Does Islam Make Sense to You?

[Ali_008]

:sl:

I don't know how to keep this short, but I had this argument with a fellow Muslim today which turned weird from a peaceful talk about Islam. I, literally, had an argument, and I regret every bit of it.

Well, the gist of it is it actually started with a difference of opinion about Islamic attire. I was putting forward the claim that there are six parameters mentioned in the hadith, and those being:

1. The clothes shouldn't resemble the opposite sex.
2. The clothes shouldn't be transparent enough to see through.
3. The clothes shouldn't be so tight that they reveal the physique of the person wearing it.
4. It shouldn't contain any symbols or ideologies of non-Muslim faiths.
5. The extent of the clothes covering the body; for men, from navel to knees; and for women, the entire body except the face and hands upto the wrist. Some scholars propose that even the face should also be covered.
6. It should not be so flashy that it attracts the opposite sex.

According to him, imitating the Prophet (PBUH) is more important than any criteria whatsoever. I was saying we have no clear evidence what they used to wear during his time, and that clothes are more a matter of region than religion, and as long as they are in accordance with the above mentioned 6 factors then they shouldn't be a problem. That was one disagreement.

Then I said I believe so because I've heard Zakir Naik himself say that. He said he doesn't like Zakir Naik, and his preaching in "western" attire, and him wasting time with non-Muslims. He said he didn't need to waste time with learning the other religions, he should have focused more on Muslims etc etc. I said his attire, his knowledge of other religions is all because he wants to connect with his "western" audience because he preaches in English, and also let his listeners know that he knows their religion and chooses Islam over them all because of such and such reasons. He uses logic in dawah and that is why so many people respect him.

Then he said that he doesn't believe in all this "logic" stuff, because all you need is Allah to bring them to Islam. It all went silly after that and I said to him that I embraced Islam practically in 2007 because Islam made sense to me (I'm a born Muslim, but started practicing only in 2007). He said you're self contradicting because faith doesn't need to make sense to you for you to believe in it; you just believe in it. I said to him that applies to non-Muslims, not to Muslims because the specialty of Islam is that it is a totally logical faith. There is hardly anything in it that is just a random commandment. Rather, every aspect of Islam has a lot of wisdom behind it.

It became uselessly vehement after that. Alhamdulillah, both of us remained within our limits but we could sense each other's anger. imsad

I know his stance is valid that all you need is Allah. I can't say that he is wrong, but the fallout of this argument left me thinking if everyone thinks that they are Muslims because it "appeals" to them, or are they just Muslims with blind faith in Allah and His Messenger (PBUH)? I understand that being Muslim you need to have utter faith in both Allah and His Rasool :saws1:, but is that the only reason for your devotion. In other words, are you a Muslim because it makes sense to you or you're just Muslim with little to no regard for logic and reasoning?

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

It's a mix of both :) you believe islam because it was convincing to you, but once you're convinced its true - you believe in it whole-heartedly (about things which you can't fully understand.)

[Muezzin]

Islam makes sense to me. I might suck at explaining it, but that would be my failing.

I can understand where your friend is coming from. He might fundamentally equate questioning with doubting, which is a fallacy, but an easy mistake to make when questioners might have ulterior motives. Maybe he's had a bad experience in the past. The best thing is to agree to disagree, because both of you are actually right.

[Ramadan90]

I am sorry, but this muslim have no clue what he is talking about. I personally agree with you and I agree with him on some points(that we only need Allah etc) I would advise you to be careful about arguing. Agree to disagree instead.

And to answer your question: Yes, it makes very sense to me.

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[dqsunday]

We are also to use our reason. If we all wore exactly what the Prophet (sallahalaihiwasalam) wore, most of my Brothers in Islam would freeze to death. So would myself and my sisters. Thin cotton or wool garments worn in Arabia just can't keep you warm enough when you live in a country where it drops below freezing half the year. Faith is very good and we definitely need to keep it strong but reason and logic are also required for us to be good servants to Allah.

What drew me to Islam are several factors, mostly the very basic 'lesson'. There is only one God and that is Allah. There are others but most support just how true the simple concept of being only one true God who is all knowing, all powerful, creating of heaven and earth etc. It makes far more sense for him to just say 'be' and the blessed Mary bore a child without being touched by a man.

[Hulk]

Like what one of the homies above said, its a mix. Think of it this way, a child has TOTAL trust in his mother even though he doesn't understand every single thing she tells him to do. He trusts her nontheless because this is the person who has been taking care of him all these while. Also I hope you guys make up.

[KnockKnock]

Growing up, I always believed in Allah but never did anything about it. I thought I had some special favor like "God will forgive me it's ok". Later I just spent more time trying to get closer to Allah and I tried tokeep myself away from the bad things around me so any questions I had were pretty much debunked by The Qur'an. I pretty much had no choice to Submit to Him. Islam makes sense to me and I do agree with brother Qatada how you can't understand EVERYTHING because we are only humans and our knowledge is very limited.

[ardianto]

Assalamu'alaikum

There are two daleel (theorem) that used in 'produce' fiqh (Islamic thought).

First is daleel naqli. Daleel that based on Nash (text), like texts in qur'an, texts in hadith.
Second is daleel aqli. Daleel that based on Aql (mind/reason).

Majority of ulama agree, that Muslims should use nash first, then aql, if necessary. Muslims should notice the texts first, then think.

Unfortunately, there's a bad habit among some Muslims that happen since long time ago, use aql first to create innovation, then seek the nash that can be used to support their innovation. The product of this method is what we call bid'ah.

And this raised a reaction that happened since long time ago too. There were/are people who made conclusion that innovation caused by aql. So, Muslims should not use aql, nash is enough.

Your friend stand with people who reject aql. I notice it from his statement that he doesn't believe in all "logic" stuff. People like him are exist in my country too, they made many statement that define that thinking is haram.

But I found those people actually have fallen into "aql first, nash second" too. In example, when they hear a matter, the are thinking "it's must be haram", then they seek nash that can be used to support their thought.

Okay, does Islam make sense to me?. Alhamdulillah.

Islam would make sense to us if we follow Islam totally (kaffah), including understand the spiritual meaning of Islam, not only memorize texts without understand the meaning in those texts. And we will understand the spiritual meaning of Islam only if we learn Islam from real teachers, not from shaykh Google.

[Ali_008]

I know that it is a mix of both, but you can't expect things to happen on their own just because you believe in Allah. Remember the hadeeth in which Rasoolullah (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) asked a sahabi to tie his camel first and then believe in Allah. In that narration, a sahabi had left his camel loose, and was asked by Rasoolullah (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) that why doesn't he protect the animal? The sahabi had replied that "he believes in Allah."

Even Rasoolullah (SallAllahuAlayhiWaSallam) was able to bring about a revolution in the Arab lands, because he stepped out of his house and literally went from person to person inviting them to Islam. If he had just "faith in Allah" and decided not to do anything on his own, would Islam have flourished as good as it has?

[M.I.A.]

id like to say that any reward in faith/islam is through deeds.

id like to add its also through character and heart but that is my opinion.


the truth is that we do not have certainty of action until the day of judgement. once you understand that point it makes it a lot easier to learn, forgive and find some real sense of humility.


i agree with your point of view on islamic attire, the quran mentions people of the book specifically and you would agree they do not all dress the same.

as for his view on emulating the prophet pbuh, i would guess that we are all poor imitations.

the worst thing would be if people considered you worthy to follow, blind faith? but on what.

the way you dress
the way you talk
the way you walk
the knowledge you possess

or how your actions affected the people around you... all of the above.

the world today would easily say there is only one god.. easily.

what they brought to the people or what they took from them is the proof of belief and in particular if it bears any resemblance to islam.

i do agree that only allah swt can turn a person towards guidance, but none will be perfect will they.

['Abd-al Latif]

:sl:

I don't know how to keep this short, but I had this argument with a fellow Muslim today which turned weird from a peaceful talk about Islam. I, literally, had an argument, and I regret every bit of it.

Well, the gist of it is it actually started with a difference of opinion about Islamic attire. I was puttings forward the claim that there are six parameters mentioned in the hadith, and those being:

1. The clothes shouldn't resemble the opposite sex.
2. The clothes shouldn't be transparent enough to see through.
3. The clothes shouldn't be so tight that they reveal the physique of the person wearing it.
4. It shouldn't contain any symbols or ideologies of non-Muslim faiths.
5. The extent of the clothes covering the body; for men, from navel to knees; and for women, the entire body except the face and hands upto the wrist. Some scholars propose that even the face should also be covered.
6. It should not be so flashy that it attracts the opposite sex.

According to him, imitating the Prophet (PBUH) is more important than any criteria whatsoever. I was saying we have no clear evidence what they used to wear during his time, and that clothes are more a matter of region than religion, and as long as they are in accordance with the above mentioned 6 factors then they shouldn't be a problem. That was one disagreement.

Then I said I believe so because I've heard Zakir Naik himself say that. He said he doesn't like Zakir Naik, and his preaching in "western" attire, and him wasting time with non-Muslims. He said he didn't need to waste time with learning the other religions, he should have focused more on Muslims etc etc. I said his attire, his knowledge of other religions is all because he wants to connect with his "western" audience because he preaches in English, and also let his listeners know that he knows their religion and chooses Islam over them all because of such and such reasons. He uses logic in dawah and that is why so many people respect him.

Then he said that he doesn't believe in all this "logic" stuff, because all you need is Allah to bring them to Islam. It all went silly after that and I said to him that I embraced Islam practically in 2007 because Islam made sense to me (I'm a born Muslim, but started practicing only in 2007). He said you're self contradicting because faith doesn't need to make sense to you for you to believe in it; you just believe in it. I said to him that applies to non-Muslims, not to Muslims because the specialty of Islam is that it is a totally logical faith. There is hardly anything in it that is just a random commandment. Rather, every aspect of Islam has a lot of wisdom behind it.

It became uselessly vehement after that. Alhamdulillah, both of us remained within our limits but we could sense each other's anger. imsad

I know his stance is valid that all you need is Allah. I can't say that he is wrong, but the fallout of this argument left me thinking if everyone thinks that they are Muslims because it "appeals" to them, or are they just Muslims with blind faith in Allah and His Messenger (PBUH)? I understand that being Muslim you need to have utter faith in both Allah and His Rasool :saws1:, but is that the only reason for your devotion. In other words, are you a Muslim because it makes sense to you or you're just Muslim with little to no regard for logic and reasoning?

I'm sorry but his argument is flawed. How in the world are you supposed to have faith if it doesnt make sense to you? Is one supposed to follow something that makes no sense whatsoever?

Islam intends to make sense to one-and-all and this is proven in many ayat Allah where appeals to the "men of understanding". Furthermore, the Messenger of Allah :saws1: said that when Allah wishes good for someone he makes him understand the religion. In addition to this, in Quran Ibraheem (as) asked Allah to make his heart understand by showing him one of His miracles, and Allah responded to Him. Allah told ibrahim to kill a bird, chop it to pieces and then put it on a hill top. Then after walking away from it, Ibrahim (as) saw the very same bird come back to life and fly past him.

Nevertheless we still cannot say that all of Islam is logic. This is because when we wipe our feet with socks on for wudu, we wipe the top part of the sock and not the bottom. If the religion was based purely on logic then we would wipe the bottom of our socks.

My advice to you is to avoid argumentation as much as you can. This is not only the advice of the Messenger but also because argumentation drains ones iman. Argumentation is the way foolish people, not the wise.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Nevertheless we still cannot say that all of Islam is logic. This is because when we wipe our feet with socks on for wudu, we wipe the top part of the sock and not the bottom. If the religion was based purely on logic then we would wipe the bottom of our socks.

:sl:

just to clarify it is logical not to wipe the bottom of the sock when doing Wudu. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said regarding this: “Someone may say that it is the bottom of the slipper or sock that should be wiped, because this is what is in contact with dust and dirt. But if we think about it we will see that wiping the top of the sock is what makes sense, because this wiping is not for the purpose of cleaning, rather it is an act of worship; if we were to wipe the bottom of the sock that would make it more dirty.” And Allaah knows best.*

See al-Sharh al-Mumti’ by Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 1, p. 213.

Source: http://islamqa.info/en/cat/2035

['Abd-al Latif]

:sl:

just to clarify it is logical not to wipe the bottom of the sock when doing Wudu. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said regarding this: “Someone may say that it is the bottom of the slipper or sock that should be wiped, because this is what is in contact with dust and dirt. But if we think about it we will see that wiping the top of the sock is what makes sense, because this wiping is not for the purpose of cleaning, rather it is an act of worship; if we were to wipe the bottom of the sock that would make it more dirty.” And Allaah knows best.*

See al-Sharh al-Mumti’ by Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, vol. 1, p. 213.

Source: http://islamqa.info/en/cat/2035

This quote in essence is still in agreement with what I said. Wiping the top of the sock is what is legislated. If it was left to our intelligence, we would wipe the bottom seeing as this is where the dirt is collected.

But religion is not based in pure logic and we wipe the top part because this is how our purification becomes complete.

[Hamza Asadullah]

This quote in essence is still in agreement with what I said. Wiping the top of the sock is what is legislated. If it was left to our intelligence, we would wipe the bottom seeing as this is where the dirt is collected.

But religion is not based in pure logic and we wipe the top part because this is how our purification becomes complete.

:sl:

The example you gave is not valid as it is completely logical not to wipe underneath the sock due to the fact that the wetness underneath the sock will catch more dirt and it will also breed bacteria especially when the shoe is worn, causing the foot to smell and making it uncomfortable to wear a wet sock in a shoe.

Therefore as Shaykh Uthaymeen mentioned that the fact that one wipes the top of the foot is not for the purpose of "cleaning" the foot but as an act of worship, signifying the fulfillment of the act of masah.

And Allah knows best in all matters

[Hamza Asadullah]

:sl:

I don't know how to keep this short, but I had this argument with a fellow Muslim today which turned weird from a peaceful talk about Islam. I, literally, had an argument, and I regret every bit of it.

Well, the gist of it is it actually started with a difference of opinion about Islamic attire. I was putting forward the claim that there are six parameters mentioned in the hadith, and those being:

1. The clothes shouldn't resemble the opposite sex.
2. The clothes shouldn't be transparent enough to see through.
3. The clothes shouldn't be so tight that they reveal the physique of the person wearing it.
4. It shouldn't contain any symbols or ideologies of non-Muslim faiths.
5. The extent of the clothes covering the body; for men, from navel to knees; and for women, the entire body except the face and hands upto the wrist. Some scholars propose that even the face should also be covered.
6. It should not be so flashy that it attracts the opposite sex.

According to him, imitating the Prophet (PBUH) is more important than any criteria whatsoever. I was saying we have no clear evidence what they used to wear during his time, and that clothes are more a matter of region than religion, and as long as they are in accordance with the above mentioned 6 factors then they shouldn't be a problem. That was one disagreement.

Then I said I believe so because I've heard Zakir Naik himself say that. He said he doesn't like Zakir Naik, and his preaching in "western" attire, and him wasting time with non-Muslims. He said he didn't need to waste time with learning the other religions, he should have focused more on Muslims etc etc. I said his attire, his knowledge of other religions is all because he wants to connect with his "western" audience because he preaches in English, and also let his listeners know that he knows their religion and chooses Islam over them all because of such and such reasons. He uses logic in dawah and that is why so many people respect him.

Then he said that he doesn't believe in all this "logic" stuff, because all you need is Allah to bring them to Islam. It all went silly after that and I said to him that I embraced Islam practically in 2007 because Islam made sense to me (I'm a born Muslim, but started practicing only in 2007). He said you're self contradicting because faith doesn't need to make sense to you for you to believe in it; you just believe in it. I said to him that applies to non-Muslims, not to Muslims because the specialty of Islam is that it is a totally logical faith. There is hardly anything in it that is just a random commandment. Rather, every aspect of Islam has a lot of wisdom behind it.

It became uselessly vehement after that. Alhamdulillah, both of us remained within our limits but we could sense each other's anger. imsad

I know his stance is valid that all you need is Allah. I can't say that he is wrong, but the fallout of this argument left me thinking if everyone thinks that they are Muslims because it "appeals" to them, or are they just Muslims with blind faith in Allah and His Messenger (PBUH)? I understand that being Muslim you need to have utter faith in both Allah and His Rasool :saws1:, but is that the only reason for your devotion. In other words, are you a Muslim because it makes sense to you or you're just Muslim with little to no regard for logic and reasoning?

:sl:

Jazakallahu khayr for sharing your issues with us. My brother in life you will come across many who will argue and fight with you about trivial matters or use their little understand of Islam to give a distrorted view about a particular matter/s. That is why "little knowledge is dangerous knowledge". What i would sincerely advise you to do is to avoid getting into such arguments as much as you can even though it may be difficult at times. If you know about the issue in accordance with the understanding of reliable scholars then state your stance using wisdom and tact and then leave it at that. But if are unsure about the matter then simply say that you are unsure and will look into it or ask the relevant knowledgable people and then get back to him and that he should also do the same rather than merely state his own opinion without much knowledge about it. There is nothing wrong with not knowing the answers, as we are all human and even scholars do not know the answers much of the time and they themselves have to look into certain issues and topics or ask or refer to those more knowledgeable than them.

Regarding the issues that both of you were debating then firstly we should try our utmost to imitate not only the characteristics and sayings and actions of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) but also what he wore like the Jubba, Imaamah, topi, Kohl, Miswaak, Ithar, leather socks etc. This is because inner purification is just as important as outer purification. We know very well what the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) wore as is stated in many ahadith and the sayings of the companions etc. Although his clothing etc was for the region it is also something we as his followers should aspire to follow and implement just like the followers of any idol and celebrity would aspire to want to dress and be like his idol. Our idol and the one we want to be like and imitate is the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) and therefore we should aspire to want to dress and be like him. But you are correct in that as long as one conforms to the conditions set out by the Qur'an and Sunnah regarding the way we dress etc then it is perfectly acceptable. But we should all aspire to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) FULLY with regards to dress as well as actions, sayings and purification of the heart and soul.

Also just because Dr Zakir Naik wears a suit then that is no reason to put him down like your friend did. We should not put another Muslim down by making ourselves seem more superiour for that is arrogance. Dr Naik is doing good work by spreading the word of Islam and trying his best to clarify misconceptions of non believers. He is not perfect and makes mistakes, but dont we all? What is apparent that most of his work is good and beneficial to both Muslim and non Muslim. He or anyone else has no right to put im down. In life there will always be haters but we should not be one of those people who hate, but we should look at ourselves first and reflect over our own flaws before we put others down. So he has no basis in his criticisms of Dr Zakir Naik.

I think you should take the brother to a man of knowledge or even send him a good online lecture from a scholar on the obligation of dawah in Islam because he seems to wrongly think that it is not upon us to spread the word of Islam and to clarify misconceptions of the non believers when it is our duty:

"Invite to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’an) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided." [Quran 16:125]

Prophet Muhammad ( completed his assignment in his lifetime by conveying the message to the entire Arabian Peninsula and sending letters to the heads of surrounding countries. In his Khutbah (ceremony) of his farewell Hajj (pilgrimage), he passed on the responsibility to every Muslim when he said : "Those who are present should convey (my message) to those who are not". [Al-Bukhaari]

Remember! Da'wah has great rewards. The Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) said: "Whoever guides someone towards good, will receive the reward of the one who acts upon it." [Muslim]

Therefore it is clear that the obligation of dawah is upon us and that means we must also give dawah to non Muslims to in the best way that we possibly can, even if it is one good word, even a smile or acting good towards a non believer, showing them the superiour characteristics taught to us by the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) who was the best example for the WHOLE of mankind.

Regarding Islam being logical then it is completely logical to believe wholeheartedly in the Qur'an and the Sunnah in the way the Qur'an was revealed, memorized and written down having no linguistical errors, and the hadith being transmitted and validated in accordance with the chains of narrations etc all of which logic applies. It is completely logical to believe that the Qur'an is a continuation of the revelation revealed to all the Prophets. The proof is in the Qur'an itself and its contents. It is also completely logical to believe that the Prophet Muahammad (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) was the last and the seal of the Prophets and this proof is also in the Qur'an and Sunnah and by examining the remarkable life of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam), by his deeds, actions, sayings and his whole life which is a miracle in itself.

Everything Allah revealed to us through the Qur'an and through the actions and sayings of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wasallam) is completely logical and makes sense to the human mind. Have you not heard of countless reverts to Islam saying "Islam made complete sense to me"? That is because it appeals to human logic. Even myself i was attracted to the logic of the Qur'an and Sunnah and that appealed to me in a way that no other religion or faith did. Obviously there are many things which are beyond our logic and reasoning. For example the angels, death, hereafter, heaven and hell etc but then again so are things like black holes and how the Universe was created, big bang etc, our mind cannot comprehend what they really are, we can only guess or imagine in accordance with our limited thinking and understanding.

So as Muslims we know everything in Islam does make sense, even though we have never seen or experienced death, or the hereafter we know that it only makes sense that it does exist. Therefore Islam is completely compatible with human logic in the way that it makes complete sense to us. That which is beyond our reasoning, understanding to comprehend still makes sense to us. Even that which may or may not makes sense to us becomes something that we believe in without a doubt because we trust in Allah and know that there is always a special wisdom behind his creation and that which he commands from us.

And Allah knows best in all matters

['Abd-al Latif]

:sl:

The example you gave is not valid as it is completely logical not to wipe underneath the sock due to the fact that the wetness underneath the sock will catch more dirt and it will also breed bacteria especially when the shoe is worn, causing the foot to smell and making it uncomfortable to wear a wet sock in a shoe.

Therefore as Shaykh Uthaymeen mentioned that the fact that one wipes the top of the foot is not for the purpose of "cleaning" the foot but as an act of worship, signifying the fulfillment of the act of masah.

And Allah knows best in all matters

You're missing the point. I've already said that we wipe the top of the sock cuz its an act of worship, there is no issue with that.

But if the area of wiping the sock was left to ones intellect only, one would wipe the the bottom of the sock seeing as this is where the dirt is collected. you don't wipe the top of your shoes when you enter into ones home, you don't brush the sides of your muddy trainers because that's not where the dirt is collected. This would be the most likely case if one did not know what Islam says. The wiping of the top is because this is what is legislated in Islam.

Im not indulging into any scientific explanations here. I hope you understand the point being made.

[Hamza Asadullah]

You're missing the point. I've already said that we wipe the top of the sock cuz its an act of worship, there is no issue with that.

But if the area of wiping the sock was left to ones intellect only, one would wipe the the bottom of the sock seeing as this is where the dirt is collected. you don't wipe the top of your shoes when you enter into ones home, you don't brush the sides of your muddy trainers because that's not where the dirt is collected. This would be the most likely case if one did not know what Islam says. The wiping of the top is because this is what is legislated in Islam.

Im not indulging into any scientific explanations here. I hope you understand the point being made.

:sl:

My brother i understand the point you are trying to make but you used the wrong example, as the purpose of Masah is to take away the need to have to fully wash the foot like in Wudu for a fixed amount of time, therefore it would not make sense to have to "clean" any part of the foot thereafter. So the purpose of simply wiping a little portion of the front of the foot during the state of Masah signfiys that one is in exempt from having to fully clean one's foot due to the fact that one is in the state of Masah.

So the point i am trying to make is that to have to "clean" any part of the foot after being in the state of Masah would not be logical and that is why one does not have to clean any part of the foot after being in the state of masah but only wipe a small portion with ones fingers to signify one is exempt from having to wash ones foot.

If we are still in disagreement then we will have to agree to disagree. Jazakallahu khayr