8 Women killed by Natio Airstrike

[User29123]

At least eight women have died in a Nato air strike in Afghanistan's eastern province of Laghman, local officials say.
Nato has conceded that between five and eight civilians died as it targeted insurgents, and offered condolences.
The remote region in which the strike took place is out of the reach of central government, correspondents say.
Earlier on Sunday, four soldiers with the Nato forces were killed in an attack by suspected Afghan police.
The attack in southern Zabul province brought to 51 the number of Nato troops killed in "insider attacks" this year, and came a day after two UK soldiers were killed at a checkpoint in Helmand by a man in police uniform.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19616356

[TG123]

Murdering hypocrites. They are no different from the Taleban. May God comfort their relatives, and may He make Afghanistan free from occupation.

[جوري]

Murdering hypocrites. They are no different from the Taleban

How are they no different? Taliban isn't flying drones over your country bombing your women. They're simply protecting their turf!

best,

[TG123]

How are they no different? Taliban isn't flying drones over your country bombing your women. They're simply protecting their turf!

best,

No, but the Taleban engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Hazara, burning down villages, bulldozing homes, conducting mass executions. The Taleban murdered and continue to murder Afghans who do not subscribe to their interpretation of Islam. They have burnt down schools. They commit atrocities against Afghans.

Do they bomb America? No. The only Americans the Taleban is "terrorizing" are the occupying soldiers... who would not be in the line of fire if they were not being invaders.

Their victims are Afghans. To some, that doesn't really matter. To me, it does.

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[جوري]

No, but the Taleban engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Hazara, burning down villages, bulldozing homes, conducting mass executions. The Taleban murdered and continue to murder Afghans who do not subscribe to their interpretation of Islam. They have burnt down schools. They commit atrocities against Afghans.

:lol: stop the BS your media feeds you to justify your pillaging and raping there!

[TG123]

stop the BS your media feeds you to justify your pillaging and raping there!

First of all, I am not justifying the NATO occupation. I have been to demonstrations against my country's role in the occupation of Afghanistan, and speak out against it.

I am not allowed to post links yet, but google "1998 Hazara massacre in mazar e sharif" I have never seen this on the news.

[جوري]

First of all, I am not justifying the NATO occupation.

Indeed however you're equating pillaging invaders to freedom fighters..

best,

[TG123]

Indeed however you're equating pillaging invaders to freedom fighters..

best,

They weren't freedom fighters to the 2,000 innocent men, women and children slaughtered at Mazar-e-Sharif. It is sad that their lives mean nothing to you.

[جوري]

They weren't freedom fighters to the 2,000 innocent men, women and children slaughtered at Mazar-e-Sharif. It is sad that their lives mean nothing to you.

Maybe you should brush up on your reading and find out which pigs are actually responsible for the massacre and what exactly happened and during the holy month of fast!
حقيقة ما حدث في سجن مزار الشريف

مقاتل شمالي يأخذ حذاء احد القتلى
كتب: مصطفى عبد الجواد
تحول شهر رمضان إلي مذابح وحشية وجرائم إبادة جماعية في أفغانستان بدلا من أن يكون فترة هدنة ووقفا للعمليات العسكرية .
فقد أخذت الولايات المتحدة تنفذ مسلسل الإبادة ضد طالبان وحلفائها من الأفغان العرب والشيشانيين والباكستانيين ، وأعلنت صراحة أنها لا تريد أسرى ، وان هدفها هو سحق المقاتلين الأجانب الموالين لطالبان ، على حد تعبير كوندوليزا رايس مستشارة الأمن القومي الأمريكي .
ففي مجزرة أعادت للأذهان المذابح التي ارتكبتها القوات الأمريكية ضد الشعب الفيتنامي ، قصفت المقاتلات الأمريكية تدعمها على الأرض عناصر من القوات الخاصة البريطانية والأمريكية وعشرات الدبابات وقطع المدافع التابعة لقوات تحالف الشمال سجن مدينة مزار الشريف ، حيث كانت قوات التحالف تحتجز المئات من أسرى حركة طالبان خاصة الأجانب منهم ، واستمر قصف السجن و هو قلعة حصينة لمدة ثلاث أيام ، وليسقط أكثر من 700 قتيل ولتذهب كل دعاوى حقوق الإنسان إلي الجحيم.
ووصف تقرير لوكالة الأنباء الفرنسية ساحة قلعة جانجي بعد انتهاء المذبحة بأنها " أشبه بتخيلات نهاية العالم " ، حيث " تعج الساحة بجيف خيول مبقورة البطون يغطيها الغبار ، تختلط بأشلاء جثث أسرى من المقاتلين الأجانب الموالين لطالبان ، في حين تعبر دبابة لقوات تحالف الشمال فوق الجثث ممعنة في سحقها ".
وينقل التقرير صورة لما تبقي من أنقاض القلعة ، التي أحالها القصف الأمريكي القلعة إلى قطعة من الجحيم ، وكيف " تحولت عربات وسيارات جيب وشاحنات إلى هياكل معدنية متفحمة ، وقطعت أشجار الصنوبر الضخمة بفعل القنابل ، وتهدمت بيوت من الطوب بعدما اخترقتها القذائف الصاروخية ، واكتست الأرض بشظايا وأجزاء القنابل والقذائف والصواريخ المبعثرة بين الجثث والرؤوس المسحوقة والأطراف المبتورة " .
وأشارت الوكالة إلى إن مقاتلي تحالف الشمال يخشون حتى الآن من الاقتراب من مخابئ القلعة الحصينة حيث تظهر جثث تحت الأنقاض . ويعلل الجنرال عبد الرشيد دوستم ، الذي شاركت قواته في المذبحة ، ذلك بأنه " قد يكون بعضهم ما زال مختبئا تحت الأنقاض أو يتظاهر بأنه ميت. وقد تكون هناك - أيضا - جثثا مفخخة بالقنابل ".
وكانت صحيفة النيويورك تايمز قد أشارت إلى أن المقاتلات اِلأمريكية قامت بقصف السجن الذي تم فيه احتجاز المئات من مقاتلي طالبان الأجانب في إقليم قندوز ، الذين استسلموا لقوات التحالف ، وذلك بزعم إنهاء تمرد هؤلاء الأسرى .
وأوضحت الصحيفة أن القوات الخاصة الأمريكية طالبت باستخدام الغارات الجوية لقصف ما زعم أنه تمرد وقال مسئول عسكري أمريكي أن طائرات نفاثة ومقاتلات أي سي 130 وطائرات هليكوبتر " بلاك هوك " شاركت في الغارات .
ووصفت صفت صحيفة " لوفيجارو " الفرنسية مشاهد العنف الذي استخدم لقمع تمرد الأسرى في قلعة جانغي بأنها " تشبه مشاهد الرعب يوم القيامة".
ونقلت الصحيفة مشاهد " جثث المقاتلين الأجانب وهي مقطوعة الرؤوس ومبتورة الأوصال تحت عجلات الدبابات التي تهرسها بعجلاتها "، كما شبهت قلعة جانغي بعد انتهاء القتال بـ" ارض قتال تسودها الفوضى الكاملة وتنتشر عليها الجثث المتفحمة بفعل الصواريخ الأمريكية ".
جثث ضحايا المذبحة

وقالت الصحيفة الفرنسية انه من "الصعب الوصول إلى الجهة الجنوبية للقلعة حيث ظل أخر الأسرى يقاومون حتى النهاية ، بسبب العفونة وتراكم الأنقاض ".
وأما صحيفة " ليبراسيون " الفرنسية فقد طالبت بإجراء تحقيق دولي ‏لمعرفة الأسباب التي أدت إلى قتل مئات الأسرى من المقاتلين الأجانب في قلعة ‏جانغي بعد أن استسلموا .
ووصفت الصحيفة عملية قتل الأسرى الأجانب بأنها "مأساة ‏وحمام دم" . وتساءلت عن مصير الآلاف من المقاتلين الأجانب من أنصار أسامة بن لادن في صفوف حركة طالبان ، محذرة من إن الاستمرار في ‏قتلهم من شأنه أن يثير مشاعر الغضب في العالم الإسلامي ويؤجج حقد المسلمين ‏ضد العالم الغربي.
وذكرت الصحيفة الفرنسية أن " حمام الدم " الذي تعرض له المقاتلون الأجانب في قلعة جانغي يؤكد من جديد خرافة ما تسمى " بالحرب النظيفة" ، ‏مطالبة " الدول الديمقراطية المشاركة في الحرب الجارية في أفغانستان تطبيق ‏الحد الأدنى للاتفاقيات الدولية بشأن معاملة الأسرى ".
وطالبت ليبراسيون الدول المشاركة في التحالف الدولي ضد " الإرهاب " بإقناع قوات التحالف الشمالي المناهض لحركة طالبان بقبول تواجد بعثة دولية في أفغانستان لضبط الأوضاع هناك".
وأما حركة طالبان التي التزمت الصمت لعدة أيام تجاه استسلام قواتها في قندوز وما أعقبه من مجازر في سجن مزار الشريف ، فقد كشفت في بيان بثته عبر البريد الإلكتروني عن قيامها بتنظيم عملية انسحاب منظم للجانب الأكبر من قواتها في قندوز ، واما من تبقى من الجرحى والمرضى ومن تطوعوا لحمايتهم وتأمين القوات المنسحبة ، فقد قاتلوا حتى نفذت ذخيرتهم ، ثم فاوضوا على الاستسلام ، " وهم قد تعاهدوا وتعاقدوا على الموت جميعاً عند وجود أول فرصة لذلك " .
وقدر البيان عدد من تبقى للدفاع عن قندوز بقرابة 600 شخصا : عدد الباكستانيين منهم 210 ، والأوزبك 90 ، ومن الأفغان العرب 13 شخصا .
وأشار البيان إلى إن جنود الحركة الذين نقلوا إلى مزار شريف في قلعة جانغي استطاعوا الاستيلاء على مخزن للأسلحة في القلعة مستخدمين قنابل يدوية أخفوها معهم وتحصنوا في القلعة .
جثث القتلى متناثرة على الارض

وذكر بيان طالبان إن جنودها استطاعوا خلال التمرد " قتل اكثر من 140 جندياً من التحالف وخمسة من قياداتهم ، كما قتلوا أكثر من 35 جنديا ما بين أمريكي وبريطاني " . واعتبرت طالبان أن مقتل ذلك العدد من الأمريكيين والبريطانيين كان وراء قيام الأمريكيين بـ " إطلاق العنان لقاذفاتهم بدك القلعة على من فيها حتى قتلوا أيضاً30 جندياً من قوات دوستم كانت قريبة من القلعة " .
‏وكانت منظمة العفو الدولية قد طالبت بإجراء تحقيق عاجل في المذابح التي حدثت في مزار الشريف ، وشددت المنظمة على انه يجب " إصدار توصيات عاجلة لضمان ألا تؤدي حالات استسلام واحتجاز رهائن أخرى إلى اضطرابات مماثلة وخسائر في الأرواح " .
وأشارت صحيفة " النيويورك تايمز " الأمريكية إلى إن جثث أسرى طالبان مازالت ملقاة على الأرض في مختلف أرجاء قلعة جانجي . ووصفت الصحيفة مشهد جثث ستة من الأسرى قتلوا وأيديهم مقيدة من الخلف.
وذكرت الصحيفة انه كانت هناك على الأقل 150 جثة ملقاة في الساحة الداخلية للقلعة الضخمة ، فيما كان هناك المزيد من القتلى تحت أنقاض المطابخ التي تعرضت للقصف وداخل الأدوار التحتية من قاعات الدروس.
ونقلت النيويورك تايمز عن مقاتلين في تحالف الشمال أن السبب وراء اندلاع الانتفاضة هو وجود أمريكيين لاستجواب الأسرى.
دوستم اعترف بتكبد خسائر فادحة في التمرد

وكانت وكالة الاستخبارات المركزية الأمريكية قد اعترفت بأن ضابطا بالوكالة يدعى جوني مايكل قد قتل خلال التمرد ، كما اعترفت بريطانيا بإصابة خمسة من جنود القوات الخاصة التابعة لها خلال المعارك التي وقعت بالقلعة .
ونقلت الصحيفة الأمريكية عن أحد جنود التحالف قوله " لم تكن هناك طريقة لجعلهم يستسلمون. وإذا تمكنا من إقناعهم بالاستسلام، كان من الممكن أن يبدءوا ذلك مرة أخرى " .
وكان " اليكس بيري " مراسل مجلة " تايم " الأمريكية ، والذي كان على مسافة بضع مئات الأمتار من قلعة كلجانغي القديمة في مزار الشريف حين بدأ التمرد قد روى تفاصيل المذبحة ، مشيرا إلى إن حركة التمرد اندلعت بعد أن حاول صحفي بريطاني توجيه أسئلة إلى أسري من طالبان في حضور عدد من رجال تحالف الشمال مما أثار غضبهم .
وتابع بيري " كان هناك بعض الحراس من تحالف الشمال، وكانوا الوحيدين الذين يحملون أسلحة. غير أن مقاتلي طالبان كان يمكنهم التغلب لأن عددهم كان كبيرا . كان الأمر مزريا حقا. ثم شاهدنا العديد من جنود تحالف الشمال يفرون، بعضهم راميا أسلحته أرضا".
صورة جوية توضح القصف الامريكي للسجن

ونفت طالبان ما تردد عن وجود 20 آلف من قواتها في قندوز وعدة آلاف من العرب الموالين لها ، وأشار بيان الحركة إلى إن مقاتليها في قندوز كانوا لا يتعدوا 2600 مقاتل توجهوا إليها بعد الانسحاب من مزار الشريف ، قتل منهم 86 شخصا خلال القصف الأمريكي الذي دك المدينة لأكثر من أسبوع ، وانسحب الباقون صوب الجنوب حيث معقل الحركة في قندهار والولايات المجاورة لها .


http://167.206.168.197/mohe

http://www.sulayyil.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1739

please don't pretend to care I find that very Tartuffey especially when the truth is a far cry from what you propose.. use google translate and do a little research before you write using original sources not your media wh0res!

best,

[جوري]

and more:

غربية 07/12/2001 إسلام آباد ـ محمود عبد السلام رغم الموافقة التي أبداها التحالف الشمالي للسماح لمنظمة العفو الدولية بالتحقيق في المجزرة الجماعية التي تعرض إليها أكثر من 600 من الأسرى الأجانب في " قلعة جانغي " قرب مزار الشريف وبين..

أرسل لصديق طباعة

قراءة : 764 | طباعة : 52 | إرسال لصديق : 0 | عدد المقيمين : 0

رغم الموافقة التي أبداها التحالف الشمالي للسماح لمنظمة العفو الدولية بالتحقيق في المجزرة الجماعية التي تعرض إليها أكثر من 600 من الأسرى الأجانب في " قلعة جانغي " قرب مزار الشريف وبين قوسين بشكل عاجل حسب وصفهم بغض النظر عن حقائق تنفيذ ذلك إلاّ أن الغموض والتعتيم سيظل يلف لفترة ليست قصيرة هذه المأساة الدموية التي حولت شهر رمضان الكريم على الأسرى إلى شهر دم وحرق ، وأحالتهم إلى أضاح رمضانية ، لا سيما وهي سلسلة في حلقة طويلة رفعت لواءها الولايات المتحدة الأمريكية بعد أن صرح وزير الدفاع الأميركي " دونالد رامسفيلد " ومستشارة الأمن القومي الأمريكية " كوندوليزا رايس " بأنهم لا يريدون الأسرى على غرار سيناريو معاملة الفيتناميين كإشارة جلية تصار إلى سحق عناصر طالبان الأفغان والعرب والباكستانيين الأفغان دون مساءلات قانونية مستقبلية ، كون الحقيقة هي الضحية الأولى في الحروب المسعورة فكيف إذا سعى البعض إلى قتلها نتيجة الحرب الموجهة .

ففي الوقت الذي يطالب فيه الأمين العام لمنظمة المؤتمر الإسلامي " عبد الواحد بلقزيز " الأمم المتحدة إلى إجراء تحقيق في مذبحة القلعة يبدي وزير الدفاع الأميركي رامسفيلد استغرابه الشديد من المطالبة بتحقيق في شأن هذه المجزرة ، كما تناقلت الصحف الباكستانية المحلية وعلى رأسها جريدة " جنغ " أن الرئيس الباكستاني الجنرال برويز مشرف حظر على الأجهزة الحكومية إثارة ملف الأسرى الباكستانيين الذين قضوا في منطقة مزار الشريف حيث صرح بقوله :" إن هؤلاء المتطوعين ذهبوا إلى أفغانستان ليقتلوا و قد قتلوا هناك " وهو ما جعل والد أحد القتلى في تلك المذبحة عبد الرشيد سوات إلى أن يقول :" لم أبك لفقدان ولدي في الجهاد ، ولكنني بكيت لقول رئيس باكستاني مسؤول عن كل فرد في هذا البلد المسلم مهماكانت تصرفاته وأفكاره

ويعتقد مراقبون باكستانيون أن الحرب الأفغانية لم تزل مليئة بالألغاز والأحاجي والمفاجآت ، فبعد أن أسكتت الولايات المتحدة الأمريكية جميع الأصوات الإعلامية التي تصنف لصالح طالبان عن طريق حلفائها في المنطقة بذريعة أن ذلك الإعلام سيضر بعلاقاتها مع أميركا التي باتت تمثل الحليف الاستراتيجي لكل من وقف بصف التحالف الذي كان الخيار الوحيد ، في حين سمحت بالمقابل بإقامة مركز إعلامي للتحالف الدولي و كأن الأخير يفتقر إلى منبر إعلامي يدافع من خلاله عن نفسه في وجه ما وصفوه بالتزييف الإعلامي الطالباني الذي فقد كل شيء من إذاعة وصحف وصوت ومقابلات مؤتمرات ليتحدث عن مواقف حركته من التطورات المتلاحقة ، لا سيما وهو الطرف الثاني الأساسي في هذه الحرب الضروس .

فيما يتهم البعض من الباكستانيين خاصة المنتمين منهم إلى الجماعات الدينية الأمم المتحدة بالتورط غير المباشر في مذبحة مزار الشريف " التي ستظل نقطة سوداء في تاريخ منفذيها بشكل خاص ، وفي تاريخ البشرية بشكل عام على مدى السنين " .
وحسب افتتاحية صحيفة جنك الباكستانية ، فقد رفضت الأمم المتحدة استسلام الأسرى لها بعد أن تذرع المبعوث الأممي إلى أفغانستان " الأخضر الإبراهيمي " بأن المنظمة ليست لديها الوسائل في داخل أفغانستان لرعاية هذا العدد من الأسرى الذين ظنوا أن الأمم المتحدة ربما تكون ملاذاً من اليانكي الأميركي الهائجة المائجة منذ أحداث سبتمبر الماضي في نيويورك و واشنطن .
وبينما تتراوح الروايات في تحديد المسؤول المباشر عن تنفيذ المجزرة لكن المحللين يقولون تبقى الولايات المتحدة الأميركية هي المسؤول الأول والأخير ما دامت رفعت راية تحرير أفغانستان من طالبان حسب الكاتب .

وقد تسنى لهذا الكاتب الذي علق على المذبحة في الصحيفة أن يزور قلعة جانغي في العام 1992 حيث يقول : " بعد نقل الأسرى إليها استغربت أشد الاستغراب لهذه الخطوة الغريبة إلى قلعة تعد مركزاً حساساً للقيادة العسكرية لعبد الرشيد دوستم ،كما تخزن فيها كل الذخائر والعتاد فلماذا اختيرت هذه القلعة دون غيرها لتكون معقلاً لأكثر من ستمائة أسير أجنبي ؟
الظاهر أن بعدها عن المدينة بعشرة كيلومترات ، وعدم وجود عمران حولها سيخول الطائرات الأميركية أن تدك ما تشاء دون أن تلحق الأضرار بالمباني المجاورة ، ودون أن يعرف السكان المحليون أو يطلعوا على حقيقة ما جرى ويجري " حسب قوله .

ولعل ما صرح به وزير الدفاع الأميركي دونالد رامسفيلد قبل وقوع مقاتلي طالبان الأجانب في الأسر ، يزيد من شكوك تورط القوات الأميركية في المذبحة حين قال بأنه لا يفضل الأسرى وعززت شهادات بعض الصحفيين الأجانب رغم أنهم من المخالفين للأسرى في الأفكار والعقائد ، وذلك حين نقل مراسل التايمز اللندنية الذي كان موجودا حينها في مزار الشريف بأن كثيراً من الأسرى ماتوا وحرقوا وهم موثوقو الأيدي إلى الخلف ونقل بعض شهود عيان عن بعض قادة طالبان الذين كانوا في مدينة " قندوز " بأن الأسرى لو كان في نيتهم التمرد لما استسلموا منذ البداية ، ولقاتلوا في قندوز قبل الاستسلام ؛ لكن المجزرة ضربت بها أميركا عصافير عدة وبحجر واحدة حين أروت عطش الروس من دماء الشباب الشيشاني وأروت كذلك عطش الهند التي عبرت - غير مرة - عن انزعاجها من تدريب وقتال الشباب الكشميري في صفوف طالبان ، وهو ما سيمنحهم تجربة ودفعة للقتال في كشمير الخاضعة للسيادة الهندية .

رغم أن معلومات موثقة نقلت عن مطلعين أن تصفيات جسدية تمت لبعض العناصر التي انضمت لاحقاً لحركة طالبان لا سيما الباكستانيين منهم الذين لم يعول عليهم في تحصيل معلومات تخص القاعدة ، الأمر الذي دفع باقي المعتقلين إلى إعلان حالة السخط والفوضى والتمرد بسبب هذه التصفيات .

وأفاد قادمون من قندوز في شمال أفغانستان لـ " الشبكة الإسلامية " بأن مجزرة مزار الشريف لا تساوي الكثير مقارنة بالمجازرالتي ارتكبت بحق المئات وربما الآلاف من المحاصرين الأفغان والأجانب في تلك المدينة والتي ستظل حبيسة التعتيم في غياب الأعين التي قد تنصف هذه الحقائق ، خاصة وقالت شهادات القادمين من تلك المنطقة بأن القوات البريطانية والأميركية قد طوقت كل الطرق الخارجة من المدينة لتقتل كل من يغادرها من الطالبان الأفغان والأجانب .

وأظهر ناشطون حقوقيون في باكستان سخريتهم من مناشدة منظمة العفو الدولية للتحالفين الدولي و الشمالي بفتح تحقيق في المجزرة التي هم مرتكبوها وفاعلوها حسب التصريحات التي أطلقوها في وسائل الإعلام ، باعتبارهم أن الجاني لن يكون هو القاضي العادل في المجزرة .

ومن ضمن الأحاجي والألغاز في سلسلة الحرب الأميركية والبريطانية على أفغانستان ما يخشاه الأفغان من مرض حرب أفغانستان كما كان عليه الأمر في " مرض حرب الخليج " فالكثير يعتقد بأن أميركا ألقت في أفغانستان بأطنان من اليورانيوم المستنفذ من خلال القنابل التي كانت تزن الواحدة منها أكثر من سبعة أطنان لا سيما في الفترة الأخيرة ، بالإضافة إلى القنابل العنقودية والانشطارية المحرمة دولياً والتي سمع بها العالم والتي لم يسمع بها بعد ، الأمر الذي حول أفغانستان إلى فأر مخبري قد تم اختبار جميع القاذفات وجميع القنابل .

ولكن المستغرب والمستهجن إلى حد بعيد هو الصمت العربي والإسلامي المطبق إزاء هذه المذبحة التي خرقت جميع قوانين البشرية بما فيها بنود اتفاقية " جنيف " الموقعة في العام 1949 في معاملة الأسرى ، وكأن القتلى فيها من الكوكب الآخر وليس من جنس البشر الأرضيين الذين تنطبق عليهم اتفاقية جنيف ، إذ لم تتقدم أي دولة عربية لتعرف ما إذا كان هناك قتلى كانوا في يوم من الأيام من جنسيتها ليجدوا في بلادهم مترين بمتر من الأرض بعد أن قضوا بغض النظر عن توجهاتهم ودوافعهم السياسية أو غيرها ، والتي دفعتهم إلى ذلك للاعتبارات الإنسانية فقط ، فضلاً أن تكون قد طالبت منذ البداية بتسلمهم لمحاكمتهم أو تسلم جثثهم بعد تصفيتهم ، فهل الشخصية العربية التي قيل عنها على مر عصور أصيلة لهذا الحد من الرخص ؟!!

http://english.islamweb.net/media/in...VoteResult=yes

Thanks for reminding me of how vile and disgusting your interests are in the region!

best,

[TG123]

Maybe you should brush up on your reading and find out which pigs are actually responsible for the massacre and what exactly happened and during the holy month of fast!
حقيقة ما حدث في سجن مزار الشريف

مقاتل شمالي يأخذ حذاء احد القتلى
كتب: مصطفى عبد الجواد
تحول شهر رمضان إلي مذابح وحشية وجرائم إبادة جماعية في أفغانستان بدلا من أن يكون فترة هدنة ووقفا للعمليات العسكرية .
فقد أخذت الولايات المتحدة تنفذ مسلسل الإبادة ضد طالبان وحلفائها من الأفغان العرب والشيشانيين والباكستانيين ، وأعلنت صراحة أنها لا تريد أسرى ، وان هدفها هو سحق المقاتلين الأجانب الموالين لطالبان ، على حد تعبير كوندوليزا رايس مستشارة الأمن القومي الأمريكي .
ففي مجزرة أعادت للأذهان المذابح التي ارتكبتها القوات الأمريكية ضد الشعب الفيتنامي ، قصفت المقاتلات الأمريكية تدعمها على الأرض عناصر من القوات الخاصة البريطانية والأمريكية وعشرات الدبابات وقطع المدافع التابعة لقوات تحالف الشمال سجن مدينة مزار الشريف ، حيث كانت قوات التحالف تحتجز المئات من أسرى حركة طالبان خاصة الأجانب منهم ، واستمر قصف السجن و هو قلعة حصينة لمدة ثلاث أيام ، وليسقط أكثر من 700 قتيل ولتذهب كل دعاوى حقوق الإنسان إلي الجحيم.
ووصف تقرير لوكالة الأنباء الفرنسية ساحة قلعة جانجي بعد انتهاء المذبحة بأنها " أشبه بتخيلات نهاية العالم " ، حيث " تعج الساحة بجيف خيول مبقورة البطون يغطيها الغبار ، تختلط بأشلاء جثث أسرى من المقاتلين الأجانب الموالين لطالبان ، في حين تعبر دبابة لقوات تحالف الشمال فوق الجثث ممعنة في سحقها ".
وينقل التقرير صورة لما تبقي من أنقاض القلعة ، التي أحالها القصف الأمريكي القلعة إلى قطعة من الجحيم ، وكيف " تحولت عربات وسيارات جيب وشاحنات إلى هياكل معدنية متفحمة ، وقطعت أشجار الصنوبر الضخمة بفعل القنابل ، وتهدمت بيوت من الطوب بعدما اخترقتها القذائف الصاروخية ، واكتست الأرض بشظايا وأجزاء القنابل والقذائف والصواريخ المبعثرة بين الجثث والرؤوس المسحوقة والأطراف المبتورة " .
وأشارت الوكالة إلى إن مقاتلي تحالف الشمال يخشون حتى الآن من الاقتراب من مخابئ القلعة الحصينة حيث تظهر جثث تحت الأنقاض . ويعلل الجنرال عبد الرشيد دوستم ، الذي شاركت قواته في المذبحة ، ذلك بأنه " قد يكون بعضهم ما زال مختبئا تحت الأنقاض أو يتظاهر بأنه ميت. وقد تكون هناك - أيضا - جثثا مفخخة بالقنابل ".
وكانت صحيفة النيويورك تايمز قد أشارت إلى أن المقاتلات اِلأمريكية قامت بقصف السجن الذي تم فيه احتجاز المئات من مقاتلي طالبان الأجانب في إقليم قندوز ، الذين استسلموا لقوات التحالف ، وذلك بزعم إنهاء تمرد هؤلاء الأسرى .
وأوضحت الصحيفة أن القوات الخاصة الأمريكية طالبت باستخدام الغارات الجوية لقصف ما زعم أنه تمرد وقال مسئول عسكري أمريكي أن طائرات نفاثة ومقاتلات أي سي 130 وطائرات هليكوبتر " بلاك هوك " شاركت في الغارات .
ووصفت صفت صحيفة " لوفيجارو " الفرنسية مشاهد العنف الذي استخدم لقمع تمرد الأسرى في قلعة جانغي بأنها " تشبه مشاهد الرعب يوم القيامة".
ونقلت الصحيفة مشاهد " جثث المقاتلين الأجانب وهي مقطوعة الرؤوس ومبتورة الأوصال تحت عجلات الدبابات التي تهرسها بعجلاتها "، كما شبهت قلعة جانغي بعد انتهاء القتال بـ" ارض قتال تسودها الفوضى الكاملة وتنتشر عليها الجثث المتفحمة بفعل الصواريخ الأمريكية ".
جثث ضحايا المذبحة

وقالت الصحيفة الفرنسية انه من "الصعب الوصول إلى الجهة الجنوبية للقلعة حيث ظل أخر الأسرى يقاومون حتى النهاية ، بسبب العفونة وتراكم الأنقاض ".
وأما صحيفة " ليبراسيون " الفرنسية فقد طالبت بإجراء تحقيق دولي ‏لمعرفة الأسباب التي أدت إلى قتل مئات الأسرى من المقاتلين الأجانب في قلعة ‏جانغي بعد أن استسلموا .
ووصفت الصحيفة عملية قتل الأسرى الأجانب بأنها "مأساة ‏وحمام دم" . وتساءلت عن مصير الآلاف من المقاتلين الأجانب من أنصار أسامة بن لادن في صفوف حركة طالبان ، محذرة من إن الاستمرار في ‏قتلهم من شأنه أن يثير مشاعر الغضب في العالم الإسلامي ويؤجج حقد المسلمين ‏ضد العالم الغربي.
وذكرت الصحيفة الفرنسية أن " حمام الدم " الذي تعرض له المقاتلون الأجانب في قلعة جانغي يؤكد من جديد خرافة ما تسمى " بالحرب النظيفة" ، ‏مطالبة " الدول الديمقراطية المشاركة في الحرب الجارية في أفغانستان تطبيق ‏الحد الأدنى للاتفاقيات الدولية بشأن معاملة الأسرى ".
وطالبت ليبراسيون الدول المشاركة في التحالف الدولي ضد " الإرهاب " بإقناع قوات التحالف الشمالي المناهض لحركة طالبان بقبول تواجد بعثة دولية في أفغانستان لضبط الأوضاع هناك".
وأما حركة طالبان التي التزمت الصمت لعدة أيام تجاه استسلام قواتها في قندوز وما أعقبه من مجازر في سجن مزار الشريف ، فقد كشفت في بيان بثته عبر البريد الإلكتروني عن قيامها بتنظيم عملية انسحاب منظم للجانب الأكبر من قواتها في قندوز ، واما من تبقى من الجرحى والمرضى ومن تطوعوا لحمايتهم وتأمين القوات المنسحبة ، فقد قاتلوا حتى نفذت ذخيرتهم ، ثم فاوضوا على الاستسلام ، " وهم قد تعاهدوا وتعاقدوا على الموت جميعاً عند وجود أول فرصة لذلك " .
وقدر البيان عدد من تبقى للدفاع عن قندوز بقرابة 600 شخصا : عدد الباكستانيين منهم 210 ، والأوزبك 90 ، ومن الأفغان العرب 13 شخصا .
وأشار البيان إلى إن جنود الحركة الذين نقلوا إلى مزار شريف في قلعة جانغي استطاعوا الاستيلاء على مخزن للأسلحة في القلعة مستخدمين قنابل يدوية أخفوها معهم وتحصنوا في القلعة .
جثث القتلى متناثرة على الارض

وذكر بيان طالبان إن جنودها استطاعوا خلال التمرد " قتل اكثر من 140 جندياً من التحالف وخمسة من قياداتهم ، كما قتلوا أكثر من 35 جنديا ما بين أمريكي وبريطاني " . واعتبرت طالبان أن مقتل ذلك العدد من الأمريكيين والبريطانيين كان وراء قيام الأمريكيين بـ " إطلاق العنان لقاذفاتهم بدك القلعة على من فيها حتى قتلوا أيضاً30 جندياً من قوات دوستم كانت قريبة من القلعة " .
‏وكانت منظمة العفو الدولية قد طالبت بإجراء تحقيق عاجل في المذابح التي حدثت في مزار الشريف ، وشددت المنظمة على انه يجب " إصدار توصيات عاجلة لضمان ألا تؤدي حالات استسلام واحتجاز رهائن أخرى إلى اضطرابات مماثلة وخسائر في الأرواح " .
وأشارت صحيفة " النيويورك تايمز " الأمريكية إلى إن جثث أسرى طالبان مازالت ملقاة على الأرض في مختلف أرجاء قلعة جانجي . ووصفت الصحيفة مشهد جثث ستة من الأسرى قتلوا وأيديهم مقيدة من الخلف.
وذكرت الصحيفة انه كانت هناك على الأقل 150 جثة ملقاة في الساحة الداخلية للقلعة الضخمة ، فيما كان هناك المزيد من القتلى تحت أنقاض المطابخ التي تعرضت للقصف وداخل الأدوار التحتية من قاعات الدروس.
ونقلت النيويورك تايمز عن مقاتلين في تحالف الشمال أن السبب وراء اندلاع الانتفاضة هو وجود أمريكيين لاستجواب الأسرى.
دوستم اعترف بتكبد خسائر فادحة في التمرد

وكانت وكالة الاستخبارات المركزية الأمريكية قد اعترفت بأن ضابطا بالوكالة يدعى جوني مايكل قد قتل خلال التمرد ، كما اعترفت بريطانيا بإصابة خمسة من جنود القوات الخاصة التابعة لها خلال المعارك التي وقعت بالقلعة .
ونقلت الصحيفة الأمريكية عن أحد جنود التحالف قوله " لم تكن هناك طريقة لجعلهم يستسلمون. وإذا تمكنا من إقناعهم بالاستسلام، كان من الممكن أن يبدءوا ذلك مرة أخرى " .
وكان " اليكس بيري " مراسل مجلة " تايم " الأمريكية ، والذي كان على مسافة بضع مئات الأمتار من قلعة كلجانغي القديمة في مزار الشريف حين بدأ التمرد قد روى تفاصيل المذبحة ، مشيرا إلى إن حركة التمرد اندلعت بعد أن حاول صحفي بريطاني توجيه أسئلة إلى أسري من طالبان في حضور عدد من رجال تحالف الشمال مما أثار غضبهم .
وتابع بيري " كان هناك بعض الحراس من تحالف الشمال، وكانوا الوحيدين الذين يحملون أسلحة. غير أن مقاتلي طالبان كان يمكنهم التغلب لأن عددهم كان كبيرا . كان الأمر مزريا حقا. ثم شاهدنا العديد من جنود تحالف الشمال يفرون، بعضهم راميا أسلحته أرضا".
صورة جوية توضح القصف الامريكي للسجن

ونفت طالبان ما تردد عن وجود 20 آلف من قواتها في قندوز وعدة آلاف من العرب الموالين لها ، وأشار بيان الحركة إلى إن مقاتليها في قندوز كانوا لا يتعدوا 2600 مقاتل توجهوا إليها بعد الانسحاب من مزار الشريف ، قتل منهم 86 شخصا خلال القصف الأمريكي الذي دك المدينة لأكثر من أسبوع ، وانسحب الباقون صوب الجنوب حيث معقل الحركة في قندهار والولايات المجاورة لها .



please don't pretend to care I find that very Tartuffey especially when the truth is a far cry from what you propose.. use google translate and do a little research before you write using original sources not your media wh0res!

best,

If you want me to read the sources, please translate into English. I will be glad to read them then.

The massacre at Mazar e Sharif was documented by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, human rights groups that are also outspoken against US and NATO war crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Israeli war crimes in Palestine. It is also documented by RAWA. If you think they are 'media *****s' or are in any way sympathetic to the West, your view is a skewed and perverted as that of people who get their information from FOX.

As a Christian, my God tells me to see Him in the hungry, the sick, and the oppressed; and then to do something about it. Whether you see that as 'pretending to care' or not really makes no difference to me.

[جوري]

The massacre at Mazar e Sharif was documented by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International,

The U.S can document the truth of its choosing, in fact the first sites that come up when google researched is stuff like Isl***watch etc.
so spare me the alligator tears!

best,

[TG123]

The U.S can document the truth of its choosing, in fact the first sites that come up when google researched is stuff like Isl***watch etc.
so spare me the alligator tears!
best,

LOL you think RAWA, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch are pro-US?

[جوري]

LOL you think RAWA, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch are pro-US?

If you're not going to read the articles and it is an easy task using google translate, then at least have the common courtesy not to meander a thread of a massacre of civilians and women nonetheless who were killed by your forces!

It is amongst other things so incredibly disgusting and callous!

best,

[TG123]

If you're not going to read the articles and it is an easy task using google translate, then at least have the common courtesy not to meander a thread of a massacre of civilians and women nonetheless who were killed by your forces!

It is amongst other things so incredibly disgusting and callous!

best,

They were killed by the Taleban, your so-called "freedom fighters". I'm not the one who posted the source. You were. Google translate it and post it on here, and I will gladly read it.

The 8 Afghan women killed in the NATO air raid were murdered by NATO. The 2,000 Hazara civilians at Mazar-e-Sharif were murdered by the Taleban. I condemn both crimes, and am disgusted by the perpetrators. You condemn one band of killers while hypocritically praising another.

Does Islam not condemn hypocrisy? I know Jesus did.

[جوري]

They were killed by the Taleban, your so-called "freedom fighters". I'm not the one who posted the source. You were. Google translate it and post it on here, and I will gladly read it.

The 8 Afghan women killed in the NATO air raid were murdered by NATO. The 2,000 Hazara civilians at Mazar-e-Sharif were murdered by the Taleban. I condemn both crimes, and am disgusted by the perpetrators. You condemn one band of killers while hypocritically praising another.

Does Islam not condemn hypocrisy? I know Jesus did.

Both were killed by your kin or because of your kin. Yes hypocrites are indeed in the bottomest pits of hell along with mushriks!

best,

[Logikon]

Afghanistan has warlords who hate each other.

There have been a number of cases where they have given intentionally wrong informatiuon to the US who have then gone and bombed the place.


This might posdsibly have happened here.

.
.

[TG123]

Both were killed by your kin or because of your kin. Yes hypocrites are indeed in the bottomest pits of hell along with mushriks!

best,

What do you mean by 'my kin'?

No one forced the Taleban to slaughter two thousand innocent people just because they were Hazara Shia. That is sick to even suggest that.

If you believe hypocrites are in the bottom layer of hell, maybe it's time for you to stop acting like one. Salaam.

[TG123]

Afghanistan has warlords who hate each other.

There have been a number of cases where they have given intentionally wrong informatiuon to the US who have then gone and bombed the place.


This might posdsibly have happened here.

.
.

Had NATO not been in Afghanistan, this would not have happened. The Taleban are warlords. So is the Karzai administration whom the West is supporting.

The Afghan people are suffering because of the stupidity, cruelty and greed of NATO, the Taleban, and the Afghan regime we are supporting.

[جوري]

The Afghan people are suffering because of the stupidity, cruelty and greed of NATO

That and Karazi are the only part of your statement that's truthful:

Officials from the United Nations and other organisations suggested that it may have been a massacre by Northern Alliance troops after they surrendered in the school moments before an American warplane dropped two, or four, 1000-pound bombs, resulting in the Taliban members scattering quickly to escape, and the Northern Alliance shooting them as they fled, resulting in an alleged 800 fatalities. Later reports suggested instead that the Northern Alliance had shelled the school, rather than an American warplane dropping bombs on it,^{[4][25][29][30][31]} but following the battle, United States Air Force Sgt. Stephen E. Tomat was awarded the Silver Star for calling in the air strike on six vehicles and a school.<sup>[8][32][33][34][35][36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Mazari_Sharif</sup>

[TG123]

I wasn't referring to what happened in 2001, I was referring to the massacre in 1998. Had you actually read my post, you would have noticed that.

[TG123]

In 2001, the Northern Alliance backed by the US murdered hundreds of prisoners and civilians when they took Mazar-e-Sharif from the Taleban. In 1998, the Taleban murdered 2,000 Hazara Shias when they took the city from other warlords.

[جوري]

I don't consider shias Muslim and I am pretty sure they had their reasons. I didn't look up what you posted and given your history so far I have no desire to.

best,

[TG123]

I don't consider shias Muslim and I am pretty sure they had their reasons. I didn't look up what you posted and given your history so far I have no desire to.

best,

Wow... talk about hypocrisy. You condemn NATO and the Northern Alliance (and rightly so) for killing innocent Afghan civilians, yet when you hear about the massacre of 2,000 Shia men, women and children by the Taleban... in your words "I am pretty sure they had their reasons". You won't even look at the link. I read the English one you posted.

You know what?... I don't care if you choose to behave this way and justify the deaths of innocent people, and then get angry at me for not supporting your view.

I will simply pray for you. May the light of Christ come into your life, and may you find salvation in Him, who loved you so much He spilled His blood for you on the cross.

[جوري]

I don't believe that such an event took place and if it took place (per your understanding) then I am sure they'd their reasons.
Your prayers mean nothing, they are worthless and meaningless. Anyone who doesn't kneel to God worships the devil, no one finds salvation with the devil!

best,

[TG123]

I don't believe that such an event took place and if it took place (per your understanding) then I am sure they'd their reasons.

Now you are denial. Like Serbs who claim there was no massacre at Srebrenica. Or Israelis who claim the Sabra and Shatila massacre was justified.

Your prayers mean nothing, they are worthless and meaningless. Anyone who doesn't kneel to God worships the devil, no one finds salvation with the devil!
best,

Jesus is God.

[جوري]

Jesus is God.

who was Jesus praying to in gethsemane the day before he committd suicide?

[sister herb]

Who is terrorist now? Muslims?

[sister herb]

Jesus is God.

Not even Christians think that Jesus is a god.

^o)

[Jedi_Mindset]

If you're not going to read the articles and it is an easy task using google translate, then at least have the common courtesy not to meander a thread of a massacre of civilians and women nonetheless who were killed by your forces!

It is amongst other things so incredibly disgusting and callous!

best,

Dont feed the troll. He is a paid shill..see how he acts.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus is God.

Not according to the old testament or the gospels.

[Jedi_Mindset]

I don't believe that such an event took place and if it took place (per your understanding) then I am sure they'd their reasons.
Your prayers mean nothing, they are worthless and meaningless. Anyone who doesn't kneel to God worships the devil, no one finds salvation with the devil!

best,

Well, mass killing is never permissisble in islam, wether zionists or other kufar, when they dont fight you and sit in their homes - dont kill them. we arent akin to them you know, we are much better. We dont go kill women and children (aside from some fools) out of frustration and to enjoy it.

This event never took place though, just another style-media propaganda infact it were the communist warlords who killed afghan muslims and massacred alot of villages.
The media saw their chance and potrayed as if the taliban did it. they do this often.


We would not like to be akin to those who kill sleeping civilians with bombs and shells - Ameer ibn khattab(Ra)

he said this because russia condemned him for a bombing, however these bombings were later to be admitted false flag attacks.

[TG123]

who was Jesus praying to in gethsemane the day before he committd suicide?

He was praying to God the Father. God exists as three persons- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus was God in human flesh. He prayed to the Father.

[TG123]

Not according to the old testament or the gospels.

The Gospels do indeed say that He is.

John 1:1-18

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 ( John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Secondly, although Jesus never said "I am God", He did say:

- That those who have seen Him have seen the Father
John 14:7-10
7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


- That He and the Father are one
John 10:29-30
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

- That He will judge the world
Matthew 25:31-49
The Final Judgment

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


- That Jesus commanded people to baptize others in the name of the Father, Himself, and the Holy Spirit. This points to the fact that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one God.

Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

- Several times in all of the Gospels, Jesus was worshiped by people. He never told them to stop worshiping Him.

There are numerous examples of this, one would be in Matthew 28:17
17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted


Did Muhammad ever say he and Allah are one? Did he say that those who have seen him have seen Allah? Did he say he is going to judge the world, and decide who will go to heaven and who will go to hell? Was he ever worshiped?

Was any other prophet, either in the Quran or Old Testament?

Who but God can be one with God? Who but God looks like God? Who but God will judge the world? Who but God can accept worship?

The Bible clearly shows that Jesus is God.

[TG123]

Well, mass killing is never permissisble in islam, wether zionists or other kufar, when they dont fight you and sit in their homes - dont kill them. we arent akin to them you know, we are much better. We dont go kill women and children (aside from some fools) out of frustration and to enjoy it.

This event never took place though, just another style-media propaganda infact it were the communist warlords who killed afghan muslims and massacred alot of villages.
The media saw their chance and potrayed as if the taliban did it. they do this often.


We would not like to be akin to those who kill sleeping civilians with bombs and shells - Ameer ibn khattab(Ra)

he said this because russia condemned him for a bombing, however these bombings were later to be admitted false flag attacks.

Show me proof that anyone other than the Taleban carried out the massacre in Mazar e Sharif in 1998.

[TG123]

Not even Christians think that Jesus is a god.

^o)

Of course we believe that.

[Jedi_Mindset]

Show me proof that anyone other than the Taleban carried out the massacre in Mazar e Sharif in 1998.

The army the taliban fought against consisted of communist warlords and mujahideen who betrayed and joined the US-pakistani backed northern alliance, communists often carry out scorched earth tactics in which they destroy everything and kill everyone when they pull back. these communist warlords were trained by soviet-elements.

I want to ask you the same, can you provide me proof that the taliban did this? And not media-based articles. You are really failing to provide evidence and aside from that the Afghan people know much better, and yes they are fuming angry against the evil invaders. the attack on camp bastion proved this, taliban is winning power. A matter of time before the US gets out.

Taliban havent got anything much against the shia's, the taliban itself consists of many sects however they are all destined and agreed to follow the real path - Ahlus sunnah wal jamaah

here a good book to read: http://kalamullah.com/Books/Life With The Taliban.pdf

[TG123]

The army the taliban fought against consisted of communist warlords and mujahideen who betrayed and joined the US-pakistani backed northern alliance, communists often carry out scorched earth tactics in which they destroy everything and kill everyone when they pull back. these communist warlords were trained by soviet-elements.

I want to ask you the same, can you provide me proof that the taliban did this? And not media-based articles.

Taliban havent got anything much against the shia's, the taliban itself consists of many sects however they are all destined and agreed to follow the real path - Ahlus sunnah wal jamaah

here a good book to read:

Hi Jedi Mindset,

Thanks for the Youtube link. I have to go to work now and may or may not have time to see it this evening, but I will watch it in the next two days and respond.

Whether we like it or not, all information on current events comes from some type of media. Any video, article etc produced or written by someone is a form of media, wouldn't you agree?

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International are human rights groups which are quite credible, and do not show any hesitation in reporting abuses carried out by the US or Israel or any other nation. They are often blasted by pro-US groups. They reported on this massacre, as well as on other abuses perpetrated by the Taleban. I am still new, so at this moment I cannot post links. When I can, I will do so.

The communist groups did carry out abuses in Afghanistan, as did pro-US groups. I am not defending either them or their puppetmasters in Moscow or Washington. But I am not defending the Taleban either. I will see the video. Take care.

[Predator]

The Bible clearly shows that Jesus is God.

It shows clearly that he isnt as he never said "I am god or Worship me".Show me one verse where he said that..In fact he said

a)"And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power isGIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." MATTHEW 28:18

(b) I can of mine own self DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge . . ."JOHN 5:30
(c) ". . . I by the FINGER OF GOD cast out devils . . ." LUKE 11:20
(d)My father is greater than I. John 14:28
(e)My father is greater than All. John 10:29
(f) HE WAS IGNORANT OF THE LAST HOUR
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not theangels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father." MARK 13:32
(g) HE WAS IGNORANT OF THE SEASONS:
"And seeing a fig tree afar of having leaves, he came if happily he might find any thing there on: and when he came to it, hefound nothing but leaves, FOR THE TIME OF FIGS WAS NOT YET." MARK 11:13

In this video Joshual Evans, a former Youth Minister, shares 10 reasons why Jesus can not be God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U...layer_embedded

[04:00]Reason #10 - God Can not be Born!
[05:05]Reason #09 - There is unequivocal textual evidence
[09:20]Reason #08 - No one has seen God!
[11:31]Reason #07 - This was the not belief of early Christians
[14:38]Reason #06 - Jesus Ate, Slept, and Prayed
[16:44]Reason #05 - Jesus claimed that God's Knowledge is greater than his
[20:10]Reason #04 - Jesus Explicitly states that he is not God
[22:50]Reason #03 - Son of God?
[29:29]Reason #02 - God does not change
[43:05]Reason #01 - God is the object of Worship!
[46:42]Conclusion

Of course we wont be suprised if you respond like most christians who respond like this

[جوري]

Well, mass killing is never permissisble in islam

I didn't say it was nor do I condone the killing of civilians- just wasn't in the mood to look this event up last night on the account of a migraine and him being a nuisance.

:w:

[جوري]

God exists as three persons

That's no God of monotheism nor Abrahamic faith then!
btw did you see the unearthed material I posted yesterday about said God taking a wife?
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...have-been.html

gets better and better doesn't it?

best,

[sister herb]

I know Jesus did.

You still think Jesus is God?

What is you religion?

^o)

[TG123]

It shows clearly that he isnt as he never said "I am god or Worship me".Show me one verse where he said that..

Did you not see my previous post? He said He and the Father are one. He said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. He said He will judge the nations.

Can you say the same about any prophet? Is Muhammad and Allah one? When people saw Muhammad, did they see Allah? Will Muhammad judge the world?

In fact he said

a)"And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power isGIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." MATTHEW 28:18

(b) I can of mine own self DO NOTHING: as I hear, I judge . . ."JOHN 5:30
(c) ". . . I by the FINGER OF GOD cast out devils . . ." LUKE 11:20
(d)My father is greater than I. John 14:28
(e)My father is greater than All. John 10:29
(f) HE WAS IGNORANT OF THE LAST HOUR
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not theangels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father." MARK 13:32
(g) HE WAS IGNORANT OF THE SEASONS:
"And seeing a fig tree afar of having leaves, he came if happily he might find any thing there on: and when he came to it, hefound nothing but leaves, FOR THE TIME OF FIGS WAS NOT YET." MARK 11:13

Jesus was both man and God. When He was speaking of not knowing, He was speaking of His human side. Jesus also made Himself voluntarily below the Father.

In this video Joshual Evans, a former Youth Minister, shares 10 reasons why Jesus can not be God.



[04:00]Reason #10 - God Can not be Born!
[05:05]Reason #09 - There is unequivocal textual evidence
[09:20]Reason #08 - No one has seen God!
[11:31]Reason #07 - This was the not belief of early Christians
[14:38]Reason #06 - Jesus Ate, Slept, and Prayed
[16:44]Reason #05 - Jesus claimed that God's Knowledge is greater than his
[20:10]Reason #04 - Jesus Explicitly states that he is not God
[22:50]Reason #03 - Son of God?
[29:29]Reason #02 - God does not change
[43:05]Reason #01 - God is the object of Worship!
[46:42]Conclusion

I'll watch it later perhaps. So far you have shown nothing from the Bible to back up your assertion.

Of course we wont be suprised if you respond like most christians who respond like this

Posting a picture of a monkey...wow... now that was compelling. Insulting people who disagree and comparing Christians who believe God is a Trinity to monkeys. How pathetic. No different from Islamophobes who portray Muslims as terrorists about to blow themselves up.

You share their intellectual level.

[TG123]

[QUOTE=Jedi_Mindset;1541526]The army the taliban fought against consisted of communist warlords and mujahideen who betrayed and joined the US-pakistani backed northern alliance, communists often carry out scorched earth tactics in which they destroy everything and kill everyone when they pull back. these communist warlords were trained by soviet-elements.

I want to ask you the same, can you provide me proof that the taliban did this? And not media-based articles. You are really failing to provide evidence and aside from that the Afghan people know much better, and yes they are fuming angry against the evil invaders. the attack on camp bastion proved this, taliban is winning power. A matter of time before the US gets out.

Taliban havent got anything much against the shia's, the taliban itself consists of many sects however they are all destined and agreed to follow the real path - Ahlus sunnah wal jamaah

here a good book to read/QUOTE]
I have watched the Youtube videos. They do a great job in showing the human rights atrocities perpetrated by NATO, and I agree, this war has nothing to do with helping the Afghan people. It is a Western colonialist landgrab, no questions about it.

They however say nothing about the abuses perpetrated by the Taleban, which have taken place and continue to take place. Believe me, I am not justifying the invasion or occupation of Afghanistan. I have written letters and signed petitions, attended protests, talked about it to my friends and students and total strangers. I am not defending the West. Their conduct is shameful. It is murderous. It is terroristic.

But the same is true of the Taleban. You shouldn't resist one demon by teaming up with another.

[جوري]

Did you not see my previous post? He said He and the Father are one. .

And what of this?

"My Father is greater than I." ‐ (John 14:28)
which is curious given
For God is not the author of confusion Corinthians 14:33

and what's funny about that is that there's nothing but confusion in the bible..
have a looksey

http://exchristian.net/3/

that's kinda scary man!

Jesus was both man and God. When He was speaking of not knowing, He was speaking of His human side. Jesus also made Himself voluntarily below the Father.

That's not congruent with monotheism or any of the Abrahamic faiths from Judaism, to Mandeans to Sabeans etc. if you have no desire to subscribe to Islam, what you've is polytheism amalgamated with Greek/Egyptian and Sumerian mythology!

You share their intellectual level.

And what of your intellect? ;D

best,

[TG123]

That's no God of monotheism nor Abrahamic faith then!
btw did you see the unearthed material I posted yesterday about said God taking a wife?


gets better and better doesn't it?

best,

You 'unearthed' it, huh? It's the first thing anyone saw when they clicked on Yahoo! News this morning. Brilliant detective work ^o)

PS does Islam teach Jesus was married?

The person who found this "unearthed material" had these things to say:

"Christian tradition has long held that Jesus was not married, even though no reliable historical evidence exists to support that claim," King said at a conference in Rome on Tuesday. "This new gospel doesn’t prove that Jesus was married, but it tells us that the whole question only came up as part of vociferous debates about sexuality and marriage. From the very beginning, Christians disagreed about whether it was better not to marry, but it was over a century after Jesus’s death before they began appealing to Jesus’ marital status to support their positions.

UPDATE: 4:28 p.m. -- Speaking on a conference call Tuesday from Rome, King said that some people who have read about the discovery have asked if the papyrus fragment was describing Jesus as being married to the Christian faith, not to a woman.
"One cannot overrule that it might be him saying 'my wife as a church,' but in the context where he's talking about 'my mother' and 'my wife' and talking about 'my disciple,' the one thing you would not say is that the church would be 'my disciple.'"
Even before King's discovery, there has been speculation that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. "I do not think Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene," King clarified Tuesday, adding, "whether he was or was not married ... I really think the tradition is silent and we don't know."


In your zeal to mock the Christian faith, you showed your inability to read the entire source that you are copying and pasting.

You said "it keeps getting better and better"... I hope that one thing that really improves is your comprehension.

God bless.

[جوري]

Your churches are frankly frightening

no spirituality no goodness, just human cows eating poor people's money and bowing to Satan.

[TG123]

And what of this?

"My Father is greater than I." ‐ (John 14:28)
which is curious given
For God is not the author of confusion Corinthians 14:33

Jesus made Himself inferior to the Father. Nothing confusing about that.

and what's funny about that is that there's nothing but confusion in the bible..
have a looksey

that's kinda scary man!

If you take time to actually read what it says, you won't be confused. Try it sometime.

That's not congruent with monotheism or any of the Abrahamic faiths from Judaism, to Mandeans to Sabeans etc. if you have no desire to subscribe to Islam, what you've is polytheism amalgamated with Greek/Egyptian and Sumerian mythology!

Monotheism = belief in one God
Polytheism = belief in many Gods.

Christians believe in one God who exists as three persons. We are monotheists.

Does the fact Allah is given over 99 attributes in the Quran mean that you believe in 99 gods? When surahs begin with "Bismallah al rahman al rahim", does that mean you are not talking about God the Just and God the Avenger?

You are as 'polytheistic' as we are.

And what of your intellect? ;D

I'm not the one who posts pictures of monkeys and claims that people who disagree with me are animals.
best,[/QUOTE]

[TG123]

Your churches are frankly frightening

no spirituality no goodness, just human cows eating poor people's money and bowing to Satan.

Do you really believe all or even most Christian churches are like that? Are you really that blind?

Does a video of masked men decapitating a man in an orange robe show what Islam is like?

[جوري]

You 'unearthed' it, huh? It's the first thing anyone saw when they clicked on Yahoo! News this morning. Brilliant detective work ^o)

You seem upset? I would be too if every other day I was getting shocking news about god.. hey at least they don't make him thrice the adulterer:
Weimer quoted a passage from the Table-Talk in which Luther states that Christ committed adultery three times, first with the woman at the well, secondly with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery, “whom he let off so lightly. Thus even Christ who was so holy had to commit adultery before he died.” (See Arnold Lunn, The Revolt Against Reason, Eyre & Spottiswoode (Publishers), London, 1950, p.233.)

PS does Islam teach Jesus was married?

He'll be in shaa Allah with his second coming and die like all men will!

The person who found this "unearthed material" had these things to say:

"Christian tradition has long held that Jesus was not married, even though no reliable historical evidence exists to support that claim," King said at a conference in Rome on Tuesday. "This new gospel doesn’t prove that Jesus was married, but it tells us that the whole question only came up as part of vociferous debates about sexuality and marriage. From the very beginning, Christians disagreed about whether it was better not to marry, but it was over a century after Jesus’s death before they began appealing to Jesus’ marital status to support their positions.

UPDATE: 4:28 p.m. -- Speaking on a conference call Tuesday from Rome, King said that some people who have read about the discovery have asked if the papyrus fragment was describing Jesus as being married to the Christian faith, not to a woman.
"One cannot overrule that it might be him saying 'my wife as a church,' but in the context where he's talking about 'my mother' and 'my wife' and talking about 'my disciple,' the one thing you would not say is that the church would be 'my disciple.'"
Even before King's discovery, there has been speculation that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. "I do not think Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene," King clarified Tuesday, adding, "whether he was or was not married ... I really think the tradition is silent and we don't know."

you can fix this in the manner of your choosing, it doesn't do much for me either way.. Martin Luther already seems to think he's an adulterer so I think marriage is at least a step up!

In your zeal to mock the Christian faith, you showed your inability to read the entire source that you are copying and pasting.

To the contrary I have read every word.. It doesn't bother me that a man born to a woman who ate and defecated and cursed a tree in the earth that he would have allegedly created otherwise for not bearing him fruit is married. Seems natural.

You said "it keeps getting better and better"... I hope that one thing that really improves is your comprehension.

God bless.

But it is your comprehension that's on the line here.. I don't subscribe to half of this bull **** so it doesn't bother me one way or the other..

by the way how is your evangelizing going? any luck with the folks of the forum? :p

[جوري]

Jesus made Himself inferior to the Father. Nothing confusing about that.

Well sure if you're worshiping three gods. Isn't it better to simply concede to that in lieu of all the convolutions?

If you take time to actually read what it says, you won't be confused. Try it sometime.

Come now oh evangelize(r) can't you do better than descending down to petty schoolboy games?

Monotheism = belief in one God
Polytheism = belief in many Gods.

Indeed, one superior god, one mini god who prays the superior god won't forsake him in the morning and one hovering god that descends upon charlatans to forgo his entire OT

Christians believe in one God who exists as three persons. We are monotheists.

That's not logically coherent!

Does the fact Allah is given over 99 attributes in the Quran mean that you believe in 99 gods? When surahs begin with "Bismallah al rahman al rahim", does that mean you are not talking about God the Just and God the Avenger?

Calling Jesus, yashu, isa, the anointed one we're still talking about the same person with the same nature, but you're talking about a god above, a hovering god and a dying mangod, not the same thing, attributes aren't a contradiction. I can be sad and angry and generous and still be منوة however, three gods and claiming monotheism is another illogical assertion!

You are as 'polytheistic' as we are.

Nope!

I'm not the one who posts pictures of monkeys and claims that people who disagree with me are animals.

It is a trope, I thought it was appropriate!

best,

[جوري]

Do you really believe all or even most Christian churches are like that? Are you really that blind?

I have frequented a few churches attended mass and all, they're no different.

Does a video of masked men decapitating a man in an orange robe show what Islam is like?

Does the robe have to be orange? Indeed if an orange wearing man was doing this in a Mosque and I frquented mosques and saw that daily I might think that is what Islam is all about..by the way the whole 'terrorist' thing is not a sore point for me (at all) if you think it a trump card or something that I am going to try to deflect or hide or cover you're mistaken so get new material as it is your arguments are akin to that of 7 year old.. if this weren't so relaxing and virtually appealing I'd almost feel sorry for you :)

best,

[sister herb]

Do you really believe all or even most Christian churches are like that? Are you really that blind?

If most of Christians don´t like this, why you allow it continues?

^o)

I just wonder.

[Predator]

Did you not see my previous post?

I did and it proved nothing

He said He and the Father are one.

John 10:30 "I (Jesus) and the Father are One." This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context,

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. Father is holding something in his hand and son is also holding something and no one can pull it of of eithers hand , are the father and son the same person ?

It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart.

29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how you try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me.In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary?
However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people,

1-The fact is that the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.
2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.
3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.

He said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.

The Bible says:
"No man hath seen God at any time," John 1:18

Again watch reason 8 in the video
[09:20]Reason #08 - No one has seen God!

He said He will judge the nations.
.

Jesus does everything according to will of the God, for instance Jesus does not do things according to what he thinks or feels, rather he does things which is in line with God's will. So when Jesus does judge the people, Jesus judges the people in line with God's will, not his own, as Jesus himself says:


I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30)


So when Jesus Judges the people, he judges them not according to his own judgement, rather he judges the people according to God's will. Hence you can already see that it is already God who is in real control, not Jesus, because Jesus simply judges on God's will. For instance in Islam we believe the prophet Muhammad will intercede for the believers, yet the prophet Muhammad is given the right to intercede, and he can only intercede for those who have been given permission to be interceded for, and those who can be saved by his intercession can only be saved by God's will and permission, hence in reality all the power of intercession is in God's hand, the prophet Muhammad is simply having the honour and blessing of carrying the task out.


The same goes for Jesus, he will be judge, but he is given the right to judge, and he can only judge those who have been given permission to be judged by God, and his judgement cannot be his own personal judgement but rather must be in line with God's will, hence in reality all judgement is with God and not with Jesus. This is exactly why Jesus said the following:


I judge no man. (John 8:15)


How can Jesus judge no man when he says he will judge people? Is this a contradiction? Not really, the reason he says he judges no man is because of the explanation I gave above, it all fits the picture. Yes, Jesus will judge people, but he is given permission to judge, it is not his own right and power, and on top of that Jesus will judge people according to God's will, not his own, hence in reality all judgement is with God, not Jesus, and this is precisely why Jesus eventually says he judges no man.

[TG123]

You seem upset? I would be too if every other day I was getting shocking news about god.. hey at least they don't make him thrice the adulterer:
Weimer quoted a passage from the Table-Talk in which Luther states that Christ committed adultery three times, first with the woman at the well, secondly with Mary Magdalene, and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery, “whom he let off so lightly. Thus even Christ who was so holy had to commit adultery before he died.” (See Arnold Lunn, The Revolt Against Reason, Eyre & Spottiswoode (Publishers), London, 1950, p.233.)

So you believe that Jesus committed adultery?

He'll be in shaa Allah with his second coming and die like all men will!

That's not what I asked you.

you can fix this in the manner of your choosing, it doesn't do much for me either way.. Martin Luther already seems to think he's an adulterer so I think marriage is at least a step up![/U]

I'm not "fixing" anything, I'm merely pointing out that the article you cited does nothing to prove your point, as the author herself states that the documents she found do not prove Jesus was married.

To the contrary I have read every word.. It doesn't bother me that a man born to a woman who ate and defecated and cursed a tree in the earth that he would have allegedly created otherwise for not bearing him fruit is married. Seems natural.

Except that your source does not state He was married to begin with.

But it is your comprehension that's on the line here.. I don't subscribe to half of this bull **** so it doesn't bother me one way or the other..

by the way how is your evangelizing going? any luck with the folks of the forum? :p

I can only witness to the truth. It is up to you and others to accept it or reject it. All glory belongs to God.

[TG123]

Well sure if you're worshiping three gods. Isn't it better to simply concede to that in lieu of all the convolutions?

No, because it isn't true. The claim Christians worship three gods is an ignorant claim made by people who do not understand our faith, or are making lies about it.

Come now oh evangelize(r) can't you do better than descending down to petty schoolboy games?

I'm not the one who goes around swearing and posting up pictures of apes.

Indeed, one superior god, one mini god who prays the superior god won't forsake him in the morning and one hovering god that descends upon charlatans to forgo his entire OT

Nope. One God who exists and reveals Himself in three ways- as the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. He created us and called us children as the Father, then came down to earth to live among us as the Son, and remains the the hearts of the believers as the Holy Spirit. Why do you call us 'charlatans'? Do I use such terms to describe Muslims?

That's not logically coherent!

Maybe not to you. The idea of God existing is not logically coherent to most atheists either. That doesn't mean it isn't true.

Calling Jesus, yashu, isa, the anointed one we're still talking about the same person with the same nature, but you're talking about a god above, a hovering god and a dying mangod, not the same thing, attributes aren't a contradiction. I can be sad and angry and generous and still be منوة however, three gods and claiming monotheism is another illogical assertion!

Why can God not exist as three persons? Do you believe He is unable to do that?

Nope!

Na'am!
:)

It is a trope, I thought it was appropriate!

best,

You think it is appropriate to compare people who don't agree with you to monkeys? Really?

[TG123]

I have frequented a few churches attended mass and all, they're no different.

You saw people dancing in them? Which church was that?

Does the robe have to be orange? Indeed if an orange wearing man was doing this in a Mosque and I frquented mosques and saw that daily I might think that is what Islam is all about..by the way the whole 'terrorist' thing is not a sore point for me (at all) if you think it a trump card or something that I am going to try to deflect or hide or cover you're mistaken so get new material as it is your arguments are akin to that of 7 year old.. if this weren't so relaxing and virtually appealing I'd almost feel sorry for you :)

best,

So how a Muslim acts outside of a mosque doesn't matter? I don't think you are relaxed at all, if you were, you wouldn't be swearing and making insults. People who do that in a debate more often than not have nothing intelligent to add, so they make up for it in such ways.

[TG123]

I did and it proved nothing


John 10:30 "I (Jesus) and the Father are One." This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context,

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. Father is holding something in his hand and son is also holding something and no one can pull it of of eithers hand , are the father and son the same person ?

It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart.

29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how you try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me.In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary?
However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people,

1-The fact is that the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.
2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.
3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.




The Bible says:
"No man hath seen God at any time," John 1:18

Again watch reason 8 in the video
[09:20]Reason #08 - No one has seen God!





Jesus does everything according to will of the God, for instance Jesus does not do things according to what he thinks or feels, rather he does things which is in line with God's will. So when Jesus does judge the people, Jesus judges the people in line with God's will, not his own, as Jesus himself says:


I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30)


So when Jesus Judges the people, he judges them not according to his own judgement, rather he judges the people according to God's will. Hence you can already see that it is already God who is in real control, not Jesus, because Jesus simply judges on God's will. For instance in Islam we believe the prophet Muhammad will intercede for the believers, yet the prophet Muhammad is given the right to intercede, and he can only intercede for those who have been given permission to be interceded for, and those who can be saved by his intercession can only be saved by God's will and permission, hence in reality all the power of intercession is in God's hand, the prophet Muhammad is simply having the honour and blessing of carrying the task out.


The same goes for Jesus, he will be judge, but he is given the right to judge, and he can only judge those who have been given permission to be judged by God, and his judgement cannot be his own personal judgement but rather must be in line with God's will, hence in reality all judgement is with God and not with Jesus. This is exactly why Jesus said the following:


I judge no man. (John 8:15)


How can Jesus judge no man when he says he will judge people? Is this a contradiction? Not really, the reason he says he judges no man is because of the explanation I gave above, it all fits the picture. Yes, Jesus will judge people, but he is given permission to judge, it is not his own right and power, and on top of that Jesus will judge people according to God's will, not his own, hence in reality all judgement is with God, not Jesus, and this is precisely why Jesus eventually says he judges no man.

This a really well written, intelligent, and thought out post. I will gladly reply to it later today after work. Salaam.

[جوري]

So you believe that Jesus committed adultery?


That's not what I asked you.


I'm not "fixing" anything, I'm merely pointing out that the article you cited does nothing to prove your point, as the author herself states that the documents she found do not prove Jesus was married.


Except that your source does not state He was married to begin with.


I can only witness to the truth. It is up to you and others to accept it or reject it. All glory belongs to God.

I don't subscribe to your books nor your beliefs. I subscribe to Islam and Jesus Peace be upon him is innocent of all that you ascribe to him. The flaws lie in your religion, creed, dogma and beliefs and not mine. if you want to come here and evangelize, fix those first and then come gauge in a theological debate!

[جوري]

You saw people dancing in them? Which church was that?

The one attached to the school I attended! I had a good christian education thus your efforts are wasted here on most if not all of us!

So how a Muslim acts outside of a mosque doesn't matter? I don't think you are relaxed at all, if you were, you wouldn't be swearing and making insults. People who do that in a debate more often than not have nothing intelligent to add, so they make up for it in such ways.

That's a good way to describe yourself!

best,

[جوري]

No, because it isn't true. The claim Christians worship three gods is an ignorant claim made by people who do not understand our faith, or are making lies about it.

And you've asserted that claim in your description of your gods!

I'm not the one who goes around swearing and posting up pictures of apes.

Ah, but you respond to it in kind and you twist its meaning.. is that the love your three gods taught you?

Nope. One God who exists and reveals Himself in three ways- as the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. He created us and called us children as the Father, then came down to earth to live among us as the Son, and remains the the hearts of the believers as the Holy Spirit. Why do you call us 'charlatans'? Do I use such terms to describe Muslims?

God had many children, why should Jesus be worshiped out of all of them? hmm?
He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. -- John 3:18 God sent his only begotten son into the world. -- 1 John 4:9 Adam was also God's son. Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38 Some of God's sons had sex with women producing a race of giants. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ... There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. -- Genesis 6:2-4 Satan and his companions were sons of God. The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. -- Job 2:1 God's sons were present when the universe was created. Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? -- Job 38:6-7 Christians are God's sons. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. -- John 1:12
even Satan is God' son? Saul/Paul was a charlatan indeed I have no other description for him- Also, I have already asserted whatever terms you use or believe in your heart about Muslims don't aggrieve me. Your opinion and feelings don't matter to me and I'll not exchange lies and hypocrisy for you to have a favorable view of Muslims!

Maybe not to you. The idea of God existing is not logically coherent to most atheists either. That doesn't mean it isn't true.

That's not a rebuttal. If you had something substantive you'd have presented it!

Na'am!

Then prove it, don't cower behind words especially that per your intro. came here to evangelize!

You think it is appropriate to compare people who don't agree with you to monkeys? Really?

Anyone who will reference back to the pic will know exactly the meaning behind it and see you displaying that behavior whether an elephant in the photo or a martian so move on already you've milked it enough!

[TG123]

I did and it proved nothing


John 10:30 "I (Jesus) and the Father are One." This verse is severely misunderstood and is taken out of context,

These verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. Father is holding something in his hand and son is also holding something and no one can pull it of of eithers hand , are the father and son the same person ?

Given the fact that John 1 says Jesus is God, John 10:30 I believe means that both Jesus and the Father are one God. This is something much more than saying they are one in essence.

Does the Quran (or Old Testament for that matter) have any record of any prophet saying that he and God are one? If that means what you suggest it does, why did not Muhammad or Moses or Abraham or Noah or the many other prophets ever state such a thing?

It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," in John 10:29 completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how you try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is beyond me.

Let's look at this in more context.

John 10:22-30
²² At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, ²³ and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. ²⁴ So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” ²⁵ Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, ²⁶ but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. ²⁷ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸ I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”

Jesus says the Father is greater than all. Then He says He and the Father are one. Would imply that like the Father, Jesus is greater than all. Who is greater than all? Allah. God.

In fact this is not the first time that Jesus says the Father is greater than him, he does it again later:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I (John 14:28)

So here we once again have Jesus claiming the Father is greater than him, so how is Jesus equal to the Father when Jesus says the contrary?
However so what did Jesus mean in John 10 when Jesus said the Father is greater than ALL? Jesus placed himself in the category of ALL people,

1-The fact is that the Bible shows that the Father is greater than Jesus in essence, the Father is all-knowing and Jesus is not.
2-The Father gives Jesus everything from miracle to doctrine.
3-Jesus begs the Father to save him, obviously showing that life and death is controlled by the Father and NOT Jesus.

In Philippians, this is explained quite nicely. Jesus the Son voluntarily made Himself inferior to the Father. Philippians 2:5-11
⁵ In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
⁶ Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
⁷ rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
⁸ And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
⁹ Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
¹⁰ that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
¹¹ and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Also, while on earth, Jesus was both God and man. His human nature which He adopted voluntarily did not know. As the Son, God made Himself human and God. As the Father, He remained and remains purely God.

The Bible says:
"No man hath seen God at any time," John 1:18

Again watch reason 8 in the video
[09:20]Reason #08 - No one has seen God!

Jesus said this to people before revealing that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. Like a good teacher, He allowed His students to get close to a finding before He revealed it. He didn’t tell people right away that He is God and He didn’t say so directly. He allowed them to figure it out.

The Bible says:
Jesus does everything according to will of the God, for instance Jesus does not do things according to what he thinks or feels, rather he does things which is in line with God's will. So when Jesus does judge the people, Jesus judges the people in line with God's will, not his own, as Jesus himself says:


I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30)

Again, Philippians 2:5-11 explains this. He made Himself inferior to the Father. Both He and the Father are God.

The Bible says:
So when Jesus Judges the people, he judges them not according to his own judgement, rather he judges the people according to God's will. Hence you can already see that it is already God who is in real control, not Jesus, because Jesus simply judges on God's will. For instance in Islam we believe the prophet Muhammad will intercede for the believers, yet the prophet Muhammad is given the right to intercede, and he can only intercede for those who have been given permission to be interceded for, and those who can be saved by his intercession can only be saved by God's will and permission, hence in reality all the power of intercession is in God's hand, the prophet Muhammad is simply having the honour and blessing of carrying the task out.

The same goes for Jesus, he will be judge, but he is given the right to judge, and he can only judge those who have been given permission to be judged by God, and his judgement cannot be his own personal judgement but rather must be in line with God's will, hence in reality all judgement is with God and not with Jesus.

There is a difference between Jesus and Muhammad in this sense though. Islam believes, as you just correctly stated, that Muhammad will intercede for people God has allowed him permission to intercede for.
Matthew 25:31-49 says that Jesus will be judge. He will decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
That position is one only God can make, do you not agree? Islam states Muhammad will intercede for believers, but who will decide who goes to heaven (or paradise) and who goes to hell? Only God.
Muhammad passed judgements on people on earth, would it however not be heresy to believe that he will be seated on a throne when the world comes to be judged, and he will assign to people heaven or hell?

The Bible says:
This is exactly why Jesus said the following:

I judge no man. (John 8:15)

How can Jesus judge no man when he says he will judge people? Is this a contradiction? Not really, the reason he says he judges no man is because of the explanation I gave above, it all fits the picture. Yes, Jesus will judge people, but he is given permission to judge, it is not his own right and power, and on top of that Jesus will judge people according to God's will, not his own, hence in reality all judgement is with God, not Jesus, and this is precisely why Jesus eventually says he judges no man.

Jesus chose not to judge people while He was on earth. He will not judge until the Day of Judgement. Does God in Islam assign people to heaven or hell while they are still alive? Do you believe He does?
No, He lets people live their lives and make the choices and choose whether they will follow Him or not. As many theological differences as we have, that is hopefully something we can agree on. Once a person dies, that is it.
Likewise with Jesus. He did not judge anyone while on this earth. In fact, He did the opposite- He forgave the people who were mocking Him as He hung on the cross.
People have their whole life to choose to believe in Him and follow Him.
Then they die.

Then He judges them. He is Allah.

[TG123]

The one attached to the school I attended! I had a good christian education thus your efforts are wasted here on most if not all of us!

They danced during the Mass? What was the name of this church?

That's a good way to describe yourself!

best,

Really? Where did I swear at you? Or call you names?

[جوري]

Given the fact that John 1 says Jesus is God, John 10:30 I believe means that both Jesus and the Father are one God. This is something much more than saying they are one in essence.

Does the Quran (or Old Testament for that matter) have any record of any prophet saying that he and God are one? If that means what you suggest it does, why did not Muhammad or Moses or Abraham or Noah or the many other prophets ever state such a thing?

Firstly you must establish credibility for the bible- you've not done that. We've pointed out contradictions and lack of coherence and you ignored that and then alas you have come and dug your own hole for yourself by pointing out how much different the god of the bible is and how deviant from the monotheistic message that has always existed. So in fact you should be posing that question to your own person and find an honest answer.

Then He judges them. He is Allah.

God doesn't die and God is one.. why are your beliefs better than those of Hindus? they too pray to multiple gods and then have one all powerful god that presides over lesser gods. You need to sign up for some courses on how to debate, I don't think any of us are even exerting minimal effort the absurdity of the stuff you write.

best,

[جوري]

Somebody ought to split this thread.. evangies have a way of hijacking everything to their sob stories.. Afghan women slaughter all of a sudden turns into a story about man/god

[TG123]

And you've asserted that claim in your description of your gods!

Please copy and paste my words where I assert I worship more than one God.

Ah, but you respond to it in kind and you twist its meaning.. is that the love your three gods taught you?

You were the one who began by throwing insults at me and my faith. I pointed out how stupid your attacks on me and my beliefs are. At times, after several of your attacks, I got annoyed and responded in a sarcastic and unkind manner. I don't feel bad about saying these things about your assertions, but it was wrong to do what you did to me and make personal attacks. I am sorry about that. I will make an effort to respond to your attacks if you continue to make them by pointing out how false and senseless they are, but not attack you as a person. I have nothing against you personally.

There are Muslim posters on this forum who also disagree with Christianity and are able to express their questions in a respectful, intelligent, and well researched manner. You can do the same if you want to.

God had many children, why should Jesus be worshiped out of all of them? hmm?
He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. -- John 3:18 God sent his only begotten son into the world. -- 1 John 4:9 Adam was also God's son. Adam, which was the son of God. Luke 3:38 Some of God's sons had sex with women producing a race of giants. That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ... There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. -- Genesis 6:2-4 Satan and his companions were sons of God. The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. -- Job 2:1 God's sons were present when the universe was created. Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? -- Job 38:6-7 Christians are God's sons. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. -- John 1:12
even Satan is God' son?

Neither Adam or anyone you mentioned except Jesus is God's begotten Son. Also, none of them were worshipped. None of them said that he and the Father are one, or that who has seen him has seen the Father. No one of them made the claim they will judge the nations on the Day of Judgement.

Jesus did.

Saul/Paul was a charlatan indeed I have no other description for him- Also, I have already asserted whatever terms you use or believe in your heart about Muslims don't aggrieve me. Your opinion and feelings don't matter to me and I'll not exchange lies and hypocrisy for you to have a favorable view of Muslims!

I believe Muslims are people created in the image and likeness of God, people who He loves so much that He came down and died for you on the cross. I believe Muslims are misguided in your beliefs. I respect much of what Islam teaches, but a lot of it I believe is wrong. I will post more on that as soon as I am allowed to post links on the forum.

You said you believe Paul was a charlatan, yet you seem upset about the garbage movie made about Muhammad where he is falsely portrayed as a deluded fool and a pedophile (as I heard, I had not watched it). That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

That's not a rebuttal. If you had something substantive you'd have presented it!

You said my beliefs are illogical. I responded by saying belief in God is illogical to atheists too.

If you want me to respond with more, show me how my arguments are illogical. Blanket statements get blanket responses.

Then prove it, don't cower behind words especially that per your intro. came here to evangelize!

A person who misunderstands Islam would claim you are polytheists, because he or she would falsely believe that you believe the 99 attributes of God = 99 gods. A person who misunderstands Christianity (such as yourself) would falsely believe that God who reveals Himself as three persons = 3 gods.

Both are misunderstandings.

Anyone who will reference back to the pic will know exactly the meaning behind it and see you displaying that behavior whether an elephant in the photo or a martian so move on already you've milked it enough!

What kind of behaviour? Disagreeing?

[جوري]

Please copy and paste my words where I assert I worship more than one God.

Your words are irrelevant, we're discussing your core tenets to which you subscribe. If you can't do math, that's nobody's problem but yours!

You were the one who began by throwing insults at me and my faith.

I have done no such thing and is the love of your god contingent on being met in kind?

I pointed out how stupid your attacks on me and my beliefs are. At times, after several of your attacks, I got annoyed and responded in a sarcastic and unkind manner

That's your mannerism in general and congruent with what we understand of your beliefs. Saying one thing then there's always a hidden agenda!

Neither Adam or anyone you mentioned except Jesus is God's begotten Son. Also, none of them were worshipped. None of them said that he and the Father are one, or that who has seen him has seen the Father. No one of them made the claim they will judge the nations on the Day of Judgement.

Jesus did.

Show me where Jesus said I am God worship me and reconcile all the other errors in your book, and bring me accounts that are congruent with each other and a bible in Jesus original tongue and a corpus from his time not through some unknown authors centuries later and then we can have this conversation and I think now you can understand why no one takes you or Christianity seriously!

I believe Muslims are people created in the image and likeness of God, people who He loves so much that He came down and died for you on the cross. I believe Muslims are misguided in your beliefs. I respect much of what Islam teaches, but a lot of it I believe is wrong. I will post more on that as soon as I am allowed to post links on the forum.

That's loaded and I don't think anyone has a need for a god to eat their sins or to be like god. I don't want another weak human being who couldn't ward off a couple of conspirators nor save himself from a certain fate for a creator. Of course you're free to your beliefs but you're not free to force shove them down everyone's throat.. It is like eating cardboard!

You said you believe Paul was a charlatan, yet you seem upset about the garbage movie made about Muhammad where he is falsely portrayed as a deluded fool and a pedophile (as I heard, I had not watched it). That sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Again, this isn't about what I believe, I mean your priests are known pederasts and your god impregnated a little girl so I don't think you're in a position to ping pong here at any rate. Was Paul chosen by Jesus as an apostle. I don't I understand why we should forgo his companions for a self-appointed one?

You said my beliefs are illogical. I responded by saying belief in God is illogical to atheists too.

Belief in God shouldn't be illogical it should one of two natural conclusions

If you want me to respond with more, show me how my arguments are illogical. Blanket statements get blanket responses.

I have been doing that all along, you chose to dodge it and hammer in how god died to eat our sins!

A person who misunderstands Islam would claim you are polytheists, because he or she would falsely believe that you believe the 99 attributes of God = 99 gods. A person who misunderstands Christianity (such as yourself) would falsely believe that God who reveals Himself as three persons = 3 gods.

Both are misunderstandings.

and I have illustrated how an attribute and three separate persons in different places in particular points in time aren't the same thing!

What kind of behaviour? Disagreeing?

No, not reading, reasoning and coming back with a seasoned reply.
for your own sake sign up for some classes and quit parroting the stuff they teach you in churches. It isn't working!

best,

[Ramadhan]

Let's go back on Topic.

[TG123]

Well, we all agree at least that the NATO airstrike was a criminal action. Sorry for derailing the thread and responding to allegations that Jesus is not God, perhaps we can move that discussion into the Comparative Religions forum.


:w:, I hope you have a great day. I will not be discussing theology anymore with you, because I prefer to talk with people who are capable of voicing disagreement while at the same time being respectful, and there are a lot of people like that on this forum. Sorry for the times I responded to your attacks against me by attacking you. To avoid this in the future, I will do my best to avoid discussions with you. I will keep you in my prayers, although I would break the forum rules receive a warning if I were to say to say why so I won't.

Salaam.

[جوري]

If you don't like it here don't be a member here.
Any committee that boards a club or institution or whatever can put down its rules and regulations. If they're not suitable then find another community - don't invent a new way to sneak in the same rhetoric in different wording!
As to what you consider insulting or accommodating anyone can see that it's due to your inability to string together a coherent reply to issues raised- and they're very legitimate and you'll always be met with them, hence I tell you when they send you out evangelizing the courses they give you are incomplete. You need basic courses in theology and logic. Don't assume that anyone will subscribe to your version of truth simply because you assert it or quote your bible. Most people don't believe in the bible even Christians contend it is wrought with errors- how do you sell that which isn't convincing to your own community so that they preach on one heart?
You deflect from the issues with whining & excuses!
Religion should satisfy two (the heart and mind) not just speak to aimless whims & desires!

Best