please help me answer the athiest!

[ILuvAllah]

An Atheist is asking me why does Allah order to kill apostates. So I showed him the video of zakir naik where he explains that it is not an islamic law to kill the apostates. then he quoted a verse from surah nisa. Verse 4:89 (Surat An-Nisa) in the Q'ran seems to say that you should kill people when they leave the faith.

So, in response to that I said, Back in the time of the Prophet (pbuh) there were some people who just pretended to be Muslims to be able to blend in with the true Muslims so that it is easier for them to plot a trap for the true Muslims to cause harm to them. So they acted like true believers when they are with the believers and as soon as they were successful in their evil mission, they left Islam. That's why it was ordered to kill such hypocrites.

then he replied, So you're saying that the word of Allah in the Q'ran must not always be followed? How can you possibly know what to follow and what not to follow? Surely he should have ordered you to kill people who were pretending to be muslims rather than kill anyone who left the faith? I thought that's what you were saying, it says in the Q'ran quite clearly that people who leave the Islamic faith must be killed, I pointed you to the passage where it says that.To disobey this is to disobey Allah, right?

So I told him to read my post again, then he replied, You said that back in time there were people who were pretending to be true Muslims, but they were not. It would make sense then if Allah ordered pretend Muslims to be killed, although this is still murder, and in my eyes wrong (I trust you agree with Allah, and think murder can be justified?), rather than to order anyone who left Islam to be killed. It seems pretty clear to me that it's saying that anyone who leaves the faith must die, and even if he isn't, that he isn't in favour of peace.


Now what do I tell him more? he just dont get it!

[جوري]

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html

[جوري]

btw on a personal note (you should read the link provided)
are we trying to water down Islam?
That's the accepted punishment.

In the Bible

The first recorded reference to apostasy from Judaism is in Deuteronomy 13:6-11, which states:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."^[4]

Furthermore that is also the accepted punishment under secularism for treason:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg

When you have an Islamic state or the non-existent Jewish state and you betray it directly then the punishment prescribed is death!
We're not going to tailor Islam to kaffir beliefs because they think that criminality should go rewarded yet victims should forgive!

:w:

[crimsontide06]

Somewhere in the Quran it says not to argue about religion with ignorant people..... Yes be knowledgeable and able to educate someone who asks you a question, but don't get into heated conversation. I don't bring up religion to my friends (All but 2 are Christians) because I know not to.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Futuwwa]

If the atheist cites 4:89, he's either ignorant or intentionally dishonest. The next verse, 4:90, makes it absolutely unambiguous that apostasy warrants death only if the apostate joins a faction at war with the Islamic community.

[Muhammad]

:sl:

I've moved the posts answering the questions from the new member joboman24 here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...s-atheist.html

To the original poster, I think first of all this highlights the need for us to be careful in saying anything about Islam which might not be true. This is very easy to fall into when getting into such discussions. We have to try and research these issues and understand the Islamic stance on them properly before explaining them to others.

Secondly, getting into such discussions is often a waste of time, as disappointing as it may sound. If the person is a sincere seeker of truth, this is often apparent and you can focus on the concept of Tawheed. If they are not willing to accept anything you say, and it's clear you are not getting anywhere, it's best to end the discussion and focus on something more beneficial.

Regarding the issue of apostasy, there are some good articles about this which you may find in the thread the sister linked to above. Ultimately, he probably won't agree that anyone under any circumstances should be killed, even though there are other laws besides Islam that apply the death penalty. Well we are following the guidance given to us by Allaah (swt), which is the best guidance and we believe there is wisdom and goodness in it regardless of whether people see it or not. This is born out of the fact that we as Muslims by definition have submitted to Allaah (swt).

[Person1001]

Im no exegist but If you read the verse before and following the one you quoted I dont think its stressing on killing apostates at all. I think it seems to be talking about the certain group of jews who were secretly planning to murder Muhammad and take control of Medina. Although the jews embraced Muhammad at the beginning as he could unite the jews of Medina and act as an arbiter to settle disputes amongst them, later on a few became jealous of Muhammad because of his power and decided to ignore the contract.

The first time this happened, Muhammad forgave them on the condition that they leave; the second time it happened he didnt excuse the punishment by death.

Someone please correct me (and quote me) if ive said anything wrong.

[ILuvAllah]

Im no exegist but If you read the verse before and following the one you quoted I dont think its stressing on killing apostates at all. I think it seems to be talking about the certain group of jews who were secretly planning to murder Muhammad and take control of Medina. Although the jews embraced Muhammad at the beginning as he could unite the jews of Medina and act as an arbiter to settle disputes amongst them, later on a few became jealous of Muhammad because of his power and decided to ignore the contract.

The first time this happened, Muhammad forgave them on the condition that they leave; the second time it happened he didnt excuse the punishment by death.

Someone please correct me (and quote me) if ive said anything wrong.

yes that is what I have heard also and this is exactly what i was trying to explain to the atheist.

[ILuvAllah]

At first I thought the athiest is really looking for answers but now it seems he just want to mock Islam. Almost every kafir comes up with this issue of killing apostates in Islam. Thats why, I thought I should answer this. I better not reply to the ignorant anymore.

[ILuvAllah]

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...-apostasy.html

I have just read some of the post from the link. so why did zakir naik say killing apostates is not the law of Islam?

[joboman24]

no I am not trying to mock islam by any means. I will let anyone and everyone respect their religion and you can do whatever you want. But is society better today because of religion? no it isn't.

[joboman24]

why are people in saudi arabia, iran, and other countries being executed for apostasy?

[joboman24]

I am in favor of peace iluvallah. But as I said the wars that take place in the middle east is based purely on religion and wouldn't likely be anywhere as near as catastrophic had it not been for religion. Now I am not saying everything in the middle east is wrong, but any war that needs to be started based on religion and not common sense and logic seems absolutely absurd to me. It is my opinion that is all I respect what everyone else says also. This is just a discussion thread.

[joboman24]

Somewhere in the Quran it says not to argue about religion with ignorant people..... Yes be knowledgeable and able to educate someone who asks you a question, but don't get into heated conversation. I don't bring up religion to my friends (All but 2 are Christians) because I know not to.

Crimson tide I am ignorant? I could make a very strong case that you are the one who is ignorant.

[joboman24]

it is wrong to call someone ignorant when I am expressing my views and you are expressing yours. Maybe we can learn from each other? But to call me ignorant is being ignorant yourself.

[ILuvAllah]

Allah criticizes the believers for disagreeing over the hypocrites. There are conflicting opinions over the reason behind revealing this Ayah. Imam Ahmad recorded that Zayd bin Thabit said that Messenger of Allah marched towards Uhud. However, some people who accompanied him went back to Al-Madinah, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah divided into two groups concerning them, one saying they should be killed and the other objecting. Allah sent down,

(Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites) The Messenger of Allah said,


(She (Al-Madinah) is Taybah, and she expels filth, just as the billow expels rust from iron.) The Two Sahihs also recorded this Hadith. Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah was revealed about some people in Makkah who said they embraced Islam, yet they gave their support to the idolators. One time, theses people went out of Makkah to fulfill some needs and said to each other, "If we meet the Companions of Muhammad, there will be no harm for us from their side.'' When the believers got news that these people went out of Makkah, some of them said, "Let us march to these cowards and kill them, because they support your enemy against you.'' However, another group from the believers said, "Glory be to Allah! Do you kill a people who say as you have said, just because they did not perform Hijrah or leave their land Is it allowed to shed their blood and confiscate their money in this case'' So they divided to two groups, while the Messenger was with them, and did not prohibit either group from reiterating their argument. Thereafter, Allah revealed,



They wish that you reject faith, as they have rejected, and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Awliya' from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah. But if they turn back, take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Awliya' nor helpers from them.) (90. Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So, if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has made no way for you against them. 91. You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to Fitnah, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you Thaqiftumuhum. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.) (surah nisa verse 89-91)

[ILuvAllah]

it is wrong to call someone ignorant when I am expressing my views and you are expressing yours. Maybe we can learn from each other? But to call me ignorant is being ignorant yourself.

oh you are that guy from youtube? haha, good to see you here :) I'm happy to know your intention is not mocking the religion. Sorry for misunderstanding.

[ILuvAllah]

Yes dr zakir and brother Futuwwa is absolutely correct. look at the verses i just posted from surah nisa. If you want I can post full the explanation.

[joboman24]

no I am not any guy from youtube just a random person who stumbled upon this site after reading the "inspire" magazine online which I found to be astonishing. You know I don't care what religion a human being believes in as long as peace can be achieved across the humanitarian globe and let people believe or not believe in what they want to believe and coexist with each other in peace is what I hope can happen across the earth and these unprovoked "terrorist" attacks on innocent civilians need to be stopped. My friend died in the Mumbai shootings in the Taj by muslim extremists. She was as innocent as can be who never harmed a human being and lived as "sin-free" a life as one could.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

no I am not any guy from youtube just a random person who stumbled upon this site after reading the "inspire" magazine online which I found to be astonishing. You know I don't care what religion a human being believes in as long as peace can be achieved across the humanitarian globe and let people believe or not believe in what they want to believe and coexist with each other in peace is what I hope can happen across the earth and these unprovoked "terrorist" attacks on innocent civilians need to be stopped. My friend died in the Mumbai shootings in the Taj by muslim extremists. She was as innocent as can be who never harmed a human being and lived as "sin-free" a life as one could.

Alhamdulilaah, we have some understanding.

I am sorry to hear about your friend, but please let's not blame islaam nor all muslims for what these extremists did or are still doing, their are good and bad in every society. I am a muslim, and condemn such acts, and so do many on board and muslims around the world.

[جوري]

. But is society better today because of religion? no it isn't.

You conjecture. You'll have to wipe out humanity of all save the ten percent atheists to prove a point only to like minded individuals..
and you'd still be displeased for the lack of homogeneity.
Do you honestly expect that we play along your faulty premise simply to appease you?
You're welcome to be a pacifist we don't attack for the fun of it and so far Muslims have always been on the defense.. might as well quit while you're ahead I doubt you'd want a laundry list exposing your faulty views when google is so easy to access!

best,

[MustafaMc]

The question raised is a fair one. Although I accept the Quran as the word of Allah (swt), I too struggle with understanding the conflicting views about the death penalty punishment for apostasy. There is also the issue about no compulsion in religion that implies religious freedom to me. I myself went 16 years without practicing Islam and even went to church some. I am glad that the window of repentance was left open for me and that my heart was led back to Islam in 2001.

[crimsontide06]

Crimson tide I am ignorant? I could make a very strong case that you are the one who is ignorant.

I didnt call you ignorant...

[ILuvAllah]

no I am not any guy from youtube just a random person who stumbled upon this site after reading the "inspire" magazine online which I found to be astonishing. You know I don't care what religion a human being believes in as long as peace can be achieved across the humanitarian globe and let people believe or not believe in what they want to believe and coexist with each other in peace is what I hope can happen across the earth and these unprovoked "terrorist" attacks on innocent civilians need to be stopped. My friend died in the Mumbai shootings in the Taj by muslim extremists. She was as innocent as can be who never harmed a human being and lived as "sin-free" a life as one could.

in Islam if you kill one innocent person, you have killed the whole humanity. Those extremists are a disgrace to Islam.

[ILuvAllah]

:sl:

I'm not sure this is exactly what Dr Zakir Nair is saying. He mentions the death penalty not being the standard punishment for any Muslim changing his faith... I think more clarification is needed before coming to the conclusion that he is saying there is no concept of capital punishment for apostates at all. Allaah (swt) knows best.

I think the verses from surah nisa makes it clear "If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold of) them and kill them wherever you Thaqiftumuhum. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.)"

[CosmicPathos]

no I am not any guy from youtube just a random person who stumbled upon this site after reading the "inspire" magazine online which I found to be astonishing. You know I don't care what religion a human being believes in as long as peace can be achieved across the humanitarian globe and let people believe or not believe in what they want to believe and coexist with each other in peace is what I hope can happen across the earth and these unprovoked "terrorist" attacks on innocent civilians need to be stopped. My friend died in the Mumbai shootings in the Taj by muslim extremists. She was as innocent as can be who never harmed a human being and lived as "sin-free" a life as one could.

I am not condoning the death of your friend (although from a rational perspective, she had to die one day, either in the hospital bed ridden with pus oozing out or here in Taj as a young healthy person), but how do you know she is sin-free? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. By God what you say astonishes me, no coherence in your claims.

Your friend died and you are so worked up. Families of Kashmiris who demand independence were and are being wiped out by Indian soldiers. You dont feel that pain.

[joboman24]

cosmic pathos you realize what you said is utter bull****. This is what people with extremist views talk like. people like you. If you really want to go into a rational perspective wouldn't you want facts and evidence before believing in a "god" based on a book. (again to the other muslims and islamists nothing against you or your religion just proving a point)? Just sayin. So me going and killing your wife and your children is considered from a rational perspective cosmic? We will see how "rational" you feel then. And if you really want to get into the kashmir situation you realize how many more terror attacks have been planted by muslim extremists compared to hindus right? That is one of the most ill facted statements about kashmir I could hear anyone make. Disgusting man.

[CosmicPathos]

cosmic pathos you realize what you said is utter bull****. This is what people with extremist views talk like. people like you. If you really want to go into a rational perspective wouldn't you want facts and evidence before believing in a "god" based on a book. (again to the other muslims and islamists nothing against you or your religion just proving a point)? Just sayin. So me going and killing your wife and your children is considered from a rational perspective cosmic? We will see how "rational" you feel then. And if you really want to get into the kashmir situation you realize how many more terror attacks have been planted by muslim extremists compared to hindus right? That is one of the most ill facted statements about kashmir I could hear anyone make. Disgusting man.

emotional argument. Why does it matter whether I believe in flying spaghetti or a monotheistic God or believe in nothing? either way, my comment regarding your friend's death stands tall and proud while not rebutted by you. I might be an atheist and still make the same previous claim I made. So no emotional arguments please especially ad hominems, personally attacking what i believe in.

So if many Muslims extremist planted bombs, it means Hindus have the right to go and kill Kashmiri civilians? You are disgusting for making that claim. Basically you believe in what you are condemning us for. Hypocrisy, sir?

[joboman24]

you can rationalize it any way you want but you clearly show extremism tendencies. How are you standing tall and proud over an innocent death? If Hindus come and kill your family are you still going to be standing "tall and proud"? I didn't think so. You would want to go to the ends of the earth to find these scums of the earth and chop their head off. If many muslim extremists planted bombs...then why cannot I make a case for Hindu extremists planting bombs? You understand? I am not condemning islam. I am condemning extremism and a whole lot of that. There is also no emotional argument to what I said. It is logic and shows the irrationality of extremists and people who think the way you think. It is sad.

[Aprender]

If many muslim extremists planted bombs...then why cannot I make a case for Hindu extremists planting bombs? You understand? I am not condemning islam.

Then remove the word muslim from your description of extremists if you are not condemning Islam.

There is also no emotional argument to what I said. It is logic and shows the irrationality of extremists and people who think the way you think. It is sad.

You have the right idea here but your diction and premise is contradictory. It appears that you can differentiate between what a religion teaches and the transgressions and deviations of people who act like they follow it but from some of your other posts, reading between the lines, I can't tell if you really believe what you write or if you want to have your cake and eat it too. Hmm....

[joboman24]

I will say this for now. In text the quran might be the best religious book out there to live life hypothetically. I haven't read more than a couple pages of any of the religious book so it is just hypothetical. Well if it makes sense on how to lead a good life with good morals then go for it. But don't try to tell me that one religion is better or right when not one human being on this earth knows for sure (100%) if there is a god. And that is a fact.

[joboman24]

Then remove the word muslim from your description of extremists if you are not condemning Islam.



You have the right idea here but your diction and premise is contradictory. It appears that you can differentiate between what a religion teaches and the transgressions and deviations of people who act like they follow it but from some of your other posts, reading between the lines, I can't tell if you really believe what you write or if you want to have your cake and eat it too. Hmm....

I am not condemning islam or any religion. I have a different opinion that's all. I respect your opinion on religion although I completely disagree with it as I would hope you respect my point of view whilst completely disagreeing with me. I am not going to be a bad soul or human being if I don't believe in allah or any other god but religion says otherwise that's why it bothers me. I may be putting more of an emphasis on allah because I am in a muslim forum to get my point across just like I would use krishna rama for a hindu forum.

[Muhammad]

:sl: and Greetings,

This thread is closed as we have clearly gone off-topic (many posts have been deleted). Regarding the original issue of apostasy - please refer to other threads and sources to get a better understanding of that Insha'Allaah.

Joboman - please raise your questions in the thread made for you in Comparative Religion (linked to above). You will find many people are willing to answer provided you allow them to do so.

Thread closed.