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GuestFellow
07-09-2012, 04:52 PM
:sl:

I'm not really good at debating myself, but what approaches do members take when proving another member is wrong?

I personally do not even bother presenting my own views first. Unless they ask me first, I try to establish what the other member is trying to advocate. I need to find out in detail what the member is trying to say and if it is necessary, ask them for proof. If they have no proof or the evidence in my opinion is not conclusive, then the debate ends for me. No point in engaging in further discussion if the member cannot even sort out his own arguments.

When asked about my views, I will try to gather as many sources as I can to support my arguments. Sometimes one source is sufficient if the evidence speaks for itself.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-09-2012, 05:56 PM
how old are you if I may ask? You sound sensible.


I use to get involved in debates before through no fault of my own, I use to get dragged into them.


But I am terrible at debating so I prefer to just stay out of it lol
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GuestFellow
07-09-2012, 09:03 PM
^ Asslamu Aliakum,


I'm 20 years old.

I have seen it on this forum. Some members/people simply do not know how to prove something. When they do present evidence, especially when it requires technical knowledge to understand it, they expect the lay member to develop the techniques to interpret the evidence (which may take years of studying/training) and want them to accept their arguments.

It's like me presenting this piece of Act of Parliament to you and expecting you to understand all of it in a few minutes.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/contents

Some members/people don't like it when someone disagrees with them and use insults. This gives an insight to their mentality, especially when they resort to rhetoric. They don't like being wrong.

I personally don't mind being wrong. Not afraid to admit it.

I think if members have a view, try to explain it as much as possible and with evidence. If you have no evidence, then say so and not try to force other people to believe it. It's so simple, but difficult to implement in practice.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-09-2012, 09:18 PM
^ I am in complete agreement :)
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Perseveranze
07-09-2012, 09:56 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Whenever you make a claim, back it up, not just with evidence but also with scholarship quotations. We're definitely laymen, and we aren't necessarily qualified to look at a primary source and come to a conclusion, especially in matters related to say; Islam, as you need some deep Classical Arabic knowledge to make any personal judgements.

That's why, if you present an argument, you should try to give not just the evidence, but also quotations from experts who are qualified/knowledgeable to make such statements to strengthen and validate your argument. In such a position, you really have a strong foundation in the debate and unless the opposition can do the same with equally credible sources, then it's likely you're point will remain unchallenged.

The only thing you need to look out for after that is to make sure you haven't quoted anything out of context and that your sources are credible (like no dodgy scholars/academics).

Should also be noted that in Islam, unless you're a scholar, your opinion on a matter is invalid, and thus you always need a credible scholarly interpretation to bring about your point on most matters the religion. You'll find even most western academics, when talking about Islam, will always try to back a point up with some classical scholar understanding, since they themselves aren't Islamic scholars.
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GuestFellow
07-09-2012, 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Whenever you make a claim, back it up, not just with evidence but also with scholarship quotations. We're definitely laymen, and we aren't necessarily qualified to look at a primary source and come to a conclusion, especially in matters related to say; Islam, as you need some deep Classical Arabic knowledge to make any personal judgements.

That's why, if you present an argument, you should try to give not just the evidence, but also quotations from experts who are qualified/knowledgeable to make such statements to strengthen and validate your argument. In such a position, you really have a strong foundation in the debate and unless the opposition can do the same with equally credible sources, then it's likely you're point will remain unchallenged.

The only thing you need to look out for after that is to make sure you haven't quoted anything out of context and that your sources are credible (like no dodgy scholars/academics).
:wa:

These experts...how do we know who is qualified/knowledgeable? Not turning this topic into a debate, but I want to see how you respond.
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Perseveranze
07-09-2012, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Tragic Typos
:wa:

These experts...how do we know who is qualified/knowledgeable? Not turning this topic into a debate, but I want to see how you respond.
Asalaamu Alaikum,

This requires a little extra research, but you look at their credentials, look at their wiki pages (if they have one, as this helps a lot). Their past books and potential reviews on it.

Another thing I personally look out for is referencing. I know western Academics like Montgomery Watt, is probably the most referenced author amongst the Academic circles in regards to Islamic studies. (Google scholar can help with this). So they must have some form of credibility if they're referenced by many other Academia.

Same with Islamic scholars, though it's a bit different. With Islamic scholars you look at the ijma (consensus) of the Scholars, what the majority have said regarding a matter is likely to be the correct answer, since throughout history, if different scholars see the same sources and come to the same conclusions, it does strengthen a certain view. It should also be kept in mind that Classical Scholars in Islam are considered a much more reliable reference source than modern day scholars.
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-09-2012, 10:38 PM
Its a sticky situation. In the one hand we want to convey what we believe to be the truth with a good backing, but on the other hand we are NOT qualified to properly form valid arguments.

The most we can do is say "so and so said such and such" and to be honest.... I am satisfied with that...
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IslamicRevival
07-10-2012, 12:10 AM
We all have our own views when it comes to worldly matters but when it comes to Islamic knowledge thats where we step into dangerous territory. The Quran and Hadith cant be interpreted by the layman and if you try and do it without having any scholarly credentials you are tampering with Sacred knowledge. This is one reason of many why I take no notice of copy and paste Fatwas from the internet or selective quotes from the Quran or Hadith that are posted on here by some members so they can prove a point. It would be pure ignorarance on my part if i did.
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