Hadith rejection and "Ma malakat aymanukum"

[Al-Zaara]

Assalamu alaykum, brothers and sisters


I have recently encountered a young man who refers himself to be a "Quranist" or "hadith rejector".

First off, he rejects hadiths, so yes, I am aware that issue is bigger and needs to be addressed. But his main subject of interest was regarding that he claimed these words in the Qur'an (more specific Surah An-Nisa verse/ayah 24 and 25) that we understand to refer to slaves, can actually also refer to be that it gives you "permission to have girlfriends/boyfriends".

Anyways, I was wondering if you know of any resources that I could give to him regarding the discussion of the meaning of "ma malakat aynukum" or to refute "hadith rejectors"?

I apologize if there is a thread like this already. JazakAllahu khayrun and may Allah subhana wa ta'ala keep us steadfast in the Deen, keep us on the Right Path and not let our nafs win! Amiin.

[Insaanah]

:sl: sister,

Firstly, it's very nice to meet you and see another oldie return. I hope you'll stay around inshaa'Allah.

I'm sure others will be able to help you with more scholarly answers, or direct you to some good resources, but you can show him that his idea holds no weight using the Qur'an itself.

Surah al-Maa'idah (ayah 5), shows girlfriends/boyfriends are not allowed, so it cannot mean that:

Sahih International
This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Muhsin Khan
Made lawful to you this day are At-Tayyibat [all kinds of Halal (lawful) foods, which Allah has made lawful (meat of slaughtered eatable animals, etc., milk products, fats, vegetables and fruits, etc.). The food (slaughtered cattle, eatable animals, etc.) of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) is lawful to you and yours is lawful to them. (Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time, when you have given their due Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girl-friends. And whosoever disbelieves in the Oneness of Allah and in all the other Articles of Faith [i.e. His (Allah's), Angels, His Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and Al-Qadar (Divine Preordainments)], then fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

Pickthall
This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter.

Yusuf Ali
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

Shakir
This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

Dr. Ghali
Today the good things are made lawful for you, and the food of the ones to whom the Book was brought is lawful to you, and your food is made lawful to them. And (so) are believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of (the ones) to whom the Book was brought even before you when you have brought them their rewards in wedlock, other than in fornication, neither taking them to yourselves as mates (i.e., girl-friends). And whoever disbelieves in belief, (i.e., the religion) then his deed has been frustrated and in the Hereafter he is among the losers.

Secondly, looking at the verses he quoted, it says that all married women are forbidden except those whom your right hands possess. So if we substitute the word girlfriend for what your right hands possess, this means that all married women are forbidden, except your girlfriend. Which implies that if your girlfriend was married, she would be an exception to other married women. BUT, that would mean she is being unfaithful to her husband, and you are having an affair and approaching zina, which the Qur'an declares is a big sin. You can see the contradiction here quite easily. Doesn't make sense, does it? This is what happens when you interpret the Qur'an according to your own whims and desires.

The next verse he quoted says : "And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess..." Here, from the context of the verse, it is clear that what your right hand possesses, is not free, because it refers to those who cannot afford to marry free women. The only people that were not free, were slaves/captives.

Also thirdly, if you look where the words "what your right hand possesses" come elsewhere in the Qur'an, and substitute the word girlfriend in there, it makes no sense whatsoever.

That alone shoud be enough, but still, to back that up, we have the ahadeeth. The hadeeth are narrated by those who saw or heard the prophet (peace be upon him) say something. Their accounts are verified, each persons truthfulness, memory, character and accuracy are verified, and we know which people it was transmitted via. Anyone who is known to have lied even once in his lifetime, any hadeeth narrated from him are rejected. No other literature of the era is recorded with such accuracy. It is the highly righteous and knowledgeable scholars who have checked the hadeeth, and ensured that every small detail of the Prophets life is preserved for us to follow.

The onus is on him, to bring his reliable sources, that show that it means girlfriend and that this is how the Prophet :saws: and his companions understood it.

[Muhaba]

^Great response.

also, in Surah Nur Allah says that the fornicatoress and the fornicator are both to be lashed 100 lashes.

24:2
The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

how can the verse about "those whom your right hand possess" be reconsiled with this one if you define "those whom your right hand possess" as girlfriend/boyfriend? According to this verse, sexual relations outside marriage are forbidden and the one guilty of it is to be lashed 100 times.

[Al-Zaara]

Wa alaykum assalam, sister Insaanah

Thank you for your kind words, I've browsed the forum quite a bit now and seen your posts, mashaAllah, I'm very impressed. I'm glad there are members like you who are active. JazakiAllah khayr for your detailed response, very much appreciated and helpful!

WRITER, a very good point mashaAllah, jazakAllah khayr for your contribution!

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[MissK]

Insaanah, each translation that you mentioned uses a different word to refer to "girlfriend." One must admit, there is a huge difference between a girlfriend and a concubine, a lover and a mate. In addition, it says do not take them in secret. What is so secret about having a girlfriend or boyfriend, spending time and getting to know them in public settings, allowing your parents to know about this relationship. I don't think the verses you have quoted in any way fully settle this matter.

Furthermore, as for the hadith, I too have not decided just how much of the hadith's authenticity I believe in either. While I don't reject hadith all together, I do ask where is God's promise to protect and conserve this hadith as he promised to do with Qur'an? It doesn't exist and therefore we are trusting man to deliver messages that are hundreds of years old.

“[The Quran 45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

[MissK]

^Great response.

also, in Surah Nur Allah says that the fornicatoress and the fornicator are both to be lashed 100 lashes.

24:2
The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

how can the verse about "those whom your right hand possess" be reconsiled with this one if you define "those whom your right hand possess" as girlfriend/boyfriend? According to this verse, sexual relations outside marriage are forbidden and the one guilty of it is to be lashed 100 times.

Why do people always discuss sexual relations and adultery when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships? It is very much possible to have a relationship and not have sex, therefore there would be no need for lashings.

[جوري]

Why do people always discuss sexual relations.

How does 'most' and 'always' reconcile with your other post where you appear quite exasperated when someone made a reference which you referred to as a generalization and ignorance?

[Aprender]

Why do people always discuss sexual relations and adultery when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships? It is very much possible to have a relationship and not have sex, therefore there would be no need for lashings.

Because it's commonly accepted in my culture at least that if you're in a relationship with someone you'll most likely end up being intimate with one another. The try it before you buy it method which sometimes results in pregnancy, STDs and other issues. It's rare for a couple that are so in love with each other to not even be tempted to have sex and actually wait until marriage. Many people aren't at all religious and don't care either way.

Hence:
"And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way." [17:32]

[Aprender]

While I don't reject hadith all together, I do ask where is God's promise to protect and conserve this hadith as he promised to do with Qur'an? It doesn't exist and therefore we are trusting man to deliver messages that are hundreds of years old.

This is the most recent argument I've heard against the hadith from Quranists too. For me, I haven't studied the science of hadith preservation so I cannot comment on this. But if this is the argument they're going with then I wonder about the preservation of history all together if that's the case. We're trusting man to deliver historical accounts that are centuries old. We should just reject it all then.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

Insaanah, each translation that you mentioned uses a different word to refer to "girlfriend."

The Muhsin Khan translation I quoted in the post uses the word girlfriend.

One must admit, there is a huge difference between a girlfriend and a concubine, a lover and a mate.

Not really. If not in the context of a lawful marriage, they all boil down to the same thing.

In addition, it says do not take them in secret. What is so secret about having a girlfriend or boyfriend, spending time and getting to know them in public settings, allowing your parents to know about this relationship. I don't think the verses you have quoted in any way fully settle this matter.

It doesn't have to be secret for it to be wrong. To be committed in public is equally wrong:

Say: the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge. (7:33)

Also:

Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." (6:151)

Here it doesn't simply tell us not to commit immoralities, but not even to approach them. Here Allah didn’t say: do not commit immorality or do not commit illegal sexual intercourse. He said do not approach it (be that from near or far), do not come close to whatever makes you fall in this sin. Taking a girlfriend/boyfriend is one of the means to falling into fornication.

In Islam, when something is forbidden, then all avenues which lead to that are forbidden. So, not only is it forbidden to drink alcohol, but to buy it, sell it, transport it, produce it, pour it etc (Jami` at-Tirmidhi 1295)

Similarly, illegal sexual intercourse has been forbidden, and so is anything that might lead to that. That is why there are instructions on lowering one's gaze, women covering themselves and not displaying their adornments or stamping their feet, not softening their voices in front of men who are not their mahrams, a man and woman who are not married to each other or are not mahrams, are not allowed to be alone together, women and men must not mix freely and take girlfirends/boyfriends, and women's walis are responsible for finding them suitable spouses, enquiring about them, and marrying their wards to suitable proposers if she agrees.

Also remember we have two sources of law that go together, hand in hand, the Qur'an and the sunnah as recorded in the authentic ahadeeth.

Furthermore, as for the hadith, I too have not decided just how much of the hadith's authenticity I believe in either.

Before the discussion can be continued, we need to establish the sources of law Islam is based upon, and their importance.

The links are here are very informative. Please read them:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1542902

“[The Quran 45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

Interesting that the only Arabic word that's been kept in this translation is hadeeth. Presumably whoever did this translation has retained the word hadeeth wherever it occurs.

The following verses are worth noting then:

Then leave Me alone with those who reject this Hadeeth: by degrees We shall punish them from directions they perceive not. (68:44)

..It is no invented Hadeeth.. (12:111, part)

[MissK]

How does 'most' and 'always' reconcile with your other post where you appear quite exasperated when someone made a reference which you referred to as a generalization and ignorance?

I'm not 100% sure which post you're referring to but either way, please allow me to correct myself as my question may have appeared to be a generalization and I would hate for you to feel that it reflected even the most minute possibility of ignorance on my part. So, here I will try again: Why do SO MANY PEOPLE THAT I ENCOUNTER discuss sexual relations when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships?

[Insaanah]

Why do SO MANY PEOPLE THAT I ENCOUNTER discuss sexual relations when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships?

This has already been answered in my post, and in sister Aprenders' post, because it is the easiest thing that leads to sexual relations.

[MissK]

a man and woman who are not married to each other or are not mahrams, are not allowed to be alone together, women and men must not mix freely and take girlfirends/boyfriends, and women's walis are responsible for finding them suitable spouses, inquiring about them, and marrying their wards to suitable proposers if she agrees.

First, just because you have a boyfriend/or girlfriend does not mean that you will be alone with them.

Second, I would really like to know what you and anyone else who holds this belief would recommend for the numerous reverts (from the West, in particular) who have no "Wali." I can use myself as an example. My mother and father along with everyone else in my family are Christian and American. It is not part of our current culture to find a spouse for our children. So no one is out looking for someone for me nor do they have any desire to and if they did, they'd be looking for a "good Christian man". Furthermore, my parents and I don't even live in the same country and only God knows when we will live near each other again. Who should serve as my Wali? Or should I just marry any one of the random Arab men that approach me on a daily basis, knowing little about his past family, etc? How does one in this situation or one similar get to know someone before committing to marriage?

Or I can just stay single forever. Although last time I checked, this wasn't recommended. And if marriage is half my deen as hadith tells us, then I really have my work cut out for me!

Or should we take into consideration, changes in time, place and culture; use our minds to make sound decisions as Islam instructs us? I apologize if I sound sarcastic or bitter in any way, but I find that these words are often said but many people do not take into consideration one's individual circumstances or again, the changes that have taken place in our world since the hadith were recorded.

[MissK]

This has already been answered in my post, and in sister Aprenders' post, because it is the easiest thing that leads to sexual relations.

Could it be fair to say that there is a difference between simply having a bf/gf, and having one with the intent to become better acquainted in hopes of marriage?

These relationships lead to sexual relations when they occur in the wrong environment and with the wrong intent.

[MissK]

<span style="font-family: Garamond"><font size="4"><br>
<br>
This has already been answered in my post, and in sister Aprenders' post, because it is the easiest thing that leads to sexual relations.</font></span>

<br><br>Could it be fair to say that there is a difference between simply having a bf/gf, and having one with the intent to become better&nbsp;acquainted&nbsp;in hopes of marriage?<br><br>These relationships lead to sexual relations when they occur in the wrong environment and with the wrong intent.&nbsp;

Because it's commonly accepted in my culture at least that if you're in a relationship with someone you'll most likely end up being intimate with one another. The try it before you buy it method which sometimes results in pregnancy, STDs and other issues. It's rare for a couple that are so in love with each other to not even be tempted to have sex and actually wait until marriage. Many people aren't at all religious and don't care either way.

You're right. Many people are not religious and many don't care. By the same token, many people ARE religious and their chastity is extremely important to them so....what about them?

[جوري]

I'm not 100% sure which post you're referring to but either way, please allow me to correct myself as my question may have appeared to be a generalization and I would hate for you to feel that it reflected even the most minute possibility of ignorance on my part. So, here I will try again: Why do SO MANY PEOPLE THAT I ENCOUNTER discuss sexual relations when referring to girlfriend/boyfriend relationships?

Not a question of content rather needless convolution at any rate I have lost interest and quick glancing over some of your posts -I am confidant though that someone will respond to your queries undoubtedly to your dislike!


Best,

[MissK]

This is the most recent argument I've heard against the hadith from Quranists too. For me, I haven't studied the science of hadith preservation so I cannot comment on this. But if this is the argument they're going with then I wonder about the preservation of history all together if that's the case. We're trusting man to deliver historical accounts that are centuries old. We should just reject it all then.

I don't reject all hadith nor do I accept it all. I don't reject all historical accounts nor do I accept them all. For example, American history would have us believe that the Pilgrims and the Native Americans were the best of friends. Hmmmm...something about them stealing my ancestors land and then all of them feasting together just doesn't add up to me.

I'm still learning a lot about Hadith. From what I learned, I have to question the authenticity of some of them which are considered sound as many of them go against the teachings of the Quran, or at minimum, the spirit of the Quran. This is why I ask so many questions about them. So my current solution is to go back to the Qur'an as the final word, use reason, and keep praying about it. If you do study the preservation of its collection, ranking, and preservation, you may have some questions too (or maybe not :-).

[Aamer]

99% of Quranist Muslims do NOT take the verse mentioned to mean sex with boyfriend/girlfriend is permissible. It's a stretch to say the least. Quranist thought is logic based. Sex before marriage goes against logic based on Allah's words.

[Aamer]

This is the most recent argument I've heard against the hadith from Quranists too. For me, I haven't studied the science of hadith preservation so I cannot comment on this. But if this is the argument they're going with then I wonder about the preservation of history all together if that's the case. We're trusting man to deliver historical accounts that are centuries old. We should just reject it all then.

There are many verses in Quran which make it clear that we are not allowed to use any other teachings outside of Quran. But first, let's just use logic. The Quran was completed during the life of Prophet Muhammad. If Allah or Muhammad intended Hadith to be a supplementary book to accompany Quran, wouldn't Prophet Muhammad have made his followers write down and memorize his sayings and actions like he did Quran? Why did a guy named Bukhari have to come 300 years later to complete the religion? Quran says follow Allah and his messenger... Not Allah and Bukhari. Peace!

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum,

The following answer is based on my understanding of the deen.

The Qur'aan clearly tells us:

In Surah An-Nisa verse 59

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

In Surah Al-Ma'idah verse 92

And obey Allah and obey the Messenger and beware. And if you turn away - then know that upon Our Messenger is only [the responsibility for] clear notification.

In Surah An-Nur verse 54

Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification."

And many more verses in the Qur'aan you will find Allah (s.w.t.) orders us all to obey Allah (s.w.t.) and the messenger Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). No one can deny this or object this. So we've cleared that we HAVE to follow whatever our Prophet (PBUH) has told us to do. So no one can say "Following the Qur'aan is enough", as you need the Hadith as well which is also very imporant. I hope it's pretty clear now that we must follow the hadith and cannot ignore it at all. And today we understand that the most authentic sources of hadith are Bukhari and Muslim. So if you make remarks like "Qur'aan says follow Allah and his Messenger not Allah and Bukhari" you're rejecting the hadith of Bukhari which is proven to be the most authentic hadith. If you can provide us with a more authentic hadith than Bukhari or Muslim please bring it forth, we all want to be guided to the straight path.

Salam 3laikum

[Aamer]

Saying that follow the messenger means write new books 300 years later of sayings that may or may not be true is quite a stretch. If you follow Quran, you ARE following the messenger. That's what he followed.

Quran IS FULLY DETAILED
[6:114] "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.


[6:115] And the word of your Lord has been completed with the truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

[6:116] And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the path of God; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

Obey the messenger. His duty was to deliver the message (QURAN). Bukhari had no duty and was authorized by no one.
[5:92] And obey God and obey the messenger, and be aware. If you turn away then know that it is the duty of the messenger to deliver clearly.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

There are many verses in Quran which make it clear that we are not allowed to use any other teachings outside of Quran.

On the contrary, the Qur'an makes it clear that the Prophet :saws: received another type of inspiration from Allah, one that was binding on him :saws: and his followers.

...And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. (2:143, part)
We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face toward al-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do.(2:144)

These verses are in reference to the Muslims facing Jerusalem before the direction of the prayer was changed to Makkah. Allah explicitly states that it was He that appointed that original direction of prayer. However this inspiration and command to the Prophet :saws: to face Jerusalem never formed part of the Qur'an. Hence this shows that the Prophet :saws: received another type of inspiration/command from Allah, that was binding on him and his followers.

And do not pray [the funeral prayer, O Muhammad], over any of them who has died - ever - or stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient. (9:84)

This verse shows us that funeral prayers had already begun to be performed and that the Prophet :saws: used to offer prayers at the burial of the dead before this verse was revealed. Yet there is no verse in the Qur'an that orders the Prophet :saws: and the Muslims to pray specific funeral prayers over the dead. It must be conceded, that the command for the funeral prayer was given to the Prophet :saws: through the sunnah, and that command was binding on him and his followers.

These verses also show, that what the Prophet :saws: established as part of the religion, is approved by Allah. Nowhere in the Qur'an can one find any type of censure or rebuke or correction of the Prophet :saws: for establishing facts that are not in the Qur'an. If the Prophet :saws: , whose message and teachings are for everyone until the Day of Judgement, made any statement or established any practice that should not form part of the religion, one would expect that Allah would have clearly and unequivocally demonstrated that such practices do not form part of the religion, or that the Prophet :saws: does not have the right to establish any practice in the religion outside of the Qur'an. But one cannot find anything of that nature. Indeed, you can only find the opposite: approval or acceptance of what the Messenger of Allah established, in addition to the numerous verses ordering Muslims to accept and follow whatever the Prophet :saws: instructs them to do. If these practices of the Prophet :saws: are ordered/approved/accepted by Allah, and Allah commands us to follow them, then Muslims cannot reject them.

There are verses used by those who harbour doubts about the hadeeth, to imply that anything other than the Qur'an is not meant to be followed by Muslims, because the Qur'an is a clear fully detailed explanation of everything, thus nothing else is needed, and if it is, that would imply something is missing from the Qur'an, thus contradicting those verses. Therefore, according to the Qur'an, anything other than the Qur'an should not be followed.

Quran IS FULLY DETAILED
[6:114] "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Book fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

And another verse quoted by Qur'anists:

There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered.

One interpretation is that the Book here is not in reference to the Qur'an but the preserved tablet that has recorded on it everything that will occur up until the Day of Judgement. This is similar to Surah Hood, ayah 6.

If one takes the Book to refer to the Qur'an, this does not imply that the sunnah is not an authority and obligatory upon Muslims to follow. As we all know, the details concerning the prayer, zakat, fasts etc are not all spelled out, detailed, or explained in the Qur'an. So, in order for this interpretation to be accurate, given the reality of the situation, it must mean the following as ibn al-Jawzi explained it: "It is a general statement that has a particular intent behind it. The meaning therefore is: We have not omitted anything which you would be in need of except that it has been made clear in the book, either by clear text, undetailed statement, or indication." In other words, everything is mentioned in the Book, in either direct detail, or by reference to the source where the necessary detail can be found. Hence the Book itself does not contain details of the prayers, fasts and so forth, but the Book points the believer to where those details can be found: the sunnah of the Prophet :saws:. When understood in this manner, such verses are not an argument against the authority of the sunnah (or it's records in the hadeeth), but rather it's indispensability.

Clearly Allah does not spell out all the details of worship, law and life in the Qur'an itself. Instead, the Qur'an points the believer to all that is needed to be truly guided. Included in this is the sunnah itself as well as other aspects such as contemplating creation and so forth. The Qur'an clarifies all that is needed in one's life and part of what is needed in one's life is adherence to the sunnah of the messenger of Allah :saws:. The Book itself makes this fact abundantly clear with it's numerous verses containing the command to obey the Prophet :saws:. When we follow the Qur'an we are following Allah's words and command, as not a word of it is from the Prophet :saws:. To obey the Prophet :saws: we must follow his sayings, commands, actions, as they are recorded in the hadeeth. There is no more accurate record of the sunnah, than their preservation in the authentic hadeeth.

The sunnah of our beloved prophet :saws: is preserved down to the minutest detail in the authentic hadeeth, which is only proper if he is the last prophet, sent for the whole of mankind until the end of time, after whom no prophet will come. Otherwise the verse telling us that we have in the Prophets example a beautiful pattern of conduct for us, is meaningless.

If a person believes that nothing other than the word of Allah is to be considered, and any explanation by the Prophet :saws: is invalid, or that all explanations by him cannot be relied upon wholesale, in essence this is implying that Allah, instead of sending His book through a Prophet, could have sent printed copies directly to each individual, if it's explanation by the Prophet :saws: was not necessary, and if each individual had to use his/her own personal reasoning as it's explanation. It's implying that if He knew with His knowledge of the future that the records of the prophets explanations would be wholesale rejected and classified as corrupt, then He got it all wrong by sending it through a prophet and asking the prophet to explain it for mankind. But Allah did not leave us to fumble in the dark making our our own explanations, he sent the book to a prophet, described in the Qur'an as a mercy for all mankind, to show us how to put it into practice, to explain it to us, to show us the details for certain things mentioned without detail in the Qur'an etc. Allah was indeed was merciful to us in leaving us such a rich and detailed source of the explanation of the Qur'an, it exegesis, and in the Prophets character and practices, so that we can follow his example.

[Aamer]

Many Sunni Muslims are under the impression that Quranist Muslims don't have love for the Prophet. Or that we don't respect him or obey him. This is not true. Where we differ is in HOW to obey the Prophet. We do not believe that Hadith books written 300 years after the Prophet died were what was intended by "Obey the Messenger". And we do follow his Sunnah and example. The examples of him in Quran. I personally have too much love and respect for Prophet Muhammad to accept books which paint him as a ---- (AstagfirAllah). I don't accept these allegations and deem them false. But if you accept Bukhari Hadith as your holy book, you accept these allegations as truth. Only enemies of the Prophet and enemies of Allah would write such ---. I can quote all these Bukhari Hadith with book and volume numbers if you'd like. ---, but if you don't believe they exist, I'll quote them. Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims get so angry when non believers make a disrespectful movie about Prophet Muhammad. They should look in the mirror first and read their own Hadith books. And as for all the details you speak of which are part of Sunni Islam but not mentioned in Quran... If it's not in Quran, it's not important to our salvation. God makes it clear that his book is complete. For your second example, I agree. The second verse you quoted is most likely talking about the book of records. But what about the following verses? (I apologize if I have offended anyone but the truth must be told. Less than 1% of Muslims have read the entire Quran in a language they understand):

[6:114] "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

[6:115] The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

[16:116] You shall not invent lies about God by attributing lies with your tongues, saying: "This is lawful and that is forbidden." Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

[16:89] The day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. We have sent down to you the book as a clarification for all things, a guide, mercy and good tidings for those who have peacefully surrendered.

[25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."

[13:40] If We show you some of what We promise them or if We let you pass away, for you is only to deliver, while for Us is the reckoning.

[55:1-2] The Gracious: Has taught the Quran

[45:6] These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith, after God and his revelations do they believe?

[Indian Bro]

Many Sunni Muslims are under the impression that Quranist Muslims don't have love for the Prophet. Or that we don't respect him or obey him. This is not true. Where we differ is in HOW to obey the Prophet. We do not believe that Hadith books written 300 years after the Prophet died were what was intended by "Obey the Messenger". And we do follow his Sunnah and example. The examples of him in Quran. I personally have too much love and respect for Prophet Muhammad to accept books which paint him as a --- (AstagfirAllah). I don't accept these allegations and deem them false. But if you accept Bukhari Hadith as your holy book, you accept these allegations as truth. Only enemies of the Prophet and enemies of Allah would write such ---. I can quote all these Bukhari Hadith with book and volume numbers if you'd like. ---, but if you don't believe they exist, I'll quote them. Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims get so angry when non believers make a disrespectful movie about Prophet Muhammad. They should look in the mirror first and read their own Hadith books. And as for all the details you speak of which are part of Sunni Islam but not mentioned in Quran... If it's not in Quran, it's not important to our salvation. God makes it clear that his book is complete. For your second example, I agree. The second verse you quoted is most likely talking about the book of records. But what about the following verses? (I apologize if I have offended anyone but the truth must be told. Less than 1% of Muslims have read the entire Quran in a language they understand):

[6:114] "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

[6:115] The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

[16:116] You shall not invent lies about God by attributing lies with your tongues, saying: "This is lawful and that is forbidden." Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

[16:89] The day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. We have sent down to you the book as a clarification for all things, a guide, mercy and good tidings for those who have peacefully surrendered.

[25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."

[13:40] If We show you some of what We promise them or if We let you pass away, for you is only to deliver, while for Us is the reckoning.

[55:1-2] The Gracious: Has taught the Quran

[45:6] These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith, after God and his revelations do they believe?

As-salamu alaykum,

Brother, I urge you not to call the Prophet (PBUH) those vile names you mentioned above or accuse any Muslims of doing so without evidence. Now, I would like to ask you, how do you pray? Because the way we pray is inscribed through sunnah. And also, could you please refer to http://islam-qa.com/en/ref/604 and present your argument based on the content of the link?

May Allah (s.w.t.) guide us all to the straight path.

Salam 3laikum.

[Aamer]

As-salamu alaykum,

Brother, I urge you not to call the Prophet (PBUH) those vile names you mentioned above or accuse any Muslims of doing so without evidence. Now, I would like to ask you, how do you pray? Because the way we pray is inscribed through sunnah.

May Allah (s.w.t.) guide us all to the straight path.

Salam 3laikum.

WaAlaikum Salaam Brother,
Please understand that these vile accusations against Prophet Muhammad hurt me as much as you or any Muslim to read. But it is NOT ME making these accusations. It is "Sahih" BUKHARI HADITH making these accusations!


CONTENT REMOVED

[Muhammad]

:salamext: Aamer,

Please note that we will not tolerate attacks against the Hadith. The fact that some hadith may not be easy for you to accept does not justify abusing and distorting their meanings. If you are serious about this discussion, you should respond to the points raised by other members as in post #22. Ignoring those points will be seen as an inability to justify your stance. Attacking hadeeth will not strengthen your argument in any way.

Non-Muslims have distorted many verses from the Qur'an, claiming they are violent etc. Are you going to use your 'logic' to throw those out too?

[Aamer]

I see that this is not a place for open discussion as you have deleted the Hadith I posted straight out of Bukhari. As for the verses in Quran which you are saying some claim as being violent, the following verse clears that up. Violence is only allowed in self defense, when you are being stopped from practicing Islam or when you are being kicked out of your homes. In those cases, violence is justified..

[60:8] God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your faith, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

[60:9] But God does prohibit you regarding those who fought you because of your faith, and drove you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out. You shall not ally with them. Those who ally with them, then such are the transgressors.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

The Quran was completed during the life of Prophet Muhammad. If Allah or Muhammad intended Hadith to be a supplementary book to accompany Quran, wouldn't Prophet Muhammad have made his followers write down and memorize his sayings and actions like he did Quran? Why did a guy named Bukhari have to come 300 years later to complete the religion? Quran says follow Allah and his messenger... Not Allah and Bukhari. Peace!

Firstly, you profess to be a Muslim, and you also claim:

I personally have too much love and respect for Prophet Muhammad

Many Sunni Muslims are under the impression that Quranist Muslims don't have love for the Prophet. Or that we don't respect him or obey him. This is not true.

so please show the due respect by adding :saws: after the Prophets name. Saying Muhammad on it's own is how we are accustomed to our non-Muslim members speaking, but even some of them address him with the due respect and write pbuh (peace be upon him) after his name:

Indeed Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. (33:58)

Indeed, Allah confers blessing upon the Prophet, and His angels [ask Him to do so]. O you who have believed, ask [ Allah to confer] blessing upon him and ask [Allah to grant him] peace. (alternative translation of same ayah)

On the same note, the Muslims here have greeted you with assalaamu alaikum or better than it. For one who professes to follow the Qur'an, it is interesting that this ayah isn't being followed:

And when you are greeted with a greeting, greet [in return] with one better than it or [at least] return it [in a like manner]. Indeed, Allah takes careful account of all things. (4:86)

Back to the discussion, your main point seems to hinge on Bukhari allegedly completing the deen 300 years later, and that those who follow the sunnah of the Prophet :saws: as recorded in the hadeeth, are actually following Bukhari. These are very serious allegations to make yourself, and serious allegations to make about someone else. However, they are all pretty shallow and easily addressed, but we will leave that for later. We must first sort out the fundamentals. You also made a number of the most vile accusations (that we have only ever seen haters of Islam and evangelists make here) about the beliefs of those who follow the sunnah of the Prophet :saws: concerning the Prophet. This is very disturbing. Most Muslims hate to see such words in the same sentence, but it seems of no bother to you. Please do not repeat such words here.

Back to the discussion. First we must establish that the sunnah is from Allah, and that the Qur'an says so, and tells us to follow it.

And as for all the details you speak of which are part of Sunni Islam but not mentioned in Quran... If it's not in Quran, it's not important to our salvation.

Allah didn't think so. As I quoted, He said:

And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. (2:143, part)

Take note. Not following the Messenger :saws: on a command which wasn't in the Qur'an, classed as not following the Messenger, and turning back on one's heels, and being misguided. That is very serious indeed. Condemnation from Allah not on one level, but on three levels. There can be nothing more serious than that. Allah had given the Prophet :saws: the command, but some people disobeyed it. So, in reality, they disobeyed Allah, from whom the command originated. And that is exactly what hadeeth rejectors are doing now, not following the Prophets commands which aren't in the Qur'an, even though Allah also says:

"Nor does he speak of (his own) desire." (53:3), asserting that nothing the Prophet :saws: utters, is of his own desire or wish.
"It is only an Inspiration that is inspired." (53:4) i.e. he only conveys to the people what he was commanded to convey, in its entirety without additions or deletions. (Tafseer ibn Katheer)

The Arabic word used here, yantiqu, means specifically to speak. There is a difference of opinion as to whether these verses refer just to the Qur'an, or to everything the Prophet :saws: spoke. Even if they refer to the Qur'an, we know that Prophet :saws: did not just recite Qur'anic ayaat, but spoke other than that in matters of deen too, gave commands, explanations etc, the hikmah mentioned later in the post, as ordered and taught to Him by Allah, Glorified and Exalted be He.

Quran says follow Allah and his messenger

The Qur'an also says, on many many occasions, obey Allah and obey the messenger.

You will agree with me that not one word or one letter of the Qur'an is from the Prophet :saws: and that all of it is from Allah. To obey the Prophet, you need to obey those words he spoke himself, those actions he did, those explanations he gave, even if they are not in the Qur'an, as outlined above, along with the Qur'an. On some occasions the Qur'an tells us to obey the messenger :saws: without mentioning Allah, because if you obey the messenger then by default you obey the one who taught and ordered him. But if you disobey him, even if by disregarding what he said outside of the Qur'an, then by default you disobey the One Who taught him:

And establish prayer and give zakah and obey the Messenger - that you may receive mercy. (24:56)

He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah ; but those who turn away - We have not sent you over them as a guardian. (4:80)

In this verse, Allah states clearly that obedience to the Messenger :saws:is nothing less than obedience to Allah. It proves that any command from the Prophet :saws: actually originated with Allah. Most of those commands are recorded in the hadeeth.

Also, some verses tell us that obedience to the Prophet :saws: does not mean just with what he came with of the Qur'an, and that obedience to him has sources external to the Qur'an, that must be followed as well:

And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion. (4:61)

Come to what Allah has revealed, and to the Messenger. In other words, following only the Qur'an is not enough. Following only the prophets commands mentioned in the Qur'an is not enough. You must obey his commands that are not in the Qur'an too (which is the majority of them), those that are recorded in the hadeeth.

The passage continues:

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful.

But no, by your Lord, they will not believe, until they make you [O Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with full submission. (4:64-65)

Indeed, verse 65 above tells us that accepting the Prophet's rulings and decisions is part of our very faith, part of our imaan. It is noticeable that Allah begins the verse by swearing by the Lord of the Prophet, and this is much more greater and serious than any of the other types of swearing that Allah has used in the Qur'an, such as the stars, the sky, the dawn, the morning light etc. And it is after this great swearing that Allah informs the believers that it is necessary for them to completely accept the authority of the Prophet :saws:.

"With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect. " (16:44)

That explanation of the Qur'an by the Prophet (peace be upon him) is recorded in the hadeeth. So where the command to pray is given, one will not find details of how many units for each prayer in the Qur'an. That is explained by the Prophet (peace be upon him) as taught by Allah, and the explanation preserved in the hadeeth.


This duty of the Prophet (peace be upon him) has been stated in 16:43-44 especially to show the wisdom of sending a man as a Messenger, for, otherwise the Book could have been sent through the angels or could have been printed and sent directly to each human. But in this way, that purpose for which Allah in His Wisdom and Bounty and Providence designed to send the Book could not have been served. For, that purpose demanded that the Book should be brought by a perfect man, who should present it piece by piece, explain its meaning, remove any difficulties and doubts, answer objections, and should guide those who believed in it in every aspect of life and set before them his own excellent pattern of life. Then he should train them individually and collectively on the principles of the Book; so as to make them a model society for the rest of mankind.

16:44 shows that the view that the Book should be accepted without any exposition of it from the Prophet (peace be upon him) and using one's own independent reasoning instead, cannot be correct if Allah says that the Prophet is the teacher and explainer of the book.

Allah tells us that the Prophet :saws: is the example for us to follow:

Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

See this verse also:

O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

The companions of the Prophet and later scholars have understood "refer it to Allah", to mean, "refer it to the book of Allah." And referring the matter to the Messenger of Allah, means to refer it directly to him in his lifetime, and to his sunnah (as recorded in the hadeeth) after his death. Note that the two, the book of Allah, and the sunnah of His Messenger :saws:, are placed together here, and the verse does not say "refer it to Allah and then to the Messenger", nor does it say, "refer it to Allah, and if you do not find the answer there, then refer it to the Messenger". The two (Qur'an and sunnah) come together, hand in hand.

There are many such verses where Allah commands obedience to Himself and His prophet , and many of those begin, "O you who believe". This means that the command is not just restricted to the Prophet's lifetime, or to his companions. Instead, the command is addressed to everyone who claims to be a believer - then, now, and always.

There are a number of verses quoted in one of the posts above purporting to support the Qur'anist position. Some have been stated again after already being responded to:

[6:114] "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

Those who follow the Qur'an and sunnah have no doubts whatsoever about the Qur'an, and in fact are able to follow it more.

[6:115] The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

Nobody has changed his words.

[16:116] You shall not invent lies about God by attributing lies with your tongues, saying: "This is lawful and that is forbidden." Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.

Indeed they shall not. If the Prophet :saws: gave commands out side of the Qur'an pertaining to the lawful and unlawful, you think he :saws: invented lies?

[16:89] The day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. We have sent down to you the book as a clarification for all things, a guide, mercy and good tidings for those who have peacefully surrendered.

I have already mentioned above, how the Qur'an points the believer in the right direction, either by it's being made clear in the book, either by clear text, undetailed statement, or indication.

[25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."

Indeed people have, and some people ignore those parts which tell us to obey the Prophet :saw: and to obey those commands he gives outside of the Qur'an too, which originate with Allah.

[13:40] If We show you some of what We promise them or if We let you pass away, for you is only to deliver, while for Us is the reckoning.

?

[55:1-2] The Gracious: Has taught the Quran

He also taught something else along with it:

Just as We have sent among you a messenger from yourselves reciting to you Our verses and purifying you and teaching you the Book and wisdom and teaching you that which you did not know. (2:151)

"The Messenger also takes them away from the darkness (of disbelief) to the light (of faith) and teaches them the Book, the Qur'an, and the Hikmah (i.e., the wisdom), which is his Sunnah. He also teaches them what they knew not." (Tafseer ibn Katheer 2:151)

And do not take the verses of Allah in jest. And remember the favor of Allah upon you and what has been revealed to you of the Book and wisdom by which He instructs you. And fear Allah (2:231 part)

Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. (3:164)

And Allah has revealed to you the Book and wisdom and has taught you that which you did not know. (4:113)

It is clear here that Allah has taught and revealed to us not just one thing, but two separate things that go together. The Arabic words used are kitaab (book) and hikmah (literal meaning is wisdom). Nowhere in the Qur'an has the word Hikmah been used for the Qur'an, or the word kitaab used for the hikmah, and the particle "and" is placed between them, which shows us they are two distinct entities. So, what else did Allah reveal to the Prophet :saws: apart from the Book? It can only be the sunnah (outside of the Qur'an as proven). It is part of the blessing on the believers that the Prophet :saws: taught them both the book (Qur'an) and the hikmah (sunnah).

45:6] These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith, after God and his revelations do they believe?

This is a favourite tactic of hadeeth rejectors, to leave the word hadith in it's Arabic form in the English translation. Why leave only that word in the Arabic, why not any other word? It shows a lack of knowledge of Arabic, for the word hadeeth as used in the Qur'an, generally has different meanings depending on the context, in some places it means a fact, a statement, a conversation etc. However, if hadeeth rejectors want to play word games like this, then they must accept this wherever it occurs. So, please note:

فَذَرْنِى وَمَن يُكَذِّبُ بِهَـذَا الْحَدِيثِ سَنَسْتَدْرِجُهُمْ مِّنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ

Then leave Me alone with those who reject this Hadeeth: by degrees We shall punish them from directions they perceive not. (68:44)

.....مَا كَانَ حَدِيثًا يُفْتَرَى .....

..It is no invented Hadeeth.. (12:111, part)

In summary:
Allah says in the Qur'an that not following the Messenger :saws: on a command which wasn't in the Qur'an, is classed as not following the Messenger, and turning back on one's heels, and being misguided. It is also not following Allah as the command originated with Allah.
Whatever the Prophet spoke in matters of the deen (outside of the Qur'an) is inspired to him by Allah.
The Qur'an is Allahs word without a word from the Prophet, so to obey the Prophet is to obey his words, which the Qur'an isn't.
Not obeying his words is not obeying the words of the One who taught him.
In the Qur'an Allah tells the Prophet :saws: to explain the Qur'an to us, explanations which aren't in the Qur'an as it isn't the Prophets word.
Allah clearly states that He revealed the book and the wisdom. The wisdom is not the book, so can only be the sunnah.

And Allah knows best.

[Aamer]

As for me not responding to post #22, there were many points. Let me address the ones I didn't address earlier. The following verse, in my opinion, if you read the entire Surah in context, is about not taking enemies of Allah and the Prophet as allies. It's not suggesting that we need to have Hadith to perform funeral rights. Read it in context and you should see what the point is

[9:84] And do not bond upon any of them who have died, nor stand at their grave. They have rejected God and His messenger and died while they were wicked.

And verse 2:143 is not in my humble opinion saying that we need Hadith to follow the messenger. This section is talking about how the Qibla was changed to see who would accept Islam (Gods new revelation, QURAN) & who would reject it. Read it carefully, I think it's quite clear...

[2:143] And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the Qibla that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.

[2:144] We see the shifting of your face towards the heaven; We will thus set for you a Qibla that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set
towards it." Those who have been given the Book know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

Muhammad,
Now that I have addressed all the questions posed by the brother in post #22, perhaps you could put my post back up which containsBukhari Hadith. Unless of course you only allow posts which fit your views.

[Aamer]

Insaanah,
I apologize for calling you brother. I just noticed that you are a sister. Again, I'm not in disagreement with you about following, obeying the messenger. I think there is plenty of examples of Prophet Muhammads wisdom in Quran. The disagreement I have is HOW to follow the Prophet. Bukhari and other Sahih Hadith are not reputable in my opinion. I provided plenty of evidence of disrespectful Bukhari Hadith but moderator Muhammad removed that post. If you want to see the evidence (proof really) with Bukhari book and volume numbers, I can send them to you. I don't think they will let me post anything here that questions Sunni beliefs. And I know Hadith means narration in Arabic. It is referring to the Quran and therefore confirms that we should not use any other narration other than Quran. God bless.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

Let's establish where we're at so far.

Again, I'm not in disagreement with you about following, obeying the messenger.

It's been demonstrated from the Qur'an itself, that the sunnah of the Prophet :saws: is revealed/inspired to him by Allah Himself, and that this sunnah is a separate entity to the Qur'an, but that goes together with it, and that we are required to follow it.

Are you in agreement with that, that the Prophets sunnah (not in the Qur'an), must be followed?

If so, is your main issue the preservation of that sunnah, and the authenticity and recording of hadeeth?

If you can answer these questions, then we can address your concerns about the recording, preservation, authenticity etc of the hadeeth generally :ia:.

[Muhammad]

:salamext: Aamer,

I see that this is not a place for open discussion as you have deleted the Hadith I posted straight out of Bukhari.

We have allowed you to make all your points, but we do not need examples of misinterpretation or misrepresentation of hadeeth - we are quite familiar with such accusations being bandied about over the internet. It's best to focus on the points already made so as to make the discussion easier to follow. We also have a number of threads that already address these issues, so they can be referred to if needed.

As for the verses in Quran which you are saying some claim as being violent, the following verse clears that up.

Likewise, claims against hadith teaching violence or racism etc. can be clarified (in some cases, they are fabrications and not even accepted as being valid hadith). If you are willing to accept it for the Qur'an, why do you not accept it for hadith?

[Muhammad]

And I know Hadith means narration in Arabic. It is referring to the Quran and therefore confirms that we should not use any other narration other than Quran. God bless.

If it is only referring to the Qur'an, then how do you understand the following verses:

And has there come to you the Hadeeth of Musa? [20:9]

Has the Hadeeth reached you, of the honoured guests of Ibrahim? [51:24]

Has the Hadeeth reached you of the hosts, [85:17]

Has there come to you the Hadeeth of the overwhelming (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)? [88:1]

...Thus did We establish Yusuf in the land, that We might teach him the interpretation of Hadeeth... [12:21]

And when you see those who engage in a false conversation about Our Verses by mocking at them, stay away from them till they turn to another Hadeeth... [6:68]

[Amat Allah]

Assalaamu Alikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuh

My respected and noble brother, it is not for a Muslim who believes in Allah and His messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to reject the hadeeth which is the words, actions, approval or attributes that have been narrated from the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

A hadeeth may either confirm things that are mentioned in the Qur’aan, such as prayer, zakaah, etc., or it may give details of things that are mentioned in the Qur’aan in general terms, such as the numbers of rak’ahs in each prayer, the thresholds for paying zakaah, the details of Hajj, etc. It may also explain rulings which are not mentioned in the Qur’aan, such as the prohibition on being married to a woman and her (paternal or maternal) aunt at the same time.

How would you know all those things and more if not the knowledge of hadeeth? would ya know how many Rak'aat you must pray for Zuhur prayer without hadeeths??? would ya know how to pray at all? would ya know how much Zakat you must give of your money ? would we ever know how to worship Allah at all ? think about it please from all ways...

Allaah revealed the Qur’aan to His Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and commanded him to explain it to the people, as He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the Dhikr [reminder and the advice (i.e. the Qur’aan)], that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought”

[al-Nahl 16:44]

The hadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is a revelation (wahy) from his Lord. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

It is only a Revelation revealed”

[al-Najm 53:2-4]

humbly, return to this link so you know more if you wish:

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/13206

And the prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had warned us in many narrations:

a) Al-Tirmidhi reported from Abu Raafi’ and others that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I do not want to see any one of you reclining on his couch and, when he hears of my instructions or prohibitions, saying ‘I don’t accept it; we didn’t find any such thing in the Book of Allaah.’” Abu ‘Eesaa said: This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth. (See Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Shaakir edition, no. 2663).

Al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, reported that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Would any of you think, reclining on his couch, that Allaah would only describe what is forbidden in the Qur’aan? I tell you, by Allaah, that I have warned and commanded and prohibited things that are as important as what is in the Qur’aan, if not more so.” (Reported by Abu Dawud, Kitaab al-Khiraj wa’l-imaarah wa’l-fay’).

(b) Abu Dawud also reported from al-’Irbaad ibn Saariyah, may Allaah be pleased with him, that “the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) led us in prayer one day, then he turned to us and exhorted us strongly . . . (he said), ‘Pay attention to my sunnah (way) and the way of the Rightly-guided Khaleefahs after me, adhere to it and hold fast to it.’” (Saheeh Abi Dawud, Kitaab al-Sunnah).

With all respect, read more here if you wish:

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/604

May Allah guide us all , Be with us and keep us firm on His straight path Ameeeen

[syed_z]

Many Sunni Muslims are under the impression that Quranist Muslims don't have love for the Prophet. Or that we don't respect him or obey him. This is not true. Where we differ is in HOW to obey the Prophet. We do not believe that Hadith books written 300 years after the Prophet died were what was intended by "Obey the Messenger".

Asalaam O alaikum Brother Aamer.... hope your doing fine.

I believe that your intention is good and you are not posting and challenging for the sake of creating a Fitnah. Its just that you have been strongly influenced by Munkareen i Hadith (hadith rejectors). The way they have presented to you the Hadith subject is in a very distorted manner and InshA'Allah we pray that you will be guided by Grace of Allah (swt).

A lot of the brothers and sisters here have answered your concerns from the Quran to follow Hadith of the Prophet Mohammad (Saw) but I do want to share some historical information and texts which prove that Hadith was NOT written 300 years after.... this is an allegation made by Hadith Rejectors about the collection of Hadith, rather it was being written at the time of the Prophet (saw) himself by his Companions (r.a) and he absolutely supported this ....


Sayyidina Abdullah Ibn Amr (R.A) reports "I used to write everything i heard from the Messenger (saw) as i wanted to Preserve it. The Quraish forbade me, saying 'Do you write down everything that you hear (from him) and The Messenger is a human being who sometimes speaks in anger and joy? (that is that he may say something emotionally that may not be worth writing). So i stopped. Then i mentioned this to Allah's Messenger (saw). He pointed with his finger to his mouth and said "Write! By the One in Whose Hand is My Life! Nothing comes out of it (His Mouth) except the Truth!" [Sunan Abu Daud of Imam Abu Daud, Hadith #3161]

So the above tradition makes it clear that Prophet (saw) himself supported the compilation of Hadith literature. Abdullah Ibn Amr (R.A) compiled a Hadith book named "Sahifa Sadiqa", which had 1000 saying of the Messenger (saw) and Muhaddith (Hadith specialists) like Abu Dawud collected hadith from books like Sahifa Sadiqa and compiled in their books which Ummah makes use of them.


Sahifah Hammam ibn Munabbih (A collection of Hadith)The Earliest Extant Work On The Hadith is perhaps one of the earliest known hadith collections, by 8th century AD scholar Hammam ibn Munabbih.

It has been translated in the 20th century by Muhammad Hamidullah (He was a world-renowned Muhaddith, Faqih and scholar of Islam and International Law from Pakistan, was awarded Hilal-e-Imtiaz in Pakistan).

Hammam Ibn Munabbih was a student (tabi'in) of the Sahaba, Abu Huraira (r.a), the famous hadith transmitter.

Dr Hamidullah published this Sahifa (scriptures) of Hammam around 1979, which was existing from the time of 1st year Hijrah, in Pakistani News papers, and it proves that hadith were collected in the Mid 1st century Hijrah.

These hadith were also compared by some of the orientalists Westerners and others like, by R. M. Speight, "A Look At Variant Readings In The Hadith" one of his books , in which he said about these hadith

"... the texts in Hammam and those recorded in Ibn Hanbal, Bukhari and Muslim with the same, chain of narrators, show almost complete identity, except for a few omissions and interpolations which do not affect the sense of the reports."

Further he comments about the reports of Hammam found in the later compilations of Ibn Hanbal, al-Bukhari and Muslim by saying that:

"... I have found practically no sign of careless or deceptive practices in the variant texts common to the Sahifa of Hammam bin Munabbih."

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/hadith.html

The Hadith from that 1st year Hijrah scripture was compared in this 20th Century and guess what ? Not an iota of difference! This also explains well that Hadith being copied from early years up till today, through Science of Hadith (Ilm Al-Rijal) do not have any corruption at all either.

It is a fact that Abu Huraira (R.A) had opened a school where 800 students came and studied Hadith.


The Musannaf of Abdul Razzaq, also collected during the 1st yr Hijrah. "Studies in Hadith Methodology & Literature" A book by Dr Mustafa Azami, has shown that many hundreds of booklets of Hadith were compiled during the 1st century Hijrah. I suggest you try to get your hands on these books a.s.a.p and try reading and InshA'Allah you will see the other side of the picture which Hadith Rejectors are hiding from you.

Anas Bin Malik (r.a) the famous hadith transmitter not only recorded the Hadith but also presented to Muhammad (saw) and got corrections.

The Hadith rejectors forget how we received the Quran, it was transmitted by the same ones who transmitted to us the Hadith. If we rely on those channels for Allah's Words so should we rely on those for Muhammad (saw) words.

Also I believe you should ask yourself, if Hadith collectors like Imam Bukhari were really that irresponsible then why did Imam Bukhari collect thousands of hadith or as it is recorded 100,000 and compiled only a few thousand like 5000 or 4000 in his collection ? Why did he choose to reject the large number of others if he was really that careless ?

I hope that helps InshA'Allah. Salaam.

[Insaanah]

Quranist thought is logic based.

But first, let's just use logic.

Ok, let's. We've already proven from the Qur'an that Allah tells us in the Qur'an to follow the sunnah of the Prophet :saws:, which the Qur'an makes clear is extra to the Qur'an, a separate entity that goes hand in hand with it, but itself is not a part of the Qur'an. It's also been shown that the sunnah originates from Allah, and was inspired/revealed/taught to the Prophet :saws: by Allah, and that we are required to follow this sunnah, and failure to do so leaves us liable to incur the condemnation of Allah.

But as you said, and since Qur'anism purports to be based on logic, let's just use logic.

Firstly, if one claims as the very basis of one's faith and 1st pillar of Islam on which everything else stands, that there's no God but Allah and that Muhammad :saws: is the messenger of Allah, but then rejects everything that Messenger said and did and commanded, how much of an acceptance is that? (Or is it the case that the Qur'anist shahaadah is only laa ilaaha illallah)?

Secondly, Qur'anists insist that the Qur'an is a fully detailed explanation of everything, directly, in and of itself, without any need to refer to any external or complimentary sources. But on Qur'anist sites and forums you see people asking each other what words they personally use for even the most important of fundamentals, such as the shahaadah. If the Qur'an was a directly fully detailed explanation of absolutely everything, without need to consult any other source, then these things should be clearly detailed in the Qur'an and there should be no need to ask anyone. But Qur'anists consult each other and accept what others say, but will not accept what the Prophet :saws: said and did (as Allah taught him) and the sahaabah (may Allah be pleased with them) and their students transmitted and practiced and recorded, and in actuality, they are implying that they are better than the prophet :saws: or know more than him, or that he :saws: (and by default, Allah) was wrong. We seek refuge in Allah from that. Nobody knows better than he to whom the Qur'an as revealed, and He who revealed it him and taught him the sunnah.

Their asking each other in this manner proves that although they use the verses that say the Qur'an is fully detailed, to mean no external source is required, their practice shows that they know that this isn't the case, and they know that they are misinterpreting the verse. It is against the logic they profess, and against these ayaat, amongst others:

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. (33:36)

But no, by your Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (4:65)

Qur'anists do not even agree on how many times a day to pray. Some believe you should pray two times, others believe three times, some believe five times. When you cannot agree on one of the most important and basic fundamentals, and there is no clear unequivocal answer, something is very wrong. That is just the tip of the iceberg of that is Qur'anism, because they reject the sunnah of the Prophet :saws: as recorded in the hadeeth, and literally do what feels right to them personally, not what Allah and his prophet :saws: taught and commanded.

Thirdly, sometimes Qur'anists say they know they must believe in the the sunnah but don't trust hadeeth. Then, simply, bring what sources of the Prophets sayings you have that are more accurately and transparently recorded than the hadeeth. From the Qur'an, we know that sunnah external to the Qur'an exists, so if it's not in the hadeeth, just show us where it is outside of the Qur'an.

Once you accept the status of the sunnah of the Prophet :saws: as a necessary and non-negotiable part of Islam, then we can move on to discuss it's preservation in hadeeth, and the recording, authenticity etc. No other literature of the era is preserved so accurately and transparently, and no mans' every saying, deed, command has been recorded in such detail. We know who the Prophet :saws: said it to, who that person taught it to, biographies of people in the chain of transmission such that it is even known who had a weak memory etc, so we know which are not so strong. Allah said in the Qur'an that we have in the Prophet :saws: a beautiful pattern to follow, and it is part of Allah's blessing to us that this rich and detailed source, with a method of scrutiny, is available to us. If we were meant to use our own reasoning, printed books would have been sent down with no need for a teacher. Not only did Allah ensure there was a teacher, but also that his sunnah was preserved for us so that we could follow his example. That verse applies now, then and always.

When non-Muslims or even people of other sects learn about true Islam, sometimes it goes against everything they've held dear and believed for so long, even their whole life, and sometimes they may even still have issues in Islam that don't currently sit well with them and need explaining to them, but they know that deep down inside what they're following doesn't make sense and that Islam does, and is the truth. It's uncomfortable the realisation that you've been on the wrong path so long, but then you see the light, but still sometimes it takes a while to make that leap. But the sooner it's done the better as no one knows when the angels will come for them.

It doesn't matter if you've been a "Quranist" for 16 years, it is never too late to receive and accept true guidance. We hope you'll re-read and ponder what's been said, ponder your own beliefs and whether they're as logical as you think and whether that is really Islam and whether you're not only disobeying the prophet :saws: but Allah too.

You cannot be a Qur'anist and follow the Qur'an properly. The two are mutually exclusive. A better term is sunnah or hadeeth rejector.

As much as Qur'anists may like to think that their beliefs are logical, they are not quite as logical as they like to think, and are a misplaced and self-contradictory set of beliefs, as shown, using both the Qur'an itself, and the logic they like to profess.

May Allah guide you to following the Qur'an and sunnah of his final messenger :saws: as it is meant to be followed, ameen.