Original Sin

[Sumaiya54]

Asalaamu Aleikum,

I'm very confused about original sin! Can any Christians explain it to me? I know it has something to do with Eve being punished...thats about it :(

Thanks!
Salaam

[GodIsAll]

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. It never made any sense to me, either.

[GodIsAll]

okay, okay.

From what I remember...I went to Catholic elementary school in eastern Canada when I was a wee tot. French nuns ran the place. I still have the rosary bead scars across my back to prove it.

Apparently, Catholics believe that we inherit the sin commited by Adam and Eve when they ate the forbidden fruit.
This is the purpose of Baptism in Catholicism: The cleanse the sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Don't spam the messenger...

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Sumaiya54;

The Bible does not say much about the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve lived; but it seems to imply they had a fairly easy life. The garden had all the food they needed including the tree of life and if they kept eating from this tree they would live forever. It seems that Adam and Eve had a lot of freedom, because the only command God gave them was not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When they disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge, they disobeyed God for the first time, hence the original sin. It seems from this one act of disobedience, God knew how mankind would develop. We all suffer in this world today because of the original sin; because we continue to disobey God, we make our world full of injustice and evil.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

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[ardianto]

Greeting and peace, GodIsAll and Eric H.

Just want to know about Baptism to cleanse the inherited sin. If someone (baby) dies before Baptism, could Baptism done for him?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you ardianto;

Greeting and peace, GodIsAll and Eric H.

Just want to know about Baptism to cleanse the inherited sin. If someone (baby) dies before Baptism, could Baptism done for him?

We just trust that God will be fair and just to a baby that dies before Baptism.

It sounds as if Baptism is similar to saying the Shahada, I have heard that the sins of new Muslims are forgiven at this time. Would this be the same for a Muslim baby, if he died before being able to recite the Shahada?

Baptism is a means of forgiveness of past sins when an adult become a Christian, it is also a way of dedicating a baby to God. When the baby grows up and they are able to understand for themselves, they go through confirmation, which means they confirm for themselves the vows that the parents made on their behalf when they were baptized as an infant.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[GodIsAll]

Baptism is normally performed in a church by a priest or pastor. Holy water is used. The Catholic and Lutheran faith baptizes infants. Others may as well. Some denominations wait until the person is older and can make a conscious decision to be baptized.

According to the Catholic church, anyone can perform a Baptism without holy water in an emergency situation.

[Predator]

Greetings and peace be with you ardianto;


Would this be the same for a Muslim baby, if he died before being able to recite the Shahada?

Dead Babies are not yet in the age to be accountable for their actions . They're destined for Paradise .

And Allah (swt) knows best

[Pygoscelis]

Asalaamu Aleikum,

I'm very confused about original sin! Can any Christians explain it to me? I know it has something to do with Eve being punished...thats about it :(

Thanks!
Salaam

Original Sin you say? I think it has all been done. I don't think it is possible to be original in your sin anymore. :p

[MustafaMc]

My understanding of Original Sin is that the sin of disobedience of Adam and Eve (eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) is passed down to each and every human except for Mary, per the Immaculate Conception, and for Jesus as God Incarnate. In the Protestant faith the only way to be cleansed of one's 'Sinful Nature' is to accept Jesus as your personal saviour and to be baptized for the remission of sin. The sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross is the only acceptable means to be redeemed from sin, hence the songs such as 'Are You Washed in the Blood?' There is no concept of Original Sin in Islam and a child is not held accountable even for his own misdeeds until after he reaches puberty. Each person is accountable for his own sin, not that of his fathers.

[CosmicPathos]

okay, okay.

From what I remember...I went to Catholic elementary school in eastern Canada when I was a wee tot. French nuns ran the place. I still have the rosary bead scars across my back to prove it.

Apparently, Catholics believe that we inherit the sin commited by Adam and Eve when they ate the forbidden fruit.
This is the purpose of Baptism in Catholicism: The cleanse the sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

Don't spam the messenger...

How far East? French Canada or the Maritimes?

You mentioned French nuns, I reckon from Quebec?

[Abu Jamal]

According to Catholicism. Original sin is the sin we inherit from the sin Adam and Eve, when they sinned in the garden. Everyone who has every existed has inherited it accept Mary and Jesus. There is no way to escape it. All you can do is believe in Christ, and doing catholic practices(Baptism, confirmation, communion, penance, priesthood, anointing the sick, and marriage), although these do not stop you from being a sinner. It just rewards you with a temporary grace, which needs to be topped up by continually doing them.

[GodIsAll]

Yes, Cosmos, I spent much of my childhood in Montreal. Is Quebec your home?

[Pygoscelis]

Original Sin: Collective punishment and inherited guilt for disobedience to power (not immorality).

Christ the Saviour's Sacrifice: Vicarious redemption. Endorsement of human sacrifice. Glorification of violence. Complete abandonment of personal responsibility for your actions. The idea that the death and suffering of an innocent can undo your responsibility for your wrongdoing.

Both are sick in the head, and are reasons I prefer Islam and Judaism to Christianity.

[ardianto]

We just trust that God will be fair and just to a baby that dies before Baptism.

It sounds as if Baptism is similar to saying the Shahada, I have heard that the sins of new Muslims are forgiven at this time. Would this be the same for a Muslim baby, if he died before being able to recite the Shahada?

Baptism is a means of forgiveness of past sins when an adult become a Christian, it is also a way of dedicating a baby to God. When the baby grows up and they are able to understand for themselves, they go through confirmation, which means they confirm for themselves the vows that the parents made on their behalf when they were baptized as an infant.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

God is always fair, of course.

Thank you very much for the answer, Mister Eric. But about Muslim baby who died before being able to recite the Shahada, I think this question has been answered by other participants in this thread.

[ardianto]

From what I remember...I went to Catholic elementary school in eastern Canada when I was a wee tot. French nuns ran the place. I still have the rosary bead scars across my back to prove it.

Punishment that I got from my elementary teachers was stood in front of class. I got this punishment many time in grade 2. Always because a same fault, fought with other boys. :D

However, they did not only punish, but also taught me that violence is not a good way to resolve disputes. Later I stopped fighting and started learn to built good relationship with my schoolmates.

And my teachers taught me not only in school. Sometime in the evening they came to my home. Talked with my parents and gave me extra lessons. They always walked from their dormitory to my home because they didn't have vehicle. They are unmarried women.

Just like you, I studied in Catholic elementary school too, from middle of grade 1 until middle of grade 4 before I moved to Bandung city. But studied in Catholic elementary school did not change me into Catholic. My teachers never taught me anything about their religion. Honestly, in religious tolerance, they are amazing.

[GodIsAll]

Without question, some of these Catholic institutions are exemplary in their academic standards....at least, in my area there are.

Top notch education.

[ardianto]

Without question, some of these Catholic institutions are exemplary in their academic standards....at least, in my area there are.

Top notch education.

I know.

Sometime I and other Muslims in my place discuss about academic standard in Catholic school. But unfortunately, we are not people who able to establish a school.

[GodIsAll]

There are SO many around here and they vary in their prestige and accomplishments. It seems the Jesuit Academies are especially well though of.

[ardianto]

The Catholic elementary school where I studied run by Franciscan.

I didn't know about it until I use internet and visit their website.

[GodIsAll]

Yes, The Franciscans and Dominicans run a few around here as well.

Speaking of: St. Francis of Assisi - wonderful to read about!

Okay...sorry. We have gone from original sin to academic institutions to St. Francis.
Guilty, sorry.

[GodIsAll]

Honestly, in religious tolerance, they are amazing.

I have to agree. Growing up Catholic, I never heard one negative word about other religions or other Christian denominations. When I began attending varying Protestant churches with my wife, Catholicism was negatively viewed.

Without question, the Catholic church has some serious black marks in its history that I won't go into here. It is my opinion that it has really progressed, though.

Nuns and priests...wow. Never marry and have a lifetime of celibacy (in theory). Their lives are wholly for the service of God and the church. I have to admire the sacrifice and dedication that these people have going into it, but I wonder if it is too much for nearly every human. As we all know, this has backfired at times.

[M.I.A.]

i know the story of original sin,

i can only hazard a guess as to what it implies for us.

it was the original deception.

and we are all born into a world of deception..

im not saying that lies rule the world, but maybe simply following the system that has been imposed upon it is not enough to get back to eden.

what does he want us to do again?

[marwen]

:sl:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses, Adam confuted Moses," the Prophet added, repeating the Statement three times.
[Saheeh Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611]

Our father Adam (as) did not make excuses for his sin, he was a human and he can make sins, and Allah forgave him, so no one pays for a forgiven sin. The exit from jannah is not the punishment, it's a consequence of that sin, as has been written by Allah before the creation of Adam (as).

Adam's response is a satisfying reply for people who think about the first sin and who are depressed thinking that we could have been in jannah if Adam didn't do that (like Moses (as) thought) : The response is that we are destined to be on this earth so Allah tests us with the bad and good of this life : it's 'qadar' (fate). Adam's sin was just a means to achieve Allah's qadar. And we are not supposed to blame anyone about something that Allah planned and wanted.

The other lesson that we can learn from the first sin is that, every sin can have inevitable consequences. This shows that, even when Allah forgives our sins, these sins can still have consequences, some sins can totally change our life or the life of people with us.

[Sumaiya54]

Thank you all for replying I understand Original Sin now!

Salaam :)

[GodIsAll]

It is genuinely my pleasure to answer a question on this forum instead of asking.
I am honored to contribute in some small way.

[Abu.Yusuf]

Salaam to my Muslim brothers and Sisters, and hello to the non-Muslims

I looked at all the answers, but no one has quoted verses from the Bible...

Can someone show us where in the bible it states that every human being is born in a sinful state because of the fall of Adam and Eve [pbut], does this fundamental creed have an explicit verse which states this? And if there does exist verses like that, how do you re-concile with the verses which state:

'Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.'

'The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.'

[GodIsAll]

Abu: You summed it all up, methinks. There are several Catholic doctrines that cannot be backed up with biblical verses. Original sin is one, purgatory is another.

[Sunnie Ameena]

Apparently, Catholics believe that we inherit the sin commited by Adam and Eve when they ate the forbidden fruit.
This is the purpose of Baptism in Catholicism: The cleanse the sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

That is how I was raised also. I was also told, that Eve got the fruit, and gave it to Adam, and he took it, and therefore that is why women have extreme pain during child birth, as punishment, because she is the one who convinced him to eat it.

[Amigo]

There clearer explanations on wikipedia about what various religions think about original sin.
Here is a wikipedia quote about what the Catholic Church teaches on original sin:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that in "yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state … original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" — a state and not an act" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 404). This "state of deprivation of the original holiness and justice … transmitted to the descendants of Adam along with human nature" (Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 76) involves no personal responsibility or personal guilt on their part (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 405). Personal responsibility and guilt were Adam's, who because of his sin, was unable to pass on to his descendants a human nature with the holiness with which it would otherwise have been endowed, in this way implicating them in his sin. The doctrine of original sin thus does not impute the sin of the father to his children, but merely states that they inherit from him a "human nature deprived of original holiness and justice", which is "transmitted by propagation to all mankind" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 404).

[جوري]

original sin found on OSXII on the third chromosome passed down generational(y) per catholic church .. transmitted along with other anomalies (thanks mom & dad) ;D;D;D

[MustafaMc]

original sin found on OSXII on the third chromosome passed down generational(y) per catholic church .. transmitted along with other anomalies (thanks mom & dad) ;D;D;D

Is that like most mutations and lethal or result in birth defect when homozygous? Oh, I forgot these anomalies are the building blocks for natural selection to act upon. Since the Original Sin gene has been carried over all of this time, it must confer a selective advantage resulting in survival of the fittest.:p

[GodIsAll]

Wow, genetics humor!
Being a Catholic, I wonder if Mendel could verify these hypotheses with a paint brush and some pea plant pollen?

[MustafaMc]

Wow, genetics humor!
Being a Catholic, I wonder if Mendel could verify these hypotheses with a paint brush and some pea plant pollen?

No, I don't think garden peas have the Original Sin gene, just us humans.:shade:

Mary's parents must both have had an extremely rare knockout mutation or a genetic recombination event for her to loose the OSXII gene that also kept it from passing on to Jesus. But then again did Jesus even have any of Mary's genes at all? Did God create a sperm and place it in Mary's womb to join with one of her eggs or did He create the zygote from scratch like He created Adam from clay?

[asiya45]

^ Brother thats to much for me to think about all at once.

:heated::omg:

[GodIsAll]

Now, who's to say garden peas are born without original sin? When we irrigate them, we may, in fact, be baptizing them.

A run-of-the-mill deletion of the chromosome segment containing the OS gene ought to prevent the inheritance of original sin, agreed? Then again, original sin could be a reccessive allele. The homologue contributed by God would have to contain a dominant "sinless" gene. This seems reasonable since original sin would reappear in the next generations, ensuring mankind will always be born with it...

This thread keeps getting weirder and weirder...and I'm not helping!

[Person1001]

Greetings and peace be with you Sumaiya54;

The Bible does not say much about the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve lived; but it seems to imply they had a fairly easy life. The garden had all the food they needed including the tree of life and if they kept eating from this tree they would live forever. It seems that Adam and Eve had a lot of freedom, because the only command God gave them was not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When they disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge, they disobeyed God for the first time, hence the original sin. It seems from this one act of disobedience, God knew how mankind would develop. We all suffer in this world today because of the original sin; because we continue to disobey God, we make our world full of injustice and evil.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

So 'original sin' isn't sin that people are born with? Why do certain christians baptise then?

[FideiDefensor]

If I may, here's my attempt at explaining the doctrine Original Sin. Prior to the Fall, Adam and Eve were perfect and enjoy the grace of God. In the Book of Genesis, it is inferred that they know not the difference between good and evil. That is true. As St. Augustine would have argued, evil is merely the absence of good. How can one knows evil if everything that surrounds him is good? However, in their pride, they spurn God, disobeyed His command and to be led astray. This sin forever wounded human nature, since Adam and Eve deliberately reject His perfection. Through Adam and Eve, we inherit this imperfection, causing us, like Adam and Eve, to lose sight of God and His perfect goodness. Thus, all men were born in this deprived state through the first men.

Sacramental baptism, in Christianity, is not only an affirmation of faith, but is also a means for God's grace and mercy to work through. Since God is the essence of good and perfection, no "good" human deeds can possibly meet the requirement of God, for if He judge us, who would be sinless? But God is merciful, and instead of us striving to meet his standards, He comes to our level and restore us to His friendship. Through Baptism, God restored us to the state of grace, and wipe away the taint of the original sin. However, even with baptism, one still suffers from the impaired nature caused by the original sin. Thus, those baptized are still capable of committing sins against God, and loss that state of grace. But God, in His infinite mercy, is willing to extend His forgiveness again and again, despite our unworthiness. This is why the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) exists, in which the penitent receives God's forgiveness through a priest and making a firm resolution not to sin again.

[Grace Seeker]

Having read the thread, it appears that some have confused the concept of "original sin" with "inherited depravity" (understandable since they are related concepts), but on the whole I would have to say that Mustafa's description of it probably comes closest to the general understanding of it.

My understanding of Original Sin is that the sin of disobedience of Adam and Eve (eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) is passed down to each and every human except for Mary, per the Immaculate Conception, and for Jesus as God Incarnate. In the Protestant faith the only way to be cleansed of one's 'Sinful Nature' is to accept Jesus as your personal saviour and to be baptized for the remission of sin. The sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross is the only acceptable means to be redeemed from sin, hence the songs such as 'Are You Washed in the Blood?' There is no concept of Original Sin in Islam and a child is not held accountable even for his own misdeeds until after he reaches puberty. Each person is accountable for his own sin, not that of his fathers.

Perhaps the tweaking I would do on this is to make clear that we don't believe that sin is genetically passed down to us, but that by violating the fellowship Adam (and Eve) were created to have with God and being discharged from the Garden, that none of us who have been born since that time are born into the unique fellowship relationship with God they were privileged to be placed in at the time of their creation. As a result, our natural state is to be born into a world already infected with sin just as a child born to an HIV mother receives it passed on to the child. Thus Christians don't believe that we are accountable for anyone else's sin any more than Muslims do. Apparently unlike Muslims we do believe that other people's sins have created an environment where one can still be stained by other people's sins and one needs to be washed clean of this as well.

[MustafaMc]

none of us who have been born since that time are born into the unique fellowship relationship with God they were privileged to be placed in at the time of their creation.

I don't disagree with this statement, but does it touch upon the concept of 'Original Sin'? 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 comes to mind, For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. My understanding here is of spiritual death and life and that without Christ all would remain spiritually dead.

we do believe that other people's sins have created an environment where one can still be stained by other people's sins and one needs to be washed clean of this as well

This comment seems contradictory to:

Christians don't believe that we are accountable for anyone else's sin

Can you help me understand the distinction?

[Grace Seeker]

The key to the last distinction, Mustafa, has to do with the difference between being personally accountable for another's actions and having to pay the consequences of another's actions.

If the waitress spills coffee on you as you're on your way to an job interview, you're certainly not personally accountable for her actions, but the reality is that you may still have to pay the consequences of those actions. I don't believe that God condemns me, you or anyone else to hell because of Adam's sin. But Adam's sin did create consequences for all of us in that the perfect fellowship we were created to have with God has been broken, and on our own we are unable to repair it. As a consequence of Adam having broken that perfect world, we live in a now fallen world.

When my wife and I got married, my aunt made us a handmade quilt, the type of thing that becomes a family heirloom. It was a treasured possession. One we chose not to mount on a wall for display purpose but actually used. One day my wife had it with her in the car when she got stuck on a mud road. She had always heard that when you got stuck in the mud put something under the wheels to give you traction. Believe it or not she choose to do that with the quilt. Needless to say she ruined the quilt (nor did she get herself out of the mud with it). We still have it. We were able to wash most of the mud out of it. But there are still stains. And there are also a few rips in the outer layer. I suppose it could still be passed on to our kids as a family heirloom. But it is a stained and ruined heirloom that my kids will inherit. Not as a result of what they did. Not something they will be held accountable for. But something they will nonetheless have to pay the price for as a consequence of their mother's actions.

So, I don't dispute that this is a spiritual issue. The separation from God that Adam and Eve experienced did indeed damage them and their soul. And they in turn continued to damage the world in which they lived and raised their family, who likewise were unable to erase the stain either. And eventually the stain of that fallenness rubs off on us. Have you ever met a person who never sinned, who always submitted, who never sought their own way and always sought to know and follow God's way? I have not. Our world can never go back to being like that which Adam and Eve were graced with, and we individually can never live without that stain they made in our lives, not in our own power anyway, not apart from God acting to restore us to the relationship he intended for us to have with him. For apart from the work and grace of God in our lives we always fall just a little bit short of his true will that he has for us. But that leads us to another conversation, not the subject of this thread.