The Bible Came from Arabia

[MustafaMc]

I am reading a book, 'The Bible Came from Arabia', by Kamal Salibi. The back cover states (in blue with my emphasis in CAPS):

"I believe I have made a remarkable discovery, which should make possible a radical reinterpretation of the Old Testament"

Kamal Salibi, professor of history at the American University of Beirut, reveals startling linguistic evidence which controversially suggests that Judaism originated not in Palestine BUT IN WEST ARABIA (my emphasis).

Whilst looking at a gazetteer of Saudi place names, he noticed a remarkable concentration of Biblical place names in an area 600km long by 200km wide (the region of 'Asir). Ancient Hebrew, like Arabic, was written without vowels. Salibi believes that the scholars of the sixth century might have added the vowels WRONGLY when standardizing texts, and so he went back to the original unvowelled Old Testament to prove his theory - and it did.

The geography of Palestine has never corresponded in any way to the apparently specific stories in the Bible. Salibi's research authenticates the events as history for the first time - but with an ARABIAN SETTING.

This book has caused a predictable storm amongst academics and politicians. The issue is of such importance that everyone should read the evidence first-hand.

[MustafaMc]

I came across this book from a post on FaceBook by a Christian friend. This is what he wrote:

This is a Google satellite map, note area of map from southwestern Saudi Arabia roughly outlined in red, is where Dr. Kamal Salibi in his 1985 book "The Bible Came From Arabia" says is the land of Abram (Abraham). The area roughly outlined in blue, is where Salibi says is the land of Moses. THESE areas may actually be the PROMISED LAND & not Israel Jerusalem over 845 miles (1360 km) to the north.

I replied to his post with:

The nofthern boundary of this area is only about 75 miles from Mecca. Muslims believe that Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael to the area of the Kabba in Mecca and left them there. I had wondered how he could have traveled from the area of Palestine down to Mecca, but the area in red border would be a very manageable trip.

[Hulk]

Bacca is Mecca?

[Al-manar]

I am reading a book, 'The Bible Came from Arabia', by Kamal Salibi.

:sl:

I haven't read the book ,though I have another book ( The Torah event and the ancient near east .by Farras Alsawwah, الحدث التوراتي والشرق الأدنى القديم ) ,intended as a thoroughly refutation to the book ...

the criticism of the book ,due to the author's ignoring the historical,archaeological input in favor for the linguistic factor ..

unfortunately the book is in Arabic(336 pages) , otherwise I could have quoted extensively from it .....

anyway, hope next posts to translate some outlines from the book..

:wa:

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[MustafaMc]

So was this other book written as a refutation of the one I referenced? My point in starting this thread was to consider the possibility that our understanding of where the ancient Biblical events occured may not be accurate. The book is based largely on linguistic evidences which can be presumed to be circumstantial, but can't the evidences be presented as a point of discussion to consider alternative views of history with the intention of getting closer to a true understanding?

[جوري]

repeat post please remove

[جوري]

isn't it amazing how the first thing I find about Firas as'sawah is this:
فراس السواح - الأوان من أجل ثقافة علمانية عقلانية

roughly translates to: Firras As-Sawah- Time for a secular humanistic philosophy? Isn't that exactly how you refer to yourself as well but in Arabic so that the members are fooled by your purpose here?

[جوري]

removed the article that this comment was in reference too pls. delete post

[Ali_008]

Bacca is Mecca?

Yep. Makkah was known as Bakkah earlier. Even in the Qur'an, at places, Makkah has been referred to a Bakkah.

And Madinah was called Yathrib. No reference in the Qur'an though.

EDIT: Yathrib is, in fact, mentioned in the Qur'an as posted by Sis Insaanah below. I don't know how that skipped my mind. :heated:

[Insaanah]

:sl:

And Madinah was called Yathrib. No reference in the Qur'an though.

وَمِمَّنْ حَوْلَكُم مِّنَ الاٌّعْرَابِ مُنَـفِقُونَ وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الْمَدِينَةِ مَرَدُواْ عَلَى النَّفَاقِ لاَ تَعْلَمُهُمْ نَحْنُ نَعْلَمُهُمْ سَنُعَذِّبُهُم مَّرَّتَيْنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى عَذَابٍ عَظِيمٍ

Muhsin Khan
And among the bedouins round about you, some are hypocrites, and so are some among the people of Al-Madinah, they exaggerate and persist in hypocrisy, you (O Muhammad SAW) know them not, We know them. We shall punish them twice, and thereafter they shall be brought back to a great (horrible) torment. (9:101)

وَإِذْ قَالَت طَّآئِفَةٌ مِّنْهُمْ يأَهْلَ يَثْرِبَ لاَ مُقَامَ لَكُمْ فَارْجِعُواْ وَيَسْتَأْذِنُ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُمُالنَّبِىَّ يَقُولُونَ إِنَّ بُيُوتَنَا عَوْرَةٌ وَمَا هِىَ بِعَوْرَةٍ إِن يُرِيدُونَ إِلاَّ فِرَاراً

Pickthall
And when a party of them said: O folk of Yathrib! There is no stand (possible) for you, therefor turn back. And certain of them (even) sought permission of the Prophet, saying: Our homes lie open (to the enemy). And they lay not open. They but wished to flee. (33:13)

[جوري]

One of the amazing things about the language of the Quran that many people don't pay attention and take for granted is the kind of audience it addresses with things that are known to them that would not be known otherwise to an Arabic prophet. For instance when it was said to the mother of Moses (PBUH):
Al-Qasas (The Narration)[28:7]

[RECITE]

[top] [next match]

Waawhayna ila ommi moosa an ardiAAeehi faitha khifti AAalayhi faalqeehi fee alyammi wala takhafee wala tahzanee inna raddoohu ilayki wajaAAiloohu mina almursaleena

28:7 So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Moses: "Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our apostles."

the word 'yaam' isn't an Arabic word. It is certainly not the Arabic word for river. You can see that since the story in many ways is teaching Muslims, but addressing the Jews that it would be said in words that they'd reason and discern.

truly its transcendence & linguistic miracles will never cease!

[Abz2000]

The author's take on Jerusalem being somewhere else doesn't add up,
Masjid al aqsa, The dome of the rock, the city of dawud (as), the continued archaeological discoveries of encrypted text and other stuff, the knight Templars digs, the burial of occult texts in the city of David etc,
Are all I the location where al aqsa is situated,
Plus all the historical records and the generations of Muslims (and converts from judaism and christianity that have descended and resided in the region for millennia, it doesn't seem like such a big and important place can just disappear and no one know about or see it happen.
Allah knows best

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

Salaams to Mustafa and Purest,

i saw this posted the other day, but the book looks a bit pricey. i'm curious though, i'm totally influenced by Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible?,
http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Ri.../dp/0060630353
in a nutshell, his working theory is that Jeremiah and Baruch compiled the Torah [J&E]except for Deuteronomy, which they wrote [and are in fact the D source]. the team also wrote Joshua, Samuel and Kings. Ezra was the final redactor also fusing, but not authoring, the P [priestly elements] to the story.
does the author deal with the documentary hypothesis at all?

also, Arabia has been previously named as the site of Sinai:

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm

http://www.squidoo.com/redseacrossing

http://www.squidoo.com/theexodus

is this dealt with in the book?

:wa:

[Insaanah]

:wa:

It might be better to address one's salaams to all Muslims in the thread, and then address the point you're making to whoever you wish.

[جوري]

wa3lyka asalaam akh Yusufnoor,

It is good to see you back al7mdullilah.. was wondering where the old crowd went..
I haven't read either book just snippets. My understanding is that Everything is that it is quite possible and I'll tell you why. Ibrahim PBUH ancestry is originally from Yemen as its inhabitants took two routes to travel. Ibrahim PBUH ancestry to moved to Iraq and that's where he was born, then he traveled from there and we're all quite familiar with his settlements if we use the Quran itself as an historical source. Traveling was the norm for trade etc. and wherever there was water people settled.
I just wanted to have a look at the so-called refutation since of late many things have become manifest to cast some doubt over the content shared by Al-Manar.

:w:

[Al-manar]

So was this other book written as a refutation of the one I referenced?

exactly , actually after the publication of that book, lots of writers(Muslims,Christians,atheists) published refutations to his theory ,and that book I have is just one of them...

My point in starting this thread was to consider the possibility that our understanding of where the ancient Biblical events occured may not be accurate.

that is a valid,welcomed thing.... but I think the theory of the book is not to be taken seriously .....

did you read what he said about the exodus? about Egypt ? etc....

roughly translates to: Firras As-Sawah- Time for a secular humanistic philosophy? Isn't that exactly how you refer to yourself as well but in Arabic so that the members are fooled by your purpose here?

is that for me?!!!! I referred to myself as a secular humanistic philosopher?

[جوري]

is that for me?!!!! I referred to myself as a secular humanistic philosopher?

what does 3aqlani wa mo3tadil mean in your book?

[Al-manar]

what does 3aqlani wa mo3tadil mean in your book?

open http://translate.google.com.eg/?hl=en&tab=wT#ar|en|

copy and paste

مسلم عقلانى ومعتدل

click translate

I will add وافتخر

which means "I'm proud of it"

[جوري]

open http://translate.google.com.eg/?hl=en&tab=wT#ar|en|

copy and paste

مسلم عقلانى ومعتدل

click translate

I already speak Arabic I wanted your own words.. because a man who is a self professed 3ilmani and whose views you openly admire or at least bring into the scene as authoritative echos your personal beliefs in many ways.. so I am rather curious as to your intentions and what it is that you consider to be 3aql wa i3tidal in said context?

[MustafaMc]

Wa alaikum assalaum to those who believe in Allah and accept Muhammad (saaws) as His Messenger.

I have only begun reading the book. An interesting point the author made is that ancient Hebrew was written with consonants (e.g. YHWH) only like Arabic. Hebrew was not used for common communication for almost 1,000 years and he says that the language was reconstructed by the Masoretes between 500-800 A.D. by adding vowels for vocalization. (We can only imagine the difficulties we would have today if the Quran was left without vowel marks.) The author claims that errors were made in reconstructing the language and that going back to the original texts revealed patterns in commonality between these texts and Arabian place names.

[MustafaMc]

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
roughly translates to: Firras As-Sawah- Time for a secular humanistic philosophy? Isn't that exactly how you refer to yourself as well but in Arabic so that the members are fooled by your purpose here?
is that for me?!!!! I referred to myself as a secular humanistic philosopher?

I think that you misquoted me as I did not write that.

[Al-manar]

I already speak Arabic I wanted your own words

and those were the words I described myself with (in Arabic) no less no more ..

a man who is a self professed 3ilmani

correction : In Arabic ,the word used for " secular" is 3almani not 3ilmani ...

because a man who is a self professed 3ilmani and whose views you openly admire or at least bring into the scene as authoritative

that depends on what view he propose .... eg; I admire SOME of Bart Ehrmans' views regarding the bible but not his view in God ....

.. so I am rather curious as to your intentions and what it is that you consider to be 3aql wa i3tidal in said context?

i3tidal (moderation) is lots of things ,not to be begot,to be tolerant,avoid the radical opinions, to know how to lead a civil discussion (some people here lack such manner badly).......

3aqel I meant by that ,not to follow anything"especially the interpretations" blindly ......

A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps. Proverbs 14:15

I'm afraid you might next post ,accuse me of being christian cause I admired such biblical verse.....:giggling:

[Al-manar]

I have only begun reading the book. An interesting point the author made is that ancient Hebrew was written with consonants (e.g. YHWH) only like Arabic. Hebrew was not used for common communication for almost 1,000 years and he says that the language was reconstructed by the Masoretes between 500-800 A.D. by adding vowels for vocalization. (We can only imagine the difficulties we would have today if the Quran was left without vowel marks.) The author claims that errors were made in reconstructing the language and that going back to the original texts revealed patterns in commonality between these texts and Arabian place names.

:sl:
yes exactly ..that is his approach ...

but following that approach ,for eg; guess where he suggests the Egypt of the bible & Quran, to be?!!

It is a small town,located some where in Asir Province "a province of Saudi Arabia located in the southwest of the country" ....

Shocking, isn't it?!

:wa:

[جوري]

and those were the words I described myself with (in Arabic) no less no more ..

indeed.

correction : In Arabic ,the word used for " secular" is 3almani not 3ilmani ...

semantics the same way you wrote firas when it is faras.. we're not arabizing English or vice versa.

that depends on what view he propose .... eg; I admire SOME of Bart Ehrmans' views regarding the bible but not his view in God ....

Admiration should be backed up with something other than a profession of the mere term 'refutation' do you not agree?

i3tidal (moderation) is lots of things ,not to be begot,to be tolerant,avoid the radical opinions, to know how to lead a civil discussion (some people here lack such manner badly).......

3aqel I meant by that ,not to follow anything"especially the interpretations" blindly ......

A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps. Proverbs 14:15

Manners and shyness play no role where one seeks the truth or when desires to mislead (without evincing if I may add) thus rendering '3aql, wa3tidal' mere words with no substance..

I'm afraid you might next post ,accuse me of being christian cause I admired such biblical verse.....:giggling:

Must be regional humor- I am not sure what's funny?.. unless creating a scenario in your head and presuming the reaction of the other person falls under the accolades you propose to possess?..

best,

[Al-manar]

I know it ... you must continue harshly,whatever argument till those who converse with you stop it, and then fancy yourself that you won (as if you are in battle not a civil discussion) ....

the only thing that made me start conversation with you, is your serious,rude accusation against me ....
you realize what you accused me with? "a hypocrite blasphemer"

how many people complained of your bad manners,your foul mouth?
they are many whether Muslims or non Muslims ...
you really one of the negatives of that good board, that should be seriously dealt with.....

discussion is over ....

but my discussion with my descent Bro Mustafa will continue for sure

[جوري]

I know it ... you must continue whatever argument till those who converse with you stop it, and then fancy yourself that you won (as if you are in battle not a civil discussion) ....
the only thing that made me start conversation with you, is your serious,rude accusation against me .... you really one of the negatives of that board that should be seriously dealt with.....

discussion is over ....

This is a base response expected from an adolescent and is obvious that when you can't defend your arguments with something substantive you prefer a temper tantrum. I am not having any arguments with you. I am bringing to light your philosophy and your self professed accolades so you can define them and so we'd have a better understanding of your purpose & agenda. There's no harm in that at all- it is called 'free speech' moderates/mo3tadils adore it.. but I am curious as how you'd like to deal with me 'seriously' oh 3aqlani and mo3tadil?

best,

[Al-manar]

:sl:
Muslims believe that Abraham took Hagar and Ishmael to the area of the Kabba in Mecca and left them there. I had wondered how he could have traveled from the area of Palestine down to Mecca.
:wa:

:sl:
A trip like that takes less than a month,and no wonder in making that trip ,as many Arabs used to have it regularly in old times ....

but that is not the question ,the question is where did Abraham live ? and we should answer as much as possible ,in accordance with Islam ....

tips:

1- does the quran locate where Abraham lived?
2- we have a quran hint that,Abraham was a contemporary to Lot ,and his folk seems to be geographically near the folk of Abraham,so where Lot lived?
3- also the people of Madyan were near where the people of Lot lived,according to the Quran.
4-Abraham's father is called in the Quran "Athar" ,where was that name common in the past?
etc.....

the answers of those questions get us clue to the location

:wa:

[Al-manar]

I found something that may relate to the discussion , I will give you one last chance لميس to lead a civil discussion with me ..

For instance when he speaks of El-Gipt as the reference to Egypt and how the name Misr wasn't know to early Muslims

I think you either misunderstood him ,or he erred ...

would you quote the man plz ... I'm really interested to know where he said that...

[Scimitar]

also the people of Madyan were near where the people of Lot lived,according to the Quran.

A lot more than the honourable prophet Lot AS happened in Madyan / Midian, my brother...

Mount Sinai isn't in the Sinai Peninsula either... seems the significance of Arabia in relevance to religious history is ... well judge for yourself - what you will find may leave you dazzled (I call it one of the biggest religous cons in history):

Let us retrace the Exodus journey of Prophet Musa alaihi salam and his Bani Israel tribes out of Egypt, the miracle of the Red Sea Crossing and their encampment at the foot of the Tur Sina - Jabal Musa.....more miracles and of course Musa As-Samiri's a.ka. Dajjal handiwork - the Golden Calf!

The Exodus totaled around 600,000 men, so if you were to take in all the women & children, the total number would easily swell to more than 2,000,000 people.....If anyone has been to the traditional Mt.Sinai in Egypt, you would have doubts of how 2,000,000 people would ever have made an encampment there.

The current traditional Mt. Sinai did not exist until 2000 years after the Exodus. The following series of pictures will prove once and for all that the Real Sinai is in North West Arabia at the Jabal Al-Lawz Moutain range...PLUS the SAUDIS have no intention of announcing this great find to the world.

Ofcourse, at this point, photographic proof is required:

Fake Sinai VS Real Sinai

This means the route of the Exodus would look like this:

Let's get a view from the ground, the Bani Israel fleeing from Pharaoh's army only to face a body of water.This is in Wadi Watir:

The Beach at the Red Sea Crossing Site:

A Column in Nuweiba - contained Phoenician engravings, was said to be built during the reign of
Prophet Sulaiman alaihi salam to commemorate a great miracle of Allah:

<Note: During the 6 Day War, Israeli soldiers chiseled off most of the engravings!>


Another column found nearby:

3D Models of the Red Sea at the "Crossing Site"; this is how the ocean floor looks like at Gulf of Aqaba...Subhanallah! There's an underwater land bridge:

Looking across the Red Sea from Saudi Arabia to the beach at Nuweiba; Imagine the fear and panic felt by the people,
getting trapped between the Sea and Pharoah's Army out to kill them all:

Further proof that Pharoah and his Army perished in this location...divers we're sent in; and this is what they found...


Chariot wheel:

Chariot of Thutmoses IV:

The Miracle about the Pharaoh in the Quran - a well preserved non-mummified Pharaoh exactly as mentioned in these verses:


وَجَاوَزْنَا بِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ الْبَحْرَ فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ وَجُنُودُهُ بَغْيًا وَعَدْوًا حَتَّى إِذَا أَدْرَكَهُ الْغَرَقُ قَالَ آمَنتُ أَنَّهُ لا إِلِـهَ إِلاَّ الَّذِي آمَنَتْ بِهِ بَنُو إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَنَاْ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ (10:90)

10:90 (Asad) And We brought the children of Israel across the sea; and thereupon Pharaoh and his hosts pursued them with vehement insolence and tyranny, until [they were overwhelmed by the waters of the sea. And] when he was about to drown, [Pharaoh] exclaimed: [110] "I have come to believe that there is no deity save Him in whom the children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender themselves unto Him!"


آلآنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنتَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ (10:91)


10:91 (Asad) [But God said:] "Now? [111] -when ever before this thou hast been rebelling [against Us], and hast been among those who spread corruption?


فَالْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ آيَةً وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ النَّاسِ عَنْ آيَاتِنَا لَغَافِلُونَ (10:92)


10:92 (Asad) [Nay,] but today We shall save [preserve] only thy body, [112] so that thou may be a [warning] sign unto those who will come after thee: for, behold, a good many people are heedless of Our messages!





Side note, a dejavu event will take place when this same Dajjal would think he have cornered the Muslims at a Masjid in Damascus, only to have Isa Son Of Mary descend from the Heavens and give chase to him!


Verily transgressors will meet horrific ends, just like what happened to the Pharaoh - a God wannabe.

By now, photo' really won't be as convincing as some video's... the following is very exciting. If you like history, you'll love this:




A three part series which proves that Sinai is in Arabia, this one is really well documented:







And this one too:





And this one also:




Convinced? I'd like to hear your opinions :)

Scimi

[Al-manar]

The Exodus totaled around 600,000 men, so if you were to take in all the women & children, the total number would easily swell to more than 2,000,000 people.....If anyone has been to the traditional Mt.Sinai in Egypt, you would have doubts of how 2,000,000 people would ever have made an encampment there.

Scimi

:sl:

you know Scimi, the writer (saleebi) is not arguing against the accuracy of the Bible (he believes in it as totally accurate) but he argues that its readers misunderstood it .....
he wants to erase the whole scene in Palestine etc... and go south near Yemen....
he really passed the limits ,and shocked the scholars (Muslims,Christians,Jews,atheists)....

his theory not only against Quran,Bible but archaeological evidences as well ...

I think better we discuss item by item ...
I started with the issue of Abraham , and hope we all focus on it ....

do you think Abraham's journey while having Ismael ,wasn't north west of Arabia to Mecca?

[جوري]

I am removing the article due to its dubious nature, see subsequent post on the matter.

[Scimitar]

I've read some of his work, and Kamal Salibi has some valid points - but goes wrong in some places in my opinion. Here is where I got "fascinated" by him. Basically, the argument made by the book is that most of the events in the Old Testament (all the events before 586 BCE) did not take place in Palestine, but rather in Western Arabia, what we today now know as the Hijaz region.


This is interesting information from Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Abu Hurairah :


The angel of death was sent to Moses and when he went to him, Moses slapped him severely, spoiling one of his eyes. The angel went back to his Lord, and said, "You sent me to a slave who does not want to die." Allah restored his eye and said, "Go back and tell him (i.e. Moses) to place his hand over the back of an ox, for he will be allowed to live for a number of years equal to the number of hairs coming under his hand." (So the angel came to him and told him the same). Then Moses asked, "O my Lord! What will be then?" He said, "Death will be then." He said, "(Let it be) now." He asked Allah that He bring him near the Sacred Land at a distance of a stone's throw. Allah's Apostle said, "Were I there I would show you the grave of Moses by the way near the red sand hill." (Bukhari)

Feel free to find out where this RED SAND HILL is located.....any input is highly appreciated.


We all know that Prophet Musa alaihi salam never made into the Holy Lands; he died when the Bani Israeel were roving bands roaming the land of MADYAN/MIDIAN in ARABIA.


Another interesting Hadith about the Isra' Journey:

Jibreel said: "Alight and pray here." The Holy Prophet did so then remounted. Jibreel said: "Do you know where you prayed?" He said no. Jibreel said: "You prayed in Madyan at the tree of Musa." The Burâq continued his lightning flight, then Jibreel said: "Alight and pray here." He did so then remounted, then Jibreel said: "Do you know where you prayed?" He said no. Jibreel said: "You prayed at the mountain of Sînâ' where Allah addressed Musa." Then he reached a land where the palaces of al-Shâm became visible to him. Jibreel said to him: "Alight and pray." He did so and remounted, then the Burâq continued his lightning flight and Jibreel said: "Do you know where you prayed?" He said no. Jibreel said: "You prayed in Bayt Laham, where `Isa ibn Maryam was born."... He continued travelling until he reached the city of the Hallowed House and he entered it by its Southern gate. He dismounted the Burâq and tied it at the gate of the mosque, using the ring by which the Holy Prophet tied it before him. "We entered the mosque from a gate through which the sun and the moon could be seen when they set. I prayed in the mosque for as long as Allah wished." – (Nasa'i, al-Bayhaqi)

This avenue of thought led me into some serious differences of opinion with Kamal Salibi. Strangely enough, I found some of the works of Christian explorers to hold more weight... but since we're on the topic of histroy, and we're talking old prophets. Here is something I think you should really take a look at, if you fascination for archaeological mystery - then this is something that is another dot, that needs connecting... a clue, if you like:

http://mosestablet.info/en/


Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFoc-JijIyU
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvY9O1rGy4M
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btsFOZELaGI&
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxlwnXG0rac
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPt6UXc9mnA

Question you really gotta ask yourself is, "Why is Musa AS story the most mentioned in the Quran?"

Scimi

EDIT: I almost forgot, you asked:

do you think Abraham's journey while having Ismael ,wasn't north west of Arabia to Mecca?

I believe that Ibraheem AS indeed stopped in "The Valley of Bakkah" which is indeed, Makkah today. I also believe the whole account ala the hajj ritual in Islam. Why do you ask?

[جوري]

I finished reading and forwarded the article to a scholar who wrote me this back:

من بحثي رئيس الجمعية هو عيسى الشارقي وهو يخفي سريرته بالكلام العلمي المنمق حتى يخدع العامة، من يعرفه جيدا يقول عنه شيعي علماني

Here is some comments from Shia3 asking for their death

أتقوا الله يامن تقوموا بالدفاع عن تلك الفئة الضالة المضلة فهم ومنطلق الشرع كما اجتمعت فقهاء الشيعة منهم السيد الخوئي وكثير منهم على بطلان دعوتهم ودعوهم إلى الكف ولكن لم يكفوا عن ذلك ولا زلت أذكر إيمانهم بهذه الفكرة الضالة كما قال أحدهم أنني مؤمن بهذه الفكرة وصحتها بإيماني بوجودك أمامي فلا تحاول إقناعي بالرجوع عنها رغم الكثير منهم من رجعوا وتابوا بعد ما عرفوا بأنهم ضللوا وإليكم نموذج للرد عليهم .
هذا الإستفتاء عينة عنهم :
السؤال:
ظهرت في البحرين قبل 15 سنه تقريبا بدعة السفارة الكاذبه وقد ظهرت فتاوى فقهاء الشيعة بالإجماع على أن هذه الجماعة يجب مقاطعتهم ليرجعوا عن غيهم وضلالهم ولكنهم كانوا يعملون في الخفاء واليوم وبعد الإنفراج السياسي أخذا يعملون ويتحركون بقوه؟؟مايلفت للنظر أن هناك آراء من قبل بعض المدعين من طلبة العلوم الدينية يقول بأن هؤلاء لايقاطعون بل لابد من الحوار معهم وإذا لم يقتنعوا يبقى لهم رأيهم لأن الإسلام يحترم أراء الآخرين؟؟ وساعدهم على ذلك هو أن جماعة البدعة قد وضعوا فتاوى على موقعهم في الإنترنت لفتاوى أحتمل كذبها ونسبوها الى مكتب السيد القائد الخامنائي؟؟ ماراى سماحتكم في ذلك؟؟
الجواب:
كل من يقول بالسفارة يعد صاحب بدعه في الدين ودمه هدر .
من أجوبة سماحة السيد كاظم الحائري
http://www.alhaeri.org/istifta/page3.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

المتتبع للخطاب الثقافي لهذه الجمعية, يلاحظ بأنها لا تقوم على ثوابت و أسس ثابتة أو صحيحة. فتارة هي إسلامية, بطريقة غير مصرّح بها, و تارة هي حداثية, و أحياناً أخرى لادينية أساساً. خطابها يكتنفه الغموض و الهشّاشة. احياناً تذكرني بالخطاب المسيحي المتشدد عندما يتحدث حول الإسلام و المسلمين و الشقاقات التي تحدث بين أفراد البيت المسلم.
خطابهم كله تشكيك وأوهام و مغالطات في الإسلام و معرفة الله و الكثير من الحقائق التي نؤمن بها.

There is more but just search if you want about their president.

__________________________________________________ _________

Thus just as I suspected a secular shiite article hidden behind science and articulation. Al7mdullilah my first instincts and even at times basic understanding is usually correct. I'd take it with a grain of salt..

:w:

[Ali_008]

:sl:



وَمِمَّنْ حَوْلَكُم مِّنَ الاٌّعْرَابِ مُنَـفِقُونَ وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الْمَدِينَةِ مَرَدُواْ عَلَى النَّفَاقِ لاَ تَعْلَمُهُمْ نَحْنُ نَعْلَمُهُمْ سَنُعَذِّبُهُم مَّرَّتَيْنِ ثُمَّ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى عَذَابٍ عَظِيمٍ

Muhsin Khan
And among the bedouins round about you, some are hypocrites, and so are some among the people of Al-Madinah, they exaggerate and persist in hypocrisy, you (O Muhammad SAW) know them not, We know them. We shall punish them twice, and thereafter they shall be brought back to a great (horrible) torment. (9:101)

وَإِذْ قَالَت طَّآئِفَةٌ مِّنْهُمْ يأَهْلَ يَثْرِبَ لاَ مُقَامَ لَكُمْ فَارْجِعُواْ وَيَسْتَأْذِنُ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُمُالنَّبِىَّ يَقُولُونَ إِنَّ بُيُوتَنَا عَوْرَةٌ وَمَا هِىَ بِعَوْرَةٍ إِن يُرِيدُونَ إِلاَّ فِرَاراً

Pickthall
And when a party of them said: O folk of Yathrib! There is no stand (possible) for you, therefor turn back. And certain of them (even) sought permission of the Prophet, saying: Our homes lie open (to the enemy). And they lay not open. They but wished to flee. (33:13)

:wasalamex

JazakAllah Khair sis for posting these verses. I knew that Madinah was mentioned; it was the mention of "Yathrib" that I thought wasn't. I simply forgot about verses like these. I need to start reading the Qur'an a lot more than what I'm doing now. imsad

Thanks again.

[MustafaMc]

Thus just as I suspected a secular shiite article hidden behind science and articulation. Al7mdullilah my first instincts and even at times basic understanding is usually correct. I'd take it with a grain of salt..

Assalamu alaikum, which article are you referring to as I am a bit confused?

[جوري]

Assalamu alaikum, which article are you referring to as I am a bit confused?

wa3lykoum asalaam wr wb
in reference to the subject matter of the origins of the bible- I don't wish to link you to it as it would feel that I am perpetuating shiite ideology..

[MustafaMc]

I've read some of his work, and Kamal Salibi has some valid points - but goes wrong in some places in my opinion

Assalamu alaikum, Brother Scimi. I appreciate your input. I was intrigued by the possibilities presented by this book, but I have not come to a conclusion as to how much of it to believe. I will use the Quran and hadith as the 'gold standard' and reject what disagrees with it as you indicated you have as well. Your posts are most usually very interesting and bring a different perspective from most others. Jazak Allahu khayran.

[MustafaMc]

wa3lykoum asalaam wr wb
in reference to the subject matter of the origins of the bible- I don't wish to link you to it as it would feel that I am perpetuating shiite ideology..

Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatu'Allahi wa barakatuh, sister. I understand now. Jazak Allahu khayran for the clarification.

[جوري]

Wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatu'Allahi wa barakatuh, sister. I understand now. Jazak Allahu khayran for the clarification.

I'll send it to you by PM in sha Allah, that way you can read it in private without using the forum to openly perpetuate their agenda..

:w:

[Al-manar]

I am removing the article due to its dubious nature, see subsequent post on the matter.

I don't want a whole article ,just quote where you claim,he wrote early Muslims were not calling Egypt (misr)..... otherwise, you have to apologize to the readers for your misleading(let alone rude) posts...

in reference to the subject matter of the origins of the bible- I don't wish to link you to it as it would feel that I am perpetuating shiite ideology..

first :where is that difference between shia and sunna with regard to the subject matter of the origins of the bible?

second:you believe quoting shia (or even atheist), to the subject matter of the origins of the bible ..is a propaganda for shia .... are you serious ?!!!

the book under discussion " the bible came from Arabia" that Bro Mustafa brought was written by A christian ,does it mean he makes propaganda for Christianity?!!

[Al-manar]

:sl:

I've read some of his work, and Kamal Salibi has some valid points - but goes wrong in some places in my opinion.

I think his argument either to be taken entirely or rejected entirely,there is no in between......

I used to whenever I read a work to appreciate the valid points and reject the far fetched ones .... but the case with Saleebi is different ,away from his linguistic analysis (which seems at times interesting) ,I don't find his arguments to be valid,supported by proofs...

either to take the bible scene to the south of Arabia(as he suggests) or remain up there where all think it to be....

Feel free to find out where this RED SAND HILL is located.....any input is highly appreciated.

It is located according to another authentic Hadith by the road to Alaqsa mosque....

Anas b. malik reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I happened to pass by Moses on the occasion of the Night journey(to Al-Aqsa Mosque) near the red mound (and found him) saying his prayer in his grave. (Sahih muslim,Book #030, Hadith #5858)

feel free to suggest the prayer to be spiritual ,but the location is clearly somewhere near Al-Aqsa Mosque not south of Arabia...


thanx Bro scimi for your input (that is informative and related to the topic)

I will use the Quran and hadith as the 'gold standard' and reject what disagrees with it

:sl:
exactly ,so far applying that gold standard (let alone the standard of archaeology,bible narratives) , it seems for me that there is nothing to agree with the writer .....

:wa:

[Scimitar]

Assalamu alaikum, Brother Scimi. I appreciate your input. I was intrigued by the possibilities presented by this book, but I have not come to a conclusion as to how much of it to believe. I will use the Quran and hadith as the 'gold standard' and reject what disagrees with it as you indicated you have as well. Your posts are most usually very interesting and bring a different perspective from most others. Jazak Allahu khayran.

Walakum Salaam.

Here's the thing about Kamal Salibi. He's not the first to hypothesise from biblical context, the place names and locations of sites, for example (not that these cannot be refuted - they have been, soundly too - but not conclusively, this is where people get confused a lot). Kamal also makes some pretty brash claims about historical timelines. For example - Jesus AS was around 3-400 yrs before the BC calender? wasn't even a resident of Jerusalem, travelled to Makkah and took the ark of the covenant from an Arab... come on. "Shrooms" come to mind... very trippy indeed.

I'm not denying that his M.O is good, because it is. he uses alternative methodology in order to determine other "possibilities" - that's all. My problem is with his lack of impartial bias in his works. This is probably why he was shunned by the larger historic community... I mean, even Graham Hancock has a better rep than Kamal did in these circles. Kamal passed away last September.

I think his argument either to be taken entirely or rejected entirely,there is no in between......

I used to whenever I read a work to appreciate the valid points and reject the far fetched ones .... but the case with Saleebi is different ,away from his linguistic analysis (which seems at times interesting) ,I don't find his arguments to be valid,supported by proofs...

either to take the bible scene to the south of Arabia(as he suggests) or remain up there where all think it to be....

Yes. One thing he doesn't take into consideration at all is that during biblical times - the boundaries of Arabia were not set... infact, the boundaries of Arabia stretched up to Jerusalem. The boundaries of nations set in place today, were carved up by the British between 1918 and 1932. And boundaries had shifted before then too, namely in the late 1700's. He does make some very vital errors in some of his works.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
Feel free to find out where this RED SAND HILL is located.....any input is highly appreciated.
It is located according to another authentic Hadith by the road to Alaqsa mosque....

Anas b. malik reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I happened to pass by Moses on the occasion of the Night journey(to Al-Aqsa Mosque) near the red mound (and found him) saying his prayer in his grave. (Sahih muslim,Book #030, Hadith #5858)

feel free to suggest the prayer to be spiritual ,but the location is clearly somewhere near Al-Aqsa Mosque not south of Arabia...


thanx Bro scimi for your input (that is informative and related to the topic)

Jazak-Allah khair akhi, and No, I agree, it was a literal prayer. I am aware of the hadeeth you posted too. But the location in modern day is said to be lost. Allah knows best.

However, at this point - I want to drop the penny. I posted info regarding mount Sinai... about its real location (Jabal al Laws, Madyan, Arabia). Why is this so significant?

I learnt a few years back, that whenever we get answers to questions, we learn to ask better questions. Try this for size, ok? All and every reputable biblical scholar, as well as Jewish rabbi, knows that Sinai is in Arabia... So why have they remained silent???

Here is something to consider - if you can follow my train of thought. If not, I will let you know what that "train of thought" is in my next post:

This Hadith is god-smack in the face.....revealing the Sinai Mountains as SAFE HAVEN from Bani Adam's greatest Fitnah.....the DAJJAL; there leaves little doubt about the importance of this sacred site.

قال صلى الله عليه وسلم (انذركم المسيح _اي الدجال _يمكث في الارض ,اربعين صباحا يبلغ سلطانه كل منهل لا يأتي أربعة مساجد :الكعبه ومسجد الرسول ومسجد الاقصى والطور)اخرجه احمد

Prophet Mohammad صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "I warn you regarding the Dajjal Messiah. He will remain on Earth for 40 mornings. His dominion will reach everywhere. He will not come to 4 mosques: the Ka'ba, the Messenger's Mosque, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and theTur." (Musnad Ahmad)


<< important note - even the Al-Aqsa Masjid [area of Sham As-Shareef] is also off limits to this One Eyed La'een >>

Mount Tur... if you watch the vids I posted, you will clearly see where that mount is...

Scimi

[Al-manar]

:sl:

Here's the thing about Kamal Salibi. He's not the first to hypothesise from biblical context, the place names and locations of sites

That is true ..

Here is something to consider - if you can follow my train of thought. If not, I will let you know what that "train of thought" is in my next post

I'm looking forward to your next post ,I need to get fuller picture of your thoughts in the matter.. and I share you mine as well...

:wa:

[Scimitar]

Ok, here is my 2 dirhams on the whole Sinai issue.

For thousands of years, Christians, as well as Jews, have been making a pilgrimage to Sinai - to a fake site, located in the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt.

All the Biblical Scholars and priests as well as Jewish Rabbi's know that Sinai is in Arabia... why have they kept silent?

let's track back to 1918. The Balfour declaration was signed by the Brits, the Yanks and the French in order to recognise an independent state of Israel in Palestine - at the behest of mass displacement of people, genocide which is still going on and blatant disregard for human rights... the reason (excuse) given? The land they carved out as Israel, is the promised land of the Jews - The sites of antiquity are all from their scriptures (Torah / OT) so these Jews have a "right" upon the land.

Enter Kamal Salibi, whose real MO remained undiscovered until we recognise the direction his misinforative analysis takes us. Kamal sponsored the view that most of the biblical accounts of history are attached to Arabia and not Jerusalem. Let's pause here for a second and move on to another point:

Saudi Arabia's royal house is in bits at the moment. Behind the scenes there is much unrest amongst the royals, as they are all aware of the prophecies from hadeeth which foretold of a King whose name would that of an animal (King Fahd whose name means Leopard). The hadeeth goes on to mention that after he passes, another will take his place and his name will be Abdullah (The current King and Cutodian of the two holy masjids)... and after he passes, another will take his place from the family, but the people will be against him - at this time, the arrival of dajjal will be close.

Note, that in the Quran there are specific verses which seem to be directed at the custodians of the haramain - regarding the issue of them making water available for pilgrims and expanding the site - the verse goes on to mention that these favours will be of no use if they had not ruled with fear of Allah in their hearts... the current rulership of Hejaaz is very reflective of these ayahs. I'm sorry I do not have references to hand.

Why is the state of Saudi's royal house so important here? We must realise that the Brits placed the Sauds in power over Hejaaz, it was the Brits who carved out the boundaries of Arabia, and other surrounding countries early last century... what was their plan? The sauds were placed in power to be subservient puppets to the British, and later the Americans - as was planned very early on during the time of Hempher's travels to Arabia some time before. There is a whole bunch of rich history into the house of Saud - and it's very dark.

Notice, the House of Saud have erected a very tall fence and a guard tower over the perimieter of the REAL Mount Sinai... why? To keep the location hidden until when?...

Look, I spell it out simply for you. Millions to billions of Jews and Christians have gone on a pilgrimage to Sinai - not knowing that the site is a fake... the real one is in Arabia.

If the west ever need a reason to attack Arabia, they can use the same reason they did for attacking Palestine - "it's biblically related to our history". Exept this time, it's not just Jews who will cause the ruckus... but the Christians too. Just think how conned they feel that they have been lied to all this time, and how angry the Jewish and Christian world will be at being lied to for not hundreds... but thousands of years. This could quite possibly be the worlds most well kept religious con of all time...

Kamal Salibi was a disinfo agent who I suspect worked for the zionist agenda in propagating the idea that Arabia is crypto Christian land, meaning that the Jews have a right to it - by their flawed intellect and reasoning. It is clear to see in his works that the agenda he pushed while he was alive, was pro zionist, if you could read between the lines.

Scimi

[Al-manar]

:sl:

For thousands of years, Christians, as well as Jews, have been making a pilgrimage to Sinai - to a fake site, located in the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt.

we agree to follow "the gold standard (Quran&sunna) " in our discussion isn't it?

According to the Quran ,the mountain where Moses received revelation, where the children of Israel stayed for years before going east to (sham) is called El-Tor..

Holy Quran 28:46 Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) TUR when we called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee: in order that they may receive admonition.

2:93 And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai): (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and hearken (to the Law)": They said:" We hear, and we disobey:" And they had to drink into their hearts (of the taint) of the calf because of their Faithlessness. Say: "Vile indeed are the behests of your Faith if ye have any faith

19:52 And we called him from the right side of Mount (Sinai), and made him draw near to Us, for mystic (converse).

28:29 Now when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he perceived a fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said to his family: "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope to bring you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that ye may warm yourselves."

also mentioned in 2:63 ,4:154 ,20:80 ,28:46 ,52:1

where is that (Tur) mountain?

Holy Quran 95:2 :And by (Mount) Tur of Sinai!

The Quranic scene of the exodus is obviously up there in Sinai....

note: that mountain is mentioned in the quran 12 times , in other words that is the most mentioned place on Earth ever in the Quran ... that makes me really curious to visit it ....

I'm now in a visit to my country (Egypt), and think seriously going there ,it is just a long trip from the city I live in....

to add, Egypt is the most mentioned country in the Quran as well ....

unless we accept the theory of Saleebi ,turning it into a small town in South Arabia .....:sunny:

:wa:

[Al-manar]

let's expose the man's fallacies one by one:


Fallacy No1 (the exodus) :


The Quranic view on the exodus?

1- It was from Egypt (north east of Africa), they went East ,had obstacle of sea water , they stayed by a mountain El-Tor which is located in Sinai ,where Moses received revelation,where they took the covenant, received the law etc etc etc...

all that is mentioned in the Quran in the clearest terms ...


Saleebi's (the writer) view on the exodus? ?

That Abraham with his wife Sara moved after famine to a small town called (msrma) located by Abha the capital of Asir province in south Saudi Arabia

and his seed settled there till the exodus ,which took the route up north till Jeddah then north etc......


this is the map he used in his book... that line like the snake is the suggested route (from south to north) and the red sea on the left ...

those who challenge me to refute the man's theory(I doubt they even bothered reading him carefully)..... well that is just the beginning....









to be continued
......

[Pygoscelis]

Well this has been a fun read.

These events may not have taken place where they are said to? They could have taken place in a whole other set of locations? And that is coming from those who believe in them and hold them holy and hte revealed truth etc?

One question is that i noticed you referring to atheist scholars looking at this. I have to wonder why they would. To atheist scholars this would be rather like arguing over where the Iliad and Odyssey specifically took place or where King Arthur fought some of his legendary battles.

Also, it is rare on here that I see the tribalism set aside and muslims trash talking other muslims. That is usually reserved for the rest of us ;D Perhaps we could finally all rise above that stuff and focus on the topic instead of board members.

[Al-manar]

One question is that i noticed you referring to atheist scholars looking at this. I have to wonder why they would. To atheist scholars this would be rather like arguing over where the Iliad and Odyssey specifically took place or where King Arthur fought some of his legendary battles.

you are right. but let me clarify a point ...the work by the atheist (the way he wrote shows he doesn't belong to any religion) tried to refute the man with the historical ,archaeological findings available ...

his intention wasn't to say the bible is right and the man is wrong......

he just tried to say that the man theory ,deleting the whole biblical,Israeli activities from the location is believed to have been, to another location south of Arabia, is wrong... he thinks archaeology and written history Egyptian,Assyrian etc ... puts the man's theory into serious trouble....

my previous post doesn't depend on the work of the atheist . It depends on my believe in the Quran as the word of God ......

it is rare on here that I see the tribalism set aside and Muslims trash talking other Muslims. That is usually reserved for the rest of us ;D .

and that is something unacceptable for me, non-Muslims shouldn't be trashed,for being merely non-Muslims.

Perhaps we could finally all rise above that stuff and focus on the topic .

I have decided that time ago ,I sent my message to the mods ,and have no more to say ....

we never had a conversation Pygoscelis before .....

what kind of stuff you usually read in the board ?

[Muslim Woman]

:wa:

:sl:


....and all of a sudden she jumped in the middle of the discussion,

br. please calm down.

It's ok for a participant to take part in the discussion . I request all Muslim sisters & brothers to show more patience to each other and also to our non Muslim participants . We can't agree with each other but harsh words should be avoided.

May Allah increases us in patience.

[MustafaMc]

If we can bring the discussion back to the topic at hand and leave personal vendettas behind, I believe we can all learn something in this thread.

The book by Salibi makes some astounding claims that are either true or they are false. I doubt that there is enough evidence to ascertain the veracity of the claims without extensive archeological excavations. Again the linguistic evidences presented are admitedly circumstantial and should be taken with a grain of salt at best, but I believe the topic deserves a fair discussion. It seems that certain members have already made up their mind and are set on proving the book is false. The jury is still out for me, but I trust Brother Scimi's judgement and his concerns of truthfulness due to my positive interactions with him and respect for his views. If the book is false then the author either made an innocent mistake and made inaccurate conclusions based on his own limited understanding or he intentionally put forward misinformation (lies) for some ulterior, hidden agenda. I admit that the later may very well be the case, but then the question becomes, "Why would someone make those claims and what are they ultimately trying to achieve in doing so?" Regardless, I believe this is an extremely important topic and deserves to be discussed in a civil manner. If the Quran and hadith can be shown conclusively to place events on an actual map relative to known places, then that evidence will have primary importance. I am interested in hearing points and counterpoints as I am striving to learn.

[Muhaba]

that is quite interesting.

it's true that Juresalam is where it is. it's not like it's supposed to be some place else. it's also true that Prophet Ibrahim travelled first from his homeland, after he was cast out by his father, and later to Makkah where he left his wife and child near the house of Allah.

another fact is that the jews, after leaving Egypt, travelled a lot and for 40 years they were lost, unable to find the Holy land because of their sins. So all that travelling may have happened in the areas named in teh book, which may be why there are names similar to those in the Bible.

And Allah knows best.
what is the significance of this discovery? will it help Islam in some way?

[جوري]

what is the significance of this discovery? will it help Islam in some way?

I think perhaps it might help the Jews call dibs on more areas in the middle east..
One thing I do wonder about is if the world map looked then as it does now.. Allah swt knows best..

[~Raindrop~]

:sl:

Perhaps we could finally all rise above that stuff and focus on the topic instead of board members.

Thank you, Pygoscelis.

Please focus on the topic. If you seem to be having problems with another member, please report it to the mods so we can deal with it accordingly.
We may disagree with each other at times, but that is expected. There is no need to resort to personal attacks. Either debate in a civilised manner, or leave it altogether.

Please heed this warning. Failing to do so will result in warnings/infractions being issued.

جزاك الله خيرا

:w:

[MustafaMc]

what is the significance of this discovery? will it help Islam in some way?

If it is true, then it gives a better understanding of where ancient Biblical events took place. These events often have parallels in the Quran. If it is false, then it brings to light that someone is trying to spread misinformation for some ulterior motive.

I think perhaps it might help the Jews call dibs on more areas in the middle east..

Yes, this thought occured to me as well that Israel may start making claims on West Arabia due to supposed links to their ancestry. However, if it is true, it calls into question Israeli claims to Palestine for the same reason. My opinion is that the American Indian has much more claim to the entirety of USA than does Israel to any part of the Middle East. The claims made based on the Bible declaring a 'Promised Land' to the children of Abraham should hold absolutely no geo-political weight today. If anything it clarifies that the descendants of Abraham through Ishmael did in fact possess this land.

[MustafaMc]

Thank you, Pygoscelis.

Please focus on the topic.

Actually, I thought that he was trying to bring the discussion back to the opening topic. Although a few inappropriate comments were made, they pale in comparison to those made by others.

[Al-manar]

:sl:

peace

Thank you mods for deleting some off topic posts ,I just wonder why her initial offensive posts remained?!


the prophet said:

Narrated Anas: Allah's Apostle said, "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one. People asked, "O Allah's Apostle! It is all right to help him if he is oppressed, but how should we help him if he is an oppressor?" The Prophet said, "By preventing him from oppressing others."


Narrated 'Aisha:
The Quraish people became very worried about the Makhzumiya lady who had committed theft. They said, "Nobody can speak (in favor of the lady) to Allah's Apostle and nobody dares do that except Usama who is the favorite of Allah's Apostle. " When Usama spoke to Allah's Apostle about that matter, Allah's Apostle said, "Do you intercede (with me) to violate one of the legal punishment of Allah?" Then he got up and addressed the people, saying, "O people! The nations before you went astray because if a noble person committed theft, they used to leave him, but if a weak person among them committed theft, they used to inflict the legal punishment on him.

friendship is fine ,but laws and justice are above friendship, isn't it?...

another fact is that the Jews, after leaving Egypt, travelled a lot and for 40 years they were lost, unable to find the Holy land because of their sins. So all that travelling may have happened in the areas named in the book, which may be why there are names similar to those in the Bible..

peace

I don't think that is possible,you know what is the man's theory?

he claim that they parted not from the African Egypt (Msr) ,but from the southern small town of Saudi Arabia (Msrma).......

he says the African Egypt of the bible and Quran not the Egypt of the exodus (which for him a town in south Arabia).....

in the Quran there are ample proofs that Egypt is the Egypt we know,the route of the exodus was east not north ,they settled in Sinai by the mountain Tur ,received the law,the covenant there , etc etc etc...

the man's argument indeed in trouble .........

and I will show next posts more of his shortcomings ...

Regards

:wa:

[MustafaMc]

Quran 12:99 And when they came in before Joseph, he took his parents unto him, and said: Come into Egypt safe, if Allah will!

Falamma dakhaloo AAala yoosufa awa ilayhi abawayhi waqala odkhuloo misra in shaa Allahu amineena

I assume that the Arabic 'Misra' equates to 'Egypt' in the same way that 'Yusuf' does to 'Joseph'. What Islamic or archeological evidence is there that 'Misra' is actually Egypt where the Pyramids are located?

[Al-manar]

:sl:


The proofs that 'Misra' is actually Egypt where the Pyramids are located?


First :

let's see what before and after Islam surrounding nation to Egypt called it with



In the Amarna letters (1350s – 1330s BC) during the Eighteenth dynasty of ancient Egypt. it is called Misri.

In syrian Ugaritic they called it Msrm

In Assyria and babylon was called Musri

In Arabic (before and after Islam)Misr

In Hebrew Misráyim

some theories have been suggested to the origin of the name ,including that the name coming from one of Noah's descendants through Ham,who is called Mizraim and is supposed to have settled there and the Egyptians are descendant of him ....


one thing to note,that though Arabs call Egypt misr , the word Misr itself has a meaning in Arabic ,it does mean (a big city with all means of living) ....

note the folowing verse:


Holy Quran 2:61
atastabdiloona allathee huwa adna biallathee huwa khayrun ihbitoo misran fa-inna lakum ma saaltum


most translators translated the word (misr) as city,town ...


eg; Yusuf Ali

Holy Quran 2:61He said: "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!"

Shakir
Holy Quran 2:61 He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city


with that sense we can call any city (misr) .......

but we shouldn't forget that the Arabic name (misr) which means ( City) has nothing to do with the name (misr) they gave to Egypt......

I have just quoted the non Arab nations who called it with similar names ....


more next post

peace
:sl:

[Muhaba]

Oh I didn't realize that they were changing the names of areas like that? Misr is egypt, that's definately a well-known historical fact. both western and islamic history proves it. pharoahs were in egypt and the mummy of the pharoah who drowned in the time of Prophet Moses (AS) is also supposedly still in egypt.

Prophet Joseph went to egypt and his decendents lived there and ruled there for many centuries. then at the time of Prophet Musa (AS), the children of israel were persecuted for the very reason that their people had ruled over the Egyptians for so long. This is even proven from Surah Momin in which a person from the people of Pharoah remind his people that Prophet Joseph had come to them. and that shows that Prophet Joseph was indeed in the same place as the pharoah and everyone knows today that pharoahs were in egypt.

[Muhaba]

I think perhaps it might help the Jews call dibs on more areas in the middle east..
One thing I do wonder about is if the world map looked then as it does now.. Allah swt knows best..

they always have some ulterior motive for everything they do.

historical maps are really interesting to study.

[Pygoscelis]

they always have some ulterior motive for everything they do.

historical maps are really interesting to study.

I think you may be on to something there, but I doubt that is the whole of it.

[جوري]

Actually, I thought that he was trying to bring the discussion back to the opening topic. Although a few inappropriate comments were made, they pale in comparison to those made by others.

Although I enjoy the topic you started and would have loved to explore it from the angles you presented or if possible appropriately referenced opposing views. I find the smarmy, unctuous and ingratiating nature of one member here intolerable and beyond that the misuse and erroneous application of hadith to suit a venomous personal agenda precluding from further participation.

I am actually glad the matter is brought before the mods so they can better dissect what seeps in (in whatever form) inflammatory or not to condition the thought process of others or to insert frank deviant ideologies in it!

:w:

[Muhaba]

:sl:


one thing to note,that though Arabs call Egypt misr , the word Misr itself has a meaning in Arabic ,it does mean (a big city with all means of living) ....

note the folowing verse:


Holy Quran 2:61
atastabdiloona allathee huwa adna biallathee huwa khayrun ihbitoo misran fa-inna lakum ma saaltum


most translators translated the word (misr) as city,town ...


eg; Yusuf Ali

Holy Quran 2:61He said: "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!"

Shakir
Holy Quran 2:61 He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city


with that sense we can call any city (misr) .......

but we shouldn't forget that the Arabic name (misr) which means ( City) has nothing to do with the name (misr) they gave to Egypt......

I have just quoted the non Arab nations who called it with similar names ....


more next post

peace
:sl:

i wanted to add that this verse says misran which is indefinate noun so it means "a city" or "any city." the tanwin at the end of the noun shows that it is indefinate noun(not proper noun). misr is the country. misran is "a city."

Furthermore, the interpretation of the Quran is not just based on the words, but on the interpretations of the Final Prophet (SAW) and the sahaba after him. it's not right to take a word and reinterprete it how we like just because it could've meant that thing.

[Al-manar]

:sl:

i wanted to add that this verse says misran which is indefinate noun so it means "a city" or "any city." the tanwin at the end of the noun shows that it is indefinate noun(not proper noun). misr is the country. misran is "a city."

Exactly but I have 2 notes

1- some classic Arabic scholars(and some English translations) interpreted it as referring to (Egypt),you know why?

in spite of their acceptance of the the reading with the tanwin ,(other reading,less common without tanwin)...... they believe that tanwin could be added in that case and still the meaning (Egypt)

look at the classic tafsirs eg; I know you can read Arabic and (I'm sure you can translate"if you wish" the following in English better than me)


Tafsir Alqurtubi wrote:

. وقالت طائفة ممن صَرَفها أيضاً: أراد مِصْرَ فرعون بعينها. استدلّ الأوّلون بما ٱقتضاه ظاهر القرآن من أمرهم دخول القرية، وبما تظاهرت به الرواية أنهم سكنوا الشام بعد التِّيه. وٱستدلّ الآخرون بما في القرآن من أن الله أوْرث بني إسرائيل ديار آل فرعون وآثارهم، وأجازوا صرفها. قال الأخفش والكسائي: لخفّتها وشبهها بِهنْد ودَعْد؛ وأنشد:
لم تَتَلَفّعْ بفضل مِئزرها دَعْدٌ ولم تُسْقَ دَعْدُ في العُلَبِ


also Tafsir Alrazi
وفي مصحف عبد الله وقرأ به الأعمش: { ٱهْبِطُواْ مِصْرًا } بغير تنوين كقوله: { أَدْخِلُواْ مِصْرًا } واختلف المفسرون في قوله: { ٱهْبِطُواْ مِصْرًا } روي عن ابن مسعود وأبي بن كعب ترك التنوين، وقال الحسن: الألف في مصراً زيادة من الكاتب فحينئذ تكون معرفة فيجب أن تحمل على ما هو المختص بهذا الاسم وهو البلد الذي كان فيه فرعون وهو مروي عن أبي العالية والربيع، وأما الذين قرؤوا بالتنوين وهي القراءة المشهورة فقد اختلفوا، فمنهم من قال: المراد البلد الذي كان فيه فرعون ودخول التنوين فيه كدخوله في نوح ولوط، وقال آخرون: المراد الأمر بدخول أي بلد كان كأنه قيل لهم ادخلوا بلداً أي بلد كان لتجدوا فيه هذه الأشياء، وبالجملة فالمفسرون قد اختلفوا في أن المراد من مصر هو البلد الذي كانوا
فيه أولاً أو بلد آخر

In other words we can call Egypt "misran",with tanween, in that verse...

still I believe ,if we add the context factor, to the language factor, the meaning "City" is stronger.....


2- I should have added the English letters represented "tanwin" when I put the word "misran,City" in English....thank you for the note...

but away from the verse we can't say "misran" means "city" and stop...
we should add,that depends on its location in the sentence .... it could be "misrun" or "misren" as well...

eg;

إِزَارَيْنِ وَمَا مِنَّا أَحَدٌ أَيُّهَا السَّبْعَةُ الْيَوْمَ إِلا أَمِيرٌ عَلَى مِصْرٍ مِنَ الأَمْصَارِ

to sum up and get back to the point related to the topic , all the neighboring nations to Egypt used to call Egypt a name whatever variations had, still has to include a root "MSR" ......


Thank you for your descent, informative post ,I put you and sis Insaanah in the list of those well informed in written Arabic, I feel really proud of you both ...

I know there could be others with that level ,but I had no discussion yet with other members that proved me having your level...

Barak Allahu feeki
:sl:

[Scimitar]

The jury is still out for me, but I trust Brother Scimi's judgement and his concerns of truthfulness due to my positive interactions with him and respect for his views. If the book is false then the author either made an innocent mistake and made inaccurate conclusions based on his own limited understanding or he intentionally put forward misinformation (lies) for some ulterior, hidden agenda. I admit that the later may very well be the case, but then the question becomes, "Why would someone make those claims and what are they ultimately trying to achieve in doing so?" Regardless, I believe this is an extremely important topic and deserves to be discussed in a civil manner. If the Quran and hadith can be shown conclusively to place events on an actual map relative to known places, then that evidence will have primary importance. I am interested in hearing points and counterpoints as I am striving to learn.

JazakAllah khair for the kindness in your words akhi. I too am struggling to learn, and connect some rather elusive dots. But with no teacher to study under, and not even being a student of knowledge - all the info I find has been trusted to me by God almighty, He gave me my brain and heart with which to percieve this realtiy we find ourselves in. I find it very hard at times and am prone to sinking into minor bouts of depression, often mulling over ideas and possibilities in a saddened state - until something clicks and the chase starts all over again.

I guess you could call me reckless, simply because I do not use conventional methodology in my approach to these studies. Like I said, not even a student of knowledge - more like a moron who thinks he's onto something... But you know, I can't shake that "I could be onto something" feeling, so I have to just curb the conscience at times, and tell myself "I may be a moron, but then again... I may not be".

Allah knows best.

I think perhaps it might help the Jews call dibs on more areas in the middle east..
One thing I do wonder about is if the world map looked then as it does now.. Allah swt knows best..

Yup, the Judeo-Christian Zionist alliance to be quite frank - they're the ones calling the shots for both, the Christians and the Jews. As for maps, they are changing even as we speak...

...The world has changed a lot in the past 100 years. Go back further still and you'll be surprised at the powers that came and went thru the course of history. Kings fell to foreign powers, bloodlines became diluted, nations were destroyed, re-built and re-destroyed, the boundaries of new countries were set, again and again, names of countries changed, so did their customs and traditions, religions came and went and trade dictated the fashions and curiosities of the peoples... in short, dunya happened.

I think you might find this vid interesting (please mute the audio - its proper rubbish):



Scimi

[Muhaba]

:sl:



Exactly but I have 2 notes

1- some classic Arabic scholars(and some English translations) interpreted it as referring to (Egypt),you know why?

in spite of their acceptance of the the reading with the tanwin ,(other reading,less common without tanwin)...... they believe that tanwin could be added in that case and still the meaning (Egypt)

look at the classic tafsirs eg; I know you can read Arabic and (I'm sure you can translate"if you wish" the following in English better than me)


Tafsir Alqurtubi wrote:

. وقالت طائفة ممن صَرَفها أيضاً: أراد مِصْرَ فرعون بعينها. استدلّ الأوّلون بما ٱقتضاه ظاهر القرآن من أمرهم دخول القرية، وبما تظاهرت به الرواية أنهم سكنوا الشام بعد التِّيه. وٱستدلّ الآخرون بما في القرآن من أن الله أوْرث بني إسرائيل ديار آل فرعون وآثارهم، وأجازوا صرفها. قال الأخفش والكسائي: لخفّتها وشبهها بِهنْد ودَعْد؛ وأنشد:
لم تَتَلَفّعْ بفضل مِئزرها دَعْدٌ ولم تُسْقَ دَعْدُ في العُلَبِ


also Tafsir Alrazi
وفي مصحف عبد الله وقرأ به الأعمش: { ٱهْبِطُواْ مِصْرًا } بغير تنوين كقوله: { أَدْخِلُواْ مِصْرًا } واختلف المفسرون في قوله: { ٱهْبِطُواْ مِصْرًا } روي عن ابن مسعود وأبي بن كعب ترك التنوين، وقال الحسن: الألف في مصراً زيادة من الكاتب فحينئذ تكون معرفة فيجب أن تحمل على ما هو المختص بهذا الاسم وهو البلد الذي كان فيه فرعون وهو مروي عن أبي العالية والربيع، وأما الذين قرؤوا بالتنوين وهي القراءة المشهورة فقد اختلفوا، فمنهم من قال: المراد البلد الذي كان فيه فرعون ودخول التنوين فيه كدخوله في نوح ولوط، وقال آخرون: المراد الأمر بدخول أي بلد كان كأنه قيل لهم ادخلوا بلداً أي بلد كان لتجدوا فيه هذه الأشياء، وبالجملة فالمفسرون قد اختلفوا في أن المراد من مصر هو البلد الذي كانوا
فيه أولاً أو بلد آخر

In other words we can call Egypt "misran",with tanween, in that verse...

still I believe ,if we add the context factor, to the language factor, the meaning "City" is stronger.....


2- I should have added the English letters represented "tanwin" when I put the word "misran,City" in English....thank you for the note...

but away from the verse we can't say "misran" means "city" and stop...
we should add,that depends on its location in the sentence .... it could be "misrun" or "misren" as well...

eg;

إِزَارَيْنِ وَمَا مِنَّا أَحَدٌ أَيُّهَا السَّبْعَةُ الْيَوْمَ إِلا أَمِيرٌ عَلَى مِصْرٍ مِنَ الأَمْصَارِ

to sum up and get back to the point related to the topic , all the neighboring nations to Egypt used to call Egypt a name whatever variations had, still has to include a root "MSR" ......


Thank you for your descent, informative post ,I put you and sis Insaanah in the list of those well informed in written Arabic, I feel really proud of you both ...

I know there could be others with that level ,but I had no discussion yet with other members that proved me having your level...

Barak Allahu feeki
:sl:

thank you for the compliments.

I'm still trying to understand what this thread is about.

I got the following three questions:
Was Prophet Joseph (AS) in Misr (Egypt) or some other place?
Was Prophet Musa (AS) in Misr (Egypt) or some place else?
Were Prophet Joseph and Prophet Musa (alaihim assalaam) in the same place?

It is well-known from history that Prophet Musa (AS) was in egypt and not some place else. pharoahs are in egypt.
it is known from the Quran (Surah Momin) that Prophet Joseph and Prophet Musa (AS) were in the same place, since a man from the people of Pharoah said that before Musa (AS) Prophet Joseph had come to them.
thus, Prophet Joseph (AS) was in Egypt and not some other place. The misr in Surah Yusuf refers to Egypt and not some place else.

now the question of whether misran (with tanwin) means city or can it mean egypt? in arabic language proper nouns can also have tanwin such as the name Muhammad. in the Quran also you will see, for example, muhammadan, muhammadun, muhammadin (with tanwin). But arabic has rules regarding which proper nouns have tanwin and which can't have tanwin. I'll have to look them up in the book Sharh Ibn Aqeel. but i remember something about proper masculine nouns having tanwin.

as for the word misr, in the Quran when used as a proper noun, referring to Egypt, it doesn't have tanwin. (see surah Yusuf). but when referring to city, in Surah Al-Baqarah, it has tanwin. so i guess that shows that with tanwin means city and without tanwin means Egypt.

And Allah knows best.
Insha-Allah i'll try to get the rules for tanwin from the arabic book asap.

[MustafaMc]

I think you might find this vid interesting (please mute the audio - its proper rubbish):

Assalamu alaikum, Brother Scimi. It seems you and I have a lot in common. The video was quite amazing and the pertinence to the thread seems to be that the book has geo-political implications. It would be interesting to see how the map will change over the next few years. I expect that the fragmentation into many nation-states will coalesce as we approach the end of time and the expansion of the NWO into a One World Government. There may yet remain the illusion of nation-states, but for all practical purposes be One Nation uder masonic/zionist rule.

[Scimitar]

They'll get close. Very close... but their plan is not fool proof, whereas Allahs plan is better. And yes, seems we're often on the same page with our train of thought, masha-Allah. I really do enjoy bouncing ideas back and forth between us akhi :)

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

I think you might find this vid interesting (please mute the audio - its proper rubbish):

This is really cool! Do you know what program he was using to make it go? I'd like to keep a copy of this without the audio.

[Pygoscelis]

There may yet remain the illusion of nation-states, but for all practical purposes be One Nation uder masonic/zionist rule.

Or under corporate rule. I think nation states are becoming less and less relevant as corporations become more and more.

[Scimitar]

This is really cool! Do you know what program he was using to make it go? I'd like to keep a copy of this without the audio.

No, I don't akhi, but I have removed the annoying music and I just rendered it in 720p and stretched it to fit the screen in full. Here you go. (all you need now is youtube downloader and you can DL it. It's saved in .mp4 format so it's viewable on most devices) :)



interesting to note: look at Arabia from the year 1870 onwards: Look what country has power over it! Meh!!! Just like I said. Saud's have bowed to the Brits, and still bow to the Brits...

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

Good stuff! Thanks!

[MustafaMc]

Quoting, "If the relevant Biblical texts are read as they ought to be, in their original consonantal Hebrew, without regard to any misleading tradition about them, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that ancient Judah was anywhere other than where I have located it. The onomastic proof is so overwhelming that it seems hardly to warrant archaeological substantiation. Nevertheless, as I mentioned at the offset, the issue is unlikely to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction before archaeological evidence is produced to support my claim. In the meantime, it would seem quite in order to suggest that on the basis of what information I have adduced, Judah is, at least, far more likely to have been in West Arabia than in Palestine."

The book is based upon reinterpreting consonantal Hebrew texts in a manner that associates various passages of the OT with place names. The claim is that Hebrew became a dead language aound 5th century B.C. and that those who vocalised the consonantal text did so with major errors in meaning. He states in the introduction, "As my argument rests almost entirely upon assumption that the Hebrew Bible has been consistently mistranslated...Therefore, in order to understand the Hebrew Bible, we must either accept the traditional Jewish interpretation of its texts or seek guidance from closely related Semitic languages which are still alive... I reject the former course in favour of the latter, because the Jewish scholars who interpreted and vocalised the Hebrew Bible between the sixth and tenth century A.D. did not know Hebrew as a spoken language, and presumably based their reconstruction of it on informed guesswork."

If one can imagine an analogy 1) if the Quran was left without vowel and vocalization marks (as in the original compiled under Abu Bakr's leadership), 2) the Quran was not vocalized as part of the Islamic prayer, 3) the early Muslims were captured and exiled to a foreign land, 4) Arabic ceased to be spoken for 1,000 years, 5) Islam became revitalised, 6) the ancient consonantal Arabic was preserved mostly intact but with errors in understanding, 7) after many years of not being vocalised, the Quranic texts were marked only in modern times with vowel marks according to traditional interpretation. If this had happened, is there room for errors in meaning to creep in, particularly if there was a vested interest in doing so?

[Al-manar]

If the book is false then the author either made an innocent mistake and made inaccurate conclusions based on his own limited understanding or he intentionally put forward misinformation (lies) for some ulterior, hidden agenda..

the second is suggested by Dr feras, he suggests that the agenda of the author is to defend the bible narratives against the historical,archaeological evidence that challenge the biblical historical inaccurate information...

by shifting the geographical scene of the bible to west Arabia would ,get the bible out of the accusations of historical inaccuracy ......

If you note ,Saleebi's arguments all affirming that every historical single bit of information in the bible is true ,it is just the readers who misunderstood it !!!!


bro MustafaMc quoted the writer (hope he go ahead quoting more) :

Quoting, "The onomastic proof is so overwhelming that it seems hardly to warrant archaeological substantiation. Nevertheless, as I mentioned at the offset, the issue is unlikely to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction before archaeological evidence is produced to support my claim.

what if the historical,archaeological evidence refutes that claim?
the major problem with the writer's theory,is his dishonest skipping of the historical,archaeological besides Biblical,Quranic evidence that refutes his theory...


eg; he wrote

there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that ancient Judah was anywhere other than where I have located it(west Arabia).

there are at least a dozen of proofs supports that ancient Judah is where we knew it...

that proof is just a beginning:

to read Sennacherib's account of his military invasions of Phoenician and Palestinian coasts and cities.....

read the article and then let's add more to the argument

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sennach...ib.27s_account


peace

[Tyrion]

unctuous and ingratiating nature

I come here to escape from schoolwork for a bit and immediately find myself in need of a dictionary... Great. :p:

(please mute the audio - its proper rubbish)

I'd like to keep a copy of this without the audio.

Hey now, whats with all the hate for an orchestral version of "Layla"? :p



Also, just to make sure this post can't be called completely off topic and/or useless, I should say that I found this to be a fairly interesting discussion...

[جوري]

I come here to escape from schoolwork

How did your finals go?

[Tyrion]

How did your finals go?

Thankfully they went pretty well this year, although I had to start summer classes almost immediately afterwards so there wasn't much time for respite... :( Thanks for asking btw. :p:

[Muhaba]

so what i got from that book was that masculine proper nouns (names of people) such as Muhammad and Zaid have the tanwin at the end. i think other masculine proper nouns (city names) don't have tanwin. Likewise, nonarabic men's names also don't have tanwin at the end, like Ibrahim but am unsure about this. I believe i had read something about it but where in the book, i don't know.

[Al-manar]

so what i got from that book was that masculine proper nouns (names of people) such as Muhammad and Zaid have the tanwin at the end. i think other masculine proper nouns (city names) don't have tanwin. Likewise, nonarabic men's names also don't have tanwin at the end, like Ibrahim but am unsure about this. I believe i had read something about it but where in the book, i don't know.

peace

you can read the grammatical rule in the following quotation :

لمصر استعمالان في اللغة
الأول عام يرادف كلمة بلد كأن تقول (فتح المسلمون العالم مصرًا بعد مصر ٍ )
الثاني خاص يطلق على البلاد الواقعة شمال شرق إفريقيا كأن تقول (مات الشافعي في مصر َ )

أما الاستعمال الأول فإنه ينوّن إذ لا علة تمنعه من التنوين (الصرف)
وأما الثاني فأنت بالخيار فلك ألا تنونه أي تمنعه من الصرف للعلمية والتأنيث ،
لأن هذا الاسم صار علما على مكان معين وهو أيضا مؤنث إذ تقول مصر كبيرة لا كبير وجميلة لا جميل ، وهذا هو الغالب في أعلام الأمكنة ،
ولك أن تصرفه (تنوّنه ) لأن العلم المؤنث الثلاثي الساكن الوسط يجوز صرفه ومنعه مثل ( هنْد ، دعْد )
أما العلم الأعجمي الثلاثي الساكن الوسط فيجب صرفه ، أي تنوينه ، فلا يعامل معاملة الممنوع من الصرف للعجمة والعلمية ، بل يخرج عن قاعدة الممنوع من الصرف ، فنقول : جاء هودٌ / سلمت على لوط ٍ


so linguistically, the word (misran) in the verse under discussion ,even though has tanween,it possibly means (Egypt),that is why some English translations render the word as (Egypt)...

and Allah knows best ..