Authority of the Hadeeth

['Abd-al Latif]

I'm a bit heretical in that I reject the Hadith and only follow the Qu'ran.

But the Qur'an tells you to follow the hadeeth. It's a part of belief.

"He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." [Quran 4:80]

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger..." [Quran 4:59]

"...And let those who oppose the Messenger's commandment beware, lest some trial or affliction befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.”" [Quran 24:63]

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission." [Quran 4:65]

There are more verses like these that command Muslims to obey hadeeth.

[Futuwwa]

But the Qur'an tells you to follow the hadeeth. It's a part of belief.

"He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." [Quran 4:80]

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger..." [Quran 4:59]

"...And let those who oppose the Messenger's commandment beware, lest some trial or affliction befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.”" [Quran 24:63]

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission." [Quran 4:65]

There are more verses like these that command Muslims to obey hadeeth.

None of those verses command us to follow the Hadiths. They command us to obey Muhammed (pbuh). If he doesn't believe the hadiths accurately account for what Muhammed did or commanded, he wouldn't be deliberately disobedient.

[Insaanah]

Welcome, GodisOne

I hope you will soon realise that the two important sources for our religion are the Qur'an and sunnah (the sunnah is recorded in the hadeeth), which go together, hand in hand, both to be followed, none in isolation of the other.

None of those verses command us to follow the Hadiths. They command us to obey Muhammed (pbuh). If he doesn't believe the hadiths accurately account for what Muhammed did or commanded, he wouldn't be deliberately disobedient.

The hadeeth are the most accurate records with chains of transmission, and classified so we know which is weak etc. No other literature of that period has been transmitted and recorded so accurately with full "audit trail". We cannot reject the hadeeth wholesale, once we know a hadeeth is authentic.

How would you obey him :saws: without the ahadeeth? Which more accurate record than the hadeeth is there that records his sayings and orders?

[GodIsOne]

I hope you will soon realise that the two important sources for our religion are the Qur'an and sunnah (the sunnah is recorded in the hadeeth), which go together, hand in hand, both to be followed, none in isolation of the other.

There are a number of muslims that reject the Hadith.

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['Abd-al Latif]

None of those verses command us to follow the Hadiths. They command us to obey Muhammed (pbuh). If he doesn't believe the hadiths accurately account for what Muhammed did or commanded, he wouldn't be deliberately disobedient.

Then what in the world do you classify as hadeeth? Hadeeth is the sayings, actions and approvals of the Messenger. The hadeeth that we know today are the recorded forms of his actions, sayings and approvals. Believing in the Messenger :saws1: and all what he came with is a part of belief, how can one say the shahaadah (i.e. There is none to be worshipped except Allah and Muhammed :saws1: is His messenger) and claim to believe in the Messenger but doesn't believe in anything that he said or did? How can you make a separation between the person and his actions? Did Allah send a person carrying His message to someone who isn't fit to be followed?

It's like I tell you that your father was the best businessman that ever lived and you need to follow his example if you want a successful career. Your father dies one day so you write everything in a book to preserve his success, for yourself and for future generations to be as successful. Is there any difference between seeing your father's success in real life and writing a book about it?

Then what is the difference between obeying the Messenger's example and everything he came with while he was alive and calling the recorded forms of his life hadeeth after he passes away? Allah is far removed from sending a man whose character, conduct and actions we cannot take from. The Qur'an was revealed to him :saws1: so there must be something about him that Allah saw that no one else in the creation possessed: the best and the most noblest of character. He was the best of all the prophets and Messengers, he is the best of creation and the most beloved to Allah from all of His creation. Allah sent the best message, the Qur'an, to the best of creation because only the best of creation possesses all those qualities that the rest of creation must take as an example and obey in all matters if they hope to possess any good. To disbelieve in this is disbelief in the Qur'an so your argument is flawed and is the opposite to what the sahaba and righteous scholars have understood hadeeth to be.

From the understanding of the sahaba, these verses are precisely telling us to follow hadeeth and from this, one can see that rejecting hadeeth is disbelief in Islam.

[GodIsOne]

Then what in the world do you classify as hadeeth? Hadeeth is the sayings, actions and approvals of the Messenger. The hadeeth that we know today are the recorded forms of his actions, sayings and approvals. Believing in the Messenger :saws1: and all what he came with is a part of belief, how can one say the shahaadah (i.e. There is none to be worshipped except Allah and Muhammed :saws1: is His messenger) and claim to believe in the Messenger but doesn't believe in anything that he said or did? How can you make a separation between the person and his actions? Did Allah send a person carrying His message to someone who isn't fit to be followed?

It's like I tell you that your father was the best businessman that ever lived and you need to follow his example if you want a successful career. Your father dies one day so you write everything in a book to preserve his success, for yourself and for future generations to be as successful. Is there any difference between seeing your father's success in real life and writing a book about it?

Then what is the difference between obeying the Messenger's example and everything he came with while he was alive and calling the recorded forms of his life hadeeth after he passes away? Allah is far removed from sending a man whose character, conduct and actions we cannot take from. The Qur'an was revealed to him :saws1: so there must be something about him that Allah saw that no one else in the creation possessed: the best and the most noblest of character. He was the best of all the prophets and Messengers, he is the best of creation and the most beloved to Allah from all of His creation. Allah sent the best message, the Qur'an, to the best of creation because only the best of creation possesses all those qualities that the rest of creation must take as an example and obey in all matters if they hope to possess any good. To disbelieve in this is disbelief in the Qur'an so your argument is flawed and is the opposite to what the sahaba and righteous scholars have understood hadeeth to be.

From the understanding of the sahaba, these verses are precisely telling us to follow hadeeth and from this one can see that rejecting hadeeth is disbelief in Islam.

[3:19] Allah bears witness that there is no God but He — and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge — Maintainer of justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

[GodIsOne]

[3:19] Allah bears witness that there is no God but He — and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge — Maintainer of justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

Following the Hadith and trying to imitate Muhammed is idolatry. There I said it.

Saying that one cannot attain full knowledge of Allah through the Qu'ran alone is to deny that that it is the final revelation of Allah.

['Abd-al Latif]

[3:19] Allah bears witness that there is no God but He — and also do the angels and those possessed of knowledge — Maintainer of justice; there is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise.

And what is this verse supposed to prove?

You're argument still holds no weight because Allah says in another verse: "He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them" (Quran 4:80)

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Following the Hadith and trying to imitate Muhammed is idolatry. There I said it.

Saying that one cannot attain full knowledge of Allah through the Qu'ran alone is to deny that that it is the final revelation of Allah.

"He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." [Quran 4:80]

Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."[ Al Qur'aan 3:31]

The prophet Sallaahu Alaayhi wa salam is commanded to say 'If you (really) love Allah then follow me'..

Worshipping Muhammad (P) is idoltry, but we are not worshipping him, and Allaah SWT has told us in the Qur'aan, that he is a perfect example, perfect in what way? Did the companions worship him Sallaahu 'Alaayhi wa salam, by following him? his teachings? Those same companions have told us in narrations how they saw/observe the prophet (SAW) doing so and so task in daily life.

Akhi, how do you perform salaah? or how do you perform wudhu/ablution? etc etc..

['Abd-al Latif]

Following the Hadith and trying to imitate Muhammed is idolatry. There I said it.

Saying that one cannot attain full knowledge of Allah through the Qu'ran alone is to deny that that it is the final revelation of Allah.

Bro, the highest authority is Allah. Then from the creation it is His Messenger. We do not worship the Messenger, bow down to him or exaggerate his praise because Muhammad :saws1: himself has forbidden this. During the lifetime of the Messenger a man asked to bow to him but Muhammad :saws1: forbade him. Another exaggerated his praise, the Messenger forbade him and yet another time a man equalled his praise to Allah and the Messenger got so angry that his faced turned red and he said in his own words "call me the slave of Allah" and strictly forbade anyone from ever doing that. Idolatry is if we treated Muhammed as a God besides Allah, which is not the case.

Saying that one can gain full knowledge of Allah through the Quran alone is a mistake and ignorance, not a denial of his revelation. The hadeeth are the explanation of Qur'an and detail the laws that were revealed. This is what Qur'an says, the Messenger has said, his companions and all the righteous scholars after them.

[Scimitar]

Saying that one cannot attain full knowledge of Allah through the Qu'ran alone is to deny that that it is the final revelation of Allah.

No, totally wrong.The Quran wasn't revealed to let you attain full knowledge of Allah. To say so is almost borderline shirk akhi.

Before I answer this question, let's note that if the Qur'an had been revealed all at once, people would ask: "Why was it sent down all at once and not in stages?" The ultimate answer to such questions lies with God, the All-Wise and All-Knowing. Our decisions are based on a very limited viewpoint, as we are limited creatures. The Divine Decree, on the other hand, considers everything—our moral and spiritual well-being, worldly happiness, future and present—and weaves the whole into a single pattern that is coherent with Grace and Wisdom. Thus, the benefit we derive from the Divine commandments is immeasurable, and the blessing that flows from obeying them is beyond our imagination. And so it is with the method that God chose to reveal the Qur'an.The Revelation began when it was time for humanity to reach maturity. The Prophet's mission and that of his community was to become the most complete, progressive, and dynamic exemplars for humanity, and to achieve such a level of advancement that they would be the masters and guides for all subsequent people. But these reformers first had to be reformed. Their qualities and characters had been conditioned by the surrounding non-Islamic environment in which their people had been living for centuries. Islam was to turn their good qualities into qualities of unsurpassed excellence, and to purge their bad qualities and habits in such a way that they would never reappear.
If the Qur'an had been revealed all at once, how would they have reacted to its prohibitions and commandments? Certainly, they would have been unable to understand, let alone accept and apply, them in the ideal manner. This lack of gradualism would have been self-defeating, as proven by history: Wherever Islam was taken, it spread gradually but steadily, and so became firmly established.
We see people all around us who cannot free themselves from their bad habits and addictions. If you confined such people, even if you convinced them to abandon their habits for their own benefit, they would not be happy with you. On the contrary, they would feel angry, bored, and irritated. They would complain and try to escape from your program of reform, so that they could revert to their habits as soon as possible. All the arguments and documented evidence of specialists and experts would not persuade them to change. Even those who were cured occasionally suffer a relapse. Indeed, some of those who campaign against such harmful habits as smoking and consuming alcohol still indulge in them!
Remember that the Qur'an came to change not one or two habits; it came to change everything: ways of living and dying, marrying, buying and selling, settling disputes, and how to perceive one's relation with the Creator, among others. Given the scope of the change envisioned, we can begin to grasp why it was revealed in stages.
The gradual revelation of the Qur'an prepared the people to accept and then live the virtues, excellent manners, and lofty aspirations it demanded. That so much was achieved in only 23 years is a miracle. As Said Nursi said: "I wonder if the scholars of today went to the Arabian peninsula, could they accomplish in 100 years even 1 percent of what the Prophet accomplished in 1 year?" Current campaigns to eradicate such a peripheral vice as smoking employ famous scholars, individuals, institutions, and the whole network of mass media—yet they still result in overall failure. If 20 fewer people die on the road per year after a campaign against alcohol, it is considered a great success. What the Prophet accomplished, at God's bidding, over 23 years far surpasses what all of humanity has managed to achieve since that time.
The Qur'an was revealed in stages so that its audience could understand, internalize, and apply its prohibitions, commands, and reforms. Revelation came when the need for guidance arose, without discouraging or grinding down morale: warning and condemnation preceded prohibition, appeal and exhortation preceded command. For instance, alcohol and other intoxicating drinks were prohibited in three or four stages; female infanticide in two stages; uniting warring tribes and building up a close-knit society based on brotherhood, thus raising the collective consciousness, in several stages. These difficult reforms were not gestured at or expressed in slogans—they were achieved.
Today, we design our projects according to past experience and future possibilities. Taking possible social and economic fluctuations into account, we make our plans flexible in order to leave room for any necessary modifications. Just like a young tree, the early Muslims grew slowly, adapting gradually to new conditions and thus developing naturally. Every day new people were coming into Islam. New Muslims were learning many things, gaining in Islamic consciousness, training themselves to act upon Islam, and thus becoming members of a society rather than separate individuals or mutually hostile clans. Their characters and personalities, their whole lives, were reshaped and reordered in accordance with Islamic precepts and the Qur'anic guidance.
Such was the magnitude of their spiritual, moral, intellectual, and even physical regeneration. This transformation was achieved through a balanced synthesis of worldly life and spiritual advancement, and it happened gradually, slowly yet continuously, and harmoniously.

Source: http://www.theholybook.org/content/view/9186/9

As you can see, nowhere does it mention that one can gain total knowledge of Allah... what one can do is draw closer to Allah - thru deed and intent. Distinction.

Btw, I'm an Indian Muslim too akhi :)

Scimi

[GodIsOne]

No, totally wrong.The Quran wasn't revealed to let you attain full knowledge of Allah. To say so is almost borderline shirk akhi.



As you can see, nowhere does it mention that one can gain total knowledge of Allah... what one can do is draw closer to Allah - thru deed and intent. Distinction.

Btw, I'm an Indian Muslim too akhi :)

Scimi

Sorry my mistake.

I meant that one can learn all about the oneness of Allah, and Allah's message to humanity through the Qu'ran.

Namaste: aap kahaan se hain bhai?

[Insaanah]

GodIsOne, please may I ask:

How long ago did you convert?
Were you always a hadeeth rejector, or did you reject them some time after converting?
What type of Muslims were you in contact around the time of your conversion? Did they reject hadeeth too?

There are a number of muslims that reject the Hadith.

In Islam, we don't go by the number of people that do something. We go by what Allah and His messenger (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have said to us. Incidentally, the overwhelming majority of Muslims, follow Qur'an and sunnah (as recorded in the hadeeth) as ordered by Allah and his prophet :saws:

Following the Hadith and trying to imitate Muhammed is idolatry. There I said it.

But what you said goes against the Qur'an, which you say you follow. In the Qur'an Allah tells us that in the messenger :saws: is a beautiful example for us to follow, and as per the ayah sister Ghareebah quoted, Allah tells the Prophet :saws: to command us to follow him. According to what you're saying then, the Qur'an (Allah forbid) is telling us to commit idolatry. The Prophet :saws: is our role model, and we should do our utmost to do all the good things he did. To say that doing so is idolatry, is wrong. I can understand that you've come from a polytheistic background, but please don't let that push you into going to the other extreme of believing that having the prophet as our role model to follow and to strive to follow him and obey and copy his example is idolatry. Allah sent all the Prophets as warners and bearers of Good tidings for mankind, and to be followed.

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah." (33:21)

[GodIsOne]

According to what you're saying then, the Qur'an (Allah forbid) is telling us to commit idolatry.

As another poster has already mentioned, I don't believe that the Hadith is free of political corruption and manipulation, and I don't believe that the Hadith accurately reflects Allah's messenger.

I can understand that you've come from a polytheistic background, but please don't let that push you into going to the other extreme of believing that having the prophet as our role model to follow and to strive to follow him and obey and copy his example is idolatry.

I just call it like I see it.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

AsSalaamu Alaaykum akhi,

As another poster has already mentioned, I don't believe that the Hadith is free of political corruption and manipulation, and I don't believe that the Hadith accurately reflects Allah's messenger.

Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

What do you make of this verse? When Allaah commands Rasoollalah (SAW) to say 'If you love Allaah then follow me'?

How would you follow him Sallaahu 'Alaayhi wa salam?

[syed1]

are you guys seriously debating about hadiths?

this man just converted to islam recently and he did not seem to get support from his peers so he sought support here and you guys are condemning his actions or belief about hadith already?

all of you should be ashamed of yourselves...

this isn't a time to give him a lecture and burden him with extraneous material...

give him support act like brother to him that's all he's here for.

Inshallah he will come to acknowledge the hadith IN DUE TIME. we don't need to start telling him every little thing which is right and wrong from the start..thats only going to repel him from islam..

seriously, this forum has disappointed me.

also none of you should be questioning his relationship with God and what his reasons are for why he doesn't believe in hadiths. He has every right to be sceptical cause they are prone to manipulation but we don't need to start lecturing him about the science of the hadiths and chain of transmissions etc..
His reason for not accepting them will be b/w him and God to no one else and God will deal with him most justly.

let him be for now and welcome the dude.

[IslamicRevival]

Im disturbed at the lack of respect you are showing towards our Nabi, peace be upon him. The ONLY way to paradise is to follow Allah AND his beloved Messenger, peace be upon him, there are no two ways about it

[GodIsOne]

Im disturbed at the lack of respect you are showing towards our Nabi, peace be upon him. The ONLY way to paradise is to follow Allah AND his beloved Messenger, peace be upon him, there are no two ways about it

If I felt that the Hadith truly and accurately reflected the words of Allah's messenger I would follow it just as I follow the Qu'ran.

I haven't disrespected Allah's messenger in any way, I'm sorry that you can't tolerate other schools of thought. We might be the minority of Muslims but Quarnism is a very real sect of Islam.

[Aprender]

I haven't disrespected Allah's messenger in any way, I'm sorry that you can't tolerate other schools of thought. We might be the minority of Muslims but Quarnism is a very real sect of Islam.

It is very sad to hear this continued talk of sects even though Allah warns us not to fall into this but it is what it is.

Anyway, welcome to the message board brother. Very happy to have you here with us. I am also a revert to Islam.

May Allah grant you happiness. Ameen.

[Futuwwa]

Im disturbed at the lack of respect you are showing towards our Nabi, peace be upon him. The ONLY way to paradise is to follow Allah AND his beloved Messenger, peace be upon him, there are no two ways about it

Maybe you shouldn't act like you are empowered to determine what constitutes disrespect and what does not.

We're never going to be united as an ummah if we keep chasing away people because of minor differences :hmm:

[~ Sabr ~]

:salamext:

^ Rejecting Hadith is not a minor difference.

[IslamicRevival]

If I felt that the Hadith truly and accurately reflected the words of Allah's messenger I would follow it just as I follow the Qu'ran.

I haven't disrespected Allah's messenger in any way, I'm sorry that you can't tolerate other schools of thought. We might be the minority of Muslims but Quarnism is a very real sect of Islam.

Its got nothing to do with tolerance, the fact you are questioning the fundamental beliefs whilst being a Muslim is shocking to me. You cannot say its idolatry to imitate our Nabi peace be upon him, That's showing disrespect to our Nabi peace be upon him and i take it to heart.

Maybe you shouldn't act like you are empowered to determine what constitutes disrespect and what does not.

We're never going to be united as an ummah if we keep chasing away people because of minor differences :hmm:

Maybe you should take a reality check. Minor differences? Were talking about the bare fundamentals of the deen here. To reject Hadith is bad enough but to claim is idolatry to follow and imitate Allah's Messenger, peace and blessing be upon him is bordering on blasphemous.

[Hulk]

Brother, it is a big step to convert from one religion to another. I'm sure it's not a decision that the brother made overnight. He says he rejects hadith because he doesn't believe they are free from corruption. It is unlikely that he would change his opinion within a few forum posts. Instead we can tell him to learn more about the science behind hadith. If we want to make it a topic of discussion then it should be in its proper place in one of the sub forums, not in someone's introduction.

How many muslim converts fell out of islam because fellow muslims pressure them that so and so is haram? I don't think anyone here wants to a contributing factor for someone to leave Islam. I think the fact that alcohol was made haram gradually instead of instantaneously should at least teach us that there is a journey involved in achieving what is right.

How many times did our Prophet pbuh reminded the non-muslims of Allah? He was patient and kind throughout the way. The irony in telling the people to follow the sunnah of the Prophet in an impatient manner.

[Galaxy]

:sl:, ahadeeth are also revelation, although they are not as authentic as the Quran, we must go by the strong ahadeeth or else we wouldn't know how to pray or the sunan and such. Speaking of worship, how exactly do you worship? :hmm:

[GodIsOne]

Its got nothing to do with tolerance, the fact you are questioning the fundamental beliefs whilst being a Muslim is shocking to me. You cannot say its idolatry to imitate our Nabi peace be upon him, That's showing disrespect to our Nabi peace be upon him and i take it to heart.



Maybe you should take a reality check. Minor differences? Were talking about the bare fundamentals of the deen here. To reject Hadith is bad enough but to claim is idolatry to follow and imitate Allah's Messenger, peace and blessing be upon him is bordering on blasphemous.

Fundamental beliefs? There has always been a group of muslims that reject the Hadith. I don't care how small that population of muslims might be, don't talk to me like some outsider because I choose not to follow your fundamentalism. I let religious fundamentalism kill my faith in spirituality and religion once, I'm not going to let it happen again.

My view of this obsession with imitating Allah's messenger as idolatrous is mine and mine alone, it has nothing to do with any of you. I'm not forcing or even asking any of you to accept my view as fact, think for yourselves. Blasphemy is wilfully slandering and disrespecting Allah's messenger which I have definitely not done. Choosing not to follow the Hadith does not in any way make me less faithful to Allah and his messenger than you are.

[aadil77]

My view of this obsession with imitating Allah's messenger as idolatrous is mine and mine alone, it has nothing to do with any of you. I'm not forcing or even asking any of you to accept my view as fact, think for yourselves. Blasphemy is wilfully slandering and disrespecting Allah's messenger which I have definitely not done. Choosing not to follow the Hadith does not in any way make me less faithful to Allah and his messenger than you are.

:sl: brother

I can understand why you would think imitating the prophet is 'idolatrous' especially coming from the background you're from.

Many times in history people have gone astray and turned people they revere into Gods. The Christians did the same with their love of prophet Isa. Now in Islam some sects can give this sort of image as well, when I was young I remember a barelwi (deviant sect person) telling me to love the prophet more than our Creator - It was shocking but I didn't know any better. This sort of excessiveness can put you off from following the prophet at all. Keep your connection with Allah Al-Mighty, glorify Him and praise Him - this is better than those who just continually send salams on the prophet.

What you have to remember is that prophet Muhammad (saws) is one of thousands of prophets and messengers sent to mankind. Their main task is to deliver a message to their people, some brought revelation others simply followed previous revelation but what they all will have done is put that message into practice. They will have explained the laws and practices that Allah will have wanted them to follow. Previously people were taught through verbal narration but eventually the message would be lost down the line, now we're fortunate that the sayings of the prophet have been recorded for us to use. Everything the prophet did or said was inline with divine revelation, we need this revelation to practice islam. Many vital explanations of verses of the Qur'an, many vital practices are found in the hadith.

You don't need to imitate the prophet with regards to the optional things he did but what is commanded in the hadith is part of revelation and has to be followed.

Like sis Ghareebah quoted:

"He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah..." [Quran 4:80]

Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."[ Al Qur'aan 3:31]

[IslamicRevival]

don't talk to me like some outsider because I choose not to follow your fundamentalism.

I really don't care what brand of Islam you follow. Anyone who recites the Shahadah is a Muslim but to reject the Sunnah, ways of our Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is a dangerous thing to do. Its only out of love for our Nabi peace be upon him that im even posting in this thread.

Choosing not to follow the Hadith does not in any way make me less faithful to Allah and his messenger than you are

I agree, but..

Allah has commanded us to follow our Nabi, peace be upon him.

'He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allâh, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as a watcher over them'
Surah An Nisa, Verse 80

..but you say its idolatry to imitate him..

How can you be faithful to Allah (and his Messenger peace be upon him) by disobeying him.
Doesn't add up

[Insaanah]

Was just reading another thread and saw this:

There are a number of Muslims including myself who believe in the historical crucifixion of يَسُوعَ ... The Qu'ran itself never explicitly says that يَسُوعَ was not physically crucified.

The entire purpose of crucifixion was to humiliate the crucified and terrify their followers or those who thought of following them. The Qu'ran refers to the Jew's failed plot to eradicate the spirit and word of Allah.

[2:155] And say not of those who are killed in the cause of Allah that they are dead; nay, they are living; only you perceive not.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1513029

If by Yasoo' you mean Isa alayhissalaam, (Jesus, peace be upon him), then this is what the Qur'an states:

Pickthall
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-(4:157)

(Underlining mine)

I pray that over time inshaa'Allah, you will be open to what is said, and that you learn much from your stay on the forum, and that Allah guides us all, ameen.

Peace.

[GodIsOne]

but it appeared so unto them

"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" Luke(23:46)

يَسُوعَ said this before he ascended to the heavens and Allah. يَسُوعَ did not die from the crucifixion so he was not technically crucified "but it appeared so unto them"

It takes several days of agony and torment for people to die, while يَسُوعَ willingly chose to ascend to heaven after just 6 hours. He was not crucified "but it appeared so unto them"

[Insaanah]

يَسُوعَ did not die from the crucifixion

It takes several days of agony and torment for people to die, while يَسُوعَ willingly chose to ascend to heaven after just 6 hours.

Interestingly, the ayat says, they did not kill Isa (Alayhissalaam), and they did not crucify him. It mentions the two seperately. It is not saying that they didn't kill him but he was crucified without dying. It's saying neither was he killed, and neither was he crucified. None of those two things happened, at all. So he was not crucified without dying, and then raised up. It means he was not crucified at all.

This is what happened:

Sahih International
Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. (4:158)

Peace.

[Futuwwa]

Maybe you should take a reality check. Minor differences? Were talking about the bare fundamentals of the deen here.

Matter of definition, not fact. There is no part in the shahada about recognizing the authenticity and authority of the hadiths.

[Futuwwa]

No, totally wrong.The Quran wasn't revealed to let you attain full knowledge of Allah. To say so is almost borderline shirk akhi.

Shirk? Like, how? Does not compute. How does believing the Quran to be sufficient constitute worshiping others beside Allah?

Shirk is an accusation so lightly thrown around nowadays that it's becoming a meaningless buzzword.

[GodIsOne]

Crucifixion is a form of execution.

If someone fails to die a humiliating death from it then that means he was not crucified... it's that simple

The mention of two seperate instances "Killed or Crucified" is due to the fact that the Babylonian Talmud says Yeshua was hanged, and that many Rabbinical leaders spread deliberate lies about his "execution" to make themselves look self-righteous.

[Insaanah]

There is no part in the shahada about recognizing the authenticity and authority of the hadiths.

When you accept Muhammad :saws: as the messenger of Allah (which is part of the shahadah, and one of the conditions of the shahadah is acceptance), that means accepting him wholeheartedly, his sayings too.

But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (O Muhammad SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission. (4:65)

If you say, "I accept him as messenger, but reject x command of his and reject y command of his, and don't believe he said a, b and c, and even though it is said he commanded d, e, and f, I don't believe those statements are true or authentic at all", despite a unanimous agreement of the righteous scholars with multiple verified strong chains of narration, attesting the authenticity and strongness of the same hadeeth, then that begs the question as to how strong that acceptance really is. If his sayings aren't to be accepted, he's not a role model to aspire to and try to imitate, then is it simply a case of believing that he existed and that Allah just revealed the Qur'an to him and nothing else? Remember shaytaan believes in Allah too. Simply believing is not enough, we have to whole heartedly accept, and obey. And obedience to the Prophet can only be done if you know what he did, said, approved of, and commanded. And you can only know that through the hadeeth, the records of his sayings, actions and approvals.

^ As for the crucifixion, as far as I know, there is no proof from the Qur'an or hadeeth, that Isa alayhissalam ever went onto the cross or stake.

And Allah knows best in all matters.

[GodIsOne]

Those are your words not mine.

As far as I am concerned you're interpretation of scripture means nothing to me. There are numerous muslim scholars who agree with my point of view.

[Jalal~]

:sl: welcome to the forum!
I see you are from India, i guess that makes you my biggest rival in cricket ;)

But yea, since your already in some heated discussions, ill just give my say-so on the subject and move on.
As you might already know, as a Muslim, one of the six fundamental beliefs is that we should believe in all the books sent down to all the Prophets (such as the Torah, Bible, & obviously Quran, etc.). But all of these books were either lost or corrupted, which is why Allah sent down the Quran to his final messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him)

And so since he was such an important figure in Islam, many of his closest buddies wrote down basically his whole life. It was completely public to the world, even the things he did with his wives were mentioned.
But of course, there were haters. They made up their own sayings and what not and pretended that these were the words of the Muhammad (peace be upon him).

So yes, you are right, there are many hadiths out there that are corrupted or wrong. But that doesn't mean that all of them were wrong.

What I'm trying to say here is that you should at least give the authentic hadiths a chance. Just like you gave Islam a chance and behold, Allah straightened out the path for you and invited you to the greatest religion in the world.

I mean its not like all of the thousands of hadiths can be wrong, can they? I mean, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) promoted good into the world, he told people to keep a smile on there face, and donate to charity; he mentioned that the strongest men were the ones who could control their anger and the best men were the ones who were best to their wives. After you do read some of the basic and popular hadiths, you'll realize that all of them aren't corrupted or wrong after all.

All I'm saying is that you should read some hadiths and give it a chance, just like you did with the Quran.

[GodIsOne]

All I'm saying is that you should read some hadiths and give it a chance, just like you did with the Quran.

I'm really skeptical of the Hadith, but you're right I was also very skeptical of the Qu'ran at one point in time.

Can you recommend any Hadith that you feel are essential to the Islamic faith? Either Shia or Sunni. I'll give it an honest try and see where it goes.

[Futuwwa]

When you accept Muhammad :saws: as the messenger of Allah (which is part of the shahadah, and one of the conditions of the shahadah is acceptance), that means accepting him wholeheartedly, his sayings too.

Which is irrelevant for the discussion unless you actually believe the hadiths accurately reflect him in the first place. Whether the hadiths accurately reflect him is a historical, not theological, question.

[SFatima]

:sl:
I must add something here.

We all (all of us who start to read the Quran) think that we are quite apt in understanding everything as per our own limited grasp in this vast literature. I used to think the same, till i studied under a scholar. What I did read on my own, gave me a lot to go on, but it was NOT enough to last , for a very long time.

You tend to miss genuine interpretations , good appropriate evidence based interpretations when you read everything on your own and have no idea how to link all of it; where's the missing links, how did this verse come after this, why was this verse said, when was it said? etc and etc.

All that knowledge is given in the hadith literature, about the time, place and event of the verse being revealed, the lesson that it meant to compound and the extent of the effect it was supposed to give. We, normal book readers of the Quran and sunnah have NO IDEA what to actually derive from so many verses, which have a whole battle, or a big event to read up on behind them. Without sitting with a scholar even on a weekly basis, it is so hard to grasp the depth of Islam, and the colossal knowledge in it.

It is just like claiming to become a doctor just be giving a few reads to all the medical books. Scholars spend their lifetimes studying from authentic certified sources, in every minute detail and then they comprehensively deliver that knowledge to common people for better understanding. We cannot deduce much out of the Quran even after a solid hundred reads: a comprehensive preface , a context is absolutely mandatory to be known in order to be able to even begin to understand it.

It is only the people who've sat with scholars who understand the importance of hadith, the rest mostly seem to roam around as pseudo experts on the Quran and on its depth, just by verbally reading its meanings. Its just like missing the whole text's essence and beauty by not reading up about how it actually happened.

Lastly, If one keeps on praying to Allah swt for true guidance, with all their sincerity, Allah will protect them against disbelief and fitna. One must regularly pray to Allah that if this thing is the right one, make my heart accept it with full conviction. Rest your guidance in the hands of Allah swt, and you will never go astray. May ALlAH swt be with you and ease your way, ameen.

[aadil77]

I'm really skeptical of the Hadith, but you're right I was also very skeptical of the Qu'ran at one point in time.

Can you recommend any Hadith that you feel are essential to the Islamic faith? Either Shia or Sunni. I'll give it an honest try and see where it goes.

That's good :)

Hadith cannot be read in the same form as the Qur'an many will apply to different situations but here's a book with some common hadtih:

http://hadithcollection.com/download...ty-hadith.html

[Jalal~]

Can you recommend any Hadith that you feel are essential to the Islamic faith? Either Shia or Sunni. I'll give it an honest try and see where it goes.

of course! since you've recently converted to Islam, i think this one will make your faith stronger at times of ease or hardships:
The Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said: "Strange is the affair of the mu'min (believer). Verily, all his affairs are good for him. If something pleasing befalls him he thanks (Allah) and it becomes better for him. And if something harmful befalls him he is patient (saabir) and it becomes better for him. And this is only for the mu'min."

[Insaanah]

This doesn't directly answer your question, but you might find the following book helpful to clear your misconceptions or concerns about hadeeth:

Usool al-Hadeeth: The Methodology of Hadeeth Evaluation, by Dr Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips

It covers their history, compilation, transmission, the science of isnaad (chains of narration), classification (including weak, and addresses your concerns about hadeeth being manipulated for various reasons, political/philosophical and others), and more.

It is over 150 pages, but maybe see what interests you from the contents page (below, not in the pdf for some reason) and dip into that from time to time inshaa'Allah..

Page numbers refer to Adobe page numbers, as the book itself that's been converted to pdf doesn't seem to have page numbers.

Section One: Definitions............page 2
Section 2: Compilation...............page 9
Section 3: Transmission.............page 19
Section 4: Classification.............page 35
Section 5: Conflict......................page 77
Section 6: Criticism....................page 82
Section 7: Grading.....................page 92
Section 8: Literature..................page 109
Section 9: Biographies...............page 138
Section 10: Women Scholars.......page 149
Section 11: Appendix One..........page 156
Section 12: Appendix 2...............page 160
Section 13: Bibliography..............page 162

Give it a go with an open mind... May Allah make it easy for you, ameen.

[Scimitar]

Shirk? Like, how? Does not compute. How does believing the Quran to be sufficient constitute worshiping others beside Allah?

Shirk is an accusation so lightly thrown around nowadays that it's becoming a meaningless buzzword.

I said it was "almost, borderliine shirk" ... it would help if you read my post in context.

Salaam.

Scimi

[Muhammad]

:sl:

There has always been a group of muslims that reject the Hadith. I don't care how small that population of muslims might be,

Other than in the last couple of hundred years, would you mind mentioning who rejected Hadith before that time?

Here is an article about the indispensability of the Hadeeth: http://kalamullah.com/hadith04.html

Please also be sure to visit the Hadeeth section of our forum where we have many articles and responses to people in your position:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/

[YusufNoor]

I'm really skeptical of the Hadith, but you're right I was also very skeptical of the Qu'ran at one point in time.

Can you recommend any Hadith that you feel are essential to the Islamic faith? Either Shia or Sunni. I'll give it an honest try and see where it goes.

:sl:

there is a cool story in the Seerah regarding the Night Journey. some left Islam upon hearing the story. Abu Jahl was actually delighted to hear it cuz he knew it would cause problems for Rasulullah, pbuh. ONE PERSON, Abu Bakr, wasn't phased by the story. he simply said, "IF[emphasis mine] he [Muhammad, pbuh] said it, then I believe him!"

it is a great standard for Hadeeth. if you truly believe Rasulullah said something, then what would be wrong with it?

oh, and no 2 from An Nawai's 40 Hadeeth:

HADITH 2
Also on the authority of Omar, who said : One day while we were sitting with the messenger of Allah there appeared before us a man whose clothes were exceedingly white and whose hair was exceedingly black; no signs of journeying were to be seen on him and none of us knew him. He walked up and sat down by the prophet. Resting his knees against his and placing the palms of his hands on his thighs, he said:"O Muhammed, tell me about Islam". The messenger of Allah said: "Islam is to testify that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is the messenger of Allah, to perform the prayers, to pay the zakat, to fast in Ramadhan, and to make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to do so." He said:"You have spoken rightly", and we were amazed at him asking him and saying that he had spoken rightly. He said: "Then tell me about eman ."He said:"It is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and to believe in divine destiny, both the good and the evil thereof." He said:"You have spoken rightly". He said: " Then tell me about ehsan ." He said: "It is to worship Allah as though you are seeing Him, and while you see Him not yet truly He sees you". He said: "Then tell me about the Hour". He said: "The one questioned about it knows no better than the questioner." He said: "Then tell me about its signs." He said: "That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and that you will see the barefooted, naked, destitute herdsman competing in constructing lofty buildings." Then he took himself off and I stayed for a time. Then he said: "O Omar, do you know who the questioner was?" I said: "Allah and His messenger know best". He said: "He was Jebreel (Gabriel), who came to you to teach you your religion."

pretty much a "rock" of Islam

:wa:

[Futuwwa]

I said it was "almost, borderliine shirk" ... it would help if you read my post in context.

Salaam.

Scimi

Then, the question simply changes to "why is it almost, borderline shirk?"

Or is "almost, borderline" code for "I feel that way even though I can make no rational argument to that effect"?

[Futuwwa]

And why was this thread turned to one on the authority of the hadith? All I'm calling for is tolerance and inclusion of GodIsOne.

[marwen]

No, totally wrong.The Quran wasn't revealed to let you attain full knowledge of Allah. To say so is almost borderline shirk akhi.

Shirk? Like, how? Does not compute. How does believing the Quran to be sufficient constitute worshiping others beside Allah?

Shirk is an accusation so lightly thrown around nowadays that it's becoming a meaningless buzzword.

As far as I know, full knowledge of Allah is only private to Allah. Claiming you fully know/can_know Allah, is claiming to have something proper to Allah. To That's why - if I understood well - bro Scimitar described it as something similar to shirk. Correct me if my understanding is wrong.

[IslamicRevival]

I dont understand why some Muslims reject Hadith, even though they interlink and are perfectly in line with authentic Islamic teachings. On top of that, the vast majority of Scholars USE Hadith to try and penetrate and gain more of an understanding when interpreting verses of the Quran and to also learn more about the best of creation, our Nabi, Peace be upon him. If youre a Hadith rejecter, and i say this with all due respect...I guess its your loss.

[Hulk]

As far as I know, full knowledge of Allah is only private to Allah. Claiming you fully know/can_know Allah, is claiming to have something proper to Allah.

That is correct akhi.. Even the angels said this.

" They said, ‘May You be glorified! We have knowledge only of what You have taught us. You are the All Knowing and All Wise.’ "
Sura Baqara Verse 32

[dqsunday]

The Qur'an cannot allow anybody to obtain full knowledge of Allah, that would any who understand the Qur'an as equal to Allah and none are equal or comparable to him. The Qur'an, in my understanding is the Truth of how we, as slaves of Allah are to honor and worship him. Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wasalam) is Allah's messenger but like us, he is also his slave.

But, don't take my word for it, I have only been a Muslim about two months...and I have a long way to go to even learn the Hadiths. However, one thing I found which may be beneficial to GodIsOne and everybody else, is this series of lectures/videos about the Seerah. I have only watched the first three parts, but its very interesting so far. It may answer questions and clarify things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y22vp...9682017B43845D

[Orangeduck]

My problem with the hadiths is that they date to 250 years after muhamad died. I often wonder why it took so long for them to get recorded.

My parents never placed my emphasis on the hadiths when we were growing up, so I never really read and studied them till only a few years ago. Most of them are rather dull to read in my opinion (not everyone if going to agree with me).

[Hulk]

so I never really read and studied them till only a few years ago.

Would that be the same time you studied and started speaking koine greek?

[Orangeduck]

Would that be the same time you studied and started speaking koine greek?

Nope. I started reading the Hadiths before starting to learn Koine Greek :)

[Insaanah]

Greetings

My problem with the hadiths is that they date to 250 years after muhamad died. I often wonder why it took so long for them to get recorded.

You made this assertion before, here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1513217

The ahadeeth actually began to be written down during the lifetime of the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Amr said: “I used to write everything which I heard from the Messenger of Allaah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) with the intention of memorizing it. However, some of the Quraysh forbade me from doing so saying, ‘Do you write everything that you hear from him, while the Messenger of Allaah is a human being who speaks in anger and pleasure?’ So I stopped writing, and mentioned it to the Messenger of Allah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). He pointed with his finger to his mouth and said: ‘Write! By Him in whose hand is my soul, only truth comes out from it.’
(Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, p. 1035, no. 3639)

Abu Hurayrah said: When Makkah was conquered, the Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) stood up and gave a sermon [Abu Hurayrah then mentioned the sermon]. A man from Yemen, called Abu Shaah got up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah! Write it down for me.” The Messenger of Allaah (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) replied, “Write it for Abu Shaah.”
Al-Waleed asked Abu ‘Amr, “What are they writing?” He replied, “The sermon which he heard that day.”
(Sunan Abu Dawud, vol. 3, no. 3641 and 3642)

Some were also written down after he died, as the need to preserve what he'd said and done then took on a new importance and urgency.

Most of them are rather dull to read in my opinion (not everyone if going to agree with me).

The ahadeeth are not for entertainment value, but for us to learn how best to follow the example of the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace and blessing be upon him).

Peace.

[Ali_008]

http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...ml#post1479246

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

My problem with the hadiths is that they date to 250 years after muhamad died. I often wonder why it took so long for them to get recorded.

My parents never placed my emphasis on the hadiths when we were growing up, so I never really read and studied them till only a few years ago. Most of them are rather dull to read in my opinion (not everyone if going to agree with me).

Greetings,

I don't understand, your the same member who mentioned, hafs, Qalun and Warsh are different versions of the Qur'aan,
How can you be so sure of what you say?

And it makes me wonder what your purpose on board is since Islaam seems so 'dull' to you..

[Orangeduck]

Greetings,

I don't understand, your the same member who mentioned, hafs, Qalun and Warsh are different versions of the Qur'aan,
How can you be so sure of what you say?

And it makes me wonder what your purpose on board is since Islaam seems so 'dull' to you..

Well, the hafs Is not word for word identical to the warsh, which is not word for word identical to the sana quran, which is not word for word identical to the Ciaro quran.

So what is was true. And to the person who said the hadiths were written down durring the lifetime of Muhammad, then I offer you this challenge. Find me a single document that records what Muhammad said that pre-dates Bukhari. I have heard people make the claim as you, but no one can point to a document from muhammmad's life that can be verifiably attributed to him :)

Edit: I never said or implied islam was "dull", so I'm. It sure why you felt the need to lie

[Insaanah]

And to the person who said the hadiths were written down durring the lifetime of Muhammad, then I offer you this challenge. Find me a single document that records what Muhammad said that pre-dates Bukhari. I have heard people make the claim as you, but no one can point to a document from muhammmad's life that can be verifiably attributed to him

I have no need to. Once the ahaadeeth had been verified and were put into hadeeth collections, and were in general distribution, there wasn't any need for any originals to be kept. There may be details of some, Allahu a3lam. But their not being recorded as an "official" document doesn't mean they weren't written down. That hadeeth mentioned above for a Muslim is enough proof. And if you don't believe in the hadeeth anyway, then whether such a document exists is meaningless - there are more fundamental issues to be tackled.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Well, the hafs Is not word for word identical to the warsh, which is not word for word identical to the sana quran, which is not word for word identical to the Ciaro quran.

So what is was true. And to the person who said the hadiths were written down durring the lifetime of Muhammad, then I offer you this challenge. Find me a single document that records what Muhammad said that pre-dates Bukhari. I have heard people make the claim as you, but no one can point to a document from muhammmad's life that can be verifiably attributed to him :)

Edit: I never said or implied islam was "dull", so I'm. It sure why you felt the need to lie

Do you think Islaam is beautiful?

I apologise i've no intention to make a lie against you, but I assumed that from a few of your posts, calling the Qur'aan and now the hadeeth 'dull'..

You stated in a previous closed thread that nobody answered your question regards to Hafs, Qalun and Warsh being a different 'version' of the Qur'aan, i gave you an answer in that thread. Please re-read it as I do not wish to put this thread off-topic.

Re-read bottom of post #29 of mine if you like.

-->http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ngeduck-2.html <--


Can I ask, are you able to read, speak or understand arabic?

[Muhammad]

And why was this thread turned to one on the authority of the hadith? All I'm calling for is tolerance and inclusion of GodIsOne.

There was a discussion on this topic in GodIsOne's introduction thread, so I moved those posts here so that the original thread would not go off-topic.

[Scimitar]

As far as I know, full knowledge of Allah is only private to Allah. Claiming you fully know/can_know Allah, is claiming to have something proper to Allah. To That's why - if I understood well - bro Scimitar described it as something similar to shirk. Correct me if my understanding is wrong.

Absolutely right.

To claim knowledge of the unseen is what the sorcerers and magicians do - and they are most definitely guilty of shirk. There are lengthy explanations on this in SUnan Abu Dawood.

However, today - some people often mis-translate and mis-interrpet Quran and hadeeth to fit in with their own understanding - this is not the path to knowledge, but the path to corruption.

For example, some people will read ayahs from the Quran and then claim they have found a secret or something - maybe even claim to know everything about Allah - as if full knowledge of Allah can be contained in a book. Kinda wrong don't you think?

Anyone who claims knowledge of the unseen, is guilty of claiming Asma was Sifaat of Allah, and therefore are partnering themselves up with Allah - that is shirk. Allah is unseen...

I mentioned "almost borderline shirk" because I doubt that the OP realised this was what they were unwittingly claiming. However, it seems that they had no intention of being a polytheist - so, repentance is still a very good option. May Allah accept it, Ameen.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

My problem with the hadiths is that they date to 250 years after muhamad died. I often wonder why it took so long for them to get recorded.

It's understandable that you feel this way - which is why i have taken the time to answer your question.

Moving on, this Art of Narration was lost after the Niceans had managed to hijack Christianity... But in Arabia - a land where even the most adventurous wouldn't dare travel into because it was known as the "wilderness" (unhospitable land too difficult for normal folk to survive in) and was widely beleived to be populated by barbaric tribes; the Art of Narrative was not only preserved - but improved upon by the nomads and the dwellers of the land itself. Their culture and customs were largely unaffecgted by the progress seen in the world at the time. Infact, Arabia was known as the old world - simply because the oldest teachings were still practiced there (not talking religion here - but cultural and traditional ones - such as the art of narration).

When people mention "lost arts" and "Lost knowledge" they really should look towards the Arabian cultural and traditional practices of a bygone era - especially because the Arabs were the last people to hold onto the old teachings, in the world.

back to hadeeth, In Arabia, the legal requirements that were expected for a narration to be believable and trusted, required a certain amount of scientific process. We now have something called "the chain of narration" which must be trusted through its various narrators - meaning that if even one narrator had been found out to have told just one small little white lie - his testimony and narration of the story, would be classed as unauthentic... Kinda harsh you may think. But given the sensitivity of the materials/narrations, it is very necessary to make sure we don't accept lies and liars as givers of truth.

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is only those who believe not in the Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, who fabricate falsehood, and it is they who are liars."
[al-Nahl 16:105]

Ibn Kathir said:

“Then Allah tells us that His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not a fabricator or a liar, because only the most evil of people who do not believe in the signs of Allah, the kafirs and heretics who are known amongst the people for telling lies, tell lies about Allah and His Messenger(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was the most truthful of people, the most righteous, the most perfect in knowledge, action, faith and certain belief. He was known amongst his people for his truthfulness; none of them doubted that, to such an extent that he was known amongst them as ‘al-Ameen (the trustworthy) Muhammad.’
So, when Heraclius, the ruler of Rome, asked Abu Sufyan about the characteristics of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), one of the things he asked was, ‘Did you ever accuse him of lying before he said what he said?’ He said, ‘No.’ Heraclius said: ‘If he refrained from telling lies about people he would not go and tell lies about Allah’
(Tafseer Ibn Kathir, 2/588)

2. It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks, he lies; when he makes a promise, he breaks it; and when he is entrusted with something, he betrays that trust.”
(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 33; Muslim, 59)

al-Nawawi said:

“What the commentators and most of the scholars said – which is correct – is that this means that these characteristics are the characteristics of hypocrisy, and the one who has these characteristics resembles the hypocrites in this sense."
The words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), ‘He is a pure hypocrite’ mean that he strongly resembles the hypocrites because of these characteristics.

Some of the scholars said: this is concerning one in whom these characteristics predominate; one in whom these characteristics rarely appear is not included in this. This is the favored view concerning the meaning of this hadeeth. Imam Abu ‘Eesa al-Tirmidhi (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated this meaning from the scholars and said: ‘The meaning of this according to the scholars is hypocrisy in one's actions.’”
(Sharh Muslim, 2/46-47)

The most evil kinds of lies are:

1. Lies told about Allah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
This is the most serious kind of lie, and the one who does this is subject to a severe warning. Some of the scholars said that the one who does this is to be denounced as a kafir.

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: ‘Verily, those who invent a lie against Allah will never be successful’”
[Yunus 10:69]

It was narrated that ‘Ali (may Allah be pleased with him): “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: ‘Do not tell lies about me. Whoever tells lies about me, let him enter the Fire.’”
(Narrated by al-Bukhari, 106).

It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “Whoever tells lies about me, let him take his place in Hell.”
(narrated by al-Bukhari, 110; Muslim, 3).

Ibn al-Qayyim said:
“… ‘Whoever tells lies about me, let him take his place in Hell’, i.e., let him take his place in Hell where he will abide and settle; it is not like a manzil or camp where he stays for a while and then moves on.”
(Tareeq al-Hijratayn, p. 169)

And thus, we see why we have such a stringent methodology in recording hadeeth. No one wants to propagate a false hadeeth and end up in the hellfire.

Over the past millennia, we have seen that the Art of Narration has been taken very seriously - so seriously infact, that it is no longer called the respectful term of "The Art of Narration" but now, has a much more appropriate and respectful term borne out of improving the methodology of collecting hadeeth... it is now called "The Science of Hadeeth" due to the stringent approach in methodology.

Anyone who rejects the sahih (authentic) hadeeth has disobeyed Allah and HIS messenger, may peace and blessing be upon him and his family, Ameen.

Scimi

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Well, the hafs Is not word for word identical to the warsh, which is not word for word identical to the sana quran, which is not word for word identical to the Ciaro quran.

My problem with the hadiths is that they date to 250 years after muhamad died. I often wonder why it took so long for them to get recorded.

What is interesting to note is that both of these are Christian missionary claims, which of course have been refuted multiple times. The first one was already addressed in your previous thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rangeduck.html

And the second one has been dealt with here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...eth-myths.html

More about early hadeeth collections:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/hadith.html

My parents never placed my emphasis on the hadiths when we were growing up, so I never really read and studied them till only a few years ago.

Then you must by now be familiar with the science of Hadith in Islam - generations of scholars have laid down a whole system of classification and criticism of hadeeth, where both the body of the hadeeth along with its multiple chains of narration are analysed, and each chain examined for the frequency of narration, continuity to the Prophet (may Allaah's peace and blessings be upon him) and every narrator evaluated for his honesty and strength of memory... if we employed this methodology to the study of the Bible, we would very soon note the huge disparity in authenticity.

In his introduction to Hafidh Ibn Hajar's Al Isabah fee Tamyeez_is_ Sahaaba, Dr A.Sprenger has paid a glowing tribute to the scholars of the Traditions (hadith):

"The glory of the literature of the Mohammedans is its literary biography. There is no nation, nor has there been any which like them has during twelve centuries recorded the life of every man of letters. If the biographical records of the Musalmans were collected, we should probably have accounts of the lives of half a million of distinguished persons. and it would be found that there is not a decennium of their history, nor a place of importance which has not its representatives." Sprenger vol.1, pg.1.

Taken from 'Ali Miyan Nadwi's "Saviors of Islamic Spirit", chapter on the Traditionists and Jurists of Islam with minor spelling changes.

One only has to visit threads like these to appreciate the depth and complexity of this science:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...m-hadeeth.html

Most of them are rather dull to read in my opinion (not everyone if going to agree with me).

That is unfortunate, assuming of course, that you have read the thousands upon thousands of hadeeth to make such a bold judgement? I am sure that even a non-Muslim like yourself can appreciate many beautiful teachings conveyed through the hadeeth. We've had numerous threads here where people can share their favourite hadeeth, perhaps you might like to visit those to refresh your memory:
http://www.islamicboard.com/hadeeth/...e-hadeeth.html

Regards.