I attended a Catholic mass

[Pygoscelis]

So, I visited a cahothilic mass and I noticed a few things that surprised me.

First, I noticed there were no copies of the bible in the pews. There were only song books.

Second, I noticed there was a fold down bench and we were to kneel a lot of the time. That wasn't there in the other christian churches I have been to.

Third, I noticed the priest mix two cups of liquid into a third, dip a cracker in it, sing to the cracker, and eat it. He then fed other crackers to the parishioners for the eucharist.

Fourth, There was a really nice part where he told us all to look around us and shake hands or otherwise say hi to everybody around us. That was a nice surprise.

Fifth, There wasn't really any hate being preached. That was nice to see (or not see).

[Hulk]

I went inside a Hindu temple once but it was a school trip and I was too young to remember much of anything, though I remember there being coconuts.

[Muhammad]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

May I ask what inspired you to visit a Catholic Mass? And have you visited any other religious gathering before?

[dusk]

First, I noticed there were no copies of the bible in the pews. There were only song books.

Catholics are about the symbolic meaning, not so fond of reciting. Catholic church is old compared to protestantism they used to preach in latin. Common people couldn't read the bible. ;)
Things didn't change so much. Catholics are about the spiritual feeling, while protestants are about the word as they say.

Second, I noticed there was a fold down bench and we were to kneel a lot of the time. That wasn't there in the other christian churches I have been to.

I always felt the traditional old Catholic churches are the master of uncomfortable sitting. The benches in our school chapel was such that kneeling was actually more comfortable than sitting.

Fourth, There was a really nice part where he told us all to look around us and shake hands or otherwise say hi to everybody around us. That was a nice surprise.

And peace be with you. Is what they always say where I come from.

I once was at a methodist church to get something to tell my father. They got bibles but only look into them 1 or 2 times most of it was singing. The real bible study with Christians is always at separate small group meetings at any hour they have time or interest afaik.

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[Independent]

I always felt the traditional old Catholic churches are the master of uncomfortable sitting

This isn't especially important in the greater scheme of things but, interestingly, the habit of providing seating or 'pews' only really came in a few centuries ago, especially with Protestantism. Before then an open plan model was preferred.

[glo]

Fourth, There was a really nice part where he told us all to look around us and shake hands or otherwise say hi to everybody around us. That was a nice surprise.

It's practice is our church too. It's called 'sharing the peace (God's peace)' - so from a Christian perspective it's a bit more than saying hi. :)

Fifth, There wasn't really any hate being preached. That was nice to see (or not see).

I don't think I have ever been to a church service where hate was being preached. It is usually about reflecting on our own actions and how we can live better according to Jesus' teachings.

Mind you, this Sunday our retried priest was preaching and he was talking about the people who don't follow God falling into the groups of fools and scoffers (relating to a passage in Proverbs). I was just thinking to myself "That's a bit judgmental. I wonder where he is going with that" because it sounded like he was having a go at non-Christians ... when in a clever U-turn he turned it around on OURSELVES, challenging us to think when WE act like fools and scoffers and don't follow God.

[Pygoscelis]

Greetings Pygoscelis,

May I ask what inspired you to visit a Catholic Mass? And have you visited any other religious gathering before?

Every now and then I visit various religious places of worship, when I have a friend who is or was a follower of that religion. It is socially and culturally interesting to me. This time I went with a girlfriend who is a lapsed Catholic and felt like going (after not having gone for a couple of years).

Oh, one other thing I noticed was that the confession room was not like on TV and movies. There were not two wooden booths to sit in with a small opening for talking, etc. The confession thing was a small room with a small divider which really would only block your face if you were sitting perfectly still. I don't think anybody uses it and I think confession is actually done without anonymity in this particular catholic church.

[dusk]

I always thought confession to be a ridiculous thing. Why would one need a priest for that?

[Muhammad]

Every now and then I visit various religious places of worship, when I have a friend who is or was a follower of that religion. It is socially and culturally interesting to me. This time I went with a girlfriend who is a lapsed Catholic and felt like going (after not having gone for a couple of years).

Have you ever visited a Mosque?

[observer]

I went inside a Hindu temple once but it was a school trip and I was too young to remember much of anything, though I remember there being coconuts.

That might be the greatest forum posting I've ever seen!

[Pygoscelis]

Have you ever visited a Mosque?

Only for a couple of moments when picking somebody up to drive them home after they worshiped there. I lost touch with that person and so never went with them to an actual service or gathering. Being there was a little more uncomfortable than being at the Catholic church, other Christian churches, Jewish Synagogue, Sikh temple or Hindu temple I have been to, because in the other cases I was brought with somebody and told the dos an don'ts.

When I was briefly at the Mosque I had no guide and back then I knew nothing of the culture and customs of Islam and didn't want to offend anybody at their holy place etc. Good thing I was cautious too. Because out in the parking lot I came very close to walking up to a pair of muslimas in a burka without their husbands present and extended a handshake hello, as was the custom at a church I had gone to the week before. lol On the drive home my friend told me it was a very strict mosque and that would not have been smile on.

I may visit another mosque someday, now that I have more knowledge of what is and is not acceptable behaviour for Muslims. But my next visit is looking like it will be to a Bhuddist temple. I have a friend who goes regularly and has offered to take me along to watch what goes on there.

[glo]

I always thought confession to be a ridiculous thing. Why would one need a priest for that?

I'd agree with that. Nobody should be required or even entitled to absolve another of their sins and mistakes. Either God forgives or he doesn't ...

However, there can be something profound and even healing in sharing one's mistakes with another person one trusts. A bit like sharing and off-loading a burden ...

[GuestFellow]

A confession may help an individual. People talking about their sins/problems can be some form of a relief rather than bottling it all up.

Fourth, There was a really nice part where he told us all to look around us and shake hands or otherwise say hi to everybody around us. That was a nice surprise.

That is very interesting.

[glo]

^
TT, sharing God's peace with others is a common practice is some churches. I like it too. It's like saying salaam :)

[glo]

cahothilic mass

That's a denomination I've never heard of, Pygo! ;D

[Scimitar]

Loving this thread :)

Scimi

[IbnAbdulHakim]

why make your fifth point?

was uncalled for

[Aprender]

I don't think I have ever been to a church service where hate was being preached. It is usually about reflecting on our own actions and how we can live better according to Jesus' teachings.

This has only happened to me a few times at church when I used to go as a Christian and I hated it when it did happen. Sometimes the pastor would get up and talk about something wrong that someone did in the congregation and shame them for it. But I will say that was one of the reasons I was trying out new churches from time to time to see which one I liked more because sometimes the pastors would be o_O.

But I did find a few where they weren't like that at all. :) I enjoyed them because they tried to do a lot with interfaith works to help the community and I found it to be very productive.

It's practice is our church too. It's called 'sharing the peace (God's peace)' - so from a Christian perspective it's a bit more than saying hi.

I remember this. Once I went to a service where this took up most of the time. I guess that was the point of the sermon that day. My little sister was with us and said she felt annoyed like we were in kindergarten again. Haha.

[MustafaMc]

I'd agree with that. Nobody should be required or even entitled to absolve another of their sins and mistakes. Either God forgives or he doesn't ...

On this point we agree.

However, there can be something profound and even healing in sharing one's mistakes with another person one trusts. A bit like sharing and off-loading a burden ...

In Islam we are encouraged to keep our sins to ourselves and to not share them with people. We ask God directly for forgiveness and we ask others who we have offended or injured to forgive us as well.

[MustafaMc]

I don't think I have ever been to a church service where hate was being preached.

In September 2010 I travelled 6 hours to the church I grew up in to hear a seminar 'Revealing the Truth about Islam' where an Egyptian Christian, Usama Dakdok, spent 2 hours speaking hatefully about Islam, Muhammad and Muslims. I learned about this seminar by chance after reconnecting with a high school classmate who was the associate pastor at this church.

[Pygoscelis]

In my visits to various places of worship (Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh) I've only found hardcore hate being preached in particular protestant churches. I did not know what to expect in a Catholic church.

[glo]

In Islam we are encouraged to keep our sins to ourselves and to not share them with people. We ask God directly for forgiveness and we ask others who we have offended or injured to forgive us as well.

I am aware of that and think it quite interesting.
I completely agree that we can (and should ) ask God directly for forgiveness.

I am assuming that "we ask others who we have offended or injured to forgive us as well" means that you should speak to those you have wronged and ask their forgiveness directly from them? So it is encouraged to confess your sin to those you have harm with it? But discouraged to talk about your sins to third parties?
Am I understanding correctly?

[glo]

In September 2010 I travelled 6 hours to the church I grew up in to hear a seminar 'Revealing the Truth about Islam' where an Egyptian Christian, Usama Dakdok, spent 2 hours speaking hatefully about Islam, Muhammad and Muslims. I learned about this seminar by chance after reconnecting with a high school classmate who was the associate pastor at this church.

In my visits to various places of worship (Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh) I've only found hardcore hate being preached in particular protestant churches. I did not know what to expect in a Catholic church.

I feel really saddened when I hear such accounts. imsad

I don't think (or perhaps I just hope) that such things are very common here in the UK.

I attended a free evangelical church for a while. And they sometimes preached quite clearly that (for example) homosexuality was wrong or other religions were wrong. So not the most tolerant of churches.
But even then there was never a message of hate attached. The message was always to love people regardless of their faults and mistakes, and to keep being friends and praying for them.

So stories of hate preachers (other than what I see in the media and mostly seems to come from the US) are very alien to me, and simply not part of my own experience ...

My apologies to any of you who have been at the receiving end of such people! :embarrass

[IbnAbdulHakim]

In my visits to various places of worship (Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh) I've only found hardcore hate being preached in particular protestant churches. I did not know what to expect in a Catholic church.

I see, sorry for not understanding that.

Even some muslims fall into hate preaching, may Allah grant us understanding and compassion.

such things benefit no one, and harm many...

[dusk]

However, there can be something profound and even healing in sharing one's mistakes with another person one trusts. A bit like sharing and off-loading a burden ...

Sure but unfortunately that is not how they did things when I was young. Mostly surrounded by really liberal Catholics but still they had their weird ideas. When I was in 2nd grade, 8 years I think, they dragged us once a year to the priest. They did it twice, later I think we'd have to much self-confidence to go involuntarily. Young children who did know their religion teacher but didn't know that priest at all. I remember I didn't like him at all.
So they wanted us to confess some sins. We ended up sharing possible ideas and next told some made up story to satisfy him. What has an 8 year old really to confess and if he had why would he tell some stranger he just met and doesn't like.

I suppose they only wanted to show us how the process works but it is still dumb and they did a bad job. The Methodist in the US have been much smarter. They keep the children in some kindergarden until they are old enough to want to attend church by themselves. No frightening stuff of sending children into a dark room together with some old man they don't know very well.
He was probably a nice enough priest, but I was not a trusting 8 year old and I greatly disliked the 1-2 lessons in religion class that he held.

I think Austrian Catholics are far ahead theologically than some of the fundi US Christians but in traditions Catholics are a bit stupid.

[GuestFellow]

In my visits to various places of worship (Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh) I've only found hardcore hate being preached in particular protestant churches. I did not know what to expect in a Catholic church.

Hardcore hate preaching occurs in Canada protestant churches? O_O That's news to me. Can you give me an example of this hardcore hate preaching?

[MustafaMc]

I am assuming that "we ask others who we have offended or injured to forgive us as well" means that you should speak to those you have wronged and ask their forgiveness directly from them? So it is encouraged to confess your sin to those you have harm with it? But discouraged to talk about your sins to third parties?

Peaceful greetings, glo. Yes, sins can be against other people such as talking badly about them to other people (backbiting), acting toward them in a condescending manner, a husband being abusive to his wife, a wife being disrespectful to her husband, etc. For these offenses we should go to them directly and try to make amends. Other sins are against his own soul by being disobedient to God with no harm to other people such as a man looking lustfully at pictures of women, drinking alcohol, neglecting prayer, etc. For these sins we confess them privately to God and ask directly for His forgiveness.

[MustafaMc]

In my visits to various places of worship (Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh) I've only found hardcore hate being preached in particular protestant churches.

The southern US states, a.k.a the 'Bible Belt', is the absolute worst for this intolerance with Qur'an burning, Masjid burning and vandalism, protests against Masjid buidling, anti-Sharia laws, and hate mongering in churches. These same people also unquestionable support Zionist Israel and the 'War on Terror'.

[Ramadhan]

I'd agree with that. Nobody should be required or even entitled to absolve another of their sins and mistakes. Either God forgives or he doesn't ...
..

I thought christians believe that Jesus (p) absolves human's sins and mistakes and give carte blanche to paradise?

[Pygoscelis]

Hardcore hate preaching occurs in Canada protestant churches? O_O That's news to me. Can you give me an example of this hardcore hate preaching?

I did not witness it in Ontario and doubt it happens much here. I saw it in the US bible belt and then again in Alberta (Canada's version of the bible belt). In Alberta (which really surprised me) the preacher gave a long speech about how those who refuse to follow Jesus and who close their ears to his message are doomed to hell and deserve eternal suffering and separation from God (there was no sense of sorrow for them, more a sense of vengeance) and that we should not associate with them or they will drag us down. He then went into a long homophobic speech about how vile homosexuals are.

[dusk]

I thought christians believe that Jesus (p) absolves human's sins and mistakes and give carte blanche to paradise?

No you got the wrong timeline.
Christians think that there is some kind of inherited sin all the way since adam & eve. Jesus fixed that and absolves those that join him on his way but that still means future sins aren't preabsolved.

[glo]

I thought christians believe that Jesus (p) absolves human's sins and mistakes and give carte blanche to paradise?

No you got the wrong timeline.
Christians think that there is some kind of inherited sin all the way since adam & eve. Jesus fixed that and absolves those that join him on his way but that still means future sins aren't preabsolved.

There are some Christians who believe those things, but this one (and most other Christians I know) doesn't. :p

Very briefly (I am not into lengthy theological debates. I have had too many of them in this forum and it is not why I am here. If anybody wants to ask further questions, you can do so via PM - but forum rules limit me to what I can say and explain about my faith)

Yes, Christians believe that our human sinfulness is a barrier between us and God, and that Jesus came to restore our relationship with God. By overcoming death and raising from the dead himself, he has given us all the opportunity for eternal life. And yes, he absolves our sins if we ask for forgiveness.

Ramadhan, those who believe that all you have to do is say 'I believe' and you are guaranteed entry into paradise, may be in for a nasty shock!
There are plenty of Bible verses (by Jesus himself), which indicate that our behaviour and attitude and conduct in life matter. And that we will be judged accordingly!
We are called to build God's kingdom here in earth and we do that by loving God and loving our neighbours.

[glo]

I'd agree with that. Nobody should be required or even entitled to absolve another of their sins and mistakes. Either God forgives or he doesn't ...

However, there can be something profound and even healing in sharing one's mistakes with another person one trusts. A bit like sharing and off-loading a burden ...

I thought christians believe that Jesus (p) absolves human's sins and mistakes and give carte blanche to paradise?

Brother Ramadhan, whilst I was cooking the evening meal and pondering your comment, it suddenly occured to me that you might think that Christians don't feel the need to ask for forgiveness or repent of their sins?
(If I am mistaken and I have misunderstood your comment, then please forgive me and ignore this post.)

It is common practice in many churches to pray a communal prayer of repentance during the service. Usually with words something like this:

Almighty God,
we have gone our own way,
not loving you as we ought,
nor loving our neighbours as ourselves.
We have sinned against you
in thought, word and deed
and in what we have failed to do.
We deserve your condemnation.
Father, forgive us.
Help us to love you and our neighbours,
and to live for your honour and glory. Amen.

I hope that you can understand from that that repentance and asking for God's forgiveness is very much part of any Christian's daily practice.

If you have been led to believe otherwise, then you really are misinformed.

[sister herb]

Sometimes I go to Catholic mass, I tell priest I just wanna sit and listen even my religion is different.

:statisfie

[Pygoscelis]

I do that with lots of religions, but I never tell them why I'm there. I just try to blend in as one of them.

[sister herb]

To me, with islamic hijab is quite difficult to look as Christian.

Maybe.

;D

[Ramadhan]

No you got the wrong timeline.
Christians think that there is some kind of inherited sin all the way since adam & eve. Jesus fixed that and absolves those that join him on his way but that still means future sins aren't preabsolved.

Care to provide evidence?

Because as I understand it, christians believe that Jesus' spilt blood only absolves the sins of those who proclaimed He is God, therefore non-christians cannot go to paradise because our inherited sins are not absolved.

[Ramadhan]

Brother Ramadhan, whilst I was cooking the evening meal and pondering your comment, it suddenly occured to me that you might think that Christians don't feel the need to ask for forgiveness or repent of their sins?
(If I am mistaken and I have misunderstood your comment, then please forgive me and ignore this post.)

It is common practice in many churches to pray a communal prayer of repentance during the service. Usually with words something like this:

I hope that you can understand from that that repentance and asking for God's forgiveness is very much part of any Christian's daily practice.

If you have been led to believe otherwise, then you really are misinformed.

The one difference between muslims and christians is that christians believe Jesus (p) was God who came down to earth and died to absolve human's inherited sins. While muslims do not believe Jesus (p) was God, and thus christians believe muslims can never go to paradise because God's spilt blood only cover/absolved the sins of christians.

Am I correct in my understanding?

[MustafaMc]

Almighty God,
we have gone our own way,
not loving you as we ought,
nor loving our neighbours as ourselves.
We have sinned against you
in thought, word and deed
and in what we have failed to do.
We deserve your condemnation.
Father, forgive us.
Help us to love you and our neighbours,
and to live for your honour and glory. Amen.

That was a nice prayer and one that I can relate to; however, it strikes me as odd in not mentioning Jesus or the cross. It seems that your Christian faith may be quite different from the Protestant one I grew up with. The concept of atonement versus forgiveness has often puzzled me.

[Logikon]

Third, I noticed the priest mix two cups of liquid into a third, dip a cracker in it, sing to the cracker, and eat it. He then fed other crackers to the parishioners for the eucharist.

It is a good thing there are no blasphmey laws in your country. You have insulted religious practise.

[ardianto]

It is a good thing there are no blasphmey laws in your country. You have insulted religious practise.

I don't think Pygo insulted a religious practice. He just told what he has seen. If is is heard like insulting Catholic practice, that's because he didn't understand what the priest was doing.

[dusk]

To me, with islamic hijab is quite difficult to look as Christian.

Maybe.

But you could cloth yourself as a nun. With the right colors (black outside & white under) and slight changes that should look exactly the same and still abide by all the islamic rules. ;D

I would only do it during carnivals time otherwise it isn't really sincere.

[dusk]

Because as I understand it, christians believe that Jesus' spilt blood only absolves the sins of those who proclaimed He is God, therefore non-christians cannot go to paradise because our inherited sins are not absolved.

I guess the answer to that question depends on who you ask in which denomination.
The people I was taught by (progressive Catholics) they say everybody gets a shot at heaven as long as they live by the peaceful way Jesus wanted. Love your neighbor and offer the other cheek and so on. Embracing Jesus is more meant as embracing the spirit of his teachings not so much the person.
All the more fundamentalist denominations and the reactionary Catholics would put it like you say and argue their way out by I have no clue how. I read some arguments a while back but I don't remember finding them the least bit satisfying. Than again I do not find the basic grasp on reality of people like Ratzinger very satisfying.

Am I correct in my understanding?

With fundi Christians definitely. I couldn't explain any conservative position in any way that makes any sense. After the first sentence I would have a dozen complaints about what doesn't make any sense myself.
religioustolerance .org is a good source I think that compare many of the specific believes.

[sister herb]

But you could cloth yourself as a nun. With the right colors (black outside & white under) and slight changes that should look exactly the same and still abide by all the islamic rules. ;D

I would only do it during carnivals time otherwise it isn't really sincere.

Many people in my city actually think I am nun.

;D

[sister herb]

They actually think I am Greek Cathoholic Nun. Not Roman Catholic.

Sometimes I am too bored to explain that no muslim.

;D

[MustafaMc]

it suddenly occured to me that you might think that Christians don't feel the need to ask for forgiveness or repent of their sins?

Peaceful greetings, glo. I know you don't like to enter into debates, but I am yet confused by the concept of atonement versus forgiveness as I presented in this thread http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1440644 There is also the question if a response can be seen as promoting Christianity, but I would appreciate your perspective.

If you commit a specific sin, then my understanding is that Christians believe that Jesus paid the debt and endured the punishment for that and other sins on the cross. All a person has to do is accept that free gift of salvation by believing Jesus is the Son of God and by accepting his death on the cross, burial and resurrection as the only acceptable means of redemption from sin. As a Christian I had often heard songs and sermons to the effect of 'Jesus paid it all' which conveys a sense of payment of sin debt (atonement) and not forgiveness. Forgiveness is recognizing that one has a debt that is too large to ever be paid and then asking the person to whom that debt is owed to have mercy on you and forgive or erase the debt. Atonement is when someone else steps up and pays the debt for you.

Where does a Christian asking for forgiveness coincide with the cross?

[glo]

^
Forgive me, Mustafa, for not answering your question.
I see that the thread you quote from is 12 pages long. If nobody could answer your question appropriately then, I doubt that I can now.

As I said before:

I am not into lengthy theological debates. I have had too many of them in this forum and it is not why I am here. If anybody wants to ask further questions, you can do so via PM - but forum rules limit me to what I can say and explain about my faith

I have found that circular debates about our faiths only harden our positions and make us less likely to relate to each other as friends and fellow believers in the same God.
At the same time it would be difficult to talk about my faith without coming in conflict with forum rules.

For those reasons I prefer not to get drawn into deeper discussions. I hope you understand.

God's peace to you. :)

[glo]

Third, I noticed the priest mix two cups of liquid into a third, dip a cracker in it, sing to the cracker, and eat it. He then fed other crackers to the parishioners for the eucharist.

I don't think Pygo insulted a religious practice. He just told what he has seen. If is is heard like insulting Catholic practice, that's because he didn't understand what the priest was doing.

I hadn't noticed Pygo's comment about "singing to the cracker". LOL

To be honest, Pygo does not come across like somebody who isn't fairly well informed about stuff, so I don't assume that he really thinks that Catholics sing to crackers ... ;D

More than likely a case of being a bit tongue-in-cheek. (I hope that's an internationally known expression!)


Pygo, there is a (liberal) Christian website/forum called Ship of Fools.
Amongst many other things they have a section called Mystery Worshipper - where people who have attended a church somewhere can give feed-back and rate the service - from how welcome they were made to feel to how long (or boring) the sermon was to how good the coffee was.
You should put your name forward, because you have a great 'outsider angle'! :)

[Pygoscelis]

To be honest, Pygo does not come across like somebody who isn't fairly well informed about stuff, so I don't assume that he really thinks that Catholics sing to crackers ... ;D

No, no, he's right. I did seriously witness a man singing at a cracker. He was looking right at it and singing with passion. And as I understand it the Eucharist doctirne says that the cracker literally becomes Jesus' flesh and the wine literally becomes his blood. So he thought the cracker was listening to him sing. And then he ate it. Is that wrong? If that is wrong I would like to be set straight because I have had many catholics tell me it is so. :)

Pygo, there is a (liberal) Christian website/forum called Ship of Fools.
Amongst many other things they have a section called Mystery Worshipper - where people who have attended a church somewhere can give feed-back and rate the service - from how welcome they were made to feel to how long (or boring) the sermon was to how good the coffee was.

That is a brilliant idea. The name seems rather rude though. I'll have to check it out.

[MustafaMc]

For those reasons I prefer not to get drawn into deeper discussions. I hope you understand.

Yes, I understand completely and I expected this reply. A simple question with no need for a debate, "Do you understand the distinction I am making between atonement and forgiveness and, if so, is there a real difference here, or not?"

[Muhammad]

It seems you need to make more Muslim friends, Pygoscelis, and then we can look forward to hearing how your visit to the Mosque went. :)

[MustafaMc]

It is quite interesting that the opening post by Daldianus on the Belief Corner forum exactly makes the same point I did on the thread I mentioned here earlier.
http://www.beliefcorner.com/showthre...vs-Forgiveness

Quoting Lilly, "Jesus is the sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the whole world. A sacrifice of atonement was needed in order to fulfill justice. Because God has fulfilled justice for the sins of the whole world any of us can come to him and receive forgiveness of sins when we repent and put our trust in him." ... "You mean couldn't God forgive man his wrongdoing without justice being fulfilled? God is just and can be nothing less. God is also merciful and wants to forgive mankind. So he made the way for man to be forgiven and for justice to be upheld. He did this through Christ."... "What conditions are met by man? The only conditions are those God has met due to the fact that he is just. To simply turn a blind eye to wrongdoing is evil. God provided a way for man to be forgiven and for his sins to be atoned for."

Lilly provided the most reasonable explanation and one that is consistent with what I remember from my early years as a Christian in that God is just and therefore requires that sin must be punished. Again, this illustrates the point between atonement and forgiveness that God is incapable of forgiving sin with a clean wipe of the slate as this would be unjust and 'evil' according to Lilly. My understanding is that Jesus' death was the atoning sacrifice that fulfilled God's justice and opened the door for man to seek forgiveness through repentence. The concept of presenting a sacrifice or an atonement before sin can be forgiven is foreign to Islam; however, my understanding is that when we make du'a for forgiveness it is best for us to first praise Allah (swt) with His most beautiful names and attributes before we ask Him for forgiveness.

I respect my Christian friend's reluctance to debate and only wish to clarify my understanding of the Christian perspective on this topic. It is quite troubling to me that I am having trouble understanding the Christian perspective on this issue. I am very nearsighted and it is like I am wearing someone else's glasses now when I try to understand Christian theology.

[Amigo]

Forgiveness is recognizing that one has a debt that is too large to ever be paid and then asking the person to whom that debt is owed to have mercy on you and forgive or erase the debt. Atonement is when someone else steps up and pays the debt for you.

Right, it is erasing. But can that person truly erase the debt?

[Amigo]

Where does a Christian asking for forgiveness coincide with the cross?

Asking for forgiveness is asking for erasing the cross and all wrongs around it. There is cross in every human's life. A kind of combination of the two crosses (Jesus cross: when we suffer innocently due to the sins of others + repentant thief cross: suffering we accept as just due to our own failings) or the third (unrepentant thief cross: sufferings due to our own sins but we refuse to ask forgiveness). Jesus forgives/erases the sins of the two crosses: he can connect to any possible suffering and the dead (he died to reach the dead) then he can heal all of them.

[Riana17]

Asking for forgiveness is asking for erasing the cross and all wrongs around it. There is cross in every human's life. A kind of combination of the two crosses (Jesus cross: when we suffer innocently due to the sins of others + repentant thief cross: suffering we accept as just due to our own failings) or the third (unrepentant thief cross: sufferings due to our own sins but we refuse to ask forgiveness). Jesus forgives/erases the sins of the two crosses: he can connect to any possible suffering and the dead (he died to reach the dead) then he can heal all of them.

Hmmmm

Welcome back ya amigo, long time

as for your reply, you sound like a Priest to me :) we are glad you are back

[Veritas]

So, I visited a cahothilic mass and I noticed a few things that surprised me.

First, I noticed there were no copies of the bible in the pews. There were only song books.

Second, I noticed there was a fold down bench and we were to kneel a lot of the time. That wasn't there in the other christian churches I have been to.

Third, I noticed the priest mix two cups of liquid into a third, dip a cracker in it, sing to the cracker, and eat it. He then fed other crackers to the parishioners for the eucharist.

Fourth, There was a really nice part where he told us all to look around us and shake hands or otherwise say hi to everybody around us. That was a nice surprise.

Fifth, There wasn't really any hate being preached. That was nice to see (or not see).

It is heartening to hear that you attended a Catholic Mass. In Christianity, the Catholic Church, is the "Universal Church ... the "One True Church". It's western arm is the Catholic Church (about 1.2 billion), and its Eastern Arm (about 300 million) is the Orthodox Church.

Re the Bibles, that may have been the church you went to. Bibles are often found in the pews. It is true that the Catholic Church is not a "bible literal" church like certain Protestant sects ... the US Fundamentalist Christians for instance. Scripture is always read out in mass, and examples of Christ like behaviour from saints, the Virgin Mary etc., are often spoken about to give examples how parishioners can follow that behaviour, and "walk in the shoes of Christ".

Yes, Catholic mass is very "up and down" ... there is a lot of kneeling for prayer. Catholics always kneel to pray ... whether at mass, lighting a candle in church (usually in front of a statue of Christ) to pray to God. There is a pattern to Catholic mass, which if you went to mass anywhere in the world, would always be followed.

The Eucharist. This is where we take the body and blood of Christ into our own bodies. To be at one with him. The holy wine (red wine) symbolises his blood. The "host" (a thin wafer) is given to the parishioner (but only if they have been confirmed into the Church) with open palms, the parishioners say "Amen" to the priest who gave him / her the host. Depending on the church, the parishioner can drink the holy wine from the cup ... hygiene though will often see the practice replaced with the host being dipped into the wine.

Drinking / dipping the wine is purely optional ... but a confirmed parishioner will always take the host. The host is placed on the tongue and left to dissolve. It is not chewed or eaten. It is very plain, cardboard like unleavened bread.

The sign of peace. Yes, it is a beautiful part of mass. Catholicism is a church of the people for the people. It promotes peace and love for our fellow man. It is where we welcome our brothers and sisters into our hearts, in the presence of God.

Catholicism does not preach hate. Go to a US Fundamentalist or Evangelical Church if you want that. Catholicism at its most base level promotes as its prime doctrine to consider the needs of other people before oneself, and to be there and to help people when they most need it.

The Christmas mass I attended on Monday, actually preached interfaith bonding with Islam. The homily discussed the story portrayed in Of Gods and Men. The homily wasn't highlighting the eventual murder of French Trappist Monks in Algeria by Islamic militants, but rather the initial bond they formed when injured militants turned up at the monastery seeking medical help from the monks' clinic. The militants entered the monastery with weapons, and were told "this is a house of God, and weapons are not welcomed". A scriptural recitation followed, where the bible and Quran were traded, and Jesus respected as a prophet.

The militants put down their weapons. This occurred by scripture and a shared love of God.

I myself have witnessed some real interfaith discussion and a willingness to make brothers with Catholics. I met brother Scimitar on another message board, and the friendship we formed has turned to us seeing each others as brothers. Real brothers. Catholicism is a faith built on peace and love. The kindness and love I have received has been returned in droves.

You won't find any form of hostility towards islam from the Catholic Church ... rather the opposite ... being a real genuine desire to build bridges and close gaps between Christianity and Islam through a shared love of God.

[MustafaMc]

Veritas,I really liked your post. I grew up as a Baptist in the US 'Bible Belt' and can relate that what you wrote is true.

Re the Bibles, that may have been the church you went to. Bibles are often found in the pews. It is true that the Catholic Church is not a "bible literal" church like certain Protestant sects ... the US Fundamentalist Christians for instance. Scripture is always read out in mass, and examples of Christ like behaviour from saints, the Virgin Mary etc., are often spoken about to give examples how parishioners can follow that behaviour, and "walk in the shoes of Christ".

Historically, wasn't the Latin Vulgate read during mass without a literal translation into the language understood by the parishoners? Also, weren't parishoners discouraged from owning translations of the Bible into their language? I like how the Catholic 'sermon' (homily?) is more about following the example of Jesus as compared to worshipping him as 'God Incarnate' among Protestants.

Yes, Catholic mass is very "up and down" ... there is a lot of kneeling for prayer. Catholics always kneel to pray ... whether at mass, lighting a candle in church #usually in front of a statue of Christ# to pray to God. There is a pattern to Catholic mass, which if you went to mass anywhere in the world, would always be followed.

Interesting about the commonality of Catholic worship around the world. Similarly, I can pray alongside Muslims anywhere in the world in the same manner and reciting the same words in Arabic.

Catholicism does not preach hate. Go to a US Fundamentalist or Evangelical Church if you want that. Catholicism at its most base level promotes as its prime doctrine to consider the needs of other people before oneself, and to be there and to help people when they most need it.

Yes, the Protestants/Evangelicals are more intollerant of Muslims, but starangely they hold Jews as God's chosen people and agree with whatever Zionist Israel does in Palestine even though their actions are in conflict with what Jesus taught. What is the Catholic opinion about the state of Israel?

The Christmas mass I attended on Monday, actually preached interfaith bonding with Islam. The homily discussed the story portrayed in Of Gods and Men. The homily wasn't highlighting the eventual murder of French Trappist Monks in Algeria by Islamic militants, but rather the initial bond they formed when injured militants turned up at the monastery seeking medical help from the monks' clinic. The militants entered the monastery with weapons, and were told "this is a house of God, and weapons are not welcomed". A scriptural recitation followed, where the bible and Quran were traded, and Jesus respected as a prophet. The militants put down their weapons. This occurred by scripture and a shared love of God.

I would have liked to attend that mass as well.

I myself have witnessed some real interfaith discussion and a willingness to make brothers with Catholics. I met brother Scimitar on another message board, and the friendship we formed has turned to us seeing each others as brothers. Real brothers. Catholicism is a faith built on peace and love. The kindness and love I have received has been returned in droves.

You won't find any form of hostility towards islam from the Catholic Church ... rather the opposite ... being a real genuine desire to build bridges and close gaps between Christianity and Islam through a shared love of God.

I can certainly appreciate expressions of respect and tolerance between different faiths. I have sincere feelings of affection for some Christians due to my perceptions of their love for God and their fellow human beings despite cultural, racial, national and religious differences. I hope it does not offend you that beyond that level I am hesitant to feel they are my brothers and sisters in the same manner as I do Muslims who share my faith. That is due to my perception of Christian association of Jesus with God which I see as a most grievous sin. I can appreciate efforts at interfaith dialog to a point due to mutual respect and tolerance, but I believe ultimately it pushes us to 'water down' and compromise on our essential beliefs. For example, I agree with "Jesus respected as a prophet", but I believe that you hold certain additional beliefs about him that no Muslim can accept. I can see the benefit to mutual humanitarian efforts if religion can be left out of these outreach efforts.

[Veritas]

Thank you for the post Mustafa. I will address your comments when I'm in a pc. Too much tapping on my phone!
I will address your comment on brothers. Scimitar and I struck up a friendship on another board. We are similar people, with each of us having a real fire in our bellies. That friendship grew and firmed. We have shared an awful lot with each either.

I understand that Moslems and Christians will not see each other in the same light in a religious sense. For personal reasons which I won't delve into I asked scimitar if we could see each other as actual brothers in a family sense ... blood brothers ... understanding that it wouldn't be in a religious context.

I hope that makes sense.

[Abz2000]

I went to one abt 2004-2005, I recited surah fatihah when they stood up and did their prayers to a certain person they considered to be "god", there was a lot of cheering and clapping when the Easter egg chocs were handed out to the kids, it was interesting but the looming idol of a prophet over the head was quite intimidating,
and though I know it's meant to be serious, this verse I randomly opened from the Quran made me smile:

وَما كانَ صَلاتُهُم عِندَ البَيتِ إِلّا مُكاءً وَتَصدِيَةً ۚ فَذوقُوا العَذابَ بِما كُنتُم تَكفُرونَ

Their prayer at the House (of Allah) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (Its only answer can be), \"Taste ye the chastisement because ye blasphemed.\"

Quran 8:35

[MustafaMc]

I asked scimitar if we could see each other as actual brothers in a family sense ... blood brothers ... understanding that it wouldn't be in a religious context.

Veritas, I meant no offense. I hope my comments about feeling affection for some Christians, including glo and Eric H, helps you understand my position. There are various levels of emotional intimacy between people and, for those who are deeply religious, a shared faith is essential. Even a husband and wife or father and son of different faiths lack in this arena if religion is important to at least one of them. As a Muslim I have an obligation to maintain the ties of the womb, but there is something lacking when family members do not share what I consider to be an essential element of my personal identity. I can respect and appreciate you and other Christians for the apparent sincerity of your faith, but I have a hard time feeling the closeness I do to other Muslims. I went on hajj to Mecca in 2010 and I met people from all over the world. Although I am an American and did not attempt to hide that fact, I felt accepted by and close to the people I met even a single time. In contrast, I feel a distance with my family and coworkers who are not Muslims.

[ardianto]

I remember my childhood in elemantary school when my teachers often punished me with stood in front of classroom. I very often got this punishment and always because the same mistake ..... fighting with other students. :D

But I never felt resentment to my teachers because I knew, they punished me because they didn't want me grew up to aggressive person. And they did not only punished me, but also gave me advice to have patience and 'cool head' in resolving conflict. Later I could stop my bad habit in solve the conflict by fist.

I could feel that they are good teachers. Honestly, I could feel they love me and always care on me. They always asked me when they felt I had problem in study. Sometime they came to my home in the evening and talked with my parents. They always walked on feet because they did not have vehicle. All of my teachers in that elementary school were unmarried females, and they lived together in a dorms.

This is my childhood memory when I studied in an elementary school that ran by a foundation from Franciscan Order. This is why I always respect the nuns, although I'm a Muslim.

[Veritas]

In an effort to bridge some learning gaps between Catholics and Muslims, I've posted below an explanation of the mass. This is not intended to be inflammatory in the slightest. I'm posting what Catholics do and believe.

Welcome to a brief explanation of the "Mass" (or the "Eucharist" ).

This is a short but in depth look at the largely unknown treasure of the Roman Catholic Mass. The Mass is described as the most powerful prayer on earth. That is because it is the Prayer and Sacrifice of Jesus Christ the "Lamb of God" on Mount Calvary nearly two thousand years ago. His sacrifice is made present on the altar under the appearance of "Bread and Wine". At the end of Mass we can receive Jesus raised from the dead into our souls.

Adam and Eve

Eve stole God's fruit from the tree and gave it to Adam to eat and so helped cause the "Fall" of mankind,. But in the "Redemption" the New Adam Jesus sacrifices ( offers back to the Father ) the Divine Fruit ( Himself ) on the Tree of the Cross at Calvary and in the Mass Jesus the New Adam and the Divine Fruit gives Himself to the Church which is the New Eve for her to Eat. At His Last Supper Jesus first gave Himself to the Church and on the following morning He was put on the Tree of the Cross. At the foot of the Tree of the Cross Mary the human New Eve offered the Sacrifice of Jesus the New Adam to God for the sins of mankind. Jesus in the Mass gave His one Sacrifice to the Church the Mystical New Eve for her to offer back to the Father through time until the End of time. Beneath the Tree of the Cross Mary offered the sacrifice of Jesus to God and the Church also offers His sacrifice on Calvary to God in the Sacrifice of the Mass.

The most powerful prayer for Mercy on earth and in Heaven.

Mass is the most powerful prayer we can make. We can pray to God at any time and anywhere but at Mass we can pray to God, with God and in God dying on the cross at Calvary nearly 2,000 years ago. At the "consecration" of Mass God makes Good Friday present on the altar. At Mass we can offer the sufferings and Sacrifice of Jesus who is the "Lamb Of God" to God the Father in atonement for the Sins of the World. Later on then in the Mass we can also receive Jesus risen from the dead really present in the Sacrament of Holy Communion. ("Sacrifices go up, Sacraments come down" Fr Joseph Moran) At "Mass" we enter Heaven with Jesus in the presence of all the Angels and Saints as He offered Himself to the Father on Good Friday 2,000 years ago.

Briefly let us look at the main stages of the Mass.

Repentance

We first repent of our sins. At the start of Mass we repent of all our sins by praying the Confiteor, "I confess" or similar prayers. (Mortal or Grave sins (These are very serious deadly sins.) need the "Sacrament of Confession" and the lesser "venial" sins are forgiven by sincere prayer.)

Word of God

Then we hear the "Word of God" in the Scripture Readings which nourishes us and the priest explains them in his Homily. Jesus is really present speaking to us in His word.

Offertory

Soon after this follows the Offertory where we can offer ourselves and all mankind (the living, the dying and the souls in Purgatory) in union with the bread and wine being offered by the priest to God. The drop of water the priest adds to the chalice is a symbol of our offering of ourselves and all Mankind. The Holy Spirit will soon at the "Consecration" change the bread and wine into the real Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ the victim of Calvary.

Consecration

After the "Offertory" follows the Consecration which means: to make Holy. So at the "Offertory" we offered ourselves to God and now we can unite our self-offering to the self-offering of Jesus at Calvary on Good Friday. We pray that the Holy Spirit will change our hearts and the hearts of all those we are offering into better members of the Mystical Body of Christ. Jesus through the words of the priest sends the Holy Spirit down to make the bread and wine into His Sacrifice of Himself. At the Last Supper Jesus totally offered Himself and His passion to the Father and now the Consecration makes His Self-offering present. (St Faustina in her diary (No 684) recounts how she saw Jesus at the Last Supper at the moment He cosecrated the bread and wine and she could see His total offering of Himself). Usually the Altar Server rings the bell to help us to focus on this Great Miracle and usually all present kneel down. The Body and Blood of Jesus are now in the two separate vessels (Ciborioum and Chalice) on the Altar signifying for us the way that the Blood of Jesus separated from his Flesh as He bled and died on the cross. The Holy Spirit can help change our hearts and everyone that we offer at this time. This can be a time of great mercy for the world. We can unite our daily good deeds and sufferings now with Jesus on the cross to give them more value and power before the throne of God. Elijah's great miracle on Mount Carmel (See 1 Kings 18;17-38) where the Fire from Heaven consumed the offering was a symbol of this part of the Mass.

Our Father

After we say what is called the great "Amen" in reply to the Priest's "Through Him, With Him and in Him" prayer we then say the "Our Father" to sum up all our petitions. We should try to remember that we are saying it in the presence of Heaven. At the Last Supper Jesus probably said the "Our Father" with His Apostles. Jesus by His Passion, Death and Resurrection Lived and fulfilled each of the seven petitions of the "Our Father". He obtained for us this privilege of calling God "Our Father". The Passion of Jesus was the Greatest Prayer He taught His followers. In His Passion Jesus "Hallowed" the Name of His Father. In His Passion He started the coming of the Father's "Kingdom" (which is also His Church). He showed us how to do the "will" of God as it is done in Heaven. Through His Passion, death and Ressurection Jesus who is Himself the "Bread of Life" made Himself present in "Holy Communion" as the "daily Bread" of His followers. By His Passion He obtained "Forgiveness for our Tresspasses" and the graces we need to be freed from "Temptation" and "Delivered from evil". At the Mass we are present as Jesus perfectly fulfilled the "Our Father" for us.

The Sign of Peace

The Priest may now ask us to offer the "Sign of Peace" to those near us but more especially we should offer it in our heart to anyone in our lives we have not forgiven or do not like.

"Take and Eat"

The first Adam was told not to take and eat God's fruit from the tree but now Jesus the God-Man as the New Adam gives mankind Himself because He is Divine Fruit from the Cross. The first Adam must have told Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree ( She was not created when God told Adam not to eat from the tree ) but now the New Adam tells the Church which is the New Eve to "Take and Eat" the New Fruit which we call Holy Commuinion.

The Resurrection

Then after we say the "Lamb of God" prayers the Priest adds a fragment of the "Host" (Christ's Body) to the chalice of His Precious Blood. This action signifies the Resurrection of Jesus and shows us that Jesus is present "risen" from the dead in the Host and the Chalice. We can now receive Jesus "risen from the dead" into our hearts in Holy Communion. St Paul in 1 Cor11: 27-29 seems to have believed in this real presence of Jesus in Holy Communion because he said "the person who eats and drinks without recognising the Body is eating and drinking his own condemnation."

Mission

At the end of Mass we are sent on a mission "to love and serve the Lord". One of the best ways to do this is to love and serve the Lord in our neighbours. We can imitate Mary who after she had received Jesus at the "Annunciation" brought Him to visit her cousin Elizabeth. The word "Mass" comes from the Latin word "Missa" which means sent as we are now "sent" on mission at the end of Mass. It is good to spend some time thanking the Holy Trinity for their goodness to us.

Prayers we can say during the Consecration.

Jesus taught these prayers to St Faustina for the Divine Mercy Chaplet which is said on Rosary Beads.

"Eternal Father we offer you the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of your dearly Beloved Son our Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

"For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world."

Three o'Clock Prayer

(Jesus asked St Faustina to say this prayer at 3 O'clock but it is also very appropriate during the Consecration of the Mass.)

"You expired Jesus,
but the source of life gushed forth for souls
and an Ocean of Mercy
opened up for the whole world.
O Fount of Life,
unfathomable Divine Mercy,
envelop the whole world
and empty Yourself out upon us."
"O Blood and Water which gushed forth
from the Heart of Jesus
as a fount of Mercy for us,
I trust in You"

[haroonqureshi89]

I used to go church when I was younger, their ibada makes no sense at all!