/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Shaking Hands!



biz
05-14-2012, 03:52 PM
Please read following. And discuss this subject please i found it in another thread.



Shaking hands with a non-Mahram: Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi


Is it proven in the Glorious Qur’an or the Sunnah that shaking hands with women is totally prohibited within the social and family relations when there is trust and no fear of temptation?

The Answer:

There is no doubt that shaking hands between males and females who are not mahrams (illegal for marriage) has become an intricate issue. Reaching an Islamic verdict on this issue away from extremism and dispensation needs a psychological, intellectual, and scientific effort so that the Mufti gets rid of the pressure of all imported and inherited customs unless they are based on the textual proofs of the Qur’an or the Sunnah.

Before tackling the issue in point, I would like to exclude two points on which I know there is agreement among the Muslim jurists of the righteous predecessors.

Firstly, it is prohibited to shake hands with a woman if there is fear of provoking sexual desire or enjoyment on the part of either one of them or if there is fear of temptation. This is based on the general rule that blocking the means to evil is obligatory, especially if its signs are clear. This ruling is ascertained in the light of what has been mentioned by Muslim jurists that a man touching one of his mahrams or having khalwah (privacy) with her moves to the prohibited, although it is originally permissible, if there is fear of fitnah (temptation) or provocation of desire.

Secondly, there is a dispensation in shaking hands with old women concerning whom there is no fear of desire. The same applies to the young girl concerning whom there is no fear of desire or temptation. The same ruling applies if the person is an old man concerning whom there is no fear of desire. This is based on what has been narrated on the authority of Abu Bakr As-Siddiq (may Allah be pleased with him) that he used to shake hands with old women. Also, it is reported that `Abdullah ibn Az-Zubair hired an old woman to nurse him when he was sick, and she used to wink at him and pick lice from his head. This is also based on what has been mentioned in the Glorious Qur’an in respect of the old barren women, as they are given dispensation with regard to their outer garments. Almighty Allah says in this regard: “As for women past child bearing, who have no hope of marriage, it is no sin for them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show adornment. But to refrain is better for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower.” (An-Nur: 60)

Allah explains that there is no sin on the old barren women if they decide to remove their outer garments from their faces and such, so long as they do not do it in a manner in which they would be exposing their beauty wrongly.

Here the object of discussion deals with other than these two cases. There is no surprise that shaking hands with women is haram (unlawful) according to the viewpoint of those who hold that covering all of the woman’s body, including her face and the two hands, is obligatory. This is because if it becomes obligatory to cover the two hands, then it would become haram for the opposite sex to look at them. And, if looking at them is unlawful, then touching them would become haram with greater reason because touching is graver than looking, as it provokes desire more.

But it is known that the proponents of this view are the minority, while the majority of Muslim jurists, including the Companions, the Successors and those who followed them, are of the opinion that the face and the hands are excluded from the prohibition. They based their opinion on Almighty Allah’s saying, “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent …” (An-Nur: 31) So where is the evidence on prohibiting handshaking unless there is desire?

In fact, I searched for a persuasive and textual proof supporting the prohibition but I did not find it. As a matter of fact, the most powerful evidence here is blocking the means to temptation, and this is no doubt acceptable when the desire is roused or there is fear of temptation because its signs exist. But when there is no fear of temptation or desire, what is the reason for prohibition?

Some scholars based their ruling on the action of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) on the day of the Conquest of Makkah. When he wanted to take the pledge of women he said to them, “Go, for you have given your oath of allegiance.” But it is known that the Prophet’s leaving a matter does not necessarily indicate its prohibition, as he may leave it because it is haram (forbidden), makruh (reprehensible), or because it is not preferable. He may also leave it just because he is not inclined to it. An example of this last is the Prophet’s refraining from eating the meat of the lizard although it is permissible. Then, the Prophet’s refraining from shaking hands with women (other than his wives) is not evidence of the prohibition, and there should be other evidence to support the opinion of those who make shaking hands absolutely prohibited.

However, it is not agreed upon that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refrained from shaking hands with women to take their oath of allegiance. Umm `Atiyyah Al-Ansariyyah (may Allah be pleased with her) reported another narrative that indicates that the Prophet shook hands with women to take their oath of allegiance. This is unlike the narration of the Mother of the Believers `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) who denied this and swore that it had not happened.

It is narrated that `A’ishah, the wife of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), said, “When the believing women migrated to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), they would be tested in accordance with the words of Allah, ‘O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe nothing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.’ (Al-Mumtahanah: 12)” `A’ishah said, “Whoever among the believing women agreed to that passed the test, and when the women agreed to that, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said to them, ‘Go, for you have given your oath of allegiance.’ No, by Allah, the hand of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) never touched the hand of any woman, rather they would give their oath of allegiance with words only.” And `A’ishah said, “By Allah, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) only took the oath of allegiance from the women in the manner prescribed by Allah, and the hand of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) never touched the hand of any woman. When he had taken their oath of allegiance he would say, ‘I have accepted your oath of allegiance verbally.’” (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

In his explanation of the saying of `A’ishah, “No, by Allah, the hand of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) never touched the hand of any woman …” Al-Hafizh Ibn Hajar said: she swore to ascertain the news as if she (`A’ishah) wanted to refute the narration of Umm `Atiyyah. It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Hibban, Al-Bazzar, Al-Tabari, and Ibn Mardawih that Umm `Atiyyah said in respect of the story of taking the oath of allegiance of women, “The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) held out his hand from outside the house and we (the immigrating women) held our hands from within the house, then he said, ‘O Allah, bear witness.’” In another narration reported by Al-Bukhari, Umm `Atiyyah said, “… thereupon a lady withdrew her hand (refrained from taking the oath of allegiance)…” This narration indicates that they (the immigrating women) took their oath of allegiance by shaking hands. Al-Hafizh said: we reply to the first saying that holding out hands from behind a veil is an indication of the acceptance of the allegiance even if there was no shaking of hands. As for the second narration, withdrawing hands indicates the postponement of accepting the pledge of allegiance or that taking the pledge of allegiance happened from behind a veil. This is supported by that narration of Abu Dawud on the authority of Al-Sha`bi that when the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) wanted to take the pledge of allegiance of the immigrating women he brought a garment and put it over his hands saying, “I do not shake hands with women.” Furthermore, in his book Maghazi, Ibn Is-haq is reported to have said that when the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) wanted to take the pledge of allegiance of the immigrating women, he would dip his hands in a vessel and a woman would dip her hands with him in the same vessel.

Al-Hafizh Ibn Hajar said: it is possible that taking the pledge of allegiance happened on more than one occasion. Sometimes, it happened without touching hands by any means, as narrated by `A’ishah. Another time it happened that the women’s oath of allegiance was accepted by shaking their hands with the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), as narrated by Al-Sha`bi. A third time it happened that they dipped their hands in the vessel as mentioned by Ibn Is-haq.

The most correct view seems to be that it occurred on more than one occasion, if we realize that `A’ishah talked about taking the pledge of allegiance from the immigrating women after the Truce of Al-Hudaibiyah, while Umm `Atiyyah talked about what seems to be the oath of allegiance of the believing women in general.

By transmitting these narrations, I mean to clarify that the evidence of those who are of the opinion that shaking hands with women is prohibited is not agreed upon, as is thought by those who do not resort to the original sources. Rather, there is some controversy concerning this evidence.

Furthermore, some contemporary Muslim scholars have based their ruling concerning the prohibition of shaking hands with women on the Hadith narrated by Al-Tabari and Al-Baihaqi on the authority of Ma`qil ibn Yassar that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “It would be better for one of you to have himself stabbed on the head with an iron needle than to touch a woman that is illegal for him.”

Here, the following should be noted:

1. The scholars and Imams of Hadith have not declared the authenticity of this Hadith. Some of them say that its narrators are trustworthy, but this is not enough to prove the authenticity of the Hadith because there is a probability that there is an interruption in the chain of narrators or there was a hidden cause behind this Hadith. That is why Muslim jurists in the periods that followed the death of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) have not based their ruling on the prohibition of shaking hands with women on this Hadith.

2. Some Hanafi and Maliki jurists stated that the prohibition is not proven unless there is a certain qat`i (definitive) piece of evidence such as textual proofs from the Glorious Qur’an or authentic Hadiths on which there is no suspicion regarding the chains of narrators.

3. If we suppose that the above-mentioned Hadith is authentic, it is unclear to me that the Hadith indicates that it is prohibited for males and females who are not mahrams to shake hands. That is because the phrase “touch a woman that is illegal for him” does not refer to the mere touching without desire as happens in normal handshaking. But the Arabic word “al-mass” (touching) as used in the Shar`i texts of the Qur’an and the Sunnah refers to one of two things:

1. Sexual intercourse, as reported by Ibn `Abbas in his commentary to Almighty Allah’s saying, ‘… or ye have touched women …’. He stated that “touching” in the Qur’an refers figuratively to sexual intercourse. This is clear in the following Qur’anic verses that read: “She (Mary) said: ‘My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me?’” (Al `Imran: 47) and “If ye divorce them before ye have touched them …” (Al-Baqarah: 237)

2. Actions that precede sexual intercourse such as foreplay, kissing, hugging, caressing, and the like. This is reported from our righteous predecessors in the interpretation of the word “mulamasah”.

Al-Hakim stated in his Al-Mustadrak `Ala as-Sahihain: Al-Bukhari and Muslim have narrated many Hadiths that show that the meaning of the word “lams” (touching) refers to actions that precede sexual intercourse. Among them are:

a) The Hadith narrated by Abu Hurairah that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “…The hands fornicate. Their fornication is the touch …”

b) The Hadith narrated by Ibn `Abbas that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “You might caress her.”

c) The Hadith narrated by Muslim that Ibn Mas`ud is reported to have said that a person came to Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) and told him that he had kissed a woman or touched her with his hand or did something like this. He inquired of him about its expiation. It was (on this occasion) that Allah, Glorified and Exalted be He, revealed this Qur’anic verse that reads “Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill deeds …” (Hud: 114)

d) `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) is reported to have said, “The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) used to visit us (his wives) and it was his habit to kiss and caress us and do actions other than sexual intercourse until he reached the one whose turn was due and he stayed there.”

e) `Abdullah ibn Mas`ud is reported to have said in his commentary to Almighty Allah’s saying, “… or ye have touched women, …” that it refers to actions that precede sexual intercourse for which ablution is obligatory.

f) `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said, “Kissing is to be considered among the touching acts, so perform ablution if you do.” (Al-Mustadrak, vol. 1, p. 135)

Hence, the opinion of Imam Malik and the substantial meaning of the legal verdict issued by Imam Ahmad in this respect are that the touching of a woman that nullifies ablution is that which is accompanied by desire. And this is the way they interpreted Almighty Allah’s saying, “… or ye have touched women, …”

That is why Sheikh Al-Islam Ibn Taimiyah regarded as weak the opinion of those who interpreted “mulamasah” or (touching) in the Qur’anic verse to mean mere touching without desire. In this regard, he says, “As for the nullification of ablution with mere touching, it does agree with the original rulings of the Shari`ah, the unanimous agreement of the Companions and the traceable traditions reported in this respect. Moreover, those who held this opinion have not based their ruling on a textual proof or an analogical deduction.”

So, if “touching” in Almighty Allah’s saying “… or ye have touched women, …” refers to touching with hands, kissing or the like, as said by Ibn `Umar and others, then it is known that when “touching” is mentioned in the Qur’an or the Sunnah it refers to that which is accompanied by desire. We would like to cite here the following verse that reads, “… and touch them not, while ye are in retreat in the mosques …” Here, it is not prohibited for the one who retreats to the mosque for devotion and worship to touch his wife without desire, but touching that is accompanied by desire is prohibited.

Also, this includes the Qur’anic verses that read “O ye who believe! If ye wed believing women and divorce them before ye have touched them, then there is no period that ye should reckon …” (Al-Ahzab: 49) “It is no sin for you if ye divorce women while yet ye have not touched them …” (Al-Baqarah: 236) For if he (the husband) touches his wife without desire, then the waiting period is not required and he is not required to pay her the whole dowry, according to the agreement of all Muslim scholars.

So, whoever assumes that Almighty Allah’s saying, “… or ye have touched women, …” includes general touching without desire has exceeded far beyond the language of the Qur’an and that of people. For if “touching” in which a man and a woman are included is mentioned, it is known that it refers to touching with desire. Similarly, if “sexual intercourse” in which a man and a woman are included is mentioned, it is well known that it refers to actual sexual intercourse and nothing else. (See the collection of Fatawa Sheikh Al-Islam Ibn Taimiyah, vol. 21, pp. 223-224)

In another context, Ibn Taimiyah stated: The Companions had debate regarding Almighty Allah’s saying, “… or ye have touched women, …”. Ibn `Abbas, supported by a group, held the opinion that touching here refers to sexual intercourse and added: Allah is modest and generous. He euphemizes with what He wills in respect of what He wills. Ibn Taimiyah added: This opinion is believed to be the most correct.

The Arabs disagreed regarding the meaning of touching: does it refer to sexual intercourse or actions that precede it? The first group said that it refers to sexual intercourse, while the second said that it refers to actions that precede it. They sought the arbitration of Ibn `Abbas, who supported the opinion of the first group and regarded that of the second as incorrect.

By transmitting all these sayings, I mean to show that when the word “al-mass” or “al-lams” (touching) is used to mean what a man does to a woman, it does not refer to mere touching but rather refers to either sexual intercourse or actions that precede it such as kissing, hugging, and any touching of the like that is accompanied by desire and enjoyment.

However, if we investigate the sahih (sound) Hadiths that are narrated from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), we will conclude that the mere touching of hands between a man and a woman without desire or fear of temptation is not prohibited. Rather, it was done by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), whose actions are originally a source of legislation. Almighty Allah says: “Verily in the Messenger of Allah ye have a good example …” (Al-Ahzab: 21). It is narrated on the authority of Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said, “Any of the female slaves of Madinah could take hold of the hand of Allah’s Messenger and take him wherever she wished.” (Reported by Al-Bukhari)

The above mentioned Hadith is a great sign of the modesty of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Furthermore, it is reported in the two Sahihs that Anas ibn Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) said, “The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to visit Umm Hiram bint Milhan, who would offer him meals. Umm Hiram was the wife of `Ubadah ibn As-Samit. Allah’s Messenger once visited her and she provided him with food and started looking for lice in his head. Then Allah’s Messenger slept putting his head in her lap, and afterwards woke up smiling. Umm Hiram asked, ‘What causes you to smile, O Allah’s Messenger?’ He said, ‘Some of my followers who (in a dream) were presented before me as fighters in Allah’s Cause (on board a ship) amidst this sea cause me to smile; they were as kings on thrones …’”

Al-Hafizh Ibn Hajar has mentioned lessons that are deduced from this Hadith: The guest is permitted to nap in a house other than his own on condition that he is given permission and there is no fear of fitnah. According to this Hadith a woman is also permitted to serve the guest by offering him a meal, drink or the like. Furthermore, a woman is permitted to look for lice in his head, but this last was an object of controversy. Ibn `Abd Al-Barr said, “I think that Umm Hiram or her sister Umm Sulaim had breast-fed the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him). So, each one of them had become his foster mother or his foster aunt. That was why he (the Prophet) used to sleep in her house and she used to deal with him as one of her mahrams.” Then he (Ibn `Abd Al-Barr) mentioned what indicates that Umm Hiram was one of the Prophet’s mahrams, as she was one of his relatives from his maternal aunts, since the mother of `Abd Al-Muttalib, his grandfather, was from Banu An-Najjar.

Others said that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was infallible and could control his sexual desires even from his wives, so what about other women who were illegal for him while he was granted infallibility from doing any wrong action or obscenity? This was one of his distinctive traits.

Al-Qadi `Iyad replied that the distinctive traits of the Prophet are not proven by personal interpretations of Hadiths. As for his infallibility, it is indisputable, but the original ruling is that it is permissible to take the Prophet’s actions as a model unless there is evidence that this action is one his distinctive traits.

Furthermore, Al-Hafizh Al-Dumyati said: It is wrong to claim that Umm Hiram was one of the maternal aunts of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) either by reason of marriage or fosterage. Those who breast-fed the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) are well known. None of them was from the Ansar except the mother of `Abd Al-Muttalib. She was Salma bint `Amr ibn Zaid ibn Lubaid ibn Khirash ibn `Amir ibn Ghunm ibn `Adyy ibn An-Najjar. While Umm Hiram is the daughter of Milhan ibn Khalid ibn Zaid ibn Judub ibn `Amir ibn Ghunm ibn `Adyy ibn An-Najjar. Umm Hiram has a common ancestor with Salma only in their grandfather `Amir ibn Ghunm. So, they are not among his mahrams because it is a metaphorical relationship. Al-Hafizh Al-Dumyati added: If this is proven, it is reported in the Sahih books of Hadith that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used not to enter any house in Madinah except the house of Umm Sulaim besides those of his wives. When he was asked why, he said, “I take pity on her, as her brother (Hiram ibn Milhan) was killed in my company.”

If this Hadith has excluded Umm Sulaim, then Umm Hiram is granted the same exclusion as her because they are sisters and resided in the same house; each one of them had her own apartment beside their brother Hiram ibn Milhan. So, the case is mutual between them, as reported by Al-Hafizh ibn Hajar.

Moreover, Umm Sulaim is the mother of Anas ibn Malik, the servant of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), and it was the habit of people that the master mixed with his servant and his family and did not deal with them as outsiders.

Then, Al-Dumyati said: There is no indication in the Hadith showing that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had khulwa (privacy) with Umm Hiram, as this might have happened in the presence of a son, a servant, or a husband.

Ibn Hajar replied: This is a strong likelihood, but it does not refute the original argument represented in looking for lice in the head and sleeping in her lap.

Ibn Hajar added: The best reply is that it is one of the distinctive traits of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) (See Fath Al-Bari, vol. 13, pp. 230-231).

What I conclude from the aforementioned narrations is that the mere touching is not haram. So, if there exists reasons for mixing as that between the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and Umm Hiram and Umm Sulaim and there is no fear of fitnah, then there is nothing wrong with shaking hands when there is a need for it, such as when returning from travel, the non-mahram male relative visiting his female relative, and vice versa, especially if this meeting happens after a long period.

Finally, I would like to ascertain two points:

Firstly, shaking hands between males and females who are not mahrams is only permissible when there is no desire or fear of fitnah. But if there is fear of fitnah, desire, or enjoyment, then handshaking is no doubt haram (unlawful). In contrast, if either of these two conditions (that there is no desire or fear of fitnah) is lacking between a male and any of his female mahrams, such as his aunt or foster sister or the like, then handshaking will be haram (although it is originally permissible).

Secondly, handshaking between males and females who are not mahrams should be restricted to necessary situations such as between relatives or those whose relationships are established by marriage. It is preferable not to expand the field of permissibility in order to block the means to evil and to be far away from doubt and to take the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as a model when there is no proof that he shook hands with a non-mahram woman. Also, it is preferable for the pious Muslim, male or female, not to stretch out his/her hand to shake the hand of anyone of the opposite sex who is not mahram. But if he/she is put in a situation that someone stretches out his/her hand to shake hands with him/her, then he/she can do that.

I have tried to clarify the detailed ruling of the issue here in order to inform those who are in the dark about it how to behave while sticking to the tenets of their religion. Also, when the detailed Islamic ruling is explained and people are fully aware of it, there will be no room for personal justifications that are not supported by legal backing.

Courtesy of IslamOnline.net
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Endymion
05-14-2012, 04:25 PM
Can anyone summarize this for me in three lines,please :hmm:

Sorry :omg: :hiding:
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-14-2012, 04:34 PM
:sl:


- Then Allah’s Messenger slept putting his head in her lap - this is an authenic story ? It happened before the verse of veil revealed ? Otherwise how it's possible ?

Also
shaking hands between males and females who are not mahrams is only permissible when there is no desire or fear of fitnah.
- Satan can easily tempt anyone to do it with the assurance that , hey , there is no fear of fitnah , so do it .

Here is a good lesson in the following story .


Story of Barsisa, the worshipper



Barsisa, the worshipper


At the time of Bani Israel, there was a man in a small village, called Barsisa. He was, what you call, a monk. But he was a true Christian. He believed in Tawheed and believed Isa (peace be upon him) was a messenger of Allah. One day three brothers decided to go for Jihad. But they had a sister and they did not want to leave her alone. So they went looking for someone to take care of her. The town people suggested to leave her with Barsisa, because of his piety. So they went to him and when they asked him, he said, "I seek refuge from the cursed Shaytan" and said No! This was because he was scared of falling into sin ( due to the potential fitnah it may cause). Then Shaytan came to Barsisa in the form of Waswasah (Whisperings). Shaytan is very smart and knew Barsisa had a soft heart. So he told Barsisa, "What if they can’t find someone good and leave her with someone bad, wouldn’t that be your fault?" Now Barsisa did not realise this was Shaytan whispering in his heart, and because of his compassion for others, he decided to accept their request and help the woman.

He let her stay in a house opposite the church. He did this so that it would be easy for him to leave her her food outside the church and she could come get it herself. But after sometime, shaytan returned. This time he told Barsisa, "Why don’t you leave the food closer for her, so that people don’t see her moving back and forth alone!" Barsisa agreed and started leaving the food outside the house. But shaytan wasn’t happy with this either, so sometime later, he returned and ask Barsisa, "Why don’t you go in and leave it on the table, so that no one sees her coming out and going in alone all the time!" Again, Barsisa agreed and he started leaving the food on the table.

Then as time went by, Shaytan returned and said to him, "Why don’t you talk to her, she is all alone and has no one to talk to!" Barsisa agreed and started talking to her from behind a door (so as to screen himself). But this would lead them to almost shouting to each other to here themselves. Shaytan asked Barsisa to just go in and talk to her, and finally, he (Shaytan) had got the alone in a room. Shaytan had completed the difficult part. It wasn’t after Barsisa and the woman committed fornication. And to make things worse, she also became pregnant. As soon as the baby was born, Shaytan returned, and said to Barsisa, "What have you done? Look at the result of your evil (ie the child), get ride of the evidence otherwise the brothers will kill you!" Barsisa killed the baby and buried it in the same room the woman was in. Shaytan then told Barsisa, "Do you think you can kill the child of a woman and expect her not to tell anyone?!" and So Barsisa killed her and buried her along side the baby! He then made a fake grace outside and when her brothers returned, he informed them that she died of illness. After seeing the grave and make dua for her, they returned home and accepted Allah’s decree.

Later that night, Shaytan came to them in their dream and informed them about what Barsisa had done and where the child and their sister could be found. The brother got up upset and confused, and informed his brothers of the dream, and they both said they had the same dream. So they believed that it must be true, and when and dug up the fake grave and found it empty. They then dug the placed shaytan showed them in the dream and found the child and woman!

Furious, the brothers took Barsisa to the Leader to get his punishment. Barsisa knew that he would be given the death penalty. Shaytan came to Barsisa again, for the final time this time. This time he revealed himself and told him he was the one whispering the thoughts to him. And he said that he could save Barsisa, and as long as Barsisa makes sujood to him! Barsisa, out of desperation made Sujood to him , this confirmed his Kufr (disbelief) and Shaytan said to him "I am free of you, I fear Allâh, the Lord of the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!" and left Barsisa was stonned to death and on the day of judgement he will be resurrected making Sujood to Shaytan!

So look how shaytan tricked him. He came to him as a friend, but was infact his biggest enemy!

(Their allies deceived them) like Shaitân (Satan), when he says to man: "Disbelieve in Allâh." But when (man) disbelieves in Allâh, Shaitân (Satan) says: "I am free of you, I fear Allâh, the Lord of the ‘Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!" (Al-Hashr 59:16)

Shaytan will never make you sin directly, he will always trick you using Waswasah and he is more patient than any of us. So we should always seek refuge in Allah from Shayatn. Never think you have anough knowledge or are strong enough to take on Shaytan. This is why the Scholars of Islam are the ones with the most Taqwa, fear of Allah. So reflect on the story, if Shaytan told Barsisa to make sujood in the beginning, Barsisa would have said no staright away, but Shaytan has a plan in hand it was a step by step policy that made Barsisa finally breakdown and commit Kufr.



http://salaf-us-saalih.com/2009/10/3...he-worshipper/

Reference for above story:
Stories in the Quran – Ibn Kathir – 110 [PDF]

Reply

dqsunday
05-14-2012, 05:01 PM
Very informative. Though one thing I have noticed...which in a way makes it best not to shake hands with any of the opposite sex, is you can never know what the other feels or intends. You personally may not have any desire or fear of feeling desire or temptation by shaking the opposite's hand, but how can we know 100% on what the other will feel or intend? Unless that opposite is somebody you know very well, I feel its probably safer to avoid shaking hands if at all possible.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Hulk
05-14-2012, 09:20 PM
One time after some grueling hours at the studio my course mates and I stood outside our school chatting for a while before going our separate ways. Well there was a girl there and I shook everyone's hands except the girl, one of them asked why I didn't shake her hand.

I said she made me nervous, then I walked off. :shade:
Reply

Muhammad
05-14-2012, 10:16 PM
:sl:

Here is an entertaining story on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6ToDoRezDw

:)
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-15-2012, 01:24 AM
:sl:



format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman


- Then Allah’s Messenger slept putting his head in her lap - this is an authenic story ?

a bro said she could be his aunt or foster mother . In that case , it can't be used as a reference in favour of shaking hand with the opposite gender .
Reply

Aprender
05-15-2012, 02:12 AM
I wonder, how exactly do you go about not shaking hands in a business setting? Especially for women working in the West. It can be seen as offensive not to shake with a CEO or business executive if they're the opposite gender. What could a lady say to them so as not to come off as rude but still respectful?

I know one brother said that he just says to non-Muslim women that the company he works for sometimes has to do business with is that women are so precious in his religion that they should not be touched by anyone other than their husbands.

That works for guys but not so sure how that would translate coming from a woman. Any suggestions?
Reply

Roasted Cashew
05-15-2012, 05:40 AM
Personally I have never initiated any handshakes with the opposite sex. But when a female does offer a handshake, I don't refuse because then I would get into a really awkward situation. Obviously I am talking abt non-Muslim females here since Muslim women know better not to shake hands. I hope Allah forgives me.
Reply

Jalal~
05-15-2012, 10:21 AM
im just gonna go with what the Hulk said and say that they make me nervous, haha. that's such a great excuse.
Reply

Hulk
05-15-2012, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jalal~
im just gonna go with what the Hulk said and say that they make me nervous, haha. that's such a great excuse
I have a new one which I haven't tried which is to say I have really sweaty palms.

;D
Reply

~ Sabr ~
05-15-2012, 11:30 AM
:salamext:

Just tell them that your religion does not permit to shake hands with opposite gender. Simple. I tried it and it worked in a job agency.
Reply

AhlaamBella
05-15-2012, 11:46 AM
Have my little one jumping around so I don't have the time to read the full post, but am I right in saying that it has been suggested that it is ok to shake hands if no chance of fitnah?

Little story: When I was "borderline practising", the one habit I hadn't kicked yet was the free-mixing. I had a few male friends that I believed there was "no chance of fitnah". I just didn't see them in that way, and thought I never ever would. One day, one such friend stole my phone and a playful squabble ensued as I tried to get it off him. Our hands obviously touched and from the outside it just looked like a bit of fun. But after that I felt awkward around him because I didn't feel as safe from temptation as I had previously. Needless to say - shaytaan jumped in and there was fitnah.

No matter how safe you feel with someone, shaytaan is just waiting for an opportunity - usually when your guard is down.
Reply

Jalal~
05-16-2012, 01:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
I have a new one which I haven't tried which is to say I have really sweaty palms.
Lol, i tried this a while ago, and it worked. but yeah, i think its best to tell them straight up that its against our religion like Haafizah says.
She makes it sound so easy though /// i guess a few seconds of awkwardness wouldn't be that bad...
Reply

dqsunday
05-16-2012, 01:46 AM
I think most people who see a woman in hijab will have a good idea offering to shake hands isn't a good idea. Then again some people are so used to sticking out their hands to shake its automatic and by the time they realize its not a good idea, a gentle reminder for the woman to say 'I choose not to shake hands due to my religion but i am most pleased to meet you' should work fine. If polite and respectful the hand shaker will understand.
Reply

Jalal~
06-24-2012, 05:24 PM
Another idea: when the person extends their hand, just put out scissors and make a rock-paper-scissors reference. Then you can tell them later why you didn't shake their hands; this helps to remove that awkward feeling.
Reply

Qurratul Ayn
06-24-2012, 05:36 PM
^ Yes! Scissors beats paper. Again?

:haha:

Noooooo! I'd prefer to stick with this:

format_quote Originally Posted by dqsunday
'I choose not to shake hands due to my religion but i am most pleased to meet you'
:awesome:
Reply

Jalal~
06-24-2012, 05:40 PM
lol of course saying that statement would be the best; this was just an idea for people not as strong in their faith, or are afraid to hurt someone's feelings. Their are some people in the world who get very offended if you dont shake their hands, so if you know someone is going to get mad, this is like your secondary weapon.
Reply

Qurratul Ayn
06-24-2012, 05:46 PM
Secondary weapon?! Be armed, people, there's dangers lurking in every corner... Tis' true. So have it ready. Lol

Hmmm... Insha'Allaah, they shall increase their strength in their faith, to perform this little bit of action but people really should try to avoid avoid shaking hands with the opposite gender, if possible. The comment may not offend many people in the working world as people out there are a lot more understanding and slightly more knowledgable than they're given credit for. Unbelievable, right?! (No offence intended! Apologies)
Reply

Jalal~
06-24-2012, 05:54 PM
Yeah now that i think about it, it does seem kind of childish, hahaha.
Reply

Qurratul Ayn
06-24-2012, 05:59 PM
^ :haha:

Neverheless, it was a good suggestion
Reply

KnockKnock
06-24-2012, 07:11 PM
Lol usually if a women wants me to shake her hand, i just become all :scared: and then after the awkwardness i just say my religion respects women.
Reply

LauraS
06-26-2012, 12:13 AM
Do Muslims put their hands together and slightly bow their heads when greeting people? Sorry if this is wrong. :omg:
Reply

~Raindrop~
06-26-2012, 12:27 AM
^I think you're confusing that with the Japanese custom =)
Reply

جوري
06-26-2012, 01:13 AM
I kinda like that Japanese custom to be quite frank.. it is polite and enables you, your private bubble.. free from bees and disease..
Reply

Calm_Sea
06-26-2012, 03:18 AM
Thanks for this article I was looking for something like this
Reply

PouringRain
06-26-2012, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dqsunday
Then again some people are so used to sticking out their hands to shake its automatic and by the time they realize its not a good idea, a gentle reminder for the woman to say 'I choose not to shake hands due to my religion but i am most pleased to meet you' should work fine. If polite and respectful the hand shaker will understand.
There was a brother once who spoke about the automaticity of sticking out his hand to shake, so he trained himself to place it over his heart, and then he would say what you wrote, then he does not shake hands due to his religious beliefs. I think the hand over the heart is a nice gesture.
Reply

ardianto
06-26-2012, 03:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Do Muslims put their hands together and slightly bow their heads when greeting people? Sorry if this is wrong. :omg:
That's what Indonesian Muslims do to avoid shaking hand.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aisha
^I think you're confusing that with the Japanese custom =)
Not only Japanese. That's Far East and South East Asia nations custom.
Reply

sofiap
06-26-2012, 11:55 AM
i ve added posts here twice..but it seems like they seem to disappear,without warning,but it wasn't offensive either...it may be a glitch.. yes i agree the gesture of the hand is very noble and humbling, and my post was explaining,that chines people do bow and it is respected,hence the more we practice,the more widely it will be received without the issues in sha Allaah
Reply

MohamedMaghrebi
06-26-2012, 01:12 PM
personally , when i don't have choice i shake hand ,

if shaking hand can turn a person on , i think he is really in trouble .
Reply

Paprika
06-26-2012, 01:13 PM
Sometimes at work I have to shake hand the girls. Is that haraam?? sorry I didn't read the OP, too long:hmm:
Reply

MohamedMaghrebi
06-26-2012, 01:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
Sometimes at work I have to shake hand the girls. Is that haraam?? sorry I didn't read the OP, too long:hmm:
ok it depends on your intention from shaking hand , apparently some people can get pleasure from this .
Reply

Paprika
06-26-2012, 01:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MohamedMaghrebi
ok it depends on your intention from shaking hand , apparently some people can get pleasure from this .
No, it's not much fun, they are just not my type......
Reply

MohamedMaghrebi
06-26-2012, 01:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
No, it's not much fun, they are just not my type......
ok , i think there a lot of things more important if muslim life today , than getting pleasure from a shaking hand .
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
06-26-2012, 02:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MohamedMaghrebi
ok , i think there a lot of things more important if muslim life today , than getting pleasure from a shaking hand .
:sl:

A part of our faith is the principle of sadd al-dharaa’i’ which means to block the means that may lead to haraam things and closing every door that may lead to evil and sin. So as Muslims we should keep away from anything that may cause us to fall into sin or evil in the first place and surely a man touching or grasping the hand of an attractive (or even half attractive) woman may be enough to ignite passions and desires within him, even in a person with the most strongest of imaan especially for a person who may have a sickness in his heart.

So although this issue may seem small to you, it should not be dismissed as being minor and unimportant as it is far better to keep away from anything which may ignite ones passions and desires and therefore may lead to sin.
Reply

Paprika
06-26-2012, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
:sl:

A big part of our faith is that we keep away from anything that may cause us to fall into sin. Then surely a man touching or grasping the hand of an attractive (or even half attractive) woman may be enough to ignite passions and desires within him, even in a person with the most strongest of imaan.

So although this issue may seem small to you, it should not be dismissed as being minor and unimportant as it is far better to keep away from anything which may ignite ones passions and desires and therefore may lead to sin.
What about muslim male doctors having to do check up on women???
I know a couple of muslim male gynacologists, can't for the life of me understand why they got into that profession:-[
There are probably a hundred different fields they could have specialised in.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
06-26-2012, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
What about muslim male doctors having to do check up on women???
I know a couple of muslim male gynacologists, can't for the life of me understand why they got into that profession:-[
There are probably a hundred different fields they could have specialised in.
:sl:

That is why it is encouraged for Muslim women to take up such specialities as Gynacology so that there is less of a chance of Muslim women having to see male gynacologists.

Regarding your question about Muslim doctors treating the opposite gender then Mawlana Rafaqat Rashid of the UK, who is a GP gave his response to this question:

Medical Professionals treating patients of opposite gender –
Shari’ Guidelines

I have not inserted evidential text to save space and technicalities. Reference should be made to Imam Ibn Abideen, Raddul Muhtar and al-qawa’id al- fiqhiyya of dharar and dharurah’(harm and necessity), al-ashbah wa’l- naza’ir of ibn Nujaym and Imam al-Suyuti.

There are two issues of concern here:

1. Awra’ (exposing parts of the body which are not permissible to a non-mahram)
2. Khalwa’ (seclusion with a non-mahram)

Both of the above are not permitted in shariah. However, exceptions are made in cases such as medical need or necessity. Most of the fuqaha are agreed upon this but with conditions:

CONDITIONS

1. Real Need

al-dharurat tubih al-mahzurat (necessity permits the impermissible)


There must be a ‘real need’. Real need would fall within the scope that examination of a certain anatomy of a person is required to ascertain information that is likely to:

• support a diagnosis or therapy. (this can include a broad system examination for ? cancer, surgical treatment, a process of investigation i.e transvaginal U/S)

• Prevent medical liability- as this would be threatening to one’s career and would be a requirement by the medical regulatory bodies and medical law.

• For educational reasons- i.e. learning how to examine a system or taking an exam

Note- One must bear in mind if any of the above can be avoided without medico-legal risk then this would be a better option. Example- If it is obvious there is a small uncomplicated boil around the groin from the history and there is no evidence of red flags, then it would be better just to provide antibiotics rather than examine the groin etc.

2. Availability of appropriate gender health professional

If the patient is of opposite gender then all effort must be made to refer the patient to a health professional who is of the same gender as the patient. This will depend on availability. Ideally for a female patient the order of preference is a Muslim female, a non-Muslim female, a practicing Muslim male and finally a non-Muslim Male. For a male patient a Muslim male, then a non-Muslim female, a Muslim female and finally a non-Muslim female. Non-availability will only be justified for the following reasons:

• The other health professional is not willing to see or examine the patient

• There is no available health professional, who fulfils the required experience or skill level. (i.e. A male consultant gynaecologist would be considered permissible even if a female Muslim gynaecologist is available but does not have the required expertise)

• There is no obligation to undergo hardship to the extent that it could be detrimental to one’s career, in seeking an appropriate gender health professional of sufficient expertise. (i.e. if patients have been placed on one’s named clinic list, it would be considered serious hardship to see only the same gender patients even if an appropriate gender health professional is available as this could be detrimental to one’s career and reputation) al-mashaqqatu tajlub al-taysir (hardship begets facility)

• If there is an emergency and the first health professional available is not of the same gender. al-dharar al-ashadd yuzal bi’l-darar al-akhaff (a greater harm is eliminated by [tolerating] a lesser harm)

Note- Circumstances where there is a need to examine the genital/anal areas of males and females, or breasts of females would require one to exert some element of hardship in seeking a health professional of appropriate gender, as these are considered areas of shahwa (sexual organs or areas of modesty- even to health professionals). It is therefore discouraged for males to specialise in areas of obstretics and gynaecology or females to specialise in urology where the focus of that speciality are those systems.

3. Not to exceed limits of khalwa’ and exposure of awra’

al-darar yudfa’u bi-qadr al imkan (harm is to be eliminated within reasonable limits)

Awra’:

• If any part of the awra’ must be uncovered then all effort must be made to expose only the minimum required, and to cover as soon as possible.

• If any part of the anatomy is to be palpated or touched then one must ensure that the minimum of touching is done to ascertain what is required and for the least reasonable period.

Khalwa’:

• The ethical and legal right of privacy competes with the obligation of khalwa’ as there may be times where one needs to see a patient alone so as not to breach confidentiality of an embarrassing medical issue, even before the husband or wife. For this reason, because of medico-legal requirements, a medical professional would not be liable under shariah if he/she consulted with the opposite gender alone for the same conditions as “Availability of appropriate gender health professional” above.

• When discussing about, or examining the areas of shahwa’ one should make every effort to do this in the company of the patient’s spouse. This should be done to the extent the above point allows. Examining patients awra’ in direct view of the patients mahram other than the spouse is not permissible, if this is considered awra’ for the mahram also. If the patient insists then there is no shari’ liability on the health professional.

• Examining the areas of shahwa’ should only be done in direct view of a chaperone of the same gender as the patient. (i.e when a female doctor is obligated to examine a male patient, a male chaperone is advised if possible- this situation should be avoided by all reasonable means).

Final Note- One must uphold professionalism (aadaab) in one’s conduct always. This is a requirement in both shariah as well as a medico-legal obligation.

Source: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...my-limitations
Reply

Paprika
06-26-2012, 02:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
:sl:

That is why it is encouraged for Muslim women to take up such specialities as Gynacology so that there is less of a chance of Muslim women having to see male gynacologists.
I disagree with muslim women working, only if it's absolutely necessary. They can go to a female non muslim gynae.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
06-26-2012, 02:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
I disagree with muslim women working, only if it's absolutely necessary. They can go to a female non muslim gynae.

In general, if one can maintain the Islamic limits and manners of social interaction, then such work would be in itself permitted. So one couldn't get into khalwa situations, or shake hands with persons of the opposite gender, or wear clothing that defines the form of one's awra (nakedness), or such haram matters.

As for interaction with persons of the other gender, the ruling for this according to the traditional fuqaha is that it is disliked unless there is a genuine need (whether worldly, such as work, or next-worldly, such as Islamic instruction), and no fear of fitna, and such interaction is kept to the reasonable minimum needed, because interaction with persons of the other gender is an exception based on need and such exceptions are only allowed to the extent needed, not more.

Source:http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?...D=1358&CATE=88

Sometimes it becomes necessery for a woman to work and other times there are many professions such as Gynacology for example that needs more Muslim women. So if the above conditions are met then there is nothing wrong with women working if they want to or have to.

And Allah knows best in all matters
Reply

Paprika
06-26-2012, 03:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
In general, if one can maintain the Islamic limits and manners of social interaction, then such work would be in itself permitted. So one couldn't get into khalwa situations, or shake hands with persons of the opposite gender, or wear clothing that defines the form of one's awra (nakedness), or such haram matters.

As for interaction with persons of the other gender, the ruling for this according to the traditional fuqaha is that it is disliked unless there is a genuine need (whether worldly, such as work, or next-worldly, such as Islamic instruction), and no fear of fitna, and such interaction is kept to the reasonable minimum needed, because interaction with persons of the other gender is an exception based on need and such exceptions are only allowed to the extent needed, not more.

Source:http://spa.qibla.com/issue_view.asp?...D=1358&CATE=88

Sometimes it becomes necessery for a woman to work and other times there are many professions such as Gynacology for example that needs more Muslim women. So if the above conditions are met then there is nothing wrong with women working if they want to or have to.

And Allah knows best in all matters
For sure, i just get barking mad when they make every excuse in the book coz they want a profession. Most of the time it does not meet any of the Islamic criteria, but nooooo they want to work. Western brainwashing if you ask me.
Reply

sofiap
06-26-2012, 03:16 PM
its more of precautional measure, more for the protection from harassment ,..it all comes down to intention,but someone once said..wouldn't it be awakward if you shake a hand of one co/worker[female] who you feel comfortable with,and to another female co/worker who you may not feel so comfortable with,how would you explain,if we go upon intent in that context...would it not make an obvious thing be known,then to avoid it if we can....masha Allaah made a good point....
Reply

ardianto
06-26-2012, 03:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
That is why it is encouraged for Muslim women to take up such specialities as Gynacology so that there is less of a chance of Muslim women having to see male gynacologists.
Assalamu'alaikum, akhee Hamza.

There are many female doctor in Indonesia in various specialization. Mostly of them are Muslimah. But strangely, female gynecologists are very very rare. And it become a problem for women because they must go to male gynecologists.

One day, a brother asked ustadz Ahmad Sarwat. "Yaa ustadz, is it allowed for male gynecologists to see his female patient awrah?"

Ustadz Sarwat answer "Actually it is impermissible. But it's can be allowed under Hukm Ad-Dharurat. However, should we use Hukm Ad-Dharurat forever?. So, sisters should study gynecology. We need more female gynacologist".


One common question in my place is why female medical students seem like avoid gynacology? . But when when people ask them, they do not answer.
Reply

MohamedMaghrebi
06-26-2012, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
:sl:

A part of our faith is the principle of sadd al-dharaa’i’ which means to block the means that may lead to haraam things and closing every door that may lead to evil and sin. So as Muslims we should keep away from anything that may cause us to fall into sin or evil in the first place and surely a man touching or grasping the hand of an attractive (or even half attractive) woman may be enough to ignite passions and desires within him, even in a person with the most strongest of imaan especially for a person who may have a sickness in his heart.

So although this issue may seem small to you, it should not be dismissed as being minor and unimportant as it is far better to keep away from anything which may ignite ones passions and desires and therefore may lead to sin.

a Muslim who is working in big company , 50% of his colleges are women, he have meetings every day , should he every time a women try to shake his hand try to avoid , you think its a logic behaviour i dont think so , so the point here is to try to get over this , and raise the level , if really shaking hands with women can turn the guy on , or making him have an ulterior motive , that person has a real problem , and he should find a solution by himself
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
06-26-2012, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MohamedMaghrebi
a Muslim who is working in big company , 50% of his colleges are women, he have meetings every day , should he every time a women try to shake his hand try to avoid , you think its a logic behaviour i dont think so , so the point here is to try to get over this , and raise the level , if really shaking hands with women can turn the guy on , or making him have an ulterior motive , that person has a real problem , and he should find a solution by himself
:sl:

My brother i know of many professionals who work in big organisations and have high up positions but they try not to comprimise they're beliefs and convictions just for a few moments of awkwardness or what other people may think of them. They try to be firm in they're belief and will not hesitate to do whatever it takes in order to safeguard themselves against even the possibility of sin or evil. Therefore we must not have this attitude that we are to comprimise our beliefs just so that we don't feel a little awkward in front of a few females who may extend they're hands to us. One should simply tell them respectfully the reason why they do not shake hands with the opposite gender and i guarantee you that they will be most understandin and respectful towards such a belief.

You should also not dismiss the possibility of a persons passions being ignited in such a situation as "strange" or "not normal". You should also not act as if you are immune to the possibility of your own passions being ignited in such a way, as we are all human and surely we are all weak and susceptible in such situations especially when being exposed to the opposite gender in certain situations.

I know it is not easy especially in the west but if we were to try our best to do that which will please Allah and try our utmost to refrain from anything that may anger or displease him then surely we will taste the sweetness of imaan and feel contentment, satisfaction, tranquility and happiness in our hearts that cannot be felt in any other way.

May Allah enable us to please him in every situation and avoid displeasing him in anyway shape or form. Ameen
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
06-26-2012, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Assalamu'alaikum, akhee Hamza.

There are many female doctor in Indonesia in various specialization. Mostly of them are Muslimah. But strangely, female gynecologists are very very rare. And it become a problem for women because they must go to male gynecologists.

One day, a brother asked ustadz Ahmad Sarwat. "Yaa ustadz, is it allowed for male gynecologists to see his female patient awrah?"

Ustadz Sarwat answer "Actually it is impermissible. But it's can be allowed under Hukm Ad-Dharurat. However, should we use Hukm Ad-Dharurat forever?. So, sisters should study gynecology. We need more female gynacologist".


One common question in my place is why female medical students seem like avoid gynacology? . But when when people ask them, they do not answer.
:sl:

It maybe still a very taboo area which is why many Muslim women may not tend to choose such a specialism and go for something like paediatrics instead. But we certainly do need more Muslim women in this area as i would not feel comfortable with any women folk of my family having to se a male Gynacologist.
Reply

Muhammad
06-26-2012, 07:13 PM
:sl:

This article is written by a student of knowledge and is a response to the original fatwa posted at the beginning of this thread:

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

It is indeed a time of trials and hardship that Muslims live nowadays. This suffering led some to go astray and others to stick fast to religion while others were overwhelmed by Allah’s Mercy to let such hardship be a reason for their guidance.

It is very important to look into the reasons behind our suffering since hardships happen either because of the love of Allah or out of his wrath and punishment. Look around you and you will immediately come to the conclusion that this Hardship is a punishment rather than a reward although it is a reward for some but they are few, and with Allah we seek his guidance and assistance. This punishment was after several warnings and after people detached from the right path by following ways other than what Allah and his messenger prescribed for us.

I must remind myself and my brothers and sisters of a Hadith to keep in mind whenever they come across a strange or odd opinion that is presented nowadays; The Hadith is:

Abu Huraira narrated the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم ) said: “ In the end of the time there will be liars and fabricators who will report tales and stories that neither you or your fathers have ever heard . Be cautious of those so that they do not misguide you or tempt you” [Saheeh Ibn Habban: 6766]

I begin, seeking Allah’s assistance, guidance and blessings:

The phenomenon of odd verdicts is something that this Ummah started to be suffering from nowadays. However, the problem is not the existence of such verdicts as the problem lies now on the fact that these odd verdicts started to find a place in hearts and ears of some Muslims. There are many factors that facilitated this problem to exist, such like: spreading ignorance, twisted fitra due to external influence and weakness.

The verdict of the permissibility of shaking hands between males and women who are lawful to each other for marriage is the latest but not the last!! It reached our ears that such verdict came out of a known sheikh, who we excuse him and ask Allah to forgive him since no one is infallible except the prophet ( صلى الله عليه و سلم ) in addition to the fact that the prophet ( صلى الله عليه و سلم ) excused him as well when he said in the authentic Hadith:

Narrated By 'Amr bin Al-'As: That he heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If a judge gives a verdict according to the best of his knowledge and his verdict is correct (i.e. agrees with Allah and His Apostle's verdict) he will receive a double reward, and if he gives a verdict according to the best of his knowledge and his verdict is wrong, (i.e. against that of Allah and His Apostle) even then he will get a reward." [Sahih Bukhari: 6919]

The Shaikh – May Allah forgives him – seems to base his verdict on various points, which to some point are contradictory to each other. So, we will tackle each point inshallah separately:

The Sheikh – May Allah forgives him – argues that scholars who gave the verdict of impermissibility belong to the school who adopt the opinion of impermissibility for women to show her hands and face in presence of non-Mahrams males. He also added, for some reason that I do not understand that this opinion is a minority opinion which is something I would have defamed but since we do not wish to distract the topic, I will postpone that topic.

I must admit that the sheikh seems to forget that even scholars who did not see covering the face and hands as obligatory on women did not allow shaking hands. This misunderstanding happens because the Shaikh, may Allah have his mercy on him, did not distinguish between the permissibility to show and the impermissibility of touching. If we to follow this weak argument would the Shaikh allow touching women faces as well or women touching men faces?!!! I believe not. However, let me put before your hands what scholars said and how they distinguished between showing and touching in their verdicts because scholars allowed women to show their faces and hands but forbade the face and the hands to be touched by non-Mahram males..


Hanafi Madhab:

“It is not allowed for a man to touch the face or the hands of a woman who is not mahram for him even if there is no fear of desire” [ Al-Libab Fi Sharh Al-Kitab: section of allowed and prohibited: 4:23]

It is not allowed to touch the face or the hand of female who is not Mahram even if he feared no desire to happen because with the fear of desire the prohibition is stronger. [Ad-Dur Al-Mukhtar: 5/685] and [Rad Al-Muhta]

Maliki Madhab:

“You aught to know that allowing looking does not mean it is allowed to touch. Therefore, it is allowed for woman to look at a man’s (who is not mahram to her) face and his parts and the same applied on men who are not allowed to touch the woman face if he is not a Mahram to her. [Hasheyet Al-sawi A’la Al-Sharh Al-Sagheer:1/458]

Shafi’e Madhab:

1.looking at women’s face and hands while there is no Fitna or desire then it has a difference of opinion but the correct opinion is “ it is prohibited” as Alstakheri, Altabari, sheikh Abu Muhammad, Abu ishaq alsherazi, and alrewyani as well as the Imam who said that it is agreed amongst Muslims to prevent women from going out uncovered since looking is the source of Fitna and the drive force of desires so it is suitable and proper of this Shari’a to block the means and neglect the details of different circumstances because of that. [ Kifayet Al-Akhyaar: 1/460]

The Shaikh, May Allah forgive him, argues n another point that scholars based their opinion of impermissibility on the rule “blocking the means to evil is obligatory”. So he argues, then in situation where no desires is feared to happen then the ruling would be different therefore to be permissible!!

This is very awkward analysis and something that does not make sense because the Shaikh apposes a fact about human being nature in such statements. It is normal and a nature of human beings desires to be provoked with opposite sex touches and only someone with twisted nature who would not feel so as it is nature of straight men and straight women to feel so. The Shaikh assumption of no temptation or evil to rouse ins such incidents is like someone who asks what he needs to do if sun rises from the west, does he still need to pray Fajir or not?!!!!

It is a fact that should not even been explained but it is good to remind people with anyway. Furthermore, does this absence of desire happen rarely or to everyone in general? I am sure the Shaikh would agree that if it ever happens to a straight person, which is something I doubt to happen though, it will be in very rare occasion and it is known that verdicts are designed for general not rare ones. If the Shaikh holds his argument to be correct then would he allow touching the face as well if someone said they do not feel any desires? Would he allow touching lips or cheeks? I believe not again so the base of this argument that the Shaikh adopts is too fragile and weak. In addition, we already read the statements of scholars who prohibited touching even if there is no desire feared.

The Shaikh, may Allah guide him, not only argues that there are no clear evidences of such prohibition but also question the Hadiths of the prophet at the time of the pledge of A’qaba incident. Thus, I shall present for you the evidences and refute his argument about each evidence:
  • “And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent…” (An-Nur: 31)
The Shaikh sees no evidence of prohibition in this verse for women and men to shake their hands if they are not mahram to each other. Yet, again the reason behind his misunderstanding that he still assumes that touching is similar to showing which is not true as we as noted previously from scholars’ statements. In addition, if looking is not allowed then it is more proper that touching is not allowed as well!!! The Shaikh, may Allah forgive him, seems to say do not look but you can touch!!! This is something that even laypeople do not say!!!
  • on the authority of Ma`qil ibn Yassar that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “It would be better for one of you to have himself stabbed on the head with an iron needle than to touch a woman that is illegal for him.” [Al-Mu’jam Al-Kabeer:486]
The Shaikh, May Allah preserve him, argue the Hadith’s authenticity by declaring that stating that scholars classification was as “ authentic chain of narrators” and the Shaikh argues that this is not enough because it is possible that this Hadith may have an interruption in its chain of narration or have I’lla ( hidden cause behind the Hadith). This argument of the Shaikh is strange as he did not even anticipated the Hadith to reach a conclusion about its authenticity and depended on his assumption that it could be not authentic!! Thus, his questioning was not based on any evidence at all. Anyway, we ask the Shaikh investigation about this Hadith classification although it is not the only evidence that scholar rely on. Anyway, the Hadith is been classified as authentic by Shaikh Al-Albani (رحمه الله ).

The Shaikh then argue that , if he to assume the Hadith is authentic, and it is, the meaning of the Arabic word ( مس) used in the Hadith only had been used to describe touching because of sexual desire, when it comes to man and woman, and he used many examples. This argument is defamed by the authentic Hadith in Sunan Al-Nasai’e: On the authority of Aisha she said: "I used to sleep in front of Allah's Apostle while he is praying and when he wanted to offer Witr prayer he would touch (مس) my legs” [ Sunan Al-Nasai’e: 166]. This Hadith clearly shows that the word has been used between man and woman means touching in its normal meaning without any desire unless the Shaikh thinks otherwise!!!

It seems that the Shaikh, alhamdullah, agree and acknowledge the fact that the prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم ) never shock hands with women as he explained in the end of his verdict. However, the Shaikh still used the Hadiths of the aunt of Anas Bin Malik and the slave girl Hadith. To this we reply: firstly the incident of the aunt of Anas (رضي الله عنه) many scholars stated that it is the aunt of the prophet although some did not agree. In addition, Alhafith Ibn Hajar clearly said that this is one of the distinctive traits of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم) which lead us not to use the Hadith as an evidence to derive ruling from because if the Shaikh says otherwise then that means he allows a man to put his hands in woman lap which is something that no one ever say even if he has no knowledge!!!

In the end let me put before you some of the evidences that is based on to derive the verdict of impermissibility of shaking hands:
  • Allah says: {“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent” (An-Nur: 31)

  • And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way. [ Sura al-Isra: 32]

  • O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. [ Sura AL-Nur: 21]
The above verses clearly tell us to lower the gaze as well as to have modesty which leads me to ask: in which religion touching a woman who is not lawful for you to look at from the first place is an act of modesty!!

It is clear that such act plants in hearts of men and women the sense of shamelessness and let them lose their nature jealousy and why would not they be when they seem to be fine seeing his wife, his daughter, his mother or his sister touching another man!!! May Allah save us from his wrath!.

It is obvious that this is the footstep of Shaitan which we are commanded to avoid as the verse clearly shows. So let those who are weak and have illness in their heart to be warned about the danger of following people’s mistakes in this matter.
  • Jarir b. 'Abdullah reported: I asked Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him) about the sudden glance (that is cast) on a non-Mahram. He commanded me that to turn away my eyes.
3. Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying. Allah fixed the very portion of adultery which a man will indulge in. There would be no escape from it. The adultery of the eye is the look and the adultery of the ears is listening to voluptuous (song or talk) and the adultery of the tongue is licentious speech and the adultery of the hand is the grip (embrace) and the adultery of the feet is to walk (to the place) where he intends to commit adultery and the heart yearns and desires which he may or may not put into effect.

The Hadiths are too obvious to be talked about and it is enough to have them as they are and yet again I ask would it make sense to forbade looking and allow touching?!!!!!How is it possible to say it is not allowed to look while it is ok to touch!!! It is obvious that forbidding looking in general so it is more sense that touching to be prohibited even if there is no desire.

My final word:

I believe the Shaikh, May Allah forgive him, contradicted himself in many places and put himself in embarrassment in other situations because the verdict he derived opened a gate of evil on people. The so called evidences he used to show that it is permissible left him stuck on the fact that if the part that concerned him is general then that lead to accept all the evidences as general. So, that would mean to allow physical contact between non mahram like to lie down on women laps, walking hand to hand with women and sort of odd unacceptable verdicts that he, himself, appose.

Sum up:
  • The Shaikh did not differentiate between permissibility to show hands and face and touching them.

  • The Shaikh did not differentiate between having desire before shaking hands and having desires as a result of shaking hands or touching in general, which cannot be predicted and controlled and normal to happen due to the nature of human being toward opposite sex.

  • The Shaikh used evidences that are used against him so he had to take part of it only as the rest of them will contradict his odd verdict

  • The Shaikh did not consider the fact that the stand of the Four Madhabs is to forbade touching non mahrams.
Wallahu A’l-Musta’an


ًWallahu A'lam
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=876
Reply

LauraS
06-26-2012, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
That's what Indonesian Muslims do to avoid shaking hand.


Not only Japanese. That's Far East and South East Asia nations custom.
Ok thanks, I do like that greeting. :)
Reply

sofiap
06-27-2012, 11:39 AM
"Say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; and that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands..." (Qur'an 24:30-31) why do we always take out the verse that speaks to man..lol..masha Allaah..it is a responsibility that falls equally to both genders..
Reply

sofiap
06-27-2012, 06:38 PM
to brother hamza..with all due respect If women didn't work,how are our wives,sisters,mothers to seek or even have a choice in choosing female professionals over,males professionals ? And women are seeking,female doctors,female nurses, female teachers, female gynaecologists,females drivers,female shop owners,female ustada's ect..the list goes on, masha Allaah. We have much need for female professions, firstly Allaah recommends education and knowledge for both male and female, brother hamza don't feel mad but be grateful that your sister,wife,mother have a safe environment to enter...
Allaah tells us to use reasoning, very important.what is going on in this world is not a blame on one gender both are responsible brother. And ladies have no choice but to work to feed their children when marriages break down,or when she is left a widows, and ladies often are left to earn a keep to shelter and a feed for their children..? For those ladies who have no education and are desperate they can fall in the hands of prey,and we all know what im talking about. Are you willing to support them? To take them in? To marry them,and be the support you are dutiful to uphold? By all means do,as that will save them from uglys paws of evil mans domain...we have to always look at reality,and not blind ourselves to a naive world we think we are living in...may Allaah support women in the way Allaah intended, and may Allaah support women to understand their true worth... this is a very complex issues,but we are bound to responsibility and accountablity.
Reply

sofiap
06-27-2012, 06:40 PM
To sister writer..lool.. im trying In sha Allaah will get there.:p
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
06-27-2012, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sofiap
to brother hamza..with all due respect If women didn't work,how are our wives,sisters,mothers to seek or even have a choice in choosing female professionals over,males professionals ? And women are seeking,female doctors,female nurses, female teachers, female gynaecologists,females drivers,female shop owners,female ustada's ect..the list goes on, masha Allaah. We have much need for female professions, firstly Allaah recommends education and knowledge for both male and female, brother hamza don't feel mad but be grateful that your sister,wife,mother have a safe environment to enter...
Allaah tells us to use reasoning, very important.what is going on in this world is not a blame on one gender both are responsible brother. And ladies have no choice but to work to feed their children when marriages break down,or when she is left a widows, and ladies often are left to earn a keep to shelter and a feed for their children..? For those ladies who have no education and are desperate they can fall in the hands of prey,and we all know what im talking about. Are you willing to support them? To take them in? To marry them,and be the support you are dutiful to uphold? By all means do,as that will save them from uglys paws of evil mans domain...we have to always look at reality,and not blind ourselves to a naive world we think we are living in...may Allaah support women in the way Allaah intended, and may Allaah support women to understand their true worth... this is a very complex issues,but we are bound to responsibility and accountablity.
:sl:

My sister if you read the last couple of interactions between me and brother Paprika then you would realise that I was supporting and encouraging the fact that Muslim women should get into professions where there is much need for them such as Gynaecology etc. So it seems to me that you misunderstood my posts.

:wa:
Reply

sofiap
06-27-2012, 09:20 PM
oops!! my deepest apologies,brother Hamza :)yes i got the wrong name,i meant paprika..
Reply

Paprika
06-28-2012, 06:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sofiap
to brother hamza..with all due respect If women didn't work,how are our wives,sisters,mothers to seek or even have a choice in choosing female professionals over,males professionals ? And women are seeking,female doctors,female nurses, female teachers, female gynaecologists,females drivers,female shop owners,female ustada's ect..the list goes on, masha Allaah. We have much need for female professions, firstly Allaah recommends education and knowledge for both male and female, brother hamza don't feel mad but be grateful that your sister,wife,mother have a safe environment to enter...
Allaah tells us to use reasoning, very important.what is going on in this world is not a blame on one gender both are responsible brother. And ladies have no choice but to work to feed their children when marriages break down,or when she is left a widows, and ladies often are left to earn a keep to shelter and a feed for their children..? For those ladies who have no education and are desperate they can fall in the hands of prey,and we all know what im talking about. Are you willing to support them? To take them in? To marry them,and be the support you are dutiful to uphold? By all means do,as that will save them from uglys paws of evil mans domain...we have to always look at reality,and not blind ourselves to a naive world we think we are living in...may Allaah support women in the way Allaah intended, and may Allaah support women to understand their true worth... this is a very complex issues,but we are bound to responsibility and accountablity.
I disagree, women today have chosen haraam professions which muslim women don't need, like Accountants, lawyers, engineers, IT professionals, how does that benefit the muslim ummah or muslim women????

Even if they choose so called halaal professions like teaching or medicine, many of them don't have the right intention anyway. They end up teaching teenage boys, becoming GP's working with and mixing with Ghair Mahram men, first and foremost the universities are a mixed environment and one of the greatest fitnah's of our time. Everyone know what these women do in university well the majority atleast. I know a muslim niqaabi doctor who went to uni with her niqaab, fell in love with a fellow student and married him, so much for intentions?????

This is only the tip of the Ice berg, then you have other complications where she can't take care of her kids because she has a profession and busy schedule so she has to dump them in some creche or daycare. Call me paranoid but I would rather have my wife go to a male doctor once in a while where there really isn't any prolonged chance of fitnah than dump her in some haraam workplace that will destroy her aakhirah and that of her children. The children of this ummah are begging for mothers like Khadijah RA, do you think these western universities are gonna give them that????????


Not a chance........:raging:
Reply

sofiap
06-30-2012, 12:18 AM
falling in love in not a sin...:) and they married? Masha Allaah, so now they are in a halal relationship? Islam does not stop falling in love,as love is a mercy from Allaah, thecommitting of lust is from shytan,unless the intentions are towards his wife. So if a man falls in love and marries the girl,that is ok, but if a sister likes a boy then its a sin? :hmm: Im a afraid where sin is concerned, its the same for both parties. They both will suffer the same fate,unless they understand their wrong and repent...yes the children of this ummah are in need for mothers who can give them more time,and also the children of this ummah are in need of characters such as our Prophets. But what do we do? im a believer of 'stay at home mums',only because i believe the importance of little ones having mums full time and mums having great too with the growth of their children.. but this is what i have chosen, you say you are ok with your wife to go to male doctors,but have you ever asked how she would feels..? or are her feelings not to be even considered?

what we are forgetting is that women are human beings too,they are not robots...Again i will say if you had to go to a woman doctor ,not out of choice and you had a personal problem,how would you feel? to be prodded and poked? Believe me you would wish there was a male doc available. by the way lady Khadijah was a very good business women..:)what you and your wife decide to do is between you. I would suggest both parties before they marry knows what the other intentions/requirements are.
Reply

Tyrion
06-30-2012, 01:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
block the means that may lead to haraam things and closing every door that may lead to evil and sin. So as Muslims we should keep away from anything that may cause us to fall into sin or evil
Indeed, that's why I never step out of my house. You never know what evil things you'll find outside... Like, did you know there are girls out there? Non Muslim ones too! In fact, you've just convinced me to never go on the internet again either, since its obviously a doorway that has the potential to lead me to evil as well. :omg:




No, but seriously, that statement is far too broad to be at all practical.
Reply

ardianto
06-30-2012, 03:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
A part of our faith is the principle of sadd al-dharaa’i’ which means to block the means that may lead to haraam things and closing every door that may lead to evil and sin.
Close the door in our hearts.

If we close our house door, but we do not close our heart door, when a sexy woman pass, we would look at her through the window. But if we close our heart from everything that may lead to evil and sin, when we walk pass a half naked woman, we would not look at her.
Reply

TrueStranger
06-30-2012, 04:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
I disagree, women today have chosen haraam professions which muslim women don't need, like Accountants, lawyers, engineers, IT professionals, how does that benefit the muslim ummah or muslim women????
:sl:

Knowledge is always beneficial.

Focus on yourself and how you are benefiting this ummah.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-30-2012, 05:03 AM
if knowledge was always beneficial then Prophet saw wont tell us to abstain from knowledge which is not beneficial. you cant be more truthful than the Prophet.

salam
Reply

sofiap
06-30-2012, 09:18 AM
the problems we are having is due to no discipline towards the opposite gender, We should never stop praying of protection from our weaker selves, the knowsgde that is not beneficial is the knowledge what that Allaah describes..“He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meaning, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (Surah 3:7)
Reply

ardianto
06-30-2012, 09:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
if knowledge was always beneficial then Prophet saw wont tell

us to abstain from knowledge which is not beneficial. you cant be more truthful than the

Prophet.

salam
Every knowledge is beneficial if we can take its benefit.

Which is knowledge that not beneficial? ... If you learn cooking but you never want to go to the kitchen.
Reply

~Zaria~
06-30-2012, 11:42 AM
Assalamu-alaikum,

This is an important topic, considering that there are more and more women working alongside men nowadays.

Its certainly not easy for men to be surrounded by young, attractive women, often dressed to impress in a work-place.

Thus, its the duty of men to make even more effort to limit their interactions with ghair women as far as possible - lowering their gazes and ensuring that the rules for physical contact, including hand-shakes, hugs (also a common custom in western culture), etc are set.

And, its the duty of muslim women who find themselves in the work-place to:
- Firstly, try and find careers that would result in the least interaction with men and ideally directed at the needs of women and children.
- Ensure that they are attired in proper hijab.

It often becomes much easier to implement the 'no hand-shake/ hug unless we are married rule' if you are living Islam in every other aspect of your life:

- If your hijab/ attire, your beard (for men : ) ), the manner in which you interact with others......all reflect that of our Nabi (sallahu alaihi wasalam) - the opinion created of you is already that: 'this is a muslim, who takes his/ her religion very seriously'.

One cannot be socialising with the women-folk during cofee time, inviting the secretary for lunch, spending unnecessary periods of time chatting to the opposite gender in seclusion........and then not expect strange looks for refusing to shake their hands.

Live like a muslim at all times.
And everything else would follow pretty easily, insha Allah.


format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto


One common question in my place is why female medical students seem like avoid gynacology? . But when when people ask them, they do not answer.
Many muslim women tend to stay away from fields such as obstetrics and gynaecology (also surgery) because of the long hours expected during the training years, and thereafter.

Its difficult for a woman to be away from home for 24-28 hour calls (when training) and with the expectancy to be called out at night for most of your career (while there are methods to induce labour, under natural circumstances, babies enter the world at all hours of the day. Alhamdulillah. : ) )
From this point of view - balancing the number one priority to a woman - her family vs. that of her career becomes quite challenging.


:wa:
Reply

White Rose
06-30-2012, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sofiap
falling in love in not a sin... and they married? Masha Allaah, so now they are in a halal relationship? Islam does not stop falling in love,as love is a mercy from Allaah, thecommitting of lust is from shytan,unless the intentions are towards his wife. So if a man falls in love and marries the girl,that is ok, but if a sister likes a boy then its a sin? Im a afraid where sin is concerned, its the same for both parties. They both will suffer the same fate,unless they understand their wrong and repent...yes the children of this ummah are in need for mothers who can give them more time,and also the children of this ummah are in need of characters such as our Prophets. But what do we do? im a believer of 'stay at home mums',only because i believe the importance of little ones having mums full time and mums having great too with the growth of their children.. but this is what i have chosen, you say you are ok with your wife to go to male doctors,but have you ever asked how she would feels..? or are her feelings not to be even considered?

what we are forgetting is that women are human beings too,they are not robots...Again i will say if you had to go to a woman doctor ,not out of choice and you had a personal problem,how would you feel? to be prodded and poked? Believe me you would wish there was a male doc available. by the way lady Khadijah was a very good business women..what you and your wife decide to do is between you. I would suggest both parties before they marry knows what the other intentions/requirements are.
Good post Masha Allah
Reply

Asiyah3
06-30-2012, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
I disagree, women today have chosen haraam professions which muslim women don't need, like Accountants, lawyers, engineers, IT professionals, how does that benefit the muslim ummah or muslim women????

Even if they choose so called halaal professions like teaching or medicine, many of them don't have the right intention anyway. They end up teaching teenage boys, becoming GP's working with and mixing with Ghair Mahram men, first and foremost the universities are a mixed environment and one of the greatest fitnah's of our time. Everyone know what these women do in university well the majority atleast. I know a muslim niqaabi doctor who went to uni with her niqaab, fell in love with a fellow student and married him, so much for intentions?????

This is only the tip of the Ice berg, then you have other complications where she can't take care of her kids because she has a profession and busy schedule so she has to dump them in some creche or daycare. Call me paranoid but I would rather have my wife go to a male doctor once in a while where there really isn't any prolonged chance of fitnah than dump her in some haraam workplace that will destroy her aakhirah and that of her children. The children of this ummah are begging for mothers like Khadijah RA, do you think these western universities are gonna give them that????????


Not a chance........:raging:
Please be careful of making things halal and haram, for that itself is more serious, and dangerous than women getting educated.
Reply

Paprika
07-04-2012, 06:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Asiyah3
Please be careful of making things halal and haram, for that itself is more serious, and dangerous than women getting educated.
So it's perfectly permissible to work in a mixed environment without any need what so ever, pursuing careers and wealth of this world at the detriment of aakhirah when it is clearly known that the Nabi of Allah SAW has said it is better for women to stay at home???
Reply

Paprika
07-04-2012, 06:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
if knowledge was always beneficial then Prophet saw wont tell us to abstain from knowledge which is not beneficial. you cant be more truthful than the Prophet.

salam
So the Prophet Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam asked muslim women to become doctors, engineers and lawyers???
*Shakes head* How the ummah has been brain washed into chasing the wealth of this world, I bet most of these people chasing these worldly degrees can't even read quran properly then they talk about gaining knowledge. Wallahi if you want true knowledge study deen, you will grow old, grey and bent but you will only be scratching the surface........
Reply

ardianto
07-04-2012, 07:02 AM
Brother Paprika,

Ulama need many references from Qur'an, sunnah, ijma, etc, before they say "it's haram" or "it's halal". So, do not too easy to say "haram" or "halal".
Reply

Paprika
07-04-2012, 07:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Brother Paprika,

Ulama need many references from Qur'an, sunnah, ijma, etc, before they say "it's haram" or "it's halal". So, do not too easy to say "haram" or "halal".
So then if it is not haraam then it must be halaal to work in an unislamic environment without any genuine reason???
All my life I believed that women should stay at home, this is how an Islamic society is built, it's what we have been taught in madressah. A muslim home where there is taqwa, where every person knows his role. Husband goes to work, earns halaal risq, wife stays at home takes care of the kids and the house, teaching them islamic etiquette, a life where there is harmony, barakah and rahmah of Allah. Now these western ideologies come here and tell me women should go to work it's not HARAAM!!!!!

I may not be an Alim, but I am not blind, I know what Nabi Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam has taught and encouraged. I will hold on to these teachings with dear life and will not let anyone tell me otherwise. Send your daughters and wives into these kafir institutions if you so wish, I would rather die than sacrifice this sunnah. I have many shortcomings in me and I accept I am not perfect and do not follow every sunnah, but two wrongs don't make a right. I will not allow my wife or daugthers to end up in the laps of the kufaar showing off their bodies for a mere world gain or promotion.......
Reply

Paprika
07-04-2012, 08:10 AM
falling in love in not a sin...:)
Really?? So I can fall in love and have a little romance before marriage, maybe even courtship and it's not sin???? I am amazed at the things I hear these days especially coming from muslims.:enough!:

you say you are ok with your wife to go to male doctors,but have you ever asked how she would feels..? or are her feelings not to be even considered?
Nice excuse, but I would rather have her feel awkward a few times in her life going to a male doctor than sacrifice her entire life feeling awkward working with ghair mahram men. Even the ulema have said it is permissible for a woman to see a male doctor if need be, besides there are plenty non muslim women doctors. So why should I sacrifice my wifes or daughters aakhirah so a few women can feel comfortable??? I am sorry but my duty is towards my family first, I am the shepherd of my flock. Do you think any of those muslim women would care if my family was destroyed in making them feel less awkward?? Like hell they won't......

Again i will say if you had to go to a woman doctor ,not out of choice and you had a personal problem,how would you feel? to be prodded and poked? Believe me you would wish there was a male doc available.
Yes I would feel awkward, but am I prepared to sacrifice my aakhirah for a fews moments of comfort and ease??? No, I am not. Would I rush and send my sons to become doctors so a few men won't feel awkward?? No I will not. Even if I do allow them to become doctors it will not be their first priority in life and with men it's different they have to work to earn a living so a medical profession will be just like any other profession.
by the way lady Khadijah was a very good business women..:)
Prior to the advent of Islam and her marriage to Rasool Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam after which she gave her entire business to him which he eventually ended up giving in charity.
Reply

Roasted Cashew
07-04-2012, 09:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
So why should I sacrifice my wifes or daughters aakhirah so a few women can feel comfortable??? I am sorry but my duty is towards my family first, I am the shepherd of my flock. Do you think any of those muslim women would care if my family was destroyed in making them feel less awkward?? Like hell they won't......
Typical selfish backward thinking....your daughters and wife are not goats..They too have certain feelings and emotions. How about you go for a private part examination to a female doctor.
Reply

Paprika
07-04-2012, 09:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
Typical selfish backward thinking....your daughters and wife are not goats..They too have certain feelings and emotions. How about you go for a private part examination to a female doctor.
Allah forbid but if the need arose and if there are no male doctors I would. The sunnah nowadays seems backwards, nauzubillah.

"Islam began as something strange, and it shall return to being something strange, so give glad tidings to the strangers."
Reply

Asiyah3
07-04-2012, 10:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
So it's perfectly permissible to work in a mixed environment without any need what so ever,
It's just as unacceptable for a man to work in a mixed environment than a woman. It applies both to men and women. Sins are the same size for men and women.

Regarding it's permissibility I haven't said it's halal or haram. I'm not a scholar to give fatwas.

pursuing careers and wealth of this world at the detriment of aakhirah when it is clearly known that the Nabi of Allah SAW has said it is better for women to stay at home???
Some jobs have sins, not all. While some men or women earn haram money, such as those working in a haram bank, many men and women do have halal jobs. Only some jobs are on the risk of our Aakhirah.

For example, I am a dental student. InshaAllah, after I graduate I could work in a school, fixing children's teeth.

Personally, I think it's preferable to stay at home. But I believe a woman's iman and closeness to Allah are much more important things than if she's working or not. Sadly, many women staying home, use a big amount of their time in watching tv series, and other waste.
Reply

Asiyah3
07-04-2012, 10:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
So the Prophet Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam asked muslim women to become doctors, engineers and lawyers???
*Shakes head* How the ummah has been brain washed into chasing the wealth of this world, I bet most of these people chasing these worldly degrees can't even read quran properly then they talk about gaining knowledge. Wallahi if you want true knowledge study deen, you will grow old, grey and bent but you will only be scratching the surface........
"chasing worldly degrees", you say.
I have never ever heard a scholar look down to people's degrees. If we all were to become religious scholars, who would make us our clothes, who would build our houses and take care of our health?

Let's respect each other, and not look down to others. If this is how you look at others, I will not be responding and wasting my time in this thread anymore.

:wa:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-04-2012, 03:26 PM
I found this interesting:

I'm sorry, But I don't shake hands!!

Not Just Friends: Protect Your Relationships from Infidelity And Heal the Trauma of Betrayal


"I'm sorry, but I don’t shake hands with members of the opposite sex." This line can be heard coming from Muslims working in office settings everywhere.

Islamic standards of modesty warn against even casual physical contact between unmarried men and women. This, of course, can cause uncomfortable situations in places of business where it is customary to shake hands with colleagues. But Muslims have long known that even casual, seemingly innocuous contact as well as casual behavior between the sexes can lead a person astray into either marital infidelity or inappropriate pre-marital relationships.


Until recently, it seemed that it was only Muslims that felt this way. But in her book, Not Just Friends: Protect Your Relationships From Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal, Shirley Glass gives credence to time-honored Muslim traditions on the issue of inter-gender office relations.


Glass' main thesis is, for all intents and purposes, Islamic in character. She asserts that unguarded, casual office relationships between men and women often lead down a slippery slope towards extra-marital affairs. And according to Glass, this phenomenon does not apply solely to the spouse with a wandering eye; even strong, nurturing marriages can be rocked by office romances.


Glass, who has studied martial infidelity over the last 25 years of her career as a psychotherapist, found that 25 percent of women and 44 percent of men have strayed from their marriages. And although the clich� of the office romance has been around for quite some time, Glass says that the typical lustful physical relationships that often develop are but one aspect of illicit office behavior. For Glass, it is the more personal friendships that develop in the office environment that pose a greater threat to marital stability.


Speaking recently to Connie Chung on CNN, Glass noted, "The crisis is that men and women are working with people that they respect, people that they have intellectual interests with, people that they share excitement over projects, frustration over deadlines. And so the relationship begins as a platonic friendship that's very deep and rich. And what happens is that, over time, they begin to share more and more of their personal lives together."


This type of intimate sharing of personal thoughts and feelings is, Glass asserts, more detrimental to marriage because, unlike casual sexual encounters, these interactions create strong bonds between the people. And once this level of personal intimacy grows, the dreaded sexual affair is just on the horizon.

For Glass, the answer to this problem is to establish what she calls "walls and windows" by which married couples agree to keep emotional distance from people outside the marriage while keeping open channels within the marriage.

The resemblance to Islamic standards of modesty is uncanny, although Glass does fail to call for the true Islamic solution, which erects clear boundaries between the permissible and impermissible.


Glass is just one of several authors to recently take a more conservative track regarding marriage and relationships. And in many instances, themes that have elements of solid Islamic common sense are finding favor over the more liberal trends that have predominated in popular culture.

Shirley Glass
Reply

syed_z
07-04-2012, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
Really?? So I can fall in love and have a little romance before marriage, maybe even courtship and it's not sin???? I am amazed at the things I hear these days especially coming from muslims.

Book 11, Number 2077:
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:


The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you asked a woman in marriage, if he is able to look at what will induce him to marry her, he should do so. He (Jabir) said: I asked a girl in marriage, I used to look at her secretly, until I looked at what induced me to marry her. I, therefore, married her.

(Sunan Abu Dawud)

Liking some one before marriage is a must otherwise you'll break the house as soon as you marry without knowing the person when you find out as soon as you marry that person is completely opposite of how you are. Then there are 2 options either your marriage would end up in divorce or the other person will have to live with you forcibly and that is NOT the concept of marriage in Islam. There has to be harmony.

I do not mean dating like western culture when i say knowing the person.

Dr Zakir Naik said in one of his speeches that Prophet (saw) said "When a man a woman are alone the 3rd among them is Satan." .... therefore in order to avoid Shaytan, a guardian should be allowed to sit in the middle, and then the boy should talk to the girl and should try to figure out whether there does exist some understanding. And if it does then well and good.



And about shaking hands, i am not discussing that because touching a woman before marriage is completely unacceptable.

Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
07-05-2012, 01:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
Really?? So I can fall in love and have a little romance before marriage, maybe even courtship and it's not sin???? I am amazed at the things I hear these days especially coming from muslims.:enough!:
Falling in love and having a romance before marriage are two completely different things. Falling in love is an action of the heart. Romance is an action of the limbs. The Book nor the Messenger (saw) forbade love - it's something the heart does and the heart is not taken into account for what it feels. If you believe otherwise - bring your proof.
Reply

Paprika
07-05-2012, 07:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muraad
Falling in love and having a romance before marriage are two completely different things. Falling in love is an action of the heart. Romance is an action of the limbs. The Book nor the Messenger (saw) forbade love - it's something the heart does and the heart is not taken into account for what it feels. If you believe otherwise - bring your proof.
So you are telling me you can go to uni, see a woman in full niqaab and just fall in love??? with what?? how?? bring your proof.....
Reply

Paprika
07-05-2012, 07:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Asiyah3
"chasing worldly degrees", you say.
I have never ever heard a scholar look down to people's degrees. If we all were to become religious scholars, who would make us our clothes, who would build our houses and take care of our health?

Let's respect each other, and not look down to others. If this is how you look at others, I will not be responding and wasting my time in this thread anymore.

:wa:
If you wanna go work, just go and do it don't justify it by whatever means possible, that is my message, thats all. Muslims today have an inferiority complex, chasing after the kufaar and trying to equal them in their worldly pursuits. We often hear kids saying they wanna be like this soccer player or that kaffir sports star, women who want to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, brothers want to become millionaires, have multiple businesses etc. but how often do you hear a muslim person wants to become pious like the Sahaba RA????

We often just give it lip service thats as far as we will go. We are very easily content with our spirituality but never content with our materiality. What annoys me most is that we belittle the sunnah and totally disregard that which Rasool Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam has said is better for us. Like it is better for women to stay at home, but who needs what's better????

I am equally guilty and I don't think I am better than anyone else, but for the most part I just wish we could accept it and not try to justify it and accept it as our own weakness. If I am a woman and I go to work then I should accept that I have given up what is better for me due to my own human weakness and understanding and not look for every fatwa in the book to make myself feel better than no I am not wrong even though I am doing that which is contrary to the hadith of Rasool Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam.

May Allah Swt guide us. Ameen.
Reply

Aprender
07-05-2012, 08:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
Like it is better for women to stay at home, but who needs what's better????
And if society worked in the way that it did back then perhaps more women would be ABLE to stay at home. We're living in times now where there are converts who are brought up in different societal systems that don't exactly allow for her to stay at home. Many men, Muslim or not, can't even find a job that makes enough to pay the bills and put food on the table for themselves let alone a wife and child.

We're not living in the time of a caliphate and I think it's wrong to overgeneralize and call a woman weak for having to work. Sure, I'd love to get married someday and stay home and bake cookies and smile and if I had children teach them Quran and do whatever else I needed to do with the help of Allah (swt) to be a good Muslim, wife and mother. But I am not married and my entire family is non-Muslim. And that's something that I have to be patient with.

Sometimes life doesn't work out so nicely to where there is a man to take care of our needs in that way but life goes on...
Reply

ardianto
07-05-2012, 08:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
So you are telling me you can go to uni, see a woman in full niqaab and just fall in love??? with what?? how?? bring your proof.....
My cousin studied in another city. He joint a campus Muslim organization where he meet a hijabi sister. They attracted to each other. So, they told the sister wali, told their murabbi ("guide Islamic teacher"), and got married although they were still studied in university. Later, when his wife got pregnant, he back to his city and told his parents that he had been married. ;D

That's happened in middle of 90's. Now they have two daughters, and he become area manager in a big company.
Reply

Paprika
07-05-2012, 09:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
And if society worked in the way that it did back then perhaps more women would be ABLE to stay at home. We're living in times now where there are converts who are brought up in different societal systems that don't exactly allow for her to stay at home. Many men, Muslim or not, can't even find a job that makes enough to pay the bills and put food on the table for themselves let alone a wife and child.

We're not living in the time of a caliphate and I think it's wrong to overgeneralize and call a woman weak for having to work. Sure, I'd love to get married someday and stay home and bake cookies and smile and if I had children teach them Quran and do whatever else I needed to do with the help of Allah (swt) to be a good Muslim, wife and mother. But I am not married and my entire family is non-Muslim. And that's something that I have to be patient with.

Sometimes life doesn't work out so nicely to where there is a man to take care of our needs in that way but life goes on...
Very well I understand that. In cases of NEED I can't agree more. Unfortunately though I know of girls who come from rich families, multi millionairs who are studying and getting into careers and in most of these cases they don't even marry poor so what is there excuse??

Let me tell you this much they are not short of excuses.......ask them for one they will give you ten, but excuses remain just that, poor excuses.
Reply

Paprika
07-05-2012, 09:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
My cousin studied in another city. He joint a campus Muslim organization where he meet a hijabi sister. They attracted to each other. So, they told the sister wali, told their murabbi ("guide Islamic teacher"), and got married although they were still studied in university. Later, when his wife got pregnant, he back to his city and told his parents that he had been married. ;D

That's happened in middle of 90's. Now they have two daughters, and he become area manager in a big company.
Attraction isn't love, but anyway I am happy for them, I really am.
Reply

Asiyah3
07-05-2012, 11:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
If you wanna go work, just go and do it don't justify it by whatever means possible, that is my message, thats all.
Brother seriously. You make it sound like I'd be doing something haraam. I have never heard any reputed scholar say women working is haraam, are you BETTER THAN THEM TO MAKE FATWAH?? Have you studied Islam more to make up your own rules?! I have heard scholars encourage women to stay home and take care of their children. I have also heard scholars talk against women working in certain jobs, like modelling. That is true. But that is completely different to what you are saying. There is nothing to justify, as there is absolutely nothing wrong if she wants to work, as long as her job is halal.

If you want, you may speak against mixed environments, male and female workers staying alone etc. and I will understand you better. But you can't say that working itself, such as me fixing a child's tooth is haram!

A wife of a sahabi used to go out helping her husband, women were helping at the times of war, Khadeejah was a business woman (she was working!), a woman used to clean the mosque at the time of the Prophet (SAAS)...

Muslims today have an inferiority complex, chasing after the kufaar and trying to equal them in their worldly pursuits. We often hear kids saying they wanna be like this soccer player or that kaffir sports star,
Let's not bring other topics into this.

women who want to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, brothers want to become millionaires, have multiple businesses etc. but how often do you hear a muslim person wants to become pious like the Sahaba RA????
What's wrong with wanting to become a doctor, lawyer or engineer as long as the job doesn't entail haram things? Men can become doctors, but not women?

We often just give it lip service thats as far as we will go. We are very easily content with our spirituality but never content with our materiality. What annoys me most is that we belittle the sunnah and totally disregard that which Rasool Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam has said is better for us. Like it is better for women to stay at home, but who needs what's better????
It is BETTER, and you may encourage that, but it's a different matter when you talk of it as something HARAM?

I am equally guilty and I don't think I am better than anyone else, but for the most part I just wish we could accept it and not try to justify it and accept it as our own weakness. If I am a woman and I go to work then I should accept that I have given up what is better for me due to my own human weakness and understanding and not look for every fatwa in the book to make myself feel better than no I am not wrong even though I am doing that which is contrary to the hadith of Rasool Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam.
Is that woman disobeying Allah (swt) or the Prophet (SAAS)? No. But is it better for her to stay home? Yes.

It is better for a brother to get married when he is young. But is he disobeying Allah (swt) or the Prophet (SAAS) if there is no fear in him falling into zina, and he delays it without a need (and that is contrary to the hadith of the Prophet SAAS)?

What I'm trying to point here is that a recommendation(such as women staying home, or men marrying early) and a prohibition are two different things.

May Allah Swt guide us. Ameen.
Ameen.
Reply

ardianto
07-05-2012, 01:00 PM
Sometime I helped old women to cross the street or up/down the stair. And I always gave my hand, so they could hold my hand if they need. When a young woman got motorcycle accident I hugged her to help her up.

I know which permissible, which impermissible.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-05-2012, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Sometime I helped old women to cross the street or up/down the stair. And I always gave my hand, so they could hold my hand if they need. When a young woman got motorcycle accident I hugged her to help her up.

I know which permissible, which impermissible.
In times of calamities rules do change :)
Reply

ardianto
07-05-2012, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
In times of calamities rules do change :)
In the case of emergency, haram can be halal.

But unfortunately, there are Muslims who easy to declare a situation as "case of emergency".
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-05-2012, 05:04 PM
^ lol also too true, we must be careful not to do anything apart from when forced by situation
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
07-05-2012, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
So you are telling me you can go to uni, see a woman in full niqaab and just fall in love??? with what?? how?? bring your proof.....
Yup. That's exactly what I'm telling you.

I don't think you get the concept of emotions vs rationale. You can't prove emotions, they're not rational. It's not hard to fall in love. That's why the Prophet (saw) said in the authentic hadeeth that the best thing for two people who love each other is marriage. Do you understand? If he's telling two lovers to get married, than means he's not forbidding love before marriage because he (saw) knows that it's not something you can control.

Now, I'm still waiting for you to prove to me that the Book and the Sunnah have prohibited falling in love before marriage :)
Reply

Paprika
07-06-2012, 08:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Asiyah3
Brother seriously. You make it sound like I'd be doing something haraam. I have never heard any reputed scholar say women working is haraam, are you BETTER THAN THEM TO MAKE FATWAH?? Have you studied Islam more to make up your own rules?! I have heard scholars encourage women to stay home and take care of their children. I have also heard scholars talk against women working in certain jobs, like modelling. That is true. But that is completely different to what you are saying. There is nothing to justify, as there is absolutely nothing wrong if she wants to work, as long as her job is halal.

If you want, you may speak against mixed environments, male and female workers staying alone etc. and I will understand you better. But you can't say that working itself, such as me fixing a child's tooth is haram!

A wife of a sahabi used to go out helping her husband, women were helping at the times of war, Khadeejah was a business woman (she was working!), a woman used to clean the mosque at the time of the Prophet (SAAS)...


Let's not bring other topics into this.


What's wrong with wanting to become a doctor, lawyer or engineer as long as the job doesn't entail haram things? Men can become doctors, but not women?


It is BETTER, and you may encourage that, but it's a different matter when you talk of it as something HARAM?


Is that woman disobeying Allah (swt) or the Prophet (SAAS)? No. But is it better for her to stay home? Yes.

It is better for a brother to get married when he is young. But is he disobeying Allah (swt) or the Prophet (SAAS) if there is no fear in him falling into zina, and he delays it without a need (and that is contrary to the hadith of the Prophet SAAS)?

What I'm trying to point here is that a recommendation(such as women staying home, or men marrying early) and a prohibition are two different things.


Ameen.
1400 years of Islam and only in the last 20 - 30 yrs have muslim women ventured in the workplace. Are you telling me in the 1400 yrs since the beginning of Islam people were stupid or didn't understand Islam?? Hayaa and morality was much stronger back then than it is today, so if any woman wanted to work it would have been better back then, but they chose not to, why??

It was obvious, they new the seriousness of the issue and decided to remain at home because a woman is closer to Allah in her own home and not even in the haramain. (Heard in a lecture by Sheikh Sulaiman Moola). So why would she still choose to work if there is no need??

Anyway I think I am done here. Every person shall face the consequences of their own actions in this world and the next. I wish career women well I just hope they don't end up old, grey and bent in some old age home crying to Allah Swt asking where they went wrong. As far as I can help it no woman in my family will venture into the kafir working world, Insha Allah.
Reply

Paprika
07-06-2012, 08:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muraad
Yup. That's exactly what I'm telling you.

I don't think you get the concept of emotions vs rationale. You can't prove emotions, they're not rational. It's not hard to fall in love. That's why the Prophet (saw) said in the authentic hadeeth that the best thing for two people who love each other is marriage. Do you understand? If he's telling two lovers to get married, than means he's not forbidding love before marriage because he (saw) knows that it's not something you can control.

Now, I'm still waiting for you to prove to me that the Book and the Sunnah have prohibited falling in love before marriage :)
Nauzibillah, if that is what you think of the Nabi of Allah :saws1: then I do not wish to engage in any further discussion with you. I do not wish to harbour ill feelings towards another muslim. May Allah Swt guide us. Ameen.
Reply

Paprika
07-06-2012, 08:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muraad
Yup. That's exactly what I'm telling you.

I don't think you get the concept of emotions vs rationale. You can't prove emotions, they're not rational. It's not hard to fall in love. That's why the Prophet (saw) said in the authentic hadeeth that the best thing for two people who love each other is marriage. Do you understand? If he's telling two lovers to get married, than means he's not forbidding love before marriage because he (saw) knows that it's not something you can control.

Now, I'm still waiting for you to prove to me that the Book and the Sunnah have prohibited falling in love before marriage :)
In today’s world, a lot of young people are afflicted by a serious illness that is even more deadly than any virus or bacteria. It is an illness that affects the heart and will cause its death, if not treated. This illness is none other than love before marriage, and it is with great sadness that a lot of youth fail to realize that in reality there is no such thing as “true” love before marriage, yes, there might be crushes, infatuations and the likes, but true love? No.

Some people might argue and say, how can you make such a bold statement? To that I reply, love is what creates happiness not sorrow, love is what gives you a peace of mind not worry and anguish but most importantly, love is that which brings you closer to Allaah the Most High, not that which will push you further away from Him and acquire His wrath. Yet there are a few brothers and sisters, who truly love Allaah, only to find their hearts crippled by this disease, they have apparently fallen in “love” with the opposite gender (before marriage) and can’t seem to stop thinking about them, they lose their appetite, their sleep and become neglectful of life as a whole.These individuals sometimes regret falling in love and want a way out, they want a cure for this illness, but is there really a cure?

Listen to what Imaam Ibn al-Qayyim has to say:

“And the cure for this deadly illness (i.e. love before marriage) is for the person that is afflicted to realize that this love is only due to his/her own delusions and ignorance.

So upon such a person is to first and foremost strengthen their Tawheed and reliance upon Allaah, and secondly to increase in worship and busy themselves with it, so much so that they do not have any spare time letting their minds wander and think about their beloved.

And they should call upon Allaah to protect them and save them from this evil, just as Prophet Yusuf called upon Allaah and he was saved. And they should do as he did, be as he was, in terms of ikhlaas (sincerity) and remembering Allaah in abundance.

This is because if the heart is filled with ikhlaas for the sake of Allaah, there will be no space left for any unlawful love to be present, rather this only happens to a heart that is empty and has no ikhlaas whatsoever.

And let such people remind themselves that whatever Allaah has decreed for them is only in their own best interests, and when Allaah commands something it is never to cause harm or misery to His slaves.

And let them also remind themselves that their unlawful love does not benefit them, neither in this world or the hereafter! As for this world then they will be so preoccupied with their love that it will cripple them and will cause them to live in a fantasy world. And as for the hereafter then it will cause them to be preoccupied with the love of the creation instead of love for the Creator!

These people need to be reminded, that the one who is emerged in something will never see its ill effects, neither will the person who has never experienced such things. The only people who will be able to relate to them are those who have experienced the same thing but have been saved. Such people can look back and realize how evil it is.”

[ad-Daa' wa ad-Dawaa p. 300]

(Via. Bro. Aboo Thabbit, Student at Madeenah Islamic University)
Reply

Asiyah3
07-06-2012, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
Anyway I think I am done here.
Same.

:wa:
Reply

White Rose
07-06-2012, 04:18 PM
Please, every one is entitled to their opinion. If someone doesn't agree with your opinion, then the best thing to is to not answer them. Also, some brothers on here express too much of their opinions so no wonder, sisters get involved. What I don't like is why do some men think they can play the God? You can tell what is good for a woman, but you cannot force her to follow your opinion. Let Allah SWT do that, don't take His place and start telling women what they should or should not do.
Reply

~Zaria~
07-06-2012, 04:52 PM
12 : 23 : 18
Day Hr Min


........before Ramadaan.


And we are now in the blessed month of Shabaan......



ن كان يؤمن بالله واليوم الآخر فليقل خيرا أو ليصمت

“Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day let him speak good or remain silent.[Bukhari and Muslim]


:wa:
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
07-06-2012, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paprika
Nauzibillah, if that is what you think of the Nabi of Allah :saws1: then I do not wish to engage in any further discussion with you. I do not wish to harbour ill feelings towards another muslim. May Allah Swt guide us. Ameen.
Lol - let's not be emotional here bro. There are other ahadeeth where the Prophet (saw) spoke about love - look into the story of Mugheeth and Bareerah. That is what the scholars extracted from the hadeeth and wrote books on love themselves.

As for your second post, I don't reply to copy and paste jobs. It's a good read but still doesn't negate the fact that people can fall in love before marriage.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
07-06-2012, 10:51 PM
Sorry didn't realize this thread was closed.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!