Quranism

[BadOlPuttyTat]

What is most people's actions to the "Quranist" movement? Many Muslims dislike the corruption and false interpretations of Haddiths for specific gain that they decided to only follow the Quran and Quran only. Its more of a "pure Islam" so i am told but it also creates issues since we all know not all doctrine is in the Quran itself. I find this movement to be wise and somewhat dumb at the same time. I myself recall a Christian movement that didn't want to be influenced by un-knowledgeable Baptist/Protestant preachers, and they simply called themselves Christians to stop sects and influence. The Quranist's have a reputation for removing parts of Haddiths for their own benefit making a even more corrupted system sometimes and contradicting themselves. I understand people who don't want to read Haddiths since they wish not to be influenced by ideals and doctrine outside of the Quran but wouldn't that be a bit dumb? The details of praying, worshiping and Hajj to my understanding are not fully explained in the Quran so wouldn't that be a big contradiction? Shed some light on this for me people :statisfie

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam /Peace


people during the time of the last Prophet pbuh and rightly guided Caliphs puth did not know about "Quranist" movement .

They followed both Quran & Sunnah . Now a days , we are ' more ' Muslims than them :hmm:

[Perseveranze]

The Qur'an is the product, the gift to mankind, the mercy and the guide. The hadiths is the instructions manual on how to utilize this gift and make the most out of it.

Qur'anists really really have no leg to stand on.

[Darth Ultor]

I made a thread for this a while ago. Doesn't it say in the Quran to follow the word of the Prophets, which in this case would be the Sunnah of Muhammad?

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[GodIsOne]

Many Muslims dislike the corruption and false interpretations of Haddiths for specific gain that they decided to only follow the Quran and Quran only.

There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance has become distinct from error. But whoever disbelieves in false gods and believes in Allah has grasped the strong handle that will never break. And Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing.[2:256]

The Quranist's have a reputation for removing parts of Haddiths for their own benefit making a even more corrupted system sometimes and contradicting themselves.

:hmm: Obviously you don't understand Quranism.

Quranists reject the authority of ALL hadith... there is nothing to corrupt and a Quranist has to accept the entire Quran we can't just pick and choose which verses to follow. The entire point of Quranism is to employ our own independent reasoning with regard to theological and authoritative issues. Nothing should be used alongside the verbatim word of Allah(Qu'ran).

Btw I have a good question for all of you claiming that Quranists don't know how to worship or pray: Did Yeshua have a Hadith to tell him how to pray to Allah? Or any other prophet before Muhammed for that matter?

[Hulk]

Salam bro.. I don't think its proper to compare ourselves to Prophets.. they were all clearly rightly guided.

The Quran tells muslims to follow the Quran and Sunnah. The Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh can be found in the Hadiths.

[GodIsOne]

Did Yeshua have a Hadith to tell him how to pray to Allah? Or any other prophet before Muhammed for that matter?

Granted, I still follow all of the Qu'ran's instructions for prayer.

And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember.[11:114]

Establish prayer at the decline of the sun [from its meridian] until the darkness of the night and [also] the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.[17:78]

[GodIsOne]

I don't think its proper to compare ourselves to Prophets

I'm not in any way comparing anyone to those prophets. I'm just trying to demonstrate that the prophets before Muhammed didn't follow the rigid formula of orthodox Sunni prayer.

[Hulk]

If you really do follow the Quran, you would have returned my greeting.

[GodIsOne]

If you really do follow the Quran, you would have returned my greeting.

Salamun Alayka

I don't see how one little error gives you the right to question my faith.

[Hulk]

I don't see how one little error gives you the right to question my faith.

I am not questioning your faith, I am pointing out that as human beings we make mistakes so try not to be arrogant in the way you speak.

Not only will it make you short tempered but it will also harden your heart making it hard for you to differentiate between truth and falsehood.

Keep in mind that we are answerable for our words in the hereafter.
-------------
Prayer is only rigid to someone who only judges it from a shallow perspective. A person who sees more than that would be able to appreciate the commitment and humility involved, and even that is based on the outward.

[Aprender]

:sl:

Btw I have a good question for all of you claiming that Quranists don't know how to worship or pray: Did Yeshua have a Hadith to tell him how to pray to Allah? Or any other prophet before Muhammed for that matter?

Hmm. Maybe a brief comparative religion can help with this question. I think it's important to note that the Prophets, peace be upon them, were messengers to the people they were sent to. They were instructed by Allah to show the people they were sent to the correct way to worship and how to carry themselves in everyday life. So I don't think Yeshua (peace be upon him) would need a hadith to tell him how to pray to Allah (swt) when he was getting direction straight from the source.

I was a Christian for much longer than I have been a Muslim. And I have to say that a lot of what we had in the Bible was very similar to hadith, as in the sayings of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, and not necessarily the word of God. A lot of what you have in the Bible are the reported sayings and stories of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him.

The only problem with it is that they can't really be completely authenticated in the way that hadith can be as we don't really know who the authors of some of the books in the Bible are. With that said, here are some verses from the Bible that tells Christians how they are supposed to behave when doing things like giving charity, fasting and in prayer. Notice that the quotes here indicate that these are the sayings of Jesus (peace be upon him) as recorded in the Bible.

In the Old Testament the LORD says:
Proverbs 28:27
²⁷ Those who give to the poor will lack nothing,
but those who close their eyes to them receive many curses.

But what exactly is the manner in which someone should give to the poor? What is the best way to go about doing this? In the New Testament, Jesus (peace be upon him) explains it this way according to the Bible.

Giving to the Needy
6 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
² “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ³ But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, ⁴ so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

So while it is commanded for the Christian to give charity in the Old Testament, the sayings of Jesus (pbuh) illustrate that it shouldn't be done in a boastful way but rather done in secret for there is greater reward for it that way.

On Prayer
Christians know that they are supposed to pray to their Lord. Pslams 95:6 illustrates this form of worship.
⁶ Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the Lord our Maker;

You will see that the method to do this is illustrated by bowing of some sort. Even in Genesis, we find this worship of the Lord.
²⁶ Then the man bowed down and worshiped the Lord,

And Daniel, peace be upon him, with a similar method, except here you get a little bit more information about how many times a day.

¹⁰ Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before.

But the way that they know what they should say while they are in worship is from the way Jesus (peace be upon him) instructed the Christians to do in the Bible in the New Testament.

Matthew 6
⁹ “This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
¹⁰ your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
¹¹ Give us today our daily bread.
¹² And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
¹³ And lead us not into temptation,^[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.^[b]’

You will hear many Christians saying this, better known as The Lords Prayer.

Jesus, peace be upon him, also tells his followers according to the Bible:
⁵ “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. ⁷ And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. ⁸ Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

So you can see if someone through his own independent thought got the idea that asking or babbling would get his prayer answered, Jesus (pbuh) corrects it before a habit like that can form.

Fasting
Fasting is something that is talked about in the Old Testament. According to Joel 2 in the Bible:
¹² “Even now,” declares the Lord,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning.”

Jesus, peace be upon him, explains to his followers in the manner that they should fast here in the Bible.
⁶ “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. ¹⁷ But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, ¹⁸ so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

So here you can see that it was commanded of them to fast, but Jesus (peace be upon him) explains the way that it should be done in a way that is the most pleasing to God.

And Allah knows best in all matters.

The entire point of Quranism is to employ our own independent reasoning with regard to theological and authoritative issues.

I see what you mean but that is the same thing that happened with the Israelites during the time of Moses (peace be upon him). He went away for a while and when he returned what did those people do? They worshiped the calf because of someone elses independent reasoning with regard to theological issues! A lesson can be learned from this in the Quran.

[Allah] said, "But indeed, We have tried your people after you [departed], and the Samiri has led them astray."

So Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved. He said, "O my people, did your Lord not make you a good promise? Then, was the time [of its fulfillment] too long for you, or did you wish that wrath from your Lord descend upon you, so you broke your promise [of obedience] to me?"

They said, "We did not break our promise to you by our will, but we were made to carry burdens from the ornaments of the people [of Pharaoh], so we threw them [into the fire], and thus did the Samiri throw."

And he extracted for them [the statue of] a calf which had a lowing sound, and they said, "This is your god and the god of Moses, but he forgot."

[Moses] said, "And what is your case, O Samiri?"

He said, "I saw what they did not see, so I took a handful [of dust] from the track of the messenger and threw it, and thus did my soul entice me."

So when we try to lean on our own understanding of certain commands, it can lead to us committing shirk and other types of sins even if we don't necessarily mean to do so. When you want to do something well, when you want to do something right, when you want to worship Allah(swt) in the right way, you learn from the best. That is why it is best to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as he was sent as a mercy to mankind.

And this is why Allah (swt) tells us in the Quran:

Surat Ar-Rūm (The Romans)
So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (30) [Adhere to it], turning in repentance to Him, and fear Him and establish prayer and do not be of those who associate others with Allah (31) [Or] of those who have divided their religion and become sects, every faction rejoicing in what it has. (32)

Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.


Perhaps a more knowledgeable member on this message board can explain it better for you than I have or correct or clarify anything I have written as I am still very much learning about this deen too.

May Allah have mercy on us and help us all worship Him in the right way. Ameeen.

[BadOlPuttyTat]

There is no compulsion in religion. True guidance has become distinct from error. But whoever disbelieves in false gods and believes in Allah has grasped the strong handle that will never break. And Allah is all-hearing, all-knowing.[2:256]


:hmm: Obviously you don't understand Quranism.

Quranists reject the authority of ALL hadith... there is nothing to corrupt and a Quranist has to accept the entire Quran we can't just pick and choose which verses to follow. The entire point of Quranism is to employ our own independent reasoning with regard to theological and authoritative issues. Nothing should be used alongside the verbatim word of Allah(Qu'ran).

Btw I have a good question for all of you claiming that Quranists don't know how to worship or pray: Did Yeshua have a Hadith to tell him how to pray to Allah? Or any other prophet before Muhammed for that matter?

Well you said the opposite of what i mentioned. The Quranist dont pick out verses from the Quran, they pick them out of the Haddith. This action contradicts their entire purpose :p

[Muhaba]

God's Final Prophet Muhammad S: said that he was leaving behind two things, the Quran and Sunnah (his application of the Quran, his way, his sayings and actions, etc) and so long as we held onto them, we wouldn't go astray.

so the sunnah is a necessary part of islam and we can't be true muslims if we don't follow it. Even in the Quran, we are told to obey and follow the Prophet S: . GOd says taht whatever the Prophet gave us, we should take and whatever he forbids us from, we should refrain from it. so how can we do that if we leave the sunnah?

if you are worried that there are incorrect hadith and you want to avoid following them, then you should learn the Quran well. if you have knowledge of the Quran,
you can tell which hadith are sound and which aren't. this is because the Quran is the criterion, as God Himself calls the Quran Criterion (a thing which helps you tell right from wrong) in chapter 25 Al-Furqan, verse 1.

The Sunnah is necessary to know how one should follow the Quran. The Quran can't be applied without the sunnah. not only are there things that can't be applied without an explanation, such as the prayer, but also it's possible to misinterpret a verse if it's not interpreted according to the sunnah.

it's important to stay away from interpretations of the Quran that aren't according to hadith/sunnah or those that go against the Sunnah as misinterpretations can make a person go astray. The Prophet S: said that whoever interprets the quran from their own selves has made a place for himself in the Fire. that means that interpretation of the Quran should be according to hadith and sunnah and the Quran must be followed according to the Sunnah. if one follows the Quran the way the Prophet S: applied it, they won't go astray. on the other hand, following the ordainments of the Quran without looking at how the Prophet S: applied it may make one go astray.

[Insaanah]

Greetings.

What is most people's actions to the "Quranist" movement?

We pray for their guidance.

Also, a more proper term might be hadeeth rejectors rather than Qur'anists, because in rejecting hadeeth they actually inadvertently cannot follow the command in the Qur'an to obey the Prophet (peace be upon him), and Allah's saying that the Prophet (peace be upon him) is the one to explain the book, and instead they follow what they personally think is the explanation.

Many Muslims dislike the corruption and false interpretations of Haddiths for specific gain that they decided to only follow the Quran and Quran only.

No, it's not many. Out of the millions or billions of Muslims worldwide, the amount that reject the hadeeth are relatively few. They are a new phenomenon from the last few centuries only, no such thing existed among the Prophet's companions their students and the righteous predecessors and for quite a while.

Its more of a "pure Islam" so i am told but it also creates issues since we all know not all doctrine is in the Quran itself.

It is not pure Islam. Following pure Islam is to follow it as the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions (may Allah be pleased with them) and the early generations understood, it, not a recently invented rejection of all the authentic records of the Prophet's sayings, actions and the example he set for us to follow.

I myself recall a Christian movement that didn't want to be influenced by un-knowledgeable Baptist/Protestant preachers, and they simply called themselves Christians to stop sects and influence.

The hadeeth are narrated by those who saw or heard the prophet (peace be upon him) say something. Their accounts are verified, each persons truthfulness, memory, character and accuracy are verified, and we know which people it was transmitted via. Anyone who is known to have lied even once in his lifetime, any hadeeth narrated from him are rejected. No other literature of the era is recorded with such accuracy. It is the highly righteous and knowledgeable scholars who have checked the hadeeth, and ensured that every small detail of the Prophets life is preserved for us to follow, rather than unknowledgeable preachers.

I understand people who don't want to read Haddiths since they wish not to be influenced by ideals and doctrine outside of the Quran but wouldn't that be a bit dumb?

Actually they are depriving themselves of the ideals and doctrine of the Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him), the one whom the Qur'an was revealed to, and the one to whom Allah revealed it's explanation, as Allah mentioned in the Qur'an:

"With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect. " (16:44)

That explanation of the Qur'an by the Prophet (peace be upon him) is recorded in the hadeeth. So where the command to pray is given, one will not find details of how many units for each prayer in the Qur'an. That is explained by the Prophet (peace be upon him) as taught by Allah, and the explanation preserved in the hadeeth. You can probably see the clear contradiction in terms here, saying in the shahaadah that you accept and bear witness that he's the messenger of Allah, but then rejecting what he said and did, even though Allah tells us that he is the example for us to follow:

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

This duty of the Prophet (peace be upon him) has been stated in 16:43-44 especially to show the wisdom of sending a man as a Messenger, for, otherwise the Book could have been sent through the angels or could have been printed and sent directly to each human. But in this way, that purpose for which Allah in His Wisdom and Bounty and Providence designed to send the Book could not have been served. For, that purpose demanded that the Book should be brought by a perfect man, who should present it piece by piece, explain its meaning, remove any difficulties and doubts, answer objections, and should guide those who believed in it in every aspect of life and set before them his own excellent pattern of life. Then he should train them individually and collectively on the principles of the Book; so as to make them a model society for the rest of mankind.

16:44 shows that the view that the Book should be accepted without any exposition of it from the Prophet (peace be upon him) and using one's own independent reasoning instead (see quote directly below), cannot be correct if Allah says that the Prophet is the teacher and explainer of the book.

The entire point of Quranism is to employ our own independent reasoning with regard to theological and authoritative issues. Nothing should be used alongside the verbatim word of Allah(Qu'ran).

Hopefully you can see my point.

The details of praying, worshiping and Hajj to my understanding are not fully explained in the Quran so wouldn't that be a big contradiction?

Yes. A few of us have asked hadeeth rejector members here as to how they know how many units for each prayer, but they're unable to tell us.

Shed some light on this for me people

In concluding, stay well away from quranism/hadeeth rejection. You have come this far on your quest, don't let yourself go down any other road now.

Peace.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

Did Yeshua have a Hadith to tell him how to pray to Allah? Or any other prophet before Muhammed for that matter?

The hadeeth are the records of the prophets sunnah; their sayings, actions etc, preserved for the followers. So Jesus (Isa, peace be upon him) had a sunnah that people should follow and so did the previous prophets. Their books have hardly survived, let alone any records of their sunnah, if any were ever preserved.

And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me.(43:63)

Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel... (57:27, part)

We know that Allah gave him the injeel, which was Allah's words, so obeying the Prophet meant listening to him explaining Allah's words, and following whatever else he commanded in respect to the deen as inspired by Allah. Christians say that they don't need to obey what Isa (alyhissalaam) himself did because he "fulfilled the covenant" thus saved them from having to follow it.

While the sunnahs of previous prophets have been corrupted and lost, the sunnah of our beloved prophet :saws: is preserved down to the minutest detail in the hadeeth, which is only proper if he is the last prophet, sent for the whole of mankind until the end of time, after whom no prophet will come. Therefore, it is vital that details of his life are preserved, and indeed they have been. Otherwise the verse telling us that we have in the Prophets example a beautiful pattern of conduct for us, is meaningless.

If a person believes that nothing other than the word of Allah is to be considered, and any explanation by the Prophet :saws: is invalid, or that all explanations by him cannot be relied upon wholesale, in essence this is implying that Allah, instead of sending His book through a Prophet, could have sent printed copies directly to each individual, if it's explanation by the Prophet :saws: was not necessary, and if each individual had to use his/her own personal reasoning as it's explanation. It's implying that if He knew with His knowledge of the future that the records of the prophets explanations would be wholesale rejected and classified as corrupt, then He got it all wrong by sending it through a prophet and asking the prophet to explain it for mankind. But Allah did not leave us to fumble in the dark making our our own explanations, he sent the book to a prophet, described in the Qur'an as a mercy for all mankind, and indeed was merciful to us in leaving us such a rich and detailed source of the explanation of the Qur'an, it exegesis, and in the Prophets character and practices, so that we can follow his example.

Otherwise, all we have to do is simply to affirm belief in, and testify that Muhammad :saws:was a prophet just like the previous prophets Musa, Isa, Nuh etc, but our relationship with him is nothing more than that of the former prophets. It is implying that we have no obligations to follow any of their patterns, for we have none with us.

Just some food for thought, which I hope you'll consider with an open mind. Remember a brother said in your other thread that one time you were skeptical of the Qur'an and now you believe in it, the same way may Allah guide you to the sunnah of our beloved Prophet :saws: who He sent for us, and for all the world, ameen.

I hope you found some of the sources left for you in that thread useful.

Peace.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

I'm just trying to demonstrate that the prophets before Muhammed didn't follow the rigid formula of orthodox Sunni prayer.

I don't know what you mean by rigid, but we try to follow the hadeeth that says, "pray as you have seen me praying," as he :saws: was the best teacher to teach how to pray. And that wasn't too far off his brothers in Prophethood, as Allah had taught them:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ml#post1461509

But alhamdulillah, for Muslims, the exact and minutest details of how to pray as taught to the Prophet :saws: by Allah, are preserved.

[Aprender]

What is most people's actions to the "Quranist" movement? Many Muslims dislike the corruption and false interpretations of Haddiths for specific gain that they decided to only follow the Quran and Quran only. Its more of a "pure Islam" so i am told but it also creates issues since we all know not all doctrine is in the Quran itself. I find this movement to be wise and somewhat dumb at the same time. I myself recall a Christian movement that didn't want to be influenced by un-knowledgeable Baptist/Protestant preachers, and they simply called themselves Christians to stop sects and influence. The Quranist's have a reputation for removing parts of Haddiths for their own benefit making a even more corrupted system sometimes and contradicting themselves. I understand people who don't want to read Haddiths since they wish not to be influenced by ideals and doctrine outside of the Quran but wouldn't that be a bit dumb? The details of praying, worshiping and Hajj to my understanding are not fully explained in the Quran so wouldn't that be a big contradiction? Shed some light on this for me people

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. [5:3]

Not Quranism or any other type of movement out there. Islam. Before I came to this way of life I didn't actually understand the hadith clearly as I wasn't exactly sure what they were. My experience with them was that even non-Muslims took them as valid and did not reject them because they used the false ones to try and make Islam out to be something bad or took them completely out of context with floating quotes to try and slander the religion.

But it is to my understanding that people who lived during the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would ask him questions regarding some of the revealed verses and he would answer those questions for them. When I first read the Quran the copy that I had didn't have any commentary going along with it. So when I would get to certain surahs I sometimes didn't know what was going on exactly. Like in Surah Abasa. I was actually a little confused with the beginning verses and I wanted more background information concerning the incident connected to it but how else would we get any of that background information if not for the hadith? Secondly, I didn't want to try and interpret the Quran on my own whim because
1.) I was merely reading an English translation of the Quran
2.) I do not know the classical Arabic language
3.) Languages evolve and meanings can change over time. Words that mean one thing today could have meant something completely different in another time period. That in and of itself is an easy way for interpretations of the text to be incorrect.

4.) There are anti-Muslim "translations" of the Quran out there. I came across many of them online when I decided I was ready to read the Quran and I finally ended up just going to the local masjid to get a more accurate translation. In 1689 a man named Maracci made a Latin translation of the Quran. He was dedicated to the Holy Roman Empire and specifically selected and misrepresented Arabic commentaries to make Islam look bad so that it would not be embraced in Europe. His translation to try and "refute" the Quran was later picked up and translated into English by other Christian clergymen. Obviously this worked because if the only type of English translation available out there showed Islam in a negative light by someone who was well respected and educated, those reading it would be significantly less likely to embrace the religion. You can find deviant translations and interpretations of the Quran like this today from people who hate the religion and are maliciously translating it based on their own independent thoughts and biases. And people unfortunately accept that negative image of Islam as truth astaghfirullah.

I don't see anything wrong with reading the Quran and pondering over the verses and trying to learn from them to apply to every day life but it would be mighty arrogant for someone like me who is still very much learning about the deen to try and interpret it in my own way and make it work in the way that I want to when we already had the example of what to do and how to carry ourselves as believers in the messengers (peace be upon them) that Allah (swt) sent throughout time. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) being the last and seal of them all.

[BadOlPuttyTat]

it's important to stay away from interpretations of the Quran that aren't according to hadith/sunnah or those that go against the Sunnah as misinterpretations can make a person go astray. The Prophet S: said that whoever interprets the quran from their own selves has made a place for himself in the Fire. that means that interpretation of the Quran should be according to hadith and sunnah and the Quran must be followed according to the Sunnah. if one follows the Quran the way the Prophet S: applied it, they won't go astray. on the other hand, following the ordainments of the Quran without looking at how the Prophet S: applied it may make one go astray.

I thought Haddith's were interpretations or part of them at least? Also wouldnt it be the other way around regarding the Quran. Shouldnt the Haddith/Sunnah follow the Quran not reverse? :? Its like looking for a definition then finding a word, most would view that as backwards.

[Hulk]

I thought Haddith's were interpretations or part of them at least? Also wouldnt it be the other way around regarding the Quran. Shouldnt the Haddith/Sunnah follow the Quran not reverse? Its like looking for a definition then finding a word, most would view that as backwards.

At first I didn't understand what you were saying then I checked writer's original post and saw that he did mention

if you are worried that there are incorrect hadith and you want to avoid following them, then you should learn the Quran well. if you have knowledge of the Quran,
you can tell which hadith are sound and which aren't. this is because the Quran is the criterion, as God Himself calls the Quran Criterion (a thing which helps you tell right from wrong) in chapter 25 Al-Furqan, verse 1.

I don't think "interpretation" is a good word to describe the Hadith in relation to the Quran even though we can find interpretations in the Hadith. Perhaps it is better described as "Additional info" that "coincides".

Generally, we look to tafsir for exegesis.

I think what writer described sounds a lot like scholarly work, as it's not that simple to be "knowledgable" in Quran. Even if you have read an english translation of the Quran (or even arabic) it doesn't make you "knowledgable" of the Quran.

I remember you mentioned that you are currently reading the Quran, I think by now you have come across a verse that says that there will be people who read the Quran and be guided and there will be people who read the Quran and get even more lost than before.

There is a lot of humility needed when approaching the Quran, even the second chapter begins with "Alif, Lam, Mim". If anything it should remind us that we are limited in your knowledge as we don't even know what it means.

Personally if someone is interested I would recommend the book here.

[M.I.A.]

im sure there is some truth in some hadith. if it is the majority or minority of them i do not know.

if they make sense to you and you can fit them within your knowledge of the religion then i guess they are acceptable.

but each person is of differing knowledge and views and application of knowledge and views.



the other end of the scale is those that take all as truth or reject all.

i would say taking all of them as truth is definitely the more risky.

after all the authenticity of the quran is not open for debate.


sure there is valid argument for following the sunna of the prophet pbuh but we do not have that first hand.. not that lucky im afraid.


i dont know how hadiths were recorded.

i know you can have a room full of people all listening to the same thing..and all hearing differently.

id still follow some hadith but id question and reflect on them much before putting them forward.

listened to too many sheiks im afraid.

[Muhaba]

At first I didn't understand what you were saying then I checked writer's original post and saw that he did mention


I don't think "interpretation" is a good word to describe the Hadith in relation to the Quran even though we can find interpretations in the Hadith. Perhaps it is better described as "Additional info" that "coincides".

Generally, we look to tafsir for exegesis.

I think what writer described sounds a lot like scholarly work, as it's not that simple to be "knowledgable" in Quran. Even if you have read an english translation of the Quran (or even arabic) it doesn't make you "knowledgable" of the Quran.

I remember you mentioned that you are currently reading the Quran, I think by now you have come across a verse that says that there will be people who read the Quran and be guided and there will be people who read the Quran and get even more lost than before.

There is a lot of humility needed when approaching the Quran, even the second chapter begins with "Alif, Lam, Mim". If anything it should remind us that we are limited in your knowledge as we don't even know what it means.

Personally if someone is interested I would recommend the book here.

It's true that reading just english translation isn't enough. you need a commentary to understand some parts of the Quran. for others, you need to know the period of revelation . not knowing period of revelation of some verses can make a person confused because the Quran was revealed according to different circumstances so it's important to know the circumstances to understant it. you also need to know how the Prophet S: interpreted and applied some verses as incorrect interpretation can mislead a person.

when studying the Quran , go for earlier commentaries that are according to interpretation of the Prophet S: and the companions , such as Ibn Kathir commentary. commentaries according to scholar's own interpretation should be avoided at the start.

One commentary I like best is Tafheem Ul Quran by Sayed Abu Al-Aala Maududi whose english transation is The Meaning Of Quran.

[MustafaMc]

Quranists reject the authority of ALL hadith

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be among the Hadith Rejectors (HR). For a HR what are the basic articles of faith and what are the pillars of Islam? The shahadah for Sunni Muslimis is, "There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad was His servant and messenger." I assume that you consider yourself a Muslim and that you accept this as the first pillar of Islam without which the others are meaningless. What does it mean to you that Muhammad (saaws) was the messenger of Allah (swt)?

[Muhaba]

I thought Haddith's were interpretations or part of them at least? Also wouldnt it be the other way around regarding the Quran. Shouldnt the Haddith/Sunnah follow the Quran not reverse? :? Its like looking for a definition then finding a word, most would view that as backwards.

I missed this post. and i don't think i understand what you mean.

The Quran was revealed according to circumstances, so you need to know the circumstances to understand it. you need to know the reason a verse was revealed. for example, there are verses in Surah Al-Ahzab about the Prophet's adopted son divorcing his wife and then God making the Prophet S: marry her. there's a whole story behind that which you need to know to understand.

the verses are:

33:1. O Prophet, fear Allah and do not obey the disbelievers and the hypocrites. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

33:2
And follow that which is revealed to you from your Lord. Indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.

33:3
And rely upon Allah ; and sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

33:4
Allah has not made for a man two hearts in his interior. And He has not made your wives whom you declare unlawful your mothers. And he has not made your adopted sons your [true] sons. That is [merely] your saying by your mouths, but Allah says the truth, and He guides to the [right] way.
33:5
Call them by [the names of] their fathers; it is more just in the sight of Allah . But if you do not know their fathers - then they are [still] your brothers in religion and those entrusted to you. And there is no blame upon you for that in which you have erred but [only for] what your hearts intended. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

...

33: 36. It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.

33:37. And [remember, O Muhammad], when you said to the one on whom Allah bestowed favor and you bestowed favor, "Keep your wife and fear Allah ," while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him. So when Zayd had no longer any need for her, We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them. And ever is the command of Allah accomplished.

33: 38. There is not to be upon the Prophet any discomfort concerning that which Allah has imposed upon him. [This is] the established way of Allah with those [prophets] who have passed on before. And ever is the command of Allah a destiny decreed.

33:39
[ Allah praises] those who convey the messages of Allah and fear Him and do not fear anyone but Allah . And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.

33:40
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.


For understanding these verses, one should know the cause of revelation, which is summarized as follows: There was a tradition in the arab world that the adopted son was regarded just like a real son, the adopted son inherited the foster father and the foster father inherited him and the adopted son's divorced or widowed wife was unlawful for the foster father just as the real son's wife is unlawful. but this tradition was unislamic and God Almighty wanted to remove it, and this was done through the marriage of Zayd Bin Harith (R), the adopted son of the Prophet S: . Zayd had been the slave of the PRophet's first wife. She had given him to the Prophet and the Prophet S: had freed him and made him his adopted son. Later, the Prophet tried to get Zayd married to Zaynab (R), cousin of the Prophet S:, but she didn't want to marry him because he had been a slave. since Allah wanted to remove the custom of not marrying adopted son's ex-wives, Allah revealed the verses:
It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.

so Zaynab (R) and her family relented and accepted and Zaynab was married to Zayd. but the marriage didn't last and finally Zaid Bin Harith divorced her, although the PRophet S: tried hard to keep him from divorcing her (because he had known in his heart that if Zaid divorced her, the Prophet would have to marry her and he was worried about what people would say about islam since according to the pagan arab tradition, marrying an adopted son's wife was unacceptable). After Zaynab was divorced and her waiting period had ended, God ordered the Prophet S: to marry her and the two were married and the wrong arab custom was removed.

all this story is in the hadith and one needs to know it to understand the verses. Knowing the story behind the revelation of verses also makes the reading of the Quran more enjoyable.

it's also necessary to know how the commandments in the verses were applied by the Prophet S: and by the Companions after him. all that is in the hadith, islamic history, life of the Prophet S: books, etc which every muslim should study from early age.

[MissK]

If Quranists have no leg on which to stand, please explain these verses.

[The Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution."

We know (and anyone can find) that there are hadith which contradict other hadith. This only implies that even these sahih authentic, which many Muslims follow, must be fabricated.

“[The Quran 45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?"


[The Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt."

[جوري]

If Quranists have no leg on which to stand, please explain these verses.

[The Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadith, and thus divert others from the path of GOD without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution."

We know (and anyone can find) that there are hadith which contradict other hadith. This only implies that even these sahih authentic, which many Muslims follow, must be fabricated.

“[The Quran 45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?"


[The Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt."

The problem is that you have no understanding of the etymology of the word nor its context.

Let me give an example..
when I use the word Reed- do I intend to say:

a : any of various tall grasses with slender often prominently jointed stems that grow especially in wet areas
or

c : a person or thing too weak to rely on : one easily swayed or overcome

or
: a wind instrument made from the hollow joint of a plant

or
: an ancient Hebrew unit of length equal to six cubits

or
a : a thin elastic tongue (as of cane, wood, metal, or plastic) fastened at one end over an air opening in a wind instrument (as a clarinet, organ pipe, or accordion) and set in vibration by an air current
b : a woodwind instrument that produces sound by the vibrating of a reed against the mouthpiece <the reeds of an orchestra>
or
: a device on a loom resembling a comb and used to space warp yarns evenly

Which one of these do you think is the correct meaning? Should one not take the sentence in context? You've shown and repeatedly total lack of understanding of the noble Quran. The first verse that you've used can easily be applied to you or an atheist who engages in worthless vain discourse to divert people from the true understanding of the Quran



the second verse you quoted is also fully explained. I'd be a bit more forgiving if we didn't have exegesis and scholarship and thus must leave everything rendered to the least learned amongst us for interpretation but there's absolutely no excuse, while we've tafsir al jalalyen, and ibn kathir and tons of scholars across the ages breaking it down for lay people.

Here's baheth al arabi - if you've no desire to understand the Quran itself at least understand Arabic so when you apply it you've proper application and not one borne of your imagination!

http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=...AF%D9%8A%D8%AB

best,

الأَعرابي: بالحَدَثانِ، وفسره، فقال: ِْذا أَصابه حَدَثانُ الدَّهْرِ من مَصائِبه ومَرارِئه، أَلْهَتْه بدَلِّها وحَدِيثها عن ذلك وقوله تعالى: إِن لم يُؤْمِنوا بهذا الحديث أَسَفاً؛ عنى بالحديث القرآن؛ عن الزجاج.
والحديثُ ما يُحَدِّثُ به المُحَدِّثُ تَحْديثاً؛ وقد حَدَّثه الحديثَ وحَدَّثَه به. الجوهري: المُحادثة والتَّحادُث والتَّحَدُّثُ والتَّحْديثُ: معروفات. ابن سيده: وقول سيبويه في تعليل قولهم: لا تأْتيني فتُحَدِّثَني، قال: كأَنك قلت ليس يكونُ منك إِتيانٌ فحديثٌ، غِنما أَراد فتَحْديثٌ، فوَضَع الاسم موضع المصدر، لأَن مصدر حَدَّث إِنما هو التحديثُ، فأَما الحديثُ فليس بمصدر.
وقوله تعالى: وأَما بنِعْمةِ ربك فَحَدِّثْ؛ أَي بَلِّغْ ما أُرْسِلْتَ به، وحَدِّث بالنبوّة التي آتاك اللهُ، وهي أَجلُّ النِّعَم.
وسمعت حِدِّيثى حَسنَةً، مثل خِطِّيبيى، أَي حَديثاً.
والأُحْدُوثةُ ما حُدِّثَ به. الجوهري: قال الفراءُ: نُرى أَن واحد الأَحاديث أُحْدُوثة، ثم جعلوه جمعاً للحَديث؛ قال ابن بري: ليس الأَمر كما زعم الفراءُ، لأَن الأُحْدُوثةَ بمعنى الأُعْجوبة، يقال: قد صار فلانٌ أُحْدُوثةً. فأَما أَحاديث النبي، صلى الله عليه وسلم، فلا يكون واحدها إِلا حَديثاً، ولا يكون أُحْدوثةً، قال: وكذلك ذكره سيبويه في باب ما جاءَ جمعه على غير واحده المستعمل، كعَرُوض وأَعاريضَ، وباطل وأَباطِيل.

[Muhaba]

(31:6) There are some human beings *5 who purchase an enchanting diversion *6 in order to lead people away from the way of Allah without having any knowledge, *7 who hold the call to the Way of Allah to ridicule. *8 A humiliating chastisement awaits them. *9

*5 That is, "On the one hand, there is this Mercy and Guidance sent down by Allah, of which some people are taking full advantage, and on the other, there are also some unfortunate people living side by side with the fortunate ones, who are adopting this sort of attitude as against the Revelations of Allah. "

*6 The words lahv al-hadith in the Text imply such a thing as may allure and absorb a listener completely and make him heedless of everything else around him. Lexically, there is nothing derogatory in these words, but in custom and usage they apply to evil and useless and vain things, such as gossip, nonsensical talk, joking and jesting, legends and tales, singing and merry-making, etc.

"To buy" alluring tales may also mean that the person concerned adopts falsehood instead of the Truth, turns away from the guidance and turns to those things which can neither benefit him in the world nor in the Hereafter. But this is the metaphorical meaning. The real meaning of the sentence is that a person should purchase an absurd and useless thing for his money, and this is supported by many traditions. Ibn Hisham has related on the authority of Ibn Ishaq that when the disbelievers of Makkah could not stop the message of the Holy Prophet from spreading in spite of their best efforts, Nadr bin Harith said to the people of Quraish: "The way you are counteracting this man will avail you nothing. He has lived a lifetime among you. Until now he was the best of your men morally: he was the most truthful and the most trustworthy person among you. Now you say that he is a sorcerer and enchanter and a poet and a madman. Who will believe all this? Don't the people know the way the sorcerers talk? Don't they know the enchanters and the way they conduct their business? Are they unaware of poetry and of the states of madness? Which of these accusations sticks to Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace) by exploiting which you would turn the people's attention away from him? Look! I will tell you how to deal with him." Then he left Makkah for Iraq and managed to get from there legends and tales about the kings of Iran and Rustam and Isfandyar and started to arrange tale-telling parties to distract the people from the Qur'an and to absorb them in the tales. (Ibn Hisham. vol. I, pp. 320-321). The same tradition has been cited by Vahidi in Asbab un Nazul on the authority of Kalbi and Muqatil. And according to Ibn 'Abbas, Nadr had bough singing girls also for the purpose. Whenever he heard that someone was coming under the Holy Prophet's influence, he would impose a singing girl an him with the instruction: "Feed him and entertain him with your songs so that he is absorbed in you and distracted from the other side." This was the same device which the arch-criminals of the nations have been employing in every age. They try to get the common people so absorbed in fun and sport and musical entertainment's in the name of culture that they are left with no time and sense to attend to the serious problems of life, and in their heedlessness they do not even feel what destruction they are being driven to.

The same commentary of lahv al-hadith has been reported from a large number of the Companions and their immediate followers. 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud was asked, 'What does lahv al-hadith mean in this verse ?" He said thrice emphatically. 'By God! it means singing." (Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Shaibah. Hakim, Baihaqi). Similar traditions have been reported from scholars like 'Abdullah bin' Abbas, Jabir bin 'Abdullah, Mujahid, 'Ikrimah, Said bin Jubair, Hasan Basri: and Makhul. Ibn Jarir, Ibn Abi Hatim and Tirmidhi have related on the authority of Hadrat Abu Umamah Baheli that the Holy Prophet said, "It is not lawful to buy and sell and trade in singing girls nor is it lawful to take their price." In another tradition, the last sentence is to the effect: ... it is unlawful to eat their price" . Yet another tradition from Abu Umamah is to the effect: To teach music to slave-girls and to trade in them is not lawful and their price is forbidden." All these Ahadith also elucidate that the verse containing lahv al-hadith was sent down in this very connection. Qadi Abu Bakr Ibn al-'Arabi has related in the Ahkam alQur'an a Hadith from Hadrat 'Abdullah bin Mubarak and Imam Malik on the authority of Hadrat Anas, saying, that the Holy Prophet said: 'He who hears the song of a singing-girl in a musical concert, will have molten lead poured into his ear on the Day of Judgement" (In this connection, one should also note that the culture" of music in those days flourished almost entirely through the slave-girls: Free women had not yet become "artists" . That is why the Holy Prophet spoke about trading in slave-girls, and described their wages and earnings as their price. and used the word qaynah for the singing-girl, which is specifically used for a slave-girl in Arabic).

*7 "Without any knowledge" may be connected with "buys" and also "lead...astray". In the first case, it would mean: 'The ignorant foolish person buys this alluring thing and does not know that he is buying a ruinous thing at the cost of a highly valuable thing. On the one hand, there are the Divine verses which are full of wisdom and guidance, which he can obtain without any cost, but he turns away from them. On the other, there are these absurd things, which are disastrous for his morals and he is expending his wealth to obtain them. " In the second case, it would mean: "He has come out to guide the people without any knowledge: he does not know what burden of sin he is taking on himself by trying to lead the people astray from Allah's Way."

*8 That is, This person wants to make fun of the Divine Revelations by alluring and absorbing the people in legends and tales and music. He intends that the invitation of the Qur'an should be derided and ridiculed and laughed away. He plans to fight the Religion of God with the strategy that as soon as Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace) should come out to recite Revelations of God to the people, there should be a charming, sweet-voiced damsel giving her performance in a musical concert on the one hand, and a glib-tongued story teller telling tales and legends of Iran, on the other, and the people should become so absorbed in these cultural activities" that they may not be in a mood to hear anything about God and the morals and the Hereafter. "

*9 This punishment will be in accordance with their crime. They want to debase and disgrace God's Religion, His Revelations and His Messenger; God will rake His vengeance on them by giving them a disgraceful torment.

Commentary of chapter 31, verse 6, from TAFHEEM-UL-QURAN, one of the best contemporary commentaries of the Quran, by SAYYAD ABU AL-ALA MAUDUDI, reknowned scholar of Islam, http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html

[MissK]

(6:114) Shall I look upon anyone apart from Allah for judgement when it is He Who has revealed to you the Book in detail? *81 And those whom We gave the Book (before you) know that this (Book) has been revealed in truth by your Lord. Do not, then, be among the doubters. *82
*81. The implied speaker in this sentence is the Prophet (peace be on him) and the words are addressed to the Muslims. The purpose of the sentence is to impress upon the Muslims that God has elucidated the relevant truths, and has also proclaimed that in their endeavour to make the Truth prevail they will have to follow the path of striving and struggle. The devotees of the Truth should, therefore, resort to those means which human beings normally employ for the successful achievement of their objectives rather than wait for any supernatural intervention that would enable them to achieve their mission without struggle and sacrifice. Moreover, since God Himself had chosen that human effort rather than supernatural intervention should lead to the prevalence of the Truth, who had the power to change this basic fact and bring about the victory of the Truth without any resort to human effort and sacrifice.
*82. This is no mere concoction designed to explain away the current problems. All those versed in the Scriptures, and possessing true understanding of the mission of the Prophets (peace be on them all), will confirm that everything in the Qur'an is perfectly true and in fact constitutes that eternal truth which cannot suffer any change or modification.


Thanks for that website and that explanation of the verses. I really like it and am finding it useful. I pulled the above quote from the same site, but I can't post the link right now as i'm not a full member.

Here is what I don't understand and what I assume Quranists don't understand.

The explanation of the above verse from the Quran (which I also quoted in another post with a different translation) says that the Truth has been clearly elucidated. The other translation says that it has been made simple for us.

If it has been made clear (or simple), then why is the hadith needed to clarify or expand on it?

Furthermore, if God wants us to follow something, why leave it in the hands of man as has happened with hadith?

By following the hadith and sunna as a source of LAW, are we not placing our belief, our trust, and therefore our faith in man as they are the ones who have recorded this (long after it occured) and are now interpreting it for us? It wasn't divinely revealed to them as was the Qur'an to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).

And again, concerning the promise to preserve it. How is the preservation of Sunna and Hadith promised? I know (first hand) that Arabs have an amazing ability to memorize things and it is part of their culture and tradition, but the length of time between when the words were said and when they were finally recorded truly concerns me.

I know people don't like me asking these questions but to be honest, they REALLY bother me. One of the reasons that I always questioned the Bible was because of the corruption that we know has taken place in it. I believe in the Quran wholeheartedly, so it's hard for me to refer back to the Hadith and Sunna without questioning them and their authenticity. Really, if you have any useful links that answer some of these questions, i'd be happy to read them.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

It wasn't divinely revealed to them as was the Qur'an to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).

...And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. (2:143, part)
We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.(2:144)

These verses are in reference to the Muslims facing Jerusalem before the direction of the prayer was changed to Makkah. Allah explicitly states that it was He that appointed that original direction of prayer. However this inspiration and command to the Prophet :saws: to face Jerusalem never formed part of the Qur'an. Hence this shows that the Prophet :saws: received another type of revelation from Allah, that was binding on him and his followers.

And do not pray [the funeral prayer, O Muhammad], over any of them who has died - ever - or stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient. (9:84)

This verse shows us that funeral prayers had already begun to be performed and that the Prophet :saws: used to offer prayers at the burial of the dead before this verse was revealed. Yet there is no verse in the Qur'an that orders the Prophet :saws: and the Muslims to pray specific funeral prayers over the dead. It must be conceded, that the command for the funeral prayer was given through the sunnah, and that command was binding on him and his followers.

These verses also show, that what the Prophet :saws: established as part of the religion, is approved by Allah. Nowhere in the Qur'an can one find any type of censure or rebuke or correction of the Prophet :saws: for establishing facts that are not in the Qur'an. If the Prophet :saws: , whose message and teachings are for everyone until the Day of Judgement, made any statement or established any practice that should not form part of the religion, one would expect that Allah would have clearly and unequivocally demonstrated that such practices do not form part of the religion, or that the Prophet :saws: does not have the right to establish any practice in the religion outside of the Qur'an. But one cannot find anything of that nature. Indeed, you can only find the opposite: approval or acceptance of what the Messenger of Allah established, in addition to the numerous verses ordering Muslims to accept and follow whatever the Prophet :saws: instructs them to do. If these practices of the Prophet :saws: are ordered/approved/accepted by Allah, and Allah commands us to follow them, then Muslims cannot reject them.

Presumably you accept this, but aren't sure about how the sunnah was recorded in the hadeeth, it's preservation and authenticity?

The explanation of the above verse from the Quran (which I also quoted in another post with a different translation) says that the Truth has been clearly elucidated. The other translation says that it has been made simple for us.

If it has been made clear (or simple), then why is the hadith needed to clarify or expand on it?

[/B][The Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt."

There are other similar verses used by those who harbour doubts about the hadeeth, to imply that anything other than the Qur'an is not meant to be followed by Muslims, because the Qur'an is a clear fully detailed explanation of everything, thus nothing else is needed, and if it is, that would imply something is missing from the Qur'an, thus contradicting those verses. Therefore, according to the Qur'an, anything other than the Qur'an should not be followed.

For example, in 6:38:

There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered.

One interpretation is that the Book here is not in reference to the Qur'an but the preserved tablet that has recorded on it everything that will occur up until the Day of Judgement. This is similar to Surah Hood, ayah 6.

If one takes the Book to refer to the Qur'an, this does not imply that the sunnah is not an authority and obligatory upon Muslims to follow. As we all know, the details concerning the prayer, zakat, fasts etc are not all spelled out, detailed, or explained in the Qur'an. So, in order for this interpretation to be accurate, given the reality of the situation, it must mean the following as ibn al-Jawzi explained it: "It is a general statement that has a particular intent behind it. The meaning therefore is: We have not omitted anything which you would be in need of except that it has been made clear in the book, either by clear text, undetailed statement, or indication." In other words, everything is mentioned in the Book, in either direct detail, or by reference to the source where the necessary detail can be found. Hence the Book itself does not contain details of the prayers, fasts and so forth, but the Book points the believer to where those details can be found: the sunnah of the Prophet :saws:. When understood in this manner, such verses are not an argument against the authority of the sunnah (or hadeeth).

Clearly Allah does not spell out all the details of worship, law and life in the Qur'an itself. Instead, the Qur'an points the believer to all that is needed to be truly guided. Included in this is the sunnah itself as well as other aspects such as contemplating creation and so forth. The Qur'an clarifies all that is needed in one's life and part of what is needed in one's life is adherence to the sunnah of the messenger of Allah :saws:. The Book itself makes this fact abundantly clear with it's numerous verses containing the command to obey the Prophet :saws:

[Perseveranze]

(6:114) Shall I look upon anyone apart from Allah for judgement when it is He Who has revealed to you the Book in detail? *81 And those whom We gave the Book (before you) know that this (Book) has been revealed in truth by your Lord. Do not, then, be among the doubters. *82
*81. The implied speaker in this sentence is the Prophet (peace be on him) and the words are addressed to the Muslims. The purpose of the sentence is to impress upon the Muslims that God has elucidated the relevant truths, and has also proclaimed that in their endeavour to make the Truth prevail they will have to follow the path of striving and struggle. The devotees of the Truth should, therefore, resort to those means which human beings normally employ for the successful achievement of their objectives rather than wait for any supernatural intervention that would enable them to achieve their mission without struggle and sacrifice. Moreover, since God Himself had chosen that human effort rather than supernatural intervention should lead to the prevalence of the Truth, who had the power to change this basic fact and bring about the victory of the Truth without any resort to human effort and sacrifice.
*82. This is no mere concoction designed to explain away the current problems. All those versed in the Scriptures, and possessing true understanding of the mission of the Prophets (peace be on them all), will confirm that everything in the Qur'an is perfectly true and in fact constitutes that eternal truth which cannot suffer any change or modification.


Thanks for that website and that explanation of the verses. I really like it and am finding it useful. I pulled the above quote from the same site, but I can't post the link right now as i'm not a full member.

Here is what I don't understand and what I assume Quranists don't understand.

The explanation of the above verse from the Quran (which I also quoted in another post with a different translation) says that the Truth has been clearly elucidated. The other translation says that it has been made simple for us.

If it has been made clear (or simple), then why is the hadith needed to clarify or expand on it?

Furthermore, if God wants us to follow something, why leave it in the hands of man as has happened with hadith?

By following the hadith and sunna as a source of LAW, are we not placing our belief, our trust, and therefore our faith in man as they are the ones who have recorded this (long after it occured) and are now interpreting it for us? It wasn't divinely revealed to them as was the Qur'an to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).

And again, concerning the promise to preserve it. How is the preservation of Sunna and Hadith promised? I know (first hand) that Arabs have an amazing ability to memorize things and it is part of their culture and tradition, but the length of time between when the words were said and when they were finally recorded truly concerns me.

I know people don't like me asking these questions but to be honest, they REALLY bother me. One of the reasons that I always questioned the Bible was because of the corruption that we know has taken place in it. I believe in the Quran wholeheartedly, so it's hard for me to refer back to the Hadith and Sunna without questioning them and their authenticity. Really, if you have any useful links that answer some of these questions, i'd be happy to read them.

Asalaamu Alaikum,

At the moment, I'm kinda busy with assignments etc. But this Monday I'll reply to your questions, especially in regards to hadiths. Hadiths, and its sciences is truly one of the most fascinating topics in Islam, it's one of those things that you have to see it to believe it to truly know that this could only be the work and decree of the Creator.

As Jonathan Brown, one of the leading Western Scholars on Hadith literature (who also reverted to Islam after studying hadiths) said;

“I have never been more impressed with anybody in history in my life than with Muslim ḥadīth scholars. I mean, when I first started studying ḥadīth I was very skeptical, I thought it was all made-up and bogus but the more you study it the more you just appreciate the intense brain power of these people. I mean they memorized thousands and thousands of books and then they were able to recall all the different versions of ḥadīth from these books, and then they were able to analyze them and put them all together and figure-out where they all connect and make judgments about the authenticity of these ḥadīth. I mean even nowadays with electronic databases, and computers and word processing, I have hard time following even their discussions of the ḥadīth - let alone their original mastering that they were drawing on. It's almost unbelievable... It's almost unbelievable, and if you didn't have the books in front of you that they wrote, I wouldn't believe it personally....” - Dr. Jonathan Brown

And trust me, it wasn't just the amazing memory, it was the honesty, the dedication and the commitment to preserve the words of the Prophet Muhammad(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). No religion in history has been critical of their literature like the Islamic Hadith scholars would be in deriving the authentic hadiths from the unauthentic ones.

Insha'allah this monday when I get time, I will briefly post why and give you good recommendations to further delve into an excellent topic.