ban on men in lingerie shops

[esperanza]

BBC

Women only to work in Saudi Arabia lingerie shops

By Emily Buchanan BBC world affairs correspondent

Saudi women will be served only by female staff in lingerie shops
Continue reading the main story Related Stories

• Saudi lingerie shop boycott call
• Saudi lingerie trade in a twist
• Saudi cleric in virginity warning

A law allowing only women to work in lingerie shops in Saudi Arabia is coming into force.
Campaigners hope this will end decades of awkwardness in the Islamic kingdom where women have always been served by male shop assistants.
The heated issue of the total lack of female shop workers in Saudi Arabia has simmered for years.
Many Saudi women say they have felt particularly uncomfortable buying their lingerie from men.
Female campaigners recently increased the pressure for change through a Facebook campaign and a boycott of lingerie stores.
Now King Abdullah's royal decree finally comes into effect, banning male staff from selling female underwear.
"It's about time, it's been a long struggle and the authorities have finally come to their senses," says Radio Jeddah journalist Samar Fatany.
She says she, and any woman who could afford to, would often shop abroad rather than face the embarrassment of giving her underwear size over the counter to a man.
The campaign has gained extra momentum from the increasing number of young women who want to enter the workplace.
The Saudi women who can work are usually the educated elite who do professional jobs in medicine or government.
The new law could potentially create up to 40,000 jobs for ordinary Saudi women who have hitherto had little or no access to employment.
But it also means that male clerks, most of whom are foreign workers, will be out of a job.
It is not far short of a social revolution being pushed through in the teeth of fierce opposition from the kingdom's top clerics.
They do not want to see an increase in the number of women working outside the home.
The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".
"There is already a growing tension between liberals and the religious conservatives in the country and this issue could provoke opposition from the religious police," says Abeer Mishkhas is a columnist for the Saudi paper Asharq al-Awsat.
The Ministry of Labour will be posting observers in shopping centres to make sure the new shop assistants do not get harassed in their first weeks of work.
The ban on male staff in lingerie departments is due to be extended to cosmetics shops from July.

[Ramadhan]

link please?

[~ Sabr ~]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/wor...-east-16412202

[ardianto]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/wor...-east-16412202

Thanks, sis.

But next time let the poster herself/himself insert the link. That's the poster's duty. That's what moderator means with "link please?"

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[~ Sabr ~]

I know what the Moderator meant, I thought I'd help out. I'm not daft. It's easy enough to find. Just copy and paste a sentence in google.

[ardianto]

Okay, let we start the discussion.

Women's underwear can cause wild fantasies in the minds of men who saw it. many people already know this.

That's why, I really wonder why Saudi ulama issued a fatwa which prohibiting women to sell lingerie and instead allow men to sell them. Didn't they know its effect on the man's mind?.

But if now the rule has been changed, Alhamdulillah.

[~ Sabr ~]

Women's underwear can cause wild fantasies in the minds of men who saw it. many people already know this.

^ That's common sense?

[ardianto]

^ That's common sense?

Not always, but ........... common.

[Aprender]

Heh. I always got a little bit uncomfortable in shops like this with men around before I was Muslim and I'm from the West. Over here in shops like this we usually find gay men working there along with women but it's still awkward even with them.

The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".

Heh. :exhausted

[~ Sabr ~]

The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".

Yeh this is one of the laws, including women cant drive, I find to be bull**** in Saudi.

[Marina-Aisha]

oh my! i couldnt go in a shop and i go to counter if a man in severing at the till, or if i want to know bout something bout wot im buying i would have to ask a man for assitance! wot if the man is thinking bad thoughts! im glad there seeing sense

[IslamicRevival]

Fair enough, it makes sense but why does the Grand Mufti oppose the ruling, how does employing a woman go against shariah law?

Whatever the answer, The Saudi government and its supporters need to be kicked out of power. They're sell outs, they issue 'Fatwa's' and rulings YET they themselves are going against Islamic law by co operating with the enemies of Islam and supporting the killing of Muslims all over the world

The worlds gone mad

[~ Sabr ~]

^^^ snap vision!!!

[aadil77]

puppet kings, puppet scholars what do you expect in such a country ?

[IslamicRevival]

The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".

Yeh this is one of the laws, including women cant drive, I find to be bull**** in Saudi.

The Mother of all believers, Hazrat Khadijah, May Allah be pleased with her! was a successful business woman. In light of this..How the grand Mufti has come to their conclusion its prohibited for women to work is dubious to say the very least

[ardianto]

The Mother of all believers, Hazrat Khadijah, May Allah be pleased with her! was a successful businesswoman. In light of this..How the grand Mufti has come to their conclusion its prohibited for women to work is dubious to say the very least

Those grand muftis said, Khadijah (ra) was not a Muslim when was working. But she never worked again after she became a Muslim.





Of Course, Khadijah (ra) was 55 when she became a Muslim and too busy to support her husband in her husband duty as Rasulullah.

[Rhubarb Tart]

:sl:

Good news! I hope they now give the jobs to women that need it!

[~Zaria~]

Assalamu-alaikum,


Hmmm.....these are interesting takes by everyone.....

Question:

There are ahadith pertaining to the minor signs of Al-Qiyamat, that refer to: trade becoming so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business, and women who will enter the workforce out of love for this world.

(if someone can reference these, I would really appreciate it :) )

What do you guys think now.....taking the ahadith into context?

Salaam

[GuestFellow]

Yeh this is one of the laws, including women cant drive, I find to be bull**** in Saudi.

Salaam,

No need to swear.

Anyway, hope those male assistants will have enough time to find new jobs.

[Galaxy]

As long as the woman works in a place with no haraam then can she work? How is supporting your family a crime? Some woman need to make a living!

Also I did a quick Google search on the hadiths concerning woman in the workforce and all I could find is that the hadiths are in book named "Ahmad".

[Mikayeel]

:sl:

Again, people lets not criticise knowledgable islamic scholars based on some non-islamic news reports findings.

To call those scholars puppets, just because 'BB freaking C' down talked them? I will only believe what the saudi scholars have to say on this matter if they personally said it to me, or if it came from a trusted islamic source. Other than said, allahu a3lm.

[syed_z]

There are ahadith pertaining to the minor signs of Al-Qiyamat, that refer to: trade becoming so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business, and women who will enter the workforce out of love for this world.

(if someone can reference these, I would really appreciate it )

Salaam Sister Zaria. I believe this hadith points towards Capitalist economic system in which a husband will have to take help from his wife and wife will have to leave their children and give him a helping hand because they took a loan on interest to do business.

Feminist Revolution also had a part to play in fulfillment of this hadith i believe.

[syed_z]

As long as the woman works in a place with no haraam then can she work? How is supporting your family a crime? Some woman need to make a living!

Also I did a quick Google search on the hadiths concerning woman in the workforce and all I could find is that the hadiths are in book named "Ahmad".

Asalaam O Alaikum...i have a book which says following....


"There is no decree in Islam which forbids woman from seeking employment whenever there is a necessity for it, especially in positions which fit her nature in which society needs her most. Examples of these professions are nursing, teaching (especially for children), and medicine. Some scholars like Imam Abu Hanifa and Al Tabari even held the opinion that a woman can hold a position of a judge even though there may be a tendency to doubt a woman's fitness for the post due to her emotional nature."

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext:

syed_z, please quote this book.

And for the sake of ending the ignorant bickering (as hardly anyone is coming forward with any Islamic evidence to prove otherwise), the following should suffice as a very brief and basic guideline to women working.

1 – The basic principle is that women should stay in their houses. This is indicated by the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance”

[al-Ahzaab 33:33]

Although this was addressed to the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), all believing women should follow them in that. It was addressed to the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) because of their honoured status and because they are the example for the believing women.

This is also indicated by the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Woman is ‘awrah, and when she goes out the Shaytaan gets his hopes up. She is never closer to Allaah than when she is in the innermost part of her house.” (Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan and Ibn Khuzaymah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, no. 2688.)

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning women praying in the mosques: “Their houses are better for them.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 567’ classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood).

2 – It is permissible for a woman to work or study so long as a number of conditions are met:

- That this work is suited to the nature and aptitude of women, such as medicine, nursing, teaching, tailoring and so on.

- The work should be in a place that is for women only, with no mixing between the sexes. It is not permissible for a woman to study or work in a mixed school.

- The woman should wear proper Islamic hijaab at work.

- Her work should not lead to her travelling without a mahram.

- Her going out to work should not involve her committing any sin, such as being alone with the driver, or wearing perfume where non-mahram men will be able to smell it.

- That should not lead to her neglecting her duties of looking after the house or taking care of her husband and children.


www.islamqa.com

Secondly, there is a difference in the ruling depending on the land a woman works in. Sometimes women may be encouraged to find jobs because this would benefit other Muslims, such as working in hospitals as doctors and other places. The shaykh's response is to the Muslim land that follows the shari'ah closer than any other place in the world. Therefore, he speaks to the Saudi women, the people's condition and dangers he knows best about because he lives there and not to the women worldwide.

Finally, I am confident that Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh is striving for the best interests of Islam and Muslims. He is not one who promotes injustice, endorses oppression or seeks to undermine women and their capabilities to contribute positively towards the community.

The BBC is bias against Islam and Muslims and if you seek to clarify the shaykh's stance then I suggest you find out all what he had to say about this issue, and not just a selected extract of his words to fit the purpose of the article.

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ إِن جَآءَكُمۡ فَاسِقُۢ بِنَبَإٍ۬ فَتَبَيَّنُوٓاْ أَن تُصِيبُواْ قَوۡمَۢا بِجَهَـٰلَةٍ۬ فَتُصۡبِحُواْ عَلَىٰ مَا فَعَلۡتُمۡ نَـٰدِمِينَ

O you who believe! If a Fasiq (liar — evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done. (Qur'an 49:6)

['Abd-al Latif]

As long as the woman works in a place with no haraam then can she work? How is supporting your family a crime? Some woman need to make a living!

Also I did a quick Google search on the hadiths concerning woman in the workforce and all I could find is that the hadiths are in book named "Ahmad".

Google is a search engine? Not an Islamic source. And it is most likely referring to the book of Imam Ahmed ibn Hambal – rahimullah.

[Beardo]

The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".

loooolll Really?!!! WHAT IS THIS. Can someone explain this to me please? This cannot be true. What the freak.

Edit: Nevermind, just read the above posts.

But quick question... it said no mingling of the genders. So a woman cannot work in the mall? How does that work?

[syilla]

^^^akhi you have to remember that not all fatwas applicable to every country :)

[CosmicPathos]

About time. But on another note, they have Victoria's Secret in Saudi? This keeps on getting interesting. Do they have Victoria's Secret in Makkah and Medinah as well?

[syilla]

actually you can see lots of lingerie shop by the road side there in the middle east. i remember watching a program the westerns are so surprise to see these. and the variety of the products can not be find anywhere else huhu

[CosmicPathos]

lol wow, who knew Bedouins can be kinky too.

[syilla]

additioanally i like to add hehe. i'm a kelantanese and you can see from where i come from, the ladies are mostly working at the market. men usually at the 'kedai kopi' oops, or working as fishermen or other kind of business.

kelantan and terengganu is famous for its batik design. but designs are different.

[Darth Ultor]

Hiring women is a crime prohibited by Islamic law? Does this cleric have a Quranic verse or a Hadith to back this claim up? If he's gonna start declaring something halal or haraam he better **** well have an original source to back it up. Otherwise, I am forced to dismiss him as big a liar as the May 21st guy.

[esperanza]

loooolll Really?!!! WHAT IS THIS. Can someone explain this to me please? This cannot be true. What the freak.

Edit: Nevermind, just read the above posts.

But quick question... it said no mingling of the genders. So a woman cannot work in the mall? How does that work?

well yes supoosedly no mingling of genders,,but for years women have to go to shops with men wokring into buy their clothes,,,whixh any modest woman would not like,,, so whats the differene if a woman now works there

and most malls are families only,,,so better having women or families buying from women than women having to buy form men..who are suually young single and many take chance to try and chat

[ardianto]

Lets we compare the old rule and the new rule.

-----------

Old rule: Only men who allowed to sell woman's lingerie. Women are not allowed.

Advantage
- Men get income.

Disadvantage
- Those woman's underwear could raise wild fantasy in minds of men who sell these underwear.
- The customers are women. Then those men and their female customers will talk about size of underwear. The inappropriate topic to discuss between man and woman who is not the mahram.

----------

New rule: Only women who allowed to sell woman's lingerie. Men are not allowed.

Advantage
- Those woman's underwear will not raise wild fantasy in minds of women who sell these underwear.
- There is no interaction with opposite gender. The sellers and the customers are women.
- Women get income.

Disadvantage
- Men lose their income.

----------

Which the better? ....... you decide.

[~Zaria~]

^ brother 'Abd-al Latif, the article that you have referenced holds much wealth with regards to this topic, JazakAllah for posting it.



I myself am a working sister (in the medical field), and Ive been giving this much thought....

If you were to ask most scholars - they will all agree that if women are to work, then they are preferred in the medical/ education/ nurturing type of roles - as is mentioned in the article.
And this makes perfect sense, Alhamduillah.


I do find difficulty in seeing women going out to work in business/ engineering, etc.....or what is considered as predominantly 'masculine fields'.
--> where the type of job does not provide a SERVICE that requires a woman to specifically leave her home.

You see, at the end of the day, the womens first and foremost priority in life is to her husband and family.
And while it IS permissible for women to work out of necessity, or as in the above mentioned examples - providing a much needed service to the community - we should not be ENCOURAGING this into other fields - and esp. where it is results in inter-mingling between the sexes.

The ahadith that I have referred to, I believe, also warns us of this:

--> Women helping their husbands in business.
I agree with bro syed_z, this can be due to our economic enviroment, debts, etc.
But often you will find a family-business - with the mothers, daughters, daughter-in-laws.....all involved in serving the customers, etc......simply to keep the wealth within the family, and not requiring to employ others into these roles.
And this has indeed become a common trend.

--> Women who will enter the workforce out of love for this world.
Now, consider the role of a women selling lingerie.
Is it an absolute necessity that she leaves her home, and kids - to do this?
I think not.....

Is this not yet another example of entering the workforce for 'the love of the world'?

Just something to think about......

As I have mentioned, i do not posess the actual references to these ahadith, and I hope someone can help out here, insha Allah.
They are quoted widely in many books pertaining to the last days, as well as talks - eg by the late Anwar Awlaki, etc.....so Im quite sure they are sound ahadith.


Salaam

[~Zaria~]

^ I just want to add to the above,

that if a woman is working out of necessity (i.e she does not have a husband/ mahram to support her; to feed her kids; etc) - then, Alhamdulillah - this is fine.....that she goes out to work, observing full hijab and doing her best to limit her interaction between the sexes.

I do not wish to generalise to all women, and I realise that everyone faces their own challenges in life.

My point to this is simply, that we should not be ENCOURAGING women to work in these fields - as if she is entitled to do so.

At the end of the day - we should not forget our primary roles and duties in life.


Salaam

[syilla]

Lets we compare the old rule and the new rule.

-----------

Old rule: Only men who allowed to sell woman's lingerie. Women are not allowed.

Advantage
- Men get income.

Disadvantage
- Those woman's underwear could raise wild fantasy in minds of men who sell these underwear.
- The customers are women. Then those men and their female customers will talk about size of underwear. The inappropriate topic to discuss between man and woman who is not the mahram.

----------

New rule: Only women who allowed to sell woman's lingerie. Men are not allowed.

Advantage
- Those woman's underwear will not raise wild fantasy in minds of women who sell these underwear.
- There is no interaction with opposite gender. The sellers and the customers are women.
- Women get income.

Disadvantage
- Men lose their income.

----------

Which the better? ....... you decide.

lol i don't think you can do these summaries it has lots more of factors.

first you have to remember their culture are different than us. that saudi girls mostly are pampered and the men worked hard and they are used to work without the wives help to support them. and they gave everything to the women. thats why some fathers are very choosy when choosing bride for their daughters.

[ardianto]

the ladies are mostly working at the market. men usually at the 'kedai kopi' oops, or working as fishermen or other kind of business.

Good quip. Yes, that's a bad habit of (some) Melayu men. ;D

Just like in Indonesian who also Melayu race. There are stupid husbands who order their wives to work while they relax in Kedai Kopi, drink coffee and smoking cigarette.

No wonder in ulama in Indonesia issued a fatwa: Obligation to make money for the family is only for husbands, not for wives.

['Abd-al Latif]

^ brother 'Abd-al Latif, the article that you have referenced holds much wealth with regards to this topic, JazakAllah for posting it.



I myself am a working sister (in the medical field), and Ive been giving this much thought....

If you were to ask most scholars - they will all agree that if women are to work, then they are preferred in the medical/ education/ nurturing type of roles - as is mentioned in the article.
And this makes perfect sense, Alhamduillah.


I do find difficulty in seeing women going out to work in business/ engineering, etc.....or what is considered as predominantly 'masculine fields'.
--> where the type of job does not provide a SERVICE that requires a woman to specifically leave her home.

You see, at the end of the day, the womens first and foremost priority in life is to her husband and family.
And while it IS permissible for women to work out of necessity, or as in the above mentioned examples - providing a much needed service to the community - we should not be ENCOURAGING this into other fields - and esp. where it is results in inter-mingling between the sexes.

The ahadith that I have referred to, I believe, also warns us of this:

--> Women helping their husbands in business.
I agree with bro syed_z, this can be due to our economic enviroment, debts, etc.
But often you will find a family-business - with the mothers, daughters, daughter-in-laws.....all involved in serving the customers, etc......simply to keep the wealth within the family, and not requiring to employ others into these roles.
And this has indeed become a common trend.

--> Women who will enter the workforce out of love for this world.
Now, consider the role of a women selling lingerie.
Is it an absolute necessity that she leaves her home, and kids - to do this?
I think not.....

Is this not yet another example of entering the workforce for 'the love of the world'?

Just something to think about......

As I have mentioned, i do not posess the actual references to these ahadith, and I hope someone can help out here, insha Allah.
They are quoted widely in many books pertaining to the last days, as well as talks - eg by the late Anwar Awlaki, etc.....so Im quite sure they are sound ahadith.


Salaam

Very, very valid points. Mashaa'Allah. You hit the nail on the head.

['Abd-al Latif]

Hiring women is a crime prohibited by Islamic law? Does this cleric have a Quranic verse or a Hadith to back this claim up? If he's gonna start declaring something halal or haraam he better **** well have an original source to back it up. Otherwise, I am forced to dismiss him as big a liar as the May 21st guy.

I suggest you look up who he is. I have posted a brief biography of the shaykh on the Biography section here. He is a man of knowledge and a scholar and I doubt highly that he, just like any other scholar, would endorse his own opinion over that of the Qur'an and Sunnah.

[Darth Ultor]

Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working.

[ابن آل مرة]

:sl:

Again, people lets not criticise knowledgable islamic scholars based on some non-islamic news reports findings.

To call those scholars puppets, just because 'BB freaking C' down talked them? I will only believe what the saudi scholars have to say on this matter if they personally said it to me, or if it came from a trusted islamic source. Other than said, allahu a3lm.

:w:

Jazak Allahu khayran. Agreed akhi, at same time let's not forget that there ARE puppet scholars in Saudi. Everyone knows the treachery of the Madaakhila.

As for men selling these things, I don't know how any husband would tolerate a random person selling this kind of stuff to their wives. Best option is online. Next best, is women salesman completely covered, with maximum privacy.

The old women driving issue..let me just say it is an issue. I believe the scholars are doing what they think it's best for women of this Ummah, so yes I am against women driving.

*Wears the ignore feminist shield*

[Jedi_Mindset]

Wow Masha'Allah Sis Zaria you just have said what i wanted to say :)

[Darth Ultor]

They have to be completely covered in Saudi Arabia. It's the law

[Darth Ultor]

:w:
The old women driving issue..let me just say it is an issue. I believe the scholars are doing what they think it's best for women of this Ummah, so yes I am against women driving.

*Wears the ignore feminist shield*

What is masculine about driving a car? Men cause accidents too. Heck, look at a country like the US. Most drunk drivers are men. I'd feel just as safe with a woman on the road at night as I would with a man. Women should be the ones selling women's clothing. Think what could happen. Impure thoughts for male salesmen and possible victimizing of women.

['Abd-al Latif]

I have to be completely covered in Saudi Arabia. It's the law

And the law they are enforcing is in harmony with the Islamic law: the command to observe the veil. It's not oppression over there nor is it oppression for every other Muslim woman who understands the Islamic Law and observers the veil willingly.

Oppression is in France, forcing Muslim women to take off their veils because they don't like it, as well as in Denmark and other EU countries.

[Darth Ultor]

Oops. I mean "they". Sorry, I was half asleep

[~Zaria~]

:w:

The old women driving issue..let me just say it is an issue. I believe the scholars are doing what they think it's best for women of this Ummah, so yes I am against women driving.

*Wears the ignore feminist shield*

Wa-alaikumosalam brother,

With regards to the Saudi ruling on women driving (yes - I'll call it a 'Saudi ruling' because thats what it is.....) - I would have no problem with it, if I could find some evidence from Quraan and Sunaah that prohibited women driving.

In fact, its pretty absurd to be:

- Firstly making haraam, that which, for all intents and purposes is halaal (taking into account the distance limitations of travel without a mahram).

- and in doing so - enabling even more Haraam to occur!

How does it suddenly become permissible for a woman to be alone in the car with a non-mahram driver?
Is not the 3rd party in that car - Shaytaan?

It truly goes beyond logic, in my opinion.......


Im not wishing to side-track this thread into another discussion......but if anyone can provide some sort of evidence for the driving laws in Saudi - i would love to hear them.
(or insha Allah direct me to a place where we can read more on this :) )



Ps. bro Ahmed M - you can remove your 'ignore feminist shield' now......that wasnt so bad now, was it? lol :)

Salaam

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext: sis Zaria

The ruling on the driving ban was by Shaykh Ibn Baaz rahimullah. I've posted his ruling previously somewhere on the forum, I'll find it and paste it here.

[Rhubarb Tart]

No actually provided proof from Sunnah or Quran about women forbidden to work outside medicine, education blah blah! Zaria! You managed to helped yourself, oh I work in medicine, so I am okay but sisters that work else where are not okay?

You are ALL so bias. I work outside medicine, education etc, and I will continue to do so!


btw there are a lot of women that are begging in the street of Saudi Arabia! IF they allow them to apply these jobs, it may help a lot of family out of poverty!

Urgh I hate this forum so much!

[ابن آل مرة]

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
People have spoken a great deal in the al-Jazeerah newspaper about the issue of women driving cars. It is well known that it leads to evil consequences which are well known to those who promote it, such as being alone with a non-mahram woman, unveiling, reckless mixing with men, and committing haraam actions because of which these things were forbidden. Islam forbids the things that lead to haraam and regards them as being haraam too.
Allaah commanded the wives of the Prophet and the believing women to stay in their houses, to observe hijab and to avoid showing their adornments to non-mahrams because of the permissiveness that all these things lead to, which spells doom for society. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salaah (Iqamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey Allaah and His Messenger. Allaah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet), and to purify you with a thorough purification”
[al-Ahzaab 33:33]
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed”
[al-Ahzaab 33:59]
“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful”
[al-Noor 24:31]
And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No man is alone with a (non-mahram) woman but the Shaytaan is the third one present.”
Islam forbids all the things that may lead to immorality or accusations of immoral conduct made against chaste women, who never even think of anything touching their chastity, and it has stipulated a punishment for that which is one of the most severe of punishments, in order to protect society from the spread of the causes of immorality.
Women driving is one of the means that lead to that, and this is something obvious, but ignorance of the rulings of sharee’ah and the negative consequences of carelessness with regard to the things that lead to evil – as well as diseases of the heart that prevail at present – and love of permissiveness and enjoying looking at non-mahram women all lead to indulging in this and similar things, with no knowledge and paying no attention to the dangers that it leads to. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Say (O Muhammad): (But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are Al-Fawaahish (great evil sins and every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse) whether committed openly or secretly, sins (of all kinds), unrighteous oppression, joining partners (in worship) with Allaah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allaah of which you have no knowledge”
[al-A’raaf 7:33]
“and follow not the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan). Verily, he is to you an open enemy”
[al-Baqarah 2:168]
And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I am not leaving behind me any fitnah more harmful to men than women.”
It was narrated that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The people used to ask the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about good things, but I used to ask him about bad things, fearing that I would live to see such things. I said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, we were in a state of ignorance (jaahiliyyah) and evil, then Allaah sent us this good (i.e., Islam). Will there be any evil after this good?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘Will there by any good after that evil?’ He said, ‘Yes, but it will be tainted.’ I said, ‘How will it be tainted?’ He said, ‘(There will be) some people who will guide others in a way that is not according to my guidance. You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of others.’ I said, ‘Will there be any evil after that good?’ He said, ‘Yes, there will be people calling at the gates of Hell, and whoever responds to their call, they will throw them into it (the Fire).’ I said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, describe them to us.’ He said, ‘They will be from among our people, speaking our language.’ I said, ‘What do you command me to do if I live to see such a thing?’ He said, ‘Adhere to the jamaa’ah (group, community) of the Muslims and their imaam (leader).’ I asked, ‘What if there is no jamaa’ah and no leader?’ He said, ‘Then keep away from all those groups, even if you have to bite (eat) the roots of a tree until death overtakes you whilst you are in that state.’” Agreed upon.
I call upon every Muslim to fear Allaah in all that he says and does and to beware of fitnah and those who promote it. He should keep away from all that angers Allaah or leads to His wrath, and he should be extremely cautious lest he be one of these callers to Hell of whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) tells us in this hadeeth.
May Allaah protect us from the evil of fitnah and its people, and protect this ummah from the evil of those who promote bad things. May He help the writers of our newspapers and all the Muslims to do that which pleases Him and may He set the Muslims straight and save them in this world and in the Hereafter, for He is Able to do that.
Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 3/351-353.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen was asked: I hope you can explain the ruling on women driving cars. And what is your opinion on the idea that women driving cars is less dangerous than their riding with non-mahram drivers?
The answer to this question is based on two principles which are well known among the Muslim scholars:
The first principle is: that whatever leads to haraam is itself haraam. The evidence for this is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allaah, lest they insult Allaah wrongfully without knowledge”
[al-An’aam 6:108]
So Allaah forbids insulting the gods of the mushrikeen – even though that serves an interest – because it leads to insults against Allaah.
The second principle is: that warding off evil – if it is equal to or greater than the interests concerned – takes precedence over bringing benefits. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“They ask you (O Muhammad) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit”
[al-Baqarah 2:219]
Allaah has forbidden alcohol and gambling even though there is some benefit in them, so as to ward off the evils that result from them.
Based on these two principles, the ruling on women driving should be clear, because women driving includes a number of evils, including the following:
1 – Removal of hijab, because driving a car involves uncovering the face which is the site of fitnah and attracts the glance of men. A woman is only regarded as beautiful or ugly on the basis of her face, i.e., if it is said that she is beautiful or ugly, people only think in terms of her face. If something else is meant it must be specified, so that one would say that she has beautiful hands or beautiful hair or beautiful feet. Hence it is known that the face is the focal point. If someone were to say that a woman can drive a car without taking off her hijab, by covering her face and wearing dark glasses over her eyes, the answer to that is that this is not what really happens when women drive cars. Ask those who have seen them in other countries. Even if we assume that this could be applied initially, it would not last for long, rather the situation would soon become as it is in other countries where women drive. This is how things usually develop; they start out in an acceptable fashion then they get worse.
2 – Another evil consequence of women driving cars is that they lose their modesty, and modesty is part of faith as is narrated in a saheeh report from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Modesty is the noble characteristic that befits the nature of women and protects them from being exposed to fitnah. Hence it is mentioned in a metaphorical sense (in Arabic), in the phrase “more modest than a virgin in her seclusion.” Once a woman’s modesty is lost, do not ask about her.
3 – It also leads to women going out of the house a great deal, but their homes are better for them – as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said – because those who love to drive enjoy it very much, hence you see them driving around in their cars here and there for no purpose, except to enjoy driving.
4 – You may find a divorced woman going where she wants, whenever she wants and however she wants, for whatever purpose she wants, because she is alone in her car, at any time she wants of the day or night. She may stay out until late at night. If people are complaining about this with regard to young men, then what about young women, going all over the place the length and breadth of the country, and maybe even beyond its borders.
5 – It is a means of women rebelling against their families and husbands; at the least provocation they may go out of the house and drive in the car to wherever they think they can get some peace, as happens in the case of some young men, who are able to put up with more than women.
6 – It is a cause of fitnah in many places: when stopping at the traffic lights, or at gas stations, or at inspection points, or when stopped by policemen at the scenes of traffic infractions or accidents, or if the car stalls and the woman needs help. What will her situation be in this case? Perhaps she may come across an immoral man who takes advantage of her in return for helping her, especially if her need is great to the point of urgency.
7 – When women drive it leads to overcrowding in the streets, or it deprives some young men of the opportunity to drive cars when they are more deserving of that.
8 – It causes fitnah to flourish because women – by their nature – like to make themselves look good with clothing etc. Do you not see how attached they are to fashion? Every time a new fashion appears they throw away what they have and rush to buy the new things, even if it is worse than what they have. Do you not see the adornments that they hang on their walls? In the same way – or perhaps more so – with the cars that they drive, whenever a new model appears they will give up the first for the new one.
With regard to the questioner asking, “And what is your opinion on the idea that women driving cars is less dangerous than their riding with non-mahram drivers?” – what I think is that both of them involve danger, and one is more serious than the other in some ways, but there is no necessity that would require one to do either of them.
Please note that I have answered this question at length because of the controversy that surrounds the issue of women driving cars, and the pressure faced by conservative Saudi society, which is striving to adhere to its religious commitment and morals, to allow women to drive cars.
This would be nothing strange if it were to come from an enemy who seeks to cause harm this land which is the last bastion of Islam that the enemies of Islam wish to penetrate. But what is even stranger is that this is coming from our own people who speak our language and live under our banner, people who are dazzled by what the kaafir nations have of material advancement and admire their ways which are devoid of any moral restrictions.
End quote from Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen.

رحمهم الله

Nuff said. Now if you do not live in Saudi, and you are a woman, stop complaining.

[syilla]

lol ukhti relax..this is only a forum lets respect others opinion and fatwas. InshaAllah probably next time it'll be another perspective.

[IslamicRevival]

The Scholars who currently pull the strings in Saudi Arabia, in my opinion are not to be relied upon. Personally, Ive never followed them and nor will i ever in a million years take their 'Fatwa's' seriously.

Truth is, The ROOTS of 'Saudi' Arabia are corrupt and only Allah knows what strings they are pulling behind the scenes.

[CosmicPathos]

No actually provided proof from Sunnah or Quran about women forbidden to work outside medicine, education blah blah! Zaria! You managed to helped yourself, oh I work in medicine, so I am okay but sisters that work else where are not okay?

You are ALL so bias. I work outside medicine, education etc, and I will continue to do so!


btw there are a lot of women that are begging in the street of Saudi Arabia! IF they allow them to apply these jobs, it may help a lot of family out of poverty!

Urgh I hate this forum so much!

The proof was given from Quran where Allah says to wives of Prophet to stay at home. What more proof you want?

[Rhubarb Tart]

The proof was given from Quran where Allah says to wives of Prophet to stay at home. What more proof you want?

Well, that would include so called women working in medicine and education. Or wait, it that necessity? What is necessity? Is there any proof from Sunnah or Quran that that define what necessity is? And necessity for whom? for society or her own well being?

Like I said there issnt anything banned a woman from owning her own business for example IF that does not affect her responsibilities to her own family! She just happens to take on more responsibilities!

[CosmicPathos]

yes, you are right about the exceptions being made for women to work in certain fields. Why are ppl including women in medicine. I dont buy the argument "its in their nature." Till 50 years ago, men were doing medicine as efficiently as it is done today. I say ban em all! (sarcasm on banning)

There are 80% females in my class and 20% males. Is it because more females are applying? Or is it because feminist establishment gives preference to females in post-modern world? My school writes she before he as in she/he. I still continue to write he/she. Come and burn me on stake!

[syilla]

subhnallah i think there is already a thread on working woman. i think it is not our place to make fatwa for every woman in this world. all the muftis and the scholars from all over the world need to have meetings and discussion to come for a conclusion. i think this thread can be closed now.

['Abd-al Latif]

No actually provided proof from Sunnah or Quran about women forbidden to work outside medicine, education blah blah! Zaria! You managed to helped yourself, oh I work in medicine, so I am okay but sisters that work else where are not okay?

You are ALL so bias. I work outside medicine, education etc, and I will continue to do so!


btw there are a lot of women that are begging in the street of Saudi Arabia! IF they allow them to apply these jobs, it may help a lot of family out of poverty!

Urgh I hate this forum so much!

No one is arguing that women cannot and should not work. No one ever argued that women are no good in work places. And finally no one is critical of a woman's capabilities at work whether it's to do with knowledge, skill, capacity or ability!

The point here is where men and women should work and how best to follow the Islamic etiquette, seeing as men and women are not equal but we are even. We worship Allah the same but women are excused during menses, men give the dowry for marriage whereas women never do this. Certain things are specifically singled out for men and vice versa, hence we are not equal but we are even.

No one will Islamically forbid women outright from working as bulky, masculine builders, cut throat judges (judge Judy?) and to serve in the front lines for military because for those women who have no other option but to choose these occupations will be left for dead! "Men understand" (an oxymoron, eh?) that they need an income. The rulings that the scholars give are specific to those women who have an option to choose their field of work. But for those who prefer otherwise then the accountability is on your own head.

In case you don't like the rulings issued by the male inheritors of the Prophet's, seek advice from a female scholar and she'll tell you the same.

[Rhubarb Tart]

I know couple of women who went aboard to Saudi Arabia to be physiotherapists and occupational therapists. And guess what? They are not even Muslims! It is the same with a lot of Arab countries.

One of them wanted to do research there, but she wasn’t allowed to speak to the men. But she was confused because those same men allowed her to touch their legs during treatment!

I am not advocating mixing unless it is necessary! Just a fair society where women can run women swimming pool for example and men can run men swimming pool, women can run women clothing shops and men can run their own clothing shops! Etc etc

[Rhubarb Tart]

No one is arguing that women cannot and should not work. No one ever argued that women are no good in work places. And finally no one is critical of a woman's capabilities at work whether it's to do with knowledge, skill, capacity or ability!

The point here is where men and women should work and how best to follow the Islamic etiquette, seeing as men and women are not equal but we are even. We worship Allah the same but women are excused during menses, men give the dowry for marriage whereas women never do this. Certain things are specifically singled out for men and vice versa, hence we are not equal but we are even.

No one will Islamically forbid women outright from working as bulky, masculine builders, cut throat judges (judge Judy?) and to serve in the front lines for military because for those women who have no other option but to choose these occupations will be left for dead! "Men understand" (an oxymoron, eh?) that they need an income. The rulings that the scholars give are specific to those women who have an option to choose their field of work. But for those who prefer otherwise then the accountability is on your own head.

In case you don't like the rulings issued by the male inheritors of the Prophet's, seek advice from a female scholar and she'll tell you the same.

My point is women are already banned to have certain jobs like military, judges and leader of a country in Islam! BUT they are not banned to becoming scientists, business women, cleaners or any other job outside Education and Medicine! Why dont you ask a scholar whether a woman can become a Scientists or cleaner?

[~Zaria~]

No actually provided proof from Sunnah or Quran about women forbidden to work outside medicine, education blah blah! Zaria! You managed to helped yourself, oh I work in medicine, so I am okay but sisters that work else where are not okay?

You are ALL so bias. I work outside medicine, education etc, and I will continue to do so!


btw there are a lot of women that are begging in the street of Saudi Arabia! IF they allow them to apply these jobs, it may help a lot of family out of poverty!

Urgh I hate this forum so much!

Assalamu-alaikum sister,

Please calm down.

It truly is not my intention to insult or disparage anyone here - so I apologise if it seems that way.

What I have stated is in line with the rulings of many muftis (as has been posted by brother 'Abd-al Latif ) - its not just a personal opinion.

Also, no one has said it is 'haraam' to work in other fields.
It is simply advised that as far as is possible - women should not seek employment in these sorts of fields (and there is wisdom behind this.....)

And I do realise that many women have no option but to work - out of pure necessity......that they are somewhat forced to go out and work alongside men - to put a plate of food on the table each day.

Hence my second post:

^ I just want to add to the above,

that if a woman is working out of necessity (i.e she does not have a husband/ mahram to support her; to feed her kids; etc) - then, Alhamdulillah - this is fine.....that she goes out to work, observing full hijab and doing her best to limit her interaction between the sexes.

I do not wish to generalise to all women, and I realise that everyone faces their own challenges in life.

My point to this is simply, that we should not be ENCOURAGING women to work in these fields - as if she is entitled to do so.

At the end of the day - we should not forget our primary roles and duties in life.


Salaam

However: if employment is not out of necessity (i.e a women has a husband/ mahram that is supporting her) and not out of serving a vital need in the community (where it is preferably performed by a female).......then I ask: why are we leaving the safety of our homes, our roles as full-time wives and mums to go out and work?

So that we feel 'liberated'?

If only we can remember: a womens most important responsibilty is towards her husband and family.
Everything else takes 2nd place to this.

(And this applies to myself as well, (if i find myself in marriage one day, insha Allah) - even though i am in a 'nurturing' field).

Salaam

[Rhubarb Tart]

Give me proof where Islam says women are banned from owning her own business, becoming a cleaners or becoming a scientists! Btw just like some men are not cut out to teachers, some women are also not cut out to be teachers either!

Some are have the skills and intelligence to scientist, some want to own their extra income and feel they are not capable of being a teacher, doctor etc BUT they are able to work as cleaner! Who the hell are you or anyone else to tell them they shouldn’t?

['Abd-al Latif]

My point is women are already banned to have certain jobs like military, judges and leader of a country in Islam! BUT they are not banned to becoming scientists, business women, cleaners or any other job outside Education and Medicine! Why dont you ask a scholar whether a woman can become a Scientists or cleaner?

You're stilling missing my point.

Is there a need for them there?

The discussing of leaders in Islam has already preceded once before. It is Islamically forbidden for women to be leaders in such a position.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Ill asks you something, when you want to go a swimming pool. Who is going to be your lifeguard?


When you want to go aboard with your husband or brother, who will carry out your security check?


When you want to go to the gym and want to have a trainer? Who will train you?

When you want to but some clothes or measured for some clothes, who will assist you and measure you?


When you want to eat outside in restaurant in women section, who will serve you?

Who will do those things for you in Islamic society?

A man or woman! Btw NOTICE how these jobs are not necessity or any nature field of a woman!

[Jedi_Mindset]

You simply can't understand don't you?

What Sis zaria means is that women shouldn't be out of their home without protector, a women can indeed start a own clinic or company, but best is not far from home. And she needs to OBEY yes OBEY her husband. For a wife- jannah lays under your husbands feet. If her husband is right, she needs to obey him.

And now regarding to jobs, women aren't supposed to work in areas with mixed genders. this is simply to prevent fitnah as shaytaan is always the one who can ruin it. for a women its best to start her business at home or atleast close by. to prevent going out alone, or mixing with other genders.

['Abd-al Latif]

Thread closed on a temporary basis.

I will only reopen this thread if the original poster requests it to be reopen. Until then, relax.

I want every single contributor of this thread to see what each one of us is trying to say as opposed to what you want to see.

In the mean time:

Attachment 4522

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext:

I hope everybody had a kit-kat, a well deserved break and is now ready to turn over a new leaf and start fresh. The thread has been re-opened upon the thread starter's request.

In case any sisters feel a rush of excitement upon seeing this thread re-opened, they should prick themselves with the pins from their hijab to keep calm and brothers should borrow the hijab pins from their (blood) sisters if they feel the same. I've got an impatient finger hovering over the big, scary red button for anyone who turns sour.

Keep calm people and behave yourselves!

[GuestFellow]

You simply can't understand don't you?

What Sis zaria means is that women shouldn't be out of their home without protector, a women can indeed start a own clinic or company, but best is not far from home. And she needs to OBEY yes OBEY her husband. For a wife- jannah lays under your husbands feet. If her husband is right, she needs to obey him.

And now regarding to jobs, women aren't supposed to work in areas with mixed genders. this is simply to prevent fitnah as shaytaan is always the one who can ruin it. for a women its best to start her business at home or atleast close by. to prevent going out alone, or mixing with other genders.

:sl:

The workplace has gone safer, depending on where you live. So a women can open her own business without worrying about being in danger. It is not about how far you have to travel. It is about the method of transport. Using a car is much safer than using public transport which is used by men and women (of course, this is debatable). Besides, both men and women can be in danger and this risk will always exist.

All jobs, in some ways require to communicate with the opposite gender. I have female clients calling me and I simply have to address their concerns. As long as you get the job done and do not have any sort of relationship with the opposite gender, then your fine.

Overall, what your suggesting is not practicable now. What we need is practicable solutions.

[GuestFellow]

Is there a need for them there?

Salaam,

Yes, we need female business leaders to deal with female customers.

[CosmicPathos]

:sl:

The workplace has gone safer, depending on where you live. So a women can open her own business without worrying about being in danger. It is not about how far you have to travel. It is about the method of transport. Using a car is much safer than using public transport which is used by men and women (of course, this is debatable). Besides, both men and women can be in danger and this risk will always exist.

All jobs, in some ways require to communicate with the opposite gender. I have female clients calling me and I simply have to address their concerns. As long as you get the job done and do not have any sort of relationship with the opposite gender, then your fine.

Overall, what your suggesting is not practicable now. What we need is practicable solutions.

I dont think its only about female's safety. Even though work environemnts are safer, is shaytan safer and less devilish too? The point is you cant work in mixed environment as a female or as a male. So one should back out, and that is females, since males are by nature made to work and earn in society.

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

Give me proof where Islam says women are banned from owning her own business, becoming a cleaners or becoming a scientists! Btw just like some men are not cut out to teachers, some women are also not cut out to be teachers either!

Some are have the skills and intelligence to scientist, some want to own their extra income and feel they are not capable of being a teacher, doctor etc BUT they are able to work as cleaner! Who the hell are you or anyone else to tell them they shouldn’t?

I agree.

We need female business leaders to deal with female customers and even boost the economy.

It is simply advised that as far as is possible - women should not seek employment in these sorts of fields (and there is wisdom behind this.....)

What wisdom are we speaking of here? Which fields are you referring to?

However: if employment is not out of necessity (i.e a women has a husband/ mahram that is supporting her) and not out of serving a vital need in the community (where it is preferably performed by a female).......then I ask: why are we leaving the safety of our homes, our roles as full-time wives and mums to go out and work?

In the UK, it is generally safe to leave your house.

[/QUOTE]
So that we feel 'liberated'?[/QUOTE]

This has nothing to do with being liberated. For some women, sitting at home all day is boring. If they have useful skills, then why not use it? Many Muslim women are using their talents to help their community.

Overall, yes married women should look after their husband and children. If they have the time, if it is safe to travel and the husband grants permission, then they should be allowed to work.

[GuestFellow]

I dont think its only about female's safety. Even though work environemnts are safer, is shaytan safer and less devilish too? The point is you cant work in mixed environment as a female or as a male. So one should back out, and that is females, since males are by nature made to work and earn in society.

Salaam,

Again what you are suggesting is impracticable. There are going to be instances when men and women will mix, like in hospitals. For example, I was working at a law firm and we needed a specialist to help our client. The only specialist that was available happened to be a women. My firm needed her services and so we asked her to write a report. There was no male specialist available that would be able to help our firm. We cannot abandon our client, otherwise...we'll get sued. ;D

Islam has a dress code. As long as men and women cover up, that's fine. If they are not covered up, lower your gaze.

I'm aware the Shaytan is finding ways to make people commit sins. He will find new ways to achieve this. This will always be the case, even in an Islamic state. That does not mean women are not allowed to work. Who is going to serve female customers?

[CosmicPathos]

Again what you are suggesting is impracticable. There are going to be instances when men and women will mix, like in hospitals. For example, I was working at a law firm and we needed a specialist to help our client. The only specialist that was available happened to be a women. My firm needed her services and so we asked her to write a report. There was no male specialist available that would be able to help our firm. We cannot abandon our client, otherwise...we'll get sued.

Well that is valid and I understand that but such cases are exactly the reason why we should make it more practical and have more male specialists so that such mixing can be prevented in the future by providing specialist services of same gender. :S

[GuestFellow]

Well that is valid and I understand that but such cases are exactly the reason why we should make it more practical and have more male specialists so that such mixing can be prevented in the future by providing specialist services of same gender. :S

How? Are you going to launch a campaign to persuade for men to specialise in particular areas? What if this does not work?

[CosmicPathos]

How? Are you going to launch a campaign to persuade for men to specialise in particular areas? What if this does not work?

Why wont it work? Financial incentives, economy is down, everyone is willing to do anything as long there is $ in it. Are there any jobs in the world that men dont do? Except pregnancy. ooh, even that was done by a man.

[Salahudeen]

In Islam the burden of providing falls upon the man so I think when there's not enough jobs to go round for everyone, men should be given priority over women for jobs, unless the woman is happy to forfeit her right to be provided for :hmm:

Because the man requires the job/salary in order to get married so he can provide for his family, but what would the woman require the salary for? is she required to support a family financially? that's the logic behind it.

And give all the jobs that involve interacting with females on a regular basis to women specifically. Make those jobs not even available to men.

Also there could be an entire sector for female jobs such as nurse, beautician, and other sectors that were specifically for men. But this would involve separating jobs into two categories, male jobs and female jobs, and someone would have to define which is which lol.


there's my whacky theory ;D

[Darth Ultor]

Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working and the daughter has finished her education.

[GuestFellow]

Why wont it work? Financial incentives, economy is down, everyone is willing to do anything as long there is $ in it. Are there any jobs in the world that men dont do? Except pregnancy. ooh, even that was done by a man.

Salaam,

Do you think most men will be eager to work as a midwife?

I never said it will not work. I said, what if it does not work. For example, you can launch a campaign persuading men to work in health care. However, this may not work because some men would rather work in engineering or accounts. There is no guarantee this will work for several reasons such as failing to pass medical exams, not having enough experience, to expensive or other areas may be seen as more profitable and stable.

I'm just saying, you have no alternative plan. If it does work, great. Now you got to make men specialise in other areas to like law, accounts, actuarial, insurance, financial advise, fashion, marketing, administration, education and I can go on forever.

The point is there will always be some areas dominated by a particular gender. As long as this exists, free mixing at the workplace will exist. Some areas, free mixing will be required more than others.

[Darth Ultor]

Can somebody please answer me?

[Salahudeen]

Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working and the daughter has finished her education.

Yeah, my theory could only apply to married individuals :p i.e a married woman applies for a job, and a non married man applies for the job, priority is given to the man.

Or a complete segregation of jobs based on gender, i.e only women can apply to be nurses and other female jobs, and only men can apply to join the army and other male jobs. That could work maybe :hmm:

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

In Islam the burden of providing falls upon the man so I think when there's not enough jobs to go round for everyone, men should be given priority over women for jobs, unless the woman is happy to forfeit her right to be provided for

:hmm:

I agree that the man should work and provide for his family. However, I disagree men should be given priority over women for jobs. The person that should get the job should be the most qualified.

Because the man requires the job/salary in order to get married so he can provide for his family, but what would the woman require the salary for? is she required to support a family financially? that's the logic behind it.

Not all women can get married due to variety of reasons. Some need more time while others cannot seem to find the right husband. During that time, they need to make a living to meet their financial commitments. She would be required to support herself and a family.

[GuestFellow]

Here is what I propose.

Men and women should both be allowed to work. Women cannot join the military or become the leader of the country. Those are my restrictions and are supported by Islamic scholars.

Men must work, except if they are suffering from an illness, disability and so on. The state in this case should provide financial support.

Women are allowed to work but require their husband's permission. This can be agreed prior to marriage. The other conditions is she must be able to look after her family and it is safe to work. If the women is not married, she will need her family's consent. If the women is not married and has no family, the state should provide and can decide for herself she is allowed to work.

Men cannot work where goods and services provided are specifically targeted at women. Women cannot work where goods and services provided are specifically targeted at men.

Free mixing is permissible as long as it is necessary and everyone covers up.

And everyone lives happily ever after.

[Salahudeen]

Salaam,

:hmm:

I agree that the man should work and provide for his family. However, I disagree men should be given priority over women for jobs. The person that should get the job should be the most qualified.



Not all women can get married due to variety of reasons. Some need more time while others cannot seem to find the right husband. During that time, they need to make a living to meet their financial commitments. She would be required to support herself and a family.

Yeah I thought of that after, that's why it would only apply to married women verse unmarried men. If a un-married man and un-married woman apply then they would be treated equal.

But if un-married man applies and married woman applies, then give the man priority, because he could need the job to get married and provide for his family where as the woman has a provider if she's married and the husband is doing what he should be doing.

Also could the state not provide for the un-married women? Maybe a tax on all jobs that goes directly to un-married women. Just an idea :p

A job is a salary, that opens the door for a man to get married, because he will be able to provide for a family then, if men are not working they will not be able to get married, if they are not able to get married then there will be no next generation :p

A job for a woman is money that she can use to buy stuff, but it wouldn't facilitate marriage unless she agreed to marry a guy without a job and be his provider. Or give her job to the man she plans to marry so that he can use the salary to provide for her.

['Abd-al Latif]

Salaam,

Yes, we need female business leaders to deal with female customers.

I wasn't talking about business leaders, I was talking about women in the army and in positions of leadership over a country. Judges? Maybe. But it's still something I would personally discourage, especially in today's world.

As I mentioned in my post earlier I have no problem with women working, as long as men and women do the kind of jobs that is more suited to their gender.

Whenever I go out and see in a hospital, school or other places and see a sister working it really puts a smile to my face to see that she is doing something she enjoys while practising her religion freely. But it's not the same when a woman who works as a builder because her physique resembles a man - big and bulky. The same goes for men who are overly feminine because of their work, it's sickening.

[joyous fairy]

I think this is a good move.

A lot of women are probably looking for jobs in female-dominated places but not getting anywhere because there arent any. Some arent qualified enough to work in professional jobs and this can give those women the chance. They could look at the background of the woman so they know if she really needs the job or not. At least then it is likely to be more fair.

I dont understand why people would think its not a good idea.

['Abd-al Latif]

Tragic Typos, are you married?

I'm asking this personal question just because I believe being married will determine your answer. Married men are far more cautious and see things in a much clearer light, it's why many don't like their wives to work unless its needed.

I don't see how women working is going to 'boost the economy'. Maybe more people will be making money but I fail to see the boost.

['Abd-al Latif]

Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working and the daughter has finished her education.

Women working is not prohibited in Islam. It's where they work that determines what is and isn't forbidden, same goes for men.

[joyous fairy]

You guys seem to be missing the fact that NOT ALL WOMEN ARE MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS. NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE MEHRAM.

Edit: Sorry about that I was testing the font :P

[Salahudeen]

You guys seem to be missing the fact that NOT ALL WOMEN ARE MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS. NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE MEHRAM.

Edit: Sorry about that I was testing the font :P

Yeah, that's why there would be a special fund for women without mehrams. :p maybe even a female organisation of women that takes care of women without mehrams. I wish there was some kind of game where you could create your own country and stuff that'd be fun testing all this out lol.

[CosmicPathos]

Salaam,

Do you think most men will be eager to work as a midwife?

I never said it will not work. I said, what if it does not work. For example, you can launch a campaign persuading men to work in health care. However, this may not work because some men would rather work in engineering or accounts. There is no guarantee this will work for several reasons such as failing to pass medical exams, not having enough experience, to expensive or other areas may be seen as more profitable and stable.

I'm just saying, you have no alternative plan. If it does work, great. Now you got to make men specialise in other areas to like law, accounts, actuarial, insurance, financial advise, fashion, marketing, administration, education and I can go on forever.

The point is there will always be some areas dominated by a particular gender. As long as this exists, free mixing at the workplace will exist. Some areas, free mixing will be required more than others.

Is not that a contradiction? A woman gives birth. So a midwife should be a female, not a male, in order to prevent mixing of genders. Hello brother, is it the weekend? :p

[joyous fairy]

Yeah, that's why there would be a special fund for women without mehrams. :p maybe even a female organisation of women that takes care of women without mehrams. I wish there was some kind of game where you could create your own country and stuff that'd be fun testing all this out lol.

Would be? So there isnt one now? Sorry I dont know much about Saudi.

Even so, there would need to be women in that organisation to check if the women are legible ey?

You should make that game :p

[Salahudeen]

Out of curiosity, in an Islamic state, would it be allowed to tax people? I know the 2.5% would come out for zakat but would it be permissible to apply additional taxes for public services? If not how would public services such as Police force, Fire service, Ambulance/health service be provided?

['Abd-al Latif]

Would be? So there isnt one now? Sorry I dont know much about Saudi.

Even so, there would need to be women in that organisation to check if the women are legible ey?

You should make that game :p

Is a mahram needed for a woman to work? I thought she needed one for marriage and to travel. Can you back this up with a hadeeth to prove this?

[IslamicRevival]

Why wont it work? Financial incentives, economy is down, everyone is willing to do anything as long there is $ in it. Are there any jobs in the world that men dont do? Except pregnancy. ooh, even that was done by a man.

Maybe in dreamland :)

[joyous fairy]

Is a mahram needed for a woman to work? I thought she needed one for marriage and to travel. Can you back this up with a hadeeth to prove this?

Back what up??

[Salahudeen]

Would be? So there isnt one now? Sorry I dont know much about Saudi.

Even so, there would need to be women in that organisation to check if the women are legible ey?

You should make that game :p

No there isn't one now lol, this is all a theory of mine that perhaps looks good on paper but hasn't been tested out in real life I think. Yeah there would need to be women, it would only be a female organisation and only women would be allowed to apply to work for it. Because the nature of the job would involve interacting with women on a daily basis.

[GuestFellow]

Yeah I thought of that after, that's why it would only apply to married women verse unmarried men. If a un-married man and un-married woman apply then they would be treated equal.

But if un-married man applies and married woman applies, then give the man priority, because he could need the job to get married and provide for his family where as the woman has a provider if she's married and the husband is doing what he should be doing.

Also could the state not provide for the un-married women? Maybe a tax on all jobs that goes directly to un-married women. Just an idea :p

I don't know...I'm a little confused LOL.

I wasn't talking about business leaders, I was talking about women in the army and in positions of leadership over a country. Judges, maybe, but it's still something I would personally discourage, especially in todays world.

Well I agree with you there.

As I mentioned in my post earlier I have no problem with women working, as long as men and women do the kind of jobs that is more suited to their gender.

Like what?

Tragic Typos, are you married?

No.

I'm asking this personal question just because I believe being married will determine your answer. Married men are far more cautious and see things in a much clearer light, it's why many don't like their wives to work unless its needed.

I don't need to be married to see things in a clearer light. BTW, do you have evidence to support what I put in bold?

I don't see how women working is going to 'boost the economy'. Maybe more people will be making money but I fail to see the boost.

Let's assume we have a country. We'll call it Lala Land. 50% of the population are male, 40% is female, and the 10 percent are IB members...

So women make a significant proportion of the population. More people work, the more people the government can tax and the revenue the government gets will be used to provide more and effective social services. More people work, the more people have money to spend. The more people buy goods and services, firms will make profit, demand for goods and services will rise and more jobs will be created to meet this high demand.

^ It's not as simple as that, but I hope you get the idea.

[Darth Ultor]

Out of curiosity, in an Islamic state, would it be allowed to tax people? I know the 2.5% would come out for zakat but would it be permissible to apply additional taxes for public services? If not how would public services such as Police force, Fire service, Ambulance/health service be provided?

The Caliphate had taxes even in the old days. I know because the Jews were allowed to live there and practice religion as long as they paid taxes.

[Salahudeen]

Let's assume we have a country. We'll call it Lala Land. 50% of the population are male, 40% is female, and the 10 percent are IB members...

So women make a significant proportion of the population. More people work, the more people the government can tax and the revenue the government gets will be used to provide more and effective social services. More people work, the more people have money to spend. The more people buy goods and services, firms will make profit, demand for goods and services will rise and more jobs will be created to meet this high demand.

^ It's not as simple as that, but I hope you get the idea.

Yes that is very good, if the demand is there I don't see why not, i.e the total population in la la land is 100 which consists of 50 males and 50 females, the number of jobs available in la la land is 100, so there is more than enough jobs to go around for all the men, there is no worry of them not being able to get married because they can't find a job, they all get married because they can all find jobs and they have kids and produce a wonderful generation :p and the women can fill in the extra 50 jobs that exist in la la land :p

[GuestFellow]

Is not that a contradiction?

You tell me. :p:

I believe my views are fairly consistent...at times. O_o

[GuestFellow]

Yes that is very good, if the demand is there I don't see why not, i.e the total population in la la land is 100 which consists of 50 males and 50 females, the number of jobs available in la la land is 100, so there is more than enough jobs to go around for all the men, there is no worry of them not being able to get married because they can't find a job, they all get married because they can all find jobs and they have kids and produce a wonderful generation
:p and the women can fill in the extra 50 jobs that exist in la la land :p

There will always be demand for something. You will not have a day where all human beings and IB members in La La Land not drink water or eat food.

I highly doubt there will be a time where the population of both men and women will be the same. O___O

['Abd-al Latif]

Like what?

Oh I don't know: mechanics, builders/steeplejacks, personal body guards? Things like that. This is just an example but of course there are many other fields like these.

I don't need to be married to see things in a clearer light. BTW, do you have evidence to support what I put in bold?

What I meant by married men seeing things in a clearer light is the protective jealousy they feel for their wives. Men don't ever actually boast to women, "Oh I get to go out and spend time outside while you get to stay home all the time." inciting women to go out and about. No, men are far more protective of their wives and understand the dangers that lie outside the home. A man would hate to see another man conversing with his wife, spending time with her or making her laugh and this will be even more so intense when previously she has been protected in her home and he never had to worry about such things. A man's world is his wife, and what shatters this world is another man entering into it.

Unmarried people, as expected, don't feel such a level of jealousy because they have anyone to feel this jealousy for. Hence their views are far more immature because of their inexperience.

Let's assume we have a country. We'll call it Lala Land. 50% of the population are male, 40% is female, and the 10 percent are IB members...

So women make a significant proportion of the population. More people work, the more people the government can tax and the revenue the government gets will be used to provide more and effective social services. More people work, the more people have money to spend. The more people buy goods and services, firms will make profit, demand for goods and services will rise and more jobs will be created to meet this high demand.

1) I went to Saudi and I saw a lot of women selling things like hijabs on the streets or goods on a cart (of course there were more occupations than these). The money they made was some-what sufficient for themselves and their family and it doesn't seem to have boosted the economy a noch.

2) I don't have to imagine such a scenario, you see this in the western world and the result of it is the news worrying about how men and women prefer to stay single and chase careers instead.

[Salahudeen]

What do people think of segregating jobs based upon gender? i.e only women can become nurses/beauticians and other jobs that are female dominated, only men can become mechanics, and other jobs that are male dominated. And jobs that aren't dominated by either gender i.e officer/admin worker, then when the organisation is set up it has to say what gender organisation it is, if it says male it can only employ males, if it says female, it can only employ females.

And every organisation has to register with the government, and the government keeps a note of the number of organisations that are female/male and enforces a policy where it balances the number out. :p

[joyous fairy]

What do people think of segregating jobs based upon gender? i.e only women can become nurses/beauticians and other jobs that are female dominated, only men can become mechanics, and other jobs that are male dominated. And jobs that aren't dominated by either gender i.e officer/admin worker, then when the organisation is set up it has to say what gender organisation it is, if it says male it can only employ males, if it says female, it can only employ females.

And every organisation has to register with the government, and the government keeps a note of the number of organisations that are female/male and enforces a policy where it balances the number out. :p

Good idea but there will be problems with that, especially deciding what jobs should be for males and what for females.

People will protest!

['Abd-al Latif]

You guys seem to be missing the fact that NOT ALL WOMEN ARE MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS. NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE MEHRAM.

Edit: Sorry about that I was testing the font :P

I was talking about this. Unless I mistakenly understood you to mean that mahrams are needed for work?

[GuestFellow]

What I meant by married men seeing things in a clearer light is the protective jealousy they feel for their wives. Men don't ever actually boast to women, "Oh I get to go out and spend time outside while you get to stay home all the time." inciting women to go out and about. No, men are far more protective of their wives and understand the dangers that lie outside the home. A man would hate to see another man conversing with his wife's, spending time with her or making her laugh and this will be even more so intense when previously she has been protected in her home and he never had to worry about such things.

Unmarried people, as expected, don't feel such a level of jealousy because they have no one to feel this jealousy for.

You don't have to be married to experience jealously. You can have a guy who likes a girl but is walking with another guy on the street. This guy gets jealous because the girl is taken.

1) I went to Saudi and I saw women selling things like hijabs on the streets or goods on a cart. The money they made was some-what sufficient for themselves and their family and it doesn't seem to have boosted the economy a noch.

It's not about looking at individual cases. You look at the situation as a whole.

Let's assume all women in the UK decided that they are not going to work. I'm certain this will affect the economy in a negative way. In Saudi Arabia, let's assume more and more women are working. They are bringing more money to the family, allowing them to spend, which means firms make more profit, thus creating more jobs.

2) I don't have to imagine such a scenario, you see this in the western world and the result of it is the news worrying about how men and women prefer to stay single and chase careers instead.

That's not necessarily true. Some women want to get married and have children. Not all are so career orientated. Though I agree, some women would put their careers first over their family or attempt to balance both commitments.

[GuestFellow]

Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working and the daughter has finished her education.

Her father should work. I assume she would need permission from her dad to work.

Can somebody please answer me?

:/

['Abd-al Latif]

You don't have to be married to experience jealously. You can have a guy who likes a girl but is walking with another guy on the street. This guy gets jealous because the girl is taken.

Again, not necessarily. Once you build a history with another person, the feelings of protectiveness grow ever more stronger. Just 'liking' someone isn't the same as being married and having children, and then seeing another man taking notable interest in your wife, especially in the work place where people are comfortable talking to one another.

[joyous fairy]

I was talking about this. Unless I mistakenly understood you to mean that mahrams are needed for work?

What I meant by that is not all women have a mehram, so they dont have someone providing for them. I wasnt saying anything that needs a hadith to back up. Sorry for confusing you.

[GuestFellow]

Again, not necessarily. Once you build a history with another person, the feelings of protectiveness grow ever more stronger. Just 'liking' someone isn't the same as being married and having children, and then seeing another man taking notable interest in your wife, especially in the work place where people are comfortable talking to one another.

Of course the husband would be concerned. This concern does not necessarily translate to jealousy. If the wife is a good Muslim, she would not even be engaging in a casual conversation with a man. Besides, how would the husband know if his wife is talking to another guy at work?

['Abd-al Latif]

Of course the husband would be concerned. This concern does not necessarily translate to jealousy. If the wife is a good Muslim, she would not even be engaging in a casual conversation with a man. Besides, how would the husband know if his wife is talking to another guy at work?

My dear brother, get married and we'll talk. :)

[Salahudeen]

Of course the husband would be concerned. This concern does not necessarily translate to jealousy. If the wife is a good Muslim, she would not even be engaging in a casual conversation with a man. Besides, how would the husband know if his wife is talking to another guy at work?

But her job may entail her to, but in saying that, many men work and mix with women on the job also, so the problem will all ways exist until we have single gender organisations like I suggested :p that would be illegal under UK law though, so we'd have to open it up somewhere where they'd allow it

[GuestFellow]

My dear brother, get married and we'll talk. :)

All you have to do is address my points. Maybe you would experience jealously, but I wouldn't. Jealously is absolutely ugly and frowned upon.

[Salahudeen]

All you have to do is address my points. Maybe you would experience jealously, but I wouldn't. Jealously is absolutely ugly and frowned upon.

Not in Islam brother, gheerah for a man is encouraged, there is a hadith about it where the prophet (saw) said something negative about a man with no gheerah for his women folk, I can't remember the exact words, I'll try find it for you.


“There are three at whom Allaah will not look at on the day of Resurrection: (1) the one who disobeys his parents, (2) the woman who imitates men, and (3) the duyooth (a man who has no protective jealousy towards his womenfolk).” [Saheeh Al-Jaami' As-Sagheer 3/74, hadith no. 3066]


In Sahih Bukhari, Book 62, (Chapter on Nikah), Chapter 30 it says:

CHAPTER 30: The Ghira (i.e., honour, prestige or self-respect)

[Sa'd ibn ubaada said: "If i saw a man with my wife I would strike him with the sharp edge of the sword." The prophet (SAW) said (to his companions); "Are you ashtonished by Sa'd's (Ghira) sense of honour? (By Allaah) I have a greater sense of Ghira than he has, and Allaah has still more greater sense of Ghira than I have."]

[CosmicPathos]

Ok we first have to get the basic definitions right.

Is getting dolled up and looking all beautiful and gorgeous and then going to work not a sign of displaying the good genes you've got? If evolution is true, men have evolved to spread their seed where they think good genes are. So when the human mind sees the good genes, things automatically start getting raunchy. Now women say that why is it always about sex. Well is there any other reason for putting the good genes on display if it is not to attract the man with best genes as well? Or is it to just look good? Well if it is to look good, that just does not make sense. Our eyes cannot see our own face, except in front of the mirror. So how does getting all dolled up going to make you feel good about yourself unless until you look in the mirror for the whole day? Or mayeb teh intentions to get dressed up were a bit more sinister, to get praises from other ppl, to make others envious, to make some jealous, and to kill the hearts of some? :S

['Abd-al Latif]

All you have to do is address my points. Maybe you would experience jealously, but I wouldn't. Jealously is absolutely ugly and frowned upon.

You will best understand this when you have a wife, no words I say will be more convincing than looking after your wife.

[GuestFellow]

But her job may entail her to, but in saying that, many men work and mix with women on the job also, so the problem will all ways exist until we have single gender organisations like I suggested :p that would be illegal under UK law though, so we'd have to open it up somewhere where they'd allow it

As long as the Muslim women is covered up, only talks to men about work, then that's fine. I suppose trust is another factor...

[GuestFellow]

You will best understand this when you have a wife, no words I say will be more convincing than looking after your wife.

No, I will not experience jealously. I know myself very well. It would be afraid for my wife and daughter if a guy was perving over them...and beat him up.

['Abd-al Latif]

As long as the Muslim women is covered up, only talks to men about work, then that's fine. I suppose trust is another factor...

Trust was given to Barsisa, the Jewish worshipper before Prophet Muhammed (:saws1:) but he failed miserably, prostrating to shaytan as the last act before being executed, though he spent a lifetime of worship.

Trust was given to some of the sahaba while the women wore hijabs and the messenger was among them yet there were those odd one or two lesser known sahaba that committed fornication or adultry.

Trust was even given to Prophet Yusuf (a.s) but Allah mentions in Qur'an that "...he would have inclined to her desire..." (Qur'an 12:23), meaning the Prophet of Allah felt the intensity of the fitnah, yet it was only the guidance and protection of Allah that saved him.

Hijab is never a guarentee that fitnah won't happen, nor is lowering the gaze. It's a preventive, not a promise.

It's like putting money out in the open and hoping some people who you don't really know won't steal it.

It's why I say, get married and we'll talk.

[CosmicPathos]

No, I will not experience jealously. I know myself very well. It would be afraid for my wife and daughter if a guy was perving over them...and beat him up.

Do you have enough amount of testosterone bro? :p

[ardianto]

And now regarding to jobs, women aren't supposed to work in areas with mixed genders. this is simply to prevent fitnah as shaytaan is always the one who can ruin it. for a women its best to start her business at home or atleast close by. to prevent going out alone, or mixing with other genders.

In the new rule of lingerie shops, men are not allowed to entering these shop. Gender mixing will not happen in these shops.

Now, compare with old rule which only men who allowed to work in lingerie shops. All customers are women. Male shop assistants and female customers talk about size of women underwear. Can you imagine how big fitnah that happened in old rule?

The new rule is created to protect women from fitnah. Notice again, King Abdullah did not open all working fields, but only specific working fields which the customers are female. It's to prevent gender mixing.

[joyous fairy]

But her job may entail her to, but in saying that, many men work and mix with women on the job also, so the problem will all ways exist until we have single gender organisations like I suggested :p that would be illegal under UK law though, so we'd have to open it up somewhere where they'd allow it

Yep, but if you look at it, realistically, women would need to use organisations that are male-dominated and vice versa, unless they had sections for men and women to work but in different areas. For example, a garage being run by female on one side of the city, and one being run by men on the other side. even so, they would still need to communicate. Maybe they could use MSN to communicate with anonymous I-D's lol.

[CosmicPathos]

Trust was given to Barsisa, the Jewish worshipper before Prophet Muhammed (:saws1:) but he failed miserably, prostration to shaytan as the last act before being executed, though he spent a lifetime of worship.

Trust was given to some of the sahaba while the women wore hijabs and the messenger was among them yet there were those odd one or two lesser known sahaba that committed fornication or adultry.

Trust was even given to Prophet Yusuf (a.s) but Allah mentions in Qur'an that "...he would have inclined to her desire..." (Qur'an 12:23), meaning the Prophet of Allah felt the intensity of the fitnah, yet it was only the guidance and protection of Allah that saved him.

Hijab is never a guarentee that fitnah won't happen, nor is lowering the gaze.

It's like putting money out in the open and hoping some people who you don't really know that well won't steal it.

It's why I say, get married and we'll talk.

are you married bro ?

[GuestFellow]

Do you have enough amount of testosterone bro? :p

Irrelevant.

Trust was given to Barsisa, the Jewish worshipper before Prophet Muhammed (:saws1:) but he failed miserably, prostrating to shaytan as the last act before being executed, though he spent a lifetime of worship.

Trust was given to some of the sahaba while the women wore hijabs and the messenger was among them yet there were those odd one or two lesser known sahaba that committed fornication or adultry.

Trust was even given to Prophet Yusuf (a.s) but Allah mentions in Qur'an that "...he would have inclined to her desire..." (Qur'an 12:23), meaning the Prophet of Allah felt the intensity of the fitnah, yet it was only the guidance and protection of Allah that saved him.

Hijab is never a guarentee that fitnah won't happen, nor is lowering the gaze. It's a preventive, not a promise.

It's like putting money out in the open and hoping some people who you don't really know won't steal it.

It's why I say, get married and we'll talk.

There is no need to get married.

Fornication and adultery will always exist for people who desire to engage in such acts. Sometimes, these acts occur due to circumstances an individual is in Islam helps to avoid these situations but not avoid them completely. At one point, genders will mix and people will have to accept that. Have some faith in yourself not to engage in such acts (not directed at you but everyone in general). It is as simple as that. ]

Besides, let's get to the point. What are you advocating? On what particular issue you disagree with me?

[Salahudeen]

Yep, but if you look at it, realistically, women would need to use organisations that are male-dominated and vice versa, unless they had sections for men and women to work but in different areas. For example, a garage being run by female on one side of the city, and one being run by men on the other side. even so, they would still need to communicate. Maybe they could use MSN to communicate with anonymous I-D's lol.

innovative I like it, there would also be voice changing technology so when the woman spoke on the phone it would sound like a man. ;D

[joyous fairy]

innovative I like it, there would also be voice changing technology so when the woman spoke on the phone it would sound like a man. ;D

Lol. Make them sound like a robot.

When I went Saudi, nearly all the clothes shops were owned/run by males even though it was mostly women shopping!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Why does there even have to be a law anyway lol! No offense but seriously...sometimes it goes too far. Why this tad bit of common sense took so long to process....wallaahu alam...

[CuriousIncident]

Even though I am not Muslim (yet), I am glad to hear about this ban.

[esperanza]

well it was just reopened last night and great debate going on

[esperanza]

[QUOTE=joyous fairy;1489527]You guys seem to be missing the fact that NOT ALL WOMEN ARE MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS. NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE MEHRAM.


salam sister.of ourse this is true,,especially for muslims living in the west
obviously in an ideal isalmic ommunity wsomen woud either be married supported by family or community,,but the reality is different
and in the west epspeially among reverts maybe women need to work

but remeber this post is speifically about saudi arabia where women dont need to work,,but wehere we need womne to wokr in thse kind of shops
and where we sitill have a shortage of well qualifieddoctors for women to visit

[esperanza]

But her job may entail her to, but in saying that, many men work and mix with women on the job also, so the problem will all ways exist until we have single gender organisations like I suggested :p that would be illegal under UK law though, so we'd have to open it up somewhere where they'd allow it

salam
ithink its not just among muslim men married men there xan be a problem wiht jealousy and women working

in the west im sure many men are jealous about their wives aomng among men just as women are too.. the number of affairs that take place ast work is very highmmm

but for muslim women there role as woman as wife and mother is the most important,,and many men would expect their wives to concenentrate on this,,,

iworked when i had three young children,,and to be honest,,it was very stressful,,and if ilived in a western country,,where there are many other social activites..like sports cclasses to learn,,places to walk... iwould perhaps not wish to work,,, iworked bexasue here life was so boring,,,

[esperanza]

In the new rule of lingerie shops, men are not allowed to entering these shop. Gender mixing will not happen in these shops.

Now, compare with old rule which only men who allowed to work in lingerie shops. All customers are women. Male shop assistants and female customers talk about size of women underwear. Can you imagine how big fitnah that happened in old rule?

The new rule is created to protect women from fitnah. Notice again, King Abdullah did not open all working fields, but only specific working fields which the customers are female. It's to prevent gender mixing.

thank you for this answer....thats the point of this post..to prevent fitnah,,it made no sense that before women had to go in men only shops,,to choose and buy lingerie,,now they can go to women

they hope to extend the ban to cosmetics shops..this too makes sense,,we go in perfume or beauty shops,,and men rush to try diferent perfumes or sugest different ones,,,its not a comfortable feeling,, i rarely enter such shops

[esperanza]

Why does there even have to be a law anyway lol! No offense but seriously...sometimes it goes too far. Why this tad bit of common sense took so long to process....wallaahu alam...

there had to be a lwa ..beause until reently only men worked everywhere and there was real need for womne in such shops

[Maryan0]

I thought women could join the military since many female sahaba participated in jihad? maybe this was symptom of the times?
I also thought women could become judges just not in cases of qisas or hudood? differences of opinion?
Salam

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

there had to be a lwa ..beause until reently only men worked everywhere and there was real need for womne in such shops

No sis u didn't get my point. Why so long to do this, is what I was saying. N common sense needs no law....


:sl:

[Ramadhan]

Maybe .. just maybe.. after the Saudi government is done taking care these all important issues such as:
men or women working in lingerie shop? (women win, they now can chat and discuss with shop assistants about their underwear sizes without feeling awkward), or
men only or can women be also behind the steering wheel? (men only, but women still win, they don't have to drive, but they can be driven anywhere by their non-mahram drivers),
they will be probably able to pay some attention to trivial matters, such as protection for migrant domestic workers?

[Darth Ultor]

Nope. There's still the issue of women not being allowed to wear a tiedye hijab

[ardianto]

Nope. There's still the issue of women not being allowed to wear a tiedye hijab

They can wear it outside of Saudi Arabia.

[~ Sabr ~]

A WHAT hijab?!?!?!

[Ramadhan]

A WHAT hijab?!?!?!

a tiedye hijab.

[ardianto]

A WHAT hijab?!?!?!

Colorful hijab. Just like hijab that worn by my wife.

[Darth Ultor]

I was actually kidding. I didn't think they existed. I thought they were all in solid colors. A professor who teaches Arabic at my university wears an all green one.

[~ Sabr ~]

Hijaab exist in all colours, I didn't think they actually had a name. And when I went for Umrah about 3 different times, I wore like light blue, etc. They don't ban colourful hijaabs ^o)

[ardianto]

And when I went for Umrah about 3 different times, I wore like light blue, etc. They don't ban colourful hijaabs

Because you are not citizen of Saudi Arabia.

[~ Sabr ~]

And how did they know that?! When they see me in a colourful hijaab, do they ask to see my passport?! No, I thought not lol. People you need to chill.

[ابن آل مرة]

I think it it was unnecessary to open this thread again.

[~ Sabr ~]

^ Snap.

[joyous fairy]

[QUOTE=esperanza;1489607]

You guys seem to be missing the fact that NOT ALL WOMEN ARE MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS. NOT ALL WOMEN HAVE MEHRAM.


salam sister.of ourse this is true,,especially for muslims living in the west
obviously in an ideal isalmic ommunity wsomen woud either be married supported by family or community,,but the reality is different
and in the west epspeially among reverts maybe women need to work

but remeber this post is speifically about saudi arabia where women dont need to work,,but wehere we need womne to wokr in thse kind of shops
and where we sitill have a shortage of well qualifieddoctors for women to visit

Who provides for women who dont have a mehram?

And your second paragraph is similar to what I said in my first post in this thread. We cant expect women to only work in professional jobs because they all cant get the needed qualifications. If they were desperately in need of a job and had no qualifications, at least they could look for retail jobs for women because you dont need a qualification for that. However, I am only stating this because I really dont know who financially supports women who dont have any support, does anyone know??

[syed_z]

Who provides for women who dont have a mehram?

Salaam


From what i know and please correct me if any one. Father is supposed to, if she has no father then brother and if not brother then near relatives or the Islamic State.

Prophet (saw) said "If a man has for three daughters and he spends for their maintenance, God makes paradise sure for him, except one (i.e the man) whose sin is not pardonable (for eg he dies disbelieving or associating partners with Allah)."

Unfortunately there are several Muslim states but none of them or at least most of them are not Islamic that they would take care of women with social security or money and provide them provisions so that they need not be forced to go out and work amongst men specially when they have children.

Thats also one reason why men are allowed to marry 4 women, so they can support the less fortunate ones.

['Abd-al Latif]

Nope. There's still the issue of women not being allowed to wear a tiedye hijab

I never knew you were so concerned about the welfare of Muslim women. I mean women themselves don't complain about wearing colourful hijabs, yet you want to make sure every stone goes unturned.

As a sister's faith increases she chooses not to wear a colourful hijab because they are sometimes a lot more attractive and eye catching. It decreases the benefit that is meant to be achieved from the veil. In fact, why don't we just ask sisters here who choose not to wear a colourful hijab?

Sisters, is it a problem not to wear colourful hijab? What does a black hijab mean to you?

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

As'Salaam Alaaykum wa Rahmatullaah wa Barahkaatuh

Sisters, is it a problem not to wear colourful hijab? What does a black hijab mean to you?

To your question, it is a problem for me when wearing a colourful hijaab, colourful as in colours that stand out (i do not mean all), bright colours, shiny glittery hijabs and others, for me personally that is and i'm sure other sisters may agree and some who may disagree.

I do feel that hijaab means cover in the essence that you wear none attention seeking clothes, hijaab that is simple in colour and design i.e. none shiny or glittery etc.

Let's say for example make-up is allowed for women to wear, but if you were to put make up whilst wearing the 'hijaab' the 'cover', then what is the purpose of the 'cover'? You might aswell uncover the cover if that's the case, as the whole point is gone, I hope it makes sense.. What I mean to say is that there is a time for everything, we have to be careful how and when we apply it.

yes ofcourse, women are allowed to beautify themselves but infront of those who have a right upon them, in this case a father upon his daughter, a husband upon his wife etc etc. And for those who have no right are adviced to lower their gaze and it's not the duty of the women/sisters to make it difficult upon others either. I apologise for going on, I just wanted to mention a few things. Also I remember recieving an email regarding I believe Muhammad Ali (The boxer i think), and a story he told his daughter.

I managed to find it on a site, so here it is, however, apologies if it seems quite irrelevant, but does somehow explain in a different way how the hijaab is to be applied. I'm not intending to have an argumentive discussion please, so for those who disagree, feel free to do so, this may well just be my opinion, although please feel free to correct me. Jazakallaahu Khaayran.


The following incident took place when Muhammad Ali's daughters arrived at his home wearing clothes that were not modest. Here is the story as told by one of his daughters:

When we finally arrived, the chauffeur escorted my younger sister, Laila, and me up to my father's suite. As usual, he was hiding behind the door waiting to scare us. We exchanged many hugs and kisses as we could possibly give in one day.

My father took a good look at us. Then he sat me down on his lap and said something that I will never forget. He looked me straight in the eyes and said, "Hana, everything that God made valuable in the world is covered and hard to get to. Where do you find diamonds? Deep down in the ground, covered and protected. Where do you find pearls? Deep down at the bottom of the ocean, covered up and protected in a beautiful shell. Where do you find gold? Way down in the mine, covered over with layers and layers of rock. You've got to work hard to get to them."

He looked at me with serious eyes. "Your body is sacred. You're far more precious than diamonds and pearls, and you should be covered too." Source: Taken from the book: More Than A Hero: Muhammad Ali's Life Lessons Through His Daughter's Eyes.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont always wear black but its not a problem..:D Black is cool. I dont like flashy colors/hijabs though...prefer sticking with solid colors on the less bright/funky/flashy side..

There was a point where I wanted to stick with black but mom would be on my case and say "why are you always wearing black." Black is not a must...not as far as I know though. All my hijabs are on the darker side..even if they are colors.

[GuestFellow]

Colorful hijab. Just like hijab that worn by my wife.

I think with colourful Hijabs, they may attract too much attention.

[joyous fairy]

Start another topic for hijabs.

[Scimitar]

I couldnt imagine working in a womens underwear outlet... let alone going into one to buy underwear for the missus *brrrr - shiver*

All I'm saying is - about time they had women working in womens shops. Men have no business being there. Simple.

Scimi

[ardianto]

I think with colourful Hijabs, they may attract too much attention.

In a place where women wear hijab from various colors, a colorful hijab will not attract an attention.

Although my wife has few colorful hijabs, she prefer to wear single colors, but never black. She has black hijab too, but it doesn't matched with her Muslimah dresses. My wife always ask my opinion in clothes because she wants to always look beautiful, and I really like if she always look beautiful. That's why I never hesitate to spend money when she wants a new outfit.

My cousin married a religious good looking woman, and he has two teen daughters. Sometimes they come to my house, and I noticed they always wore beautiful clothes that made them look more beautiful. My cousin's wife usually wore brightly colored dress, while his teenage daughters love pink.

Ulama in Indonesia never said that the hijab should be black. And hijab that worn by female Islamic teachers at my place also usually not black. Rather difficult to find women who wear black hijab in my place.

[Ramadhan]

In a place where women wear hijab from various colors, a colorful hijab will not attract an attention.

This is very true.
The nature of Arabia was mostly desert and grey, and to wear colorful hijab means you are going to attract attention.

In contrast, the nature of Indonesia, which is an equatorial archipelago, is blessed with every spectrum of colors you can imagine and more! People here also dress up mimicking the nature in very very colorful dresses, ask sister Syilla (I know she's from Malaysia, but she's been to Indonesia and Malaysia is very similar to Indonesia).
In fact, a woman dressed in all black hijab would rouse more attention, and I on occasions did double takes and took another look at all-black hijab wearing sisters.

[esperanza]

I think with colourful Hijabs, they may attract too much attention.

i think this depends on where you are,,if insaudi where all wear black ,,colourful will seem starange,,,but in countries where most people wear colourful it will not stand out..
traditionall in saudi women wore all black abayas not the tiniest spek of colour,,now youd be surprised at the patterns and colours they have
the blacck is a tradiytional thing

for me black is depressing
you can have colourful hijabs if colurs are subtle not flashy,,and
the same for abaya like women wearin egypt dark blue oliver green or brown abaysa why not?????????
as long as women are covered appropriately

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext:

I have started a new thread about colourful and attractive veils here.

Please continue all discussion relating to it there because this thread is derailing off topic. I may delete or move any further posts if they are relating to colourful hijabs on this thread.

[~Zaria~]

Sisters, is it a problem not to wear colourful hijab? What does a black hijab mean to you?

Assalamu-alaikum,

I cant believe this thread is still alive..... :exhausted

I'll save myself reading the last 5 pages and just address this question.

This is just a personal view, so people, please dont take offense......if you dont agree, thats cool :)

Ive been on both sides of this fence:

The fairly modern, non-hijabi woman......to the full cloaked in black muslimah (fairly recently, Alhamdulillah).

And to some, including my collegues as well as my own family - Ive become: too 'radical'......I'm 'getting older before my time'.....'what is wrong in wearing normal clothes and a scarf'.......'Islam doesnt insist on women wearing black everyday'........Ive heard just about every reason why I should go back to my old ways.

And to be honest - its actually not very easy to try and explain what I feel wearing full hijab (ie. a black cloak/ abaya over my inner garments).
I do wear scarves that may have some color - but my outer garment is always black, and insha Allah will remain so.
Im sure other sisters, who have adopted this way of dress can relate to this as well.......

What makes a woman, who was in love with fashion, and who just HAD to have the matching shoe - to go with the matching blouse and the matching skirt......give it all up - for a simple black attire.....voluntarily.......and feel the most peace she has ever felt in her entire life?

For me, it was the realisation that I am at last (yep, took me long enough ) willing to GIVE UP THIS DUNYA completely and truly for the will of Allah (subhanawata'ala).
The realisation that this life is so temporary - and if I am not willing to forsake such foolish pleasures.....than truly, there must be something wrong with me.....imsad

And so, when Allah says in the Quraan:

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around them (when they go out or are among men). That is better in order that they may be known (to be Muslims) and not annoyed..." (Qur'an 33:59)

" And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Qur'an 24:30-31)

then this is what He, our Rabb means.

Why do we go around the bush....trying to find loopholes here and there?

If the purpose of drawing an outer-garment around ourselves - is to protect us from illicit gazes, and safe-guard our beauty and modesty......then why do we seek yet another way to draw attention to ourselves by means of making it colourful and glitzy?

Does that make sense?

Are we not satisfied with the commands of our Allah??

Truly, one cannot adequately describe the peace, tranquility, contentment - and liberation from 'slavery' to fashion.....when it is done for the RIGHT reasons.

Not because your mum/ husband insists that you wear hijab.
Not because it is the ruling of your country.

But because this is the decree of the one that has created you, brought you out of nothing, and continues to sustain you despite your disobedience every day.
Ya, SubhanAllah! :cry:

So, now you may be asking - why does this 'cloak'/ outer garment have to be black?
Allah and His Nabi (sallahu alaihi wasalam) has not forbidden color?

True.

For myself - I have realised that black is the most non-enhancing, non-revealing and non eye-catching color around.
And while I personally may wear a black abaya with a little embroidery/ pattern/ color on it - at the end of the day, we should not lose sight of the purpose of this garment - i.e not to draw attention towards oneself.


As has been mentioned above, there are countries where it is the 'norm' to wear colourful, non-revealing prints.
And I guess - looking at it from this perspective - it is an individual decision: to wear a black cloak vs. a colourful one.


However, for those who have found the sukoon/ peace in their hearts, from letting go off the whims of fashion - they may understand where I am coming from insha Allah.

And apart from this - do you want to know the other biggest advantage: Money saved! :)

If only you contemplate on the wisdom of this simple attire - Alhamdulillah, there is benefit from many points of view.
It has even given me the chance to reduce my ward-robe to half :) (honestly - most women have waaay too many clothes, then is necessary.....)


There are no other, better reasons (that I can think of).

And so - no, it is absolutely no problem - not to be wearing a colourful hijab (for myself :) )

Salaam.

[~Zaria~]

^Oops...didnt see the previous post.....I cant delete this, please move as necessary.

JazakAllah,

Salaam

['Abd-al Latif]

I'll allow it to stay as it in is response to a previous question. But all other posts on the other thread please.

[Amat Allah]

Assalaamu Alikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

Only to say that according Shariaa; whatever permitted deed in Islam; becomes not permittedif there is a fear of fitnah. And this ruling applies to all actions

such as:

woman driving
colourful hijab
woman working

even the Islamic greetings which the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) encouraged us to greet with it those whom we know and whom we don't... if it would be a source of Fitnah then we must remain silent.

That's it and May Allah love you all, help you ton worship Him The Exalted right and make you from the best of His servants and slaves Ameeen

Humbly and with all respect, your sister:

Amat Allah.