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Tyrion
01-20-2012, 08:24 PM
So, I was thinking... For those of you that grew up or spent most of your lives in western countries (Or who grew up on communities heavily influenced by western culture), how was the marriage process for you? I'm asking this to those of you who went about marriage in a really conservative way, without really ever getting to "know" your future husband/wife until shortly before or after the marriage. Was it as insanely awkward as it sounds? Is it difficult to get over the awkwardness and develop a romantic relationship, considering that you (as Muslims) have had very little exposure to relationships between members of the opposite sex? I'm just really curious. :p:
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Who Am I?
01-20-2012, 08:32 PM
:sl:

As a Western convert, I would like to know this myself. I'm nowhere near being ready for marriage yet, but if and when the time ever comes, this is something I would need to know.
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CosmicPathos
01-20-2012, 08:36 PM
the moment you start labeling certain pathways as conservative, it becomes obvious that you are not sure what you are asking for.

No, it is not awkward to marry someone and develop a relationship with them in an Islamic way.

They should do a similar video of "eastern" muslims with "western" Muslim.

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Tyrion
01-20-2012, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
the moment you start labeling certain pathways as conservative, it becomes obvious that you are not sure what you are asking for.

No, it is not awkward to marry someone and develop a relationship with them in an Islamic way.

They should do a similar video of "eastern" muslims with "western" Muslim.
Must you criticize everything? -__- Conservative is a word that has a meaning which I think was used correctly here. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm asking for, and I think only a fool would deny that there is an important distinction between "eastern" and "western" Muslims. Perhaps not as extreme as some would like to make it, but it's there. Now lets just stick to the topic and the questions that were asked, por favor.
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Who Am I?
01-20-2012, 08:48 PM
:sl:

I don't think brother Cosmic meant that in a condescending or disrespectful manner. I at least didn't take it as such.

He is right though in that I don't know what I want, other than to be a better man.
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CosmicPathos
01-20-2012, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

Must you criticize everything? -__- Conservative is a word that has a meaning which I think was used correctly here. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm asking for, and I think only a fool would deny that there is an important distinction between "eastern" and "western" Muslims. Perhaps not as extreme as some would like to make it, but it's there. Now lets just stick to the topic and the questions that were asked, por favor.
I was not criticizing. I am not sure what you are asking for. You are a Muslim? So you should be seeking marriage in an Islamic way? So you are saying Islamic way is conservative? Or are you saying that there are less conservative ways to get married while still sticking to Islamic ways?

Ooh trust me, after being on these forums, its clear to everyone to see the "divide" between "eastern" and "western" Muslims. Sh Munajjid is not qualified to call praising HP wrong just because he is not aware of the "nuances" of British culture.
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Aprender
01-20-2012, 09:33 PM
I'm curious Tyrion, do the Muslims in the West practice a different brand of Islam? I've noticed from your posts here you say things that indicate that...but I'm wondering what you're noticing exactly that's different in practice? I'm new to Islam so you'll have to excuse me if I might be a little blinded here.

Now I see in regards to "proper" dress for Muslim women in the U.S. is certainly not the same that you'd see in Saudi Arabia obviously. But I feel like I might be missing something? Are Western Muslims supposed to be less conservative because of the culture we live in? I'm not so sure I see it that way.

If that is so then the Muslim community where I live must be very conservative as they pretty much stick to the deen and they're a fairly young group of Muslims from my perspective but...Allah knows if they're good or not but I tell you many of the sisters and brothers around here are very respectful and stick to the religion which can be hard in a highly sexualized environment especially at the university. Because of that behavior, I've seen some barbie party girls and guys even enter the deen because they liked the way the Muslims around here behave...

I know it's a little off topic but in regards to marriage I don't see how it can be too awkward as once you get to the university level at least, you'll be interactive with people of the opposite sex in classes somewhat so I don't know if that exposure is so "little". I don't see the complete segregation of the sexes in our society...
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esperanza
01-21-2012, 02:21 PM
interesting post...one obversation i have,,,many western muslims...wh ohave reverted seem to muh more conservative or true to their religion than quite a number of bron muslims who get influenced by the western way whereas reverts are turning away from the western way
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Who Am I?
01-21-2012, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
the moment you start labeling certain pathways as conservative, it becomes obvious that you are not sure what you are asking for.

No, it is not awkward to marry someone and develop a relationship with them in an Islamic way.

They should do a similar video of "eastern" muslims with "western" Muslim.

:sl:

Wow.... just.... Wow.

Now I'm sitting here thinking of all the "brown" people I have met and wondering if I ever said anything that stupid to any of them. :hmm:

I do want to get one of those T-shirts, though. ;D
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Reflections
01-22-2012, 03:23 PM
Trust in Allah swt..that's the key point to rememeber. Theres the mixed emotions, but you'll knowfor yourself whether you see a future or not with the potential. As long as you do your istikhaara, have your parents dua's,have Allahs barakah and rahmah showering down and both parties-the girl and the guy are happy then inshaAllah it'll be fine. It isn't easy finding good proposals these days, so when you do get hold of one, don't let go of it.
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~Zaria~
01-22-2012, 06:12 PM
Assalamu-alaikum,

I think that the use of the term 'conservative' to describe practises followed, as prescribed in Islam - really should not raise so many eyebrows.

The unfortunate reality is, that muslims who chose to practise their deen as laid out in Quraan and Sunnah, are often labelled as 'conservative' - not just with regards to marriage, but many other aspects of life as well.

Take as examples:

- The muslim who does not watch TV/ goes to the movies/ listens to music.

- The young woman who choses to wear niqaab.

- The man who refuses to shake the hands of female collegues at work.....


The list is endless......

More often than not, these muslims - who are doing nothing more than practising their deen as commanded by Allah (subhanawata'ala) and His rasul (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) are labelled as being 'conservative'.
(I am facing this at present - needing to answer to my family/ work collegues as to why I have become so 'radical'. In actual fact, all that has changed is submitting to that which has been commanded to us all.)


With regards to the topic, Im really interested to hear the responses here.

You would expect that most muslim marriages have occured in this manner......reality, unfortunately tells a different story.....

In my opinion - when 2 people embark on marriage with the right intentions, knowing each others rights as husband and wife, and having the same goals in life - in serving Allah (subhanawata'ala) and working towards not this dunya, but the aakhirah.......then such a marriage is filled with unmentionable noor and barakat.

And loving someone - for the sake of Allah (and not stemming purely out of physical desire and infatuation) - is the most profound form of love that can exist between two people.


Salaam
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syed_z
01-22-2012, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
(I am facing this at present - needing to answer to my family/ work collegues as to why I have become so 'radical'. In actual fact, all that has changed is submitting to that which has been commanded to us all.)

Asalaam O alaikum...


The Prophet (saw) said “Islaam began as something strange and it will return to being strange as it began. So Toobaa is for the strangers.” "It was said: ‘Who are they, O Messenger of Allaah?’ He, sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, said: ‘Those who rectify (themselves/others) when the people have become corrupt.’”

Good news is for you sister MashA'Allah :)


A word of advise, be humble and not harsh with those who oppose you as im sure being patient is not easy when you have several people opposing you and pray for them..... InshA'Allah your humbleness will make them realize their errors.
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Rhubarb Tart
01-22-2012, 08:08 PM
:sl:

In my opinion - when 2 people embark on marriage with the right intentions, knowing each others rights as husband and wife, and having the same goals in life - in serving Allah (subhanawata'ala) and working towards not this dunya, but the aakhirah.......then such a marriage is filled with unmentionable noor and barakat.

No sorry I disagree. There is reason why scholars tells us to find compatible person, so factors you suggested is not enough. For instance, a brother might want a wife to stay with him and his mother. Now, you as potential do not want to, do you think that you have to accept because this brother is religious and practicing? No......

I would advise the person to get to know as much as they can.
There is Islamic way of getting to know each other via present of relative (brother, father, uncle).
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GuestFellow
01-23-2012, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
So, I was thinking... For those of you that grew up or spent most of your lives in western countries (Or who grew up on communities heavily influenced by western culture), how was the marriage process for you? I'm asking this to those of you who went about marriage in a really conservative way, without really ever getting to "know" your future husband/wife until shortly before or after the marriage. Was it as insanely awkward as it sounds? Is it difficult to get over the awkwardness and develop a romantic relationship, considering that you (as Muslims) have had very little exposure to relationships between members of the opposite sex? I'm just really curious. :p:
Salaam,

Well I'll share my first experience, since I already shared it to other members...very recently. O___o

I'm not married but I was about to get engaged,. My parents were eager to get me married, so I was introduced to this girl. It was extremely bizarre and very awkward. My face was so red and I tried my best not to burst out laughing. It didn't help that she was giggling. Most of the time, I didn't look at her, too shy.

I didn't knew nothing about her, except that she wants to work at a hospital and her educational background.

I found the entire process extremely embarrassing and tiring.

Oh and I would have behaved like this throughout the wedding. I'm too shy.
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~Zaria~
01-23-2012, 10:28 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
:sl:




No sorry I disagree. There is reason why scholars tells us to find compatible person, so factors you suggested is not enough. For instance, a brother might want a wife to stay with him and his mother. Now, you as potential do not want to, do you think that you have to accept because this brother is religious and practicing? No......

I would advise the person to get to know as much as they can.
There is Islamic way of getting to know each other via present of relative (brother, father, uncle).

Assalamu-alaikum,

This is true - the couple involved can get to converse in the presence of a mahram.
But for how long?
Weeks? Months?
Even this is insufficient time to really know a person.

If a couple both have the intention for nikkah......the families as well as the couple meet.......if they are agreeable, they go back home and read Istikharaah Salaah.
If both parties are satisfied thereafter - then a date for nikkah should be set.
Simple.

This basically means that you are seeking guidance from Allah on a critical decision in your life - and then, leaving the rest to the wisdom and plan of your Creator.

No matter how long one spends in 'getting to know' their potential spouse, pre-marriage - there will ALWAYS be differences of opinions that will crop up here and there - such as living arrangements, etc.
It may not happen immediately after the nikkah......these are matters that couples face throughout their marriage.

So, its not a reason to 'get to know each other as much as they can'.
This unfortunately does not gurantee anything.

However, a marriage based on the reasons I had mentioned above, has a much better chance of success, despite lifes challenges - if Allah wills.

Salaam :)
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Rhubarb Tart
01-24-2012, 12:00 AM
Salam,

Sorry I still disagree. What do you think the father should depend on? the potential family opinion?

Most family even when the person is NOT practicing often say good think about that person.

Do you think first, second or third visit is enough for a family to know that the potential has history of violence towards previous spouse, or the fact that s/he were married before, or they just want the green card or visa? Or the person had several partners putting you at risk of STDs?

Tbh it is up to the potentials and their families to choose how long it takes.

I encourage everyone to know as much as they can, because this is lifelong commitment. And few meetings between families and potentials where both sides exaggerate are not enough.

There was actually one lecture on the subject and I remember the scholar (he apologised for having to say it, but it must be done according to him) advises potentials to make sure they and whomever they want to marry have full health check! I will find the lecture ishallah and post it here.

And another thing, these disagreements such as living arrangements can cause marriage breakdown. Both parties should know what they want other than a religious person and make it clear to their potentials. And put it on a marriage contract.

No point getting married then having a marriage crisis two weeks later ( I know of couple that got divorced within three weeks because one of them found out the other don’t and wont practice).
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GuestFellow
01-24-2012, 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106

Do you think first, second or third visit is enough for a family to know that the potential has history of violence towards previous spouse, or the fact that s/he were married before, or they just want the green card or visa? Or the person had several partners putting you at risk of STDs?
Salaam,

I agree that we should find out as much as we can about the potential spouse. But, there are limits. Like STDs. It does not sound practicable to learn about the other person's sexual history. It would be very awkward to raise this issue.

And another thing, these disagreements such as living arrangements can cause marriage breakdown. Both parties should know what they want other than a religious person and make it clear to their potentials. And put it on a marriage contract.
I have to agree here. I personally would not marry a women who puts her career first.
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~Zaria~
01-24-2012, 07:32 PM
:wasalamex


Under ideal circumstances, someone close to You, and who has Your best interests at heart - introduces you to a potential spouse.
In this way, you can be more trusting of his/ her opinion (as they will be wanting the best for you).

I do realise, that in reality - this does not happen as often as we would like.

I am not suggesting that we consider for marriage any stranger who knocks on our door.
We have to take our own precautions, and get members of the family to research the persons background as thoroughly as possible.

BUT: do understand that even if you were to meet your potential spouse multiple times - does this mean you can not be fooled?
How many meetings will it actually take to find out about someones criminal record, how many partners they have had, or any history of violence?
10? 20? 30?

Tbh, its as easy to hide such facts for months......years......until oneday the truth is revealed.

Which is way we put our faith in Allah.
We turn to HIM for guidance - by means of Istikhaarah salaah.
We ask Allah (subhana wata'ala):

"......Oh Allah! If in Your Knowledge this action ------------------------------------------------ (which I intend to do) is better for my religion and faith, for my life and end [death], for here [in this world] and the hereafter then make it destined for me and make it easy for me and then add blessings [baraka'] in it, for me. O Allah! In Your Knowledge if this action is bad for me, bad for my religion and faith, for my life and end [death], for here [in this world] and the hereafter then turn it away from me and turn me away from it and whatever is better for me, ordain [destine] that for me and then make me satisfied with it.'


Place your trust in Allah.
Your Rabb only wants what is best for you.
Ya, SubhanAllah!

But, WE need to do our part in this as well......by seeking marriage in the correct way, and in the manner shown to us by our Nabi (sallahu alaihi wasalam).


If you do not agree with this, then this is fine.....

We can chose to agree.....to disagree here :)

Salaam
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Tyrion
01-24-2012, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
I agree that we should find out as much as we can about the potential spouse. But, there are limits. Like STDs. It does not sound practicable to learn about the other person's sexual history. It would be very awkward to raise this issue.
Are you joking? I think that's definitely an important and practical question to ask a potential spouse... Would you rather wake up one morning to find out that the weird feeling in your pants is some STD your wife gave you? Awkward or not, it's important.


Anyway, keep the answers coming. :D
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GuestFellow
01-24-2012, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

Are you joking? I think that's definitely an important and practical question to ask a potential spouse... Would you rather wake up one morning to find out that the weird feeling in your pants is some STD your wife gave you? Awkward or not, it's important.


Anyway, keep the answers coming. :D
Salaam,

Easy to be said than done. Imagine meeting your first potential spouse. During a conversation, you say, hey lovely, do you have Sexually Transmitted Diseases? How do you think she will react? If I was her, I would probably slap you and storm out.

How would you put this in practice without offending her?
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Tyrion
01-24-2012, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Easy to be said than done. Imagine meeting your first potential spouse. During a conversation, you say, hey lovely, do you have Sexually Transmitted Diseases? How do you think she will react? If I was her, I would probably slap you and storm out.
I didn't say it would be easy/not awkward, but I also didn't say to do it in the most tactless way possible... It's an important question, and two mature adults who are looking to spend the rest of their lives together should be able to have a conversation about it at some point before things get too serious.
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GuestFellow
01-24-2012, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

I didn't say it would be easy/not awkward, but I also didn't say to do it in the most tactless way possible... It's an important question, and two mature adults who are looking to spend the rest of their lives together should be able to have a conversation about it at some point before things get too serious.
Salaam,

I understand but how would you ask this question? Give me an example.
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Tyrion
01-25-2012, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
but how would you ask this question?
No idea, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't. Both people will be adults looking to marry each other, so I think its expected that the conversation will reach some awkward points, especially if they don't have much experience dealing with the opposite sex. Although, I'd imagine that this would be easier and more appropriate after a few meetings, and not right off the bat.

But yeah, this is the kind of stuff I'm wondering about, and part of the reason I asked the original question. :p: Has everyone who's done this just had to grit their teeth and go through one of the most awkward periods of their life? I almost can't imagine it... -__-
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GuestFellow
01-25-2012, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

No idea, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Salaam,

Like I said, it's not practicable.
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Tyrion
01-25-2012, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Like I said, it's not practicable.
But it is.

Do you really need me to write out a possible conversation for you to see it's important and practical? You just ASK. "Hey, we've been getting to know each other for a while, and I really want to go forward with this... But I think we should talk about [Insert awkward but important topic here] before we move on, if that's alright with you..." and etc, etc...
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GuestFellow
01-25-2012, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

But it is.

Do you really need me to write out a possible conversation for you to see it's important and practical? You just ASK. "Hey, we've been getting to know each other for a while, and I really want to go forward with this... But I think we should talk about [Insert awkward but important topic here] before we move on, if that's alright with you..." and etc, etc...
Salaam,

Go ahead. Type the conversation out. If it was practicable, then you ought to have presented an example, rather than saying, no idea. *throws confetti*
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Tyrion
01-25-2012, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Go ahead. Type the conversation out. If it was practicable, then you ought to have presented an example, rather than saying, no idea. *throws confetti*
I... Just... Did... :heated: It shouldn't be this hard to imagine a conversation... Do you consider any difficult conversation to be impractical and therefore something to be avoided?
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GuestFellow
01-25-2012, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

I... Just... Did... :heated:
Oh so it goes like this:

Tyrion's potential spouse: so what is your favourite colour?

Tyrion: ah it's blue...listen I got to ask you a question.

Tyrion's potential spouse: okay...

Tyrion: don't take this the wrong way, but do you have STD? You see, I don't want to get married to a person who has STD....

Tyrion's potential spouse: :skeleton:

Would the conversation go like this?

It shouldn't be this hard to imagine a conversation... Do you consider any difficult conversation to be impractical and therefore something to be avoided?
Difficult conversations does not mean it is impracticable. Like I had to have difficult conversations with clients but it was practicable. If something is impracticable, I would avoid it. o_O
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CosmicPathos
01-25-2012, 11:38 PM
tragic typos, why is not it possible? It is totally possible. My convo will go something like this.

"Hey, so as we are kind of interested in pursuing this, I am willing to give it a chance. Even though we have just me, being a skeptical person that I am, I think we can do much more to solidify this further. I think its about time where I ask you some uncomfortable questions, and you can also ask me the same. If you happen to not like this approach and do not want to carry on further, that is fine with me. I am sure someone else would be willing to answer it, and that would only make me want to marry them more. I am sure you also have a line of other potential suitors. So let's get serious. I'd like you to be tested for STDs from a doctor of my choice, just for everyone's safety. You can expect the same from me, if you are willing to ...."

That's just a template. Fill in your details.
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joyous fairy
01-26-2012, 02:57 AM
Assalam alaykum,

I have noticed a big difference in the way Pakistani Muslims in Pakistan go about looking for spouses and those that are in the UK. In Pakistan I think nearly all of them have arranged marriages to cousins or distant relatives. The kids dont really have the opportunity to look for someone themselves. I am just talking about village people here, not too sure about those living in cities, but I am assuming its a similar process.

For example, in the UK young Muslims tend to start looking while at uni, either by asking peers or some using online sites to find someone. This way is much more independent and usually involves the kids having to introduce the potential to the parents! Which is quite opposite to the traditional Pakistani way.

Me personally, sometimes I feel like giving up and just marrying who my parents say. I have not actually looked for someone but have had a few proposals lol. The reason I feel like giving up is because I have seen marriages breaking up that have been based on the kids' personal choices. But I have seen this happening in arranged marriages too, so I am left thinking is it really worth it? Going through all that effort in finding someone and then it ending in disaster. Especially if your parents want you to marry someone that they want you to marry.

Nobody is perfect and I dont think anyone will find someone who is perfect, so what is the point in looking for a perfect somone?

Anyway, Tragic Typos, I think asking about STD's is kind of important. What you could do is hint at it, or get a test done for yourself and show them the result, without having to actually say it and they should hopefully understand that you want them to get tested.
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CosmicPathos
01-26-2012, 04:39 AM
Originally Posted by joyous fairy
In Pakistan I think nearly all of them have arranged marriages to cousins or distant relatives. The kids dont really have the opportunity to look for someone themselves. I am just talking about village people here, not too sure about those living in cities, but I am assuming its a similar process.
What a blinded view of people of Pakistan. Pakistanis, at least the ones living in urban centers, which themselves are much older than the cities of UK, are much more sophisticated, depending on education level, social status and their religiosity.

Marrying relatives and cousins? You seem to be just repeating the stereotype. It is all about what people prefer. If partner of preference happens to be one's cousin, so be it. Moreover, many Pakistanis from UK actually go to Pakistan to find rishtas.
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CosmicPathos
01-26-2012, 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by joyous fairy
For example, in the UK young Muslims tend to start looking while at uni, either by asking peers or some using online sites to find someone. This way is much more independent and usually involves the kids having to introduce the potential to the parents! Which is quite opposite to the traditional Pakistani way.
That is because these Muslims are raised up in a kaafir environment, so they are accustomed to the cultures of kufaar, and go on a hunt for a spouse themselves. In Pakistan, where things are much more conservative and where young people give much more preference to the opinions and thoughts of their elders, they go about by what their parents suggest, explore, and if they dont like it then ignore. My parents suggested some ppl to me, and I rejected them because I was not interested in those particular people, and that is fine with my parents. If parents happen to find someone who is related to the concept of time (hint hint tragic typos), I wont mind that at all.

Of course that is changing in Pakistan. Now all public parks in Pakistan are full of young unmarried couples dating, kissing or hugging each other. Thanks to the cultures of kufaar.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/326519/i...ks-of-karachi/
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ardianto
01-26-2012, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
tragic typos, why is not it possible? It is totally possible. My convo will go something like this.

"Hey, so as we are kind of interested in pursuing this, I am willing to give it a chance. Even though we have just me, being a skeptical person that I am, I think we can do much more to solidify this further. I think its about time where I ask you some uncomfortable questions, and you can also ask me the same. If you happen to not like this approach and do not want to carry on further, that is fine with me. I am sure someone else would be willing to answer it, and that would only make me want to marry them more. I am sure you also have a line of other potential suitors. So let's get serious. I'd like you to be tested for STDs from a doctor of my choice, just for everyone's safety. You can expect the same from me, if you are willing to ...."

That's just a template. Fill in your details.
Really a very rude manner in talking with a woman who will marry you.
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~Zaria~
01-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Assalamu-alaikum,

It seems that many here are missing the point of the sunnah way of marriage......


In any case, with regards to asking a potential spouse to be tested for STIs - this is fine....but I just want to understand this further:

- If you are chosing to marry the potential suitor based on their perceived piety and taqwa.....then how do STIs feature in this equation? (is he/ she a promiscious......yet pious person? .....Interesting!^o))
And if the person in question is a reformed and steadfast muslim after a colourful past.......then, turn to Allah in Istikaarah - and make a decision thereafter.



- And yes, I am aware that it is not possible to determine your potential spouses past sexual behaviour from an initial meeting.

Which is why it is useful to have close family members/ friends who are interested in YOUR interests to be doing background checks on the person in question.
And still......you may never know the entire truth......
But does it matter, if you have read Istikharaah Salaah, and have chosen to be guided by Allah (subhanawata'ala) - the Knower of all that is in the past and the future?

Also, please realise that not all STIs can be tested for.
We can test for HIV, syphillus and hepatitis (which by the way - these viruses can have a 'window period' in the initial few weeks after infection - when the test will produce a falsely negative result.)

And, if these are negative - it does not exclude other STIs, e.g gonorrhoea, herpes (that are not tested for), to name a few.


At the end of the day - its only reliance on Allah (subhanawata'ala) that is going to give you the BEST answer to the question: Should I marry, or should I not marry so-and-so......

Not weeks and months of 'getting to know someone'.
Not laboratory tests.
Not the persons smile, or his/ her fancy words.

If only we could understand this.......

Salaam
Reply

GuestFellow
01-26-2012, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
tragic typos, why is not it possible? It is totally possible. My convo will go something like this.

"Hey, so as we are kind of interested in pursuing this, I am willing to give it a chance. Even though we have just me, being a skeptical person that I am, I think we can do much more to solidify this further. I think its about time where I ask you some uncomfortable questions, and you can also ask me the same. If you happen to not like this approach and do not want to carry on further, that is fine with me. I am sure someone else would be willing to answer it, and that would only make me want to marry them more. I am sure you also have a line of other potential suitors. So let's get serious. I'd like you to be tested for STDs from a doctor of my choice, just for everyone's safety. You can expect the same from me, if you are willing to ...."

That's just a template. Fill in your details.
Salaam,

It is likely most people will get offended and don't even bother to get married. They will find another partner.
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CosmicPathos
01-26-2012, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

It is likely most people will get offended and don't even bother to get married. They will find another partner.
wsalam,
then their loss. I am not dying to marry them. If someone cannot accept this much skepticism and the quest for the truth that can affect my future life, they do not deserve to marry me. I look at it that way.
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CosmicPathos
01-26-2012, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Really a very rude manner in talking with a woman who will marry you.
I do not see any rudeness in it. Rather a yearning for truth, even if it hurts someone. I've been hurt many a times too by some questions that ppl asked of me, its a cycle that should keep on repeating.
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CosmicPathos
01-26-2012, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
If you are chosing to marry the potential suitor based on their perceived piety and taqwa.....then how do STIs feature in this equation? (is he/ she a promiscious......yet pious person? .....Interesting!)
I think that is because people can fake piety.

Moreover, it is not necessary that STDs were transferred sexually. Someone might just have picked up herpes from their female friend during their skin contact.
Reply

Reflections
01-26-2012, 07:25 PM
I personally don't agree with what cosmicpathos and tyroin have said regarding bringing up that issue. I agree with Tragic..it is not something you can 'just go about asking'. And if that's something you're going to ask a sister in the first meeting (which some people will just have and base their decision on whether to agree marrying that person or not) OR a few meetings or whatever -it's not an issue that a sister is exactly going to be find comfortable to be asked or even answer for that matter.
Reply

~Zaria~
01-26-2012, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
I think that is because people can fake piety.
Indeed, this is what I am trying to say :)

The question to ask, is: why do we place so little value on this incredible gift of istikhaarah?


“And your Lord said: ‘Invoke Me and ask Me for anything, I will respond to your (invocation).
Verily, those who scorn My worship [i.e. do not invoke Me, and do not believe in My Oneness, (Islamic Monotheism)] they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!’”
[Ghaafir 40:60]


Allah says in Surah Ale Imraan verse 160:

"If Allah helps you none can overcome you: if He forsakes you who is there after that that can help you?
In Allah then let believers put their trust."


Istikharaah is sunnah, brothers and sisters.

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to teach his companions to pray istikhaarah in all things, just as he used to teach them soorahs from the Qur’aan.
Narrated by al-Bukhaari.
Not potentially offensive-to-ask-for blood tests..... :aboo:

Not months and months of getting acquinted with a non-mahram man/ woman.



Is there any other deen that has the benefit of this sunnah?

What a blessing to this ummah!
SubhanAllah!

Our direct link to our Rabb - the knower of the unseen; the past, the present and the future - is through duaa.


Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Moreover, it is not necessary that STDs were transferred sexually. Someone might just have picked up herpes from their female friend during their skin contact.
Yes akhi.....this is true for oral infections.
Other, intimate areas are transmitted sexually.


Salaam
Reply

Tyrion
01-26-2012, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by TalibahMuslimah
I personally don't agree with what cosmicpathos and tyroin have said regarding bringing up that issue. I agree with Tragic..it is not something you can 'just go about asking'. And if that's something you're going to ask a sister in the first meeting (which some people will just have and base their decision on whether to agree marrying that person or not) OR a few meetings or whatever -it's not an issue that a sister is exactly going to be find comfortable to be asked or even answer for that matter.
I don't agree with Cosmic's way of asking the question as it comes off as incredibly rude, and you obviously wouldn't be bringing this up the first few times you meet in most cases. But you can't deny that its an important question that needs to be asked before a marriage commitment is made. Adults should be able to have serious conversations about things like this without being rude or being offended, and like I've said before, when two adults get together to talk about marriage, this is something they should expect to talk about. I don't care if you feel like its a bit personal, the fact is two people are trying to get married. If ever there was a time for personal questions, it would be then. The alternative is some poor guy/girl marrying someone with a shady but secret past, only to wake up one morning with an incurable disease on a very unpleasant place. Lets be realistic here.

On that note though, I'd appreciate it if we could try and step away from this and go back to the main topic... We seem to have gotten really caught up with this STD issue.
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joyous fairy
01-26-2012, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
What a blinded view of people of Pakistan. Pakistanis, at least the ones living in urban centers, which themselves are much older than the cities of UK, are much more sophisticated, depending on education level, social status and their religiosity.

Marrying relatives and cousins? You seem to be just repeating the stereotype. It is all about what people prefer. If partner of preference happens to be one's cousin, so be it. Moreover, many Pakistanis from UK actually go to Pakistan to find rishtas.
Read my post again please! I did say I was speaking about village people.

And the cousins/relatives thing, that is what I have seen in most of the Pakistani people, the ones I have met so that is my view based on what I have seen.
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CosmicPathos
01-26-2012, 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by TalibahMuslimah
I personally don't agree with what cosmicpathos and tyroin have said regarding bringing up that issue. I agree with Tragic..it is not something you can 'just go about asking'. And if that's something you're going to ask a sister in the first meeting (which some people will just have and base their decision on whether to agree marrying that person or not) OR a few meetings or whatever -it's not an issue that a sister is exactly going to be find comfortable to be asked or even answer for that matter.
I do not see how my question is rude, it is not insulting or judgmental but very respectful. Yes it is direct and surgically sharp. But if someone takes offense with being open and concise and straight, it is actually not my problem to deal with. If you guys did not find the approach useful, fair enough, I did not take offense, as you can develop your own way to ask the question which you might find "less rude". Whatever floats one's boat.

The fact remains though, Islam has allowed us to ask the person we are marrying if he/she is virgin. If that then why not about the past.
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ardianto
01-27-2012, 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
I do not see any rudeness in it. Rather a yearning for truth, even if it hurts someone. I've been hurt many a times too by some questions that ppl asked of me, its a cycle that should keep on repeating.
I see a rudeness. Maybe because I live in Eastern.

Bro, that's suitable only for those who familiar with free sex. But if you propose a marriage to a Muslim girl you should avoid talk about STD.
Reply

ardianto
01-27-2012, 08:23 AM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

Well I'll share my first experience, since I already shared it to other members...very recently. O___o

I'm not married but I was about to get engaged,. My parents were eager to get me married, so I was introduced to this girl. It was extremely bizarre and very awkward. My face was so red and I tried my best not to burst out laughing. It didn't help that she was giggling. Most of the time, I didn't look at her, too shy.

I didn't knew nothing about her, except that she wants to work at a hospital and her educational background.

I found the entire process extremely embarrassing and tiring.

Oh and I would have behaved like this throughout the wedding. I'm too shy.
She was giggling?. That's good, bro, she likes you. If she dislike you she would not giggling.

Awkward and embarrassed in that situation is normal. Later when you start to familiar with her you will not feel awkward and embarrassed again. Even in the future, the time when you felt awkward and embarrassed would become a beautiful memory for you and your wife.

:)
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GuestFellow
01-27-2012, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
wsalam,
then their loss. I am not dying to marry them. If someone cannot accept this much skepticism and the quest for the truth that can affect my future life, they do not deserve to marry me. I look at it that way.
:sl:

Depends on how you define loss.

Originally Posted by Tyrion

I don't agree with Cosmic's way of asking the question as it comes off as incredibly rude,
Salaam,

How would you do it then? It is likely it will come across as rude, even if you don't mean it.
There are many people that got married and didn't end up with a partner who has STDs.

If you want to ask the question, go ahead lol.

Originally Posted by ardianto
She was giggling?. That's good, bro, she likes you. If she dislike you she would not giggling.

Awkward and embarrassed in that situation is normal. Later when you start to familiar with her you will not feel awkward and embarrassed again. Even in the future, the time when you felt awkward and embarrassed would become a beautiful memory for you and your wife.

:)
Salaam,

Yeah. o_o

Though we are not getting married because I said no.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
01-27-2012, 07:37 PM
:sl:


lol


People are not using their common sense. STD questions should be asked AFTER both parties agree to marry each other. BOTH should go to the clinic and get FULL health check not just for STD.

Trust me; no one wants to wake up having HIV or Chlamydia.

And some people do change but might not know they have caught something from their past…..just saying.

There are people that know they have HIV, but don’t tell anyone. This does not only happen to people who sleep around but one woman who was tearful because her HUSBAND passed HIV knowing full well he had it. He is in jail.

Some of these STDs can do damage if undetected and some are permanent but is manageable (HIV).

It up to people to turn a blind eye but i managed to ask :)
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GuestFellow
01-27-2012, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
:sl:


People are not using their common sense. STD questions should be asked AFTER both parties agree to marry each other. BOTH should go to the clinic and get FULL health check not just for STD.
:wa:

I declare sweet106 the champion of this thread. I agree with you.
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CosmicPathos
01-27-2012, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
I declare sweet106 the champion of this thread. I agree with you.
so lets say the person is found to have HIV, chlamydia, syphillis, past history of bacterial vaginosis and pelvic inflammatory disease, hpv etc, after they have agreed to marry, then what?
Reply

Tyrion
01-27-2012, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
I declare sweet106 the champion of this thread. I agree with you.
I think its preferable to ask these questions right before agreeing to marry, instead of after... If the other person happens to have an STD, it'll be worse if you find out AFTER you agree. I have no idea why you suddenly seem to support her view, when we're both essentially saying this is a question that needs to be asked to potential marriage partners... And that was what you had an issue with... Asking it after you agree to marry wouldn't exactly make it less awkward.. Instead, it could potentially make it a much more difficult situation. Once again, start being a little realistic.

Now, lets move on.
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GuestFellow
01-27-2012, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
so lets say the person is found to have HIV, chlamydia, syphillis, past history of bacterial vaginosis and pelvic inflammatory disease, hpv etc, after they have agreed to marry, then what?
Salaam,

You don't get married. It is as simple as that. End it and move on.
Reply

GuestFellow
01-27-2012, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion


I think its preferable to ask these questions right before agreeing to marry, instead of after... If the other person happens to have an STD, it'll be worse if you find out AFTER you agree. I have no idea why you suddenly seem to support her view, when we're both essentially saying this is a question that needs to be asked to potential marriage partners... And that was what you had an issue with... Asking it after you agree to marry wouldn't exactly make it less awkward.. Instead, it could potentially make it a much more difficult situation. Once again, start being a little realistic.
.
Salaam,

Are you upset that I agree with her? :p:

I was looking at the situation that would benefit me. I would find it more comfortable to raise the issue after agreeing to get married if I think it is necessarily. Also I like how sister sweet106 worded her post too.

Originally Posted by sweet106
STD questions should be asked AFTER both parties agree to marry each other. BOTH should go to the clinic and get FULL health check not just for STD.
I agree that a full health check should take place after both sides agree to get married if I think it is necessarily.
Reply

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