How does Islam view the apparitions of Mary?

[CuriousIncident]

Clearly they were real, but were they from Allah or not?

[Al-manar]

Clearly they were real, but were they from Allah or not?

nothing clear nor real about them

Some Protestant Christians and non-Christians regard claims of Marian apparitions as being hallucinations encouraged by superstition, and occasionally simply as deliberate hoaxes to attract attention. Many such apparitions are reported in economically depressed areas, attracting many pilgrims who bring trade and money into the region (wiki).


That is just one faked ,so called apparition,that was composed and directed by a coptic church in Egypt ...

(though the video in Arabic) yet you can notice the torch in the church ,that is turned on(minute 0:40) and off (minute 0:50) ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOuFH2iUPjU&feature=fvsr


some coptic church fathers eg; father Bishoy ,and preist Refat Fekri... admitted that such apparitions are fake and criticised those churches that fool the simple people....

their testimony :

acoording to the famous father Bishoy (the second man in the Egyptian coptic authority),such fake apparations is made for the simple people who are longing for anything miracelous,extraordinary !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qQlLGXW9xg
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQeYg...eature=related

sorry the videos in Arabic , anyway you can ask any Arab christian to verify my words....

[Al-manar]

double post sorry

[Tyrion]

Clearly they were real, but were they from Allah or not?

Clearly they weren't. And we view them the same way the rest of the (non Christian) world views them.

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[CuriousIncident]

Thank you everyone!

[Al-manar]

Thank you everyone!

you are welcome,CuriousIncident

Actually one of the most misleading propagandas in the religious world ,is the extraordinary claims ... not only the case of the catholic,orthodox christian claims of miracles of Mary,Saints etc.... but also the claims of healing with the name of Jesus ....... the issue goes even far to other world religions ,eg; hinduism etc....

countless reports of those adherents to such religions of not only they have a happy, spiritually fulfilling life without Jesus Christ, but also of extraordinary happenings in their communities ,including healing of desperate diseases etc....

Regards

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Extract;

In 1981 a group of five children were playing on a hill just outside of a village in the Yugoslavian Republic of Bosnia - Herzegovina called Medugorje when a vision of a beautiful woman claiming to be the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared before them. Since 1981 some seven to eight million pilgrims from different countries, cultures and Christian traditions have climbed up the holy hill of Medugorje. At 7:30 every evening pilgrims and tourists anxiously crowd around the dark rectory of a nearby church staring at the stream of light which will signify that once more the children, who still gather there daily, are having their private audience with the Blessed Mother. (IRF, Newsletter of the International Religious Foundation, Inc., Vol II, No. 6, Nov-Dec 1987, pp 1-2).

Divine grace (salvation) is felt to be especially potent in places visited by Jesus Christ or Saints or by Mary; where they have appeared in visions. Major pilgrimage centers include Lourdes where visions of the Virgin Mary were first seen in 1858 and where healing has been occuring since that time. (John R. Hinnells, ed., Dictionary of Religions, Middlesex, England: Penguin Books Ltd., 1984, p. 284)]. It also occurs to heretical Muslims who call on the dead or those not present, and the devils take the form of the one called upon even without him realizing it. I know of many cases where this has occurred and the people called upon have told me that they did not know that they were called upon, though those beseeching them for help saw their images and were convinced that it was the actual person. More than one person has mentioned that they called on me in times of distress, each telling a different story about how I have responded. When I told them that I never answered any of them nor did I know that they were calling on me, some said that it must have been an angel. I told them that angels do not benefit those committing SHIRK and that it was actually a devil trying to further misguide them.


Essay on Jinns - Bilal Phillips:
http://www.kalamullah.com/aqeedah17.html

[CuriousIncident]

Thank you all once again. I don't think I will ever believe it when someone says that they are seeing apparitions.

[MustafaMc]

It also occurs to heretical Muslims who call on the dead or those not present, and the devils take the form of the one called upon even without him realizing it.

I actually had a Catholic ask me this very question of the OP in person and I replied that I believed it was most likely a jinn that I explained was an evil spirit.

[CuriousIncident]

I think it might be a jinn as well, MustafaMc.

[Ramadhan]

Thank you all once again. I don't think I will ever believe it when someone says that they are seeing apparitions.

The apparitions might be true, but they could be from deceiving djinn, who are always trying their hardest to make us humans deviate from worshiping the One true God, Allah swt, and worship His creations instead.

[CuriousIncident]

I agree, Ramadhan. That is definitely possible

[UUSeeker]

you are welcome,CuriousIncident

Actually one of the most misleading propagandas in the religious world ,is the extraordinary claims ... not only the case of the catholic,orthodox christian claims of miracles of Mary,Saints etc.... but also the claims of healing with the name of Jesus ....... the issue goes even far to other world religions ,eg; hinduism etc....

countless reports of those adherents to such religions of not only they have a happy, spiritually fulfilling life without Jesus Christ, but also of extraordinary happenings in their communities ,including healing of desperate diseases etc....

Regards

Actually one of the most misleading propagandas in the religious world ,is the extraordinary claims ... not only the case of the catholic,orthodox christian claims of miracles of Mary,Saints etc.... but also the claims of healing with the name of Jesus ....... the issue goes even far to other world religions ,eg; hinduism etc....

countless reports of those adherents to such religions of not only they have a happy, spiritually fulfilling life without Jesus Christ, but also of extraordinary happenings in their communities ,including healing of desperate diseases etc....

I have a hard time with faith healers as well. They smack of snake oil and hoakum.


Peace,

Seeker

[UUSeeker]

Apologies for the double quote box.:embarrass

[CuriousIncident]

That's okay, UUseeker! No need to apologise :)

[Burninglight]

Some Protestant Christians and non-Christians regard claims of Marian apparitions as being hallucinations encouraged by superstition, and occasionally simply as deliberate hoaxes to attract attention. Many such apparitions are reported in economically depressed areas, attracting many pilgrims who bring trade and money into the region

Yes, Non Catholic Christians see that, but we also know that some of it may be real visions of demons impersonating Mary to keep Catholics stuck on paganism. I believe that Joseph Smith had either lied about his visions and as can be seen he plagiarized a lot from the Bible. We know cause he copied translational errors from the KJV or he really had visions of demons impersonating angels of God

[Ramadhan]

I believe that Joseph Smith had either lied about his visions and as can be seen he plagiarized a lot from the Bible. We know cause he copied translational errors from the KJV or he really had visions of demons impersonating angels of God

So paul of tarsus also lied about his visions and that's why he made a lot of errors in interpreting Jesus (pbuh) real teachings or paul really had visions of demons impersonating jesus (pbuh).

You have to draw the line somewhere.

[Burninglight]

So paul of tarsus also lied about his visions and that's why he made a lot of errors in interpreting Jesus (pbuh) real teachings or paul really had visions of demons impersonating jesus (pbuh).

You have to draw the line somewhere.

lol, you are reversing my words on me. I can see you don't like Paul and you say all kinds on untrue things about him even after I told you we Christians see him as important as you see Muhammad. Everyone one we have brought up has had visions including myself. How can we tell what is from God and what is not?

One way I judge is a prophet must pass the prophet's test. Test #1 is the prophet from a prophetic bloodline? 2. Does the prophet support prior revelation and is he supported by it? 3. Has the prophet performed a miracle and or given prophecy that has been fufilled? 4. does the prophet mention the name of God or know it?

Jesus spoke to Paul after knocking him off his high horse; people witness part of Paul's revelation. Paul had no reason to support what he believed to be a Christian cult. He was one of the elect Jewish leaders a Pharisee; he was respected. He goes from that to a despised person. He loses his reputation among the religious leaders only to suffer the Christian skeptics who judge him on what he use to be.

Jesus blinded him and asked why he was persecuting him. Paul was told what great things he was to suffer of Christ sake. Paul considered himself the chief of sinners. He was beaten and stoned many times for promoting Christ by obeying the heavenly vision almost to the point fo death. He continually warns people night and day with tears. He is heart broken that his fellow bethren don't see the truth. He dies a martyr's death.

I don't see any motive in Paul's life to deceive anyone. He brought clarity to the gospel and doesn't contradict any of it. Luke shows that Jesus predicted His own death three times and he worked with Paul. The salvation Paul speaks of is in line with what Jesus said: "NO man can come to the father (God) except through me" Paul doesn't say anything different. Paul doesn't mention the word trinity in the Bible, but the triunity of God is prevades the Bible independantly of Paul.

I see you share in with those as part of Paul's persecutors.

[Ramadhan]

lol, you are reversing my words on me. I can see you don't like Paul and you say all kinds on untrue things about him even after I told you we Christians see him as important as you see Muhammad. Everyone one we have brought up has had visions including myself. How can we tell what is from God and what is not?

Exactly.

Jesus (pbuh) never even met Paul, let alone appointed him as an apostle.
NONE of the apostles appointed by Jesus (pbuh) even referred to paul as apostle.

One way I judge is a prophet must pass the prophet's test. Test #1 is the prophet from a prophetic bloodline? 2. Does the prophet support prior revelation and is he supported by it? 3. Has the prophet performed a miracle and or given prophecy that has been fufilled? 4. does the prophet mention the name of God or know it?

Paul failed all of those tests.
prophet Muhammad (saw) fulfilled all of those tests.

Jesus blinded him and asked why he was persecuting him. Paul was told what great things he was to suffer of Christ sake. Paul considered himself the chief of sinners. He was beaten and stoned many times for promoting Christ by obeying the heavenly vision almost to the point fo death. He continually warns people night and day with tears. He is heart broken that his fellow bethren don't see the truth. He dies a martyr's death.

Any of these supported by anyone not named Paul or Luke (his traveling "companion" and "secretary")?

no.

[Burninglight]

Paul failed all of those tests.
prophet Muhammad (saw) fulfilled all of those tests.

How does Paul fail all the tests?

[Ramadhan]

How does Paul fail all the tests?

Among many things, paul/saul said that jesus had done away with mosaic laws, although jesus (pbuh) told everyone to keep the commandments and the laws. Jesus (pbuh) never taught three-in-one god and infact jesus (p) was VERY strict in commanding everyone to worship only the Father, and yet paul claimed Jesus (pbuh) was god who came to pay for sins with god's blood. etc etc.

tell me how Paul fulfilled the tests?

You claimed you are "true biblical christian", but do you even know that jesus never even met saul of tarsus, let alone appointing him as an apostle?
Do you even know that in bible, it was saul/paul himself who referred and self-appointed himself as an apostle?

[Burninglight]

Among many things, paul/saul said that jesus had done away with mosaic laws, although jesus (pbuh) told everyone to keep the commandments and the laws. Jesus (pbuh) never taught three-in-one god and infact jesus (p) was VERY strict in commanding everyone to worship only the Father, and yet paul claimed Jesus (pbuh) was god who came to pay for sins with god's blood. etc etc.

tell me how Paul fulfilled the tests?

You claimed you are "true biblical christian", but do you even know that jesus never even met saul of tarsus, let alone appointing him as an apostle?
Do you even know that in bible, it was saul/paul himself who referred and self-appointed himself as an apostle?

Please give Bible references of where Paul said these things.

[Ramadhan]

Please give Bible references of where Paul said these things.

I hope you actually have read bible. There are tons that Paul said which contradicted Jesus (pbuh), paul did not confirm Jesus (pbuh)

Here's among the things which he wrote that outright contradicted Jesus (pbuh)

Jesus (pbuh) and previous prophets NEVER taught God's incarnation and God (swt), but paul wrote:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. — Colossians 1:15-16

Jesus (pbuh) always commanded to only worship the One true God in deuteronomy, but Paul suggested Jesus (pbuh) as part of God:
Rom. 8:11, 2 Cor. 4:14, Gal. 1:1, Eph. 1:20, 1 Tim 1:2,

Jesus (pbuh) NEVER taught blood atonement, and yet Paul made much of blood atonement theology and Paul created the whole idea of Jesus (pbuh) as the sacrifical lamb:

²³ For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

"Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Ephesians 5:1-2

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ DIED for the ungodly. . but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ DIED for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the DEATH of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:6, 8-11

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you? unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ DIED for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that HE WAS RAISED on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, MOST OF WHOM ARE STILL ALIVE, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me." 1 Corinthians 15:1-8

Jesus (pbuh never claimed that he is god and rebuked people who even tried to treat him as such (why do you call me good) and he kept saying that he was ascending to "your god and my god", and yet paul claimed jesus is god:

“Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23)


Jesus (pbuh) commanded this:

Mat 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

And yet Paul abrogated Jesus (pbuh) commandments:
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4)

[Ramadhan]

Burninglight,

Did Jesus appoint saul of tarsus to be an apostle, or did he (pbuh) even ever met saul of tarsus?

Did any of Jesus' 12 apostles (ra) ever appoint or sanction saul of tarsus?

[Burninglight]

Did Jesus appoint saul of tarsus to be an apostle, or did he (pbuh) even ever met saul of tarsus?

Did any of Jesus' 12 apostles (ra) ever appoint or sanction saul of tarsus?

Jesus gave Paul a mission: Paul had to gain the trust of the apostles, but he eventually did

[Burninglight]

Jesus (pbuh) and previous prophets NEVER taught God's incarnation and God (swt), but paul wrote:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. — Colossians 1:15-16

Jesus said "I am the living bread that comes down from heaven; eat of this bread and drink the water He gives and you'll never thirst again. Jesus taught the lord's prayer "Give us this day our daily bread" that is not to say food, but it refers to the word of God. Man doesn't live on bread alone... He is the living bread of life out of heaven and out of His own mouth

[Ramadhan]

Jesus gave Paul a mission: Paul had to gain the trust of the apostles, but he eventually did

Give me the bible verses where Jesus gave paul mission.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus said "I am the living bread that comes down from heaven; eat of this bread and drink the water He gives and you'll never thirst again. Jesus taught the lord's prayer "Give us this day our daily bread" that is not to say food, but it refers to the word of God. Man doesn't live on bread alone... He is the living bread of life out of heaven and out of His own mouth

What you are saying here is: orange is a fruit. apple is a fruit. Therefore orange = apple.

Please give me the bible verses and their context and the whole passage.

We then can discuss from there.

[Ramadhan]

And please address my post #23

And please do not shy away from answering my question:

tell me how Paul fulfilled the tests?

[Burninglight]

Give me the bible verses where Jesus gave paul mission.

Read carefully, Acts 22: “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel^[b] according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day. ⁴ I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, ⁵ as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.
⁶ “As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. ⁷ And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ ⁸ And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ ⁹ Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand^[c] the voice of the one who was speaking to me. ¹⁰ And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ ¹¹ And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.
¹² “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, ¹³ came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. ¹⁴ And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; ¹⁵ for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. ¹⁶ And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ ¹⁷ “When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance ¹⁸ and saw him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.’ ¹⁹ And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. ²⁰ And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ ²¹ And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

[Burninglight]

I hope you actually have read bible. There are tons that Paul said which contradicted Jesus (pbuh), paul did not confirm Jesus (pbuh)

Here's among the things which he wrote that outright contradicted Jesus (pbuh)

Yes, I have and there are no contradiction I can find.

Jesus (pbuh) always commanded to only worship the One true God in deuteronomy, but Paul suggested Jesus (pbuh) as part of God:
Rom. 8:11, 2 Cor. 4:14, Gal. 1:1, Eph. 1:20, 1 Tim 1:2,

¹¹ If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus^[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
¹⁴ knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.
¹ Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— ² and all the brothers^[a] who are with me,
²⁰ that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
ABOVE ARE ALL THE VERSES YOU CITED; ALL THE APOSTLES SAY THE SAME ABOUT JESUS, AND NONE OF THEM CONTRADICT JESUS. EVEN JAMES CONSIDERED HIMSELF ¹, a servant^[a] of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, YOU HAVE SHOWN ME NO CONTRADICTION REGARDING PAUL HERE.

Jesus (pbuh) NEVER taught blood atonement, and yet Paul made much of blood atonement theology and Paul created the whole idea of Jesus (pbuh) as the sacrifical lamb:

Jesus celebrated the Passover with His disciples that involves blood atonement. Jesus predicted His death three times in the book of Luke. Read Isaiah 53. The Bible is replete with the sacraficing of lambs for sin atonement. Paul explain Jesus is the fufillement of the shadow of tradition practiced in the OT. Jesus is the Lamb of God. Even during the time of Passover when Moses ordered the blood of the lamb on their door post so the death angel would Passover. This was all a shadow of Jesus. Paul explains if you don't have the blood of Christ the death angel will not passover you but claim you for a Christless eternity. Paul explains that if someone (even an angel) teaches that Jesus Christ didn't die for sin, they are preaching a different Jesus and not the one from God and that they should be eternal ****ed or condemned

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

"Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Ephesians 5:1-2

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ DIED for the ungodly. . but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ DIED for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the DEATH of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." Romans 5:6, 8-11

"Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you? unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ DIED for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that HE WAS RAISED on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, MOST OF WHOM ARE STILL ALIVE, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me." 1 Corinthians 15:1-8

Jesus (pbuh never claimed that he is god and rebuked people who even tried to treat him as such (why do you call me good) and he kept saying that he was ascending to "your god and my god", and yet paul claimed jesus is god:

“Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23)


Jesus (pbuh) commanded this:

Mat 5:17-20 “Don’t think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

And yet Paul abrogated Jesus (pbuh) commandments:
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4)

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM" What do you think he meant? What do you think the Jews thought He meant when they wanted to stone Him for saying that? Jesus also said " I and my father are one" They wanted to stone Him another time for saying that why do you think??? I can find nothing wrong with the great apostle Paul. He angered many and suffered for preaching the truth. Jesus said, "No one can come to the father (God) except by me." Jesus said, "I AM the Alpha and the Omega the Beginning and the End... I have the keys to Hell and death; I come to judge the living and the dead!" If Paul calls Jesus Lord, He is justified in my minds eye. No prophet can compare to this decription of Jesus Christ and no prophet would dare if he were from God!

[Burninglight]

And yet Paul abrogated Jesus (pbuh) commandments:
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4)

Paul brings out that Jesus fufilled the law as Jesus states I come to fulfill the law. Now God's greatest commandment is to love Him with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. This fufills all the law and the prophets. IOW, Christ is our rest and on this hangs all the law and the prophets.

All rituals man does to try to get right with God is man's futile attempts to earn what God is not selling. Salvation is a gift This was Paul's message and this is the Bible's message revealed through Paul's ministry. Jesus chose him for that purpose. He was the right apostle for the mission imo!

[Hamza Asadullah]

Paul brings out that Jesus fufilled the law as Jesus states I come to fulfill the law. Now God greatest commandment is to love Gode with all your heart mind and soula nd your neighbor as yourself. This fufills all the law and the prophet. IOW, Christ is our rest and on this hangs all the law and the prophets. All rituals man does to try to get right with God is man's futile attempt to earn what God is not selling. Salvation is a gift This was Paul's message and this is the Bible's message revealed through Paul's ministry. Jesus choose him for that purpose. He was the right apostle for the mission!

Do you have proof that Jesus chose him? Give us HIS explicit words...

[Burninglight]

Originally Posted by Burninglight
Paul brings out that Jesus fufilled the law as Jesus states I come to fulfill the law. Now God's greatest commandment is to love Him with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. This fufills all the law and the prophet. IOW, Christ is our rest and on this hangs all the law and the prophets. All rituals man does to try to get right with God is man's futile attempt to earn what God is not selling. Salvation is a gift This was Paul's message and this is the Bible's message revealed through Paul's ministry. Jesus chose him for that purpose. He was the right apostle for the mission!
Do you have proof that Jesus chose him? Give us HIS explicit words...

I mentioned Paul's testimonny of being knocked off his horse and Jesus spoke to him. Do you need me to send you the source?

[Ramadhan]

Read carefully, Acts 22: “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel[b] according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day. 4 I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and delivering to prison both men and women, 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.
6 “As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ 8 And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ 9 Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand[c] the voice of the one who was speaking to me. 10 And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ 11 And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.
12 “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ 17 “When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw him saying to me, ‘Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.’ 19 And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 20 And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ 21 And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

Acts were written by Paul of tarsus.

Paul CLAIMED that he had mission from jesus (pbuh).

But as I asked you, AGAIN, please give me VERSES NOT WRITTEN by Paul or his constant partner, Luke, where Jesus directly gave mission to him.

[MustafaMc]

All rituals man does to try to get right with God is man's futile attempts to earn what God is not selling.

This is yet another false understanding that you have about Islam that you refuse to let go, despite whatever I or anyone else will write to the contrary. Muslims don't 'try to get right with God' or try to earn their salvation from the Hellfire by performing the ritual Islamic prayer exactly as Muhammad (saaws) did. Rather we say, "We hear and we obey the Messenger of Allah." and we put our faith and hope in the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah (swt). There is no Muslim who envisions that he will stand before Allah (swt) on Judgment Day and arrogantly say, "Since I performed my 5 daily prayers, fasted, paid charity due, and made pilgrimage, now show me my place in Paradise." Not even one who seemingly died as a martyr can boast of his salvation because the intention for his deed and his heart is known only by Allah (swt).

Salvation is a gift This was Paul's message and this is the Bible's message revealed through Paul's ministry. Jesus chose him for that purpose. He was the right apostle for the mission imo!

Paul was the 'right apostle for the mission', ROFLOL. Yes, someone who held the clothes of Stephen as he was being stoned to death for no other crime than following Jesus and who was first and foremost among the Jews in actively pursuing and arresting other followers of Jesus for a similar fate is the 'right man for the job' of revealing the true 'gospel' which he claims was a message received directly from the ascended Jesus. This 'gospel' was fundamentally different from the 'gospel' that Peter preached as the 'Apostle to the Jews' as illustrated by the first 2 chapters of Galatians.

You choose to follow Paul and I choose to follow Muhammad (saaws). Deen ukum wa liya deen - to you, your religion and to me, mine.

[Burninglight]

This is yet another false understanding that you have about Islam that you refuse to let go, despite whatever I or anyone else will write to the contrary. Muslims don't 'try to get right with God' or try to earn their salvation from the Hellfire by performing the ritual Islamic prayer exactly as Muhammad (saaws) did. Rather we say, "We hear and we obey the Messenger of Allah." and we put our faith and hope in the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah (swt). There is no Muslim who envisions that he will stand before Allah (swt) on Judgment Day and arrogantly say, "Since I performed my 5 daily prayers, fasted, paid charity due, and made pilgrimage, now show me my place in Paradise." Not even one who seemingly died as a martyr can boast of his salvation because the intention for his deed and his heart is known only by Allah (swt).

This is not what I believe of Islam!

Paul was the 'right apostle for the mission', ROFLOL. Yes, someone who held the clothes of Stephen as he was being stoned to death for no other crime than following Jesus and who was first and foremost among the Jews in actively pursuing and arresting other followers of Jesus for a similar fate is the 'right man for the job' of revealing the true 'gospel' which he claims was a message received directly from the ascended Jesus. This 'gospel' was fundamentally different from the 'gospel' that Peter preached as the 'Apostle to the Jews' as illustrated by the first 2 chapters of Galatians.

Paul wasn't the apostles' choice; they didn't trust him, but he was Jesus' choice.

You choose to follow Paul and I choose to follow Muhammad (saaws). Deen ukum wa liya deen - to you, your religion and to me, mine.

It will be awesome when Jesus returns to set the record straight. Don't you think?

[Hamza Asadullah]

Paul wasn't the apostles' choice; they didn't trust him, but he was Jesus' choice.

Quote for us where Jesus chose him in his OWN words? Please don't quote from the Gospels or Paul as you know they have absolutely no credibility even with Christian scholars let alone anyone else.

It will be awesome when Jesus returns to set the record straight. Don't you think?

It sure will. He will come to re-establish the oneness of God and break the cross which has been one of the main cause of idol worship for over 2000 years.

[Burninglight]

Quote for us where Jesus chose him in his OWN words? Please don't quote from the Gospels or Paul as you know they have absolutely no credibility even with Christian scholars let alone anyone else.

I cannot!

It sure will. He will come to re-establish the oneness of God and break the cross which has been one of the main cause of idol worship for over 2000 years.

:hiding:

[Hamza Asadullah]

I cannot!

Then are you not contradicting yourself? If God nor Jesus ever mentioned that you should put your trust in Paul then why do you? If Paul was to play such a fundamental role in Christianity surely God or Jesus would have mentioned him at least once.

The fact is that he was a "self proclaimed Prophet", and NOT a Prophet chosen by God nor was he ever mentioned by Jesus. So please stop saying that you only trust what is in the scriptures when you are in fact going against the scriptures.

[MustafaMc]

This is not what I believe of Islam!

So, the comment about rituals being man's futile attempt to get right with God had nothing to do with Islam. I would think others than myself would have read what you wrote as applying to Islam.

Paul wasn't the apostles' choice; they didn't trust him, but he was Jesus' choice.

Yes, Acts 1:21-22 illustrates the importance that the disciples placed on having personally witnessed Jesus' ministry while he walked on earth. Paul did not observe Jesus perform miracles or listen to his sermons or parables. Paul did not even go to the disciples to learn second hand what Jesus said and did. Is it not utterly revealing to you that Paul therefore did not preach about what Jesus said or did during his life on earth, but rather what he supposedly did on the cross? Do you not think that the doctrine of atonement would have been clearly elucidated by Jesus while he walked among his disciples and that these same disciples would have been first and foremost in preaching it? Paul basically negated Jesus' entire life and ministry with his red herring switchero of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection as the sole means for man's redemption.

It will be awesome when Jesus returns to set the record straight. Don't you think?

Brother Hamza beat me to the punch that Jesus will return to be a just ruler during the Last Days, break the cross, kill the pig and abolish the tax from non-Muslims. It will be awesome to see how he breaks the huge crosses that I have seen near Groom, TX and Effingham, IL.

[Burninglight]

Then are you not contradicting yourself? If God nor Jesus ever mentioned that you should put your trust in Paul then why do you? If Paul was to play such a fundamental role in Christianity surely God or Jesus would have mentioned him at least once.

How so?

The fact is that he was a "self proclaimed Prophet", and NOT a Prophet chosen by God nor was he ever mentioned by Jesus. So please stop saying that you only trust what is in the scriptures when you are in fact going against the scriptures.

Was Muhammad ever mentioned to be a prophet by Jesus? Does God call Muhammad a prophet?

[Burninglight]

Good night to this thread

[Ramadhan]

Was Muhammad ever mentioned to be a prophet by Jesus? Does God call Muhammad a prophet?

yes, Jesus mentioned about Muhammad (saw) when he said the comforter will arrive.

and yes, God calls Muhammad (saw) not only prophet, but messenger of God.

[MustafaMc]

yes, Jesus mentioned about Muhammad (saw) when he said the comforter will arrive.

Assalamu alaikum, yes, this is also my understanding from the passages in the Gospel according to John.