Reincarnation

[diarfitri88]

Assalamualaikum fellow brothers and sisters,

I would like to ask the Muslims, what do you think of Hindu's concept of reincarnation? My best friend is a devotee of the Hare Krishna movement. I had a talk with him regarding this and he told me that our belief of rebirth is illogical. He do not see the logic in living, then die and brought back to live again. I told him that I respect his belief but I reject it.

I told him since the concept of reincarnation is doing good deeds and from my understanding, the best form to reincarnate into is a to be a human being. Now, we all know human population is increasing, and the sins of the world is increasing too. How does this concept hold any truth now? But my best friend explains to me that if we dig our hands into the sand and pull it out, we can find many insects and he believed there are plenty of ants around. I agree. But in my mind I was thinking, isn't the whole animal kingdom decreasing? If not, why is there conservation efforts to retain all the animals? It is proven that the animal kingdom is decreasing due to habitat destruction, over-fishing and many other factors. He also points out that if God is merciful why are there people born with disabilities?

Now again the number of people with disability is on the decline, some facts I got from a news article here. So how does the concept of samsara or reincarnation holds any truth? The facts of the world does not support it. I lastly asked my best friend, when will the cycle stop? He answered that when the individual submits to God. So what I'm thinking is from my point of view, only humans have free will. Once you lead a bad life here and reincarnate to be an animal, wouldn't that cycle stop since the whole of nature submits to the will of God?

I do not want to offend my best friend cause he is a good guy, and neither do I want to offend any Hindu brothers here. I just want to hear what are your logical thoughts about reincarnation.

Discuss :statisfie

[Hulk]

I think something simple was made complicated somewhere :hmm:

[~ Sabr ~]

:wasalamex

our belief of rebirth is illogical. He do not see the logic in living, then die and brought back to live again.

His beliefs contradict themselves. He believes in dying then being re-incarnated as other beings, endlessly, but doesn't belive that The Creator can bring back to life what He created first?

What utter nonsense.

[Aprender]

That entire post confused me. ^o)

This is a case where I would apply Occam's Razor...

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[diarfitri88]

That entire post confused me.

This is a case where I would apply Occam's Razor...

Apologies Aprender. May I know exactly what are you confused about?

[~ Sabr ~]

So my reply has no value? Fair enough.

[diarfitri88]

So my reply has no value? Fair enough.

I'm sorry Sister, don't say that, I might have overlooked it.

I agree that it is contradicting. But I am trying my best to look at it from his point of view. However I have failed to see how reincarnation can be considered logical and applicable..

His whole concept of God is confusing. Sometimes I wonder if its worthwhile discussing matters of religion to such person like my best friend.

[Muhaba]

trying to convince him that he's wrong might not get you anywhere. he'll cling to his beliefs. it would be better to tell him of the Islamic beliefs instead. he will himself realize that they make more sense and are true.

show him the verses in the Quran about how life is a test to see who does good and who commits evil and that after death people are in the grave either being punished or are in peace , and one day the whole world will end and then God will raise everyone and call them to account and then the believers who obeyed God and lived a righteouos life will go to heaven and the unbelievers and disobedient people will be punished in Hell. etc.

as for why some people are born disabled, it may be to test mankind to see how those people are treated and to show us that it's possible someone might be disabled so we should be thankful to God for His blessings. finally, God has absolute authority and can do whatever He wants. we human beings have no right to question Him.
Whatever He does is based on Wisdom.

also, one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that sometimes disabilites are the fault of people, although not always. i've seen parents trying to do abortion but failing and then when the baby is born, he/she is disabled because of the abortifieint drugs. or a person might live near something with high radiation that affects the children he/she has. or the person may have a haram source of income and may be punished by getting disabled children. etc.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

the concept of reincarnation is doing good deeds

How does an animal do good deeds?

If a carnivorous lion kills prey to feed his family, is that a good deed or a bad deed, bearing in mind you cannot get non-carnivorous lions.

If a lion growls at another animal coming close to his family, and chases him away, or has to fight him off, is that a good deed or a bad deed?

What kind of good deeds is a rat supposed to do to accumulate good karma?

Who sets the standards of what good and bad deeds are for animals, and where are they set out?

Just some questions to get him thinking...

His whole concept of God is confusing.

We had a Hindu member here before, who told us that Hindu beliefs regarding God vary from:

No God,
One God,
Lots of Gods,
Everything is God (including us)
Everything is God (excluding us)

and that all are correct, God is whatever the devotee wants him to be.

No wonder he is confused.

[dqsunday]

From what I remember of Hinduism is its pretty much a concept more than a religion. There is no set path to follow to the ultimate goal of becoming one with the universe (god). Each reincarnation of the soul is to bring it closer to becoming part of the 'oneness' of the universe or god. Doing good deeds gives a person better karma, doing bad deeds gives bad karma and brings you a step further from the goal of enlightenment and achieving oneness with the universe.

As for animals, they are without consciousness so can't do good or bad deeds, they just do what is in their nature to do. Pretty much eat, avoid being eaten, and procreate. They can't do evil or good as they lack a moral compass as humans and other sentient beings to. A lion doesn't hunt because it is offended the gazelle crossed his line of sight, or didn't stop and bow down before it, or ate his favorite patch of grass. The lion hunts to survive. It doesn't kill for any other reason than to survive and procreate (and yes, i know male lions who chase off or kill another male lion to take over the lion's territory and pride will kill off all the former lion's cubs. The only reason the new lion does this is to ensure he's not defending the other lions offspring. He is driven to procreate his own genes and protect his own cubs, not anothers.) It also ensures the lionesses come into season sooner, if they have no cubs left nursing. Long story short, animals do what they do for very basic survival needs. Nor are they capable of worshiping.

[~ Sabr ~]

My best friend is Hindu. And how has that worked? No talk about religion. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

[abu_ameer]

As Salaamu Alaikum everyone,

First of all, you cannot think from there point of view. Once you do that, you have to accept all the assumptions and premises etc and then you are stuck. As a member already said, Allah can do whatever He wants. We belong to Him. If you made an object or an appliance or even drew something, then that is yours. You can dispose of it as you will. Same way Allah can dispose of us if He wishes. The Hindus can never prove Re-incarnation. Ask your 'friend' what was he before he was a human. We Muslims believe we will be resurrected and that can only be proved once we are dead. This makes more sense.
Also, there are no Hindu brothers at all. Hindu's by nature are those who disbelieve in Allah and they can never be our brothers or sisters. Sometimes advise has to be given in a way that may offend them. Lets face it, if you recite some of the verses of the Quran to non-Muslims, do you think they won't be offended? Islam is superior and lets not be ashamed to say that. I hope that helped.
Jazak Allahu Khair,

[joboman24]

:sl:



How does an animal do good deeds?

If a carnivorous lion kills prey to feed his family, is that a good deed or a bad deed, bearing in mind you cannot get non-carnivorous lions.

If a lion growls at another animal coming close to his family, and chases him away, or has to fight him off, is that a good deed or a bad deed?

What kind of good deeds is a rat supposed to do to accumulate good karma?

Who sets the standards of what good and bad deeds are for animals, and where are they set out?

Just some questions to get him thinking...



We had a Hindu member here before, who told us that Hindu beliefs regarding God vary from:

No God,
One God,
Lots of Gods,
Everything is God (including us)
Everything is God (excluding us)

and that all are correct, God is whatever the devotee wants him to be.

No wonder he is confused.

how is it any different than a human being killing animals and eating meat? Although we leave the work to the people who cut off the chicken or pigs throat we are directly responsible for killing them as we consume. And for human beings it is not necessary to eat animals and meat to survive yet we still slaughter them daily and eat them. What you are saying is a complete contradiction but apparently we have some divine right to kill animals you would say right?

[Hulk]

how is it any different than a human being killing animals and eating meat? Although we leave the work to the people who cut off the chicken or pigs throat we are directly responsible for killing them as we consume. And for human beings it is not necessary to eat animals and meat to survive yet we still slaughter them daily and eat them. What you are saying is a complete contradiction but apparently we have some divine right to kill animals you would say right?

What are you talking about? Sis Insaanah was talking about morality in general and as an example stated that animals can do no right/wrong actions, even if they kill it is out of their natural instincts. We as human beings are capable of right and wrong actions. We can choose whether or not to cause injustice towards others.

Can you explain what the contradiction is?

Or are you saying that killing an animal for food is the same as killing a human being?

[joboman24]

Hulk my contradiction on the previous post based on the fact that it as you say animal kill out of natural instincts to survive. We don't need meat to survive do we? But yet we kill millions of animals daily for chicken, beef, steak or whatever. Why do you consider that not a wrongdoing. You can kill other creatures it is considered no wrong doing but you kill a human being then you go to hell?

[dqsunday]

Human beings are omnivorous and meat is a part of our natural diet. Though we can live without any kind of meat in our diet, its not a healthy diet and supplements are recommended. We, as human beings can choose not to eat meat and find ways to survive without it. Animals can't decide to not eat their natural diet. A lion can't decide to eat grass instead. Nor can a sheep decide eating the annoying herd dog would make a better meal. THough this isn't really the main point of this thread.

[Hulk]

Hulk my contradiction on the previous post based on the fact that it as you say animal kill out of natural instincts to survive. We don't need meat to survive do we? But yet we kill millions of animals daily for chicken, beef, steak or whatever. Why do you consider that not a wrongdoing. You can kill other creatures it is considered no wrong doing but you kill a human being then you go to hell?

Just to clarify, your issue is why "Killing animals for food is not wrong but killing a human being is considered wrong"?

I think you would have made more sense if your stopped at "We don't need meat to survive do we? But yet we kill millions of animals daily for chicken, beef, steak or whatever. Why do you consider that not a wrongdoing."

Killing an animal for food and murdering a human being are obviously two very different things..

As for the morality behind killing animals for food even though we don't need meat. You are right in saying that we don't need meat to survive, but we as human beings are capable of eating meat are we not? It is part of our nature.

Is it wrong to kill an animal for food? No, because I do not place animals on the same level as I place humans and neither do you. If you had to choose between saving the life of a human baby and saving the life of an animal I'm sure you would choose the human baby. If you want to pity an animal for being slaughtered for food why don't you pity vegetables and fruits as well? They're living things as well.

Islam permits the slaughtering of animals for food, but under careful and precise conditions which ensures that the animal will be as comfortable as possible before slaughter. We recognise that the animal is not on the same level as us but it is still a living creature and thus deserve to be treated carefully and respectfully. Not only that, we have a limit on the type of animals that are deemed as halal/permissible. From my understanding, carnivorous animals with fangs are haram/prohibited.

And even after all that, we are to practice moderation and are not supposed to consume meat in excess.

Watch the clip below for a little understanding.

[BadOlPuttyTat]

Reincarnation is a nice idea but has so many holes. The only benefit i would get from reincarnation is coming back as a very smart tiger and and going into some person's house and scare them. But remember this. It is state din the Vedas and Sanatana Dharma (actual name for Hinduism) that when you reincarnate your soul carries over and you live the life of that creature. Wouldn't that mean animals are pretty smart? Animals should have human intelligence but yet they dont. So it all falls apart there.

[diarfitri88]

Wow Hulk, that's an awesome video. Been finding it on youtube! Thanks brother. Really amazing how the sheep remains calm. Mashallah

[diarfitri88]

Been finding it on youtube!

been looking for it*

[~ Sabr ~]

Same thing. Lol.

[joboman24]

Hulk it is not the point to argue whether myself an "agnostic/atheist" believes that whether an animal is any more or less than a human being. I agree that human beings are the most developed and complex form of animals in terms of the human brain. But why does the complexity of the human brain to a less inferior human brain gives us anymore a right to kill them and eat them? If you are eating meat doesn't this directly support the fact that we are animals as well but just a more complex form and since we have the resources to kill other animals inferior in capabilities to us we have the right to? Us killing and eating meat and chicken is just like a lion in the jungle hunting down a deer. They are supreme to the deer in terms of physical and mental capabilities as are us humans compared to chicken and cow or whatever other animal we eat. I believe it is an utter and complete contradiction for any book of religion not specifically stating or directing toward one to talk about morality in such great detail then go and use a double standard/contradiction for their selfish needs. I have been a vegetarian my whole life and I live a completely normal life. I am stronger than 99% of the population because I go to the gym work out and eat healthy food. You are a omnivore or herbivore or a carnivore by choice as a human being not by birth. Most animals do not have that choice as either they cannot either digest certain types of food or simply do not have a choice due to geographical area say in a jungle.

[joboman24]

Hulk then why do we not start practicing cannabilism and give the person before his death a lot of oxycontin and percs and sever his neck with a swift blow? This would be much less painful than any animal that is being killed under "careful" conditions. Honestly how many people actually practice that you and me clearly know that most do not and even if they did it is not justified. So human beings apparently come here only 6000 years ago start slaughtering animals for their food which is justified under the quran as long as they are died a "humanitarian" death. How is any killing humanitarian? There is no such killing as humanitarian. Death is the end of your consciousness life on earth. You are taking away that privilege that the animals have to life just like you would assume it would be wrong for a man to kill another man and take his privilege of life away.
Another question of mine to anyone is since you go to paradise in the afterlife and live a life of eternal happiness and joy why should a person who kills a fellow muslim be sentenced to execution or death? Shouldn't he be paraded around the city for ending someone's misery on this planet earth and who gave the victim a quicker journey to the paradise?

[Hulk]

As I have said before in another post.. Please use paragraphs.

[joboman24]

great response to my post hulk. I am sure it shouldn't be that hard to read a paragraph and responding but you are able to memorize the quran in a month. contradiction don't you think?

[- Qatada -]

joboman, you might be interested; :)

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/185/

[joboman24]

i understand qatada that islam encourages and practices the the humane slaughter of animals....if there is ever such a thing as humane killing which I disagree with but that's another thing since end result is the same..I would just like a direct response to my questions on moral etc on the issues i raised up on my previous posts. thank you

[- Qatada -]

Hi

Morality is according to interpretation. As Muslims, we believe God defines what's allowed, what isn't. We believe God has allowed us to use all that is on Earth for our benefit, while being merciful. So we can use all the resources on the planet without causing excessive pollution which can harm other species, and similarly - God has given us animals which we can use to ride on, to use to eat, and to benefit from their fur, meat, and milk etc.

Another question of mine to anyone is since you go to paradise in the afterlife and live a life of eternal happiness and joy why should a person who kills a fellow muslim be sentenced to execution or death? Shouldn't he be paraded around the city for ending someone's misery on this planet earth and who gave the victim a quicker journey to the paradise?

We as Muslims (meaning: submitters to God) are promised a happy life in this world as obedient servants of God, who encourage people to do good and prevent them from evil and vices (again, according to the guidance of the religion.) We are forbidden by God to kill fellow Muslims, they are our brothers/sisters, and that allows society to function well and nicely.

Anyone who obeys the guidance is promised a happy and pleasing life in this world, and a pleasing one in the life to come. This is because the guidance given to us is for our own betterment, a guide to live a harmonious life. It is our test in this world to strive to do good, even if others (including our self urges or other people) who might tell us to do otherwise. This is the nature of the test - to remain loyal and sincere to God through easy and difficult times.

So since God has told us that the blood of another Muslim is sacred, we are forbidden from spilling it. We are commanded to be supporters of each other, supporters of the guidance. That will open the way for us to have a pleasing life in this world, and an even better one in Paradise.

[dqsunday]

So since God has told us that the blood of another Muslim is sacred, we are forbidden from spilling it. We are commanded to be supporters of each other, supporters of the guidance. That will open the way for us to have a pleasing life in this world, and an even better one in Paradise.

This also means our own blood..ie suicide.

very good response overall Brother Qatada

[joboman24]

i guess that's where our difference comes. You use morality because a book said so I use morality with my brain.

[- Qatada -]

i guess that's where our difference comes. You use morality because a book said so I use morality with my brain.

Just some food for thought; You are a product of what your society has taught you, just like Muslims are a product of their society, Islam, and intellect.

There's no such thing as pure rationalism. Our thoughts are always influenced by what we've been taught by those surrounding us since childhood. :)

[CosmicPathos]

joboman: how can you be so sure that the morality your brain is telling you the right one. Certainly, your neurotransmitters in substantia nigra, hippocampus, frontal cortex could be whack and yet what you think might seem moral to you. I mean, really, you have that much blind faith in the perfectness of your brain's functioning?

[joboman24]

Just some food for thought; You are a product of what your society has taught you, just like Muslims are a product of their society, Islam, and intellect.

There's no such thing as pure rationalism. Our thoughts are always influenced by what we've been taught by those surrounding us since childhood. :)

Qatatda I don't disagree at all that there is any such thing as pure rationalism. Also qatada if I was a product of what society has taught me I would be a devoted hindu still believing in God. I would also be taking a major in becoming a doctor, engineer, or some IB. Yet I am an agnostic and a major in philosophy everything that goes against what my family wants me to be or what they raised me up to be. Close to nothing has influenced me Qatada in life. I observe everything there is to in life then with my own brain which i consider to be rational over a period of observation of society seeing which things could be rational and which things could amount up to be rational I then make my own decisions.

[joboman24]

joboman: how can you be so sure that the morality your brain is telling you the right one. Certainly, your neurotransmitters in substantia nigra, hippocampus, frontal cortex could be whack and yet what you think might seem moral to you. I mean, really, you have that much blind faith in the perfectness of your brain's functioning?

Cosmic it is hillarious that you keep arguing the functions of the brain when yet you blindly believe in a god that you have never seen but just in the pure blind faith that one day after you die you will see him. Morality to me is an unbiased opinion of nature through my own unbiased observations of it. That is the best I or any other human being can do since we only have certain capabilities. Who knows my brain might be out of whack right? But I trust my brain rather than God or Santa Claus or the tooth fairy.

[Hulk]

Joboman, if you find a watch in the middle of a desert. With your "rational" brain what are all the information you can deduce out of it?

[- Qatada -]

Qatatda I don't disagree at all that there is any such thing as pure rationalism. Also qatada if I was a product of what society has taught me I would be a devoted hindu still believing in God. I would also be taking a major in becoming a doctor, engineer, or some IB. Yet I am an agnostic and a major in philosophy everything that goes against what my family wants me to be or what they raised me up to be. Close to nothing has influenced me Qatada in life. I observe everything there is to in life then with my own brain which i consider to be rational over a period of observation of society seeing which things could be rational and which things could amount up to be rational I then make my own decisions.

I'm really glad you're opening your mind up to newer ideas, but also ask yourself this - which philosophy have you taken instead of your hindu culture? You've taken the western paradigm as your ideal standard to judge other beliefs. One of the reasons why this paradigm is popular in the world today is due to western culture dominating all countries including India.

I'm not going to judge you because you seem like a really good person, but I will ask you to keep an open mind on this forum to the possibility of Islam being true. Why? Simply because Islam is an alternative and does make good sense, in some ways even more than western philosophy.

[joboman24]

Joboman, if you find a watch in the middle of a desert. With your "rational" brain what are all the information you can deduce out of it?

Is it just a random watch that i see lying in the middle of a desert or is there a significance to it like I am trying to survive and the watch is the only thing that is there and I need to deduce the information to it?

[joboman24]

I'm really glad you're opening your mind up to newer ideas, but also ask yourself this - which philosophy have you taken instead of your hindu culture? You've taken the western paradigm as your ideal standard to judge other beliefs. One of the reasons why this paradigm is popular in the world today is due to western culture dominating all countries including India.

I'm not going to judge you because you seem like a really good person, but I will ask you to keep an open mind on this forum to the possibility of Islam being true. Why? Simply because Islam is an alternative and does make good sense, in some ways even more than western philosophy.

Hello qatada I haven't adopted any specific kind of philosophy. I am much more of an Indian than an american in terms of how my overall personality and behavior is since I was born and brought up in India until I was 10 years old and hindi was my first language. To your second part of it to be honest I mean I will have as much of an open mind or a belief to islam as I would with hinduism, judaism, or any other religion. There is a lot of good things that you can take away from each of these books, I mean personally I would take what I think are the good things away from it and throw the bad away. But personally just because a book has a good amount of wise sayings in it and then says in the end that they are a prophet to god. No I refuse to believe that.

[Hulk]

Is it just a random watch that i see lying in the middle of a desert or is there a significance to it like I am trying to survive and the watch is the only thing that is there and I need to deduce the information to it?

it is just a random watch you see lying in the middle of a desert, you are not necessarily in a situation of difficulty in surviving.

[joboman24]

it would literally mean nothing to me then. If I do not need it to survive and if I already have another watch. two options either leave it there forget about it or take it back when you get back to the mainland and give it to the authorities if it is of value and let them handle it.

[Hulk]

er I asked what you can deduce not what you would do.