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CosmicPathos
04-09-2012, 07:42 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17446831
Aside from that, the focus in most of our educational system is on religious subjects such as hadith (sayings attributed to the prophet), Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), tafssir (interpretation of the Koran) and of course the Koran. The attitude is that "learning itself, anything other than religion won't get you into heaven so don't waste your time". (of course it wont! Einstein will burn in Hell and so would Isaac Newton). I would like to see religious teaching limited to the Koran and the Sunna (the way the prophet lived), where the true ethics of Islam lie. The rest is blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind. It has left our youth vulnerable to fundamentalist ideologies that have led to terrorism and abuse of the true meaning of the Koran.

Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society. Early Islam was a time of great creativity. Scholars excelled in sciences and literature. Our religion should not be a shield behind which we hide from the world but a driving force that inspires us to innovate and contribute to our surroundings. This is the true spirit of Islam.



has she become a kaafira by doubting the authenticity of hadith? Other than that, her solutions are naive and too simplistic. What does she mean by "think freely?" Ultimate freedom in thinking is when you become misanthropic, do her morals allow such free thinking? Or do her morals allow thinking that makes incest okay? If she finds these things reprehensible then she is being a hypocrite by talking about "free thinking" yet limiting the sort of free thinking I've mentioned.
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marwen
04-09-2012, 07:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Saudi princess: What I'd change about my country ?
Want to change th country ? Just leave it.
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marwen
04-09-2012, 07:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
has she become a kaafira by doubting the authenticity of hadith?
Does she become a kaffira? that I don't know, but I rather see here the first signs of a filthy attempt to change islamic educational programs in KSA, who's behind her ... :hmm: you know.
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
I would like to see religious teaching limited to the Koran and the Sunna (the way the prophet lived), where the true ethics of Islam lie. The rest is blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind. It has left our youth vulnerable to fundamentalist ideologies that have led to terrorism and abuse of the true meaning of the Koran.
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ardianto
04-09-2012, 12:25 PM
I quote it from original site

Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir)
I bold the sentence in "( )" because I doubt, is this really spoken by Princess Basma, or added by BBC?. Usually words in "( )" in transcript of interview did not really spoken by the source.
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Cabdullahi
04-09-2012, 12:33 PM
its the bbc doing what it does best
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purple
04-09-2012, 12:34 PM
9 April 2012 Last updated at 00:21 Share this page

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Saudi princess: What I'd change about my country


Continue reading the main story In today's Magazine



Princess Basma Bint Saud Bin Abdulaziz tells the BBC there are many changes she would like to see in Saudi Arabia - but that now is not the time for women to be allowed to drive.
I speak as the daughter of King Saud, the former ruler of Saudi Arabia. My father established the first women's university in the kingdom, abolished slavery and tried to establish a constitutional monarchy that separates the position of king from that of prime minister. But I am saddened to say that my beloved country today has not fulfilled that early promise.
Our ancient culture, of which I am very proud, is renowned for its nobility and generosity, but we lack, and urgently need, fundamental civil laws with which to govern our society.
As a daughter, sister, (former) wife, mother, businesswoman and a working journalist, these are the things that I would like to see changed in Saudi Arabia.
1. Constitution

Princess Basma is divorced and lives with her children in London
I would like to see a proper constitution that treats all men and women on an equal footing before the law but that also serves as a guide to our civil laws and political culture.
For example, today in Saudi courts, all decisions are made according to the individual judge's interpretation of the holy Koran. This is entirely dependent on his own personal beliefs and upbringing rather than universally agreed principles or a written constitution as a guide.
I am not calling for a western system but an adaptation of that system to suit our needs and culture. Thus our constitution should be inspired by the philosophy of the Koran with principles that are set in stone and not open to the whims of individual judges as is the case now.
In particular, the constitution should protect every citizen's basic human rights regardless of their sex, status or sect. Everyone should be equal before the law.
2. Divorce laws

Continue reading the main story “Start Quote

Our religion should not be a shield behind which we hide from the world but a driving force that inspires us to innovate and contribute to our surroundings”
End Quote
I strongly believe that current divorce laws are abusive.
Today in Saudi, a woman can ask for a divorce only if she files for what is called "Khali and Dhali". This means either she pays a big sum of money running into tens of thousands of dollars or she has to get someone to witness the reason why she is filing for a divorce - an impossible condition to fulfil given that such reasons usually are the kind that remain within the four walls of a marriage.
Another way to keep a woman in the marital home against her will is the automatic granting of custody of any children over the age of six to the father in any divorce settlements.
This state of affairs is in complete contradiction to the Koran, upon which our laws are supposed to be based. In it a woman is given full rights to divorce simply in the case of "irreconcilable differences".
3. Overhaul of the education system

Continue reading the main story An insular kingdom


  • Established in 1932 by King Abd-al-Aziz
  • One of the most devout and insular countries in the Middle East
  • The royal family is 15,000 strong
  • The Al Saud dynasty holds a monopoly of power; political parties are banned
  • Saudi women live a restricted life and are banned from driving
  • The country includes the Hijaz region - the birthplace of the Prophet Muhammad and the cradle of Islam
  • Saudi Arabia sits on more than 25% of the world's known oil reserves

The way women today are treated in Saudi Arabia is a direct result of the education our children, boys and girls, receive at school.
The content of the syllabus is extremely dangerous. For one, our young are taught that a woman's position in society is inferior. Her role is strictly limited to serving her family and raising children. They are actually taught that if a woman has to worship anyone other than God it should be her husband; "that the angels will curse her if she is not submissive to her husband's needs". Girls are also strictly forbidden from taking part in any physical education. This is a result of a complete misinterpretation of the Koran. I consider these ideologies to be inherently abusive.
Aside from that, the focus in most of our educational system is on religious subjects such as hadith (sayings attributed to the prophet), Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), tafssir (interpretation of the Koran) and of course the Koran. The attitude is that "learning itself, anything other than religion won't get you into heaven so don't waste your time". I would like to see religious teaching limited to the Koran and the Sunna (the way the prophet lived), where the true ethics of Islam lie. The rest is blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind. It has left our youth vulnerable to fundamentalist ideologies that have led to terrorism and abuse of the true meaning of the Koran.
Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society. Early Islam was a time of great creativity. Scholars excelled in sciences and literature. Our religion should not be a shield behind which we hide from the world but a driving force that inspires us to innovate and contribute to our surroundings. This is the true spirit of Islam.
4. A complete reform of social services

The ministry of social affairs is tolerating cruelty towards women rather than protecting them. The only refuge homes that abused women can turn to are state ones. In these, women are continuously told that by seeking refuge they have brought shame on their families.
Continue reading the main story What do you think?

  • Do you live in Saudi Arabia?
  • Send us your views on the princess's comments, using the form at the bottom of the page
  • A selection will be published

If they come from powerful families then they will be sent straight back to their homes in fear of the wrath of a powerful patriarch. As a result we have seen many cases of suicide by educated women, doctors and scientists who were sent back to their abusers.
We need independent women's refuges where the rights of women are upheld and backed up by powerful laws that can override family traditions and protect women.
The ministry of social affairs not only abuses women's rights but is also one of the reasons poverty is rife in the kingdom. A corrupt system that lacks transparency has meant that more than 50% of our population is poor and needy even though we are one of the wealthiest countries on earth.
5. The role of the Mahram (chaperone)

Women in Saudi cannot get around or travel without a mahram (a kind of chaperone - usually a male relative).
At the time of the prophet, women used to have a man to accompany them but in those days Arabia was a desert literally full of pirates.
Today the only purpose of such a law is to curtail women's freedom of movement. This not only infantilises women but turns them unnecessarily into a burden on their men and on society.
Today women in Saudi Arabia are not allowed to drive.
Continue reading the main story Princess Basma


  • Youngest daughter of the country's second king and niece to its current ruler
  • Educated in Britain and Switzerland
  • Lives in Acton, London
  • Princess Basma, pictured above pointing to her place in the Saudi family tree, was interviewed by Outlook on the BBC World Service


This one seems to concern western observers the most but there are more essential rights we need to obtain first.
I am definitely for women driving but I don't think this is the right time for a reversal of this law. In the current climate if a woman drives, she could be stopped, harassed beaten or worse to teach her a lesson.
This is why I am against women driving until we are educated enough and until we have the necessary laws to protect us from such madness. Otherwise we might as well hand out a licence to the extremists to abuse us further. If as drivers we get harassed, they will say to the Islamic world "see what happens when women drive, they get harassed they get beaten" and they will call for even more stringent laws to control women. This is something we can't afford. Fundamental changes in the law and its attitude to women are needed before we take this step.
On the whole it is the rights and freedoms of all citizens that are crucial in Saudi Arabia and from those the rights of women will emanate.
Princess Basma Bint Saud Bin Abdulaziz spoke to Outlook on the BBC World Service.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17446831


I copied and pasted the article.
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Muhammad
04-09-2012, 02:02 PM
:sl:

Let us leave the issue of whether this individual has become a kaafir or not, because it's not our place to speak about this and neither is it of any benefit to us. Instead we can challenge the points raised in the article and argue, for instance, that "fundamentalist ideologies" and "abuse of the true meaning of the Qur'an" occur when people lack the proper understanding of Islam. If sciences dedicated to the proper understanding of the sources of Islam are being opposed, then the problems she seeks to solve will only become worse. If it is early Islam that we should look at, then reinterpreting Islam is not the answer, rather it is going back to the authentic teachings of Islam that scholars of the past and present have been calling to.
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purple
04-09-2012, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
:sl:

Let us leave the issue of whether this individual has become a kaafir or not, because it's not our place to speak about this and neither is it of any benefit to us. Instead we can challenge the points raised in the article and argue, for instance, that "fundamentalist ideologies" and "abuse of the true meaning of the Qur'an" occur when people lack the proper understanding of Islam. If sciences dedicated to the proper understanding of the sources of Islam are being opposed, then the problems she seeks to solve will only become worse. If it is early Islam that we should look at, then reinterpreting Islam is not the answer, rather it is going back to the authentic teachings of Islam that scholars of the past and present have been calling to.
I think you misunderstood her. I gathered from the article that she meant it was okay to study other subject like alongside with islamic studies. She is saying that studying other topics in Saudi is looked down upon. But I dont know whether this statement is true.

Aside from that, the focus in most of our educational system is on religious subjects such as hadith (sayings attributed to the prophet), Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), tafssir (interpretation of the Koran) and of course the Koran. The attitude is that "learning itself, anything other than religion won't get you into heaven so don't waste your time".
She did not say that Saudi should look to Science for answers. Please read the article.

And the bloded parts you have written is exactly what she has already said in the article.




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Muhammad
04-09-2012, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by purple
I think you misunderstood her. I gathered from the article that she meant it was okay to study other subject like alongside with islamic studies. She is saying that studying other topics in Saudi is looked down upon. But I dont know whether this statement is true.
She may have meant that. But she also says she wants to see Islamic education limited, and makes disparaging remarks about Islamic education:
I would like to see religious teaching limited to the Koran and the Sunna (the way the prophet lived), where the true ethics of Islam lie. The rest is blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind. It has left our youth vulnerable to fundamentalist ideologies that have led to terrorism and abuse of the true meaning of the Koran.
Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society.
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purple
04-09-2012, 02:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
She may have meant that. But she also says she wants to see Islamic education limited, and makes disparaging remarks about Islamic education:
I would like to see religious teaching limited to the Koran and the Sunna (the way the prophet lived), where the true ethics of Islam lie. The rest is blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind. It has left our youth vulnerable to fundamentalist ideologies that have led to terrorism and abuse of the true meaning of the Koran.
Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society.
I didnt read the article fully so I apologies. I disagree with that. But she makes a valid points on other issues as well as her point young people shouldn’t be discourage to study other subjects, if it is true.
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TrueStranger
04-09-2012, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
She may have meant that. But she also says she wants to see Islamic education limited, and makes disparaging remarks about Islamic education:
I would like to see religious teaching limited to the Koran and the Sunna (the way the prophet lived), where the true ethics of Islam lie. The rest is blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind. It has left our youth vulnerable to fundamentalist ideologies that have led to terrorism and abuse of the true meaning of the Koran.
Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society.
Salaam Aliakum,


What do you mean by limiting? If I recall correct the Prophet (PBUH) himself has said: ""I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray." during his last sermon.

As for this part
" Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society
"

I'm not certain if the words inside the brackets are hers, since journalists usually use brackets to put words into people's mouths.
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CosmicPathos
04-09-2012, 03:36 PM
it is good point that has been mentioend that the words in brackets might not be hers. I am not sure.

If you read the article though, assuming the rest of words are hers, she has made disparaging comments about Islamic education and how it ruins young minds. She wants it to be limited, and re-interpreted. What she is basically saying that for 1400 years till now, Islam has been mis-interpreted and she is the Messiah to save her people from the deep pit of ignorance they are in, by pointing out the rusted Islamic sciences. She thinks people should be allowed to think freely, like Hamza Kashgar, and she does not address the consequences of such free thinking. Does she abhor homosexuality? Does she abhor drinking and partying it out? All those are necessary for free thinking to be truly in effect. I have not met a brilliant scientist who either does not drink or does not commit zina (since they are so vocal about it).

She does not admit that free thinking means she should give up her "princess" status and all the benefits she takes advantage of due to it! Because she has not earned it but inherited it, unjustly. Of course why would she give up her princess status!

it is hypocritical for a princess to teach us about morals. she could do well by starting from herself, by getting rid of her princess-hood.
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White Rose
04-09-2012, 03:50 PM
The moment I read innovation, I figured what she actually meant :raging:
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ardianto
04-09-2012, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
If you read the article though, assuming the rest of words are hers, she has made disparaging comments about Islamic education and how it ruins young minds. She wants it to be limited, and re-interpreted. What she is basically saying that for 1400 years till now, Islam has been mis-interpreted and she is the Messiah to save her people from the deep pit of ignorance they are in, by pointing out the rusted Islamic sciences.
She didn't say Islam has been misinterpreted or should be re-interpreted. She just criticize misinterpretation of Qur'an that done by some people that made women have inferior position in society.

Ulama in my place never taught ummah that women are inferior, men are superior. Even they taught, in Islam, women are partner for men, although there are differences about duties and rights between men and women.
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CosmicPathos
04-09-2012, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Ulama in my place never taught ummah that women are inferior, men are superior. Even they taught, in Islam, women are partner for men, although there are differences about duties and rights between men and women.
I lived in saudi for more than 15 years, I was never taught that women are inferior to men in terms of getting sawaab. And I've been to different madrassas.
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Muhammad
04-09-2012, 05:05 PM
Wa Alaykum Assalaam,

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
What do you mean by limiting? If I recall correct the Prophet (PBUH) himself has said: ""I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray." during his last sermon.
The person quoted in the article is the one who said she wants to see Islamic education limited - I don't know exactly what she means. Yet everything in Islam is interlinked - Tafseer, Hadeeth, Fiqh and so on. It is all derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah.
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GuestFellow
04-09-2012, 06:19 PM
Salaam,

I do think it is helpful to learn about other religions and ideologies, well helpful for me at least. As a result, Islam made more sense to me. To not make students aware of different religions and beliefs is not preparing them for the real world. This is important as globalisation is taking effect.
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TrueStranger
04-09-2012, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Wa Alaykum Assalaam,

The person quoted in the article is the one who said she wants to see Islamic education limited - I don't know exactly what she means. Yet everything in Islam is interlinked - Tafseer, Hadeeth, Fiqh and so on. It is all derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah.
No one is entirely sure what her intent is, but she did not say " 'Islamic' education should be limited", but that "religious teaching" be limited to the Qu'ran and the Sunnah.

"I would like to see religious teaching limited to the Koran and the Sunna (the way the prophet lived), where the true ethics of Islam lie."


In Islam everything is intertwined, but that does not mean that human perception does not shape the practice of Islam differently in various times and situations. The main idea is to return to the fundamentals and I think everyone will agree.

Salaam Aliakum
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aamirsaab
04-09-2012, 06:55 PM
I think people are taking her words out of context and being extremely selective when it comes to highlighting core issues with what she is saying.

I'd like to drop something from the quoted transcript the OP posted (yes, I realise the irony):

"Early Islam was a time of great creativity. Scholars excelled in sciences and literature. Our religion should not be a shield behind which we hide from the world but a driving force that inspires us to innovate and contribute to our surroundings. This is the true spirit of Islam."

I don't think any of that is wrong at all. Similarly, I don't see how one can drop utterances of kuffar (or hypocricy) after having read that particular sentence as I am pretty sure we're all in agreement with it!

Regarding her views on reform, I agree in full. Note she specifically states she's not calling for westernization, rather adaptation in order to provide consistency with the law. This is perfectly fine under Islamic jurisprudence. Heck, it's required in order to even have a just legal system in the first place.

I don't know why people are up in arms about what she is saying. For years we've all been saying how corrupt S.A's laws are and how they need to change. The Saudi princess finally comes and out says the same thing and suddenly she's a hypocrite? :heated:
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GuestFellow
04-09-2012, 07:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab

"Early Islam was a time of great creativity. Scholars excelled in sciences and literature. Our religion should not be a shield behind which we hide from the world but a driving force that inspires us to innovate and contribute to our surroundings. This is the true spirit of Islam."
Salaam,

I doubt Muslims are using Islam as a shield to hide from the world. Overall, I agree with some of the things she said but I'm concerned about her views on the Hadiths.

I don't think any of that is wrong at all. Similarly, I don't see how one can drop utterances of kuffar (or hypocricy) after having read that particular sentence as I am pretty sure we're all in agreement with it!
I am concerned that some Muslims are quick to use the term kuffar, especially when they are not Islamic scholars. For lay Muslims, it is best just to correct other Muslims if they know what they're talking about and not make such serious allegations.
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Muhammad
04-09-2012, 09:59 PM
Wa Alaykum Assalaam,

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
No one is entirely sure what her intent is, but she did not say " 'Islamic' education should be limited", but that "religious teaching" be limited to the Qu'ran and the Sunnah.
I may have misunderstood this part of the article. My understanding was that she wanted to see religious teaching limited because some of it is 'blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind', and she said, 'Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society.' Reading this again, it seems different things can be understood, so there is no point in making assumptions and getting caught up over what might not be true.
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Cabdullahi
04-09-2012, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Wa Alaykum Assalaam,

I may have misunderstood this part of the article. My understanding was that she wanted to see religious teaching limited because some of it is 'blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind', and she said, 'Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society.' Reading this again, it seems different things can be understood, so there is no point in making assumptions and getting caught up over what might not be true.
boqoradan iska dhaf saxiib!....boqorad soomaaliyeed baad doonaysa ban filaya

ilahay amarkiis!
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TrueStranger
04-09-2012, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Wa Alaykum Assalaam,

I may have misunderstood this part of the article. My understanding was that she wanted to see religious teaching limited because some of it is 'blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind', and she said, 'Instead of wasting our youths' intellect on memorising quotations whose origins is uncertain (such as those found in hadith, Fiqh and tafssir) we need to encourage them to think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society.' Reading this again, it seems different things can be understood, so there is no point in making assumptions and getting caught up over what might not be true.
This is not as complicated as it appears. The words in the brackets are not hers. She clearly stated that religious teachings should be limited to the Qu'ran and Sunnah, not because "some of it is blind rote learning", but because that is "where the true ethics of Islam lie"

And anything other than the Qu'ran and the Sunnah is.....

The rest is blind rote learning of the most dangerous kind. It has left our youth vulnerable to fundamentalist ideologies that have led to terrorism and abuse of the true meaning of the Koran.
It's reasonable to say that the violence and injustice committed by some Muslims in the name of Islam have nothing to do with the teachings of the Qu'ran and Sunnah.

She encouraged the youth to
think freely, innovate and use their initiative for the betterment of our society
The key words here are "for the betterment of Society". This part has nothing to do with thinking freely and innovatively about the teachings of Islam, but rather issues pertaining to the improvement of society.

The woman believes in the Sunnah and the Qu'ran, and questioning other sources or the status quo is not necessarily wrong. I would see if someone found fault in her reasoning had she opposed the Sunnah or/and the Quran, but brother that's not the case here.
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GuestFellow
04-09-2012, 11:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
The key words here are "for the betterment of Society". This part has nothing to do with thinking freely and innovatively about the teachings of Islam, but rather issues pertaining to the improvement of society.
Salaam,

That makes more sense now. I'm slightly confused due to the way the article was presented.

The woman believes in the Sunnah and the Qu'ran, and questioning other sources or the status quo is not necessarily wrong. I would see if someone found fault in her reasoning had she opposed the Sunnah or/and the Quran, but brother that's not the case here.
I remember reading some Islamic book saying that there are many Hadiths that were fabricated. Some came into conflict with the Qur'an's version of events, so were rejected.
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TrueStranger
04-09-2012, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

That makes more sense now. I'm slightly confused due to the way the article was presented.
Waliakum Salaam

As long as she does not oppose the Qu'ran and the Sunnah, then her opinion is just an opinion.


I remember reading some Islamic book saying that there are many Hadiths that were fabricated. Some came into conflict with the Qur'an's version of events, so were rejected.
The process of determining whether or not a hadith is sahih (authentic), hasan (good), daif (weak), or batil (forged) is not easy and requires careful consideration, analysis, and observation. May Allah be with those who undertake that task.
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Banu_Hashim
04-10-2012, 02:03 AM
JazakAllah Khayr for sharing. Some interesting points raised...
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