/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Islam 'recognizes homosexuality'



CosmicPathos
03-13-2012, 02:11 AM
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2...uality039.html

Homosexuals and homosexuality are natural and created by God, thus permissible within Islam, a discussion concluded here Thursday.
Moderate Muslim scholars said there were no reasons to reject homosexuals under Islam, and that the condemnation of homosexuals and homosexuality by mainstream ulema and many other Muslims was based on narrow-minded interpretations of Islamic teachings.
Siti Musdah Mulia of the Indonesia Conference of Religions and Peace cited the Koran's al-Hujurat (49:3) that one of the blessings for human beings was that all men and women are equal, regardless of ethnicity, wealth, social positions or even sexual orientation.
"There is no difference between lesbians and nonlesbians. In the eyes of God, people are valued based on their piety," she told the discussion organized by nongovernmental organization Arus Pelangi.
"And talking about piety is God's prerogative to judge," she added.
"The essence of the religion (Islam) is to humanize humans, respect and dignify them."
Musdah said homosexuality was from God and should be considered natural, adding it was not pushed only by passion.
Mata Air magazine managing editor Soffa Ihsan said Islam's acknowledgement of heterogeneity should also include homosexuality.
He said Muslims needed to continue to embrace ijtihad (the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the Koran and the Sunnah) to avoid being stuck in the old paradigm without developing open-minded interpretations.
Another speaker at the discussion, Nurofiah of the Nahdlatul Ulama (NU), said the dominant notion of heterogeneity was a social construction, leading to the banning of homosexuality by the majority.
"Like gender bias or patriarchy, heterogeneity bias is socially constructed. It would be totally different if the ruling group was homosexuals," she said.
Other speakers said the magnificence of Islam was that it could be blended and integrated into local culture.
"In fact, Indonesia's culture has accepted homosexuality. The homosexual group in Bugis-Makassar tradition called Bissu is respected and given a high position in the kingdom.
"Also, we know that in Ponorogo (East Java) there has been acknowledgement of homosexuality," Arus Pelangi head Rido Triawan said.
Condemnation of homosexuality was voiced by two conservative Muslim groups, the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) and Hizbut Thahir Indonesia (HTI).
"It's a sin. We will not consider homosexuals an enemy, but we will make them aware that what they are doing is wrong," MUI deputy chairman Amir Syarifuddin said.
Rokhmat, of the hardline HTI, several times asked homosexual participants in attendance to repent and force themselves to gradually return to the right path.



WHO ARE THESE IDIOTS???
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Aprender
03-13-2012, 02:30 AM
So desperate to be accepted by the West that they'll make anything halal.
Reply

جوري
03-13-2012, 02:34 AM

Reply

Ramadhan
03-13-2012, 03:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
So desperate to be accepted by the West that they'll make anything halal.
Siti Musdah Mulia received a LOT of fundings from US and European Aid agencies. I know this for a fact.
She is one of those "scholars" whom Allah SWT warns us against: they would try misinterpret and sell scriptural verses for peanuts.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Abz2000
03-13-2012, 04:16 AM





we're not homophobic, we just wanna save them the pain.
their choice as long as they keep it behind closed doors.
Reply

ardianto
03-13-2012, 05:05 AM
Majority of Indonesian Muslims are moderate, but not including people like Siti Musdah Mulia, she is liberal.

And easy to understand if Rido Triawan defend homosexuality, he is from "Arus Pelangi", or "Rainbow Stream" in English. Easy to understand what organization this is.
Reply

ardianto
03-13-2012, 09:48 AM
"In fact, Indonesia's culture has accepted homosexuality. The homosexual group in Bugis-Makassar tradition called Bissu is respected and given a high position in the kingdom.
"Also, we know that in Ponorogo (East Java) there has been acknowledgement of homosexuality," Arus Pelangi head Rido Triawan said.
There are hundreds cultures in Indonesia. Rido must be know about it, and he must be know too that homosexuality is not acceptable in Indonesia.

Bissu are "priests without gender" in pre-Islam animism belief in Bugis-Makasar. Actually the Bissu are supposed to curb their sexual desire, but many of them had 'boyfriends' that called "to boto". But after Islam came to Bugis-Makasar, this animism belief and its Bissu is not acceptable again.

In Ponorogo (East Java) there are martial art masters who called "warok". But different than martial art masters in China or Japan, warok use magic to make them powerful. This magic requires them to not doing sexual relationship with female. So, they had "gemblak", young male who became their 'wives'. But now warok are not much like in the past, also there are warok who have real females as their wives.

But other Indonesia's cultures do not recognize homosexuality.

Although Indonesia is the country that has largest number of Muslims, homosexual people are exist there. However, their movement is not so free like in the West. Heterosexual people can accept gays,lesbians, and (especially) transvestites to live among them, but cannot tolerate homosexual activities. Anybody knows?, the little Obama's nanny is transvestites.

However, some of them want to get bigger freedom like in The West. And they approach the liberal 'Muslims' because those liberal ...... I think everyone here knows how those liberal are.
Reply

aadil77
03-13-2012, 10:36 AM
;D ran out of reps again
Reply

Pygoscelis
03-13-2012, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Although Indonesia is the country that has largest number of Muslims, homosexual people are exist there.
Homosexual people exist everywhere. It is only a matter of how accepted they are and how much they have to hide their sexual orientation and pretend to be heterosexual. In some places they are accepted openly, can marry, and carry little stigma or bigotry against them. In other places they are hated and even killed.

I thought it was hillarious when Ahmadinijad (or however you spell it) answered a question about homosexuals in Iran by saying "Oh, we don't have homosexuals in Iran". Apparently they have to go so far underground there that people don't even think they exist. :hiding:
Reply

White Rose
03-13-2012, 04:19 PM
Good thing we were warned against these kinds of people. :raging:
Reply

ardianto
03-13-2012, 04:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Homosexual people exist everywhere.
I know. But what I meant was, public know they are homosexual. Few of men who I know personally are gays. I am not close to those gays, but I have few transvestites friends.
Reply

إحسان
03-13-2012, 05:14 PM
This is it guys. The end of the world. :omg:
Reply

جوري
03-13-2012, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Apparently they have to go so far underground there that people don't even think they exist.
That would be acceptable yes.. do you know about anyone's sex life here?
I think it is funny you suggest that we have to not only acknowledge but accommodate people who define themselves by their sexual acts...
This is normal to you? That's how you want to be perceived in meetings, or when you got a job interview or when you're sitting in a restaurant?
Are you for real?
Reply

White Rose
03-13-2012, 05:50 PM
Sorry for being off topic but wasn't there a hadith stating that gays will have a mosque of their own?
Sorry if I twisted some words. I tried finding it on google but I couldn't. :exhausted
Reply

GuestFellow
03-13-2012, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Homosexual people exist everywhere. It is only a matter of how accepted they are and how much they have to hide their sexual orientation and pretend to be heterosexual. In some places they are accepted openly, can marry, and carry little stigma or bigotry against them. In other places they are hated and even killed.

I thought it was hillarious when Ahmadinijad (or however you spell it) answered a question about homosexuals in Iran by saying "Oh, we don't have homosexuals in Iran". Apparently they have to go so far underground there that people don't even think they exist. :hiding:
To be fair, Ahmadinejad was joking. He was not treated with respect when a university invited him for a talk. He was joking when he said Iran has no homosexuals, I don't think he took some of the questions seriously. In another interview, he said acknowledged gay people exist in Iran.

I think most hate comes from men. Most heterosexual men find it gross to have sex with another man. Some guys get paranoid and start to think everyone gay man will fall for them and will try to have sex with them. Sounds like a case of narcissism. They also assume most gay men will engage in anal sex, but this is not true.

format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

That would be acceptable yes.. do you know about anyone's sex life here?
I think it is funny you suggest that we have to not only acknowledge but accommodate people who define themselves by their sexual acts...
This is normal to you? That's how you want to be perceived in meetings, or when you got a job interview or when you're sitting in a restaurant?
Are you for real?
Salaam,

There is a presumption that everyone is straight. This presumption is rebutted when someone admits that they are homosexual.

Sometimes, people suspect other people are homosexual, probably due to the way they behave. In this circumstances, should they lie about their sexual orientation or tell the truth when confronted?

Of course, well all know, homosexuality is not the sin unless if people were to put it into practice.
Reply

جوري
03-13-2012, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
In this circumstances, should they lie about their sexual orientation or tell the truth?
.
No one is under any obligation to share that kind of information, it isn't included in your passport, driver's license, birth certificate or job application unless folks lobby for that next thus I think it is a non-question..
This isn't a variation on the norm any more than necrophilia is and pushing it down everyone's throat won't make it anymore so.

:w:
Reply

GuestFellow
03-13-2012, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

No one is under any obligation to share that kind of information, it isn't included in your passport, driver's license, birth certificate or job application unless folks lobby for that next thus I think it is a non-question..
This isn't a variation on the norm any more than necrophilia is and pushing it down everyone's throat won't make it anymore so.

:w:
:wa:

In theory, no one has to reveal their sexual orientation. In practice, people can be put under pressure to reveal their sexual orientation. What if a parent asks this question? At school/college/university? Even in court, if relevant, people may be asked to reveal their sexual orientation. Today, people are always questioning other people's sexual orientation.

I think there is nothing wrong with people being honest. However, if they start to boast about their sexual orientation, then it makes me very uncomfortable.
Reply

جوري
03-13-2012, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
:wa:

In theory, no one has to reveal their sexual orientation. In practice, people can be put under pressure to reveal their sexual orientation. What if a parent asks this question? At school/college/university? Even in court, if relevant, people may be asked to reveal their sexual orientation. Today, people are always questioning other people's sexual orientation.

I think there is nothing wrong with people being honest. However, if they start to boast about their sexual orientation, then it makes me very uncomfortable.
No one is under pressure to reveal anything, this is an unusual conjectural scenario ..
People now a days are only too happy to reveal their sexual orientation it is en vogue.. they're not the poor sods everyone is making them out to be, it is even a common reoccurring theme in media I keep waiting for them to integrate it into kids programming the way they promote pre marital sex and runaway hooker clothing to 8 year olds...

:w:
Reply

Pygoscelis
03-13-2012, 07:03 PM
Since you asked me....

I don't think it should be a problem for people to walk down the street holding the hand of their wife or husband. I think they should be allowed to have romantic diners in restaurants. I don't think they should be excluded from tax breaks or insurance benefits or other spousal benefits (though I'm actually not sure such things should exist either). I don't think they should have to hide that somebody is their significant other, their husband, their soul mate, whatever. I'm not to keen on watching them kiss in public, though I don't feel they should be killed, jailed, or fined for it. I feel the same way about all of this with homosexuals as with heterosexuals.
Reply

Pygoscelis
03-13-2012, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
the way they promote pre marital sex and runaway hooker clothing to 8 year olds...
I got a chuckle reading that while seeing a "Snorg Tees" add sponsoring this forum and showing a lady in skimpy underpants.
Reply

Pygoscelis
03-13-2012, 07:10 PM
Double post - delete.
Reply

جوري
03-13-2012, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Since you asked me....
It was in rhetoric .. I find all the above appalling and off putting except for their governmental issues if they're recognized by a secular govt. it is fine so long as it isn't imposed on all other establishments religious or educational & especially not family units..
Reply

GuestFellow
03-13-2012, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

No one is under pressure to reveal anything, this is an unusual conjectural scenario ..
Salaam,

There is always going to be some form of pressure. Many students experience these forms of pressure. If they don't reveal it, they will be seen as being strange and some people will make fun of them. This usually takes place at school/college/university. Not everyone is emotionally strong and cope with taunts from other people.

People now a days are only too happy to reveal their sexual orientation it is en vogue..
That is a broad generalisation. Not all people are comfortable in revealing their sexual orientation, especially if they are homosexual or even asexual.

I doubt most gay Muslims will tell their parents that they gay, unless if they are looking for a death wish.

they're not the poor sods everyone is making them out to be, it is even a common reoccurring theme in media I keep waiting for them to integrate it into kids programming the way they promote pre marital sex and runaway hooker clothing to 8 year olds...
I don't think people are making homosexuals to be the victims. Of course, homosexuals have been victims of beatings and verbal abuse. So yes, they can be victims but not all of them.

Not all homosexuals attend gay pride and flaunt their sexuality. Some keep it a secret.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Since you asked me....

I don't think it should be a problem for people to walk down the street holding the hand of their wife or husband. I think they should be allowed to have romantic diners in restaurants. I don't think they should be excluded from tax breaks or insurance benefits or other spousal benefits (though I'm actually not sure such things should exist either). I don't think they should have to hide that somebody is their significant other, their husband, their soul mate, whatever. I'm not to keen on watching them kiss in public, though I don't feel they should be killed, jailed, or fined for it. I feel the same way about all of this with homosexuals as with heterosexuals.
Some Arab men hold hands in Arab countries, though culturally that is not considered bizarre. Public display of affection is completely forbidden in Islam. Find a room, please. Then again, I have never seen homosexuals kiss in public. It is mostly straight people, even Muslims. :skeleton:

As for restaurants, who cares. Just go there to eat. You don't have to have a table specifically made for homosexuals and a table specifically made for heterosexuals.

As for financial benefits, they should only be available to men and women that are married, since they have children and will need all the support that they can get. You may argue, gay people can adopt children (allowing them access to financial benefits), but I'm against this.
Reply

GuestFellow
03-13-2012, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
It was in rhetoric .. I find all the above appalling and off putting except for their governmental issues if they're recognized by a secular govt. it is fine so long as it isn't imposed on all other establishments religious or educational & especially not family units..
Salaam,

I take a serious issue with allowing gay people to adopt. At a minimum, gay people should not allowed to suffer physical or verbal abuse. That is all. They don't need financial benefits. Religious establishments are forced to accept homosexual practices and this is ought not to be tolerated.
Reply

aamirsaab
03-13-2012, 07:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

and pushing it down everyone's throat won't make it anymore so.

:w:

Reply

جوري
03-13-2012, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab

The consensus of folks don't like it off the other end ....:skeleton:
Reply

جوري
03-13-2012, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
I doubt most gay Muslims will tell their parents that they gay, unless if they are looking for a death wish.
If God forbid I had a kid who was under that impression I think I'd be more heartbroken than going psycho on him although I can see where others might totally flip and lose it..

:w:
Reply

Pygoscelis
03-13-2012, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
As for financial benefits, they should only be available to men and women that are married, since they have children and will need all the support that they can get.
Should this be restricted to heterosexual couples with children then? Would you exclude unmarried couples with children? If your issue is supporting children, then why look at this as hetero vs homosexual and not child rearing and non child rearing couples?

Do you think homosexual couples should get the same access heterosexual couples get with insurance and government benefits, in alimony proceedings following separation, in visitation rights in hospitals, in the default rules for wills and estates, in other matters where spouses have rights? Benefits and rights having nothing to do with children I mean.
Reply

CosmicPathos
03-13-2012, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
To be fair, Ahmadinejad was joking. He was not treated with respect when a university invited him for a talk. He was joking when he said Iran has no homosexuals, I don't think he took some of the questions seriously. In another interview, he said acknowledged gay people exist in Iran.

I think most hate comes from men. Most heterosexual men find it gross to have sex with another man. Some guys get paranoid and start to think everyone gay man will fall for them and will try to have sex with them. Sounds like a case of narcissism. They also assume most gay men will engage in anal sex, but this is not true.



Salaam,

There is a presumption that everyone is straight. This presumption is rebutted when someone admits that they are homosexual.

Sometimes, people suspect other people are homosexual, probably due to the way they behave. In this circumstances, should they lie about their sexual orientation or tell the truth when confronted?

Of course, well all know, homosexuality is not the sin unless if people were to put it into practice.
there is a reason why many females make good friends with gays.

i know "hijabi sisters" who hang out with openly gay guys cuz well "they are soo nice and soo cute." And it is people like this who put me off away from Islam as organized religion. Hypocrite ppl.
Reply

Al-bint
03-18-2012, 05:06 PM
isnt it one among the signs of qiyamah that homosexual imams will lead prayers and homosexual muslims will pray behind him and it will be considered normal... ?

the more and more am I becoming convinced that the of reckoning is close!

wasalaam
Reply

Karl
10-31-2016, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
So desperate to be accepted by the West that they'll make anything halal.
Absolutely and they make halal haram too e.g. they impose state enforced age restrictions in marriage to conform with the cultural Marxist West. I do not know why South and South East Asia is so sycophantic and worshipping of the West. Why do they have no self respect?
Reply

kiran29
11-01-2016, 12:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Absolutely and they make halal haram too e.g. they impose state enforced age restrictions in marriage to conform with the cultural Marxist West. I do not know why South and South East Asia is so sycophantic and worshipping of the West. Why do they have no self respect?
Maybe, for example that Indonesia, had in the past, colonized for 350 years by the dutch?

And most of the modern curriculum in schools giving the image that the west are symbol of advanced society and technology?

Been brainwashed until now...
Reply

Karl
11-01-2016, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kiran29
Maybe, for example that Indonesia, had in the past, colonized for 350 years by the dutch?

And most of the modern curriculum in schools giving the image that the west are symbol of advanced society and technology?

Been brainwashed until now...
You have a point but if the Dutch had so much influence why are the Indonesians not Christians? I believe the manipulation is quite modern and has to do with "aid" (bribes) and pressure from the West.
The West is advanced because they are warmongers following the dark path. Why would the Indonesians want to follow when they live in a tropical paradise? I suppose money and materialism is the reason they are destroying their country.
The South Asians have been brainwashed by the British Raj and independence was in name only I suspect.
Reply

kritikvernunft
11-02-2016, 08:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by kiran29
And most of the modern curriculum in schools giving the image that the west are symbol of advanced society and technology?
Math and science are not "western" methods and their resulting technology is not a "western" endeavour.

Concerning math, the Kitab Al-Jabr which introduces algebra -- next to what the Greek already mastered, i.e. arithmetic and geometry -- has an Islamic origin. Same for the Kitab fi isti'mal al-adad al-hindi ("About the hindu numerals"). Concerning science, i.e. statements that are backed by repeatedly and experimentally verifying a claim for counterexamples, they just harness the laws of nature, which are obviously not tied to one particular culture.

Progress came more often from particular areas during past time periods, but I wonder why that would be an issue, since the laws of nature are the same everywhere on earth? Furthermore, we don't know from what area progress will come next, especially because people tend to collaborate nowadays over the internet. So, the next area will probably be the internet! ;-)
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!