Summa vs. Thumma

[جوري]

Does anyone know the difference?
There was a story of a lady during the times of the prophet (PBUH) who couldn't make the 'tha' sound very well as a result used to confuse between thabit aqdaam almoslmeen vs sabit aqdaam.. again do you know the difference and why this lady (whose name I forget) was given a different du3a to make. It is very important that we distinguish the difference as it isn't mere pronunciation difference.. they give completely different meaning, opposing in fact..
I'll give two rep points to the one who brings correct plus the name of that lady..

:w:

[Muhaba]

I read that the Prophet (SAW) knew many dialects of arabic and would teach each tribe the Quran in their own dialect. There was a tribe that didn't pronounce the last س sound so they were taught the Quran in the way they pronounced the words. When reciting Surah al-Nas for example, they would say "Qul A'oozo bi rabbinaa" instead of "nas."

This is just like the difference of englsih dialects. british don't pronounce r in some words and americans don't pronounce t in some words. it doesn't affect the meaning of teh words and noone tells either that either is wrong.

Likewise, Islam makes it easy on those of different dialects / accents. non-arabs can't pronounce some letters right no matter what they do. even americans can't pronounce خ . they say k . it's true that one should try to learn the correct pronunciation, but if one can't then that doesn't mean that they should stop reciting the Quran or praying or reading duas. There is a hadith that the one who is learning the Quran (and makes mistakes) gets two rewards.

so islam doesn't at all discourage people from learning or praying or reciting. if a person can in no way change their accent or pronunciation, then they should read it the way they do and Allah is most forgiving.

[Imaduddin]

The correct word out of the two is Thumma. One reason I can think of why it is written as Summa is because of the Turkish people. They do not have many of the Arabic letters and unfortunately instead of trying to learn them, they just changed them with something else. For example They can say the letter "TH" so they say "S" and the Ayn to O as in Uthman bin Affan to Osman bin Affan. They also don't have the first letter of the word 'Dhalimoon' so they say 'Zalimoon'.

There are some differences in qirat and dialects, however it is only a word or two within an Ayah to give it a deeper meaning, as a result a letter may change and thus the Ayah keeps it's original meaning accept that it gets a deeper meaning, for example, there may be the word 'eternal hell' and the word 'eternal in this case may be changed to 'severe' and makes the sentence into 'severe hell' or something like that.

I hope that is helpful insha Allah.

[جوري]

It is one thing when one says things out of simply not knowing the meaning and another when they know & persist also in this case people are writing so no pronunciation is involved so it makes it all the more paramount to get it correct.
Regarding your other comment on reciting with different dialects:

what you've written above isn't merely a dialect though it is a paraphrase of the verses all together, which isn't how anyone recites the Quran whether an Arab or otherwise

and Allah swt knows best..
I am still waiting for an answer to the Q posed in shaa Allah

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[جوري]

The correct word out of the two is Thumma.

very true.. do you know the difference in meaning though with thumma vs. summa?
I just found the phenomenon rampant on the forum and wanted to discuss it openly.. not to put anyone on the spot but so we can all learn something in sha Allah..
also like thabit and tabit or sabit both have really bad meaning...

[Abz2000]

her name was umm ayman (barakah), she was the carer of abd al muttalib, abdullah, and the messenger of Allah pbuh, and mother of the 18 year old general (usama bin zayd) who the prophet pbuh sent out to the roman front
to step over the land where his father had fallen.

[جوري]

well done ma shaa Allah...
it is wonderful to learn something new or refresh what one once learned and forgotten since..

[Insaanah]

:sl:

her name was umm ayman (barakah), she was the carer of abd al muttalib, abdullah, and the messenger of Allah pbuh, and mother of the 18 year old general (usama bin zayd) who the prophet pbuh sent out to the roman front
to step over the land where his father had fallen.

Jazaakallah khayr for sharing that video. It doesn't make any mention though of the incident about not being able to pronounce tha properly. Is there a hadeeth or narration about it?

[جوري]

I am looking for it now myself but it is her.
Also no one wants to take a stab at the difference? all that is required is the dictionary :p

[Abz2000]

Jazaakallah khayr for sharing that video. It doesn't make any mention though of the incident about not being able to pronounce tha properly. Is there a hadeeth or narration about it?

here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Nm2...ilpage#t=1119s

or play this vid, and go directly to 19mins 27 seconds:


sabbath meant sabbath as in saturday according to bro anwar, though he doesn't always have to be correct in his interpretation as he is human like us, though........an amazing human being :)

[جوري]

she was with the prophet in ghazwit uhud supplicating but she was originally Ethiopian so her pronunciation was off..
Still looking in shaa Allah..

[جوري]

here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Nm2...ilpage#t=1119s

or play this vid, and go directly to 19mins 27 seconds:


sabbath meant sabbath as in saturday according to bro anwar, though he doesn't always have to be correct in his interpretation as he is human like us, though........an amazing human being :)

you beat me to this Jazaka Allah khyran.. I'll post the meanings of the words if no one comes forward with a try...

:w:

[Insaanah]

:sl:

Also no one wants to take a stab at the difference? all that is required is the dictionary

If its with a saad, it'd be to be deaf? Like summun bukmun umyun? That's just a guess, though it's with a fat'hah in the dictionary. If it's with a seen, poison?

[جوري]

:sl:



If its with a saad, it'd be to be deaf? Like summun bukmun umyun? That's just a guess, though it's with a fat'hah in the dictionary. If it's with a seen, poison?

with a س respected sis..
ok if no one will take a stab at it.. summa means poison ..
and tabit over thabit means to cut off their feet as opposed to making them steadfast..

Jazakoum Allah khyran for the participation and br. ABZ for the video of umm Ayman

[Insaanah]

ok if no one will take a stab at it.. summa means poison ..

That was my last sentence :p

JazaakiAllah khayr dear sister for educating us on this important difference, and Br Abz for the video.

[جوري]

That was my last sentence :p

JazaakiAllah khayr dear sister for educating us on this important difference, and Br Abz for the video.

rofl I am blindddddddddddd.. jazaki Allah khyran..
so in shaa Allah we don't poison our ameen or cut off the feet those whom we pray that Allah swt would make steadfast...

Do you remember also the people who used to say As'saam 3lykoum instead of as'salaam 3lykoum..
I know I sound like a freaking stick in the mud but it is paramount if we use Arabic to do it correctly as one syllable can render the whole sentence (no matter how well wishing we're) completely moot...

[جوري]

just wanted to add yes sabit means sabbath (Saturday) rendering the word meaningless but also tabit means cut off such as in suret al masad in reference to abu Lahab 'tabat yada' which is horrible so quite possible she fluctuated between the two since I learned the story when in KSA I learned both I believe Anwar only stuck with one.. and I had definitely forgotten her name so high Kudos for finding this because I couldn't find it on google.. Google only has anti-Islamic rhetoric to trap the meek in our midst.. was taking me quite the long time to find her and you have granted me a great service...

Barakoum Allah feekoum.. I enjoyed this and thank you for participating may Allah swt reward you all..

[Insaanah]

Wa iyyaaki, ameen.

so in shaa Allah we don't poison our ameen or cut off the feet those whom we pray that Allah swt would make steadfast...

Inshaa'Allah, we'll do our best to avoid that.

I enjoyed this and thank you for participating

So did I, found that very beneficial, and so I look forward to more...

[Muhaba]

It is one thing when one says things out of simply not knowing the meaning and another when they know & persist also in this case people are writing so no pronunciation is involved so it makes it all the more paramount to get it correct.
Regarding your other comment on reciting with different dialects:

what you've written above isn't merely a dialect though it is a paraphrase of the verses all together, which isn't how anyone recites the Quran whether an Arab or otherwise

and Allah swt knows best..
I am still waiting for an answer to the Q posed in shaa Allah

i'm unsure if the people who didn't pronounce the last س were from Yemen or where. you might want to research this. i wish i remembered the tribe or whereever they came from. in anycase, in syria i actually saw some people who didn't pronounce the letter n in ramadan. they said ramadaa instead.

And Allah knows best.

yes, so if one can, then they should try to improve the pronunciation. but there are people who just can't. it's impossible for them. i'm unsure if they'll need speech therapy or what, lol. such people shouldn't be discouraged.

there are also words that sound alike but have different meanings, for example tail and tale. and from the sentence you know what the meaning is. so i don't think such a big deal should be made out of it.

[جوري]

yes, so if one can, then they should try to improve the pronunciation. but there are people who just can't. it's impossible for them. i'm unsure if they'll need speech therapy or what, lol. such people shouldn't be discouraged.

No one should be discouraged I agree..
just breaks my heart to receive great du3a and have it poisoned at the end :p
Regarding the Quran however people are united on the queryshi dialect and indeed some people pronounce things differently but with the recitations they should indeed make an effort. People of Egypt never say the g sound as it is in gem they always pronounce the g the way it is in good.. so can you imagine saying aooth billah min ashytaan arageem instead or arajeem? also they never pronounce the qaaf they make a hamza or alif sound instead so you can imagine what this does with some of the names and attributes of Allah swt.. it is no longer a matter of unable to because they have a speech pathology problem rather it is the dialect of the region and can easily be overcome when reciting.. As we have seen some words one syllable difference can render an entirely different meaning all together.

[Muhaba]

^i really wasn't talking about the Arabs who have gone so far away from real Arabic, it's a shame. I've heard egyptians talking and its so difficult to understand them. always saying things like masgid and guma, lol. i wonder how they pronounce egypt. but Arabs don't have problem with letters like ع and ق and ظ and ط and ث and even خ so i think they have no excuse. surely with a little practice egyptians can say ج instead of (the letter which doesn't exist in arabic). and the same goes for other Arabs.

But the ajam (non-Arabs) are the ones who have difficulty in changing their pronunciation, especially of the above letters. i highly respect those parents who send their children to arabic teachers from an early age to learn the correct pronunciation. everyone should try their best to improve especially recitation of Quran, which includes both correct pronunciation of letters and tajweed. however, where it's impossible for one to fix pronunciation of a letter, one shouldn't be discouraged as Allah knows our abilities and weaknesses.

[جوري]

. i wonder how they pronounce egypt

:haha: they call it masr..
and if you're in Egypt in any other place other than cairo, say Port said or Alexandria etc. then when people say masr (misr) it is always in reference to Cairo.. as if no Egypt exists outside of there..:p

[جوري]

Couple more thing I noticed of late... well one I was told about that some guy was giving a lecture and said 'Allah 3atheem as'shan.. if you remove the hamzah ء from this you're actually mocking God astghfor Allah so make sure you spread the word to pronounce Arabic correctly otherwise you'll do completely the opposite of what you're setting out to do. It is شأن not شان!
Another one is when you say 'rabbi zidni ilman' if you don't pronounce it with the ع then you'll be asking for Allah to increase your pain rather than your knowledge!
It is paramount in shaa Allah to pronounce Arabic correctly especially when we're in a position where people are listening to our lectures or khutbas..

:w:

[Insaanah]

:sl:

well one I was told about that some guy was giving a lecture and said 'Allah 3atheem as'shan.. if you remove the hamzah ء from this you're actually mocking God astghfor Allah so make sure you spread the word to pronounce Arabic correctly otherwise you'll do completely the opposite of what you're setting out to do. It is شأن not شان!

Just looked up شان shaan in Arabic and discovered it means disgrace, dishonour. (Didn't know that before)
In Urdu, شان shaan means, glory, grandeur, splendeur, eminance.

Was the lecture in English or Arabic? If it was in Arabic, then saying it like that was clearly wrong. If it was in English, and the speaker was from India/Pakistan, then he would be referring to the Urdu phrase 3atheem ash-shaan عظيم الشان (without hamza) which means, of high station or dignity, magnificent, and would be used as a phrase praising Allah.

But subhaanallah how they mean complete opposties in the two languages.

JazaakiAllah khayr for sharing that.

[~Zaria~]

Couple more thing I noticed of late... well one I was told about that some guy was giving a lecture and said 'Allah 3atheem as'shan.. if you remove the hamzah ء from this you're actually mocking God astghfor Allah so make sure you spread the word to pronounce Arabic correctly otherwise you'll do completely the opposite of what you're setting out to do. It is شأن not شان!
Another one is when you say 'rabbi zidni ilman' if you don't pronounce it with the ع then you'll be asking for Allah to increase your pain rather than your knowledge!
It is paramount in shaa Allah to pronounce Arabic correctly especially when we're in a position where people are listening to our lectures or khutbas..

:w:

MashaAllah, such a beneficial thread!

Just want to share a story:

My mum is a recent revert, Alhamdulillah.
She attended Adult Islamic Courses for almost a year, and as I was not staying with her, I didnt make quite an effort to oversee this.
Ive recently realised that she was asked to by-heart the surahs - from the transliteration of the relevant arabic text - by herself!

Needless to say, Surah Fathihah (and all else) - did not sound very much as it is intended to sound! :/

Even though I can read arabic (fairly fluently, though with very little understanding - Insha Allah, something we all should be working on), I was worried about teaching tajweed - and perhaps passing down my own mistakes.....so I decided to invest in a 'Tajweed Quraan Pen':

It is a really worth-while investment, esp. for non-arabic speakers, who are trying to perfect their pronounciation - and can also assist when by-hearting ayats from the Quraan.
One of the great features is that you can chose your favourite reciter (I love Sh. Mishary al-Afasy : ) )......


So, thats my story.....(Moral: chose your teachers well! : ) )

JazakAllah khayrun for this thread, and bro Abz......looking forward to watching the rest of that series now, insha Allah.

:wa:

[جوري]

:sl:



Just looked up شان shaan in Arabic and discovered it means disgrace, dishonour. (Didn't know that before)
In Urdu, شان shaan means, glory, grandeur, splendeur, eminance.

Was the lecture in English or Arabic? If it was in Arabic, then saying it like that was clearly wrong. If it was in English, and the speaker was from India/Pakistan, then he would be referring to the Urdu phrase 3atheem ash-shaan عظيم الشان (without hamza) which means, of high station or dignity, magnificent, and would be used as a phrase praising Allah.

But subhaanallah how they mean complete opposties in the two languages.

JazaakiAllah khayr for sharing that.

The sad thing is the person who was told to correct his pronunciation wouldn't and he was giving a khutba to a large crowd on Friday- my brother told him (in private) ya akhi please you're mocking Allah, desist and pronounce it correctly and instead of taking it in good spirits he persisted and in Ramadan- does that make sense?.. It is really very sad when we feel we're grand mufti and can't even take a piece of advise said in good heart by our brothers and sisters.. astghfor Allah..

Jazaki Allah khyran for clarifying this for me as well.

[Insaanah]

:sl:

It's a common mistake by some non-Arabs to pronounce ط the same as ت , as it's pronounced the same in their own language, and they don't know that it's any different in Arabic.

E.g. there's qaaniteen قانطين , those who despair,
and qaaniteen قانتين , those who are devoutly obedient

In this ayah,

They said, "We have given you good tidings in truth, so do not be of the despairing." (15:55)

pronouncing the ط as a ت will result in the following wrong meaning:

They said, "We have given you good tidings in truth, so do not be of the obedient."

[جوري]

Allah yikhleeki illi ya ukhty wa Jazaki kul khyer.. al7mdullilah.. I think this is really an important thread for those who know to pass along the wisdom of what they've learned in shaa Allah

[Tyrion]

I just found the phenomenon rampant on the forum and wanted to discuss it openly.. not to put anyone on the spot but so we can all learn something in sha Allah..
also like thabit and tabit or sabit both have really bad meaning...

I think the reason you find people typing an "s" instead of an "th" in forums like this is just because we get a lot of non Arabs. Languages like farsi (and maybe urdu? ) give ث an "s" sound, since "th" doesn't exist in those languages. Unless someone from those countries has been trained to read with proper Arabic pronunciation, they will say it as they would in their mother tongue out of habit.

well one I was told about that some guy was giving a lecture and said 'Allah 3atheem as'shan.. if you remove the hamzah ء from this you're actually mocking God astghfor Allah so make sure you spread the word to pronounce Arabic correctly otherwise you'll do completely the opposite of what you're setting out to do. It is شأن not شان!

Pretty sure this is the same issue in cases with some non Arabs. Many languages don't have a glottal stop, so it's difficult for them to say hamzah. hey resort to reading it as they would in their mother tongue (if the alphabet is the same).

[جوري]

Indeed in such a case the khutbah should be given in the mother tongue or if insistent on Arabic then every effort should be undertaken to ensure proper pronunciation in shaa Allah.

[Insaanah]

:sl:
Another common mispronounciation by some non-Arabs, is to pronounce the letter 'ayn ع as a hamza ء.

This can also give rise to wrong meanings.

Ashyaa'akum أشياءكم means "your things".
Ashyaa3akum أشياعكم means, in the ayah below, "your likes" or some have translated it as "your sects".

In this ayah:

And indeed, We have destroyed your likes, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)? (54:51)

Pronouncing the 3ayn as a hamza will result in the following wrong meaning:

And indeed, We have destroyed your things, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

[_Y168]

Very true^ May Allaah guide us all. Aameen.

[Insaanah]

do you know the difference in meaning though with thumma vs. summa?

summa means poison ..

so in shaa Allah we don't poison our ameen

And, as if to illustrate, see the red arrow in this picture by sister منوة الخيال below, from another thread:

Photo from: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1538910

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو أُسَامَةَ، عَنْ هَاشِمِ بْنِ هَاشِمٍ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ عَامِرَ بْنَ سَعْدِ بْنِ أَبِي وَقَّاصٍ، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ سَعْدًا، يَقُولُ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ مَنْ تَصَبَّحَ بِسَبْعِ تَمَرَاتٍ عَجْوَةً لَمْ يَضُرَّهُ ذَلِكَ الْيَوْمَ سُمٌّ وَلاَ سِحْرٌ ‏"‏

Amir b. Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
He who ate seven 'ajwa' dates in the morning, poison and magic will not harm him on that day.

Sahih Muslim (English) reference: Book 23, Hadith 5081, Arabic reference: Book 37, Hadith 5460

Source: http://www.sunnah.com/urn/250810

As a side note, some people also pronounce seen and saad the same (apart from pronouncing tha as seen as per thread title). So

صُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ

Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path]. (2:18)

gets read as

سُمٌّ بُكْمٌ عُمْيٌ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ

meaning:

Poison, dumb and blind - so they will not return [to the right path].

There's a thread on seen and saad here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/13...fferently.html