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Ali_008
01-05-2012, 02:26 PM
:sl:

This is a real-life debate that took place between two Indian young men, one is a Muslim and the other is a Hindu. Worthy of sharing so here it is. This argument had extended to another post and hence some parts of the conversation might sound missing but don't affect the overall meaning. While going through this, it also reminded me of the debates we have on this forum between Muslims and Non-Muslims and how they just keep revolving in circles. I hope you guys enjoy this as much as I did and see how falsehood crumbles when faced by the truth. And yes, this took place on facebook. ;D

Hindu
dude thats not the case: Mohammed said ''A Nation Headed By A Woman Shall Never Succeed'' (ref. Hadid sahih bukhari,vol.5 ,page 136,Bukhari, vol.4, page 97;Nisai vol8,page 227;Hadith sahih Tirmidhi vol5,page 457)

Muslim
Yes, Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) did say that and although it is "perceived" by many as oppressive towards women but truly it isn't. Him saying that has a lot of factors behind it that actually demonstrates that it is much harder for a woman to lead than a man. Hence, when the leader itself is vexed, the followers ought to fall too.

And out of all the people in the world, us Indians actually stand as a living example of how true that saying really is. We have a female president and a prime minister who is the puppet of another female and India is terribly suffering today. Although, other leaders weren't that great either but never did scams as big as Kalmadi and Raja take place under the rules of other "men". The fall of rupee, sensex, increased crime rate, prices and what not.

Another similar example is Europe. One of the most significant nations of the European Union, Germany, is under the rule of Angela Merkel and the continent is facing an alien concept which wasn't even known to them before called the "Euro Crisis".

It isn't being condescending towards women. It just says that the pressure of leadership is too much for women especially with all the physiological processes that constantly keep taking place in them constantly. In Islam, a woman is too precious to be loaded with such huge responsibilities and exposed to an entire population so that the ruffians can lust her.

Hindu
that was loosely based on coincidental examples but dude scientifically women are more desive and psychologically powerful than men

it was wrong for taking the president into acount and representing it as the burden for the nation-if you can understand the Indian democratic system and its executive functions and its ways of operations you will know that although ours is a democratic country we give equal importance for all types of powers for just execution of the nations well being and in this manner the president and the governors are appointed . do you also know that the prime minister is appointed? :) do you know that lok sabha is elected lot but rajya sabha is the appointed lot? that is the reason your explanation is biased and illogical :) you can take rani rudramma and rani lakshmi bai -you might not know so you can google the information on the web :) regards

Muslim
How does the process of selection affect the reign of the selected candidate? Are you saying the president wasn't ready for the job and was just pushed to take it up and hence she can't be blamed for today's bad state?

And I totally admit that LakshmiBai was a valiant queen but she is praised more for her bravery than her rule. She took up the charge and exhibited an amazing display of bravery for the world to see but she couldn't win the battle and died a martyr.

Coming to Rani Rudramma, I know very vaguely about her. Isn't it true that the she was the last ruler of her dynasty and her empire collapsed after her?

Hindu
no it was not that the society is in the bad state as said by you does not compel a person to come to the point that the president of that country is a female. the people you elect are the people who will form the government so the next time if each one of you takes the ''pain'' of thinking just and electing a person irrespective of religion,sex,caste,creed and other biased options....the world will be a better place to live.coming to the president-you can google her sucess and the country's progress because i can't explain you each and everything in detail. coming to rani lakshmi bai if you would take some more ''pain'' to google up you will know her responsibility in maintaining the executive powers and as you said she could'nt win......she might not have won the battle but she she won the war against the people who think that women don't deserve that respect or women can't govern the country and for additional information the winning and losing in a battle takes place due to numerous facts which would be clear if you could read the ''Systematic reading in Islam'' by Dr.Al Najar page 58 :)

Muslim
Dude, you are taking all this as disrespect towards women which it isn't to begin with. Like I said, women are too precious to be loaded with such responsibilities. Qur'an states in 4:34 that "men are protectors of women" and if men can't protect women then there are not following the commands of Allah. Hence if it comes to a situation where a woman has to stand up and take charge then it obviously is a shame. The situation becomes like "have men lost their manhood that women have to take up their tasks?".

It is not a matter of degrading women. It is a matter of protecting them. Let's take a scenario where a father asks his son to take care of his daughter while he goes out to get something or to work. When he comes back, he finds the daughter taking care of the son instead of the other way round. Wouldn't that upset that man? It will be an utter display of disobedience to the father.

Hindu
its is not you are thinking radical......

and please leave the quaran thingy aside and speak practtical man

Muslim
What can be more practical than the Qur'an?

Hindu
lot of things

Muslim
In my 22 years of existence, I haven't seen anything more logical and practical than the Qur'an. And I don't say this just because I'm a Muslim. I've done extensive research about Islam in the past 4-5 years and I can, honestly, say that there is nothing more convincing and practical than the Qur'an in the entire world today.


Hindu
there is

Muslim
what is that?

Hindu
love for humanity

if you just research islam and say that ''there is nothing more convincing and practical than the Qur'an in the entire world today.'' without having any other ''ilm'' .......then .....dude......i can't help you :)

‎''ilm'' in the sense i meant knowledge :)

Muslim
Every teaching of the Qur'an is for the welfare, the love of humanity. Actually I am wrong, it is not love. It is beyond love, it is bigger than love.

I never said I researched only Islam. I went through various beliefs and undoubtedly every belief had its own set of good principles but there were contradictions and ambiguous statements as well. I sieved everything I came across with logic and reasoning and on the whole, the text of the Qur'an stood crystal clear with zero contradictions and ambiguity. I know Islam is called the religion of terrorism, oppressing women, brutality, inhumanity et al but I say all those people who say that have no knowledge of what they're saying.

I challenge every human being to bring out even a single teaching of Islam which is against humanity on the whole.

Hindu
i know man :)......but you should go deeper in your so called ''research'' mere reading the summary at the back of the book will not do .you said you have read so many beliefs and came out that islam is crystal clear and no contradictions.....but to speak fair and just if every belief has contradictions then islam too has....you said you would challenge any person......(bla bla)....and you also said about your knowledge about various beliefs then i am challenging you......to get the similarity between all the beliefs including islam....dude .the propoganda and fundamentalism will get no human being nowhere and if it does then India would be the next Pakistan.....and if every person on the Earth respect each other irrespective of religion,caste,creed,race and colour.....the world will be a paradise :)

you can challenge me any time anywhere abiut islam being against the humanity and for the violence and terrorism.....dude the world just needs peace and killings won't help anybody due to which innocent people gets killed.have you read Gita as i read Quran?

Muslim
I challenge you right now. Show me one teaching of Qur'an which is against humanity! :-/

Btw, you are in no position to judge the thoroughness of my research. You have no right to credit my experience as "reading the summary at the back of the book".

Hindu
ok leave all the ''credibility'' and ''discredibility'' i ask you why did mohammed wade wars and why was his income based on the war raxes? do you know anything about banu fasarah? .....but dude you did not answer my first question when i already challenged you.....that is ''have you read The Great Bhagawat Gita as i read the quran? answer me if you want to prove the credibility :)

Muslim
We had Mahabharata as part of our syllabus in 7th and even after that I've stayed in touch with the mythology. I can't answer your question about my knowledge of the Geeta because I don't know how far you've studied the Qur'an to give a proper comparison but yeah you can call me a beginner, if you wish.

Well, Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) never initiated any war himself. If you don't know, he was a resident of Makkah but faced outrageous opposition when he started preaching the oneness of God. He and his followers were literally driven out of their homes and they found refuge in Medina. The persecution didn't stop even then as the Makkah residents kept troubling his remaining followers in Makkah and even burned down all the possessions of those followers who migrated to Medina. In an effort to put an end to all the oppression, wars were fought. It was against the oppression the Prophet and his followers faced from the tyrant authorities of Makkah.

Income based on war taxes? I don't know where you heard that because basically after the arrival of his prophethood, there was no income for Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) as he was busy all day propagating the oneness of Allah. He didn't have any income. Whatever he had, he used to give away in charity. For months, he and his family survived solely on dates and water. He had a humble existence as he didn't live in any mansion but in a very simple home in Medina. His life as a Prophet was in poverty and he even prayed to Allah that he dies as a poor man and he eventually did.

Banu Fasarah. This is a very old topic very commonly used to portray Islam in the bad light. The answer to this query is it's authenticity. Check the source where it comes from. It has been proven from time to time that this story comes from an unreliable source and there's no proof of its validity.

Hindu
‎''Banu Fasarah. This is a very old topic very commonly used to portray Islam in the bad light. The answer to this query is it's authenticity. Check the source where it comes from. It has been proven from time to time that this story comes from an unreliable source and there's no proof of its validity.'' just shows that you are being biased and radical......and incompetent to explain the reality :).....well if you are speaking about our 7th standard Mahabharat....you don't know anything because its just the jist of the whole of great epic......so buddy you should go deeper and start your reasearch at least from now on to know ''the true love for humanity'' regards :)

Muslim
How am I being biased and radical? The topic which you raised, I know about it from quite some time and I know the details associated with it. So does being aware of facts make me biased? I'll give you an example to demonstrate:

I'll go out today and start saying that "Alexander The Great didn't die of fever in young age but of swine flu. It was a rare condition back then and his kingdom didn't want the news to come out so they covered it with fever." and I found this information in an old book which I say was written 30 years after the death of Alexander. Will anybody believe me? Will my news have any credibility?

The same is with the Banu Fasarah incident. It just popped up out of nowhere and the person who narrated the incident wasn't exactly known for his truthfulness. He had a dubious character.

What is it about the Mahabharata that you keep referring to? At least let it out so that we'll see how much I know about it. You're just making assumptions about my knowledge and not even letting me defend myself. :( Calling me biased and radical.

Hindu
it's not about that man.....your assumption about Banu Fasarah is wrong and it had been made as a conspiracy to cover the truths that innocent women and girls were killed and murdered and mohammed participated in many wars to eradicate what he calls ''the infidels''.it was not at all the defensive move but a offencive move which many groups follow today.....which we call as terrorists....and the Islamic nations like Pakistan and Arab emirates as welfare organizations :) coming to your point ''What is it about the Mahabharata that you keep referring to? At least let it out so that we'll see how much I know about it.'' i was referring to your statement in which you said that you researched many beliefs and you also said you read mahabharata in 7th standard....what i want to tell you is that just studying 7th standard mahabharata hindi syllabus you did not do the research about it but has a vague idea about it so you should go ahead and explore the world of possibilities my friend to understand better :)

Muslim
Really? And whoever made that conspiracy up came and told you about it after 1400 years? Hmmm interesting! Moreover, the Banu Fasarah incident is associated with the killing of a woman and an old man. Where did "women" and "girls" (plural) come in it from? Are you sure what you're talking about? Because I feel like you've just been fed this stuff by Anti-Islamic groups. Don't believe everything you see or read especially in today's world and more especially about Islam. I myself keep struggling with deducing the authenticity of the stuff I keep hearing about Islam. But so far most allegations that are put against Islam have been found to be misconceptions. Banu Fasarah is an exception where it isn't a misconception but a blatant attack against Islam without any proof backing it.


Hindu
dude the thing what you call a ''misconception'' is your misconception. i have provided you valid texts and page numbers and you can search and ''deduce'' the same....and as i you know about me i compare and come to a conclusion on by proper research on some topic ...coming to anti-islamic groups......do they really exist?because if i want to know about islam then all i do is to read quran from where i take out the information -then do you say that quran is anti-islamic??? i only request you to widen your knowledge about evryother religion and after you get in depth of the matter then you can compare :)

Muslim
What part of my faith are you calling a misconception? The following are widely known misconceptions about Islam:

- That women are oppressed in Islam
- That Islam encourages killing of innocent people.
- That Islam encourages killing of Non-Muslims unreasonably.

Are you saying that my belief that all these things are misconceptions is a misconception? Are you saying that Islam actually oppresses women, encourages killing and rape etc.

You're saying all your knowledge of Islam is from the Qur'an and yet you are talking about Banu Fasarah. Where in the Qur'an is Banu Fasarah mentioned? Please tell me.

The only reference you've given is that of the saying that women shouldn't rule. I didn't deny that at all. I completely agreed that yes Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) actually said that. And I even gave its explanation. What other reference/page number did you give?

Hindu
the misconception i was talking about is explained in my previous post read it carefully without increasing your blood pressure :)

Muslim
You still believe the story of Banu Fasarah to be true? You're entitled to your own opinion even if it is not the truth.

P.s. - You never gave any reference of the Banu Fasarah story. You gave one, just ONE reference.

Hindu
you think that it is not true because your thinking is radical and you don't have the courage to believe that all the religions preach the same but an egoist who claims to have read ''everything'' and has incredible ''knowledge'' and are ignorant.yes i gave you one reference.....have you checked it?......have you done ''research'' on it....well that one thing is enough for you what should i expect if i give you one thousand instances?......you would ask for probably more and more.....hahahahaaaaa P.S. get some knowledge.

Muslim
I never denied the one reference you gave me. I completely agreed with it. I know he said that and I even explained it. I never said that you are blabbering fiction with regard to that particular reference. I completely acknowledged it. Why do I still have to do research over it?

And all religions preach the same thing isn't right. If you have even basic knowledge of all religions then you will know how contrasting all religions really are. The only thing similar in all religions is the fact there is one and ONLY ONE God.

Hindu
dude all religions preach the same thing that is there is one GOD . that does not mean that that god is allah or somebody else everybody has the right to practice their own religion and follow their beliefs.this is India where everyone has their freedom and is a secular nation not Pakistan :)

and coming to your conspiracy theories you are in your own world of imagination and you have been stuffed by anti-american and islamic radicalism - I'll give you an example to demonstrate:

I'll go out today and start saying that "Alexander The Great didn't die of fever in young age but of swine flu. It was a rare condition back then and his kingdom didn't want the news to come out so they covered it with fever." P.S. you have to think openmindedly :)

Muslim
I never stopped anyone from practicing their belief. Even on facebook I was expressing my religious beliefs and like you said, I have the right to do so. I didn't force anyone nor did I stop anyone from whatever beliefs they have. Even to you I said, you are entitled to your own opinion. It was you, who out of nowhere, took some offense and started all the attack. All I've done in all these comments is explained things which you asked for and defend my faith and give answers with reasoning and logic. Those answers didn't match with your opinion so all you could do was tag me as biased and radical. If being logical, reasonable and an encourager of truth is being "biased and radical" then I am proud to be all those things.

If America's attack on Iraq and Afghanistan is open-mindedness then I piss on all those "open-minded" freaks.

At the end of all this, if all you've got to say is I'm being radical then please don't bother replying. :)

Hindu
trying to defend the foolish acts is another foolish act- a simple advice to you.....don't try to compare anything without putting your brain into use( if you can ) .all you are speaking is the clear reflection of the islamic radicalism stuffed into you by ppl believing in anti-west approach.if you want to piss at something please do that in your bathroom as facebook is not the perfect place :).....i never took offence but YOU were the person who took every post as '' A Blatant Attack'' against your so called islam and acting foolish by speaking......(god knows).....hijab....west.....terrorism.....conspir acy.....alexander.....economics.....9/11..... dude are you crazy or jobless? :) you have the liberty to be proud of whatever you think of and if you think you have the ''incredible knowledge'' then be proud of that for you know that you were referring to the seventh class hindi supplementar y book when asked about the great epic Mahabharata.....:) In the end of all this,if all you want me not to reply , then please don't bother to post anymore illogical stuff ....:)

Muslim
Who brought up the false tale of Banu Fasarah? What were you trying to prove by bringing it up? I didn't start all this, you did. I did not invite you to my status asking for your opinion.

Hindu
false tale of Banu Fasarah?......dude read your books again....hahahaaaaa.......and invitation to your status????......are you living in the 19th century?......invitation???.......have you gone mad by the way by doing so much of what you call....''research'' :) hahahahaaaaaaa

Muslim
Alright, just answer the questions. That's it. The jokes are not funny. Just answer the following questions:

Banu Fasarah is nowhere mentioned in the Qur'an and you said you know about Islam only from the Qur'an. So tell me honestly where you came to know about Banu Fasarah from?

Who brought up the topic of Banu Fasarah on this status?

What were you trying to prove with it?

Hindu
yes enough of the jokes your jokes does not even look like one so you ansmwer me first . are you speaking after doing your so called ''research''????.........................did you READ WHAT I ASKED YOU TO READ?

Muslim
If you are talking about reading the following:

"Mohammed said ''A Nation Headed By A Woman Shall Never Succeed'' (ref. Hadid sahih bukhari,vol.5 ,page 136,Bukhari, vol.4, page 97;Nisai vol8,page 227;Hadith sahih Tirmidhi vol5,page 457)"

You are not the first person who has told me this. I've known this from a long time. The only reference you gave me to look up. So yes, I've read and researched this and answered it above in the conversation.

Now answer the questions which I asked!

Hindu
if you would have done just and biased ''research'' on the so called stuff you wont speak like that......leave the research it would be pain for you to search that too :)........well you want your answer right here it is........Dude go and read your Quran and it will explain you everything.....just keep this in your mind.......you should do a just and unbiased reading and research.........have the courage for that ?......and its not knowing dude.....its about getting the reality to light :)

Muslim
Why is answering just 3 questions of mine so difficult for you?

Hindu
actually i did'nt go to school so its difficult for me to answer questions HeHeHeHaw.......**** IT HAVE'NT you understud my previous post? or is it getting too windy up your brain? :)

Muslim
I got it all Bro. I got it all. Just answer those 3 questions.

Hindu
answer no.1 and 2. if you got it then there is the answer i asked you to do your ''research'' in a so called just and unbiased basis and you will get all your answers. . .answer no.3 : if you are unable to ''know what i was trying to prove'' then what were you blabbering from the start of the discussion?are you unaware of it? :) huh

why is that trying to make you think non-radical so hard?

Muslim
You can't answer my 3 questions and calling me a radical. You're being so radical in not answering my questions or should I say trying to escape?

Hindu
if you don't understand English then its not my problem.......if you say i am trying to escape then by default thats the first thing you will ever think about anyone who has got facts to prove you wrong and if you are not able to think anti-radical then its your problem :)

mere recitation of Glossary or the page numbers won't do anything......understanding the stuff is :)

Muslim
Fine man. I never thought you'd be so scared of answering 3 simple questions. Instead of answering, you're giving me excuses. I knew you to be better than that.

Hindu
if you think i am scared then yes i do....because you are the ''god of all the knowledge in this world and beyong''.....:) you should never had thought about me better than that :).......you are the boss man......you are the king of your world of imagination......:)...and yes ewww....eww....i am pretty scared by you.....HAHAHAHAAAAAAAAheeeeeehehe :)

Muslim
I'm happy that you admitted that at least. :)

Hindu
i am glab that you are happy......all i ever wanted is that :) i am even scared of typing as your posts are make facebook dirty but.....it won't matter anymore as you are happy that i am scared of you and you won't waste my precious time.........you won't right........:)........ewwwww (i am scared to ask even that)....HAHAHAHAAAAAAheeeeehoohohahaaaaaa
even my company's computers are afraid of your knowledge(cause they don't have the capacity to store it)......you ROCK \m/........(now get lost) :)

Muslim
I rest my case. You are free to blabber all you want but too scared to answer 3 simple questions. That proves a lot more than required.

Hindu
as i told you you are the king of your imaginary world and can imagine whatever you want to........for me you are an ignorant radical.....who is possibly jobless.....sitting all the day on facebook to blabber anything he wants to and trys to prove that his ''belief'' is the greatest.....u stink :)

i forgot....i rest my case too :)....hahahahaaaaaa
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