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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-14-2012, 01:17 AM
:sl:

Not sure if many people know of this, but there's this phenomenal, unprecedented series on the life of Umar (ra) - I don't think I've watched an episode (and I'm on #25 now) except that I've cried in it and my love and admiration for the Messenger (saw), Umar (ra) and the Companions has gone up. The Arabic is excellent and the subtitles are very high quality and it is 101% true to the classical sources. It's very very well done, enjoyable and not at all dry. I recommend everyone watch it and share:



Disclaimer: If you don't agree with them showing the Companions, you are free to disagree. But please don't prevent it from others who will benefit from it.
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جوري
09-14-2012, 03:23 AM
Edit-- Just saw the disclaimer!
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Scimitar
09-14-2012, 03:33 AM
Love this series, I too was reduced to tears many a time. It is so in depth and covers more than I think I would ever give myself a chance to read on.

I got up to ep 26 and am patiently waiting for the other parts to get subbed and uploaded.

So far, some very hardcore right wing Muslim sects have caused an uproar about the series. I have examined their claims and found them to be very weak. One such person had the audacity to pose the question "Did you get permission from Umar (RA) to make this series?" - as if that wasn't blasphemy in itself, implying that the dead can talk to the living. Idiot. It's mentality like this that makes me even more fervent in completing the series.

Well done MBC, for once - you got something right :)

Scimi
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جوري
09-14-2012, 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
So far, some very hardcore right wing Muslim sects have caused an uproar about the series.
You don't think they had artists and craftsmen during the time of the prophet? If they didn't paint or chisel them the time they were alive why should we while they passed on? Did they want their legacy in the form of 'acting'? Also I don't know what hardcore 'sects' those are. Any Muslim who is ahel as'sunnah wal'jama3a should feel outraged by this.

That's all I want to say on the matter. I am not discouraging folks from watching. I am certainly not going to encourage it either..

:w:
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CosmicPathos
09-14-2012, 03:50 AM
Books are the best way to learn about something. Visualizations help sometimes in studies, such as memorizing anatomy. But certainly not in history!
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Scimitar
09-14-2012, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by منوة الخيال

You don't think they had artists and craftsmen during the time of the prophet? If they didn't paint or chisel them the time they were alive why should we while they passed on? Did they want their legacy in the form of 'acting'? Also I don't know what hardcore 'sects' those are. Any Muslim who is ahel as'sunnah wal'jama3a should feel outraged by this.

That's all I want to say on the matter. I am not discouraging folks from watching. I am certainly not going to encourage it either..

:w:
Well sis, I was in Topkapi Palace in Turkey and saw a lot of Islamic art from the early period. And yes, I saw depictions of sahabi RA, but not the Prophet pbuh. So if they could do it back then... then really?


Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Books are the best way to learn about something. Visualizations help sometimes in studies, such as memorizing anatomy. But certainly not in history!
I agree. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Scimi
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جوري
09-14-2012, 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Well sis, I was in Topkapi Palace in Turkey and saw a lot of Islamic art from the early period. And yes, I saw depictions of sahabi RA, but not the Prophet pbuh. So if they could do it back then... then really?
Only shiites have taken such a liberty and I have seen many a vile things and some not so vile by them in this regard. It is a question of whether it is allowed to depict them in this manner or not, and I'll leave that to ahel Al'ilm. If you were my sibling I'd beat you up for watching but given that you're my brother in Islam I am only going to say my peace!

:w:
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Scimitar
09-14-2012, 06:19 AM
I feel beaten up by you just mentioning it sis :( :D :( :| ^o) I don't even know how to feel anymore...
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جوري
09-14-2012, 06:19 AM
I apologize I shouldn't have said that to you..

:w:
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Scimitar
09-14-2012, 05:27 PM
:) no worries sis, I was just making light of it :) I know your intentions are good.

Scimi
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~Zaria~
09-14-2012, 06:33 PM
Assalamu-alaikum,



I had a disagreement with someone about the representation of the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in movies and plays, as happens a great deal nowadays. He said that this serves an interest, calling people to Islam and spreading noble Islamic morals and attitudes. What is your opinion on this matter?

Praise be to Allaah.

The Sahaabah have a high status in Islam, because they were the contemporaries of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); they fulfilled the duty of supporting him and being loyal to him, and they strove for the sake of Allaah with their efforts, their wealth and their selves. Hence the scholars are agreed that they are the elite and the best of this ummah, and that Allaah gave them the honour of being the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He praised them in His Book when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and falling down prostrate (in prayer), seeking Bounty from Allaah and (His) Good Pleasure. The mark of them (i.e. of their Faith) is on their faces (foreheads) from the traces of prostration (during prayers)”[al-Fath 48:29]

And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) praised them when he said: “The best of my ummah is my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them.” (al-Bukhaari, 3650; Muslim, 2535)

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) warned against belittling them, mocking them or insulting them when he said: “Whoever insults my companions, the curse of Allaah, the angels and all of mankind will be upon him.” (al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 2340).

Portraying any one of them on stage or on the screen is contrary to this praise from Allaah, and is detrimental to the high status and honour which Allaah has bestowed upon them. That is because representing any one of them in this fashion exposes them to mockery and ridicule. Actors are usually people who have no room for righteousness, piety and Islamic morals in their lives. Moreover those who put on plays are doing that as a means to earn money, and no matter how much they try to avoid it, it will involve some lying and backbiting.

Representing the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) has an effect on their status in the hearts and minds of the Muslims, and paves the way for Muslims to doubt their religion. It also necessarily implies that one of the actors will play the role of Abu Jahl or one of his ilk among the kuffaar, and he will have to utter words insulting Bilaal, and insulting the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the message of Islam that he brought. Undoubtedly this is a great evil.

What is said about this serving the interest of calling people to Islam and spreading noble Islamic morals and etiquette is simply an assumption and wishful thinking. Whoever knows the real nature and aims of actors will realize that this kind of acting is in sharp contrast to the real nature of the actors and their audience.

One of the basic principles in Islamic sharee’ah is that if a matter both serves an interest and does some harm, if the bad outweighs the good then it is haraam. Representing the Sahaabah may serve some interest but the harm done by this is far greater than any good that might be achieved.

So in order to protect those interests and ward off the harm, and to preserve the honorable status of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), we must not allow that.


Based on the above, it is haraam to represent any of the companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in movies or plays etc.

And Allaah knows best. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and all his family and companions.

Al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, in Majallah al-Buhooth al-Islamiyyah, 1/223-248.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/14488
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Perseveranze
09-14-2012, 06:40 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

It's only fair I post this so people can be better equiped in choosing to watch it or not..

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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-14-2012, 07:47 PM
^ I wasn't aware that the people in the series weren't actors nor did I know that it is possible to ask people who have passed away for their thoughts.

Please, this pious emotional argument minus any textual evidence doesn't hold any weight. If you don't want to watch, I respect that but I really can't take arguments such as the one in the video seriously.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-14-2012, 07:50 PM
Please read the disclaimer in the original post.
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~Zaria~
09-14-2012, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
:sl:


Disclaimer: If you don't agree with them showing the Companions, you are free to disagree. But please don't prevent it from others who will benefit from it.

Wa-alaikumsalam akhee,

Im just playing advocate here:

If our prophet (sallahu alaihi wasalam) was enacted/ portrayed in a series - how would you feel about this?
Not happy, right?

Would you feel satisfied to read a disclaimer regarding his (salalahu alaihi wasalam) portrayal in a movie?
No?

Well, in the same manner, and for those who wish to take heart to the above posted fatwa - a disclaimer does not do justice in this regard.

Akhee, this is not an attack on you.
But rather a means for us to all learn, and insha Allah stay away from that which may be even potentially displeasing to Allah.


For, the Prophet [sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam] said:

"Both legal and illegal things are obvious, and in between them are (suspicious) doubtful matters.

So whoever forsakes those doubtful things lest he may commit a sin, will definitely avoid what is clearly illegal;

and whoever indulges in these (suspicious) doubtful things bravely, is likely to commit what is clearly illegal.

Sins are Allah's Hima (i.e. private pasture) and whoever pastures (his sheep) near it, is likely to get in it at any moment."


Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari 3.267, Narrated An Numan bin Bashir



I too have learned something new today, when I read the above ruling.
I would have loved to watch this series (judging from the comments that have been made about it) - but I think its probably better to err on the side of safety in matters such as this.

Insha Allah, the book on the life of Umar (ra) is even better than this series, and will make us cry on every page that we read. : )

And Allah knows best.

:wa:
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CosmicPathos
09-14-2012, 08:54 PM
There is also no textual evidence which shows Prophet pbuh should not be depicted. But if he was to be depicted in a similar drama, how'd you feel Muraad? Why two reactions for Prophet's depiction and for Sahaaba's depiction when there is textual evidence for neither?
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-14-2012, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
There is also no textual evidence which shows Prophet pbuh should not be depicted. But if he was to be depicted in a similar drama, how'd you feel Muraad? Why two reactions for Prophet's depiction and for Sahaaba's depiction when there is textual evidence for neither?
Let's discuss this if/when they come out with such a drama :)
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-14-2012, 10:23 PM
Man, honestly I didn't make this thread to start this discussion. I just wanted to discuss the series with others who have watched it and were as moved and touched by it as I was.

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Wa-alaikumsalam akhee,
:w:

Sr. Zaria - I don't agree with that fatwa. The viewers are aware that i) it is not the actual Companion and ii) it is not taking away from the Sahaba's high status in the mind of the viewer.

Anyway, I had written this elsewhere, and I'll just CAP it here:

I feel differently - I think that not all people are the same. Yes, deen is supposed to be learned from the scholars but this series, to the best of my knowledge, does not claim that it is there to teach the deen. It is there to tell a story - and that story is the life of Umar (ra) which it does very well - professional, great accurate script, great imagery and great acting. It holds attention of a wide audience and has the potential to reach even further and that is saying a lot compared to the approach of getting people to sit in front of scholars which is not something most people will do (or can do due to personal circumstances, time, family work etc). I mean, we've seen how great this approach has worked when we see where most of the youth spend their Friday and Saturday nights. Now I'm not saying this series will turn that around but sticking to that way and putting the cap on new initiatives like this due to being afraid to utilize new methods will only increase that number. People are not the same and they react to different things. It is a series that will reach many people who otherwise wouldn't have been reached. I know a few people that have already watched this and it has drawn them closer to the deen. It became a gateway for them towards good. Why? Because it inspired them. Nothing wrong with a little bit of inspiration.

Today where entertainment is widespread and most people are watching TV and movies - it is imperative that we don't isolate ourselves from utilizing these means and coming up with beneficial series such as this one. Most people come home from a long day of work, tired and exhausted. They're going to watch TV - this is a fact (practicing or not-practicing) - is it better they watch something like this or a random TV show? I very much think the former.

The matter of portraying the Companions by actors is a matter of dispute amongst the scholars and it is fact that there is no textual evidence that prohibits this - I for one know of many that approve of this including a student of Sh. Al-Albani. If one believes it is not allowed -that is his prerogative.

It's important, especially in contemporary times, that we don't write things off because they're not inline with our traditional understanding of Islam when the methods are not textually prohibited. And it is very important to remember that not all people are the same and with the way most people are engrossed in entertainment - these kinds of productions should be promoted and encouraged. Series like these are beneficial and and entertaining. After all, who said the two are mutually exclusive? These series do something that nothing else does - that is, it provides a viable alternative to what is out there. All the places I've heard criticism from (and I'm speaking very generally here) against this and initiatives like this (some of which I honestly consider nitpicking) are the same places that do not themselves provide any viable alternative themselves. They condemn, state why they believe it is Haram, but when it comes to actually providing alternatives for the communities - there's nothing there. It's really frustrating to see that.

Imagine if we had a whole library of series like these on the Sahaba and that was shown to our kids in our Islamic schools? These same kids that grow up watching action movies and super hero movies like Batman, Spider-Man and Superman - making them their heroes and wanting to be like them. Do you think they'll still be thinking about them that much? I doubt it. I think they'll start saying "I want to be like Umar (ra) when I grow up!". We need that. We really do. And if we think we're going to make that happen by just telling them stories when they watch spectacular movies like Batman - well, we'll be stagnant for the next generation as well.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-14-2012, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Love this series, I too was reduced to tears many a time. It is so in depth and covers more than I think I would ever give myself a chance to read on.

I got up to ep 26 and am patiently waiting for the other parts to get subbed and uploaded.

So far, some very hardcore right wing Muslim sects have caused an uproar about the series. I have examined their claims and found them to be very weak. One such person had the audacity to pose the question "Did you get permission from Umar (RA) to make this series?" - as if that wasn't blasphemy in itself, implying that the dead can talk to the living. Idiot. It's mentality like this that makes me even more fervent in completing the series.

Well done MBC, for once - you got something right :)

Scimi
Me too, I finally finished Episode 26! Hopefully they'll have the rest up soon.

I think the most moving moment for me was the scene of Umar (ra) going and getting the food and cooking it for the woman and her children. "Will you carry my burden on the Day of Judgment as well?!". Man. Reading that before in the books was one thing, but seeing it portrayed is something else.

Man, I just wanna meet Umar (ra) and hug him lol.
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CosmicPathos
09-14-2012, 10:44 PM
I just watched 2 episodes and closed it.

the man portraying the Caliph has not done justice. Moreover the script is poor. All of a sudden the drama shifts from Umar in byzantine/syria to msg of muhammad pbuh, and all of a sudden Umar, who is depicted as a man of wisdom, is depicted as a short-sighted angry person who joins along with whom he hates in the beginning: the leaders of tribes. If you read biography of Umar, you'd see he is a much more complex person during the period of jahiliya, you cant dilute his character in some drama.

Moreover, many sequences seem contrived, such as where Ali as a child is telling his father about Islam. So contrived!

the biography of Umar by Anwar al Awlaki, frankly, is much more captivating.
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جوري
09-14-2012, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
you cant dilute his character in some drama.
That's indeed what is meant by those series, to break Islam to easy digestible bits to those who find it unpalatable. They were showing this when I was in Egypt this Ramadan and I was appalled that it was on, like they had Yusuf before and Khalid ibn ilwaleed. the first was made by Shiites and they choose this chubby odd character to represent a man described in the Quran as looking more like an angel to others.. sob7an Allah forever tainting his image.
The episode I saw in Egypt wasn't accurate in that the time Umar RA went to his sister's house, she refused to give him the scrolls until he made ablution, in this episode she just handed it to him. The Suraqa bin Malik also wasn't true to what actually occured.. Maybe adding here and subtracting there doesn't matter to the producer and actors but these aren't ordinary people being portrayed.
I don't want to be a hypocrite and tell people not to see it because I've seen a couple of episodes of it. But one should at least hate this in his/her heart!

:w:
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Aprender
09-14-2012, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
the biography of Umar by Anwar al Awlaki, frankly, is much more captivating.
Can you send it to me?
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جوري
09-14-2012, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
Man, honestly I didn't make this thread to start this discussion. I just wanted to discuss the series with others who have watched it and were as moved and touched by it as I was.
:sl: akhi,

if we didn't all love Umar RA we wouldn't feel as hurt or this much ghyra 3lyhi. I don't know how to say that word in English and not have it come out with a different rendition but it is truly ghera 3lyh- to not want any tom, dick and harry to play his character and portray him in an image different than what we know of him historically and what we picture in our mind.
We don't say these things simply to antagonize and I am already aware that whether we protest it or not, folks are going to watch but like I said in my last post at least one should hate this in his/her heart..

:w:
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جوري
09-14-2012, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Aprender
Can you send it to me?
you can find it on the kalamAllah site.. a long with biographies of all the other companions + stories from hadith + Israelyaat..

:w:
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-15-2012, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
I just watched 2 episodes and closed it.

the man portraying the Caliph has not done justice. Moreover the script is poor. All of a sudden the drama shifts from Umar in byzantine/syria to msg of muhammad pbuh, and all of a sudden Umar, who is depicted as a man of wisdom, is depicted as a short-sighted angry person who joins along with whom he hates in the beginning: the leaders of tribes. If you read biography of Umar, you'd see he is a much more complex person during the period of jahiliya, you cant dilute his character in some drama.

Moreover, many sequences seem contrived, such as where Ali as a child is telling his father about Islam. So contrived!

the biography of Umar by Anwar al Awlaki, frankly, is much more captivating.
Jazakallah Khayr for your opinion. When you create a series that will reach and benefit as many as this has, we'll talk insha'Allah.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-15-2012, 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by منوة الخيال

:sl: akhi,

if we didn't all love Umar RA we wouldn't feel as hurt or this much ghyra 3lyhi. I don't know how to say that word in English and not have it come out with a different rendition but it is truly ghera 3lyh- to not want any tom, dick and harry to play his character and portray him in an image different than what we know of him historically and what we picture in our mind.
We don't say these things simply to antagonize and I am already aware that whether we protest it or not, folks are going to watch but like I said in my last post at least one should hate this in his/her heart..

:w:
:w:

I guess whatever position we take - it is out of love for Umar (ra). I've watched 90% of the series and I've also listened to and read the biography of Umar ra before - he isn't portrayed in a different image than what is known in our texts. They've outdone themselves in accurately portraying him (ra) as a man of keen insight and wisdom. I'm not sure what the Br. above saw - but if one approaches something with a predetermined outlook, he's only going to see what he wants to.

And I disagree with your earlier comment on how 'anyone from ahl as Sunnah should feel outraged by this' - it's as if saying, liking it and being from ahl as Sunnah are antithetical. That's a very extreme stance to take especially when the stance is based out of emotions and not evidence. I respect everyone that doesn't want to watch it, but it's not right when they guilt trip others from benefiting from something they don't agree with - when there is no evidence to say otherwise. There are two people in this thread itself that have benefited from it - rhetoric isn't going to change how much more we love Umar (ra) now due to watching the series.
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CosmicPathos
09-15-2012, 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
Jazakallah Khayr for your opinion. When you create a series that will reach and benefit as many as this has, we'll talk insha'Allah.
Logical fallacy.

I have no interest in creating such entertainment dramas as part of my career. Allhamdulillah I do much more important stuff than movie-making. Best way to learn is reading, not watching stuff.

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CosmicPathos
09-15-2012, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Aprender
Can you send it to me?
Check your pm sis.
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Perseveranze
09-15-2012, 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
^ I wasn't aware that the people in the series weren't actors nor did I know that it is possible to ask people who have passed away for their thoughts.

Please, this pious emotional argument minus any textual evidence doesn't hold any weight. If you don't want to watch, I respect that but I really can't take arguments such as the one in the video seriously.
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I'm not arguing, I'm simply posting that video so people can judge for themselves. It's more of an Islamic ethical issue, which most scholars from what I've seen have discouraged.

People should be free to watch, but they should have a chance to see both sides and then make their choice. Hope you understand.
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Scimitar
09-15-2012, 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
Me too, I finally finished Episode 26! Hopefully they'll have the rest up soon.

I think the most moving moment for me was the scene of Umar (ra) going and getting the food and cooking it for the woman and her children. "Will you carry my burden on the Day of Judgment as well?!". Man. Reading that before in the books was one thing, but seeing it portrayed is something else.

Man, I just wanna meet Umar (ra) and hug him lol.
Gosh yeah, that scene was a heart stopper :)

And as he returns back to the city, he rests for a moment against a wall of a house where he overhears a daughter trying to dissuade her mother from watering the milk down for market the next day... and just walks off. Then comes back the next day to offer his son in marriage to the daughter of the house - simply based on her level of taqwa... insight like that. Is. What. I . Want. To. Have. But we are not those men...

...I never cry watching stuff on TV. Ever. Except when it comes to this series.

Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
the man portraying the Caliph has not done justice. Moreover the script is poor. All of a sudden the drama shifts from Umar in byzantine/syria to msg of muhammad pbuh, and all of a sudden Umar, who is depicted as a man of wisdom, is depicted as a short-sighted angry person who joins along with whom he hates in the beginning: the leaders of tribes.
:D Bro, the man portraying the Khaliph is only an actor. Not a Khaliph in reality, we should remember that he is under "direction" and personally, I think he did a good job. And I'm pretty critical of bad acting and scripts. The script is fine - if you can provide some textual evidence of where the script fails, I'd be more than happy to examine it and give you my take on it.

The drama does shift, because in the series (the man portraying) Umar RA, is looking back at his life, retrospectively. And why not? Do we not all reflect at some point? I really get irked by some of the posts here bro. It's as if the Sahabi RA are more than just men in the eyes of the anti-Omar-series mob - And therefore, any portrayal is seen as blasphemous by this mob - to me this is nonsensical. So when you say "... and all of a sudden Umar, who is depicted as a man of wisdom, is depicted as a short-sighted angry person who joins along with whom he hates in the beginning: the leaders of tribes." I see you also guilty of doing the same, placing Umar RA on a pedestool far above his human station. He was but a man, who achieved many MANY great things after he came to Islam. But before it - he was one of the staunchest enemies of Islam, i'm sure you know this. No one can do a biographic any justice if they do not attempt to portray the truth - no matter how much one may not want to know "certain" truths.

One other thing, he wasn't depicted as a "short-sighted angry person" - I'd correct that. Because all of his reasons for not accepting Islam were closely related to tribal affiliation, which, as we know, was a VERY big deal in those times. For him to part from tradition dating back centuries was most definitely something worthy of his own consideration. And we see that struggle in the series. At times, it seems he is almost ready to take shahadah, and then at the last moment he changes his mind. It was as if he was looking for a specific sign - and the portrayal of this struggle is amazing to watch. As we know, he got that sign when he was on the way to kill the Prophet pbuh and turned back to take care of his own household, whom had accepted Islam. After reading the words from the Quran, he was moved to tears. And we know what happens next... So bro, I don't for one second think this series is bad. It is a worthy addition to the tapestry if Islamic movies, documentaries etc...

You know what? If you all think that portrayal of sahabi RA is wrong, why didn't you eve kick up a fuss about The Message? That too had sahabi RA in it. just that they weren't the lead roles. Just because a series is made with a portrayal of a sahabi RA in the lead role - somehow makes it wrong?

I don't buy any of that noise.

As for the video that Perseveranze posted - that was the very same video that I found to be full of idiocy. And the salaf/wahhabi in it needs to speak without emotional content, and bring fact into it. As it was, the man in that vid made a complete pigs ear inn trying to disrepute the series. And anyone who buys into his emotional outburst needs a reality check.

Scimi
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-15-2012, 02:16 AM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Logical fallacy.

I have no interest in creating such entertainment dramas as part of my career. Allhamdulillah I do much more important stuff than movie-making. Best way to learn is reading, not watching stuff.
Nope. I'm simply not interested in arguing. :)
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CosmicPathos
09-15-2012, 03:28 AM
Scimi, bro lets not get into salafi/wahabi thing. Cuz for you to shun that video cuz the guy is salafi/wahabi is as emotional as you saying that his arguments were emotional.

I brought a point if muraad would be as willing to watch the series if Prophet was shown, he said that since that has not happened, lets not discuss that. Well, that is called avoiding the logical conclusion. Just because it has not happened does not mean it wont happen. You have given the impetus that since sahaaba can be depicted, once day after cultural evolution of few years, it would be "okay" to depict Prophet too. That is how culture/religions evolve slowly, things forbidden become things allowed over time.

Moreover, today they can show sahaaba, few decades down the road, they might as well be using sahaaba as stand-up comedians, much like what Christians did with Jesus.
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Insaanah
09-15-2012, 01:31 PM
:sl:

Seeing as Allah and the Prophets, amongst other things, taught us the history of previous prophets and nations that had passed, it might be pertinent to look at their approach as the best of teachers. Allah sent books to messengers, and it was from the revelations that the messengers (and therefore their followers) learnt of the nations and prophets before. The revelations were written and became the books that we know today, from which we learn. Each prophet usually had a band of close followers, as Isa :as: had his disciples and Rasoolullah :saws: had the sahaabah (may Allah be pleased with them).

Yet Allah didn't instruct the Prophets and their companions to use the acting method to teach their followers the stories of previous prophets, people and nations. Why? There could be several reasons for this. Because that was against the exact nature of what they came for. To pretend to be somebody they weren't, whereas as sincerity and clarity in ones intentions and dealings was paramount. It would place a false picture in somebodys mind. Rather than people aspiring to be like the best people on earth, they could just pretend, rather than striving in genuine actions. Once you can pretend to be a sahaabi, then it can lead to other types of acting and pretending, e.g. you can pretend to pray. And the Qur'an talks about those people who pretended to pray, pretended to believe etc. Also, how would you know when they were acting and when they weren't? The concept of pretending to be somebody else or appearing as somebody else also approaches the limits of deception (maybe not relevant when it's clear that acting is taking place, but from the Islamic point of view, when something is forbidden, all avenues leading to it are also forbidden).You're pretending to be one of the noblest people on the earth, whereas the Prophet :saws: and companions could never envisage that. We fear we cannot be like them, and pray that we can be like them, but pretending to be them takes the mickey somewhat, and loses the humility we're meant to have regarding these great characters. Acted films also then have to pad the stories out with other words, the "he said, she said" part, which has no basis in Qur'an and ahadeeth, the bits put to fill out and complete the story, and these are words that were most likely never uttered by the people concerned, and thus could be seen as attributing things to them that they never said, which is very serious.

It's just that because acting is the norm nowadays and has become an accepted medium for teaching things, therefore objections to it are made to appear to be backwards, to be behind the times, and to be over a trivial matter.

Children around the world go to school and learn by reading books. Even adults read non-fiction to learn. There are some brilliant seerahs of the prophet :saws: written, that are factual but so hard to put down once you start reading them. If you look at the first words of the Qur'an revealed (96:1-5), they talk directly about reading, teaching, knowing, and writing. Thus the siginificance of reading and writing is emphasised from the very beginning of Islam, and is locked in the very nouns that designate the Qur'an (reading), and the Kitaab (writing), as often referred to.

The best thing would be for a book to be written, based on authentic sources. In any way you look at it, acting their characters is treading on very dangerous ground, if not already there.

And Allah knows best.

:sl:
Reply

Scimitar
09-15-2012, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Scimi, bro lets not get into salafi/wahabi thing. Cuz for you to shun that video cuz the guy is salafi/wahabi is as emotional as you saying that his arguments were emotional.

I brought a point if muraad would be as willing to watch the series if Prophet was shown, he said that since that has not happened, lets not discuss that. Well, that is called avoiding the logical conclusion. Just because it has not happened does not mean it wont happen. You have given the impetus that since sahaaba can be depicted, once day after cultural evolution of few years, it would be "okay" to depict Prophet too. That is how culture/religions evolve slowly, things forbidden become things allowed over time.

Moreover, today they can show sahaaba, few decades down the road, they might as well be using sahaaba as stand-up comedians, much like what Christians did with Jesus.
Ask me, I will not go quiet. Infact, here is my answer to that.

I will not watch a depiction of the Prophet pbuh, but I do not hold the sahabi RA in the same esteem as the prophet pbuh. He was, after all, Gods chosen.

The sahabi RA were human too. But not so far above human station to get preferential treatment in their own times - yet today, you put them on a pedestool with coments like "How dare they depict Umar (RA) did they ask him for his permission" - that is stupid, ridiculous and unnecessary. If that is the best argument they can put forth, then I am smirking quietly from where I sit, because the man clearly went loops with that comment. And yes, he is most definitely a wahhabi.

You fail to see my point.

You fail to recognise that this series is only a means to an end. It will not throw the Muslim world into chaos, so stop being trouble makers and making trouble for something so trivial as this will be seen as a petty grievance in the grand scheme of things going on in the world today. Find something worthy to complain about.

Let's not forget that non Muslims are watching this too, and learning from it. And liking it. WOuld they have otherwise got the opportunity to learn about the companions? They don't even like to pick up books...

Now, donot get me wrong. I love books. I read a lot of books. I have my own little mini library at home. So don't think for a sec that I am against reading. I see the benefit of educational material in whatever form it is in.

Some of you are of the belief that drawing the human body is haraam (Zaria)... yet fail to recognise that it is totally permissible to draw the human body for educational purposes...

WELL GUESS WHAT? this series too, serves that purpose. So for crying out loud. GET REAL.

Scimi
Reply

Insaanah
09-15-2012, 02:42 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Scimitar
And yes, he is most definitely a wahhabi.
He is a Muslim, is he not? Surely that is what matters. The label you give him here is of no relevance to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Scimitar
So for crying out loud. GET REAL.
I hope we can all remain calm and respectful in this discussion. Rest assured that Brother CosmicPathos is (and the rest of us are) as much for real as you are.

:sl:
Reply

Scimitar
09-15-2012, 02:48 PM
Lol sis Insaanah.

What matters is your ability to determine what "educational material" is and what "entertainment" is... that is what.

salaam,

Scimi
Reply

جوري
09-15-2012, 03:16 PM
Question I would like to pose regardless of the subject of the thread is:

Is acting a form of deception? Are you pretending to be something you're not? Do you lie in bed with strange men? do you perform marriage ceremonies before witnesses and break that contract which is in fact binding if all the 'acting' is true to life so a woman who constantly marries for role play is married to how many men? Can we go before God and say well I was only acting it wasn't for real so it shouldn't count? when I embraced that man whom I pretended to be my son I was just kidding?
Can you act holy today so that people idolize you and then go get drunk and screw around and be forever linked in people's mind's with abu Bakr character or Uthman character? Are these all acceptable possibilities?

Something to ponder and again given that I have seen a couple of episodes I don't want to be a hypocrite but just throwing my two cents out there of why some of us find this form of 'story telling' abhorrent!

:w:
Reply

Scimitar
09-15-2012, 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Is acting a form of deception?
No, it is a form of representation. If the representation is based on factual accounts, then it can be seen as educational. If it is based around fiction, then it is just "acting" for a story and that is a past time - entertainment.

Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Are you pretending to be something you're not? Do you lie in bed with strange men?
What has this question got to do with the subject at hand? This is splitting hairs in the most silly of ways. This is not how to make a point sis.

Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
do you perform marriage ceremonies before witnesses and break that contract which is in fact binding if all the 'acting' is true to life so a woman who constantly marries for role play is married to how many men? Can we go before God and say well I was only acting it wasn't for real so it shouldn't count? when I embraced that man whom I pretended to be my son I was just kidding?
Can you act holy today so that people idolize you and then go get drunk and screw around and be forever linked in people's mind's with abu Bakr character or Uthman character? Are these all acceptable possibilities?
I don't see anyone idolising the actor. Nor do I see anyone idolising Umar RA either. I see educational material that allows me to understand the reality of those times in a way that maybe my imagination could not - because I did not research the material as thoroughly as the makers of the series did. And their representation is as accurate as they could fathom given the materials they had at their disposal.

If you feel like you are in danger of idolising the actor or Umar RA then simple - don't watch it until you can fix that error within your own heart. Simple.

Seems like your post is more suited to Shakepeare than this.

Scimi
Reply

~Zaria~
09-15-2012, 03:38 PM
Assalamu-alaikum

Its a sad reflection on the state of our Islam, when we are dissatisfied with the rulings provided by scholars who are far more knowledgable than us.

In some matters - we quote these same scholars/ muftis, when they support our view.
Yet at other times - we chose to rationalise our actions and use our own 'logic' to justify our motives.



Originally Posted by Scimitar
Ask me, I will not go quiet. Infact, here is my answer to that.

I will not watch a depiction of the Prophet pbuh, but I do not hold the sahabi RA in the same esteem as the prophet pbuh. He was, after all, Gods chosen.

The sahabi RA were human too. But not so far above human station to get preferential treatment in their own times - yet today, you put them on a pedestool with coments like "How dare they depict Umar (RA) did they ask him for his permission" - that is stupid, ridiculous and unnecessary.
As you are questioning the status of the sahaba in islam - please refer here: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...=2081&CATE=120

Originally Posted by Scimitar

Some of you are of the belief that drawing the human body is haraam (Zaria)... yet fail to recognise that it is totally permissible to draw the human body for educational purposes...

WELL GUESS WHAT? this series too, serves that purpose. So for crying out loud. GET REAL.

Scimi
As you are referring to the permissibilty of drawing animate pictures for educational (e.g medical) purposes, refer here: http://islamqa.info/en/ref/40054
(There has never been a dispute regarding picture making for valid and necessary purposes. Please do not misquote me.)


Do we really believe that we are at the level of being able to provide interpretations and our opinions on deeni matters to others?
What fitnah is this?

If there is another ruling with regards to the depiction and respect that should be shown to the companions of the prophet (sallahu alaihi wasalam), from a reliable source, please provide this.
And then we can close this discussion on the basis of differences between madhabs.

Our opinions in such issues, truly does not carry any weight.


:wa:
Reply

Scimitar
09-15-2012, 03:42 PM
Sis - define educational material for me. Because you seem to think it is only confined to the annals of the past and that nothing in our times can constitute as educational material. This is a very right wing stance you take, you took it on WUP and now here too. I'm aware of it.

I also know what "Middle way" means. Maybe you should go and check up on the definition first before going all fatwa on me.

Scimi
Reply

~Zaria~
09-15-2012, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Sis - define educational material for me. Because you seem to think it is only confined to the annals of the past and that nothing in our times can constitute as educational material. This is a very right wing stance you take, you took it on WUP and now here too. I'm aware of it.

I also know what "Middle way" means. Maybe you should go and check up on the definition first before going all fatwa on me.

Scimi
Where have I mentioned any of the above??

What you regard as 'right wing stance' - some of us regard as submitting to our deen in entirety.

I have not even mentioned 'middle way' in my post.
And certainly, I do not understand what 'going all fatwa' is.

If there is another reliable ruling from any other madhab, please provide this.
This is all I ask.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-15-2012, 03:51 PM
I thought everyone understand photography/picture making etc gains Allaahs curse?

let alone depicting the most illustrious of our ummah...


what is this....



subhanAllaah....
Reply

جوري
09-15-2012, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
No, it is a form of representation. If the representation is based on factual accounts, then it can be seen as educational. If it is based around fiction, then it is just "acting" for a story and that is a past time - entertainment.
But I have already mentioned two instances where the accounts weren't accurate and this is from someone who hasn't even sat for the entire series!


Originally Posted by Scimitar
What has this question got to do with the subject at hand? This is splitting hairs in the most silly of ways. This is not how to make a point sis.
A legitimate one. Also I remind you of how I started my post:

Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Question I would like to pose regardless of the subject of the thread is
Originally Posted by Scimitar
I don't see anyone idolising the actor. Nor do I see anyone idolising Umar RA either. I see educational material that allows me to understand the reality of those times in a way that maybe my imagination could not - because I did not research the material as thoroughly as the makers of the series did. And their representation is as accurate as they could fathom given the materials they had at their disposal.
If you feel like you are in danger of idolising the actor or Umar RA then simple - don't watch it until you can fix that error within your own heart. Simple.
You don't see anyone or you see yourself I am a bit confused- you can't speak for absolutely everyone who watches the series- Do people idolize their actors? I'd say so. I have already been told by grown men that they forever link that chubby odd character from Yousef with the prophet yousef PBUH that they can't even imagine him without being assaulted by images of that kid who many of them perceived as effeminate and gay like, who god knows does what other kind of acting on the side.

I think it is fair that everyone voices their concern without being labled 'ultra whatever sect' there's no sectarianism in Islam save for what the shiaas brought and we're not of them and neither they of us!
Reply

Jedi_Mindset
09-15-2012, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
I thought everyone understand photography/picture making etc gains Allaahs curse?

let alone depicting the most illustrious of our ummah...


what is this....



subhanAllaah....
Depends on which situation...

Bro, the muslim surgeons, how could they do their work and study the human body? Exactly, by drawings, they could study it and therefore carry out surgery.

The places of the organs, bones et cetera. they needed to draw that.
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IslamicRevival
09-15-2012, 04:00 PM
I dont think anyone can defend or justify depictions of Sahaba (Allah Be Pleased With Them All) in Movies or in any form, its disrespectful on many levels as no actor on this universe can trully do justice to their character. They (Allah be pleased with them all) are no ordinary beings, after all they are companions of our beloved Nabi (Infinite peace and blessings be upon him). They deserve the utmost respect and depicting them is not a sign of respect in my opinion.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-15-2012, 04:04 PM
You guys keep arguing iA - the ones that have benefited from it already have and many others will regardless. I'm glad you all have the time for it, but I honestly don't. The caravan moves on regardless of what people say. You are simply taking a traditional accepted understanding because people feel weird about having a regular person portray the Companions and turning into hukm - minus any textual evidence. You're only being prevented from good deeds and beneficial actions by the deception that you are doing something good by arguing with others. Instead of arguing - provide an alternative for the people that will benefit them - that way you've benefited the community and they have as well. Win win.

As al-Awzai so rightly stated: "When Allah desires evil for a people, He opens the door of argumentation for them and prevents them from doing good deeds."
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-15-2012, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Depends on which situation...

Bro, the muslim surgeons, how could they do their work and study the human body? Exactly, by drawings, they could study it and therefore carry out surgery.

The places of the organs, bones et cetera. they needed to draw that.
#

i understand that brother. jazakAllah for raising the point however




Muraad, there is a fine line between argumentation and discouraging evil.


a fine fine line.



may Allah grant us understanding
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-15-2012, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
Muraad, there is a fine line between argumentation and discouraging evil.
It is not evil until it is proven to be so akhi.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-15-2012, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
It is not evil until it is proven to be so akhi.
whats the point of posting daleel when the daleel I will post has already undoubtedly been seen by you.


it is not daleel we need, thats why I made my previous post asking for a dua, asking for understanding....
Reply

Insaanah
09-15-2012, 04:54 PM
:sl:

It is disappointing to see how this thread has panned out.

Some questions:

When there are means such as books, and audio lectures, as asked for here and suggested here, why do we need to defend the depiction of the sahaabah by actors so vehemently, that we accuse our fellow members and above all brothers and sisters, of:

having errors in their hearts (when nobody knows the state of anyone's heart except Allah)
being right wing extremists not knowing what a middle way is
being prevented from doing deeds and beneficial actions by taking time to oppose this depiction of the sahaabah
and when taking part in an argument, accusing others of doing the arguing
amongst other things.

In saying such things, and making such accustions about our brothers and sisters, is there reward, sin, or neither? Something to think about carefully..

What is to be gained here, by doing so? In defending these depictions, are such depictions enshrined in the sunnah and in defending these depictions are we defending the sunnah from attack?

Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
Instead of arguing - provide an alternative for the people that will benefit them - that way you've benefited the community and they have as well. Win win.
Here we go:

Originally Posted by Insaanah
The best thing would be for a book to be written, based on authentic sources.
http://www.kalamullah.com/umar-ibn-alkhattab.html
http://archive.org/details/UmarIbnAl...isLifeAndTimes
http://www.kalamullah.com/anwar-alawlaki.html

Can I remind people, to post respectfully, and politely, without making accusations. If things carry on the way they have been, this thread runs the risk of being closed.

Jazaakumullah khayr.
Reply

Scimitar
09-15-2012, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
You guys keep arguing iA - the ones that have benefited from it already have and many others will regardless. I'm glad you all have the time for it, but I honestly don't. The caravan moves on regardless of what people say. You are simply taking a traditional accepted understanding because people feel weird about having a regular person portray the Companions and turning into hukm - minus any textual evidence. You're only being prevented from good deeds and beneficial actions by the deception that you are doing something good by arguing with others. Instead of arguing - provide an alternative for the people that will benefit them - that way you've benefited the community and they have as well. Win win.

As al-Awzai so rightly stated: "When Allah desires evil for a people, He opens the door of argumentation for them and prevents them from doing good deeds."
^this, so much this...

I will refrain from arguing with the rest of the mob here. I have what I need. you have your convictions. same convictions that let you frown at this series should be represented in Mustapha Akkads production of The Message, and also the cartoons of early islam, et al... yet I don't see you cause a fuss over that. Very selective. So keep to your (selective) convictions. I'm out of this thread :D

Assalaam alaikum.

Scimitar
Reply

Muhammad
09-15-2012, 06:12 PM
:salamext:

Threads such as this should not become a cause for division or ill-feeling. Naturally, we will incline to different stances in various issues, however, we should be able to discuss our views without putting the other side down. The Sahabah themselves held different opinions sometimes and yet they still upheld the best of manners and respect for each other. Likewise we must follow their example and not allow shaytaan the opportunity to sow discord. Not all posts have given this impression, but just a reminder Insha'Allaah.
Reply

Perseveranze
09-16-2012, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
As for the video that Perseveranze posted - that was the very same video that I found to be full of idiocy. And the salaf/wahhabi in it needs to speak without emotional content, and bring fact into it. As it was, the man in that vid made a complete pigs ear inn trying to disrepute the series. And anyone who buys into his emotional outburst needs a reality check.

Scimi
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I think that's being very disrespectful to the scholar and really wasn't needed. I also am unsure on how you know what "sect" he belongs to as well. The scholar simply discouraged against the depictions and gave an analogy as to why he holds that view, thus the title; "would you accept it for your wife?".

It was an emotional video due to the love he has for the companions(ra). The point he made was simple, if you had a wife, would you be happy if someone depicted your wife in a tv show that would be seen by millions? Many people would honestly answer no.

You don't have to agree with what he said, but I think some of the stuff you said was uncalled for.
Reply

CosmicPathos
09-16-2012, 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by Ibn Abi Ahmed
You are simply taking a traditional accepted understanding because people feel weird about having a regular person portray the Companions and turning into hukm - minus any textual evidence.
Customs and tradition forms an important source of classical fiqh. What better custom/tradition than that of salaf.
Reply

CosmicPathos
09-16-2012, 01:14 AM
I hope Saudis are banning this series, just like they banned the movie Message.
Reply

CosmicPathos
09-16-2012, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Let's not forget that non Muslims are watching this too, and learning from it. And liking it. WOuld they have otherwise got the opportunity to learn about the companions? They don't even like to pick up books...
you know, non-Muslims learn a lot from watching faahish videos too ... so your argument is nullified. Consequentialism is rotten.
Reply

CosmicPathos
09-16-2012, 01:19 AM
education material, this docu-drama? Get real, bro.

Your primary source of knowledge is docu-dramas? Docu-dramas are entertainment at best.

If someone wants to genuinely learn about something, they should head to the library, pick some books up and start their journey.

If they are blind, they can listen to audio-books. If they are deaf and blind, they can read specializd books written for them.
Reply

CosmicPathos
09-16-2012, 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
Threads such as this should not become a cause for division or ill-feeling. Naturally, we will incline to different stances in various issues, however, we should be able to discuss our views without putting the other side down. The Sahabah themselves held different opinions sometimes and yet they still upheld the best of manners and respect for each other. Likewise we must follow their example and not allow shaytaan the opportunity to sow discord. Not all posts have given this impression, but just a reminder Insha'Allaah.
I think disrespect, if any, has come from other side. Anti-series brothers and sisters have not really made emotional arguments, but rather valid points.

First we have been told that we will have any worth to partake in discussion if we are able to create a movie which "spreads and impacts" as this series has. And then the hurls of wahhabi and salafi. Its obvious who is getting a bit naughty in this thread.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-16-2012, 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Customs and tradition forms an important source of classical fiqh. What better custom/tradition than that of salaf.
It does, but there are rules and methodologies.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
09-16-2012, 02:44 AM
:sl:
In saying such things, and making such accustions about our brothers and sisters, is there reward, sin, or neither? Something to think about carefully..
The same thing everyone else is doing against the ones who've made the video and watched it - reading some of the posts it is as if the one's that have watched it have committed heresy or something, and yet all is based on nothing but dhann.

Originally Posted by Insaanah

Here we go:


http://www.kalamullah.com/umar-ibn-alkhattab.html
http://archive.org/details/UmarIbnAl...isLifeAndTimes
http://www.kalamullah.com/anwar-alawlaki.html

Can I remind people, to post respectfully, and politely, without making accusations. If things carry on the way they have been, this thread runs the risk of being closed.

Jazaakumullah khayr.
0) Books are great and so are lectures. But there's nothing wrong with another avenue to reach people. We need to evolve with the times. After all, it was the Malikis who came up with the concept of using a seeing eye dog to guide blind people even though they are the ones who are the hardest in fiqh against the najasa of a dog - yet they saw a benefit for the Muslims and people and went ahead with it even though people had been getting along just fine without this before. If we take the attitudes of some people here, no way can that be allowed because after all, dogs are filthy animals. Yet, they saw benefit in something and went ahead with it. Same here. They were forward thinking people within the guidelines of the deen - this deen inspired them to move forward. Backward thinking has already stagnated our growth - it's time to move ahead and expand our contribution everywhere as was the way of our ummah for the longest time minus the last few centuries.
1) Not all people are the same. Not all times are the same.
2) Read my post here: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1540636
3) Times are different. There is no textual evidence that you guys are bringing. At least provide something!


Anyway, clearly this is getting no where and I don't want people to argue with each other incessantly and I being the thread starter be the one who facilitated it. No thanks. I will close this thread now.
Reply

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