to Allaah"? Just say she's not observant on the levels of modesty or a certain aspect of Islaam, forget the titles :/. I find it's an insult to the word Muslim. I'll never utilize these terms, but that's just me.

Someone might notbwear hijaab but if at least a level of sincerity in your deen, your salaah or level of emaan would give u the idea that you can't dress that way...

No forum will completely represent Islaam....ESPECIALLY Muslims.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
12-31-2011, 07:05 PM
As'Salaam Alaaykum

Originally Posted by Tyrion
The woman you describe goes beyond even "liberal" Muslims, but we can't say anything about her spirituality (if or how often she prays, for example)... Although sometimes the outward can be an indication of the inward, this isn't usually the case. As for how this board represents Muslims as a whole and their level of observance, I'd have to say this board is a pretty poor example as it attracts some of the more practicing Muslims who go above and beyond what is necessary for an average Muslim, and sometimes more "strict" Muslims. (not saying that's a bad thing, just pointing out that it's not a good representation of the general Muslim population, especially the Muslims in Western lands.)
Can I ask what are some of the things that muslims on this board go above and beyond with? as I'm curious ..
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Pygoscelis
01-01-2012, 01:55 AM
I just wasn't aware that there were "ID card" muslims. It does make sense, just as there are "sunday" christians. She's the first I've met but perhaps that is simply because I don't meet many muslims. I don't live in Singapore (where she is from) or Indonesia as she does. When she told me she is muslim it surprised me very much to the point that I couldn't really find any words. Partly because I have feelings for her and was considering courting her and I have not yet told her I am an atheist. I'm a bit nervous to tell her now that I know she's a muslim, as I understand Islam forbids dating outside the faith.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-01-2012, 01:57 AM
^^Correction, marrying. no dating allowed :P lol
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Aprender
01-01-2012, 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
(not saying that's a bad thing, just pointing out that it's not a good representation of the general Muslim population, especially the Muslims in Western lands.)
Can you explain to me what the general Muslim population in Western lands is like? I'm just curious to know your perspective on this. I live in the West so I want to see if I am noticing the same things...
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ardianto
01-01-2012, 03:49 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I just wasn't aware that there were "ID card" muslims. It does make sense, just as there are "sunday" christians. She's the first I've met but perhaps that is simply because I don't meet many muslims. I don't live in Singapore (where she is from) or Indonesia as she does. When she told me she is muslim it surprised me very much to the point that I couldn't really find any words. Partly because I have feelings for her and was considering courting her and I have not yet told her I am an atheist. I'm a bit nervous to tell her now that I know she's a muslim, as I understand Islam forbids dating outside the faith.
"ID card" Muslim can date with anyone, but they will thinking 10 times before marry someone from other faith.

But marry an atheist?. To be honest, I am really not sure. I am sorry, buddy, I don't want to offend you, but this is honest opinion. I was one of them and I still live among them, I know how they are.
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Ramadhan
01-01-2012, 05:13 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
"ID card" Muslim can date with anyone, but they will thinking 10 times before marry someone from other faith.

But marry an atheist?. To be honest, I am really not sure. I am sorry, buddy, I don't want to offend you, but this is honest opinion. I was one of them and I still live among them, I know how they are
I agree.

Unless you are willing to take shahada (essentially becomeing a muslim), she will never marry you, even if she is not a practicing muslim.
However, you can take shahada just for the sake of getting married, which I see more and more muslim women are willing to do these days.
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Al-Mufarridun
01-01-2012, 05:31 AM
Originally Posted by Ramadhan

I agree.

Unless you are willing to take shahada (essentially becomeing a muslim), she will never marry you, even if she is not a practicing muslim.
However, you can take shahada just for the sake of getting married, which I see more and more muslim women are willing to do these days.
Sadly this is so true. There is an interesting video I recently watched on youtube about a guy who did this, took the shahada by mouth, just to marry a "muslim" girl. The amazing thing tho is that by the Qadr of Allah (swt), he started to learn more about Islam, and instead of learning from Muslims, he went to the sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah(biography of prophet Muhammad(pbuh). And as his heart began to change, his relationship with his wife changed, they divorced as he said in his words, 'he was some coming into islam and she was someone who was going out of Islam", He is now Alhamdulillah a Muslim scholar/Da'i.

This is a unique case, but majority of those relationships don't end well.
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Tyrion
01-01-2012, 06:05 AM
Actually, there are plenty of "Muslim" women who marry non Muslims. Trust me. It's a sad fact, but it's definitely true.
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Ramadhan
01-01-2012, 08:22 AM
I am truly feeling sorry for such women.
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ardianto
01-01-2012, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Actually, there are plenty of "Muslim" women who marry non Muslims. Trust me. It's a sad fact, but it's definitely true
Few of my friends were born from marriage like this. Usually they are Muslim, except one man who follow Christianity like his father.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-01-2012, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Actually, there are plenty of "Muslim" women who marry non Muslims. Trust me. It's a sad fact, but it's definitely true.
Yes that's an unfortunate truth!
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CosmicPathos
01-01-2012, 05:35 PM
I personally know few Pakistani well-educated women who have married kaafir men. Surprisingly all of the men happen to be either of French or Serbian/Irish/Canadian ancestry (none of them happens to be a black african american). All of these women have Islamic names, some are so-called liberal Muslims, other are ex-Muslims.

So this women that psygocells saw in bikini tanning on the beach might very well be okay with marrying an atheist, who knows.
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Pygoscelis
01-01-2012, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Actually, there are plenty of "Muslim" women who marry non Muslims. Trust me. It's a sad fact, but it's definitely true.
Well that is good to hear. I'll let you guys know how she reacts to me being an atheist once I tell her next week. We had a couple dates so far and I haven't told her yet, trying to feel out her degree of fundamentalism etc. I'm getting the feeling she is indeed muslim in name only and that the only difficulty I may have should we get serious will be her father. Her mother is pretty liberal from what I can tell and wasn't muslim before she met him.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-01-2012, 09:58 PM
^^LOL you would say that...not surprised at all. The last thing we want is a non muslim getting their hands on our women...but then again, those women leave themselves wide open on display...
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Rhubarb Tart
01-01-2012, 10:40 PM
LOL @ you saying this on Islamic forum
LOL @ you being so keen to update us
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CosmicPathos
01-01-2012, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
^^LOL you would say that...not surprised at all. The last thing we want is a non muslim getting their hands on our women...but then again, those women leave themselves wide open on display...
My feelings actually ...

@psygo:if it was not for Islam, I'd ask our younger non-practicing Muslim youth to hound down your atheist women and then break their hearts. Islam forbids me from motivating youth from doing that. I'll see you in hereafter. Even though she doesnt sound practicing, I hope she "rejects" you outright once you tell her you are an atheist. Do keep us updated on that though!
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Pygoscelis
01-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
My feelings actually ...

@psygo:if it was not for Islam, I'd ask our younger non-practicing Muslim youth to hound down your atheist women and then break their hearts. Islam forbids me from motivating youth from doing that. I'll see you in hereafter. Even though she doesnt sound practicing, I hope she "rejects" you outright once you tell her you are an atheist. Do keep us updated on that though!
Wow really? And here I was being all open and sharing. Was doing so because I thought the input of you people from the other side of the fence on this would be interesting. And it has been a good read.

I get where you are speaking from in the quote above though, you think I'm out to break her heart and corrupt her to evil ;D I can understand that. I'd probably feel the same if a fundamentalist was dating my sister or something. Perhaps best case scenario is what I suspect may the the truth, that she's not really a dedicated muslim at all and never was. Its just her father who may be a hurdle.

I'm still kind of shocked that somebody who wears bikinis would call themselves muslim. So not all muslims are strict about it. I wonder why I thought they were? Maybe that is the influence of media.

Anyway, thanks for your responses all.
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جوري
01-01-2012, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
was considering courting her and I have not yet told her I am an atheist.
Maybe you'll embark on a journey of truth together.
Godspeed..
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GuestFellow
01-01-2012, 11:49 PM
I really don't know.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-02-2012, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
My feelings actually ...

@psygo:if it was not for Islam, I'd ask our younger non-practicing Muslim youth to hound down your atheist women and then break their hearts. Islam forbids me from motivating youth from doing that. I'll see you in hereafter. Even though she doesnt sound practicing, I hope she "rejects" you outright once you tell her you are an atheist. Do keep us updated on that though!
Lol...deep feelings brother...=D
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Ramadhan
01-02-2012, 04:23 AM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
So this women that psygocells saw in bikini tanning on the beach might very well be okay with marrying an atheist, who knows.
It's possible.
But I assume that this girl who's pygoscelis has his eyes on is a malay (she's from singapore), and if her family is still in singapore then I would presume they would have to get married there, and unless her family is also very lax, he will have to take shahada be a muslim to get married there, even if it's just for a show.
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Ramadhan
01-02-2012, 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I'm still kind of shocked that somebody who wears bikinis would call themselves muslim. So not all muslims are strict about it. I wonder why I thought they were? Maybe that is the influence of media.
When you come to Indonesia (especailly in Jakarta, big cities and touristy areas), you see women who say they are muslims wearing almost nothing not only on the beach, but in the clubs, in the magazines, in the television, in the malls.T
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syilla
01-03-2012, 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I just wasn't aware that there were "ID card" muslims. It does make sense, just as there are "sunday" christians. She's the first I've met but perhaps that is simply because I don't meet many muslims. I don't live in Singapore (where she is from) or Indonesia as she does. When she told me she is muslim it surprised me very much to the point that I couldn't really find any words. Partly because I have feelings for her and was considering courting her and I have not yet told her I am an atheist. I'm a bit nervous to tell her now that I know she's a muslim, as I understand Islam forbids dating outside the faith.


you should show to her your surprise and what you are thinking and see her reactions and let her answer :)
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syilla
01-03-2012, 01:21 AM
In Malaysia you are not able to wear bikini in public even though you are tourist but usually in most island they just let it go. but beware you can get caught by the council or the police.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-03-2012, 08:39 PM
^^GOOD. shouldn't be allowed :s
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- Qatada -
01-04-2012, 08:23 PM
:salamext:


We shouldn't be encouraging this kind of thread, whether she is practising or not - she claims to be Muslim, and we should discourage what pygoscelis is saying.

If he does it, we can't stop him (and he is responsible for his own actions on Judgment Day). But we don't need these type of threads to survive on an Islamic forum.


So my request to mods would be to delete this thread.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-04-2012, 08:26 PM
:sl:

As well as many other threads that shouldnt be encouraged.

I hope you dont mean we're encouraging pygoscelis's nonsensical idea...>.<
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- Qatada -
01-04-2012, 09:51 PM
:salamext: I'm not saying the Muslims are encouraging it. But if Pygo is doing something against Islam, then it is sufficient for us to discourage him and to end the discussion. We don't need to know what the outcome of it will be. And we don't need to know the sins of another Muslim woman.
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GuestFellow
01-04-2012, 11:14 PM
Let's just address his points. The moderators/administrators decide whether a topic should be closed/deleted, not a member. Though you can PM mods/admins to advise them to close/delete a topic.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
01-05-2012, 12:19 AM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:salamext: I'm not saying the Muslims are encouraging it. But if Pygo is doing something against Islam, then it is sufficient for us to discourage him and to end the discussion. We don't need to know what the outcome of it will be. And we don't need to know the sins of another Muslim woman.
:sl:
I agree with you. We dont want him to approach any Muslim woman, regardless of how much or how little they practice. Although, no one is asking for the outcome, at least thats not what I see here. Also..we dont even know who she is or her name, nor do we need to. I wanna bash his head in through text, so he understands this...

















BACK OFF!


I mean it wholeheartedly....BACK OFF!


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Pygoscelis
01-05-2012, 06:15 AM
Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
I wanna bash his head in
Well now that's just lovely rhetoric right there. Maybe the thread should be closed before it turns into hate mongering.
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esperanza
01-05-2012, 11:18 AM
sister ..this is a heavy statement,,imagine now what kind of view he will have of some muslims,,,he asked a simple quesiotn to start,,and ixant blmae anyone saying that,,,you an go to amny places across asia and arab countries and find muslim women like that,,so he was just questioning why
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IslamicRevival
01-05-2012, 12:02 PM
The poster has asked a valid question and is seeking answers but as usual the Haram police come out in force and just have to condemn everything.

Pygoscelis, Let it be known, Islam is perfect in every sense but in today's society its easy for a Muslim to veer off track. Majority of Muslims are 'Observant', I guess its just the minority who are not as observant as they should be.
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~Zaria~
01-05-2012, 12:40 PM
Astagfirullah.

Its quite unbelievable how a thread that posed such a simple question has reached to this point.

Brothers and sisters,

When will we realise that it is not for us to judge others - be they muslims/ non-muslims/ atheists/ agonists?
Are we so perfect, and above error - that we can look at another who calls herself MUSLIM - and then label her?

Is this our duty?
Or is it our duty to advise/guide and teach others who have deviated from the commands of Allah and His rasul (sallahu alaihi wasalam)?

Im assuming that everyone here, has come from a flawless, sinless background.
That all our muslimahs here donned their hijabs as soon as they came of age.
That there is nothing in our pasts that makes us look back with regret.

Yes?

Then how do we know - that this woman may not have some life expierence in the future, that completely changes her mind-set, her imaan and taqwa?
That she may, perhaps, insha Allah, become a more observing muslim than any of us?
How do we know that we wont be faced with some trial that makes us completely lose our precious imaan?

We dont.

If you are reading this with imaan in your hearts - this is purely due to Allah (subhana'watala) MERCY upon you.
Nothing else.
You have no claim to be on the path that you are currently on......for in a second, He can remove His mercy - and send you back to ignorance.

Remeber:
Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 166

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed:
He who as in his heart the weight of a mustard seed of pride shall not enter Paradise.




And also, do realise, it is not our place to tell another to back off from our muslimahs.
This is the duty of her family.
At the end of the day - everyone makes their own choices in life, and are responsible for their own actions.....as in the case of this muslimah.


This thread is a very sad example of our ummah.... more-so from the responses here, than the actual story....

Salaam
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- Qatada -
01-05-2012, 12:52 PM
People who think Pygo doesn't know about Islam hasn't stayed on this forum long enough.

We have heard what he has said, and now that we've clarified for him that there are some people who are not fully practising Islam, and now that we have clarified for him that it is against the woman's own religion to date a guy outside of marriage - it should suffice. Why do we need to carry on the thread anymore after that? What is the purpose?
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ardianto
01-05-2012, 01:24 PM
Pygo knows about Islam through this forum. That's why he was surprised when he meet a Muslim woman who far from image of Muslim woman who he knows. That's why he's asking.
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Muhammad
01-05-2012, 04:10 PM
I agree with the concerns mentioned above - the thread has taken a strange course and is not helping anyone. We firstly want the best for this sister and pray for her guidance. We do not want her to perform any action that will take her further away from Allaah (swt). If we wish to discourage certain behaviour here, we should choose our words carefully. Some posts are simply outbursts of anger - and similiar ones have occurred elsewhere - they are doing more harm than good, in terms of reinforcing negative impressions of Muslims and having the opposite effect of what may have been intended. Instead of discouragement, some may even have given hope that marriage between an atheist and a Muslim is possible. Let us please consider the consequences of what we say before giving advice and input Insha'Allaah.

May Allaah (swt) forgive us for our sins, Aameen.

Thread closed.
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