Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1”

[truthseeker63]

Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1”


By Defending-Islam.com Team

When confronted about the fact that their doctrine of Triune gods is in fact addition of different parts which will always give a result of three, many of the Christians respond by saying that it is not "1 + 1 +1 =3" but rather "1 X 1 X 1 = 1".

It is important to note that the Christian understands we are stating that he has claimed that God is divided into distinct parts, all of which have to be added in order to arrive at the whole. However, this Christian rebuttal is the height of sloppiness on their side. The Christian simply thought of some manner in which three number "1"’s could lead to a result of "1" and now presents it as "proof" of their doctrine. He did not think of what addition is in mathematics, nor what multiplication is in mathematics, nor what each of these operations means, nor why do they give the results they give.

As our response, we could mention that “1+ 1 - 1 = 1” and say that in this operation the number “1” also appears three times, so it should be a correct manner of describing the Trinity as per our opponent’s logic, with the obvious conclusion that one of the “persons” of the Trinity would be eliminated altogether. We could also say that “1 X 1 X 1 X 1 X 1 = 1”, so it is logically correct to imagine “God” in 5 persons. Or we could multiply 1 infinitely many times by itself and still get the number 1, so that would mean that the “God” who is supposed to be one can be infinitely many persons as per their logic. So the Christian logic in this case is not unique to “three persons in one Trinity”, but it can be easily expanded to include other operations other than multiplication, as well as use the number “1” as many times as one wishes and still attain the same result.

In any case, what our opponents fail to grasp is that multiplication is not even relevant in this case whatsoever, as multiplication is taking the multiplicand and scaling it by a factor determined by the multiplier. A subtle issue arises here which may not be noticed by many people: Even in this case, it is obviously known that both the multiplicand and the multiplier are indeed different entities, which combine to give some result. It just so happens that in the case of multiplication by one (the identity element), this second element gives a result which is the same as the multiplicand (the first element). But it does not change the fact that the multiplicand and the multiplier are separate and distinct elements, and that they are never treated as the same element when carrying out the multiplication- otherwise there is no operation to be carried out in the first place. This intrinsic fact inherent in all basic mathematical operations has to be kept in mind by al those who bring up this issue, so that they may realize that their example is invalid and has no merit.

So it is extremely obvious that when the Christian talks about three persons as one entity, then they are talking about composition and combination of parts to form a whole and they enter the realm of adding different parts so as to arrive at the whole. This is why it would be inappropriate for a Christian to say that “God” can exist without “The Father”, “The Son”, or “The Holy Ghost” all having existence as “persons” in the Trinity.
Now, if the Christian contends that these three are one in nature and essence (and that hence they are not parts at all), we respond by saying that the very fact that they can differentiate between these three persons and tell them apart means they are not one in nature and they are not one in essence. Otherwise the Christian could say that the Father is the same as the Son, or the Son is the same as the Father, or the Holy Ghost is the same as the Son, and so forth, a reasoning which is totally rejected in their religion.

To conclude, explaining Trinity by presenting the analogy of multiplying the number “1” by itself is utterly flawed and meaningless, as it exposes their brittle understanding of the matter at hand, as well as their denial that “three persons” will always carry with it the meaning of composition of parts into a whole.





What does everyone think of this article ? Do you agree with it because I do ? Can anyone explain it thank you ?

[~ Sabr ~]

:salamext:

If Christians claim 1x1x1=1 - in this case all the 1's have the same identity and properties - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not. Simple.

[glo]

I have used that formula myself, but only in response to the common argument that 1+1+1=3, not 1.

The bottom line is that God is greater than being contained in a mathematical formula. So either argument is quite silly, really ... :)
God cannot be explained my maths.

[Pygoscelis]

The bible story is coherent and perhaps even moral absent the trinity doctrine (which I haven't seen anywhere within the bible itself). Once you introduce the trinity the story becomes not only incoherent but also very imoral.

Without the trinity, you've basicaly got a Hercules like story, you have the son of God so loving humanity that he pleads with his father, God, to forgive them their sins and grant them salvation. He makes his case not by arguing their virtue or God's forgiving nature (which would have made an even nicer moral story) but by showing how much he loves them, so much that he will sacrifice himself for them. Seeing how much his son loves humanity, God then re-evaluates and grants them salvation. This is a coherent story and one often found in earlier mythologies (including some similarities with Hercules).

Now add the trinity and you've got God sacrificing himself to himself to enable himself to change his own mind and grant salvation. You've made God bloodthirsty, needing blood and suffering, rather than say good works, to convince him to grant Salvation. You've also got vicarious redemption, people being forgiven their wrongs by endorsing the pain and suffering of an innocent volunteer. But most notably, you've got an incoherent story, and I strongly suspect that this is because the trinity was not meant to be part of the story when it was first adopted by early Christians, and that it was added later.

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[Who Am I?]

I had a discussion with a Christian friend of mine related to this yesterday. He said something about Jesus being the only mediator between man and God. I asked him why we even needed a mediator, and why couldn't we speak directly to God? Even when I was a Christian, it never made sense to me that you pray to God, yet you invoke someone else's name in your prayer.

[Pygoscelis]

I agree. It makes no sense, does it? Why use a middle man? If God is all powerful and unlimited in the attention he can give etc, then why can't you go to him directly? Clearly if God wanted to, he could make such personal contact, and according to the doctrine, he has in the past. Why do we never hear people asking why he doesn't do it now? Instead we lock people who personally "hear the voice of God" in mental institutions.

I feel the same way about the bible. Its existence seems to be evidence against the central claims of its believers. They claim that (1) God is all powerful and (2) God wants to be known and obeyed by all. But if he was all powerful then he could very easily simply make us know that he is there and what he wants from us, but instead we have this old dusty book that he supposedly wrote or inspired to be written. Clearly he either isn't all powerful, or doesn't want to be perfectly known and understood by all. One of the above claims is refuted by the bible's very existence.

[glo]

I asked him why we even needed a mediator, and why couldn't we speak directly to God? Even when I was a Christian, it never made sense to me that you pray to God, yet you invoke someone else's name in your prayer.

But if you believe that Jesus is God, then by praying to Jesus you pray to God. Same thing!

The concept of Jesus being our mediator is based on two things:
Firstly our sense that he - having lived in human form himself - understands our human condition and suffering very well.
And secondly that the gospel of John reports Jesus to have said this: "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Personally speaking, I don't have a sense of needing Jesus as a mediator to pray to God. I pray to God, simple as that.

[Snowflake]

Top 10 Reasons Why The Trinity Is Invalid

[Muhaba]

so it's not a line but a box, is that what they are saying? because 1 * 1 * 1 = box with each side having a measurement of 1.

[Muhaba]

The bible story is coherent and perhaps even moral absent the trinity doctrine (which I haven't seen anywhere within the bible itself). Once you introduce the trinity the story becomes not only incoherent but also very imoral.

Without the trinity, you've basicaly got a Hercules like story, you have the son of God so loving humanity that he pleads with his father, God, to forgive them their sins and grant them salvation. He makes his case not by arguing their virtue or God's forgiving nature (which would have made an even nicer moral story) but by showing how much he loves them, so much that he will sacrifice himself for them. Seeing how much his son loves humanity, God then re-evaluates and grants them salvation. This is a coherent story and one often found in earlier mythologies (including some similarities with Hercules).

Now add the trinity and you've got God sacrificing himself to himself to enable himself to change his own mind and grant salvation. You've made God bloodthirsty, needing blood and suffering, rather than say good works, to convince him to grant Salvation. You've also got vicarious redemption, people being forgiven their wrongs by endorsing the pain and suffering of an innocent volunteer. But most notably, you've got an incoherent story, and I strongly suspect that this is because the trinity was not meant to be part of the story when it was first adopted by early Christians, and that it was added later.

Christians need the trinity doctrin to explain their belief because in the Old Testament and in all scriptures before the Bible, it was always written that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.

Then christians introduced the concept that God, JEsus, and the HOly SPirit share godhead. but then they had the problem because three gods does not equal to one God. so there was a contradiction between the christian belief and the belief taught by the old testament. Since christians believe in all the older scriptures and Prophets (including Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses God's peace and blessing be on them) they couldn't have a different belief from them. so they solved the problem by saying that the three are actually one. but that doesn't make sense since those are three separate beings.

in no way can Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit be one and the same being. even the bible shows that they are three separate beings. Christians will have to accept that they are not 1 but three. and their belief is not monotheistic but polytheistic. when they have accepted this fact they will be able to deal with it.

until then, they are in denial and it's nothing but that.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you truthseeker63;

Christian claim that Trinity is like saying “1 X 1 X 1 = 1”

The Bible describes a husband and wife as being ‘One’ yet we know they are two different people, often very opposite. So how does a husband and wife become one?

Genesis; 2.24
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united with his wife, and they become one.

In the spirit of searching for the oneness of God

Eric

[Muhaba]

Brother Eric, you are intelligent enough to know that a husband and wife are two separate individuals. they are two beings. if you liken God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost to them, then you admit that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. if you claim that they share godhead, then you have three gods and not one, which amounts to polytheism. in that case, you need to explain why in all the preceding scriptures did God say He was one and now you say that according to the bible they are three.

it cannot be explained with the husband and wife example. those are two separate beings but one family.

either you have one God and only One God. Jesus and the Holy Ghost not being Gods. or you have three gods. there is no way that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost (three separate beings) can amount to being one God.

[Abz2000]

it can't be 1x1x1 because one prays to another and even prostrates on his forehead to Him.

if it's 1x1x1, then he's praying to himself

if it's 1/3+1/3+1/3 , then it means that it's incomplete when one "dies",

and if they're all the same and co-equal and co-eternal,
then one can't be the father and the other the son.
because the son can't be co-eternal with the father since the father has to exist first - since the "son" is "only begotten",
so it can't be 1x1x1.

secondly, the verses they use are: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

but then we have this:
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:20-23

that would make everyone "god" if you go by the logic of assuming the first verse to be affirming partnership in godhood, more like a hindu doctrine than a monotheistic one.

here's Jesus creating a CLEAR distinction between himself and God:
17And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
19You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’”
Mark 10:17-19

is he saying "hey worship me" or is he saying "that isn't me, it's someone else who is not me".???

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you WRITER;

Brother Eric, you are intelligent enough to know that a husband and wife are two separate individuals. they are two beings.

likewise the Bible describes Jesus as being ‘One’ with the Father.

John 10.30
The Father and I are one."

The same kind of language used to describe a husband and wife.

In the spirit of searching for the oneness of God

Eric

[Muhaba]

^so you admit that Jesus and God are not one being, just as a husband and wife are not one being.

now you have to decide what you believe. Do Jesus and God share godhead or not?

if you believe they don't then you believe that there is One God and that Jesus is not God. so he was human and a Prophet only.

If you believe that they do share godhead, they you believe there are more than one God, which is polytheism.

[Abz2000]

likewise the Bible describes Jesus as being ‘One’ with the Father.

John 10.30
The Father and I are one."

so does John 17:20-23

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

also mean that you are a claimant to Godhood too brother eric?
that would make about 7 billion "gods" on planet earth alone including hitler and stalin and obama, along with my nephews and nieces?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you WRITER;

so you admit that Jesus and God are not one being, just as a husband and wife are not one being.

A husband and wife are two people, but the Bible describes them as ‘One’ so how can this be? They could be one family, but this has no great meaning if one of them is a serial killer or adulterer. There has to be some kind of perfection to make the two people as ‘one’

In the spirit of searching for the 'Oneness of God'

Eric

[Abz2000]

A husband and wife are two people, but the Bible describes them as ‘One’ so how can this be? They could be one family, but this has no great meaning if one of them is a serial killer or adulterer. There has to be some kind of perfection to make the two people as ‘one’

brother eric, when we say, "we are all unanimous on this issue", or "i am one with my people", it means something, it indicates agreement.
but how one can take it to mean that they are one and the same thing or being is beyond reason.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you brother Abz2000;

brother eric,

I find it a great blessing and privilege for me a Christian to be called ‘brother’ by a Muslim, in an ideal world we should be as one with our brothers. Just some thoughts; how can a Christian wife and a Muslim husband be as one when they disagree with much of their faith? It seems that love must break down these barriers, the husband loves his wife as he loves himself, the wife loves her husband as she loves herself, and they can then become as ‘one’

when we say, "we are all unanimous on this issue", or "i am one with my people", it means something, it indicates agreement.

I guess it is easier for two Muslims to be as one with each other in agreement, and the same for two Christians to be as one in agreement. But believing the same is not enough to make people as ‘one’ there is the need to love them as you love yourself, we should put God first, our neighbour second and ourselves third.

but how one can take it to mean that they are one and the same thing or being is beyond reason.

I believe the ‘oneness of God is to do with the greatest relationship they can have with each other, and I believe this hangs on the greatest commandments.

Jesus loves God the Father as he loves himself, and he loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.
God the Father loves God the Son as he loves himself, and he loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

In the spirit of searching for the oneness of God

Eric

[Abz2000]

I find it a great blessing and privilege for me a Christian to be called ‘brother’ by a Muslim, in an ideal world we should be as one with our brothers.

Well, if ur a son of Adam, it makes u naturally a brother in humanity :)
Though the bond of faith for Muslims is a stronger one, I think God Himself chose that super strong mortar.
Maybe I wouldn't say that to someone who believes their ancestors were monkeys or apes, but that's another issue, they're "one" in that they're mammals :D

What you described as the oneness in love and agreement or purpose sounds good, but it still doesn't explain how that makes Jesus God or God Jesus, because that comment can apply to any one of us:

I believe the ‘oneness of God is to do with the greatest relationship they can have with each other, and I believe this hangs on the greatest commandments.

Jesus loves God the Father as he loves himself, and he loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.
God the Father loves God the Son as he loves himself, and he loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

But it still doesn't make us God.
And the verse used to justify the trinity has a similar verse which applies to all humanity.
So it still leaves us back at square one in terms of the idea of a trinity which was resolved on at Nicea despite the strong opposition to such an interpretation.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you brother Abz2000; son of Adam;

What you described as the oneness in love and agreement or purpose sounds good,

It is probably as much as we could both have some sense of agreement on

but it still doesn't explain how that makes Jesus God or God Jesus,

This is where we have two separate understandings of 'one' Jesus, which we may never agree on, and this is where it is said doctrine and beliefs separate people; but love unites.

But it still doesn't make us God And the verse used to justify the trinity has a similar verse which applies to all humanity.

We pray to God our Father, and this makes us sons of God.

So it still leaves us back at square one in terms of the idea of a trinity which was resolved on at Nicea despite the strong opposition to such an interpretation.

All that I can think of saying now is that we can still be one in purpose, love, and friendship, despite our differences; and its past my bedtime.

Every blessing to you and your family.

Eric

[MustafaMc]

Just some thoughts; how can a Christian wife and a Muslim husband be as one when they disagree with much of their faith? It seems that love must break down these barriers, the husband loves his wife as he loves himself, the wife loves her husband as she loves herself, and they can then become as ‘one’

Eric, peace be upon you as one who is forever searching for God and all that is good.

This is an interesting point. Regardless of the love between a Christian wife and a Muslim husband, if they are honest with themselves, then they acknowledge that there is a monumental distance between their hearts. A Christian believes that 'no one comes to the Father except through the Son' (couldn't find the verse) and the Muslim believes that 'the only religion acceptable by Allah is Islam' (Quran 3:85). Do they REALLY believe they will be together in Heaven? I believe that deep down these two realize that the most fundamental element of their being (belief about the unseen) is at odds with the other. How can a Muslim man feel as 'one' with a wife who does not pray and fast with him? To me this is an illustration of separation - not oneness - in their relationship.

Even in the most perfect marriage there is always the possibility that the 'one' will become two again through divorce. In reality they always were two because we know that they were never irreversibly fused and because 1 is not a divisable number. You can never split an apple and have two apples.

There are only two numbers that are equal at the same time to their square root and their product and that is zero and one. We know that since God exists, He can't be 'zero'. We both believe that God is 'One'. The only difference is in our respective concepts of what the One God is.

The Muslim concept of the One God is represented by Surah Al-Ikhlas Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begets not nor was begotten and there is none comparable unto Him. and by the shahadah 'La ilaha ila Allah' 'There is no god but Allah'. There is elegance in simplicity.

The Christian concept of the One God is a mystery comprised of three coexistent, coeternal and coequal Persons with the most emphasised being the Father and the Son (Jesus). However, the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father - the Son sits at the right hand of the Father and he submits his own will to Him as in the Garden of Gethsemane. The most obvious illustration to me of the distinction of the three persons as not equal to One God is in the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:16-17 After being baptized, Jesus (1=Son) came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (2=Holy Spirit) descending as a dove and lighting on him (1=Son), and behold, a voice out of the heavens (3=Father) said, “ This is My beloved Son (1=Son), in whom I (3=Father) am well-pleased.” These three obviously were distinct and not an illustration of Divine Unity. There is confusion in compexity.

The critical point is, "Is Jesus God?" Which is answered in the Quran 5:116-117 And when Allah said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? He said: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then You knew it. You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your Mind. Lo! You, only You, are the Knower of Things Hidden. I spake unto them only that which You commanded me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when You took me You were the Watcher over them. You are Witness over all things.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you brother Abz2000;

Well, if ur a son of Adam, it makes u naturally a brother in humanity :)

If we look to the immediate sons of Adam in the Bible, we find out that one of them, Kane, killed his brother Abel, so hopefully there is a greater meaning to brotherly love.

In the spirit of praying for a meaningful unity.

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc my friend;

There are only two numbers that are equal at the same time to their square root and their product and that is zero and one. We know that since God exists, He can't be 'zero'. We both believe that God is 'One'. The only difference is in our respective concepts of what the One God is.

I am not sure that Jesus was giving us a new teaching about mathematics when he talked about the Father, Son and Spirit being 'one'; there has to be some deeper meaning, and I believe it is to do with their relationships, purpose and unity. I am not sure there is any perfect analogy about man that can describe God, however there are many imperfect analogies, and here is one.

A Muslim husband and wife are married for life, they put Allah first, their partner second and themselves third, if they agreed on things, did things together and gave Allah the glory for all the good that happened, then they could be regarded as ‘one’ despite there being two separate people.

In theory all Catholics should be as ‘one’ with all other Christians, but that loving unity is lacking.

The critical point is, "Is Jesus God?"

Sadly we have to agree to disagree, but how can we be as one, despite all our differences?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith tolerance and friendship.

Eric

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc my friend;

And the same to you, Eric H, I consider you as my friend as well :statisfie

I am not sure that Jesus was giving us a new teaching about mathematics when he talked about the Father, Son and Spirit being 'one'; there has to be some deeper meaning, and I believe it is to do with their relationships, purpose and unity. I am not sure there is any perfect analogy about man that can describe God, however there are many imperfect analogies, and here is one.

Yes, you are right that human analogies are woefully inadequate to convey understandings of our respective concepts of the One God.

Since becoming a Muslim, the concept of Trinity has become increasingly confusing to me and it conflicts with my present understanding of the One God. I imagine that my frustration comes across as hostile, but it is not meant to be a personal attack. Perhaps you as a Christian can point out the deficiencies (from your perspective) in the Islamic concept of the One God that are fulfilled uniquely by Christian understanding of the Trinity. Central to this approach would be showing in what way Jesus was 'God Incarnate'. As a former Christian, I remember acceptance of Jesus as the 'Son of God' and literally 'God on Earth' and that he died on the cross for my sins as being essential to salvation from the Hellfire. I know you as a kind and loving person and I can imagine that you want salvation for me as I do for you. Perhaps you hold back on sharing what you believe is the Truth because you don't want to be seen as promoting a religion other than Islam on an Islamic forum.

A Muslim husband and wife are married for life, they put Allah first, their partner second and themselves third, if they agreed on things, did things together and gave Allah the glory for all the good that happened, then they could be regarded as ‘one’ despite there being two separate people.

On this point I agree.

Sadly we have to agree to disagree, but how can we be as one, despite all our differences?

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith tolerance and friendship.

Eric

I am reminded of this ayat Quran 5:82 "...And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians..." and I see you and glo as falling into this category.

[BadOlPuttyTat]

:bump:
:bump::bump:

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc my friend;

Since becoming a Muslim, the concept of Trinity has become increasingly confusing to me and it conflicts with my present understanding of the One God.

There are passages in both Islam and Christianity that says God chooses us, if God has chosen you through Islam, it is not for me to fight against God by trying to influence your beliefs. It stands to reason that Christian beliefs will sound wrong to you, if God has chosen your path through Islam. I sincerely believe this to be the truth,

I imagine that my frustration comes across as hostile, but it is not meant to be a personal attack.

I have never found anything that you have said to be hostile, and if we were neighbours then I would be happy to call on you as a friend.

Perhaps you as a Christian can point out the deficiencies (from your perspective) in the Islamic concept of the One God that are fulfilled uniquely by Christian understanding of the Trinity.

Again I would say that God has placed Islam in your life as a way of guiding you, who am I to fight against God by trying to change your beliefs. I would also say that God has placed me firmly within the Catholic Church, to influence change within my life,

Central to this approach would be showing in what way Jesus was 'God Incarnate'. As a former Christian, I remember acceptance of Jesus as the 'Son of God' and literally 'God on Earth' and that he died on the cross for my sins as being essential to salvation from the Hellfire.

agreed

I know you as a kind and loving person and I can imagine that you want salvation for me as I do for you.

Agreed, and I have to accept that you will live the rest of your life as a devout Muslim.

Perhaps you hold back on sharing what you believe is the Truth because you don't want to be seen as promoting a religion other than Islam on an Islamic forum.

I try and promote the religion of interfaith patience, tolerance and friendship.

I am reminded of this ayat Quran 5:82 "...And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians..." and I see you and glo as falling into this category.

Thank you, and you are very kind.

Every blessing to you and your family

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you FreakOffALeash;

I watched the first video through, and found myself becoming cross, and this is something that goes against my nature. It reminded me of political broadcasts, I feel that over 90 percent of the broadcast is dedicated to rubbishing the opposition, and very little is dedicated to saying what the party stands for.

Some years ago the Churches Together Group that I attended had the opportunity to invite a speaker to talk about Islam, the speaker had been a Muslim, but had turned away from Islam and became a Christian. I stood up and objected saying, that if I was to learn about Islam; it should be from a practicing Muslim, and not from someone who had turned away from Islam.

In the same way, when I listened to the video link you posted, it was from an atheist who had studied Christianity and turned to Islam. At the end of his message he tried to promote a book he had written, and it seemed like a money making exercise.

I strongly disagree with his views and could argue against most things he said, but this is an Islamic Forum and I am a guest, and arguing achieves very little apart from an argument.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Kyle]

I mean, if you want the Trinity to work, you can compare it to the likes of a three-leaf clover. Three leaves, one clover. What I fail to understand though is how Jesus can be God, Son of Man, and Son of God at the same time! I ask you to review historical transcripts of the Bible... the "Son of God" is seldom mentioned in the Gospels, and were later added. It was really Paul who developed the idea of Jesus as the Son of God. Read your Gospels yourself, without doing the research, and you will quickly see that the term "Son of God" is seldom mentioned. To me, the Trinity is complicated and never really made sense to me. I mean, it did, but not complete sense, certainly not common sense. But, to each their own.

#Ex-Christian

[MustafaMc]

There are passages in both Islam and Christianity that says God chooses us, if God has chosen you through Islam, it is not for me to fight against God by trying to influence your beliefs.

Thank you for your kind response, Eric H. I understand that you believe that God guides some people to Christianity and some to Islam and some to other religions and that each way is equally valid as a True faith and way to live one's life. I believe that white is white and white is not black as an analogy for our respective conflicting beliefs about God. I believe this is a matter of supreme importance. I struggle with the concept of Jesus being God Incarnate even though I once believed it myself which is in and of itself hard for me to comprehend now. I am left with the conclusion that I was either misled when I was a Christian or I am misled now as a Muslim.

[BadOlPuttyTat]

Greetings and peace be with you FreakOffALeash;

I watched the first video through, and found myself becoming cross, and this is something that goes against my nature. It reminded me of political broadcasts, I feel that over 90 percent of the broadcast is dedicated to rubbishing the opposition, and very little is dedicated to saying what the party stands for.

Some years ago the Churches Together Group that I attended had the opportunity to invite a speaker to talk about Islam, the speaker had been a Muslim, but had turned away from Islam and became a Christian. I stood up and objected saying, that if I was to learn about Islam; it should be from a practicing Muslim, and not from someone who had turned away from Islam.

In the same way, when I listened to the video link you posted, it was from an atheist who had studied Christianity and turned to Islam. At the end of his message he tried to promote a book he had written, and it seemed like a money making exercise.

I strongly disagree with his views and could argue against most things he said, but this is an Islamic Forum and I am a guest, and arguing achieves very little apart from an argument.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

I am no Muslim dude :p .
I have heard this mans debates but issue is he rambles on like James Lipton (but not as creepy) and doesnt back up his words. But a little researching and his words can be backed up. Being an Atheist and joining Islam yet studying Christianity makes him a bit more credible for me unless I got it backwards. But his teachings are right on the spot for me honestly and he adds good weight to the debate.
But anyways I am a heathen who left Christianity and Islam and the best way to describe me is a Pagan Sanatana Dharmist. So dont think I am a Muslim or anything although I have a fixation on Islam :statisfie

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Kyle; welcome to the forum, and I hope you enjoy your stay.

I mean, if you want the Trinity to work, you can compare it to the likes of a three-leaf clover. Three leaves, one clover.

A man can be a son, husband and father, water can also be steam and ice, but I think all these three in one analogies miss the point.

John 10.30
The Father and I are one."

Jesus very clearly knows he is not the Father, yet he says the Father and I are one, and I believe the oneness of God refers to purpose, relationship, truth, love and unity. The opposite to being as one is disunity, in theory Christianity should be as ‘one’ because there is One God, one Jesus and the one church that Jesus founded. But we know that Christianity is divided into thousands of denominations, so we are not as one with each other.

To me, the Trinity is complicated and never really made sense to me.

It does not make sense to me when we say that God has no beginning, but I just have to accept it as true, and I have spent countless sleepless nights trying to fathom out infinity. When things do not make sense to me, there seems to be two options, there is an absence of truth in the statement; or the statement is true; but I do not understand.

In the spirit of praying to one God,

Eric

[glo]

It does not make sense to me when we say that God has no beginning, but I just have to accept it as true, and I have spent countless sleepless nights trying to fathom out infinity. When things do not make sense to me, there seems to be two options, there is an absence of truth in the statement; or the statement is true; but I do not understand.

I like that, Eric.

There is much about God which we cannot fathom. One day we will see clearly and understand fully. :)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc; we seem to be walking a very strange path together.

Thank you for your kind response, Eric H. I understand that you believe that God guides some people to Christianity and some to Islam and some to other religions and that each way is equally valid as a True faith and way to live one's life. I believe that white is white and white is not black as an analogy for our respective conflicting beliefs about God.

I think God had quite an uphill battle creating mankind, we know best and we disobey God and we do things our way, and I include myself in this bunch of rebellious people. If God could give us just one religion, and we all adhered to it, then I believe this is what God would have done. But look at the mess we make of each religion, we divide it up into separate groups, and at times we are in conflict with each other.

Why would the same God who gave me a deep and meaningful faith and trust in him through Christianity, also give you this same faith and trust in him through Islam, it does not make sense. In fact it seems to make even less sense to me than the ‘Trinity.’ Yet I look at your faith, and the faith of many Muslims on this forum, and I have to accept that your faith has come from the same God.

Holy scriptures seem to make sense when they inspire me to change my ways and put God first in all that I do. Scriptures seem to be less effective when I use my scriptures to try and influence you to change your ways, God has chosen you through Islam.

How can Muslims and Christians become as one? We can’t believe the same, but I do believe that we can live in peace, strive for justice, help each other, share things together and pray for each other.

I am left with the conclusion that I was either misled when I was a Christian or I am misled now as a Muslim.

Or maybe your faith journey is more complete and you have benefited from both journeys in ways that you do not understand as yet. God works in mysterious ways, the only thing you can do is strive to do your best now, where he has placed you now.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you FreakOffALeash;

I am no Muslim dude :p .

You could say, I am not a Muslim at this moment in time.

So dont think I am a Muslim or anything although I have a fixation on Islam :statisfie

Thats a starting point, you just have to do something.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

[BadOlPuttyTat]

Greetings and peace be with you FreakOffALeash;


You could say, I am not a Muslim at this moment in time.



Thats a starting point, you just have to do something.

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

I was a Muslim for little over 2 weeks actually although I had read my fair share of Islam plenty before that. I just had doubts with Abrahamic faiths as a whole and just switched to something that matched my personal intellect and was actually credible. So i became a Sanatana Dharmist(Hindu/Sikh/Buddhist/Jain).

Regarding the trinity I will say this. If you go through your bible and sorry for not quoting verses but it is 1 Am and I am to lazy.
Jesus only claimed divinity by stating God the Son God the father and god the holy spirit but issue is this part is easily confirmed as corrupted and without it Jesus claims no divinity.
Another issue that when god says "let us make man in our image" is that God has no image, he has no face and he is not human nor are angels. Angels are told to have 3 heads 10 wings and be giants along with many other creepy and often disturbing images from the Nephilim and onwards. Angels have been said to appear in human image but by all means are not human originally. Angel means messenger (not messenger like FedEx) but soldier, to be "messenged" which is a context that doesnt exist in modern english. So obviously we are not made to look like Angels as we are not creatures designed for war or Godly duties. And the original name that was used to describe god was Elohim which is plural. All names such as Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah all have native(pagan) origins because there is no other words to describe god but int he native language used before hand. Imagine god coming to Muhammad and saying "I am Zakami(japanese for The God)". Muhammad wouldnt know who that was because he obviously didnt speak Japanese so god had to tell Muhammad is name in his native tongue which was "Allah al-Ibrahim". The Issue is when the term Elohim was used it was pagan. Meaning somewhat wrote down the pagan usage of "gods" which was an pre christian pantheon referencing to a plurality of gods.
The reason Jews and Muslims say the Bible is either false or corrupted is because they know the original and literal translations while westerners dont. So Jews and Muslim more often know the bible better then most Christians.

I personally believe Jesus is the son of god but remember God does not have sons so in literal sense it would be that Jesus like all things are the creations of god. I believe nt he Holy spirit and Jesus but ai donot believe God is 3 things in one, jesus and holy spirit are SEPARATE entities beside god. Jesus is clearly quoted saying that god works through him and that he and the HOlY Spirit are INDIVIDUAL beings. So they cannot be one because that would contradict everything. God cannot be one in 3 things if each of the three have minds of their own.
All trains have numerous cabs but each cab doesnt have a engine(mind) of its own but if they did then each cab would be a separate train.
So if you do or dont believe int he trinity then your contradicting something one side of the Bible yet believing in the other. Trinity is only a western concept and is not common in eastern Christianity as it mimics the Sanatana Dharma and the usage of avatars. So either way the Bible is obviously corrupted as it uses a lot of native language that contradicts itself.

Sorry if my writing is poor but I drank some "fine spirits" and am very tired :hmm: . Please forgive me If I am just rambling :embarrass

[MustafaMc]

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc; we seem to be walking a very strange path together.

Peaceful greetings to you, my friend, Eric H. Your perspective is more inclusive and less divisive than mine. I have a problem in understanding how God can reveal to Paul the Christian plan of salvation that centers upon Jesus being the only begotten Son of God and yet God incarnate and reveal to Muhammad (pbuh) that Jesus (as) was not Allah or the Son of Allah. I remember the passage in the Quran when upon being cast out, Iblees promised to lead astray much of humanity. From my perspective either Saul on the Damascus road or Muhammad in the cave was misled by an imposter spirit. This makes more sense to me than God providing conflicting revelations to mankind that are equally valid.

I have walked both paths and of course I believe the Islamic one is the Straight Way. I am the only Muslim in my entire family and I often go weeks at a time (when I miss Jumu'ah) without even seeing another Muslim. I feel like I am surrounded by people being led astray in the manner of the 'Pied Piper of Hamlin' and feel a responsibility to try to get the children to not follow him away.

I think God had quite an uphill battle creating mankind, we know best and we disobey God and we do things our way, and I include myself in this bunch of rebellious people. If God could give us just one religion, and we all adhered to it, then I believe this is what God would have done. But look at the mess we make of each religion, we divide it up into separate groups, and at times we are in conflict with each other.

I believe that God could have created one religion and kept all others from becoming established, but I see this as part of the test in this life with regards to the choices we make. I have yet to come to grips with how God chooses some to be guided and others are left astray. I presume that I was chosen (hence my name Mustafa) to see the truth of Islam and to be led out of the darkness of ascribing partners with God, but in a strange sense I have deep feelings of 'survivor guilt' like the sole survivor of a platoon that gets wiped out in battle. I ask myself, "What did I ever do to deserve being shown the truth, while all of my family is yet astray?" Perhaps this is a sign of lack of understanding on my part, but I see that you and others are equally sincere in your faith as I am in mine and it bothers me that we have conflicting beliefs. I feel that one of us must be right and the other must be wrong. In the end though I know that I have enough concerns for my own salvation, but I would prefer to have others see what I do. I am reminded of several passages in the Quran where I understood that Muhammad (pbuh) had this same desire for guidance for others around him who were astray.

Why would the same God who gave me a deep and meaningful faith and trust in him through Christianity, also give you this same faith and trust in him through Islam, it does not make sense. In fact it seems to make even less sense to me than the ‘Trinity.’ Yet I look at your faith, and the faith of many Muslims on this forum, and I have to accept that your faith has come from the same God.

I do believe there is truth in this statement that nothing happens except that it is the will of God for it to do so. There is much good in the Christian faith particularly with regards to loving God first and foremost and then loving our fellow brothers and sisters in humanity next. Each of us will be judged first and foremost for what is in our heart and I know that there is more darkness in my own heart that precludes me from judging what is in someone else's heart.

Holy scriptures seem to make sense when they inspire me to change my ways and put God first in all that I do. Scriptures seem to be less effective when I use my scriptures to try and influence you to change your ways, God has chosen you through Islam.

Guidance comes only from God, but I feel we have a responsibility to share our understandings of truth with others who don't see that truth.

How can Muslims and Christians become as one? We can’t believe the same, but I do believe that we can live in peace, strive for justice, help each other, share things together and pray for each other.

I agree with you 100% and I have appreciated my interactions with you. Mutual respect for the other's right to choose his own religion and tolerance for differences is a very good thing in my opinion.

Or maybe your faith journey is more complete and you have benefited from both journeys in ways that you do not understand as yet. God works in mysterious ways, the only thing you can do is strive to do your best now, where he has placed you now.

I rather doubt that my faith journey is more complete becasue if it was my heart would not be as troubled by matters such as we have discussed. I struggle with my questions and my imperfections, but I agree you and I should continue to strive to do and be the best that we can realizing our human limitations.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

In the spirit of mutual respect and praying for guidance to true faith,

Mustafa

[Al-Mufarridun]

:sl:

Out of our immense love for them both, we testify that Jesus, son of Mary, and his mother, are but honored servants of Allah, The One, The Absolute!

And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, "There is no deity except Me, so worship Me." And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, they are [but] honored servants. (The Prophets v. 25-26)

[MustafaMc]

Eric, I watched this video and thought of you.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you as always MustafaMc;

I ask myself, "What did I ever do to deserve being shown the truth, while all of my family is yet astray?"

If God were to judge me fairly and justly, then I would not achieve salvation for the things I have done in my life.
If I ever achieve salvation, it will not be through my own efforts, rather it will be because God is not only just, but is forgiving and merciful. If God can forgive me, then I pray that he can forgive all people. Even if I killed someone, God could then raise that person to a better and eternal life, God can put right all my wrong doings.
I have family and friends of many religions and no religion, I pray that they might all have eternal salvation, even if they do not become a Catholic as I am, and somehow this helps me find an inner peace.

In the spirit of praying for mercy and forgiveness for all people

Eric

[glo]

Eric, I watched this video and thought of you.

Somebody posted this in the Christian Muslim Forum and I liked it.

[MustafaMc]

If God were to judge me fairly and justly, then I would not achieve salvation for the things I have done in my life.
If I ever achieve salvation, it will not be through my own efforts, rather it will be because God is not only just, but is forgiving and merciful.

Peaceful greetings. All except one of the surahs of the Quran begin with Bismi'Allah irRahmani irRaheem, In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful (Saheeh International). The mercy of God is orders of magnitude greater than any mercy we know as humans. If I remember correctly a person was forgiven and granted entrance into Paradise by giving water to a dog, but the flip side is another was sent to Hell for starving a cat. Like you said, if I achieve salvation it will not be because I earned it through any effort of my own, but rather by the grace and mercy of my Lord.

If God can forgive me, then I pray that he can forgive all people. Even if I killed someone, God could then raise that person to a better and eternal life, God can put right all my wrong doings.

This reminds me of Prophet Moses who had killed an Egyptian for mistreating a man. There is hope for redemption from any crime. I am also reminded of the hadith about an adulterer came to Prophet Muhammad (saaws) admitting her sin that resulted in her being stoned to death. In Islam, punishment in this life for a crime or sin is a cleansing act and we have the concept of offsetting a sin with a good deed. However, ultimately God is our judge and He alone knows the intentions in our hearts.

I have family and friends of many religions and no religion, I pray that they might all have eternal salvation, even if they do not become a Catholic as I am, and somehow this helps me find an inner peace. In the spirit of praying for mercy and forgiveness for all people

I understand and appreciate this hope, but it is not consistent with my faith. I pray for guidance to the truth for those who are not Muslims. Ultimately, God is the Master of Judgement Day and I believe there will be those who enter Paradise that we would have judged as going to Hell and vice versa as well. I believe we are best to not judge one another, but at the same time I do believe we have a responsibility to share what we believe to be the truth with others who believe differently.

[glo]

Ultimately, God is the Master of Judgement Day and I believe there will be those who enter Paradise that we would have judged as going to Hell and vice versa as well. I believe we are best to not judge one another, but at the same time I do believe we have a responsibility to share what we believe to be the truth with others who believe differently.

Amen to that.

I have enjoyed our discussion about God and our beliefs over the years, Mustafa. May we both be the richer, more knowledgeable and understanding of each other for it.
And pray that we meet again in paradise.

[MustafaMc]

I have enjoyed our discussion about God and our beliefs over the years, Mustafa. May we both be the richer, more knowledgeable and understanding of each other for it.

And I have enjoyed our discussions as well. I have learned both from what you, Eric H and Grace Seeker have written and, odd as it may seem, from my composing of responses to you. I am presently listening to a lecture series, 'The Atributes of God in Islam' by Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and Dr. Umar Abd-Allah http://sandala.org/store/cds/the-att...-god-in-islam/ These two scholars are doing an excellent job with the task at hand and I highly recommend these lectures for anyone who wants to learn more about the Islamic understanding of the One God.

And pray that we meet again in paradise.

I hope in the mercy of my Lord to forgive me and others who He has graciously allowed to be a part of my life. A dear sister on this forum has held out hope to me for mercy to be shown to my parents and others in my family who have passed without the Islamic faith. To soothe my heart I place my trust in God and hope His mercy will be extended to others as well. I am remided of Jesus' response in the Quran 5:118 "If You do punish them, they are Your servant: If You do forgive them, You are the Exalted in power, the Wise."

[Kyle]

Greetings and peace be with you Kyle; welcome to the forum, and I hope you enjoy your stay.



A man can be a son, husband and father, water can also be steam and ice, but I think all these three in one analogies miss the point.

John 10.30
The Father and I are one."

Jesus very clearly knows he is not the Father, yet he says the Father and I are one, and I believe the oneness of God refers to purpose, relationship, truth, love and unity. The opposite to being as one is disunity, in theory Christianity should be as ‘one’ because there is One God, one Jesus and the one church that Jesus founded. But we know that Christianity is divided into thousands of denominations, so we are not as one with each other.



It does not make sense to me when we say that God has no beginning, but I just have to accept it as true, and I have spent countless sleepless nights trying to fathom out infinity. When things do not make sense to me, there seems to be two options, there is an absence of truth in the statement; or the statement is true; but I do not understand.

In the spirit of praying to one God,

Eric

Eric,
I understand that the Trinity is complex, and as a Catholic we would call it the "Mystery of Faith." To me, if one believes in the Trinity they probably don't understand it fully, but they understand an essence of it. They just believe in one God who has manifested himself in flesh, and the Holy Spirit (which Muslims believe in too, the Ruh)

They ask thee concerning the Spirit.
Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord:
Of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you."
If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration:
Then wouldst thou find none to plead thy affair in that matter against Us.

surah17: 85-86 Al Isra' (The Night Journey)
Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, 1989.)

Verily it is We who give life and death;
And to Us is the Final Goal.

surah 50:43 Qaf
(Abdullah Yusuf Ali, The Holy Qur'an, Amana Corporation, 1989.)

The Qur'an uses two terms "Ruh-Allah" and "Ar-Ruh-Al-Qudus" for the Spirit of God. Such is the case in the following references: "We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs [of Allah's sovereignty], and we supported him with the Holy Spirit [ar-Ruh-al Qudus]," (Surah 2, Al-Baqarah, The Cow: 87)."When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit [al-Ruh al-Qudus], so that the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel . . . and thou didst heal him who was born blind and the leper by My permission; and how thou didst raise the dead, by My permission" (Surah 5 Al-Ma'idah, The Table Spread: 110).
"Go, O my sons, and ascertain concerning Joseph and his brother, and despair not the Spirit of Allah [Ruh-Allah]" (Surah 12, Joseph: 87).

from al-qiyamah org
I really never argue/debate/discuss the Trinity, because it is a complex issue. But, if you accept it as a "mystery" in essence, or perhaps you believe in it but don't fully understand it; this is not problematic, because no one can understand perfection. Therefore, I have no problem with you believing in the Trinity, but as Muslims, we don't embrace such ideas, and see them as idolatry. To be frank, I don't understand the Trinity really well, but it is no longer relevant to me as a Muslim. I believe in One God, who does not have a Son, nor manifested himself in the flesh, etc.

But I do ask that you look at historical Biblical manuscripts of the Gospels and see how many times the word "Son of God" is used in comparison to "Son of Man." Also, if you review the older manuscripts, it becomes clear that the "Son of God" was not really prevalent in the Gospels and were a later addition.