"Muslims are well-integrated in Britain – but no one seems to believe it"

[glo]

Interesting article by Leon Moosavi on the integration of Muslims in Britain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...=FBCNETTXT9038

[Cabdullahi]

The cherry on top, to facilitate full integration, would be if we downed a pint of lager at the pub.

[muslimah bird]

^^^^and also dance with them a night club ,lol.

[Santoku]

Interesting article by Leon Moosavi on the integration of Muslims in Britain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...=FBCNETTXT9038

P.S Did you read the reply to that glowing endorsement? The other side of the statistics?

"Have you ever considered that mass immigration may have caused a decline in the connection indigenous Britons feel towards their country?

Also, if you wish to use polls, please provide the other side of the story:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ma...-homosexuality
- 0% of British Muslims found homosexuality acceptable.
- 3% found relations outside of marriage morally justifiable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html
- 40% of this poll found Muslims wanting Sharia law in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-values.html
- 75% of young muslims want women to wear the veil (or at least hijab) compared to 19% of adult population.

As I’ve stated though, there are rather more concerning patterns emerging:

1) The extremist views of young Muslims in particular (aged 16-24)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-students.html

These results are from a poll of Muslim students:

– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
– 40 percent support the introduction of sharia for British Muslims.
– 33 percent support a worldwide Islamic caliphate based on sharia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-radical.html & http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-values.html

These results are from Muslims polled (16 – 24) for Policy Exchange:
-37 percent of young British Muslims want Sharia law in Britain.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.

2) Support or Sympathy with Terrorism & 3) Conspiracy Theories

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/23/uk.religion

-According to a 2006 Pew Survey, only 17% of British Muslims believe that Arabs carried out the September 11th attacks.

http://www.channel4.com/news/article...bout+77/545847

-According to an NOP survey, 2007:
-24 percent of British Muslims deny that the four British Muslim suicide bombers carried out the 7/7 attacks.
-24 percent of British Muslims believe the British government carried out the 7/7 attacks.

http://news.scotsman.com/ViewArticle...icleid=2798950 & http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3244cf90-262...ml&_i_referer=

-According to Channel 4 Polls in August 2006, reported in both the Scotsman and the Financial Times:
-24 per cent agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified.
-45 per cent think 9/11 was carried out by the US or Israel.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle729974.ece
-16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.

4)The denial of Islam requiring scrutiny, and the will to suppress free speech and criticism.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291

-NOP Channel 4 polling came out with these results:

-33% of Muslims want Sharia Law as implemented in Saudi Arabia.
-28% of muslims agreed they dreamt of Britain becoming an Islamic State.

-78% wanted Danish cartoonist prosecuted.
-68% want prosecutions for insulting Islam.
-62% disagree with the freedom of speech if it insults religious sensibilities.
-50% said British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.

-Between 5-9% say that violence to protect Islam is acceptable.
-Whilst 10-13% found that they “understood” why young muslims might want to become suicide bombers.


Source: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/"

Not quite so integrated there,are they?

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Perseveranze]

P.S Did you read the reply to that glowing endorsement? The other side of the statistics?

"Have you ever considered that mass immigration may have caused a decline in the connection indigenous Britons feel towards their country?

You're probably going to get banned for being an idiot. But just thought i'd correct you;

"indigenous"? What?

What's the difference between those who came on boats and those who came by plane, if they're both born in the same country? I believe Scientists say that most Brits are ancestors of Norman/Viking invaders.

Not to mention how the ancestrial goes all the way to Iraq (ain't that ironic) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...years-ago.html

[Perseveranze]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ma...-homosexuality
- 0% of British Muslims found homosexuality acceptable.
- 3% found relations outside of marriage morally justifiable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html
- 40% of this poll found Muslims wanting Sharia law in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-values.html
- 75% of young muslims want women to wear the veil (or at least hijab) compared to 19% of adult population.

As I’ve stated though, there are rather more concerning patterns emerging:

1) The extremist views of young Muslims in particular (aged 16-24)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-students.html

These results are from a poll of Muslim students:

– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
– 40 percent support the introduction of sharia for British Muslims.
– 33 percent support a worldwide Islamic caliphate based on sharia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-radical.html & http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-values.html

These results are from Muslims polled (16 – 24) for Policy Exchange:
-37 percent of young British Muslims want Sharia law in Britain.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.

2) Support or Sympathy with Terrorism & 3) Conspiracy Theories

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/23/uk.religion

-According to a 2006 Pew Survey, only 17% of British Muslims believe that Arabs carried out the September 11th attacks.

http://www.channel4.com/news/article...bout+77/545847

-According to an NOP survey, 2007:
-24 percent of British Muslims deny that the four British Muslim suicide bombers carried out the 7/7 attacks.
-24 percent of British Muslims believe the British government carried out the 7/7 attacks.

http://news.scotsman.com/ViewArticle...icleid=2798950 & http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3244cf90-262...ml&_i_referer=

-According to Channel 4 Polls in August 2006, reported in both the Scotsman and the Financial Times:
-24 per cent agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified.
-45 per cent think 9/11 was carried out by the US or Israel.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle729974.ece
-16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.

4)The denial of Islam requiring scrutiny, and the will to suppress free speech and criticism.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291

-NOP Channel 4 polling came out with these results:

-33% of Muslims want Sharia Law as implemented in Saudi Arabia.
-28% of muslims agreed they dreamt of Britain becoming an Islamic State.

-78% wanted Danish cartoonist prosecuted.
-68% want prosecutions for insulting Islam.
-62% disagree with the freedom of speech if it insults religious sensibilities.
-50% said British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.

-Between 5-9% say that violence to protect Islam is acceptable.
-Whilst 10-13% found that they “understood” why young muslims might want to become suicide bombers.


Source: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/"

Not quite so integrated there,are they?

Alhamdulilah for most of these.

[جوري]

You're probably going to get banned for being an idiot.

here here..

[aamirsaab]

P.S Did you read the reply to that glowing endorsement? The other side of the statistics?
....
Not quite so integrated there,are they?

Most of that data is age biased. People at that age tend to be more rebellious, fight the system kind of guys anyway - regardless of their religious affiliation. In fact, I'm pretty sure you could find similar percentages if the poll was taken for non-muslims given it's the exact same thing kids at that age are inclined to think. That's not even going into the fact that a lot of those facts and figures, even if they reflect a more sizeable proportion of muslims in Uk, mean much anyway given that:

A) Not a single muslim party exists to potentially carry out our fulfill any of those opinions (e.g. sharia law or anything to do with changing current laws to be more "suited" for muslims)
B) They are not particularly harmful (linked with above)
C) Most importantly, do not signifiy anything to do with integration or lack thereof (.e.g understanding why young muslims might want to become suicide bombers...which laughably only 13~% even share that view...clutching at straws I think?)

I'll make the issue as clear as it can possibly be: Sharia law punishments cannot be handed down to non-muslims. So in the extremely unlikely of Caliphate being estalblished any time soon, and then allowing Britain to even allow a muslim party to run, and then having said party be elected by a majority of the British public, and then said party somehow discards decades of the established magna carta, overhauls the entire system in such a way that only Shariah Law could work 100% (I'm talking far beyond politics here) ---> non muslims would not be affected. Heck, Muslims wouldn't be affected - only the ones committing crimes, ironically, since their punishments would be much harsher. The ones that are obeying the laws of Islam are the ones who aren't in jail currently, and wouldn't even be affected by a new law system anyway. I bet your head is puzzled: why do so many people want this then? Because, like every teenager who gets a bit of knowledge, they think they're a bad-ass and they say bad-ass things, but they don't have the neccessary life experience to know the difference between bad-ass and dumb-ass, so what actually comes out of their mouths is dumb and childish.

The difference between me and them, is I'm a bad-ass.

[aadil77]

P.S Did you read the reply to that glowing endorsement? The other side of the statistics?

"Have you ever considered that mass immigration may have caused a decline in the connection indigenous Britons feel towards their country?

Also, if you wish to use polls, please provide the other side of the story:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ma...-homosexuality
- 0% of British Muslims found homosexuality acceptable.
- 3% found relations outside of marriage morally justifiable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html
- 40% of this poll found Muslims wanting Sharia law in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-values.html
- 75% of young muslims want women to wear the veil (or at least hijab) compared to 19% of adult population.

As I’ve stated though, there are rather more concerning patterns emerging:

1) The extremist views of young Muslims in particular (aged 16-24)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-students.html

These results are from a poll of Muslim students:

– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
– 40 percent support the introduction of sharia for British Muslims.
– 33 percent support a worldwide Islamic caliphate based on sharia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-radical.html & http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-values.html

These results are from Muslims polled (16 – 24) for Policy Exchange:
-37 percent of young British Muslims want Sharia law in Britain.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.

2) Support or Sympathy with Terrorism & 3) Conspiracy Theories

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/23/uk.religion

-According to a 2006 Pew Survey, only 17% of British Muslims believe that Arabs carried out the September 11th attacks.

http://www.channel4.com/news/article...bout+77/545847

-According to an NOP survey, 2007:
-24 percent of British Muslims deny that the four British Muslim suicide bombers carried out the 7/7 attacks.
-24 percent of British Muslims believe the British government carried out the 7/7 attacks.

http://news.scotsman.com/ViewArticle...icleid=2798950 & http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3244cf90-262...ml&_i_referer=

-According to Channel 4 Polls in August 2006, reported in both the Scotsman and the Financial Times:
-24 per cent agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified.
-45 per cent think 9/11 was carried out by the US or Israel.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle729974.ece
-16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.

4)The denial of Islam requiring scrutiny, and the will to suppress free speech and criticism.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291

-NOP Channel 4 polling came out with these results:

-33% of Muslims want Sharia Law as implemented in Saudi Arabia.
-28% of muslims agreed they dreamt of Britain becoming an Islamic State.

-78% wanted Danish cartoonist prosecuted.
-68% want prosecutions for insulting Islam.
-62% disagree with the freedom of speech if it insults religious sensibilities.
-50% said British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.

-Between 5-9% say that violence to protect Islam is acceptable.
-Whilst 10-13% found that they “understood” why young muslims might want to become suicide bombers.


Source: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/"

Not quite so integrated there,are they?

Excellent statistics (except for the alqaeda bit), I'm glad many muslims dissapprove of sin

The culture of UK is changing, soon it will be non-muslims integrating into islamic culture

We will uphold to british culture in terms of food, clothing, architecture, sports etc but not anything that goes against our faith

[truthseeker63]

Britain has more Muslims then Christians from what I hear.

[truthseeker63]

Very few British People even go to Church.

[truthseeker63]

Islam 'will be dominant UK religion'

By ROBERT SMITHhttp://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Artic...=76212&Sn=BNEWISLAM will be the most widely practised religion inthe UK by 2020, according to British and Muslimmagazine editor Sarah Joseph.She says mosque attendance is expected to outstripchurch attendance over the next 16 years.Estimates suggest that anywhere between 10,000 and50,000 people a year convert to Islam in the UK, whichis currently home to approximately 1.8 millionMuslims."We are the second largest faith in Britain and willbe the largest practising faith in Britain by 2020 ifyou use church and mosque attendance as a measure,"she told the GDN.http://www.islamawareness.net/Fastest/dominant.html

[glo]

"We are the second largest faith in Britain and will be the largest practising faith in Britain by 2020 ifyou use church and mosque attendance as a measure,"she told the GDN.

That may well be true.

I am just reading a book about having a Christian presence in a multi-faith society.
According to a BBC ICM Survey conducted in 2005, the faith make-up of Britain was then as follows:

Christian: 67%
Muslim: 3%
Jewish: 1%
Hindu: 1%
Sikh: <1%
Other: 4%
No Faith: 22%
refused: 1%
don't know:<1%

But out of those 67% self-declared Christians only 17% attend church services regularly - compared to 58% of Muslims who regularly go to mosque and 47% of Sikhs who regularly attend a gurdwara or temple.

I think one of the problems is that here in the UK religion has become something which is kept private, not publically displayed, demonstrated or even talked about.
Hence it has become something people do 'on their own' and not communally anymore.
It's a shame, because I think much of the Christian teaching is about worshipping and serving God as a community and a group. It's not meant to be private or done in isolation ...

On top of that, people may call themselves Christian for cultural reasons rather than theological ones.

I think it's because of the keep-religion-private-attitude that Muslims are creating ripples. Because here you have a group of people who clearly demonstrate their faith by how they look and dress, and by what they do. Islam is not afraid to make itself seen and noticed! :)

Perhaps that's a message other faiths (including Christianity) will take courage from and grow more confident again. :)

[Muhammad]

What is important to note on the topic of integration is that Islam actually encourages values that British people once regarded important, but have been lost in their culture. For example, the upholding of family ties and strong connection with one's family. Islam therefore restores many values that are common and appreciated by all. It is not only about apostates, homosexuality, capital punishment etc. People should be aware of the holistic picture, not misrepresentations by the media.

[tango92]

P.S Did you read the reply to that glowing endorsement? The other side of the statistics?

"Have you ever considered that mass immigration may have caused a decline in the connection indigenous Britons feel towards their country?

Also, if you wish to use polls, please provide the other side of the story:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ma...-homosexuality
- 0% of British Muslims found homosexuality acceptable.
- 3% found relations outside of marriage morally justifiable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html
- 40% of this poll found Muslims wanting Sharia law in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-values.html
- 75% of young muslims want women to wear the veil (or at least hijab) compared to 19% of adult population.

As I’ve stated though, there are rather more concerning patterns emerging:

1) The extremist views of young Muslims in particular (aged 16-24)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-students.html

These results are from a poll of Muslim students:

– 33% claim that killing is justified if done to protect religion.
– 40 percent support the introduction of sharia for British Muslims.
– 33 percent support a worldwide Islamic caliphate based on sharia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...e-radical.html & http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sh-values.html

These results are from Muslims polled (16 – 24) for Policy Exchange:
-37 percent of young British Muslims want Sharia law in Britain.
-36 percent of young British Muslims think apostates should be killed.
-13 percent of young British Muslims said they “admired” Al Qaeda.

2) Support or Sympathy with Terrorism & 3) Conspiracy Theories

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/23/uk.religion

-According to a 2006 Pew Survey, only 17% of British Muslims believe that Arabs carried out the September 11th attacks.

http://www.channel4.com/news/article...bout+77/545847

-According to an NOP survey, 2007:
-24 percent of British Muslims deny that the four British Muslim suicide bombers carried out the 7/7 attacks.
-24 percent of British Muslims believe the British government carried out the 7/7 attacks.

http://news.scotsman.com/ViewArticle...icleid=2798950 & http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3244cf90-262...ml&_i_referer=

-According to Channel 4 Polls in August 2006, reported in both the Scotsman and the Financial Times:
-24 per cent agreed or tended to agree that the 7/7 bombings were justified.
-45 per cent think 9/11 was carried out by the US or Israel.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle729974.ece
-16 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Israel.
-7 percent of British Muslims support suicide bombing in Britain.

4)The denial of Islam requiring scrutiny, and the will to suppress free speech and criticism.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/291

-NOP Channel 4 polling came out with these results:

-33% of Muslims want Sharia Law as implemented in Saudi Arabia.
-28% of muslims agreed they dreamt of Britain becoming an Islamic State.

-78% wanted Danish cartoonist prosecuted.
-68% want prosecutions for insulting Islam.
-62% disagree with the freedom of speech if it insults religious sensibilities.
-50% said British people who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted.

-Between 5-9% say that violence to protect Islam is acceptable.
-Whilst 10-13% found that they “understood” why young muslims might want to become suicide bombers.


Source: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/"

Not quite so integrated there,are they?

to be honest your post is pretty much the only good news ive heard about muslims for a long time

Alhumdulillah the Youth of the muslims are starting to come back to islam, i have high hopes for the third generation (our children) too.

[glo]

What is important to note on the topic of integration is that Islam actually encourages values that British people once regarded important, but have been lost in their culture. For example, the upholding of family ties and strong connection with one's family. Islam therefore restores many values that are common and appreciated by all.

Well said. I agree with that.

[M.I.A.]

Well said. I agree with that.

unfortunately british muslims seem to be unable to convey those values to the rest of the public.

like the first few replies show, dawah seems not our strong point. but we make easy scapegoats with so much anger.. obviously.

no change to spare.

[Pygoscelis]

Those stats are a bit alarming. But it does mostly look to youth. But isn't youth supposed to be more progressive and less extreme than older folks?

In the UK:

That many muslims want to kill people who disrespect their religion?
That many want to bar free speech if it mentions their religion?
That many hate homosexuals?
That many wish to overthrow their government and install some muslim theocracy?

If this is true in the UK, then I guess we know where the stereotypes come from. I'm glad I live in an area where muslims are not so much like that at all.

[Qurratul Ayn]

Great Britain is already becoming Halaal (in a way) without even telling the public.

This article is a bit out-dated but thought-provoking, nonetheless...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aughtered.html

It's interesting to see that Asda didn't make a comment on the table (on the website), even though they have their own Halaal Meat Centre in larger branches... Hmmm...

[Muezzin]

P.S Did you read the reply to that glowing endorsement? The other side of the statistics?

"Have you ever considered that mass immigration may have caused a decline in the connection indigenous Britons feel towards their country?

I love it when people try to justify xenophobia. Anyway, the most recent influx of 'mass immigration' into Britain consits mostly of people from Eastern Europe, who tend to be Christian rather than Muslim.

Also, if you wish to use polls, please provide the other side of the story:

[Datasplurge of content meant to encourage a dislike of Muslims and Islam]

Not quite so integrated there,are they?

You don't sound very well integrated in this forum. Would you like some Chill Pills to help you relax? They're really cheap and I accept Reality Checks.

Those stats are a bit alarming. But it does mostly look to youth. But isn't youth supposed to be more progressive and less extreme than older folks?

In the UK:

That many muslims want to kill people who disrespect their religion?
That many want to bar free speech if it mentions their religion?
That many hate homosexuals?
That many wish to overthrow their government and install some muslim theocracy?

If this is true in the UK, then I guess we know where the stereotypes come from. I'm glad I live in an area where muslims are not so much like that at all.

Generally speaking, what people say they believe on a poll does not neccessarily reflect their conduct in daily life.

[truthseeker63]

Homosexuality is not allowed in any Religion as far as I know.

[truthseeker63]

If homosexuals are real, then how can Islam disapprove of homosexuality?


Ok, from what I heard and read, some scientists "proved" that homosexuality is natural. Now while many, if not most, scientists refuted homosexuality and proved that it is unnatural, but I will go ahead and accept that homosexuality is natural for the sake of argument. I will take the worst case scenario in this article and still refute it by Allah Almighty's Will.

It is important to know that it is also natural for us to incline toward lusting after the opposite sex. So does this now justify lust, fornication and adultery? The answer is obviously NOT.


An addition by brother KL - a new convert to Islam; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him. Ameen.
(Emphasis below are mine)
Subject: Medical proofs that homosexuality is unnatur al.
From: KL
To: QuranSearchCom@yahoo.com
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:55:51 +0100

I am a student of the third year of the faculty of medicine. When I was browsing your site
(http://www.answering-christianity.com/are_homosexuals_real.htm), I read the following sentence:
"Some scientists "proved" that homosexuality is natural. Now while many, if not most, scientists refuted homosexuality and proved that it is unnatural"
This is what the medical sciences have to say (I have learnt it during an lecture in Immunology):
Homosexual activity in males can cause infertility. That's because if semen is ejaculated to the rectum during the homosexual intercourse, it can contact white blood cells (the lymphocytes) which start produce antibodies against sperms. Later those antibodies start destroying the man's own sperms. This means that the man cannot have children.
I'm posting this because many Christian people still believe that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. But no-one can seriously believe that a thing that makes one cannot have children is good and natural. Perhaps it would be good if you put this piece of medical evidence on your site, as it confirms what the Qur`an says about gays.
Humbly yours,
KL


Conclusion:
Neither homosexuality, lust, fornication or adultery are allowed in Islam. Therefore, even if a person thinks that he/she is a homosexual, then he/she needs to work on removing this evil desire from their heart and mind exactly as ordinary Muslims work on removing the evil desires of lust, fornication and adultery from their hearts and minds.

http://www.answering-christianity.co...xuals_real.htm

Since other groups who have been discriminated against (such as women, blacks and the disabled) have been given equal opportunity, homosexuals claim that they, too, should be liberated. However, as one Christian expert has said …

“Gender, race and impairment all relate to what a person is, whereas homosexuality relates to what a person does.”1


http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html


Gay Marriage = End of Human Race: Lessons from the Prop 8 TrialJune 17, 2010 by Audrey Bilgerhttp://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2010...-prop-8-trial/
Alex Jones Says Gay People are Created by the Government

Uploaded by vilemonkey on Jun 11, 2010

Alex Jones Says Gay People are Created by the Government

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2w2TRxSLxw

[truthseeker63]

Homosexuality is anti life anti procreation anti human therefor why do some people have an issue with the Sharia Law punishing Homosexuality or outlawing Homosexuality in public or in society ?

[truthseeker63]

Homosexuality harms the Children the Kids the Youths in society it is wrong to brainwash the Young that being Gay is normal. Homosexuals can not even procreate Children therefor it is fair to say Homosexuality is anti Children. Many People I have known who have Children even if they don't have Children People think Children should be protected I agree therefor don't allow Homosexuals to have Adoption rights. The video below if you watch the end of it shows People bringing Children to this Gay Pride Parade how sick ?

Islamic Demonstration Against NYC Gay Parade 2008(2of2)





Uploaded by islamicthinkers on Jul 3, 2009
Islamic Thinkers Society Demonstrating against the NYC Gay parade in 2008. May Allah s.w.t. the Creator be a witness over our deeds as we tried to forbid this evil with our tongues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V04zQ...feature=relmfu

[M.I.A.]

so you put a person or plural to death.

and the next time somebody feels unsure about anything they will remember your answer.

brilliant society where the answer is off with his/her head.

before you or i was the devil.

your whispers and mine may not be the same, but your answers are not acceptable. your version of sharia law is something the taliban would carry with them.

and they could fight forever and not win.

the very people they fight for would get sick of them.

only those against them would be vindicated.



when you finally figure out that points of contention are traps then you may walk around them. so yeah homosexuality.. plastered all over the face of the world today.. just ready for your answer.

i would think a lot of people that are worried about there sexuality would be turned away from islam if there was only hellfire for them, things change gradually.. even if they became pious muslims would they still be seen as second class or worthless muslims?

well if they confided in you then just go by your own answers.

[GuestFellow]

Salaam,

I'm buying some ornaments for my new table. :) IKEA will be kind enough to make one for me.

I don't trust statistics. The articles lack information like about sample size. People change their beliefs on a regular basis, thus making these research studies unreliable. However, it does present an element of truth.

The comments on the Guardian website show many posters are very upset. :/

[glo]

At what point did this thread turn into (yet another) thread on homosexuality?
What's with the obsession with sex??

[sofiap]

i don't believe in any data, does give true value ..unless done over a vast amount of 'collective persons'..i am a British muslim, and i wasn't asked about the poll,and i'm sure many others weren't either...being good people is what we first need to grasp,I love the british people,the kindess is natural....there are always negative people,doesn't matter what people like to label themselves,i have learn't much awareness because i was not suppressed to think only one way only,[culture has that effect] ,kept my individualized footprint as a muslim,but also thrived on the 'old british values'....it's all about using our God given intellect...when we don't we will see misguidance and misunderstandings..that lead to other worse reactions...and intelligent people to not take everything that is given to them blindly,until proven otherwise, as they would understand the reality of data has its faults and its limitations,and its intentions....

[Pygoscelis]

When I see hate speech like what truthseeker posted above I tend to believe the statistics above that.

Homosexuality hurts children? How? Beyond the guilt and shame you make them feel and bullying they face because of your sentiment passed to your children and cohorts? You worry about flamboyant gay pride? It is a backlash to the shame you try to push on them. When you force people into closets (perhaps even on pain of death), then once you lose your iron fist over them they will come out loud and proud. We saw the same thing with Black Pride in the racist USA. It swings to an extreme, and beyond what it should be, because it is backlash.

Homosexuals can't reproduce and therefore homosexuality should be forbidden? What about infertile couples? Should they also be forbidden to marry?

Homosexuality is not natural? What do you mean by not natural? Is it supernatural? If you mean it doesn't happen in nature, that is clearly wrong, and even if that were true why would it matter? Is it natural for men to fly above the clouds? It is natural for men to venture deep below the sea or into space? Are you going to forbid airplanes, submarines, and space ships?

[aadil77]

Homosexuality is not natural?

packing someones fudge in order to gain pleasure is not natural

[جوري]

Homosexuality is not natural? What do you mean by not natural?

Futile cycles aren't considered natural look it up!

[جوري]

What about infertile couples? Should they also be forbidden to marry

Marriage & copulation through unnatural means are two separate things. In fact using someone's else's eggs or sperms should be forbidden.
Of course once they find out one guy fathered 200+ they change the laws a little as happened recently .. prevention never seems to play a role in western societies... it is always about pushing the envelope... some people are just unhappy until every law is broken!

[GuestFellow]

When I see hate speech like what truthseeker posted above I tend to believe the statistics above that.

Homosexuality hurts children? How? Beyond the guilt and shame you make them feel and bullying they face because of your sentiment passed to your children and cohorts? You worry about flamboyant gay pride? It is a backlash to the shame you try to push on them. When you force people into closets (perhaps even on pain of death), then once you lose your iron fist over them they will come out loud and proud. We saw the same thing with Black Pride in the racist USA. It swings to an extreme, and beyond what it should be, because it is backlash.

Homosexuals can't reproduce and therefore homosexuality should be forbidden? What about infertile couples? Should they also be forbidden to marry?

Homosexuality is not natural? What do you mean by not natural? Is it supernatural? If you mean it doesn't happen in nature, that is clearly wrong, and even if that were true why would it matter? Is it natural for men to fly above the clouds? It is natural for men to venture deep below the sea or into space? Are you going to forbid airplanes, submarines, and space ships?

Well to put it simply practicing homosexuality is not permissible because Islam states that this is the case. For some people, they may need more reasons. The human body is designed in a certain way and by adhering to it is considered natural. For two men to engage in anal sex is not considered natural because nothing is supposed to be entered in that part of the body. So that is another reason. Some may argue that not all homosexuals engage in this practice. Well homosexual marriages and other sexual activities may lead to anal sex, so we rather eliminate all the possibilities that lead to it.

You may get other arguments against homosexuality, but I admit they are not very good IMO. It does not end this issue. Like some say homosexuals are mentally disturbed. This opens another massive debate.

Anyway, I need to start asking you some questions. Why do you support homosexuality?

At what point did this thread turn into (yet another) thread on homosexuality?
What's with the obsession with sex??

It's an issue that has not been resolved. Some people think in order for Muslims to integrate into western society, they must accept/support homosexuality.

[Pygoscelis]

Well to put it simply practicing homosexuality is not permissible because Islam states that this is the case.

Yes that is what I thought. That and the "ick" factor. I too find homosexuality disgusting, but I don't consider that a reason to hate on homosexuals or forbid them what they want to do between consenting adults. I find a lot of things icky but it isn't my place to tell others not to do them, especially when I can see harm they are doing to me or anybody else.

Some may argue that not all homosexuals engage in this practice. Well homosexual marriages and other sexual activities may lead to anal sex, so we rather eliminate all the possibilities that lead to it.

Heterosexuals engage in anal sex as well. Should we ban that too?

Like some say homosexuals are mentally disturbed.

Which has no more basis than my overzealous anti-religious colleagues that say that religion is delusion and therefore you muslims are mentally disturbed. That kind of empty rhetoric runs in all directions and I see no reason to listen to it.

Anyway, I need to start asking you some questions. Why do you support homosexuality?

I don't support homosexuality. I am heterosexual and the thought of lust or sex acts with my own gender disgusts me. But I don't see any reason to stop others from loving who they will, so long as they don't harm others. I endorse live and let live and I will stand against hating people or harming them (ie, those who say homosexuals should be denied equal rights such as marriage, or even put to death).

I feel the same way when others are attacked, this isn't special to homosexuals. I strongly and frequently butt heads with Christian fundamentalists who want to do mean things to muslims. If homosexuals told me that they wanted to end Islam, deny muslims the right to marry, and even kill muslims for engaging in islamic prayer (because they declare it an abomination or something), I'd be making the same stance then as I am here, but the other way around.

[GuestFellow]

Yes that is what I thought. That and the "ick" factor. I too find homosexuality disgusting, but I don't consider that a reason to hate on homosexuals or forbid them what they want to do between consenting adults. I find a lot of things icky but it isn't my place to tell others not to do them, especially when I can see harm they are doing to me or anybody else.

It has nothing to do with being gross at all for me at least. I mentioned why I do not support homosexuality. That is the reason. Nothing more. I will simply tell people what I believe and allow them the freedom to choose what is right and wrong.

In an Islamic state, one has to engage in sexual activities in public to actually get executed.

Heterosexuals engage in anal sex as well. Should we ban that too?

Well it is not permissible for a man to have anal sex with his wife in Islam. So it's banned. Whether people follow this practice is up to them.

I don't support homosexuality. I am heterosexual and the thought of lust or sex acts with my own gender disgusts me. But I don't see any reason to stop others from loving who they will, so long as they don't harm others. I endorse live and let live and I will stand against hating people or harming them (ie, those who say homosexuals should be denied equal rights such as marriage, or even put to death).

Well that's interesting. We both have a different idea of what support means.

By supporting homosexuality, I mean:

1. You state that homosexuals should be allowed to engage in sexual activities.
2. You support homosexuals getting married.

I think you meet those two criteria.

Also would you support a father marrying his own daughter? They are not harming anyone, nor they are planning to have children. So would this be right? I'm just trying to understand where your coming from. Overall it appears if something does not harm you, you will not have any issue with it.

There is another reason why I do not support homosexuality. It opens floodgate into all sorts of marriages. Marriage can then occur between immediate family members, to objects or even dead bodies. Sometimes I think legalising homosexuality should take its course and see what impact will have.

I feel the same way when others are attacked, this isn't special to homosexuals. I strongly and frequently butt heads with Christian fundamentalists who want to do mean things to muslims. If homosexuals told me that they wanted to end Islam, deny muslims the right to marry, and even kill muslims for engaging in islamic prayer (because they declare it an abomination or something), I'd be making the same stance then as I am here, but the other way around.

I'm aware you believe that.

[Pygoscelis]

Well that's interesting. We both have a different idea of what support means.

By supporting homosexuality, I mean:

1. You state that homosexuals should be allowed to engage in sexual activities.
2. You support homosexuals getting married.

I think you meet those two criteria.

That would be a very different definition of "support" to me indeed. Do I also support Islam under this definition? I state that muslims should be allowed to engage in prayer. I support muslims getting married. Seems I meet the criteria even though many here would call me anti-muslim.

There is another reason why I do not support homosexuality. It opens floodgate into all sorts of marriages. Marriage can then occur between immediate family members, to objects or even dead bodies. Sometimes I think legalising homosexuality should take its course and see what impact will have.

I actually see the whole gay marriage debate as highlighting something far more important to me - that being the separation of church and state. I do not believe the church should have any business telling the state who should be married and entitled to certain legal status in regard to one another. And I also do not believe that the state should have any business telling the church who is must recognize in a spirtual bond, etc. Marriage as we now have it clouds the church and the state, and I think that should be split.

I think we should have civil unions for everybody who wants to enter them, including family members, people with the same gender, and any other consenting adults, in whatever number wants to sign on (poligamy is fine with me) brigning with them the legal status that marriage now holds. This would be a legal arrangement, with no spiritual or cultural significance.

In addition people could then get "Married" and "marriage" would hold no legal status, and only spiritual and cultural significance. Marriages could then be recognized or not recognized by individual religions as they see fit. You wouldn't have to recognize gay marriage and I could, and nobody's legal rights would be in the balance.

[GuestFellow]

That would be a very different definition of "support" to me indeed. Do I also support Islam under this definition? I state that muslims should be allowed to engage in prayer. I support muslims getting married. Seems I meet the criteria even though many here would call me anti-muslim.

Well your supporting Muslims to practice their religion. I would say you are indirectly supporting Islam here. From your perspective, there is nothing wrong with supporting homosexuality?

I actually see the whole gay marriage debate as highlighting something far more important to me - that being the separation of church and state. I do not believe the church should have any business telling the state who should be married and entitled to certain legal status in regard to one another. And I also do not believe that the state should have any business telling the church who is must recognize in a spirtual bond, etc. Marriage as we now have it clouds the church and the state, and I think that should be split.

I think we should have civil unions for everybody who wants to enter them, including family members, people with the same gender, and any other consenting adults, in whatever number wants to sign on (poligamy is fine with me) brigning with them the legal status that marriage now holds. This would be a legal arrangement, with no spiritual or cultural significance.

In addition people could then get "Married" and "marriage" would hold no legal status, and only spiritual and cultural significance. Marriages could then be recognized or not recognized by individual religions as they see fit. You wouldn't have to recognize gay marriage and I could, and nobody's legal rights would be in the balance.

Well I remember you mentioning this before. It sounds like a practicable solution for now.

From your second paragraph, I assuming you accept/support people to marry their own immediate family members. Is this correct?

[Pygoscelis]

Well your supporting Muslims to practice their religion. I would say you are indirectly supporting Islam here. From your perspective, there is nothing wrong with supporting homosexuality?

I have no problem with homosexuals or homosexuality. I support equal rights and fair treatment for them, for muslims, and for everybody else.

From your second paragraph, I assuming you accept/support people to marry their own immediate family members. Is this correct?

I would have no problem with civil unions between immeidate family members, no. I would be concerned if the arrangement was romantic and if they tried to have children though, due to the health risks that introduces.

[GuestFellow]

I would have no problem with civil unions between immeidate family members, no. I would be concerned if the arrangement was romantic and if they tried to have children though, due to the health risks that introduces.

Yes this is the problem. By legalising homosexuality, you allow these other types of marriages. Marriage between immediate family members can result in babies with medical conditions. Even if the law states, marriage between immediate family members cannot have children, there is a possibility that they will.

[Pygoscelis]

Yes this is the problem. By legalising homosexuality, you allow these other types of marriages.

No you don't.

Marriage between immediate family members can result in babies with medical conditions.

Only if the people have sex. My concept of civil union has nothing to do with sex.

Even if the law states, marriage between immediate family members cannot have children, there is a possibility that they will.

There is a possibility that they will regardless of if they are married. Why do you presume that immediate family members that want to have sex will wait until they are married?

[TrueStranger]

I would have no problem with civil unions between immeidate family members, no. I would be concerned if the arrangement was romantic and if they tried to have children though, due to the health risks that introduces.

Homosexuality IS a health risk.

While estimates show that gay and bisexual men and other men who have sex with men comprise only about 2% of the U.S.population, this group accounts for most new HIV infections (61% in 2009)

http://www.kff.org/hivaids/upload/3029-12.pdf

[glo]

Only if the people have sex. My concept of civil union has nothing to do with sex.

That's interesting.
I guess for us 'religious types' marriage is seen as closely connected with having sex (and raising children).

What other reasons would there be for civil unions? I assume legal ones? Or just wanting to make a formal commitment to each other?

For those people you mentioned who should not have sexual intercourse for medical reasons (such as closely related relatives), do you think that should be determined in the union vows? Or a promise made to that effect?

[Pygoscelis]

I guess for us 'religious types' marriage is seen as closely connected with having sex (and raising children).

What other reasons would there be for civil unions? I assume legal ones? Or just wanting to make a formal commitment to each other?

Note how I split "Civil Union" and "Marriage" apart above. Civil Union to me is solely for the legal benefits, which are numerous. Everything from tax implications, to visitation rights and surrogate decision making, to estate issues, legal commitment to one another (requiring legal divorce to dissolve), etc, with legal paperwork put through city hall. Marriage to me is the spiritual or traditional or emotional union, with a ceremony in a place of worship (or wherever), which has no legal attachments and can be recognized or not recognized by others as they see fit.

If you look at the history of marriage you will see that they started off being very similar to my idea of civil unions, though the arrangements were a bit off by our standards today. Women, who were considered property or considered the more vulnerable sex in need of protection etc, were given to the husband by the father, usually a dowry was involved, and the husband would protect her etc. If you look at gender roles within marriage in Islam in fact, you see duties that are owed to one another between the partners and rules for them regarding those outside the marriage. These are things that can be included within civil unions to make them binding in law, like any other contract. I personally find the traditional marriage contract from ages past as anti-woman, but modern civil unions need not be that way.

If the state wants to get involved to make these "rules" of marriage mean anything then it has to be a formal contract, and if we are to keep the church and state separate then it has to be separated from the religious or spiritual version of "marriage". I don't see why you can't have both and just keep them apart. You can have your civil union and your marriage. I can have my civil union without a marriage. The homosexuals can have their marriage too, and you can go on telling them it isn't a "real" marriage according to Islam and they can shrug that off since they are not muslim.

For those people you mentioned who should not have sexual intercourse for medical reasons (such as closely related relatives), do you think that should be determined in the union vows? Or a promise made to that effect?

I don't think civil unions should have "vows". I think civil unions should have written and binding legal contracts. I think incest should probably be discouraged outside the contract, by the state. Maybe a law should apply, or maybe just an educational campaign. I am not an expert regarding the affects of incest and inbreeding, so I don't know which is more appropriate.

[GuestFellow]

No you don't.

Yes you do. Other people when they see homosexuals getting married, may demand to get married to their immediate family members, their pets or objects. It's a possibility.

Only if the people have sex. My concept of civil union has nothing to do with sex.

These concepts can lead to people having sex and this possibility exists. Not everyone has sex before marriage.

There is a possibility that they will regardless of if they are married. Why do you presume that immediate family members that want to have sex will wait until they are married?

When an act is legalised and people tell you it is acceptable, then it's likely more and more people will do it. Sometimes by officially recognising immediate family relationships, it's a possibility more and more people will engage in these sorts of behaviour because they believe it is acceptable.

It explains why homosexuals want to get married so badly. They want to be accepted and recognised. The more something is accepted, the more people will do it.

So I'm referring to the impact legalising homosexuality will have.

[glo]

Thanks, Pygo.
I have spent much time pondering the meaning of marriage in the religious, spiritual, legal and secular sense.
It means so many different things to different people.

So I appreciate reading your thoughts on it. :)

[Pygoscelis]

Yes you do. Other people when they see homosexuals getting married, may demand to get married to their immediate family members, their pets or objects. It's a possibility.

There are a lot of case studies you can look at. I happen to live in one. Gay marriage is legal in Canada. I don't feel any less heterosexual. We don't have droves of people demanding to marry their dogs. There are plenty of other places that have legalized gay marriage and they don't have droves of people demanding that either.

Thanks, Pygo.
I have spent much time pondering the meaning of marriage in the religious, spiritual, legal and secular sense.
It means so many different things to different people.

I think the fairest way to address all the conflicting views on marriage (and there are so many) is to separate the legal and spiritual aspects, and then let people all have what they want regarding hte spiritual / traditional. The gays can get "married" but you need not recognize it :) Do you think that'd be an acceptable compromise? And if so, do you think we could ever get such a thing signed into law?

[GuestFellow]

There are a lot of case studies you can look at. I happen to live in one. Gay marriage is legal in Canada. I don't feel any less heterosexual. We don't have droves of people demanding to marry their dogs. There are plenty of other places that have legalized gay marriage and they don't have droves of people demanding that either.

Time will tell. The legalisation of gay marriages will not lead to mass crowd of people desiring to marry their dogs. Of course their sexuality will not change unless they want to experinment. However, there will be some people that want to marry their immediate family members, objects or animals. There are people like that and want their voices heard. So I'm saying legalising homosexuality could lead to other people wanting to be recognised and accepted.

[Pygoscelis]

So I'm saying legalising homosexuality could lead to other people wanting to be recognised and accepted.

Well sure. Gays probably couldn't have come out of the closet and demanded equal rights and fair treatment had blacks and women not fought for their civil rights beforehand and blazed the trail for social change and cultural fairness and equality. This is not a bad thing.

[GuestFellow]

Well sure. Gays probably couldn't have come out of the closet and demanded equal rights and fair treatment had blacks and women not fought for their civil rights beforehand and blazed the trail for social change and cultural fairness and equality. This is not a bad thing.

Well there always have been changes in society and I'm not denying what your saying is true. The civil right movement provided a firm foundation for homosexuals. I'm glad homosexuals are protected from physical/verbal abuse, so something positive did arise. However, I still suspect there will be long-term consequences for gay marriage.

[Abz2000]

lol,
it was adam and eve, not adam and steve.

[Pygoscelis]

it was adam and eve, not adam and steve.

Actually it was Ug and Uhn and their girl, Mmmh.

[جوري]

Actually it was Ug and Uhn and their girl, Mmmh.

at the risk of being banned-pls. don't share your boudoir narrative on the forum!

[Santoku]

You're probably going to get banned for being an idiot. But just thought i'd correct you;

"indigenous"? What?

What's the difference between those who came on boats and those who came by plane, if they're both born in the same country? I believe Scientists say that most Brits are ancestors of Norman/Viking invaders.

Not to mention how the ancestrial goes all the way to Iraq (ain't that ironic) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...years-ago.html

Actually the quote is not mine I quoted that from the replies to the the original article, indicating that a large chunk of muslims had not integrated well.

[جوري]

If God intended us to integrate he'd have created just one race, heck even one being with one gender!

[tango92]

[Futuwwa]

*snip*

Source: http://my.telegraph.co.uk/danielpycock/danpycock/956/what-do-british-muslims-think-of-the-uk/"

Not quite so integrated there,are they?

Learn the difference between integration and assimilation.

Attitudes like yours only further alienate Western Muslims. Why should anyone of us bother to try to "integrate" when you keep moving the goalposts? It's obvious that you won't be satisfied until we have renounced Islam completely.

[Musaafirah]

What's wrong with all the various communities just getting on at least without the media feeling the need to hype out every situation.
Anyway, the news people must have been having a slow day to try and bring the whole integration issue back on the table and open for angry replies.. I mean look at the replies that were written in response to the original article!

[M.I.A.]

Learn the difference between integration and assimilation.

Attitudes like yours only further alienate Western Muslims. Why should anyone of us bother to try to "integrate" when you keep moving the goalposts? It's obvious that you won't be satisfied until we have renounced Islam completely.

i think it works both ways. in the city where i live there are distinctly jewish areas.

orthodox jews dressing as such.
living as such and trading as such.

they are not mentioned in every other news article and media story.

and yet they run the world? its not a conspiracy. its just not the type of attention they pander to.

and any of you think they getting less grief than muslims are well.. what do you think about jews?

anyway hope you get what integration is about. its about keeping under the radar of people with soapboxes and spare time.. politicians in this case.

its also about taking responsibility within the failings of the muslim community so people have less ammo against you or just living tit for tat.

[Pygoscelis]

Personally I'd settle for a bump in the stats presented above towards less hate, less endorsement of violence and death, less calls for censorship, and less calls for denying rights to specific groups (ie, homosexuals). We really don't have that problem with Canadian muslims (here muslims are more on the receiving end of such attitudes - which is something we hope to fix), so I was surprised to see those stats for British ones. Maybe the stats themselves are wrong? Or maybe not, as I have seen some similar attitudes on this forum (but it is by no means the norm here).

[Pygoscelis]

at the risk of being banned-pls. don't share your boudoir narrative on the forum!

I was referring to early proto-humans prior to language. But now I see you have a dirtier mind than I'd have thought of you.

[جوري]

I was referring to early proto-humans prior to language.

Sure sure ...

[seymour]

There's some very extreme views on here, its like stepping back into the dark ages, a bit disturbing really :hmm:.

Thankfully Britain is and always will be a nation where EVERYBODY has the right to chose how they want to live their life. Live and let live.

[Muhammad]

There's some very extreme views on here, its like stepping back into the dark ages, a bit disturbing really :hmm:.

Thankfully Britain is and always will be a nation where EVERYBODY has the right to chose how they want to live their life. Live and let live.

Live and let live indeed. That is why Muslim students are being arrested based upon fabricated evidence. With all the Islamophobia and blatant bias against Muslims, one wonders which dark ages you are referring to.