France bans protests (Is there freedom of speech in the west?)

[جوري]

French premises abroad closed; Paris on alert
* Cartoons have stoked Muslim fury over anti-Islam film
* French Muslims urge calm at Friday prayers
By Nicholas Vinocur and Tom Heneghan
PARIS, Sept 21 (Reuters) - France banned protests on Friday against cartoons published by a satirical weekly denigrating Islam's Prophet Mohammad as part of a security clamp-down while prayers took place across the Muslim world.
The country's Muslim population, drawn largely from ex-colonies in North and West Africa, shrugged off the controversy as imams in mosques denounced the pictures but urged their followers to remain calm.
The drawings have stoked a furore over an anti-Islam film made in California that has provoked sometimes violent protests in several Muslim countries, including attacks on U.S. and other Western embassies, the killing of the U.S. envoy to Libya and a suicide bombing in Afghanistan.
Interior Minister Manuel Valls said prefects had orders to prohibit any protest and to crack down if the ban was challenged.
"There will be strictly no exceptions. Demonstrations will be banned and broken up," he told a news conference in the southern port city of Marseille.
The main body representing Muslims in France appealed for calm as the weekly Charlie Hebdo put a new print run of the cartoons featuring a naked Prophet Mohammad on the news stands.
Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Muslim Council, described both the film and the cartoons as "acts of aggression" but urged French Muslims not to protest in the streets.
"I repeat the council's call not to protest. Any protest could be hijacked and counterproductive," he told radio RFI.
An estimated 8,000 Muslims gathered peacefully for Friday prayers at a temporary prayer hall in northern Paris set up in a former fire department depot. So many turned out that hundreds had to pray in the rain in the adjacent parking lot.
"This demonstrates that the vast majority of the Muslim community is not made up of extremists," said Abderahmane Dahmane, spokesman for the local association that runs the prayer hall, one of the largest in the Paris region.
"The majority will not play the game of the hotheads."
At prayers in the northeast Paris suburb of La Courneuve, delivery driver Hakim Ardjou, 42, also rejected violence.
"We just want our message to be heard: this sort of insult is a disgrace, but we will keep calm."
PUBLIC APPROVES PROTEST BAN
French embassies, schools and cultural centres in some 20 Muslim countries were closed on Friday, the Muslim day of prayer, in a precaution ordered by the French government.
French media showed footage of an embassy protected by soldiers and barbed wire in former French colony Tunisia, where the Islamist-led government has also banned protests over the cartoons.
Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said there had been anti-French demonstrations in Afghanistan, Egypt and Indonesia, but there were no incidents against French nationals.
"In a certain number of countries, the measures (closures) will be kept in place as a precaution on Saturday and Sunday," Fabius told journalists.
Police were on alert in the French capital after protests planned by some Muslim groups were banned.
Charlie Hebdo, an anti-establishment weekly whose Paris offices are under police protection, defied critics to rush out another run of the publication that sold out on Wednesday.
It says the cartoons are designed simply to poke fun at the uproar over the film and on Friday hit back at critics accusing it of deliberately stirring controversy to sell newspapers.
"If Charlie Hebdo wanted to make a quick buck, it would not produce Charlie Hebdo," it said on its Twitter feed.
The publication has a print run of around 70,000 but its Mohammad cartoons have made front-page news in a country which has both the largest Muslim and Jewish populations in Europe - an estimated five million Muslims and 600,000 Jews.
President Francois Hollande's government has sought to balance a cherished tradition of freedom of expression with security concerns, denouncing Charlie Hebdo as irresponsible.
"When you are free, in a country like ours, you always have to measure the impact of your words," French European Affairs Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said.
A survey by TNS Sofres for i-Tele news channel showed 58 percent thought freedom of expression was a fundamental right, and that "freedom to caricature" was part of that.
Yet an even higher 71 percent of the roughly 1,000 people interviewed on Thursday approved of the ban on protests against the cartoons. France has a proud tradition of street protest.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/0...8KLI5W20120921

[Aprender]

This is very hypocritical of them to do this. So Muslims in France aren't allowed to prostest against cartoons but if people wanted to protest against something else then it's OK...

This is wrong.

[جوري]

Yup!

It is fun though to watch the morons on board try to justify another ill executed attempt by the west to point out how closed minded Muslims are in comparison with their oh so free minds.

:w:

[dusk]

I would argue the reactions are wise and at the end of the day it won't be the crazy ones dominating the picture.

"The majority will not play the game of the hotheads."
...
It says the cartoons are designed simply to poke fun at the uproar over the film and on Friday hit back at critics accusing it of deliberately stirring controversy to sell newspapers.
....
"I repeat the council's call not to protest. Any protest could be hijacked and counterproductive," he told radio RFI.
...
An estimated 8,000 Muslims gathered peacefully for Friday prayers at a temporary prayer hall in northern Paris set up in a former fire department depot. So many turned out that hundreds had to pray in the rain in the adjacent parking lot.

to prostest against cartoons but if people wanted to protest against something else then it's OK

Unless French law has some very special sauce the only justification is that it is a temporary ban because of an expectation of violence and damage. If they don't know that they have enough police to handle it when it is full grown they can ban it for public protection.
You should know how much preparation goes into some soccer games when they gather up all CCP for a handful of lunatics a few days in advance.

France has a proud tradition of street protest.

I wonder if that is supposed to be ironic. The banlieu riots in 2005 weren't pretty. There is definitely a potential for violence.

I think it is wise and in this case really better for both sides.

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[جوري]

I would argue the reactions are wise and at the end of the day it won't be the crazy ones dominating the picture.

Of course they're wise, perfectly timed patterns of one instigatory actions against Muslims in succession!

Unless French law has some very special sauce the only justification is that it is a temporary ban because of an expectation of violence and damage. If they don't know that they have enough police to handle it when it is full grown they can ban it for public protection.

There's nothing temporary about French Islamophobia, one only need to look at the overnight laws to ban Niqaab to understand the nature and the depth of this hatred. Or do you not find that hate speech to be a motivator for violence as well?

You should know how much preparation goes into some soccer games when they gather up all CCP for a handful of lunatics a few days in advance.
I wonder if that is supposed to be ironic. The banlieu riots in 2005 weren't pretty. There is definitely a potential for violence.

This is irrelevant- for starters, this isn't a game, but a very well contrived and planned psychological warfare!

I think it is wise and in this case really better for both sides.

We've already established that western sensibilities are built on hypocrisy and one sided terminology which is in fact antithetical to the so called values of tolerance, individualism and freedom of speech or under whatever guise since your brand applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do!

best,

[dusk]

For all those that forgot.
2005 the in french suburbs they looted, burn cars, robbed and completely went of the rails.
It was largely disillusioned immigrants in the poort suburbs who are probably not any better off today. Many of them come from Algier and Tunisia and are Muslims. They might only be waiting for a reason to go off the rails again.

It would be something different if Germany did something similar with no such history or population in ungoverned districts.

To you everything is black & white no grey matter. There are often good reasons why politicians do things and they do listen to multiple voices. From the sound of it many Muslim officials don't seem to disagree with the assessment of the situation and have probably had a chat with the government.

[جوري]

For all those that forgot.
2005 the in french suburbs they looted, burn cars, robbed and completely went of the rails.
It was largely disillusioned immigrants in the poort suburbs who are probably not any better off today. Many of them come from Algier and Tunisia and are Muslims. They might only be waiting for a reason to go off the rails again.

It would be something different if Germany did something similar with no such history or population in ungoverned districts.

To you everything is black & white no grey matter. There are often good reasons why politicians do things and they do listen to multiple voices. From the sound of it many Muslim officials don't seem to disagree with the assessment of the situation and have probably had a chat with the government.

Well then it is prudent not to persist with a frivolous task that will reap implications you can't cope with. It is never a one sided action is it?
This is freedom and that is freedom, you don't get to stratify them based on your understanding of what those gray areas are!

[dusk]

There's nothing temporary about French Islamophobia, one only need to look at the overnight laws to ban Niqaab to understand the nature and the depth of this hatred.

France is also the most secular country in all of europe. The history ever since the revolution was a big pushing back on all religions. Way more than German, Spain or the UK. They wanted to rid themselves of the clerus. It is not just Islamophobia though that is probably also a part of any such country.

[جوري]

France is also the most secular country in all of europe. The history ever since the revolution was a big pushing back on all religions. Way more than German, Spain or the UK. They wanted to rid themselves of the clerus. It is not just Islamophobia though that is probably also a part of any such country.

You're telling me this why? Secularism by its very design should be all inclusive at least that's what they proclaim and it is the sort of design they'd like to export to the world as to be more accommodating of minorities. Freedom of doesn't mean freedom from! or wouldn't it be easier to just admit the double standard and hypocrisy?

[Aprender]

I wonder if that is supposed to be ironic. The banlieu riots in 2005 weren't pretty. There is definitely a potential for violence.

This is what I am concerned with though. Do you have any other knowledge of an event taking place in France where the government banned the protests of offensive materials to certain groups of people?

I'm not as familiar with French laws as I am with United States laws so I can't reference any past French court rulings that take precedence in this matter at the moment.

I agree that right now it would most likely end up being hurtful to Muslims in France to protest against the cartoons right now. All it takes maybe is one or two idiots to come into the crowd and end up hurting more people or causing more harm--even if the Muslims were to protest peacefully against the cartoons. At this point it most likely will be counter productive to the Western image of Muslims as a whole.

But I think it's just very strange and hypocritical to take away this right from a group citing possible violence as with many protests there is always the potential for violence. You noted one instance above. I can understand why Tunisia and other countries would ban this but in France's case I don't agree with the justification for this ruling. Perhaps some stipulations for crowd control, permits to protest (that might get approved a month later) but not an outright ban. And even then it's fine if these "Muslim leaders" in the France still recommend that people don't use those avenues to protest the cartoons but the option would at least still be there even if somewhat limited.

Do you know of any other group in France that has been banned from protesting? Even historically back to WWI and earlier? I'd like to do some reading to compare and contrast the circumstances of these situations.

[Independent]

Do you know of any other group in France that has been banned from protesting?

The most famous protest since WW2 would be the Sorbonne student riots of 1968. The Government tried to closed the University and then block the students off from accessing the area, which led to a huge riot. As protests spread across the country President De Gaulle feared civil war and the Government was brought to the brink of collapse.

[Banu_Hashim]

I suddenly have no plans of visiting France. Ever.

Incidentally, is anyone else boycotting Google and Youtube on Monday and Tuesday. I was told by a friend this is supposed to be happening by Muslims worldwide... If ALL muslims did this, it would make a difference.

[جوري]

It is a dump I've been there twice and have no plans of repeating it either!

[Banu_Hashim]

^If been there twice before as well, both day trips. Nothing special.

[جوري]

well mine came with Montezuma revenge given their crappy overrated food!
I spent all three days on the first trip visiting various bathrooms and the second time was no different although thankfully it was shorter!
plus what I remember of the people is their over all poor hygiene & their pretenciousness if you don't communicate in french.

:w:

[dusk]

This is what I am concerned with though. Do you have any other knowledge of an event taking place in France where the government banned the protests of offensive materials to certain groups of people?

I'm not as familiar with French laws as I am with United States laws so I can't reference any past French court rulings that take precedence in this matter at the moment.

I have some french friends but I only learn German law and some US when I studied there. The ban afaik can only be justified because of reasonable expectations of violence and damage. It is the same in Germany and I think almost all countries. You usually need a permit for any protest. The police checks if who much crowd control is need and tries to provide it both for the protection of neighbours, buildings and members of the protest. If it exceeds their possibilities or they cannot deliver in time they can not grant the permit. Right now they simply said we won't grant any for the moment because it is difficult to administer and once a few legal ones start here or there a lot of others join from different unsupervised locations who never register. And then it can get ugly.
Legally it is more of a notification than a permit because in most cases pretty much any ought to be granted and it is the duty of the police to provide their protection. I am no lawyer.

All it takes maybe is one or two idiots to come into the crowd and end up hurting more people or causing more harm--even if the Muslims were to protest peacefully against the cartoons. At this point it most likely will be counter productive to the Western image of Muslims as a whole.

I think the fear is also that a lot of young angry people would simply join in, who have no interest in religion or don't care about the cause. It might be hijacked as they say.

Do you know of any other group in France that has been banned from protesting? Even historically back to WWI and earlier? I'd like to do some reading to compare and contrast the circumstances of these situations.

In France no. I only know of local ones. Currently they blocked some Blockupy in Frankfurt because of evidence that some people intend to join that don't mean to keep it peaceful. Often they are Zones around G8 that are off limits.
I think France given the makeup of the banlieus and the 2005 event is a bit of a special case and the magnitude of a countrywide ban. Given that those that would really make everything go awry probably wouldn't care much about the religion and the cause of the protests anyway it doesn't seem all that hyprocritical to me.
I don't know the exact laws for what you need but in German law freedom of assembly can only be banned in special single cases that are individually reviewed and never permanently(as in put into a law). For each case there is the principle of proportionality to consider and some other stuff. Well courts and judges are responsible for this stuff.

[Aprender]

Well courts and judges are responsible for this stuff.

Yeah, that's what makes this tricky because I'm looking at this ban from the way U.S. laws regarding freedom of assembly are carried out and the constitutionality of those laws.

I find it hypocritical for different reasons and that's because of my background in studying the U.S. laws but that's France for you. Can't compare the U.S. to France in that realm. I think it would have been better if they'd placed some temporary restrictions on protesting instead of outright banning a group from a right that people have in the country. Even though the "Muslim leader" cited in the story urged Muslims not to protest anyway, I still think the right to protest, even with some temporary restrictions, should have been an option and not outright banning it, regardless if they wanted to use the temporarily limited right to protest it anyway.

It makes no difference though what we think here. What is done is done and in shaa Allah no one else gets hurt.

But since it seems that there are no instances of this happening in France specifically in the past then we'll have to let future events determine how other groups in France are treated in similar situations.

[Mustafa2012]

Any attempt of insulting Islam or trying to dis-credit it in any way will always back-fire against the people or organizations initiating it.

History has proven it. Statistics have proven it and still continue to prove it.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. More women are accepting Islam as their way of life because they realise that The Shari'ah is the only system of giving them their rights.

The more that you (non muslims) try to insult us and defame our Prophets and religious symbols, the more it will cause muslims around the world to pay attention to their religion and defend it in every way possible. And the more non muslims will realise the truth when they investigate whether the lies are true or not.

In the Qur'aan, Allaah told us that Satan promised that he will try to mislead every one of the creation from The Straight Path but Allaah has promised victory for the muslims, the true believers and those who are sincere to Allaah.

It is written in our books and in destiny that we will be victorious one way or the other.

So go ahead (you shayateen) continue to try to mislead us if you think you can.

Insha Allaah it will only make us stronger.

[truthseeker63]

No there is no freedom of speech in the West.