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GuestFellow
04-21-2012, 10:18 PM
Salaam,

I'm curious. What are your views on women who are raped? I mean, do you think it's their fault?

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, I have yet to give my opinion on this matter. The reason why I created this topic is because I have met many people saying that it is the victim's fault for being raped, usually the women.

Also, how would you feel if one of your relatives was raped? Would you still be willing to apportion the blame her?

So share your views.

Hope I did not offend anyone.
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Alpha Dude
04-21-2012, 10:29 PM
Wa alaykum salam

I don't see the reason behind asking such a question.

The crime of rape lies on the man himself. On the day of judgement, it is the man who would be punished. This is all that matters.

A woman who were to go out into a known dangerous area in the dead of night for no real reason despite being warned against it can be seen as extremely stupid and foolish or arrogant but the blame of the actual act would of course lie on the man.
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GuestFellow
04-21-2012, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Wa alaykum salam

I don't see the reason behind asking such a question.
:sl:

Just curious to hear what members have to say and because of this...

A woman who were to go out into a known dangerous area in the dead of night for no real reason despite being warned against it can be seen as extremely stupid and foolish or arrogant but the blame of the actual act would of course lie on the man.
This is where some people start to blame the women. Had the women not gone to a dangerous area, she would not have been raped. Some would say that it was her fault to a certain extent.

Also, why would a women go in a known dangerous area in the dead of the night for no reason? It does not sound plausible that some women would be willing to go into a well-known dangerous area at night for no apparent reason.
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CosmicPathos
04-21-2012, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Also, why would a women go in a known dangerous area in the dead of the night for no reason? It does not sound plausible that some women would be willing to go into a well-known dangerous area at night for no apparent reason.
why not? Are they angels? If men can dwell in such areas, why wont women?

I think Alpha has given a succinct response based on what Islam says.

A rapist is always gonna rape, this can be attributed to mental pathologies and diseases, as well those of the soul and heart. We can try to decrease these mental pathologies, we can never eliminate them. To that extent, a woman who plays around with what a sick person enjoys and then she gets the terrible result, it is illogical to say she was a pious jannati in the first place.

if a niqabi woman walkign with her husband or mehram gets raped, I wish that rapist gets Islamic punishment, and I wish that woman gets all the counselling and would have my sympathies. If a woman wearing Western dress gets raped, I wish that rapist gets Islamic punishment and I wish that woman gets counselling, but she wont have my sympathies.
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GuestFellow
04-21-2012, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
why not? Are they angels? If men can dwell in such areas, why wont women?
Salaam,

I don't know.
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Alpha Dude
04-21-2012, 10:56 PM
Also, why would a women go in a known dangerous area in the dead of the night for no reason? It does not sound plausible that some women would be willing to go into a well-known dangerous area at night for no apparent reason.
Come on, Typo... that was just a hypothetical example. I.e. an example of carelessness and willingly throwing oneself into danger.
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GuestFellow
04-21-2012, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos

if a niqabi woman walkign with her husband or mehram gets raped, I wish that rapist gets Islamic punishment, and I wish that woman gets all the counselling. If a woman wearing Western dress gets raped, I wish that rapist gets Islamic punishment and I wish that woman gets counselling, but she doesnt have my sympathies.
Interesting, but I doubt a rape victim needs pity and sympathy from a complete stranger as they have no use for it.
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CosmicPathos
04-21-2012, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Interesting, but I doubt a rape victim needs pity and sympathy from a complete stranger as they have no use for it.
whatever floats her sinking boat.
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Alpha Dude
04-21-2012, 10:58 PM
Think about it this way... when a person steals from a store, it is the he who is punished by the law. They don't slap any fine or prison sentence on the shop keeper for not having any security and making it easy on the thief.

Again, it would be stupid of the shop keeper to not keep his products secure but he can't be blamed or punished for someone else's crime.
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TrueStranger
04-21-2012, 10:59 PM
What is a well-known dangerous place? Most women get raped by someone they know.

A well needed information.

Myth: Rape is sex.

Fact: Rape is experienced by the victims as an act of violence. It is a life-threatening experience. One out of every eight adult women has been a victim of forcible rape. (National Victim Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, 1992) While sexual attraction may be influential, power, control and anger are the primary motives. Most rapists have access to a sexual partner. Gratification comes from gaining power and control and discharging anger. This gratification is only temporary, so the rapist seeks another victim.

Myth: Women incite men to rape.

Fact: Research has found that the vast majority of rapes are planned. Rape is the responsibility of the rapist alone. Women, children and men of every age, physical type and demeanor are raped. Opportunity is the most important factor determining when a given rapist will rape.

Myth: There is a "right way" to respond to a rape situation.

Fact:Since rape is life-threatening and each rapist has his own pattern, the best thing a victim can do is follow her instincts and observe any cues from the rapist. If the victim escapes alive she has done the right thing.

Myth:A victim should be discouraged from dwelling on the rape. She should "forget it".

Fact: This advice generally comes from people who are more concerned with their own feelings than the victim's. All victims should be offered the opportunity to talk about the assault with those personally close to them and knowledgeable professionals. Victims who are not allowed to talk about the rape have a much more difficult time recovering form it.

Myth:Support from family members is essential to the victim's recovery.

Fact: A Victim Services study found that emotional and practical support offered by family and friends does not necessarily speed the recovery of rape victims. However, when the people that a victim relies on behave in un supportive or negative ways, the victim faces a longer, more difficult recovery process. These negative behaviors include worrying more about oneself that the victim, blaming the victim, withdrawing from the victim or behaving in a hostile manner, and attaching a stigma to the rape and demanding secrecy from the victim.

Myth:Rape trauma syndrome is a transient problem. Most healthy people will return to a normal state of functioning within a year.

Fact: Surviving a rape can lead a woman to a better understanding of her own strength, but rape is a life changing experience. Rape has a devastating effect on the mental health of victims, with nearly one-third (31%) of all rape victims developing Rape-related Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (RR-PTSD) some time in their lifetimes. More than one in ten rape victims currently suffer from RR-PTSD. (National Victim Center and Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center)

Myth: Rapists are non-white. Rapists are lower class. Rapists are "Criminal types".

Fact: Rapists that fit the myth are more likely to be prosecuted but a rapist can be anyone: doctor, policeman, clergyman, social worker or corporate president.

Myth: Men can't be raped.

Fact: There were approximately 20,000 sexual assaults of males ages 12 and over in the United States in 1991. (Bureau of Justice statistics, 1992)

Myth: Incest is rare.

Fact: Incest is common and happens in every community. An estimated 77% of reported sexual abusers are parents (57% of the total being natural parents), 16% are other relatives, and 6% are non-related. In addition, males are reported to be the abusers in 60 to 95% of cases. (Thoringer, School Psychology Review, 17 (4):614-636)

Myth: Sexual assaults are rare deviations and affect few people. After all, no one I know has been raped.

Fact: Sexual assaults are very common. Most likely, someone close to you has been profoundly affected by sexual assault. Not only are victims reluctant to discuss their assaults but many succeed in totally blocking the assault from conscious memory. However, the trauma remains and may come to the surface at another crisis or when the opportunity to discuss it with a sympathetic person arises. An estimated 155,000 women were raped each year between 1973 and 1987. (U.S. Department of Justice, 1991)

Myth: Women often make false reports of rape.

Fact: According to FBI crime statistics, during the 1990s around 8 percent. The “unfounded” rate, or percentage of complaints determined through investigation to be false, is higher for forcible rape than for any other Index crime. Eight percent of forcible rape complaints in 1996 were “unfounded,” while the average for all Index crimes was 2 percent.

Myth: You can tell a rapist by the way he looks.

Fact: Rapists are not physically identifiable. They may appear friendly, normal, and non-threatening. Many are young, married and have children. Rapist types and traits however can be categorized.

Myth: Women fantasize about being raped.

Fact: No woman fantasizes about being raped. Fantasies about aggressive sex may be controlled and turned off if they become threatening. In rape, the victim is unable to control the violence and stop it.

Myth: A man can't rape his wife.

Fact: Many states now have laws against rape in marriage. The idea that a man can't rape his wife suggests married women do not have the same right to safety as do unmarried women. Most battered women have experienced some form of sexual abuse within their marriage. It is also known that estranged or ex-spouses sometimes use rape as a form of retaliation.

Myth: Only "bad" women get raped.

Fact: No other crime victim is looked upon with the degree of suspicion and doubt as a victim of rape. Although there are numerous reasons why society has cast blame on the victims of rape, a major reason found in studies is that of a feeling of self protection. If one believes that the victim was responsible because she put herself in an unsafe position, such as being out late at night, drinking alcohol, dressing in a certain way, or "leading on" the rapist, then we are able to feel safer because "we wouldn't do those things." But, the basic fact remains that without consent, no means no, no matter what the situation or circumstances.

Myth: Rape is just unwanted sex and isn't really a violent crime.

Fact: Rape is a lot more than an unwanted sex act, it is a violent crime. Many rapists carry a weapon and threaten the victim with violence or death.

Myth: Rape only occurs outside and at night.

Fact: Rape can and does occur anytime and anyplace. Many rapes occur during the day and in the victims' homes.

Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, spontaneous act.

Fact: Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way.

Myth: Sexual assault usually occurs between strangers.

Fact: By some estimates, over 70% of rape victims know their attackers. The rapist may be a relative, friend, co-worker, date or other acquaintance.

Myth: Rape only happens to young attractive women.

Fact: Rape can and does strike anyone at anytime. Age, social class, ethnic group and has no bearing on the person a rapist chooses to attack. Research data clearly proves that a way a woman dresses and / or acts does not influence the rapists choice of victims. His decision to rape is based on how easily he perceives his target can be intimidated. Rapists are looking for available and vulnerable targets.

Statistics were obtained from various sources including the study Rape in America, 1992, National Victim Center, The Federal Bureau of Investigations and the National Crime Survey.

Myth: Rape is a crime of passion.

Fact: Rape is an act of VIOLENCE, not passion. it is an attempt to hurt and humiliate, using sex as the weapon.

Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger.

Fact: Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.

Myth:Most rapists only rape one time.

FACT Most rapists rape again, and again, and again - until caught.

Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me.

FACTRapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.

Myth: Only women and gay men get raped.

FACT The vast majority of male rape victims, as well as their rapists, are heterosexual.Male rape victims now represent 8% of the primary victims served by the Orange County Rape Crisis Center. Rapists are motivated by the desire to have power and control over another person, not by sexual attraction. Male rape is not homosexual rape. Many male victims do not report the assault because they fear further humiliation.

Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself.

FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.

Myth: No woman or man can be raped against her or his will. Any person could prevent rape if he or she really wanted to.

FACT In 1991, 14% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center involved the use of a weapon. 74% involved physical force and/or threats of force. Women are often physically weaker than men and are not taught to defend themselves or to be physically aggressive. Furthermore, some women are not willing to hurt another person, especially if the offender is someone they know.

Myth: Most rapes occur when people are out alone at night. If people stay at home, then they will be safer.

FACT 44% of rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991 occurred in the victim's home.

Myth: Rapists are strangers. If people avoid strangers, then they will not be raped.

FACT In 60% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991, the rapist was known to the victim. 7% of the assailants were family members of the victim. These statistics reflect only reported rapes. Assaults by assailants the victim knows are often not reported so the statistics do not reflect the actual numbers of acquaintance rapes.

Myth: If the assailant, victim, or both are drunk, the assailant cannot be charged with rape.

FACT Forcing sex on someone who is too drunk to give consent is second degree rape in North Carolina. [It carries a prison sentence of up to 17 years.] Rape is a crime. People who commit crimes while under the influence of alcohol or drugs are not considered free from guilt.

Myth: Most rapes involve black men and white women.

FACT 77% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991 involved persons of the same race.

Myth: Rapists are abnormal perverts; only sick or insane men are rapists.

FACT In a study of 1300 convicted offenders, few were diagnosed as mentally or emotionally ill. Most were well-adjusted but had a greater tendency to express their anger through violence and rage.

Myth: Rape is a minor crime affecting only a few women.

FACT It is estimated that 1 in 8 women will be raped in her lifetime. Because of low reporting rates, it is not known how many adult men are assaulted. It is also estimated that 1 out of every 4 girls, and 1 out of every 8 boys are sexually assaulted in some way before they reach adulthood. Rape is the most frequently committed violent crime in this country.

Myth: Women frequently cry rape; false reporting of rape is common.

FACT The FBI reports that only 2% of rapes reports are given falsely. This is the same report rate for other felonies.

Myth: Most rapes occur on the street, by strangers, or by a few crazy men.

FACT Over 50% of reported rapes occur in the home. 80% of sexual assaults reported by college age women and adult women were perpetrated by close friends or family members. There is no common profile of a rapist. Rapes are committed by people from all economic levels, all races, all occupations. A rapist can be your doctor, your boss, your clergyman, your superintendent, your partner, your lover, your friend or your date.

Myth: You cannot be assaulted against your will.

FACT Assailants overpower their victims with the threat of violence or with actual violence. Especially in cases of acquaintance rape or incest, an assailant often uses the victim's trust in him to isolate her.

Myth: Women secretly enjoy being raped.

FACT No woman/ man/ child enjoys being raped. It is a brutal intrusion on the mind, body and spirit that can have lasting trauma.

Myth: It is impossible for a husband to sexually assault his wife.

FACT Regardless of marital or social relationship, if a woman does not consent to sexual activity, she is being sexually assaulted. In fact, 14% of women are victims of rape committed by their husband.

Myth: If a person doesn't "fight back" she/he wasn't really raped.

FACT Rape is potentially life-threatening. Whatever a person does to survive the assault is the appropriate action.

Myth: A person who has really been assaulted will be hysterical.

FACT: Survivors exhibit a spectrum of emotional responses to assault: calm, hysteria, laughter, anger, apathy, shock. Each survivor copes with the trauma of the assault in a different way.

Myth: Women "ask for it" by their dress or actions.

FACT Rapists look for victims they perceive as vulnerable, not women who dress in a particular way. Assuming that women provoke attacks by where they are or the way they dress is victim-blaming. No person, whatever their behaviour, "deserves" to be raped.

Myth: Women "cry" rape.

FACT Only two percent of reported rape and related sex offences are false (which is approximately the same rate of false reports for other crimes). Although many cases are dropped because of insufficient evidence for conviction, this should not be confused with false reporting.

Myth: Gang rape is rare.

FACT: In 43% of all reported cases, more than one assailant was involved.

Myth: Women who are drunk are willing to engage in any kind of sexual activity.

FACT The fact that a woman has been drinking does not imply consent. Alcohol and drugs can render a woman incapable of consent.

Myth: Only young, pretty women are assaulted.

FACT Survivors range in age from infancy to old age, and their appearance is seldom a consideration. Assailants often choose victims who seem most vulnerable to attack: old persons, children, physically or emotionally disabled persons, substance abusers and street persons. Men are also attacked.

Myth: It is impossible to sexually assault a man.

FACT Men fall victim for the same reasons as women: they are overwhelmed by threats or acts of physical and emotional violence. Also, most sexual assaults that involve a male victim are gang assaults.

Myth: As long as children remember to stay away from strangers, they are in no danger of being assaulted.

FACT Sadly, children are usually assaulted by acquaintances; a family member or other caretaking adult. Children are usually coerced into sexual activity by their assailant, and are manipulated into silence by the assailant's threats and/or promises, as well as their own feelings of guilt.

Myth: Most rapes involve black men raping white women.

FACT The majority of rapes are same race; womewhere around 3 to 4% are not same race
.
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jha...925/myths.html
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CosmicPathos
04-21-2012, 11:00 PM
and that is why Islam always say that the rapist be punished, whether he/she was provoked or not.

if a shopekeepr with world's best security ssytem gets robbed, we'd feel more sad for him, compared to a shop keeper who was careless and didnt even lock his doors. although I am not a fan of these analogies.
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GuestFellow
04-21-2012, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Come on, Typo... that was just a hypothetical example. I.e. an example of carelessness and willingly throwing oneself into danger.
Salaam,

From my perspective, it is not a plausible example. Besides, if you are able to do so, I would you like to address my point. If a women were to place herself in danger, would it have been her fault that she was raped to a certain extent?
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Alpha Dude
04-21-2012, 11:01 PM
What is a well-known dangerous place? Most women get raped by someone they know.
Ugh. Why are people getting hung up on that sentence? It's just something I used to draw example to carelessness. No need to dwell on it too deeply..
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Alpha Dude
04-21-2012, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

From my perspective, it is not a plausible example. Besides, if you are able to do so, I would you like to address my point. If a women were to place herself in danger, would it have been her fault that she was raped to a certain extent?
I've already answered that. Quite plainly...

Anyways, no. We can call her stupid, but we can't say it was her fault.

Bad things happen due to the will of Allah. A woman could be raped in her home, if Allah were to will that as a test upon her.
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TrueStranger
04-21-2012, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Ugh. Why are people getting hung up on that sentence? It's just something I used to draw example to carelessness. No need to dwell on it too deeply..
No one is careless when it comes to getting raped or killed. Think a little bit deeper about your examples and maybe people won't dwell on them.
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CosmicPathos
04-21-2012, 11:05 PM
ooh, on one hand they claim most rapes are not reported, and then they say majority of rapes are planned? How can you know what happens in majority, when the unknown is far greater than the known. Someone was drunk when writing that essay. And ooh the irony, many rapes happen when one is drunk. So maybe this drunkard is a part of the rapist's club too.
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Alpha Dude
04-21-2012, 11:05 PM
Anyways, define 'blame' here. When you think of that word, it implies punishment. Punishment in the case of rape is exclusive to the rapist.

So, again, like I said in my first post, the topic is really a moot one. People dwell on these issues and make mountains out of molehills.
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CosmicPathos
04-21-2012, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
People dwell on these issues and make mountains out of molehills.
yup, attention seeking behavior it is properly called.
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TrueStranger
04-21-2012, 11:09 PM
The topic is more likely to show the sadistic side of some people.
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Alpha Dude
04-21-2012, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by TrueStranger
No one is careless when it comes to getting raped or killed. Think a little bit deeper about your examples and maybe people won't dwell on the.
I kindly urge you and everyone else to pause and ponder on what I said in my first post with a clear mind and then see what I was saying rather than reach half-baked conclusions.

I simply said:

A woman who were to go out into a known dangerous area in the dead of night for no real reason despite being warned against it can be seen as extremely stupid and foolish or arrogant but the blame of the actual act would of course lie on the man.
This is not to say that all rape happens when someone goes out into a dangerous place at night all alone. Did I say that anywhere? No. I only chose this example as this is what people usually assume when they apportion blame. Hence the need to mention it as an example. Again, there is no need to remain hung up on it. Move on.
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CosmicPathos
04-21-2012, 11:11 PM
sadism is a humanly characteristic. has anyone ever seen a sadistic stone?
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TrueStranger
04-21-2012, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
I kindly urge you and everyone else to pause and ponder on what I said in my first post with a clear mind and then see what I was saying rather than reach half-baked conclusions.

I simply said:



This is not to say that all rape happens when someone goes out into a dangerous place at night all alone. Did I say that anywhere? No. I only chose this example as this is what people usually assume when they apportion blame. Hence the need to mention it as an example. Again, there is no need to remain hung up on it. Move on.
I do not recall saying that is what you have stated at all. It's usually ignorant individuals who "ass-ume" matters they are completely unaware of. You raised an important point, and what is the point of "moving on" when there are people with that mentality still walking on earth. Remember it's not YOU I'm talking about. So don't take it the wrong way.
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GuestFellow
04-21-2012, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Think about it this way... when a person steals from a store, it is the he who is punished by the law. They don't slap any fine or prison sentence on the shop keeper for not having any security and making it easy on the thief.

Again, it would be stupid of the shop keeper to not keep his products secure but he can't be blamed or punished for someone else's crime.
However, would it not have been a contribution? If a shop-keeper failed to protect his store, would he not be blamed, to a certain extent, for making it so easy to be a target of robbery?

Keep in mind, I'm not having a go at you. I just want to hear your response.

I've already answered that. Quite plainly...
Sorry.

Anyways, no. We can call her stupid, but we can't say it was her fault.
So if a women were to put herself in danger, for no apparent reason, she's stupid. Okay...

Originally Posted by TrueStranger
What is a well-known dangerous place?
Salaam,

I think it means that it is a dangerous area where you are likely to get attacked.

Most women get raped by someone they know.
I agree.

A well needed information.
I would call it unnecessary for this particular topic but thank you for your contribution and effort.
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CosmicPathos
04-21-2012, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
I would call it unnecessary for this particular topic but thank you for your contribution and effort.
respect. some people think about their jannati sinless-selves from a very high pedestal.
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TrueStranger
04-21-2012, 11:17 PM
There are plenty of humans with a heart harder than that of a stone.

Back to the topic, anyone who takes the time to actually place blame on a rape victim should be sent to the asylum institute.
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TrueStranger
04-21-2012, 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
Salaam,

I think it means that it is a dangerous area where you are likely to get attacked.
Waliakum Salaam,

Is there a sign that says "This is a dangerous area" "Enter on your own risk" "You might/will get raped"?


I would call it unnecessary for this particular topic but thank you for your contribution and effort.
How is it unnecessary? Do you actually think that people who blame rape victims are not lacking basic information about rape?
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CosmicPathos
04-21-2012, 11:23 PM
seems someone has too much cash to pay for the running of asylum institute for such people who think contrary to someone's beliefs. I aint paying my tax money for someone else's sensitivities.
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GuestFellow
04-21-2012, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Ugh. Why are people getting hung up on that sentence? It's just something I used to draw example to carelessness. No need to dwell on it too deeply..
Don't worry about it.


Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Anyways, define 'blame' here. When you think of that word, it implies punishment. Punishment in the case of rape is exclusive to the rapist.
Definition of blame:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...lame_1?q=blame

Definition punishment:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...1?q=punishment

I suppose not all situations where a person is blamed/responsible, will get punished.
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GuestFellow
04-21-2012, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by TrueStranger
Waliakum Salaam,

Is there a sign that says "This is a dangerous area" "Enter on your own risk" "You might/will get raped"?
:wa:

There are some areas where your likely to get attacked than others. I agree though it is difficult to define what is considered to be a dangerous area. I suppose any area can be dangerous.


How is it unnecessary? Do you actually think that people who blame rape victims are not lacking basic information about rape?
I apologise. I already knew the information you posted and was not new to me. I forgot to consider your post may educate other members, because rape is a misunderstood subject from my experience.
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BlissfullyJaded
04-21-2012, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by TrueStranger
Is there a sign that says "This is a dangerous area" "Enter on your own risk" "You might/will get raped"?
There are no areas where you live that are known to be unsafe, that your parents would warn you against going alone even in the day? If you ever land up in California then, parts of LA county would be a fairly good example of that, even downtown LA. There are no signs that warn anybody, but it's fairly obvious driving through. Just because any area can be unsafe, and some of the rapes/murders that made headlines recently were in fairly good, safe areas, and in broad daylight as well, does not mean that there aren't areas that are really, really scary and dangerous.

On the main question at hand, like the others I would not blame the victim. There's nothing good that could come out from blaming the victim, even they may have been stupid. They're already hit rock bottom at that point and their lives have changed forever...
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TrueStranger
04-22-2012, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
There are no areas where you live that are known to be unsafe, that your parents would warn you against going alone even in the day? If you ever land up in California then, parts of LA county would be a fairly good example of that, even downtown LA. There are no signs that warn anybody, but it's fairly obvious driving through. Just because any area can be unsafe, and some of the rapes/murders that made headlines recently were in fairly good, safe areas, and in broad daylight as well, does not mean that there aren't areas that are really, really scary and dangerous.

On the main question at hand, like the others I would not blame the victim. There's nothing good that could come out from blaming the victim, even they may have been stupid. They're already hit rock bottom at that point and their lives have changed forever...
I don't know what areas you are referring to or what their characteristics are, but I'm mistrustful of everyone other than my parents and siblings regardless of "where" they are.
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BlissfullyJaded
04-22-2012, 12:10 AM
Huh? That wasn't the point. The point was that there are areas that are well known to be unsafe, regardless of whether or not there are signs stating so. As for the characteristics of LA County, it has a high amount of gang related crimes.
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CosmicPathos
04-22-2012, 12:19 AM
if the statement that people are raped by ppl who are close to them is absolutely true, then most rapes should have been done by fathers or brothers or sisters or mothers.
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TrueStranger
04-22-2012, 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
Huh? That wasn't the point. The point was that there are areas that are well known to be unsafe, regardless of whether or not there are signs stating so. As for the characteristics of LA County, it has a high amount of gang related crimes.
Ha? You're looking at a fraction of the problem. Rape is not restricted to areas that has high gang related crimes, so what is the point of pointing out those areas over other areas where a woman/man could equally get raped.

There are plenty of areas that are supposedly "well-known" to be safe, and women still get raped, regardless of the location. The point is that everyone should be careful regardless of where they are.
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BlissfullyJaded
04-22-2012, 12:35 AM
I was not saying that. There aren't specific areas that I know of where there are only high instances of rapes. There are simply areas where it is unsafe, hence my example. It's pointless to be so literalistic about things, when it's fairly obvious what we are getting at. If it's not obvious, then I can't break it down anymore simply. I'm sorry.

There are plenty of areas that are supposedly "well-known" to be safe, and women still get raped, regardless of the location. The point is that everyone should be careful regardless of where they are.
I know that, which is why I said:
Just because any area can be unsafe, and some of the rapes/murders that made headlines recently were in fairly good, safe areas, and in broad daylight as well, does not mean that there aren't areas that are really, really scary and dangerous.

You clearly questioned the possibility of places being unsafe, and seemed to doubt the validity of that. I did not say that that safe areas aren't likely spots to get raped.

if the statement that people are raped by ppl who are close to them is absolutely true, then most rapes should have been done by fathers or brothers or sisters or mothers.
I think it is supposed to be as people you see on a daily basis, and come into close proximity with, not people you are just close to. Classmates, colleagues, etc who are not close to you still pose a danger because women don't suspect them, and then get attacked, sometimes because the guy thinks she wanted it because she smiled at him once and was playing hard-to-get.
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TrueStranger
04-22-2012, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
I was not saying that. There aren't specific areas that I know of where there are only high instances of rapes. There are simply areas where it is unsafe, hence my example. It's pointless to be so literalistic about things, when it's fairly obvious what we are getting at. If it's not obvious, then I can't break it down anymore simply. I'm sorry.

I know that, which is why I said:
Just because any area can be unsafe, and some of the rapes/murders that made headlines recently were in fairly good, safe areas, and in broad daylight as well, does not mean that there aren't areas that are really, really scary and dangerous.

You clearly questioned the possibility of places being unsafe, and seemed to doubt the validity of that. I did not say that that safe areas aren't likely spots to get raped.
Again, I questioned the notion of labeling a place "unsafe" because of socioeconomic stereotypes related to some areas. I know plenty of women who live in war-torn cities who never got raped, and an individual who lived in a rich suburb that felt violated. The main factor is not merely the "safety" of the area, but the predatory nature of a particular man in that vicinity. Simply.

Salaam Aliakum.
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BlissfullyJaded
04-22-2012, 12:56 AM
You don't know if the women from war-torn countries weren't raped, you only know that they haven't told you about it. Plenty of rape victims do not talk about it. (War torn countries also throw out the factor of close proximity, so is close proximity now also not true?)

The main factor is not merely the "safety" of the area, but the predatory nature of a particular man in that vicinity. Simply.
I know that.
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TrueStranger
04-22-2012, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
You don't know if the women from war-torn countries weren't raped, you only know that they haven't told you about it. Plenty of rape victims do not talk about it.


I know that.

Again, I said, "cities" implying the same country. I can not speak for every women in every war torn country, just the women I know (personally) who live in war-torn cities. Besides, you have no idea what I know or what they told me.

I highlighted "war-torn cities" to address the notion of "unsafe" areas.
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CosmicPathos
04-22-2012, 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
I think it is supposed to be as people you see on a daily basis, and come into close proximity with, not people you are just close to. Classmates, colleagues, etc who are not close to you still pose a danger because women don't suspect them, and then get attacked, sometimes because the guy thinks she wanted it because she smiled at him once and was playing hard-to-get.
I respect your level-headed views. But your statement is not inclusive of cases where a guy gets raped or sexually harassed (including biting off his private parts) by a woman (girl friend, wife, teacher, female relative). No matter how rare it might be (it acutally is not, guys just dont report it because if they do, they become outcasts and a laughing stock for not being "man enough," the artificial standard made by society), we cannot ignore it. Yes, some have called me a Muslim masculist, however I do not use that label. Labels are useless.
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dqsunday
04-22-2012, 04:23 AM
I believe it is never a woman's fault she was raped. If she had sex then was ashamed and decided to call it rape, then that would be her fault but in fact it would not be a rape, as it was consensual at the time. No woman asks to be raped, or willingly goes out to get raped. Nor is rape likely to happen only in dangerous areas, areas of high crime rates of any type or poor or whatever. Rape often occurs in the woman's own home, not just grabbed off the side of the road. It can happen this way but not as often.

There are things a woman can do to help prevent herself from being a victim (of rape, robbery or other assaults) by avoiding areas that are not safe. Not traveling alone at night, walking in isolated areas in day or night alone. Not drinking to excess and never leaving a drink unattended in a public area (ie bar), whether the drink is alcoholic or not. Don't meet guys you don't know (ie that nice guy online may seem great on text or the phone but meeting him in person can be a whole different story) in isolated areas (ie parks, parking lots etc). Better yet, bring a buddy with you or have them nearby just in case.
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Alpha Dude
04-22-2012, 05:30 AM
Originally Posted by TrueStranger
Ha? You're looking at a fraction of the problem. Rape is not restricted to areas that has high gang related crimes, so what is the point of pointing out those areas over other areas where a woman/man could equally get raped.

There are plenty of areas that are supposedly "well-known" to be safe, and women still get raped, regardless of the location. The point is that everyone should be careful regardless of where they are.
I think possibly due to the way I worded my post, you missed the point that was being made and got side tracked and hung onto the example.

I'll try to explain it better..

OP's question: Should women be blamed?

When I read this, I thought it was obvious what the OP was getting at here: The people out there who blame women for rape must think that a woman must have done something to invite it. So I thought to myself, what could they think are the possible scenarios where a woman could invite it? I came up with: if a woman were to go out into a dangerous place without taking adequate safety measures. This point of mine, was later corroborated by the OP, too. In that this is the reason people usually think a woman should be blamed. * [Please see the note below]

Hence my response of (not literal but this is what I meant): No. (EVEN IF) A woman were to be in a (HYPOTHETICAL) dangerous area (where it were to be likely that rape would occur), we can't say she is to be blamed.

Now, this dangerous area could be anywhere. I don't need to pin-point any area and I shouldn't have to as it was just an example. You could use your imagination. E.g. some dark alleyway where known rapists hang out at night and your parents tell you not to go in that place. OR a young lady at night were to have two different options, i. go through the openly lit safe main road or some dark narrow alley where pimps walk around. Option two is obviously unsafe.

In this sense, due to the very nature of the question, there was no point me coming along and saying anything about other places and circumstances where rape occur. E.g. in the home, where the rapist is known to the person etc and so forth as in that kind of scenario, it makes no sense for a woman to be blamed for it. E.g. let's say a woman is at home and someone were to break in and rape her or she had a 'best friend' who was male and he were to rape her without her doing anything to invite it (obviously relationships like that are wrong in Islam but, again, no need for anyone to get sidetracked over this, it's just an example), in those circumstances, people don't USUALLY come out and say the woman is to blame (anyone that does, is obviously mad).

No. For the thought of blaming a woman to occur, it is usually the case that people (and more specifically, Muslim men) think of women not taking adequate precautions (e.g. they go out by themselves in dangerous areas or don't cover themselves appropriate or any example under the sun where they haven't taken proper precaution), hence the example I used.

*[NOTE: In case this paragraph of mine is misunderstood: here I am not talking about what I believe but what others possibly believe and the reasons for them]

If my point isn't understood from what I've just said here, then I will just have to put it down to a communication problem as I've really minutely broken down what I meant. :)
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Rhubarb Tart
04-22-2012, 08:46 AM
This topic has been discussed already. I see no benefits in discussing it again. And it always bunch ignorant that no experience discussing such matters. Who are we to decide where our sympathy should go to? If it helps no human being "ask" to be raped whether they are muslim, non muslim, hijab/nigab or none.
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TrueStranger
04-22-2012, 09:09 AM
Alpha Dude, I completely understood your previous posts, however I was amazed at how the examples you stated are always present in almost every topic pertaining to rape. Ever wondered why the dark alley scenario is so popular. Do not take my statement personally. As you have contemplated about the inner-thoughts of men who blame rape victims, I too, am trying to de-construct the reasoning behind the dark alley and mini-skirt scenarios.

People who feel the need to understand the matter from the perspective of the rapist commonly state the examples you have brought worth, because in today’s society it fits well in the conventional wisdom of sexuality. I think most people have at one point in their life encountered people who entertain the thought that a woman could actually “invite”/ “ask for” to be raped.

I think it’s reasonable to suggest that as humans when present with two options, we will probably choose the one that appears more safe at that particular moment. There are exceptions, where someone might take a dark alley (shortcut) to get home faster for any particular reason. But I assure you that if any person (Man/woman) even considered the possibility that taking a particular route will result in getting raped, robbed, and/or killed, that they will likely change their route, unless the alternative route is not practical or worse than the current route they are taking.

Let’s even suppose that a woman has to walk down a dark alley to get home, again, I think it’s reasonable to suggest that she will likely walk fast to reach her destination, be alert, and take the necessary steps to remain as safe as humanly possible.

We can also presume that a woman has to walk down a road that is half way lit and half way dark. In such situations it's nature to remain alert. A woman could walk down a dark street, alley, road, sidewalk etc, multiple times and get home safely. And if it’s her neighborhood, then she’ll probably feel safe enough to walk home without constantly contemplating the possibility that she might get raped or killed.

After looking at few conditions that might cause a woman to walk down a dark alley we still blame women partially for walking down dark alleys. Sadly, some women will inevitably be faced with the possibility that they have to walk down a dark alley for any particular reason, but it's not in dark alley's where the majority of women get raped, or even a good portion for that matter ( Women do generally avoid dark alleys). Nevertheless, people still entertain the idea that a woman might be “inviting/asking for” rape and use the dark alley scenario as an example. What is even more shocking is the fact that adequate information has been released, which confirms that the majority of women are raped by a known assailant in their personal space, so how is it that people continue to emphasis the “dark alley” scenario when it comes to discussing rape? Why does the question “should women be blamed/held accountable (partially) for rape” being asked at this time and age?

I have yet to see questions such as those being posed to victims who are robbed, or those who were killed in dark alleys. Jeez, maybe if that guy did not walk down that alley with his wallet and that nice wristwatch, then he won’t have been robbed. Or maybe if his wallet wasn’t peeking from his back pocket, then the robber would not have followed him…..etc…

There is a good reason why these questions are continuous posed to women victims of rape, and it has to do with the mentality that women are somehow responsible for being raped. And hence the reason why the dark alley and mini-skirt scenarios are endlessly stated –exceptions are made to appear as the norm. This mentality has spread through the Muslim community like a wildfire, you mention rape and countless possibilities of how the woman could have “invited” her rapist are dished-out. Short skirts, dark alleys….etc. Anything to rationalize the sexual assault. This examples and explanations are not necessarily defending the rapists, but demonstrating the social narrative of sexuality. A woman is not guarding herself enough, if she is raped. The failure of the victim is highlighted, hence, why scenarios such as the dark alley and the mini-skirt are socially used to pose questions such as “Should Women Be Blamed?” The dark alley scenario is mentioned to enforce the notion that it’s “strangers that rape careless women in dangerous places”, and that image defines how we perceive rape in today’s society –and that is far from the truth.

I will remind you again not to take my statements as a personal attack. It’s merely a personal observation of society’s mindset towards rape.
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Futuwwa
04-22-2012, 09:12 AM
The people who blame women for going into "dangerous" areas during the night just reveal how little of a clue they have, I suspect most people who do so live in a comfortable middle-class bubble. The "dangerous" areas are almost invariably neglected low-income areas. Some women actually LIVE in those areas, due to being unable to afford to live anywhere else.
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Rhubarb Tart
04-22-2012, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by Jawharah
I think it is supposed to be as people you see on a daily basis, and come into close proximity with, not people you are just close to. Classmates, colleagues, etc who are not close to you still pose a danger because women don't suspect them, and then get attacked, sometimes because the guy thinks she wanted it because she smiled at him once and was playing hard-to-get.
No, if you look at what they mean by people close to them, they mean families and close friends of family. Frankly, classmate are not close to us. And these reports often says in their homes which rules out your theory of close proximity. If you don't believe you can look it up for yourself what they mean by "those close to them".

Anyway, whilst we sit figuring out whether victims deceive blame, just know that most victims (male and female) will most likely never get justice around the world. Funny how the blame is most frequent discussion of rape.
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GuestFellow
04-22-2012, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by sweet106
This topic has been discussed already. I see no benefits in discussing it again. And it always bunch ignorant that no experience discussing such matters. Who are we to decide where our sympathy should go to? If it helps no human being "ask" to be raped whether they are muslim, non muslim, hijab/nigab or none.
Salaam,

I would like to see this topic continue. I want to know people's attitudes towards rape and the victim. I have already learnt something that I did not know before. When I ask questions, I'm not trying to prove them wrong or engage in some sort of debate, just want members to clarify what they have said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8516519.stm

^ Also, there are women, who are victims of rape, that blame themselves. How do members respond to this article?
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Rhubarb Tart
04-22-2012, 10:05 AM
^^^

It’s common for victims to blame themselves including children.
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Periwinkle18
04-22-2012, 10:13 AM
all i can say is tht my Allah protect everyone Ameen n tht wen we should read our morning n evening duas and should read the dua wen we step out of our houses.... and i would not blame the victim
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Cabdullahi
04-22-2012, 10:28 AM
Zimbabwe women accused of raping men 'for rituals'

The women are accused of collecting the semen in condoms


Zimbabwean police believe there is a nationwide syndicate of women raping men, possibly to use their semen for use in rituals that claim to make people wealthy.

It has taken more than a year for any arrests to be made, and on Monday three women are to go on trial in the capital, Harare, over the allegations which have shocked the country.

One alleged victim, who wished to remain anonymous, gave an account on national television in July of his experience which happened after he was offered a lift by a group of three women in Harare.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

The urge to have sex was still there”

Alleged male rape victim

"One of the women threw water in my face and they injected me with something that gave me a strong sexual desire," he said.

"They stopped the car and made me have sex with each of them several times, using condoms.

"When they had finished they left me in the bush totally naked.

"Some people gathering grass helped me by calling the police, who took me to hospital to deal with the effects of this drug that I had been given, as the urge to have sex was still there."

The women due in court have been charged on 17 counts of aggravated indecent assault - as Zimbabwean law does not recognise the act of a woman raping a man.

They were detained earlier this month in the central town of Gweru, 275km (170 miles) south-west of Harare, after officers found 31 used condoms in the car that they were travelling in.
Threatening crowds

The women deny the charges, saying they are prostitutes and were too busy at the time to dispose of the condoms.
People standing by mini bus taxis in Harare, Zimbabwe Since the reports of male rapes, some men say they no longer hitch hike and prefer to use buses

After being released on bail last month, they were confronted and threatened by a crowd. They say they have been forced to remain at home since then, to avoid unwanted attention.

Police spokesperson Superintendent Andrew Phiri told the BBC that they believe that there is a syndicate operating nationwide.

"We have received reports from around the country from different towns and provinces, it's been happening on the highways," he said.

"We are yet to find out the real reason why this is happening. We have heard speculation that it's linked to rituals."

He appealed for witnesses to come forward.

"We need to hear from people who are prepared to tell," the superintendent said.

The semen is believed to be used in rituals to bring success in business, and there are suggestions that the semen is being taken outside the country for sale.

But cultural expert and sociology lecturer Claude Mararikei told the BBC that it was not clear how the semen would be used.

"It's in the area of rituals and magic, which border on secret societies," he said.

"Even researchers don't want to go into that area because you may not come out alive to publish whatever you find out."
'Wife left me'

While the first accounts of men alleging that they had been raped by women were generally met with incredulity, men who spoke to the BBC say that they are now taking the issue very seriously.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

I think there has been a lot of under-reporting because the victims will feel not man enough to talk about such issues and that will hinder them from speaking out”

Nakai Nengomasha Counsellor

"When I travel I only use buses where people are travelling in numbers now, I won't get a lift in private cars, especially if there are women inside," said a man called Witness.

"You must exercise caution, women are raping men, it's happening."

Some women in Harare, like Sibongile, worry it is giving their gender a bad image.

"I wish that people could be encouraged to work for their money in a good way. It's evil that's gone into women's heads to cause them to be that greedy, that they want easy money," she told the BBC in the city centre.

The police have not given a figure for the number of cases reported.

Nakai Nengomasha, a counsellor who is working with three men who say that they are victims of female rapists, believes that there could be more cases who have not come forward.

"I think there has been a lot of under-reporting because the victims will feel not man enough to talk about such issues and that will hinder them from speaking out," he said.

"They need to deal with denial which comes from a deeply rooted mistaken belief that men are immune to being victimised and that they should be able to fight back if they are truly a real man.

"Some have to deal with the issue of seeing the assault as a loss of manhood and feel disgusted with themselves."

That is how the man who spoke about his alleged ordeal on television feels, saying he even contemplated suicide.

"I feel violated and disappointed, because when I told my wife what happened, she left me, together with one of our three children. I'm hoping that she will come back."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15876968

Any person can get raped, at any time, at any place.
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Rhubarb Tart
04-22-2012, 10:35 AM
^^^Alhamdulillah

We all think we know how a victim looks like and how a rapist looks like. But we dont. The blame game doesnt help anyone.


All Muslims should take self defence classes and not be afraid of anyone but Allah (swt).



^^^I want to meet this woman LOL!
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Periwinkle18
04-22-2012, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by sweet106
^^^Alhamdulillah

We all think we know how a victim looks like and how a rapist looks like. But we dont. The blame game doesnt help anyone.


All Muslims should take self defence classes and not be afraid of anyone but Allah (swt).



^^^I want to meet this woman LOL!
Wow, lol
Reply

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