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truthseeker63
03-16-2012, 10:36 AM
To be honest I don't agree with Homosexuality but what about Homosexuals who are celibate should they be killed under Islamic law known as Sharia for having Homosexual desires or feelings for the same sex or are Homosexuals only killed for the act ? Many Homosexuals say it is unfair for Hetrosexuals to demand that Homosexuals be celibate when Hetrosexuals have sex in my view if Homosexuals desire sex and or a family they should marry a person of the opposite sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celibacy
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'Abd-al Latif
03-16-2012, 11:01 AM
:salamext:

Bro the distinction is as simple as this: you are either gay or you aren't. What you've done after that is only going to make things worse. It cannot be said that 'it is OK to be homosexual as long as you don't practise your desires'.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (rahimullah) said:

With regard to homosexuality some of the scholars said that the hadd punishment for it is the same as the hadd punishment for zina, and it was said that it is less than that. But the correct view on which the Sahaabah were unanimously agreed is that both are to be killed, the active and the passive partners, whether they are married or not. The authors of al-Sunan narrated from Ibn Abbaas (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Messener (:saws1:) said: "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done." And Abu Dawood narrated from Ibn 'Abbaas concerning the unmarried person who commits a homosexual act that he said: He is to be stoned. And something similar was narrated from ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allah be pleased with him). The Sahaabah did not differ concerning the ruling that the homosexual is to be executed, but they differed concerning the methods. It was narrated from Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he is to be burned, and from others that he is to be executed.

It was narrated from some of them that a wall is to be knocked down on top of him until he dies beneath it.

And it is said that both should be detained in the foulest of places until they die.

It was narrated from some of them that he should be taken up to the highest place in the town and thrown down from it, to be followed with stones, as Allah did to the people of Loot. This was narrated from Ibn 'Abbaas. According to the other report, he is to be stoned. This was the view of the majority of the salaf. They said: because Allah stoned the people of Loot, and stoning is prescribed for the zaani by analogy with the stoning of the homosexual. Both are to be stoned, whether they are free or slaves, or one of them is the slave of the other, if they have reached the age of puberty. If one of them has not reached the age of puberty, he is to be punished but not stoned, and none is to be stoned except one who has reached puberty. (Al-Siyaasah al-Shar’iyyah, pg. 138)
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ardianto
03-16-2012, 11:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
It cannot be said that 'it is OK to be homosexual as long as you don't practise your desires'.
:salamext:

Can we punish someone for something that is not his fault?.

No one wants to be homosexual. If they could choose they would choose become heterosexual, but life made them become homosexual. Like like this is absolutely not easy. They must struggle to eliminate their desire because they know is sin if they do sexual relationship with same gender. There are many of them failed in this matter. But there are some of them who do not give up and always try to bring themselves closer to Allah. Some of them had been failed, but they try to repent, and try to bring themselves closer to Allah too.

Should we punish those who are in trial but try to walk on the way of Allah?.
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'Abd-al Latif
03-16-2012, 02:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
:salamext:

Can we punish someone for something that is not his fault?.

No one wants to be homosexual. If they could choose they would choose become heterosexual, but life made them become homosexual. Like like this is absolutely not easy. They must struggle to eliminate their desire because they know is sin if they do sexual relationship with same gender. There are many of them failed in this matter. But there are some of them who do not give up and always try to bring themselves closer to Allah. Some of them had been failed, but they try to repent, and try to bring themselves closer to Allah too.

Should we punish those who are in trial but try to walk on the way of Allah?.
Being homosexual is a choice, not an innate quality. Lut said to his people: "...'Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinn)? (80) 'Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins).'" (Qur'an 7:80-81).

Innately we are all Muslim (submitters to Allah, His law and command) until the parents make their children a Jew, Christian or otherwise. Innately, by our natural disposition, by our common sense and natural instincts we have a desire to be with the opposite gender unless one's heart deviates and becomes perverted and corrupt.

Having said this, a homosexual should be called towards what is right and correct and given a chance to repent and mend their ways. If they refuse then the Islamic stance is clear about their affairs.
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TrueStranger
03-16-2012, 02:44 PM
I was watching a show where a homosexual claimed to have been a celibate for more than 25 years. The dude was old. I think the act of committing a homosexual act is a choice. As for attraction, I do not know if that is much of a choice. Can a person, whether a man or a woman, truly know why they are attracted to a certain type of beauty?
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ardianto
03-16-2012, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Being homosexual is a choice,
Being homosexual is not a choice. But practicing homosexual, it's a choice. Yes, there's no homosexual who "born this way". They become homosexual because the bad experiences that they never expect. But then they face two choices, follow they wrong desire to same gender, or try to control their desire to prevent them fall into sin.

What Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (rahimullah) said actually about those who practicing homosexuality, not about homosexual who always try to control their desire. But you did not differentiate it in the statement that I have quoted in my first post. That's why I need to argue you.

This is discussion, isn't this. :)
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Abu.Yusuf
03-16-2012, 03:33 PM
it is a sin and deviating from nature to be homosexual [to even have the feeling or desire for it]

As for the punishment, the Shariah punishments are for those commit crime on their tongue or actions - not for their hearts. This is because as Muslims we do not judge peoples hearts, but only the persons actions. So a person would be punished based on that and not just for having desires. If he implements his desires then the punishment would apply and he could also be punished for propagating it as well.
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جوري
03-16-2012, 03:55 PM
Hate the sin not the sinner..

:w:
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CosmicPathos
03-16-2012, 04:05 PM
is hate the sin not the sinner thing mentioned in Quran? If that is teh case then why would Allah put sinners in Hellfire? Obviously Allah hates sinners (those who dont repent) as well as their sins.
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Scimitar
03-16-2012, 04:12 PM
From my understanding, if the homosexual repents from his sin and promises to refrain from doing it ever again, he can escape execution. Is this correct or not?

Scimi
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جوري
03-16-2012, 05:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
is hate the sin not the sinner thing mentioned in Quran? If that is teh case then why would Allah put sinners in Hellfire? Obviously Allah hates sinners (those who dont repent) as well as their sins.
We don't really know who is sinning do we? It is indeed for Allah swt to judge.. I have posted here the story of a Muslim man who struggled with homosexual feelings, used to have SSE and feel like crap and his struggles and prayers to get over them.. he eventually got married (to a woman) had children and started a website to help other people who love Allah more than deviant sex do the same..

:w:
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KDhieb
03-16-2012, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

We don't really know who is sinning do we? It is indeed for Allah swt to judge.. I have posted here the story of a Muslim man who struggled with homosexual feelings, used to have SSE and feel like crap and his struggles and prayers to get over them.. he eventually got married (to a woman) had children and started a website to help other people who love Allah more than deviant sex do the same..

:w:
salam sister,
where have you posted this story?
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جوري
03-16-2012, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KDhieb
salam sister,
where have you posted this story?
:wa:
on this forum & several times. Perhaps a mod can find it on one of our numerous homosexuality threads..

:w:
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GuestFellow
03-16-2012, 09:16 PM
Salaam,

First, let's define some terms here.

Homosexuality means when you are sexually attracted to people of the same gender. People can be attracted to the most unusual living beings and objects. You have people that are attracted to children, some are attracted to animals while others are attracted to objects. I have head some people are attracted to dead bodies.

Sexual attraction is not a choice. You can control who you have sex with. There is a clear distinction between sexual attraction and the sexual act. As long as homosexuals do not have sex with people of the same gender, they have not committed a sin. It is as simple as that.

If you people believe sexual attraction is punishable by death, then you might as well execute all the married Muslim men who are attracted to women (other than their wife), even though they have not committed adultery.

Hope you see where I'm going with this.
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truthseeker63
03-16-2012, 09:21 PM
From my understanding, if the homosexual repents from his sin and promises to refrain from doing it ever again, he can escape execution. Is this correct or not?

Scimi

Can someone answer this question ?
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GuestFellow
03-16-2012, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
:salamext:
It cannot be said that 'it is OK to be homosexual as long as you don't practise your desires'.
:wa:

So if your attracted to a girl who you are not married to, does that mean you committed a sin? Since your a guy, I'm certain you must have like many women, as most men do. :p:

What is your definition of a homosexual anyway?

Some feelings cannot be eliminated. Like anger cannot be eliminated but it can be controlled.
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truthseeker63
03-16-2012, 09:23 PM
From my understanding, if the homosexual repents from his sin and promises to refrain from doing it ever again, he can escape execution. Is this correct or not?

Scimi

Is Scimi correct ?
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GuestFellow
03-16-2012, 09:31 PM
^ It depends. Usually homosexuals will get executed if they had sex in public...eww.
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'Abd-al Latif
03-16-2012, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Being homosexual is not a choice. But practicing homosexual, it's a choice. Yes, there's no homosexual who "born this way". They become homosexual because the bad experiences that they never expect. But then they face two choices, follow they wrong desire to same gender, or try to control their desire to prevent them fall into sin.

What Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (rahimullah) said actually about those who practicing homosexuality, not about homosexual who always try to control their desire. But you did not differentiate it in the statement that I have quoted in my first post. That's why I need to argue you.

This is discussion, isn't this. :)
Bro, being homosexual is a choice. No one is born homosexual nor does a human being by their natural disposition desires the same gender – ever. Allah created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. This is proven by the ayah that I quoted of Lut in my last post where the Prophet of God clearly says that it was a practise never done before; in other words the people chose this way.

Now as for one who had bad experiences, you've pretty much answered this question yourself i.e. the bad experiences is what caused them to be who they are from how Allah naturally created them, but to chose from one's heart to be a homosexual was still a choice and to continue to be this way was still a decision they made. The heart is free to choose what it wants and no one can compel it in any way or form to love or desire something. So with this understanding it can be confidently said that there is no difference between the one who is homosexual and the one who acts upon their desires (except that the latter is worse!); just as there is no difference between a man and woman dating and those who commit zina in their relationship because it is too close to the act of zina itself. Both are doing wrong but the one's who are satisfying their desires are in a worse state than just dating. No Muslim in his right mind will make dating or anything of the sort as anything less than strictly forbidden because one chooses celibacy! What would then be the case of a repugnant and abhorrent act of homosexuality?

And finally, Ibn Taymiyah's quote clearly mentions those who are passive and active are to be punished.
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'Abd-al Latif
03-16-2012, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
:wa:

So if your attracted to a girl who you are not married to, does that mean you committed a sin? Since your a guy, I'm certain you must have like many women, as most men do. :p:

What is your definition of a homosexual anyway?

Some feelings cannot be eliminated. Like anger cannot be eliminated but it can be controlled.
Akhi, let's break this down.

First, attraction and even love is pretty much initiated by oneself and no one else is to blame for this. This happens by just a single look. No one asked you to look, you make a conscious decision and it resulted in feelings. If this look was unintentional and you still have feelings then Allah is testing you with it to see what you will do.

Second, when one loves someone else we never, ever have to ask "does he like the same gender or the opposite gender" because naturally it is eccentric to find one attracted to the same gender. We always expect to have feelings for the opposite gender and anything different to this is – and always has been – considered deviated. And rightly so.

Third, the 'look' can be broken down in two categories:

1 - If this was to look at the one whom you wanted to marry and it resulted in you having feelings for that person then there is nothing wrong with that. But you will be held accountable if you act upon these feelings. This is proven in the hadeeth where the Messenger :saws1: asked Allah not to hold him accountable for what he is not in control of (i.e. that he loved one of his wives ('Aisha) more than the other wives);

2 - If this look was a careless gaze, then this is of the poison arrows of shaytan where he is trying to trap you into sin. Again you will not be held accountable for your feelings but you will be held accountable for what you do;

Forth, all the definitions of homosexuality that I hold are what the Qur'an and Sunnah say and that is that it is Islamically considered to be a homosexual when one acts upon the thoughts and feelings for the same gender. Anything more than that is obviously included.
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GuestFellow
03-16-2012, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Forth, all the definitions of homosexuality that I hold are what the Qur'an and Sunnah say and that is that it is Islamically considered to be a homosexual when one acts upon the thoughts and feelings for the same gender. Anything more than that is obviously included.
Salaam,

But homosexuality means sexual attraction. It does not indicate whether a homosexual has acted upon those urges. I think I have a more strict interpretation of the term homosexuality.
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CosmicPathos
03-16-2012, 11:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

But homosexuality means sexual attraction. It does not indicate whether a homosexual has acted upon those urges. I think I have a more strict interpretation of the term homosexuality.
do you have homosexual feelings? seems from the way you are defending it.

is it normal to having feelings for having sex with dead bodies in graves? necrophilia? would you think that is a deviation or just an "innocent" desire?
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'Abd-al Latif
03-16-2012, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

But homosexuality means sexual attraction. It does not indicate whether a homosexual has acted upon those urges. I think I have a more strict interpretation of the term homosexuality.
Bro, I don't understand the reason why you are taking it from so many different angles and missing the point that answers everything. What I am trying to say here is acting upon any of one's thoughts and feelings towards the same gender. By the thoughts and feelings I mean anything that has to do with attraction whether it's physical or emotional. Sexual relationships are obviously the pinnacle of it all but if that doesn't happen but other forms of perverted attraction are present then yes it counts Islamically as homosexuality.

This definition is from the Islamic perspective and not the western, logical, philosophical perspective or any other perspective for that matter. This is the only perspective that counts and it encompasses everything I've mentioned.
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جوري
03-17-2012, 12:08 AM
btw here's the group started by the guy who chose to not be a homosexual:
Description

homepage 1?typesn - As-salaamu 'alaykum!

- Muslim and worried that you might be "gay"?
- Wondering how to deal with your same-gender attractions?
- Looking for advice from Muslims in a similar situation, as well as counsellors?

This group was established by the StraightWay Foundation with the aim of providing a safe environment of interaction and mutual support for same-gender attracted Muslims.

The main areas of focus will be understanding the issues from an Islamic perspective and finding ways to deal with homosexual temptations in accordance with the laws of Allah (SWT).

Some members have successfully overcome their desires - others are still struggling - yet others are here to provide Islamic and psychological guidance.

If you have privacy concerns, please make yourself an anonymous e-mail address before signing up.


If you simply want some information related to the subject, please see the Eye on Gay Muslims blog: http://gaymuslims.wordpress.com


I am sure his story is on there too..

:w:
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GuestFellow
03-17-2012, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
do you have homosexual feelings?
Salaam,

Why? Are you interested? :p:

seems from the way you are defending it. is it normal to having feelings for having sex with dead bodies in graves? necrophilia? would you think that is a deviation or just an "innocent" desire?
No, I do not have homosexual feelings, nor am I attracted to dead bodies. If I did, I would have said so. I have a relative who is homosexual and he is so misunderstood. He's been bullied from quite a young age and now lives a quiet life. His parents respect him, but most of his relatives and brothers hate him. Even though he has never practiced homosexuality, many Muslims still judge him and treat him as though he is mentally disturbed. How can I not have sympathy for him.

I think as long as people do not act upon their sexual urges and keep it under control, then it is fine. We all experience anger at some point. As long as we control it and don't act upon these urges, then it is fine.


format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Bro, I don't understand the reason why you are taking it from so many different angles and missing the point that answers everything. What I am trying to say here is acting upon any of one's thoughts and feelings towards the same gender. By the thoughts and feelings I mean anything that has to do with attraction whether it's physical or emotional. Sexual relationships are obviously the pinnacle of it all but if that doesn't happen but other forms of perverted attraction are present then yes it counts Islamically as homosexuality.

This definition is from the Islamic perspective and not the western, logical, philosophical perspective or any other perspective for that matter. This is the only perspective that counts and it encompasses everything I've mentioned.
Salaam,

So to make it clear, do you believe it is a sin to experience sexual attraction outside of marriage? Or do you believe it is a sin when you act upon them outside of marriage? That is all I want to know.
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crimsontide06
03-17-2012, 12:55 AM
It's a mental disease, just like pedophilia. The sexual desire for the same gender is the same exact sexual desire that freaks have who want children...It's the same thing as those who want to be sexual with animals, random objects...it's a disease.


BI-sexual is NOT a disease, that's sexual confusion. SOME people go to the same gender because society has made it seem "cool" to be with the same gender.
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GuestFellow
03-17-2012, 01:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by crimsontide06
It's a mental disease, just like pedophilia. The sexual desire for the same gender is the same exact sexual desire that freaks have who want children...It's the same thing as those who want to be sexual with animals, random objects...it's a disease.


BI-sexual is NOT a disease, that's sexual confusion. SOME people go to the same gender because society has made it seem "cool" to be with the same gender.
Salaam,

Homosexuals are not necessarily attracted to children. If so, where's your evidence?

If it is a disease, what's the cure?
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crimsontide06
03-17-2012, 01:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

Homosexuals are not necessarily attracted to children. If so, where's your evidence?

If it is a disease, what's the cure?

I said it's the same idea....not saying they like children too. I am saying that the desire that homosexuals have is the same type of desire that pedo's have BUT homosexuals desires are accepted in western society.
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جوري
03-17-2012, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
If it is a disease, what's the cure?
With every disease there's indeed a cure..
Ibn Sina described love once as a mental illness, I am inclined to the same conclusion but we're not talking feelings here, rather the act.. .. The cure in this case is simply abstinence .. you can do that as a Hetero or a homo.. for the initial sin in this case is adultery and beyond adultery deviance.. We don't jump people simply because of an intense attraction to them... I certainly think prayers and fast are ropes from Allah in times of difficulty and in all times so a person should utilize them..
I speak from experience not of homosexuality but after an incident on the highway I became a slave to panic attacks and completely agoraphobic and no one helped me out of it not even my intellectualizing it.. it was Allah swt that took me out of it.. one really needs to examine their faith and reliance on Allah swt and do their part as in have the will to..

:w:
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ardianto
03-17-2012, 01:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Bro, being homosexual is a choice. No one is born homosexual nor does a human being by their natural disposition desires the same gender – ever. Allah created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. This is proven by the ayah that I quoted of Lut in my last post where the Prophet of God clearly says that it was a practise never done before; in other words the people chose this way.

Now as for one who had bad experiences, you've pretty much answered this question yourself i.e. the bad experiences is what caused them to be who they are from how Allah naturally created them, but to chose from one's heart to be a homosexual was still a choice and to continue to be this way was still a decision they made. The heart is free to choose what it wants and no one can compel it in any way or form to love or desire something. So with this understanding it can be confidently said that there is no difference between the one who is homosexual and the one who acts upon their desires (except that the latter is worse!); just as there is no difference between a man and woman dating and those who commit zina in their relationship because it is too close to the act of zina itself. Both are doing wrong but the one's who are satisfying their desires are in a worse state than just dating. No Muslim in his right mind will make dating or anything of the sort as anything less than strictly forbidden because one chooses celibacy! What would then be the case of a repugnant and abhorrent act of homosexuality?

And finally, Ibn Taymiyah's quote clearly mentions those who are passive and active are to be punished.
I talked about children who got bad experiences from people around them, before they have sexual desire. Later when they reach puberty age they realize they have no interest to opposite gender and have interest only to same gender. People like this cannot be forced to have interest to opposite gender, but they can choose to follow their wrong desire, or they to control it to prevent them fall into sin.

But I understand why you said being homosexual is a choice. There are people who already have normal sexual desire, but they got experience that made them chose to eliminate their normal sexual desire and chose to be homosexual. However, you cannot generalize all homosexual can choose to be homosexual.

And from what I have read, Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah Rahimahullah talked about practicing homosexual, not about being homosexual which they did not want to be a person like this.
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CosmicPathos
03-17-2012, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Even though he has never practiced homosexuality, many Muslims still judge him and treat him as though he is mentally disturbed
he indeed is mentally disturbed for having such desires. maybe a development disorder, but something indeed is wrong.

And i'd hate my brother too if he had such desires. I dont blame your relative's brothers. No one wants a weird sibling.
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CosmicPathos
03-17-2012, 03:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
I talked about children who got bad experiences from people around them, before they have sexual desire. Later when they reach puberty age they realize they have no interest to opposite gender and have interest only to same gender. People like this cannot be forced to have interest to opposite gender, but they can choose to follow their wrong desire, or they to control it to prevent them fall into sin.
yea so it means it is a development disorder, not something they were born with. society made them that way, not God.
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CosmicPathos
03-17-2012, 03:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Homosexuals are not necessarily attracted to children. If so, where's your evidence?
what if someone is attracted to children? is that normal as long as they dont act on it?
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Rhubarb Tart
03-17-2012, 02:08 PM
Abd-al lafit
Where do you get your Islamic knowledge from? You’ve also posted to a married woman in advice section that married people who watch porn are to be stoned. YET anyone with BASIC Islamic knowledge it is the act of penetration, witnessed by four people or confessed by the individual that ensure they get death by stoning. She would have been punished in Islamic state if she was caught BUT by death? no..

So I don’t know what to make of your statement that a homosexual will be sentenced to death because of his attraction towards same sex NOT because he confessed or was witnessed having sex with same sex or promoted homosexuality.

You are equating dating with attraction?
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Rhubarb Tart
03-17-2012, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
what if someone is attracted to children? is that normal as long as they dont act on it?
no it is normal, but they haven't committed a crime if they didn't act upon it.
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Abu.Yusuf
03-17-2012, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

We don't really know who is sinning do we? It is indeed for Allah swt to judge.. I have posted here the story of a Muslim man who struggled with homosexual feelings, used to have SSE and feel like crap and his struggles and prayers to get over them.. he eventually got married (to a woman) had children and started a website to help other people who love Allah more than deviant sex do the same..

:w:

This does not really make sense..

Sin happens on three fronts:
-Heart
-Tongue
-Action

As for the sin in the heart, yes we do not know who is really sinning and the only judge is Allaah for that. Allaah [swt] did not give us permission to judge peoples hearts.
However, for the sins on the tongue and action Allaah [swt] has given us permission to judge. We have to judge people, otherwise how would i advise someone to stop doing Haraam if i am not allowed to think that he is sinning in the first place? How can someone reject a marriage proposal from an [for example] alcoholic for their daughter if he is not allowed to judge him. How can some choose 'good' company if he is not allowed to judge someone to be bad....and so on.

And coming back to the point, 'hate the sin, not the sinner' where is this founding in the Quraan or Sunnah?..remember it is a big sin to attribute something to the Deen without evidence.

side point: if we accept that, can we say 'love the good deed, not the good dooer' - if not, why?
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Ramadan90
03-17-2012, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu.Yusuf
This does not really make sense..

Sin happens on three fronts:
-Heart
-Tongue
-Action

As for the sin in the heart, yes we do not know who is really sinning and the only judge is Allaah for that. Allaah [swt] did not give us permission to judge peoples hearts.
However, for the sins on the tongue and action Allaah [swt] has given us permission to judge. We have to judge people, otherwise how would i advise someone to stop doing Haraam if i am not allowed to think that he is sinning in the first place? How can someone reject a marriage proposal from an [for example] alcoholic for their daughter if he is not allowed to judge him. How can some choose 'good' company if he is not allowed to judge someone to be bad....and so on.

And coming back to the point, 'hate the sin, not the sinner' where is this founding in the Quraan or Sunnah?..remember it is a big sin to attribute something to the Deen without evidence.

side point: if we accept that, can we say 'love the good deed, not the good dooer' - if not, why?
What if the person can not control what he feels but he had decided to stay away from that sin for Allah? How can that be a sin?

On topic: Very interesting discussion.
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جوري
03-17-2012, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu.Yusuf
This does not really make sense..

Sin happens on three fronts:
-Heart
-Tongue
-Action

As for the sin in the heart, yes we do not know who is really sinning and the only judge is Allaah for that. Allaah [swt] did not give us permission to judge peoples hearts.
However, for the sins on the tongue and action Allaah [swt] has given us permission to judge. We have to judge people, otherwise how would i advise someone to stop doing Haraam if i am not allowed to think that he is sinning in the first place? How can someone reject a marriage proposal from an [for example] alcoholic for their daughter if he is not allowed to judge him. How can some choose 'good' company if he is not allowed to judge someone to be bad....and so on.

And coming back to the point, 'hate the sin, not the sinner' where is this founding in the Quraan or Sunnah?..remember it is a big sin to attribute something to the Deen without evidence.

side point: if we accept that, can we say 'love the good deed, not the good dooer' - if not, why?
When you pass a judgement with such absolution you take away someone's hope and possibility of ever repenting.
There are people who do the deeds of the people of paradise and everyone thinks them in paradise but end up in hell and vice versa..
Surely you remember the three stories, one man who went to paradise after just one salat, one who converted and went to battle and went to paradise without any salaat.. and the one who was so heroic and everyone all the sahabis thought he was going to paradise but during battle put his sword in such a way so that he'd fall on it and commit suicide...
I believe we have permission to pass naseeha to someone as ad'deen naseeha, but we don't know who is repenting for their actions and who isn't but we're not the judge and executioner of anyone. Loads of examples of people who are outwardly pious and are anything but and vice versa..
The term you use is nonsensical of sorts..

now for your question at the end, imagine if Allah swt takes your bad deed and multiplies it by 10 or 70 as is the case of a good deed? Allah swt is merciful, he never closes the gates of mercy.. a man from banu Israel killed a 99 soul and the sage told him Allah will never accept your repentance, he killed him too and then went to make repentance died in the road to repentance but had a sincere heart and his repentance was accepted from him..
You're welcome to go through life judging other people.. That's not a trait I wish to adorn myself with and I do find homosexuality an abomination if you'll refer to all my posts on the matter..

:w:

sry for the typos I am in a hurry..
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جوري
03-17-2012, 06:39 PM
btw just as a quick addendum to above since I forgot in the discourse.. I'd like you to evince from Quran and Sunnah our ability to 'Judge' don't bring me ahadith about enjoining what is good and forbidding evil because that falls under the category of ''ad'deen naseha'' but in the very word you underlined. The ability to judge as in you're going to hell, you're going to heaven, you're evil, you're good, you're pious, you're loosely moraled' and I am willing to recant my position-I am not above learning.

:w:
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CosmicPathos
03-17-2012, 06:56 PM
salam sister, when we hate a homosexual, we dont judge saying you are hell-bound. We can just hate him for his crime. If his crime was public, he has make a public repentance for it to be accepted.

you mentoned a story of a gay Muslim brother who is now married. What a good ending. But you have to note that this brother had good conscience, he saw his thoughts/desires as deviance till the end and worked against them. On the contrary we are talking about Muslims who are "okay" with such desires.

Moreover, I am sure at one point or another, we had have thoughts of commiting suicide or killing someone, yet we were able to control them. These homosexuals have something wrong wtih their circuitry and hence they cant control their thoughts for bedding another male.
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جوري
03-17-2012, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
you mentoned a story of a gay Muslim brother who is now married. What a good ending. But you have to note that this brother had good conscience, he saw his thoughts/desires as deviance till the end and worked against them. On the contrary we are talking about Muslims who are "okay" with such desires.
I am generally of the belief that we're born on fitrah and are good but only get uglier with each passing bad deed until it kills any sort of decency and goodness in us. Do you notice (not you) but generally, how when you commit a bad deed the first time you feel horrible, your conscience nags you repeatedly and then every time you commit the same sin it becomes less and less bad until it becomes normal? That's how it is with committing sins when shytaan completely takes control over us (please if you have the time visit the thread about when sheep are shepherded by wolves' because it speaks with our battle with shytaan since the beginning of time and the many ways he approaches us. One of the ways we overcome him is this constant repentance.. But when people feel like they've lost that.. it is a very bad thing.. This brother has set a whole network to help people overcome this and I visited it and saw the kaffirs working their crap there making all sorts of ugly things good and it pained you know why? not because I expect better from them? I expect them full well to use florid speech to beautify all kinds of sins with 'what's wrong with it? it is normal' what made me sad is the lack of support from Muslims as I see it here to help others overcome a grievous sin.. It is a sin like any other.. If you were to fall into adultery and I knew you hated it and felt the desperate need to walk aright should I hate and judge you anyway?
Yes there are gradations of sins but both are from kaba'er and one should offer help to a person who reaches out for help.
I advise you of this as a general rule as in your career probably if you end up in general practice you'll notice 70% of your patients suffer the consequence of something they've brought upon themselves and that includes obese, smoking Muslims as well..

:w:
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karimium
03-17-2012, 07:27 PM
There are therapies you can take to change your sexuality, some are psychological, others are physical, such as taking medication that alter the bodies checmical balance which alters your sexual preference.

For what I heard there's not actually anything that says gays per se was a crime, but rather homosexual acts which were forbidden.

Also it should be noted, that in countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. There is a fine line between child exploitation, fornication and homosexuality. A lot of these undergound homosexual parties have otyher sins as well liek sex before marriage and alcohol consumption. So that requres some deeper thought. Is homosexiality wrong because it comes with a lot of baggage which decays the moral fabric of society, or is homosexuality not allowed in itself.
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GuestFellow
03-17-2012, 08:20 PM
Salaam,

format_quote Originally Posted by karimium
There are therapies you can take to change your sexuality, some are psychological, others are physical, such as taking medication
that alter the bodies checmical balance which alters your sexual preference.
Evidence?



format_quote Originally Posted by crimsontide06
I said it's the same idea....not saying they like children too. I am saying that the desire that homosexuals have is the same type of desire that pedo's have BUT homosexuals desires are accepted in western society.
There is still a difference. Homosexual adults can give consent. A child cannot give consent.



format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
With every disease there's indeed a cure..
Ibn Sina described love once as a mental illness, I am inclined to the same conclusion but we're not talking feelings here, rather the act.. .. The cure in this case is simply abstinence .. you can do that as a Hetero or a homo.. for the initial sin in this case is adultery and beyond adultery deviance.. We don't jump people simply because of an intense attraction to them... I certainly think prayers and fast are ropes from Allah in times of difficulty and in all times so a person should utilize them..
I speak from experience not of homosexuality but after an incident on the highway I became a slave to panic attacks and completely agoraphobic and no one helped me out of it not even my intellectualizing it.. it was Allah swt that took me out of it.. one really needs to examine their faith and reliance on Allah swt and do their part as in have the will to..

:w:
What is the scientific definition of the term disease? How does homosexuality fit into this definition? Hope I'm not coming across as aggressive with my questions.

format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
he indeed is mentally disturbed for having such desires. maybe a development disorder, but something indeed is wrong.

And i'd hate my brother too if he had such desires. I dont blame your relative's brothers. No one wants a weird sibling.
There are many mental illnesses like depression, social anxiety and post-natal depression. No reasonable individual hates these people who suffer. Why hate homosexuality if it is an illness? Last time I checked, in Islam, a person cannot be guilty of a criminal act if they are suffering from a mental disorder. They would be helped instead of killing them.

How would you define weird? His brothers are not practicing, have no job, no qualifications and disrespect their mom. One of them is in prison. I should not be surprised they hate him.

format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
what if someone is attracted to children? is that normal as long as they dont act on it?
Feelings that result in harmful results should be controlled. If they cannot controlled, they should seek help. It depends on how you define normal. I personally don't see it as normal.

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Abd-al lafit
Where do you get your Islamic knowledge from? You’ve also posted to a married woman in advice section that married people who watch porn are to be stoned. YET anyone with BASIC Islamic knowledge it is the act of penetration, witnessed by four people or confessed by the individual that ensure they get death by stoning. She would have been punished in Islamic state if she was caught BUT by death? no..

So I don’t know what to make of your statement that a homosexual will be sentenced to death because of his attraction towards same sex NOT because he confessed or was witnessed having sex with same sex or promoted homosexuality.

You are equating dating with attraction?
It sounds like Pakistani culture to me. It is like communicating with a brick wall at times.

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
no it is normal, but they haven't committed a crime if they didn't act upon it.
Simple as that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Allah<3
What if the person can not control what he feels but he had decided to stay away from that sin for Allah? How can that be a sin?

On topic: Very interesting discussion.
Very interesting.

I hope no one takes my post offensive. If so, let me know and I will try to be more diplomatic.
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جوري
03-17-2012, 08:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
What is the scientific definition of the term disease? How does homosexuality fit into this definition? Hope I'm not coming across as aggressive with my questions.
We classify things differently in psychiatry than we do others but it is usually if it falls outside of two standard deviation of the norm which is usually broad. so as an example in order for you to be defined at hypothyroid the value has to fall completely outside the reference range let's say the reference range is from .05-5 and you are a 6 then you'd qualify for that diagnosis and it is usually accompanied by clinical symptoms..
Homosexuality was defined as an act of sexual deviance up to the 1970's in the 'civilized west' so if you'll refer to the DSM-II you'd find it as such..


:w:
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noorseeker
03-17-2012, 08:37 PM
Isnt there a Hadith id i recall. If a homosexual person goes through life refraining from acts of homosexuality , and stays chaste

Allah swt will grant them Jannah

Ok say you are born gay, and Allah swt has given you this test


Would you want the test of Poverty all your life or the test of refraining from sexual acts
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GuestFellow
03-17-2012, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll

We classify things differently in psychiatry than we do others but it is usually if it falls outside of two standard deviation of the norm which is usually broad. so as an example in order for you to be defined at hypothyroid the value has to fall completely outside the reference range let's say the reference range is from .05-5 and you are a 6 then you'd qualify for that diagnosis and it is usually accompanied by clinical symptoms..
Homosexuality was defined as an act of sexual deviance up to the 1970's in the 'civilized west' so if you'll refer to the DSM-II you'd find it as such..


:w:
:wa:

Thank you!

DSM-II? I'll have a look.
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CosmicPathos
03-17-2012, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
How would you define weird? His brothers are not practicing, have no job, no qualifications and disrespect their mom. One of them is in prison. I should not be surprised they hate him.
still better than being homosexual. At least they are not going against fitrah except disrespecting mom part.

having no job is not a sin. having no qualifications is not a sin. they are free to do whatever they wish to do with lives, as long as they are not doing haram. last time i checked, quran doesnt call being jobless a sin. quran doesnt call being a hermit a sin. however ti does call being a gay as something disgusting.
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CosmicPathos
03-17-2012, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
It sounds like Pakistani culture to me. It is like communicating with a brick wall at times.
lol, idiocy. there are many Pakistanis who eat and drink with homosexuals and advocate for LGBT rights. Are they defying their Pakistani culture? lol, you are smarter than that.
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GuestFellow
03-17-2012, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
lol, idiocy. there are many Pakistanis who eat and drink with homosexuals and advocate for LGBT rights. Are they defying their Pakistani culture? lol, you are smarter than that.
Salaam,

I'm such a troll. LOL

Anyway, don't take it too personally. I rarely seen Pakistani people promote gay rights. I guess I'm surrounded by Pakistanis who are more traditional. There is an element of truth in what I said. Most Pakistani people, that I have met, choose their own culture over Islam. When explaining they have done something wrong, they ignore it. So it is like talking to a bring wall. Even if you get evidence from websites like IslamQA, they still choose culture.

I'm speaking from experience. O_o
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GuestFellow
03-17-2012, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
still better than being homosexual. At least they are not going against fitrah except disrespecting mom part.

having no job is not a sin. having no qualifications is not a sin. they are free to do whatever they wish to do with lives, as long as they are not doing haram. last time i checked, quran doesnt call being jobless a sin. quran doesnt call being a hermit a sin. however ti does call being a gay as something disgusting.
Salaam,

I never said having no job or qualifications is a sin. I'm saying they are lazy. They have potential but didn't care. When their dad worked day and night as a taxi driver, they spent his hard earned money on clubbing, smoking, drugs and get into fights. They don't respect their mom at all. They swear at her and never listened to her. The one in prison committed an sexual assault, but he still maintains his innocence.

Their youngest brother (the homosexual) has a job, has qualifications, practices Islam (praying, fasting, etc) and is very polite. Completely different to his brothers. If you still hate the youngest brother when he has done nothing wrong, your influenced by culture.

Again, I hope you don't find this post offensive.
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جوري
03-17-2012, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
:wa:

Thank you!

DSM-II? I'll have a look.
sure it is on the net. and I posted it about it earlier including the lobby to get it to be accepted as a normal variance...
I hope things work out for your relative insha'Allah where he can fight this and triumph for the sake of Allah..

:w:
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CosmicPathos
03-17-2012, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Their youngest brother (the homosexual) has a job, has qualifications, practices Islam (praying, fasting, etc) and is very polite. Completely different to his brothers. If you still hate the youngest brother when he has done nothing wrong, your influenced by culture.
yea i am as influenced by culture as all humans are, whether they accept it or not.

there are atheists who deny God yet are philanthropic and do good deeds. But all of that is in vain.
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GuestFellow
03-17-2012, 10:56 PM
^ Islam should be our main influence.
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nfnmcmd
03-17-2012, 10:57 PM
Was trying to find you. I cant send private messages yet. No offense taken. I appreciate your opinions
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CosmicPathos
03-17-2012, 11:01 PM
sister nfnmcmd, I've sent you a pm. do check it.
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nfnmcmd
03-17-2012, 11:06 PM
I read it. I just cant respond in private messages. I appreciate what you said and understand. I look around and amazed at how people dress and act in public. It is embarrassing to be American. I hate that we are all judged by what is the majority. I was part of that for most of my life. I am happy to see the truth now.
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Banu_Hashim
03-18-2012, 12:32 AM
May Allah guide all of us to that which is blessed and beneficial, Ameen.
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'Abd-al Latif
03-19-2012, 10:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Abd-al lafit
Where do you get your Islamic knowledge from? You’ve also posted to a married woman in advice section that married people who watch porn are to be stoned. YET anyone with BASIC Islamic knowledge it is the act of penetration, witnessed by four people or confessed by the individual that ensure they get death by stoning. She would have been punished in Islamic state if she was caught BUT by death? no..

So I don’t know what to make of your statement that a homosexual will be sentenced to death because of his attraction towards same sex NOT because he confessed or was witnessed having sex with same sex or promoted homosexuality.

You are equating dating with attraction?
Where did you learn your manners from?

And what in the world are you talking about? I never said married people who watch porn are to be stoned! If you bothered to read carefully what I said then you would have read that I said whoever has sexual relations with a person whom they aren't married to, while that person is married, is to be stoned. In other words the adultrer. I'm not going to bother to explain myself all over again to you, go back to that thread and read it properly and then we'll talk.

And unless you can prove your point of homosexuals from the Qur'an and Sunnah you're opinion holds no weight. I will only advance my argument further or agree and/or disagree once you bring evidences from the Qur'an and Sunnah because then you will have no way of twisting or changing what I say.
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~Zaria~
03-19-2012, 12:01 PM
Assalamu-alaikum,


I think there are 2 categories of people with regards to homosexuality/ gender identity issues.

First is the type that brother 'Abd-al-Latif mentions of:

The person who is born with normal sexual tendencies, but due to social conditioning - makes a choice/ conscious decision to pursue relationships of the same gender.
These are the people of Lot - who intentionally committed these abominations, and who are warned of a severe punishment.

The next group are those people, who by no fault of their own areborn with medical conditions that fall under Disorders of Sexual Differentiation - examples of these being Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (excessive androgen production due to an enzyme deficiency), Klinefelters Syndrome (males who carry an extra X chromosome - 46 XXY), mixed gonadal abnormalities, Hermaphrodites (presence of ovarian and testicular tissue in the same individual) - to name just a few......

In these conditions, patients often have 'ambigious' genitals - i.e. its difficult to determine physically whether it is a boy/ girl - associated with confusion of sexual inclination.
Often these patients need surgical reconstruction, and a psychological assessment to decide which gender the individual is inclined towards.

And for a muslim afflicted by one of these conditions - can you imagine the trial that he/she faces to actively try and ward him/ herself from deviant sexual inclination.
What immense reward he will earn for doing so, purely for the pleasure of Allah (subhanawataála).



Having said this, it should be noted that these conditions are rare, with the majority of homosexual cases falling into the first group.

The reason I am mentioning this, is to stress that it is NOT up to us to judge anyone.
Allah (subhanawataála) alone knows what trials He has placed in an individuals life, and He is the best of Judgers.

So, the next time you see a homosexual person - stop yourself, and give him the benefit of the doubt - in all likelihood, he has fallen into the traps of Shaytaan.......but perhaps there is more than meets the eye......


:wa:
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Abu.Yusuf
03-19-2012, 01:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Allah&lt;3
What if the person can not control what he feels but he had decided to stay away from that sin for Allah? How can that be a sin?
It is not a sin if someone has that feeling. It is a sin if he desires it, is content with it etc. If he is fighting his desires and trying to refrain from it, then that is a good deed - it is a form of Jihaad [Jihaad un-Nafs]. he would be rewarded for it if Allaah wills.
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Hamza Asadullah
03-19-2012, 02:12 PM
As Muslims we hate anything that Allah hath forbidden upon us. Therefore we hate the sin and not the sinner. We hate it because Allah hates it. For Allah created it in the first place for a test upon mankind and he also advised us for it or against it. In this case he advised us against homosexuality and has set prescribed punishments upon those who indulge in it. Homosexuality may be a test for many and those who resist the urges and desire will be rewarded accordingly and those who are caught committing the act "under a shariah system" will be punished accordingly but as always even if there was a shariah system in place it is quite difficult to implement such a punishment because of certain criterea being met like the need for witnesses etc.

Therefore the people who do commit such an act under the shariah would be likely not to recieve such a punishment in the majority of cases but if they do then it is for the betterment of society as a clear deterrant for society as a whole to keep away from such vile acts. As we can see in todays modern societies homosexuality is being promoted and it is even being debated in the Church whether there should be gay Bishops and gay marriage or not. Therefore Christians have gone against their own scriptures like they have done in many of their fundamental concepts and that is why it is a religion that has clearly gone astray very early on after the ascension of Isa (As) until this very day where the fundamental concepts are continuously being changed, ammended, added to and deleted.

Islam is dynamic and will always be relevant at all times from now until the last day on Earth. It does NOT comprimise on the fundamentals and that which is clearly forbidden or clearly permissable and anything in between is carefully treated according to the Qur'an, sunnah and the understanding of over a 1000 years of scholarly works. That is why Islam is so unique and there is and there wil always be nothing like it.
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CosmicPathos
03-19-2012, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Assalamu-alaikum,


I think there are 2 categories of people with regards to homosexuality/ gender identity issues.

First is the type that brother 'Abd-al-Latif mentions of:

The person who is born with normal sexual tendencies, but due to social conditioning - makes a choice/ conscious decision to pursue relationships of the same gender.
These are the people of Lot - who intentionally committed these abominations, and who are warned of a severe punishment.

The next group are those people, who by no fault of their own areborn with medical conditions that fall under Disorders of Sexual Differentiation - examples of these being Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (excessive androgen production due to an enzyme deficiency), Klinefelters Syndrome (males who carry an extra X chromosome - 46 XXY), mixed gonadal abnormalities, Hermaphrodites (presence of ovarian and testicular tissue in the same individual) - to name just a few......

In these conditions, patients often have 'ambigious' genitals - i.e. its difficult to determine physically whether it is a boy/ girl - associated with confusion of sexual inclination.
Often these patients need surgical reconstruction, and a psychological assessment to decide which gender the individual is inclined towards.

And for a muslim afflicted by one of these conditions - can you imagine the trial that he/she faces to actively try and ward him/ herself from deviant sexual inclination.
What immense reward he will earn for doing so, purely for the pleasure of Allah (subhanawataála).



Having said this, it should be noted that these conditions are rare, with the majority of homosexual cases falling into the first group.

The reason I am mentioning this, is to stress that it is NOT up to us to judge anyone.
Allah (subhanawataála) alone knows what trials He has placed in an individuals life, and He is the best of Judgers.

So, the next time you see a homosexual person - stop yourself, and give him the benefit of the doubt - in all likelihood, he has fallen into the traps of Shaytaan.......but perhaps there is more than meets the eye......


:wa:
w salam

people with klinefelters dont feel attraction towards same sex, they feel that they are males, yet are infertile. there is nothing about xxy pathophysio that'd make them feel attracted to same gender i.e. males. Moreover, these ppl have tons of othre issues, muscle weaknesses, osteoporosis etc, I doubt they'd be going all out in gay prides

as for congenital adrenal hyperplasia, i am not sure if it affects the "desires" of that patient. 21 hydroxylase deficient females will have virilization and hirsutism, but how would it effect their "desire" towards males? Some females might have ovarian failure and no puberty such as those with 17 hydroxylase deficiency but I am not sure if these ppl aer gay in the true sense of the word.
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Abu.Yusuf
03-19-2012, 02:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
The ability to judge as in you're going to hell, you're going to heaven, you're evil, you're good, you're pious, you're loosely moraled' and I am willing to recant my position-I am not above learning.
And you also mentioned: "When you pass a judgement with such absolution you take away someone's hope and possibility of ever repenting."


In terms of agreeing with each other, I think the main problem we are having is understanding the term 'judging'. What exactly do we mean by that word? I think we need to be synchronised before we can speak about it/agree...

If by judging we mean to judge someone to be a person of hell fire or paradise - this is completely not allowed. No person can ever testify to that. Even if we know someone who died Shaheed, we say 'he is in Jannah Inshaa`Allaah' not 'he is defo in Jannah'.
However, if a baby/child was to die, then we can say he is in Jannah.

Regards to Hell fire, when we know someone who died as a Kaafir [e.g. atheist, Jew, Christian etc] and we are sure he died as a Kaafir, then we can testify that they are in hell fire. Hence, we do not pray Janaazah for them.
With regards to who is right or wrong, bad or good etc, we can say someone is good or bad - but obviously if they change then we dont call them good anymore [or bad].
The general ruling on how to think someone is good or bad is to judge them by their speech and actions. 'Umar [ra] said that after the death of the Nabi [saw], we cannot know what people have in their hearts so we can only judge what is apparent [paraphrased].

And the examples I gave about this type of judging was not only to do with commanding good and forbidding evil...[which is sufficient on its own anyway], I also mentioned about marriage and companionship.
Another one to mention, and which made it possible for our Deen to be original and not changed, is the judgements of the Muhadditheen. The Scholars who collected Hadeeth were always judging who is reliable and who is not, who is trustworthy and who is not. They even wrote specific books exposing people and judging them to be liars, untrustworthy etc. If this was not done, this Deen would not have been as it is now.

Also, Allaah says 'if a Faasiq [sinner] comes to you with news, verify it' - so it is important to distinguish who a Faasiq is and who is not in order to obey Allahs command in this Verse.

Theres a more as well, I think it may need a separate thread. If it doesnt exist already i might do it later inshaaAllaah.


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Abu.Yusuf
03-19-2012, 02:40 PM
Just to add.... in this topic, we are not talking about treating someone badly, looking down upon them, thinking you are better than them etc.

Even if someone was a Kaafir, we dont go round beating him up, abusing him etc. If a Muslim was s sinner, we still give him his rights [of Salam, visiting him when hes sick etc] and we stil are OBLIGED to have love for him as a brother. We do not look down upon him and become arrogant....

All that i am saying in the discussion is that having judgments about others/having an opinion about others [however its best to say it] is part of the Deen....
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~Zaria~
03-19-2012, 03:05 PM
@ brother CosmicPathos,

The point that I was trying to make, is that medical conditions do exist, that may result in gender identity issues.
Not all those afflicted with these conditions expierence this the same though.

With regards to a woman with CAH - very high androgen levels do indeed result in masculinization of females - and they certainly experience identity conflicts (considering the effects of androgens on the brain as well).
A man with Klinefelters, who is carrying an extra X (female) chromosome - does he not have an organic basis, in the event that he is not inclined towards females? (even though, this is not common).


As I have mentioned, even though these types of conditions do exist, they are extremely rare.......and the far majority of cases, are unfortunately deviant and perverted behaviour, which we have been warned of.

:wa:
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جوري
03-19-2012, 03:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu.Yusuf
Theres a more as well, I think it may need a separate thread. If it doesnt exist already i might do it later inshaaAllaah.
Insha'Allah.. however I'd classify them as
1- Enjoining what is good and forbidding evil
2- The science of hadith
3- A judiciary matter
4- A case of having multiple witnesses (which again would go under number 3)
I truly fear of passing a judgment by the very definition of the word that one would end up falling into a whole other brand of sin..

:w:
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جوري
03-19-2012, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
@ brother CosmicPathos,

The point that I was trying to make, is that medical conditions do exist, that may result in gender identity issues.
Not all those afflicted with these conditions expierence this the same though.

With regards to a woman with CAH - very high androgen levels do indeed result in masculinization of females - and they certainly experience identity conflicts (considering the effects of androgens on the brain as well).
A man with Klinefelters, who is carrying an extra X (female) chromosome - does he not have an organic basis, in the event that he is not inclined towards females? (even though, this is not common).


As I have mentioned, even though these types of conditions do exist, they are extremely rare.......and the far majority of cases, are unfortunately deviant and perverted behaviour, which we have been warned of.

:wa:
I don't agree with you often sister but this is definitely a matter where we're 100% on the same page .. there are a host of such anomalies-- 5-alpha reductase deficiency, Androgen insensitivity syndrome, males may even be born with uteruses under the influence of Müllerian inhibiting hormone.. So there's a whole gamut of things that influence our psychology .. but as with any other disease or condition one can give into the 'why me' or they can try their best to fight it with whatever that entails of patience and good deeds insha'Allah..

:w:
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Abu.Yusuf
03-19-2012, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ßlµêßêll
Insha'Allah.. however I'd classify them as
1- Enjoining what is good and forbidding evil
2- The science of hadith
3- A judiciary matter
4- A case of having multiple witnesses (which again would go under number 3)
I truly fear of passing a judgment by the very definition of the word that one would end up falling into a whole other brand of sin..
We can classify them the way we feel would be best to understand easier inshaaAllaah.

Before I open the thread, can you explain how exactly we should define 'judging; judgement'. And what would you call it when ppl 'judge' a person in relation to the examples I gave [e.g. marriage, companionship etc]. JZK
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جوري
03-19-2012, 06:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu.Yusuf
can you explain how exactly we should define 'judging; judgement'.
:sl:

The definition as I understand and per dictionary is: Form a critical opinion of/ to brand someone with/Accuse or condemn openly or formally; classify or describe as-- with whatever that entails of ensuing actions/words/deeds...

but you know I do understand where you're coming from in cases where a person is so overtly evil and people need to be warned of their evil..

:w:
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GuestFellow
03-19-2012, 07:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
As Muslims we hate anything that Allah hath forbidden upon us. Therefore we hate the sin and not the sinner. We hate it because Allah hates it. For Allah created it in the first place for a test upon mankind and he also advised us for it or against it. In this case he advised us against homosexuality and has set prescribed punishments upon those who indulge in it. Homosexuality may be a test for many and those who resist the urges and desire will be rewarded accordingly and those who are caught committing the act "under a shariah system" will be punished accordingly but as always even if there was a shariah system in place it is quite difficult to implement such a punishment because of certain criterea being met like the need for witnesses etc.
Salaam,

I hope I do not come across as rude but I think the witness requirement should not be required in some cases. Sometimes, people record themselves performing homosexual acts and post it on websites. In this case, can the witness requirement be waived? It is open to public to see and many people will have viewed it.
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CosmicPathos
03-19-2012, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
@ brother CosmicPathos,

The point that I was trying to make, is that medical conditions do exist, that may result in gender identity issues.
Not all those afflicted with these conditions expierence this the same though.

With regards to a woman with CAH - very high androgen levels do indeed result in masculinization of females - and they certainly experience identity conflicts (considering the effects of androgens on the brain as well).
A man with Klinefelters, who is carrying an extra X (female) chromosome - does he not have an organic basis, in the event that he is not inclined towards females? (even though, this is not common).


As I have mentioned, even though these types of conditions do exist, they are extremely rare.......and the far majority of cases, are unfortunately deviant and perverted behaviour, which we have been warned of.

:wa:
ok, we first have to define how Islam looks at maleness and femaleness. On basis of Y chromosome or on basis of genitalia?

so are you saying that masculinized females have attraction towards males? I'll be honest, I have not interacted clinically with many such patients, so I dont know what their sexual preferences are, and I doubt any text discusses where i can read up, but I dont see how hormones can affect how we feel towards our gender identity in such a way that we start feeling like totally opposite (a male with low testosterone wont behave like normal males but I doubt all of sudden he'd become interested in males cuz he now feels like a female :S). Normal females also have testosterone for libido, you are saying if this testo increases a bit too much, these females will start to feel they are males and start having desires towards females??

on the contrary, in-utero, these abnormalities in hormones COULD affect how we feel about our gender identity later on in life regardless of the type of genitalia.
yes, chromosomal abnormalities are rare and I doubt that when we are talking about gays, we are talking about these severely sick people.
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Ramadan90
04-16-2012, 10:48 AM
But what is increasingly suggested by recent research is that homosexual tendencies are not always acquired, and that some individuals are born with them as an identifiable irregularity in the chromosomes. The implications of this for moral theology are clear: given the Quran's insistence that human beings are responsible only for actions they have voluntarily acquired, homosexuality as an innate disposition cannot be a sin.



It does not follow from this, of course, that acting in accordance with such a tendency is justifiable. Similar research has indicated that many human tendencies, including forms of criminal behaviour, are also on occasion traceable to genetic disorders; and yet nobody would conclude that the behaviour was therefore legitimate. Instead, we are learning that just as God has given people differing physical and intellectual gifts, He tests some of us by implanting moral tendencies which we must struggle to overcome as part of our self-reform and discipline. A mental patient with an obsessive desire to set fire to houses has been given a particular hurdle to overcome. A man or woman with strong homosexual urges faces the same challenge.

Written by a very knowledgeable muslim: Abdal hakim murad.

Which brings back to what I wrote before: It is the action itself that is a sin.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad08.htm






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~ Sabr ~
06-30-2015, 04:24 PM
:salamext:

Supporting Gay/Lesbian people is wrong.
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