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joboman24
04-29-2012, 08:28 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/us-pastor-burns-korans-urge-iran-clergyman-release-143247851.html
W
hat do you people think about this? In both ends his burning and the reason for his burning. He is burning the quran in protest to Nadharkhani in Iran being condemned to death based on Islamic sharia law for converting from islam to christianity. Justified?
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aadil77
04-30-2012, 10:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by joboman24
http://news.yahoo.com/us-pastor-burns-korans-urge-iran-clergyman-release-143247851.html
W
hat do you people think about this? In both ends his burning and the reason for his burning. He is burning the quran in protest to Nadharkhani in Iran being condemned to death based on Islamic sharia law for converting from islam to christianity. Justified?
What do you think?

Should muslims burn the Bible because of George Bush's 'crusades' in afghanistan and iraq?
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~ Sabr ~
04-30-2012, 10:44 AM
Peace be with you brother

Violence will get us humanity nowhere.
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True-blue
04-30-2012, 10:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by joboman24
What do you people think about this? In both ends his burning and the reason for his burning. He is burning the quran in protest to Nadharkhani in Iran being condemned to death based on Islamic sharia law for converting from islam to christianity. Justified?
Of course no! That's a crazy idea. Better take that Apostate to USA.
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aamirsaab
04-30-2012, 11:24 AM
He had to buy those Korans in the first place right? So somehwere, some muslim dude/dudetter got dat paypuh. Also, burning a Koran isn't really offensive....in any way shape or form, especially seeing as it's one of the only halal means of disposing anything with the word of God on it (the other is burial).

I hereby dub this pastor the award of ultimate failure in the universe!
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GodIsAll
04-30-2012, 12:30 PM
At least he's not executing ex-Christians that convert to Islam.
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YusufNoor
04-30-2012, 01:32 PM
an idiot did something stupid. we'd be pretty busy if we took notice every time that happened!
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GuestFellow
05-02-2012, 11:06 AM
What a nut.
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Futuwwa
05-02-2012, 12:21 PM
Who gave this man attention again? Shame on the media for feeding trolls.
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Hulk
05-02-2012, 01:02 PM
There is no compulsion in religion, if the guy wants to leave Islam then let him. No where in the Quran does it tell you to kill anyone who leaves Islam. The Quran even talks about people who have believed, disbelieved, believed, and then disbelieved. Now if we are supposed to kill anyone who disbelieves, how would they be able to do what the Quran describes them doing?

Some people here disagree with me but that is fine they can have the opinion they wish to abide by.

And the pastor, all I can say is I hope he "wakes up" some day.
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Muhammad
05-02-2012, 02:36 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by GodIsAll
At least he's not executing ex-Christians that convert to Islam.
Are you trying to say something about Islamic law?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
There is no compulsion in religion, if the guy wants to leave Islam then let him. No where in the Quran does it tell you to kill anyone who leaves Islam. The Quran even talks about people who have believed, disbelieved, believed, and then disbelieved. Now if we are supposed to kill anyone who disbelieves, how would they be able to do what the Quran describes them doing?
There is a clear hadeeth in Sahih Bukhari that Ibn Abbas reported that Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: "Whoever changes his religion ( i.e. from islam to another belief) kill him". This is a well known punishment in Islam to the extent that some scholars have quoted a consensus among Muslim scholars on this judgement. Please be careful akhee of using Qur'anic verses in this way without having knowledge of the issue, because as we know, there is a methodology of using Islamic evidences to arrive at a conclusion. There is no compulsion to accept Islam, but it is very a serious thing to know the religion of Truth and then abandon it.

Bear in mind that an apostate is given the opportunity to repent and if he does so, at least with some types of apostasy, the person is not to be killed. So in this way a person might apostasise repeatedly. Another possibility is that a person may disbelieve in their heart while professing to believe with their tongue. and Allaah (swt) knows best.
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Scimitar
05-02-2012, 03:34 PM
Let them burn Qurans... even if they burnt all the Qurans in the world, we can reproduce them letter for letter, for we have the word of Allah, memorized with our hafiz... approx 10 million at least in the world.

I doubt anyone has memorized any other book from cover to cover like us Muslims...

I was on vigilant citizen forum last night, and some Christians were calling our prophet pbuh all sorts of horrible names. I posed that I found it weird how Christians would slander the prophet Muhammad pbuh in the worst ways possible but Muslims would never do that to Jesus pbuh...

...In Gods vision, who is the more favourable group?

That shut them all up. I got nothing against Christians and believe that true Christians (who are rare these days) and Muslims are like oranges and tangerines, different - but each delicious in their own way..... (thank you J-Dub for the example)

...of course, bad apples also exist in each faith. But these are harldy examples by which to judge a religion by.

The pastor should have known better. Som of his own congregation must have squirmed when they found out that the man they respect as a spiritual leader, went and burn a monotehistic religions holy book. This will no doubt work in the favour of Muslims, as in the past - the burning of the Quran has only served to pique the curiosity of non Muslims, to find out what is inside the book...

...this is how some non Muslims, find Islam, and sooner or later, some of those take shahadah.

Let them burn the Qurans.

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I hereby dub this pastor the award of ultimate failure in the universe!
+1

Scimi
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GodIsAll
05-02-2012, 04:03 PM
Well said on all accounts...

format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
There is no compulsion in religion, if the guy wants to leave Islam then let him. No where in the Quran does it tell you to kill anyone who leaves Islam. The Quran even talks about people who have believed, disbelieved, believed, and then disbelieved. Now if we are supposed to kill anyone who disbelieves, how would they be able to do what the Quran describes them doing?

Some people here disagree with me but that is fine they can have the opinion they wish to abide by.

And the pastor, all I can say is I hope he "wakes up" some day.
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ILuvAllah
05-02-2012, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings,

Are you trying to say something about Islamic law?

There is a clear hadeeth in Sahih Bukhari that Ibn Abbas reported that Allah's Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said: "Whoever changes his religion ( i.e. from islam to another belief) kill him". This is a well known punishment in Islam to the extent that some scholars have quoted a consensus among Muslim scholars on this judgement. Please be careful akhee of using Qur'anic verses in this way without having knowledge of the issue, because as we know, there is a methodology of using Islamic evidences to arrive at a conclusion. There is no compulsion to accept Islam, but it is very a serious thing to know the religion of Truth and then abandon it.

One simple explanation that comes to mind for the verse you quoted is that an apostate is given the opportunity to repent and if he does so, at least with some types of apostasy, the person is not to be killed. So in this way a person can apostasise repeatedly, and Allaah (swt) knows best.
Is there anyone in this forum who has studied the science of hadith? I'm sure there is a explanation behind it otherwise zakir naik wouldnt have said Death penalty for a Muslim who leaves Islam is not an Islamic Law. Also in surah nisa there is an explanation.
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Who Am I?
05-02-2012, 04:24 PM
:sl:

I recently saw a history book for children that explained the difference between Christians and Muslims in this way:

"Christians are followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Muslims are followers of the teachings of the prophet Muhammad (pbuh)".

I thought to myself: "They're the same thing....Muslims also follow the teachings of Jesus.."
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czgibson
05-02-2012, 06:35 PM
Greetings,

In general, burning books is not a good idea.

Peace
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Endymion
05-02-2012, 06:50 PM
Poor soul.All i need is a screw driver to fix him.
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Muhammad
05-02-2012, 07:02 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Iluv♥Allah
Is there anyone in this forum who has studied the science of hadith? I'm sure there is a explanation behind it otherwise zakir naik wouldnt have said Death penalty for a Muslim who leaves Islam is not an Islamic Law. Also in surah nisa there is an explanation.
Check what the scholars have said in this regard, visit trustworthy fatwa sites and Insha'Allaah it should become clearer.
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GuestFellow
05-02-2012, 10:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iluv♥Allah
Is there anyone in this forum who has studied the science of hadith? I'm sure there is a explanation behind it otherwise zakir naik wouldnt have said Death penalty for a Muslim who leaves Islam is not an Islamic Law. Also in surah nisa there is an explanation.
Salaam,

Some scholars argue that Muslims that leave Islam are executed. Others argue that Muslims that leave Islam and promote it/commit treason, will then be executed. I'm not sure how these principles are applied in a real life case. I'm certain there are books on this issue.

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

In general, burning books is not a good idea.

Peace
Hi,

Welcome back. I used to be known as Guestfellow. Glad to see your doing well.
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LauraS
05-02-2012, 10:26 PM
A lot of these posts focus on the man burning the Koran, but ignore the poor man who is facing execution for converting to Christianity. I don't have the knowledge of Islamic law to be able to debate about whether the killing was lawful, but morally it's wrong. Muslims convert to Christianity, Christians convert to Islam. Both basically worship the same God, shouldn't he be given the chance to go back to Islam like he may decide to later in life?

Burning the Koran will achieve nothing, he should raise awareness of the issue in a more dignified way.
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aadil77
05-03-2012, 10:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
A lot of these posts focus on the man burning the Koran, but ignore the poor man who is facing execution for converting to Christianity. I don't have the knowledge of Islamic law to be able to debate about whether the killing was lawful, but morally it's wrong. Muslims convert to Christianity, Christians convert to Islam. Both basically worship the same God, shouldn't he be given the chance to go back to Islam like he may decide to later in life?
Its ironic because biblical law also dictates execuation for apostacy. I think he should be left alone and given another chance unless his conversion had malintent to it.
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Muhammad
05-03-2012, 02:02 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
A lot of these posts focus on the man burning the Koran, but ignore the poor man who is facing execution for converting to Christianity. I don't have the knowledge of Islamic law to be able to debate about whether the killing was lawful, but morally it's wrong.
You are basing this upon your own cultural or religious beliefs as a standard for what is moral and immoral, but it is not an objective standard which one can assert should be binding upon everyone. Muslims believe that Islam is the ultimate standard of morality to follow and as such we have no problem in accepting the ruling for apostates in Islamic Law. (I don't know the details behind the particular story of the man in Iran, so please note that this is a general discussion on Islam and apostasy).

The following article sheds more light on the issue and might help us to better understand:

Apostasy and Islam: The Current Hype
Jamaal Zarabozo

Much has been said in recent months concerning the law of apostasy in Islam. In particular, the recent case in Afghanistan has highlighted, once again, to many in the Western world that the Muslim world is neither civilized nor respective of human rights. Repeatedly one hears cries that the Muslim countries must change in order to join “the family of civilized countries” in today’s world. In fact, the Islamic law of apostasy seems to be one of the most obvious cases where a “fundamental” human right is violated by Islamic law, bringing up the question of whether Islamic law is even suitable for modern times or must Muslims be compelled to modify and change their religion and laws. [1]

Indeed, Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed by the vast majority of today’s countries, reads: “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”

On the other hand, Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said,

لا يَحِلُّ دَمُ امْرِئٍ مُسْلِمٍ إِلاَّ بِإِحْدَى ثَلاَثٍ الثَّيِّبُ الزَّانِي وَالنَّفْسُ بِالنَّفْسِ والتَارِكُ لِدِيْنِهِ المُفَارِقُ لِلْجَمَاعَةِ

“It is not legal [to spill] the blood of a Muslim except in one of three cases: the fornicator who has previously experienced legal sexual intercourse (i.e. with one’s husband, wife, etc.), a life for a life and one who forsakes his religion and separates from the community.” (Recorded by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is also reported to have said,

مَنْ بَدَّلَ دِينَهُ فَاقْتُلُوهُ

“Whoever changes his religion is to be killed.”[2] (Recorded by al-Bukhari and others.)

These texts from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have led the vast majority of Muslim scholars to conclude that the punishment for apostasy from Islam in Islamic Law is death. It is true that there are some, especially contemporary writers, who opt for very different conclusions and argue that such a death penalty is a misunderstanding of Islamic Law. This is not the proper place to enter into such a debate. Instead, this author shall presume that the opinion that has been held by the vast majority of the scholars is the correct opinion. This entire discussion, therefore, shall be in the light of that conclusion. If the harsher punishment can be “defended” from the current onslaught, any lesser punishments will, obviously, be even more so defensible.

This opinion held by the vast majority of Muslim scholars of the past puts the contemporary Muslim into quite a quandary—especially given a “modern” view of religion that believes that religion must be changed if it does not meet the rational requirements of the times. However, before one immediately jumps to resolve an issue of this nature, one has to realize that there are a number of unstated premises that are in the background.

Furthermore, if one is being asked to give up the dictates of his faith, there should be rather strong compelling evidence demonstrating that his faith (or some aspect of it) is simply unacceptable. In other words, nobody should be asked to give up something that they believe in unless there truly is strong proof that what he believes in must be wrong or unacceptable. Otherwise, on what basis should an individual—any individual, be he Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, whatever—compromise on something that he believes is demanded by or beloved to his very own creator and lord?

At this point, it is necessary to inject a further comment, because issues of this nature are often the result of different worldviews and perceptions. Many in the West have the understanding that “faith” means to believe in something that one cannot prove. This is not the approach of Islam.[3] In general, Muslims hold that there are very strong, rational reasons for them to believe in their religion. It is not simply a matter of “blind faith.” Instead—and this is obviously not the proper place to go into this in detail—Muslims think, for example, that the excellence of the Quran, its unquestionable historical authenticity, and the numerous miracles[4] related to it all point to this book being a true revelation from God. Thus, before a Muslim is asked to override something found in his religion, there had better be very strong evidence that something is mistaken or unacceptable in the religion of Islam. Furthermore, from a Muslim’s perspective, the burden of proof in such a case would be upon the one who claims that there is something superior or more suitable than what is found in Islamic law. (It must be stressed that this seems to be an issue that many in the West simply cannot comprehend because they think that faith is just a matter of blind faith and they do not realize that Muslims have rational reasons for believing in Islam and Islamic Law.)

The question that the Muslim must pose, therefore, is the following: Do those who promote “human rights” or “civilization/modernity” have such evidence and strong proofs? Without jumping too much ahead, it would seem that they do not.[5] In fact, one can question, based on their own statements about civilization, whether those who call for “civilization” are actually civilized themselves. What are the criteria by which a country is to be judged to be among “the family of civilized nations” today? Is it, for example, the acceptance and respect for those vaunted “human rights”? This would seem to be the underlying premise of many statements heard in the media today. If that is the case, then the list of human rights need to be studied in further detail...


[...]

Conclusion

It is beyond the scope of this article to touch upon all of the relevant points related to the question of the law of apostasy in Islam[25] in the light of contemporary thought and attitudes. However, the above has been sufficient to demonstrate that there does not seem to be any logical, historical or philosophical argument that proves that Islam’s law of apostasy is unacceptable or irrational, especially when applied within the strict confines of the principles of Islamic Law.

The belief in the Islamic law of apostasy stems from the Islamic belief in God, the Creator. It stems from the belief that God has the right to lay down laws for His creatures and that, in fact, He is the best in laying down such laws. This should be considered logical by anyone who believes in God. Even though it can be considered logical, this argument is repugnant to many of the West, even those who believe in God. However, this fact has more to do with the West’s unique history than with the logic of the argument being made. The West experienced a period in which many were killed in the name of God and they also experienced a period in which they realized that their scriptures are not truly from God, due to their manifest contradiction with science. Both of these facts led the West to move away from “God’s law” to man-made laws. One, though, cannot derive “universal principles” from the experience of this small portion of human beings. In fact, those phenomena have no relevance whatsoever to Islam.

Thus, there is no logical reason for a Muslim not to trust in Islam’s scripture, the Quran, as being a true revelation from God.

Hence, there is no reason for a Muslim to abandon God’s law.

Similarly, there is no reason for a Muslim to stop believing in the fact that the best lawgiver is God Himself.

Therefore, there is no logical reason for a Muslim to stop believing in the Islamic law of apostasy as explained by the Prophet of God, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
Full article: http://www.zeriislam.com/artikulli.php?id=921


format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Muslims convert to Christianity, Christians convert to Islam. Both basically worship the same God, shouldn't he be given the chance to go back to Islam like he may decide to later in life?
Yes, generally an apostate is given the opportunity to have his doubts cleared and to repent - he is not killed immediately.


Lastly, should anyone wish to continue the discussion on apostasy, they can do so in a separate thread in the Clarifications of Islam section.


Regards.
Reply

Abz2000
05-03-2012, 03:38 PM
In the United States, before the Civil War, deserters from the Army were flogged; while, after 1861, tattoos or branding were also adopted. The maximum U.S. penalty for desertion in wartime remains death,

AWOL/UA may be punished with non-judicial punishment (NJP) and may punished by Court Martial under Article 86 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice for repeat or more severe offenses.

"306 British and Commonwealth soldiers [were] executed for...desertion during World War I," records the Shot at Dawn Memorial. "During the period between August 1914 and March 1920 more than 20,000 servicemen were convicted by courts-martial of offences which carried the death sentence. 3,000 of those men were ordered to be put to death and of those just over 10% were executed...."

Even in the Prophet pbuh's time and in the times of the rightly guided caliphs, the punishment for apostasy was not applied on a one size fits all basis, it differed according to circumstances.
there are records of people who apostasized and were left alone with no execution warrants issued against them, and of others who apostasized and later returned to Islam (which many did at the time of Hijrah due to the extrreme pressure applied on them by their families).
one example of the former is the previous husband of umm habiba, the daughter of Abu Sufyan,
and one of the latter is Tulayha al Asdi, who renegaded with his whole tribe and even claimed to be a prophet!
he later repented and became Muslim,
he then went on to fight battles against the enemies of Islam and encouraged his people to fight bravely, he was killed fighting for Islam, and who knows if Allah may forgive him and grant him martyrdom.

this topic is usually approached from both extremes of one or the other (either by apologists/kuffar appeasers - or by the western lamestream media - despite it being a delicate issue to be judged according to circumstances.

and Allah knows best.

"O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."
Hadithi Qudsi
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Person1001
05-03-2012, 05:15 PM
The pastor has some issues :hmm:
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Pygoscelis
05-03-2012, 10:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

In general, burning books is not a good idea.

Peace
^ This.
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IslamicRevival
05-04-2012, 01:18 AM
Think its about time this Pastor was baked! There are far better ways to make your voice heard then burning religious books but it seems as though thi individual is just an insignificant, attention seeking bufoon who just wants his five minutes of fame.
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Perseveranze
05-04-2012, 01:50 AM
Didn't Iran also say the guy committed rape/murder (some other charges)?
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Futuwwa
05-04-2012, 06:25 AM
I'm not convinced apostasy is a capital offence either.
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Muhammad
05-04-2012, 05:24 PM
The vast majority of scholars seem to think otherwise...
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Futuwwa
05-04-2012, 07:33 PM
If I'd blindly go by what supposedly is the opinion of the majority of scholars, I'd still be a Christian. :p
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GuestFellow
05-04-2012, 10:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
I'm not convinced apostasy is a capital offence either.
Salaam,

Why?
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Muhammad
05-24-2012, 12:00 PM
An addition:


Question ID
76706

Answered by
AMJA Fatwa Committee
Date Answered
2008-10-26


Question
Assalaam alaikum,

A question was posed about what happens to a Muslim who leaves Islam, either to another religion or to no specific religion. If you please, could you provide details on what would happen during the Prophet's (pbuh) or the Caliphs' (ra) time, versus what would be the procedure now?

Jazak Allah khair, wa `alaikum assalaam.




Answer
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful,

All praise is due to Allah, and may peace and blessing be upon the Messenger of Allah, upon his household, his companions and true followers. To proceed:

The majority of the People of Knowledge hold that the apostate should be asked to repent, that his misconceptions should be clarified and that the proof should be presented to him without pressure. For, certainly, it is more beloved to Allah that he should remain alive through repentance than that he should die on apostasy. Should he refuse, he would deserve to be executed by the hadd, or specific, prescribed criminal punishment, according to the saying of the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), "Whoever exchanges his religion, execute him." Abu Hanifah dissented concerning [the case of] a woman who apostatizes; his stance is that she should be held in confinement indefinitely until she returns [to Islam].

As is well-known, this ruling regarding the apostate rests with the prevailing authority; there is no place for the common person or the quasi-common person [anyone less than a full-fledged scholar]. Such is the status of the hudud (pl: hadd) punishments in general; they are wholly dependant on a powerful, authoritative Islamic state. It is the state that presents the proof, clarifies the misconceptions and undertakes all the proper investigative procedures, without prejudice or injustice. If it sees that the source of the apostate's problem is a misconception to which he remains attached, the state will wait until its effects are completely gone, no matter how long that takes, so that nothing remains thereafter but mere stubbornness, arrogance and defiance. In the establishment of this ruling, there is protection for the sanctity of religions not to be toyed with, lest those who are manipulative and desire-driven do not obtain the means to advance their personally-motivated ambitions and objectives. Furthermore, in that which Allah has ordained, He has the perfect proof and argument, as well as the Ultimate Wisdom. We ask Allah to grant guidance to all.

And Allah Almighty is the Most High, and He knows best.






https://www.amjaonline.org/declarati...mittee-fatwas/
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Said_Soussi
05-24-2012, 12:00 PM
The dog will soon feel for himself what it is to burn, incha'Allah !!
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