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جوري
10-02-2012, 11:40 PM
Cassidy Goodson, 14, has been charged with first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse.



A 14-year-old is accused of choking her newborn to death while the baby was still attached to her by the umbilical cord.
Cassidy Goodson of Lakeland, Fla., is charged with first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse, according to the Ledger.
Goodson gave birth to a boy in the bathroom of her home on Sept. 19, ABC News reports.
Police say the high school freshman ultimately used scissors to pry the baby out of her body and into the toilet. Lifting the baby out of the toilet, Goodson "placed her hands on the infant's neck and squeezed until he wasn't moving or breathing any longer," according to a statement released by Polk County Sheriff's Office on Friday.
Goodson allegedly killed the child because she "didn't know what to do with it," officials told WTSP.
Goodson had reportedly been wearing baggy clothes to hide from her family that she was pregnant. Two aunts suspected the teen was pregnant, but the girl's mother, Teresa Goodson, "was in complete denial," Sheriff Grady Judd told the Ledger.
As evidence that she wasn't pregnant, Cassidy Goodson had shown her mother two home pregnancy tests that turned up negative. However, the teen had conducted the tests completely alone.

Three days after the birth, the Sheriff's Office received a call reporting that Teresa Goodson, Cassidy Goodson's mother, had found a dead baby inside a shoe box in her home. Teresa Goodson said she found the body when she noticed an odor coming from her daughter's bedroom.
Judd believes that Cassidy Goodson's young age should be taken into account. "Let's remember she is a child," he said. "Where was her support system?"
Officials are considering charging adults who may have known about the pregnancy and kept it a secret. Prosecutors are have not yet decided whether to charge Cassidy Goodson as an adult.
Investigators are currently trying to determine the baby's father.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...ef=mostpopular

:(
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IslamicRevival
10-03-2012, 12:04 AM
And they say were living in the 'best of times'. Poor girl, I cant help feeling sorry. We live in a world where its all about sex, drugs and rock & roll, its thrown in our faces daily and unfortunately she's a victim of the ills of society...a society which has degraded beyond belief.
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Aprender
10-03-2012, 12:11 AM
:( Read it this morning. Such an awful thing.
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جوري
10-03-2012, 12:34 AM
I think the part of prying him with scissors then choking him is what bothered me most. Callous.. she could have just dropped him somewhere they have programs where you can just drop them no questions asked.. it is unbelievable :(
Come speak to me about how we 'hate their freedoms'
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MartyrX
10-03-2012, 12:37 AM
Disgusting.
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Riana17
10-03-2012, 04:38 AM
Harram aleyk, she was very confused. May Allah give her another chance to live a better life.
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Marina-Aisha
10-03-2012, 05:39 AM
I'm sorry but am I the only one that feel sorry for that poor baby? Poor girl? I do t think so, she knew what she was doing if she old enough to have sex and murder her baby then she can go be trailed as adult. She could have drop the baby at church or hospital but she choose to murder.
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جوري
10-03-2012, 05:48 AM
I don't feel sorry for her she was callous prying him out with scissors and choking him? We're supposed to relate or sympathize with that?
They're reaping the fruits of a morally degenerate society old enough for sex but not old enough for the responsibility and I assure you she could have just dropped him off at any hospital no questions asked!
No value for human life none whatsoever!
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Muwaahid
10-03-2012, 10:23 AM
Bi ayyi dhambin qutilat? The child will ask on yaumal qiyaamah . "For which sin is it that I was killed for? I feel sorry for the girl,she was demonic to do that to a living being,pure wickedness, al- aynu bil ayni an eye for an eye
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Bint-e-Adam
10-03-2012, 10:59 AM
no words to say here my feelings :(
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cuezed
10-03-2012, 05:34 PM
Astaghfirullah. This is the result of a free and modern society!
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MartyrX
10-03-2012, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by cuezed
Astaghfirullah. This is the result of a free and modern society!
I'm sorry but this has been happening since the beginning of time. It has nothing to do with a free and modern society.
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جوري
10-03-2012, 11:06 PM
It seems more prevalent and that it bothers people less or for some reason people tend to feel sympathy for the perpetrator rather than the helpless victim... I have known people to have walked the streets in a haze after losing their children to an accident or whatever and others pry them out with scissors apparently like a drain clog that needs to go to the garbage!
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Futuwwa
10-04-2012, 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
Come speak to me about how we 'hate their freedoms'
Your outrage over what has happened would be more believable if you wouldn't exploit the incident to agitate against the West.
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جوري
10-04-2012, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Your outrage over what has happened would be more believable if you wouldn't exploit the incident to agitate against the West.
more believable to whom? Further who said I am 'outraged' this is more upsetting than outraging!

best,
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glo
10-04-2012, 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
It seems more prevalent and that it bothers people less or for some reason people tend to feel sympathy for the perpetrator rather than the helpless victim... I have known people to have walked the streets in a haze after losing their children to an accident or whatever and others pry them out with scissors apparently like a drain clog that needs to go to the garbage!
I wonder if it is really more prevalent or if we are just more aware of it because of our modern fast-reporting media?

The way this girl killed her baby bothers me too. There is something very cruel and hard-hearted about it. :cry:

On the other hand I wonder whether, if she had people in her live who would have supported her; not judged her for her teenage pregnancy, but helped her to find a solution, told her about other options (such as adoption) and gave her the hope that life goes on after being a teenage mother - whether she would not have taken such a drastic step.

I can't help but feel deeply sad for such a young girl now on the road of imprisonment and being looked upon as a monster by society .... when deep down there might be a young and confused girl crying out for help.
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-04-2012, 07:29 AM
the girl is deeply deeply disturbed. she has issues. my 6 year old niece couldnt get herself to do that and this girl is 14. I realise family issues are involved but lets not make this an excuse or we'll accept far too many similar tragedies where we are sympathetic to the culprit.
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جوري
10-04-2012, 10:05 AM
More prevelant on the account of more people populating the earth and society being more allowing!
I don't feel sorry for her- I have seen African societies where young girls beat on rocks, carry chores for others, their parents are dead and of course no schooling and they wouldn't dream of doing this. I am supposed to sympathize with an effete callous murderer because someone decided she's a child? Was she a child when she screwed around? Pregnancies don't result from rapes!
The I am sorry let's make excuses for her is what perpetuates this and makes it common place when it's an abomination - honestly turn on your tv sometimes and watch how the other half lives before suggesting a better support system!
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hur575
10-04-2012, 10:41 AM
I think if we keep repeating some ideas , eventually they will stick. Most films or books present any monster with bad upbringing, and force the audience to sympathies with him/her.If everyone who had a traumatic childhood turned into a killer, then we are seriously in trouble.

In regards to this article, I don’t understand how people forget that, this girl, had unprotected sex, kept the pregnancy and the article reminding us "Let's remember she is a child," one word spring to mind “sympathy, sympathy”

I sympathies with the baby, this girl was old enough to have sex but not old enough to know killing is wrong^o).
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Futuwwa
10-04-2012, 04:06 PM
Save the moral preaching for Judgment Day. It won't bring back the baby to life, and it won't prevent things like this from happening in the future. There is already an overwhelming consensus that killing babies (well, born ones anyway) is massively evil, and even the decadent West agrees on that, so being mutually outraged about it and letting everyone know how outraged we are changes absolutely nothing.

Girls like this need help. Not because they deserve it, but because of the baby. Had she had a more supportive environment, it's likely that one more baby would be alive today.
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جوري
10-04-2012, 04:55 PM
saving the moral preaching for 'judgement day' won't make others take heed either for preventative measures or for the powers that be to establish justice, which we're actually required to implement in the here and now.. what's your religion btw? Apathy? - if you don't like the subject matter, you're welcome to skip this thread!

best,
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MartyrX
10-05-2012, 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
More prevelant on the account of more people populating the earth and society being more allowing!
I don't feel sorry for her- I have seen African societies where young girls beat on rocks, carry chores for others, their parents are dead and of course no schooling and they wouldn't dream of doing this. I am supposed to sympathize with an effete callous murderer because someone decided she's a child? Was she a child when she screwed around? Pregnancies don't result from rapes!
The I am sorry let's make excuses for her is what perpetuates this and makes it common place when it's an abomination - honestly turn on your tv sometimes and watch how the other half lives before suggesting a better support system!
Pregnancies don't result from rapes? Are you serious? They do and can happen from a rape. Any doctor or anyone with knowledge on reproductive systems will tell you that.

In today's society, we have access to 24 hour a day news. We are so connected of course we are going to hear about these kind of stories more often.
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جوري
10-05-2012, 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by MartyrX
Pregnancies don't result from rapes? Are you serious? They do and can happen from a rape. Any doctor or anyone with knowledge on reproductive systems will tell you that.

In today's society, we have access to 24 hour a day news. We are so connected of course we are going to hear about these kind of stories more often.
Well al7mdullilah I happen to be a doctor and a pregnancy resulting from a rape is a little under 1%!
pregnancy from a one time unprotected sex that doesn't involve trauma is about 5% so you do the math and think of the physiology!
You need a receptive medium for sperm to travel (I won't elaborate on that much) compounded by the fact that females are fertile an average of 3 days per months!

:w:
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MartyrX
10-05-2012, 01:09 AM
You just contradicted yourself. You said they can't, but then they can. So which is it?
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جوري
10-05-2012, 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by MartyrX
You just contradicted yourself. You said they can't, but then they can. So which is it?
I should have elaborated with a term like don't usually or don't often or hardly ever, but that's ancillary to this topic - fact is we don't have true statistics it is an inference under any circumstance. Not all rape victims come forward, not all rapes can be construed as rapes, we can't pinpoint an actual date of pregnancy so we estimate (and there are other variables like other sexual encounters) so we guesstimate based on when a normal pregnancy happens under stringent conditions.
At any rate this thread isn't about rapes and there's no indication that she was raped so let's not meander the issue.
You're welcome to start a thread on rape however if you so choose!

:w:
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Tyrion
10-05-2012, 04:25 AM
Incredibly sad and disturbing. A lot must have gone wrong to drive a person to that point.

That being said, some of the comments here leave a bad taste in my mouth. Something about using a story as sad as this to try and further demonize the west or the supposed moral decay or our times seems wrong.


Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
if you don't like the subject matter, you're welcome to skip this thread!
Come on, I've noticed that you do this far too much now. This is a public forum. You can't just tell people they should go away or ignore your posts/threads when they don't agree with you, or when they have a comment/opinion you don't like.

Originally Posted by MartyrX
Pregnancies don't result from rapes? Are you serious? They do and can happen from a rape. Any doctor or anyone with knowledge on reproductive systems will tell you that.
There was a recent controversy about that, wasn't there? :p: I'm a bit surprised to be hearing it here.

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Girls like this need help. Not because they deserve it, but because of the baby. Had she had a more supportive environment, it's likely that one more baby would be alive today.
Exactly. The worst part of stories like this is that they probably could have been easily avoided. Her actions were incredibly heinous, but I can't help feeling pity for her. It must have been insane to be pushed that far, especially at such a young age.

Originally Posted by cuezed
This is the result of a free and modern society!
No, I don't think so. More likely a result of a lack of education, possibly broken home, etc...
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Marina-Aisha
10-05-2012, 05:20 AM
Why should we pity her? Lets just say she was abused or Wotever that just because u have tough life doesn't give u the right to murder!
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Tyrion
10-05-2012, 05:23 AM
Originally Posted by marina-hadeya
Why should we pity her? Lets just say she was abused or Wotever that just because u have tough life doesn't give u the right to murder!
I never said you should pity her, I said I pitied her. Nobody here has suggested she had any right to kill her baby.
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hur575
10-05-2012, 07:28 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Save the moral preaching for Judgment Day.
This is a public forum, that what is used for ! We discuss issues that affect us as human living together in this planet. In the judgment day, we have no say in the matter it is between her and GOD.

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Had she had a more supportive environment, it's likely that one more baby would be alive today.
What kind of support?? To tell her it is ok to have unprotected sex?? It is ok to kill a baby?? after all you are only a child yourself!!!

What kind of support?? Encourage teen pregnancy by providing a free ride. Teenage pregnancy has been a huge issue in the west, because people refuse to give responsibilities to those teen.

In the UK for example, if you are a teen and single mother, you get free life. Free council flat, free money, and teen get pregnant so they can leave their parent house, because the system sympathises with those “ children”

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جوري
10-05-2012, 10:15 AM
Come on, I've noticed that you do this far too much now. This is a public forum. You can't just tell people they should go away or ignore your posts/threads when they don't agree with you, or when they have a comment/opinion you don't like
He has emphasized that we leave the 'moral preaching to judgement day' so I am not quite sure of what other option you'd like us to suggest to him? As far as we can tell it's a pretty open and shut case per his standards - thus abandoning the topic would be the only option left- don't you agree?
You're also welcome to survey the number of my posts where I've suggested they be skipped I'd like to better appreciate my nonchalance percentage wise!

Best,
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جوري
10-05-2012, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
The worst part of stories like this is that they probably could have been easily avoided
Yes, it is called abstinence- do they preach that in the idyllic model of which our comments have left you with a bad taste and the other dude pounding on his chest in a drive by shooting? Or are they exporting and enabling that in our part of the world?
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...territory.html

Try Breath RX otherwise!

best,
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glo
10-05-2012, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by hur575
What kind of support?? To tell her it is ok to have unprotected sex?? It is ok to kill a baby?? after all you are only a child yourself!!!
What kind of support?

The kind of support which teaches you that even if you have been foolish enough to get yourself pregnant at such a young age, there are ways of dealing with it.
Firstly, rather than feeling you have to lie and keep your situation a secret, you can talk to somebody and ask for help.
Secondly, there are options other than taking things into your own hands and killing your own baby - such as keeping the baby with support from your family and friends or putting it up for adoption.
Thirdly, your life is not over! You can still turn your life around, take care of yourself and have a beautiful life ahead of you.

The kind of support which teaches you that there is help out there, even when you have messed up BIG TIME.

The kind of support which teaches you that when you make mistakes, you have to be big enough to deal with the consequences. You cannot make them go away, not even by killing your unwanted baby.
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جوري
10-05-2012, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by glo
The kind of support which teaches you that even if you have been foolish enough to get yourself pregnant at such a young age, there are ways of dealing with it.
I am curious as to what christianity teaches per regard to pre-marital sex and murder of young infants?

best,
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glo
10-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
I am curious as to what christianity teaches per regard to pre-marital sex and murder of young infants?
Neither are permitted.

But being compassionate is permitted - even positively encouraged!

Showing this girl compassion and offering help and support after she had committed sin number one may have prevented her from committing the far worse sin number two.
(It may not have. She may simply be a complete sociopath. But I don't know that, so I like to give her the benefit of the doubt.)

You are of course right. Had she not had sex, none of this would have happened ...
But since it did happen, things could have possibly been done to prevent the death of a newborn baby.
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جوري
10-05-2012, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Neither are permitted.
Thanks for your honest reply- that's all I was looking for, not a boundary line by which to break God's commandments under florid terminology in order to pontificate and reward and/or enable the problem further. Surely you've heard of preventative measures and until such are implmented we're only going to see little teenage run away hookers murdering their kids and then requesting a song to dance at the prom. She's certainly not the first of her kind and it is sad that this sort of thing continues to happen and happen. Compassion in this case is misapplied, should go toward the murdered infant not the callous mother!

Also if she's a child may I ask, how old you propose Mary was when she gave birth to Jesus?

best,
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glo
10-05-2012, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
Also if she's a child may I ask, how old you propose Mary was when she gave birth to Jesus?
I am not sure. There are differences in opinion. But chances are she was a teenager.

Still, I am not sure how this is relevant though.
My point is that Cassidy Goodson made a mistake (by becoming pregnant); and that by not receiving the right support or feeling she could not ask for help ended up committing a terrible crime - killing her newborn child.

Perhaps females of her age were considered grown women in Jesus' and Muhammad's day, but (having teenage children myself) I don't think they are fully mature adults in this day and age. Perhaps life is more complex nowadays. I don't know ...

The tragedy is that children become physically mature (and hence ready and willing to have sex) than they mature mentally.

I don't think just because Cassidy was physically mature enough to conceive a child, she should automatically be treated as an adult. Surely there are better ways of assessing her level of maturity.

The way she dealt with that situation indicates to me that she is either very callous or very immature. As I said, I don't know her, so I cannot judge which it is ...

Just my own opinion, of course.
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جوري
10-05-2012, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by glo
My point is that Cassidy Goodson made a mistake (by becoming pregnant); and that by not receiving the right support or feeling she could not ask for help ended up committing a terrible crime - killing her newborn child.
A mistake is leaving the light on when you go out, or burning your new silk shirt while ironing- not when killing an infant after having committed adultery.. perhaps the watering down of terms when need be and exaggerating them when they're neither merited nor suitable is the true problem of our times. That way criminals are painted as helpless victims and law abiding citizens become outlaws..

best,
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glo
10-05-2012, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Still, I am not sure how this is relevant though.
My point is that Cassidy Goodson made a mistake (by becoming pregnant); and that by not receiving the right support or feeling she could not ask for help ended up committing a terrible crime - killing her newborn child.
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ

A mistake is leaving the light on when you go out, or burning your new silk shirt while ironing- not when killing an infant after having committed adultery.. perhaps the watering down of terms when need be and exaggerating them when they're neither merited nor suitable is the true problem of our times. That way criminals are painted as helpless victims and law abiding citizens become outlaws..

best,
I don't think I tried to water down the terms.

If you read my post again, I called becoming pregnant a mistake and killing a newborn baby a terrible crime.

I used those terms because I think there is a difference in seriousness and severity between the two acts. I could have called them both sin, but that wouldn't have made a distinction between them.

I take your point that we can sway opinion and value by the terminology we use. Interesting thought.
By using different terms I have given both acts a distinctly different weighting ...

Do you think both acts are equally wrong or would you make a similar distinction?
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جوري
10-05-2012, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Do you think both acts are equally wrong or would you make a similar distinction?
My Islamic point of view is that there's no sin beyond kuffr!

best,
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Rhubarb Tart
10-06-2012, 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
the girl is deeply deeply disturbed. she has issues. my 6 year old niece couldnt get herself to do that and this girl is 14. I realise family issues are involved but lets not make this an excuse or we'll accept far too many similar tragedies where we are sympathetic to the culprit.
:sl:

I agree she should take responsibility for her actions. But don’t you make excuses for rapist because of how a woman dresses?

So in one case, someone who just entered adulthood take full responsibility whereas grown ass men are excused for raping because the victims are dressed immodestly.


It is not a question of age; it is question of mental state. And she knew what she was doing.

1. She hid her baby in a box and didn’t go to the police straight away.
2. She freshen herself up afterwards.
3. She slept in the same room as her baby despite the smell.
4. She would have continued to hide the baby if her mother didn’t find him.

She did all by herself. If someone was mentally ill, they would react differently.
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glo
10-06-2012, 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by Rhubarb Tart
She slept in the same room as her baby despite the smell.
Actually, continuing to sleep in the same room with a decomposing body doesn't sound like something a person of sound mind would do. Sounds pretty disturbed to me.
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جوري
10-06-2012, 01:32 PM
criminals are disturbed individuals but it doesn't mean they're not calculating. BTW, criminals are known to visit the scenes of their crimes, and many bury it on site rather than having to constantly worry someone will unearth it at some remote location. Also many like to keep tokens from their victims.
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Marina-Aisha
10-06-2012, 01:59 PM
sounds to me just just shoved her poor baby in some shoe box and shoved the baby under the bed she clearly doesnt care...but does it really matter she took a life..to treat her own baby in such a way horrific no matter wot state of mind her child derserves justice....
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Futuwwa
10-06-2012, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
saving the moral preaching for 'judgement day' won't make others take heed either for preventative measures or for the powers that be to establish justice, which we're actually required to implement in the here and now..
So "justice", in the form of, what, crucifying the perpetrator, is more important than preventing things like this from happening in the future? The moral preaching is utterly redundant since there is already a consensus that killing children is massively immoral. The only one who benefits from the preaching are, well, people like you who get to feel righteous.


Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
what's your religion btw? Apathy? - if you don't like the subject matter, you're welcome to skip this thread!

best,
My religion can be found in the box to the left of this post, a bit below the honey pot. Check it out. :)

Should I skip every thread where I object to the attitude of the original poster? Would you rather want every one of your threads to be a circle-jerk where everyone agrees with you and you all agree on how awesome you are for having the right opinions and attitudes?
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جوري
10-06-2012, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
So "justice", in the form of, what, crucifying the perpetrator, is more important than preventing things like this from happening in the future? The moral preaching is utterly redundant since there is already a consensus that killing children is massively immoral. The only one who benefits from the preaching are, well, people like you who get to feel righteous.
I didn't suggest they 'crucify' the perpetrator. I do however think she should be tried as an adult since it is an adult crime and receive whatever punishment comes with killing a human being which is decided by her state. I think it should be made public so others can take heed so we're not hearing about this every other day, whether it is a massacre one place or a mother killing her child in another and then folks wondering where they went wrong.. Well they went wrong simply having apathetic folks like you shrug their shoulder at every crime!
As for preventative measures, well it is called abstinence, but you don't seem to advocate either, punishment for crime or abstinence so I am not sure what you problem is really? As for 'preaching' one doesn't get the feeling that you understand, care or desire to make a difference and as stated prior if 'preaching' bothers you, you're welcome to skip the thread all together! No?
It is amusing to see someone this exasperated over folks being disgusted with a guilty person's behavior.. it is almost as if a catharsis of a crime you yourself committed and desire to be exonerated of.

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
My religion can be found in the box to the left of this post, a bit below the honey pot. Check it out.
Should I skip every thread where I object to the attitude of the original poster? Would you rather want every one of your threads to be a circle-jerk where everyone agrees with you and you all agree on how awesome you are for having the right opinions and attitudes?
Indeed, your religion seems incongruous with what you write and how you behave.
lastly my thread isn't about how awesome I am, check the subject matter perhaps then you won't seem so confused. I'd welcome an antagonistic piece if there were something substantive in it. And there are a couple of people on this thread who don't agree with my comments and managed to have an exchange that wasn't so dead end!
As for being wrong well I don't think you stand on the same platform with the most basic laws of a civil society!

best,
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Futuwwa
10-06-2012, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by hur575
This is a public forum, that what is used for !
If what the forum is to be "used for" is open discussion, then my statement denouncing the statements of others as counterproductive is just as legitimate. Free and public discussion goes both ways; you have a right to speak your mind, you don't have a right to never have to face criticism of your speech.


Originally Posted by hur575
What kind of support?? To tell her it is ok to have unprotected sex?? It is ok to kill a baby?? after all you are only a child yourself!!!

What kind of support?? Encourage teen pregnancy by providing a free ride. Teenage pregnancy has been a huge issue in the west, because people refuse to give responsibilities to those teen.

In the UK for example, if you are a teen and single mother, you get free life. Free council flat, free money, and teen get pregnant so they can leave their parent house, because the system sympathises with those “ children”
The support inherent in letting the child know that it can always count on the help of its parents when in need, no matter how badly the child has screwed up. As long as the help isn't grossly immoral at any rate, which it would not be in this case. A child who has screwed up badly and ended in an awful situation has already suffered enough, the last thing the child needs is reproaches on what it "should" have done. What someone "should" have done is utterly irrelevant if it has already happened and can't be undone. What's needed in such a situation is solutions on how to move forward. That this pregnant teen girl did not tell her parents implies that she had reason to believe the grief she's get from letting them know would make it not worth it to tell them, that telling them would only make things worse.

If your children, after having screwed up badly and being in great need, fear to tell you about it and stay silent because they believe they wouldn't get any help and that the grief they'd get from you would make it totally not worth it to tell you, you have failed critically as a parent.

Me, I approve of the way the UK "supports" teenage mothers. Did it ever occur to you that the purpose of that support is not to express approval of teenage debauchery with a nod and a wink, but to make sure that the baby gets a decent start in life? Would you rather let the baby be left out in the cold and suffer just so that you can shame teenage mothers?

And if you think giving a few material benefits to teenage mothers actually incentivizes teens to get pregnant, you haven't known many contemporary Western teenagers. They're bombarded with all kinds of conflicting ideas about what they should be like, but teenage parenthood is totally not one of them. Being saddled with the responsibilities of parenthood is the last thing a typical sinful, carefree, fun-loving Western teenager would want.
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Tyrion
10-06-2012, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
As for preventative measures, well it is called abstinence,
You've mentioned this a couple of times now. Do you really believe this is all we need to teach kids?
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جوري
10-06-2012, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
If what the forum is to be "used for" is open discussion, then my statement denouncing the statements of others as counterproductive is just as legitimate. Free and public discussion goes both ways; you have a right to speak your mind, you don't have a right to never have to face criticism of your speech.
Most of your comments thus far were non-contributory, surely you can distinguish the difference between being objectionable for the sake of it or offering some useful solutions that are in concert with ones religious beliefs and also beneficial to society which doesn't include rewarding criminal behavior. Every society has its criminals even the human body. When the the body is attacked it doesn't decide to 'reform' the bacteria or virus or whatever, it works by various means to rid the body of it.. and in this case it should be no different!
At the end of the day it is a judicial matter and she may indeed be tried as a child and do whatever three months come out to the same behavior because 'western studies' show that their prison system is also not meant to reform!



Originally Posted by Futuwwa
The support inherent in letting the child know that it can always count on the help of its parents when in need, no matter how badly the child has screwed up. As long as the help isn't grossly immoral at any rate, which it would not be in this case. A child who has screwed up badly and ended in an awful situation has already suffered enough, the last thing the child needs is reproaches on what it "should" have done. What someone "should" have done is utterly irrelevant if it has already happened and can't be undone. What's needed in such a situation is solutions on how to move forward. That this pregnant teen girl did not tell her parents implies that she had reason to believe the grief she's get from letting them know would make it not worth it to tell them, that telling them would only make things worse.
What she has done is all that's relevant- the laws are made so that from conception to delivery she'd have complete autonomy even if there were no support system at home. In some states like Chicago a minor can be fully emancipated during pregnancy. Doesn't need parent consent for anything from the screwing part to the delivery part, and there are several hospitals where she can have a baby drop off program.. So she could have had this kid in an outside toilet, wrapped it in toilet paper and left it like people drop off books!
I must admit, it is very amusing the concept of severe criminal behavior being treated with nothing more than a slap on the wrist if at all!


Originally Posted by Futuwwa
If your children, after having screwed up badly and being in great need, fear to tell you about it and stay silent because they believe they wouldn't get any help and that the grief they'd get from you would make it totally not worth it to tell you, you have failed critically as a parent.
Again, even if parental help were missing, the laws are setup so she can have multiple options without incurring their wrath in any form!

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Me, I approve of the way the UK "supports" teenage mothers. Did it ever occur to you that the purpose of that support is not to express approval of teenage debauchery with a nod and a wink, but to make sure that the baby gets a decent start in life? Would you rather let the baby be left out in the cold and suffer just so that you can shame teenage mothers?
well of course you do.. In this case no baby was left out, it was pried out with a sharp instrument and choked

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
And if you think giving a few material benefits to teenage mothers actually incentivizes teens to get pregnant, you haven't known many contemporary Western teenagers. They're bombarded with all kinds of conflicting ideas about what they should be like, but teenage parenthood is totally not one of them. Being saddled with the responsibilities of parenthood is the last thing a typical sinful, carefree, fun-loving Western teenager would want.
with such shows as 16 and pregnant glorfying teenage out of wedlock pregnancy, and rewarding it with money and free air time, your theory on what the average western teenager wants comes up empty as usual!

best,
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جوري
10-06-2012, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

You've mentioned this a couple of times now. Do you really believe this is all we need to teach kids?
I don't know about your kids but that's how we raise ours with some basic religious foundations as to what's right and wrong!

:w:
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sister herb
10-06-2012, 08:05 PM
Salam alaykum

we don´t know how this child became pregnant or know really hers situation. We should not try to judge her at all.

Allah knows.

She might became raped and as she is child she might be terrified.

Shouldn´t we people try to be as merciful as Allah?


:nervous:
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جوري
10-06-2012, 08:12 PM
The doors of repentance are always open but repentance in and of itself isn't an expiation of sin.. in other words if you steal and you're exempt from all the conditions that would make that act allowed as in you were starving and someone not paying you, your due rights than hadd has to be carried out.. That is a separate issue from repentance and forgiveness.. Those doors are always open if one is sincere and that is a matter between them and God, but the law of this earth is something between the person and the society they live in. If she were raped and this was the minute yet unfortunate event of that happening. It would have come out in her confession along with her not knowing what to do with it...

Only Allah swt knows best but as it now seems she's like previous folks that have come and gone killing their children and putting them in a dumpster. Oh I know the whole population control cull down on the unwanted is an in thing now.. But it isn't an in thing with folks of reason...this is a jahlya practice and I can't agree with it and as the hadith states:
On the authority of Abu Saeed al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say, “Whoever of you sees an evil must then change it with his hand. If he is not able to do so, then [he must change it ] with his tongue. And if he is not able to do so, then [he must change it] with his heart. And that is the slightest [effect of] faith.” (Recorded in Muslim)

:w:
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MartyrX
10-07-2012, 01:24 AM
I have to agree with the posters who have said that we don't really know the circumstances behind her pregnancy. She got pregnant and that's wrong, but for whatever reason, she felt like she couldn't tell her family or had someone to go to. I understand that feeling. I don't condone the murder of an innocent child, but we should seek to understand before, we seek to judge.
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hur575
10-07-2012, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
If what the forum is to be "used for" is open discussion, then my statement denouncing the statements of others as counterproductive is just as legitimate. Free and public discussion goes both ways; you have a right to speak your mind, you don't have a right to never have to face criticism of your speech.
Where did I say do not be criticize my opinion?? You are the one you want to force your opinion down our throat by shutting us up until the Day of Judgment. You the one said
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Save the moral preaching for Judgment Day..
Hence, I reminded you it is a public forum, and that is the whole point of it, to voice our opinions not to SAVE THEM.


Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Me, I approve of the way the UK "supports" teenage mothers. Did it ever occur to you that the purpose of that support is not to express approval of teenage debauchery with a nod and a wink, but to make sure that the baby gets a decent start in life? Would you rather let the baby be left out in the cold and suffer just so that you can shame teenage mothers?
.
Of course I understand the purpose but the end does not justify the mean. There are millions ways to care for the children without making it, a free ride to encourage teen pregnancies.

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
And if you think giving a few material benefits to teenage mothers actually incentivizes teens to get pregnant, you haven't known many contemporary Western teenagers. They're bombarded with all kinds of conflicting ideas about what they should be like, but teenage parenthood is totally not one of them. Being saddled with the responsibilities of parenthood is the last thing a typical sinful, carefree, fun-loving Western teenager would want.
Regarding this statement, I am sorry but that is not accurate. I live in the UK I know it is common problem here, and it has been discussed many times in the media. Please google UK benefit system and teenage pregnancy or UK teenage pregnancy problem, you will find articles and studies about this specific issue.

In one article in BBC website I will quote some of it “The UK has the highest teenage birth rates in Western Europe - twice as high as in Germany, three times as high as in France and six times as high as in the Netherlands.

Why are the figures on the increase?”

In another section of the article

"The welfare system in itself is an incentive to become a single non-working parent.."

So it is not my imaginative mind, it has been a problem for some time now but instead of solving the problem, people suggest the same old, tried and failed methods.


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Rhubarb Tart
10-08-2012, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by hur575
Where did I say do not be criticize my opinion?? You are the one you want to force your opinion down our throat by shutting us up until the Day of Judgment. You the one said Hence, I reminded you it is a public forum, and that is the whole point of it, to voice our opinions not to SAVE THEM.



Of course I understand the purpose but the end does not justify the mean. There are millions ways to care for the children without making it, a free ride to encourage teen pregnancies.



Regarding this statement, I am sorry but that is not accurate. I live in the UK I know it is common problem here, and it has been discussed many times in the media. Please google UK benefit system and teenage pregnancy or UK teenage pregnancy problem, you will find articles and studies about this specific issue.

In one article in BBC website I will quote some of it “The UK has the highest teenage birth rates in Western Europe - twice as high as in Germany, three times as high as in France and six times as high as in the Netherlands.

Why are the figures on the increase?”

In another section of the article

"The welfare system in itself is an incentive to become a single non-working parent.."

So it is not my imaginative mind, it has been a problem for some time now but instead of solving the problem, people suggest the same old, tried and failed methods.

I also live in the UK. And I like the benefit system here. What would you suggest hand out food stamps like America? How degrading is that?
How accurate is the media in the uk? The same media the exaggerate crimes committed by Muslims by emphasising the fact they are “Muslims” regardless whether they are practicing or not?

The media that uses unethical tactics to gain a headline?

What do suppose we do with single mothers? Incentive to get pregnant? How?

They are expected to put up with dirty and run down hostel or flats and sometimes in dangerous area. Single mothers don’t have a choice where they stay or the amount money they receive. Once the child is age seven, they are expected to work.

I am sorry; the most vulnerable people in our society should receive help that includes single mothers. No point punishing children because their mothers are single.
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Independent
10-08-2012, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by hur575
"The welfare system in itself is an incentive to become a single non-working parent.."
This point of view is popular with right wingers but not accepted everywhere. According to a recent study of UK teenage mothers: "There was no evidence to suggest that women became pregnant to get council housing or social security benefits. Most of them had known little or nothing about housing policy or benefits before becoming pregnant and the little they had known was usually wrong." (Policy Studies Institute/Uni Westminster).

It's also often said (about countries like the Netherlands) that the reason for lower pregnancy rates is a more thorough sex education at school (which, ironically, right wingers sometimes resist.)
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جوري
10-08-2012, 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
"There was no evidence to suggest that women became pregnant to get council housing or social security benefits. Most of them had known little or nothing about housing policy or benefits before becoming pregnant and the little they had known was usually wrong." (Policy Studies Institute/Uni Westminster).
That 'study' is from 1998 which renders your entire argument null. firstly we don't know what kind of study this was, in what demographics, or the power of the study, it is in all likelihood a retrospect and considering the population questioned not only can their memory be shoddy.. there's always the possibility of *gasps* teenagers lying (imagine that) - also a whole generation has been spawned since which if a product of wedlock are out of wedlock themselves and know of the benefits their mothers received. Surely people's knowledge evolves in 15 years worth of time? why that's practically another teenager born to a teenager!
In what way has sex education curbed on teen pregnancy?
I told you before to do a little research before you write, we can't all go in to clean up after you!
best,
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جوري
10-08-2012, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by Rhubarb Tart
And I like the benefit system here.
:sl: sister,

a welfare system has its roots in an Islamic state, from Zakat to bayt al'mal etc.
but there was a responsibility from both parties as I am sure you well know. Even men in the army were required by law that was instated during the caliphate of Umar ibn Ilkhtaab to not be absent from their spouse for more than four months at a time, and mothers also under this caliphate received benefits the minute their infant was born. But as stated there was responsibility from both parties. Now it seems almost unconscionable to inject a little bit of common sense, this system is set so that folks would orbit in the same circle for generations never breaking the mold if not actually become more degenerate with time as it becomes more normal and more allowed.
At any rate that wasn't the subject of the thread and I am not sure why we ended up here given the subject of the thread. In the U.S teenagers or any woman who doesn't want her baby to safely deposit him somewhere:
http://www.wikihow.com/Drop-Off-an-Unwanted-Baby

:w:
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~Zaria~
10-08-2012, 06:02 PM
Assalamu-alaikum,

From an Islamic view-point, a woman becomes accountable when she fulfils the conditions:- being of sound mind and being an adult.

Adulthood is reached when she menstruates or by the growth of hair around the private part; or when she reaches the age of fifteen.

So, the fact that this 14-year old was able to fall pregnant - fulfills the above conditions and thus she should be treated as an adult......and her actions should be condemned as such as well (if she was living in an Islamic state).

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Our solutions to every facet of life lies in Quraan and Sunnah......why do place such importance on our own 'opinions' in such matters.

The islamic standing on the definition of 'adulthood' and maturation may sound harsh to some......but then, are we questioning the mercy of our Rabb, the One who is the All-Merciful?

There is so much wisdom in each and every command of Allah (subhanawataála).

Not only are we holding young adults (and this is what a 'teenager' is) ACCOUNTABLE for their actions, but the punishment that would be meeted out in this worldly life (according to Shariah law), will stand as an example for the rest of the community.

One only needs to live in a country that is over-run by crime and lawlessness, to understand how important this is for a society to function optimally.

How many young men and women would even consider committing adultery - if they were to hear/ be witness to the punishment for it?
How many murders would occur?
How many petty thefts would take place if the hands were being lost?

I personally pray that I could live in Saudi (Oh Allah, bless me with residence and maut in Makkah/ Medinah! Ameen) - for so many reasons, including the fact that when the azaan for prayer is given - one does not even need to lock ones shop/ pack away the items being sold on the pavements, before heading for the masjid.......such is the overwhelming trust and FEAR in Allah (subhanawatáala)......and if taqwa is not sufficient - then at the very least, fear of the state and the punishment for being caught stealing.

Im not sure what all this discussion is even about.

As muslims - we accept and embrace the commands of Allah Taa'la in ALL things.......even if we cannot completely comprehend it, or even if it is difficult for us to accept.

Once we take shahada, we do not question the commands of our Rabb.
We obey.

:wa:
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LauraS
10-08-2012, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
This point of view is popular with right wingers but not accepted everywhere. According to a recent study of UK teenage mothers: "There was no evidence to suggest that women became pregnant to get council housing or social security benefits. Most of them had known little or nothing about housing policy or benefits before becoming pregnant and the little they had known was usually wrong." (Policy Studies Institute/Uni Westminster).

It's also often said (about countries like the Netherlands) that the reason for lower pregnancy rates is a more thorough sex education at school (which, ironically, right wingers sometimes resist.)
Hmmm I'm not so sure, I once overheard someone say they don't have to worry about working because they can just have a baby, be given a houe and get everything paid for them.
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glo
10-08-2012, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
From an Islamic view-point, a woman becomes accountable when she fulfils the conditions:- being of sound mind and being an adult.
Hi Zaria

It is easy to determine when somebody reaches adulthood from a physical perspective. Like you say, that happens when we reach physical maturity.

But what about mental maturity? How do we measure that? Or does that not part of the statement you made? Does physical maturity assume mental maturity?
Like I said in a post earlier, I find that there can be a vast discrepancy between physical and mental maturity in adolescents ...

And what about being of sound mind?
From what we know about this young girl, how can we be sure that she is of sound mind?
Prising your unborn baby out of your own body with scissors and keeping it's dead body in a box in your bedroom until it begins to smell are not the actions of somebody of sound mind (as I have also mentioned in an earlier post).

Do you think these are the actions of a human being in a rational state?
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glo
10-08-2012, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Hmmm I'm not so sure, I once overheard someone say they don't have to worry about working because they can just have a baby, be given a houe and get everything paid for them.
That may be true, but is anecdotal.

As sister Skye commented, it would be interesting to have statistical evidence of how common that kind of attitude is.
I mean, did you overhear the one and only person with that attitude in the entire country, or was she one of many? If the latter, how many others are there?

Personally, I am finding it hard to believe that there are women out there getting pregnant just to get a house and benefits ... but then, that's only my personal feeling and has no evidential muscle at all ...
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~Zaria~
10-08-2012, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by glo

Hi Zaria

It is easy to determine when somebody reaches adulthood from a physical perspective. Like you say, that happens when we reach physical maturity.

But what about mental maturity? How do we measure that? Or does that not part of the statement you made? Does physical maturity assume mental maturity?
Like I said in a post earlier, I find that there can be a vast discrepancy between physical and mental maturity in adolescents ...
Hi Glo,

From an islamic point of view, adulthood is recognised from the above mentioned criteria.

Mental maturity is not considered in this definition, and I think there is wisdom in this:

- How would one 'define' mental maturity?
- How would one assess the mental maturity of the illiterate/ poorly educated person?
- A person may reach the age of 20/ 25/ older - and still claim to be not 'mentally mature' as yet.

One needs to realise that the hormonal changes that occur during physical maturation affect not only the sexual organs, but the brain as well:
Testosterone surges in young men and monthly fluctuations in estrogen levels - all impact on ones higher functioning, ones sexual desires and transitions one away from childhood and into adulthood.

By recognising physical maturation as a sign of adulthood, we are placing a responsibility on our young adults - to behave and act as adults.
They need to realise that they are now accountable for all their deeds.
If a young adult/ teenager dies - he will not be protected by his 'lack of mental maturity' on the Day of Judgement.
And so, if we have kids who reached maturity - we need to reprimand them if they fail to pray/ fast in Ramadaan, etc......all this, for their own benefit.


Originally Posted by glo
And what about being of sound mind?
From what we know about this young girl, how can we be sure that she is of sound mind?
Prising your unborn baby out of your own body with scissors and keeping it's dead body in a box in your bedroom until it begins to smell are not the actions of somebody of sound mind (as I have also mentioned in an earlier post).

Do you think these are the actions of a human being in a rational state?
It is indeed difficult to judge this case from the information that we have at hand.

However, I am leaning towards this young being of sound mind from the following:

- By her own testimony, she says that she "didn't know what to do with it,".
She does not mention that she was hearing 'voices' prompting her to commit the murder of an innocent newborn.

Considering the following:
- "As evidence that she wasn't pregnant, Cassidy Goodson had shown her mother two home pregnancy tests that turned up negative. However, the teen had conducted the tests completely alone."
......tells me that she was intentionally trying to deceive her family - and had the ability to devise a plan in this regard.

- Her mother does not appear to question her own daughters state of mind (and this is a very important clue as well).

- Her method of extracting her fetus, choking it to death and being able to sleep with the dead body in her own room.......would then indicate absolute callousness and a disregard of acccountability to a higher power (if she is infact sane).

These are just my opinions drawn from the information provided in the article.
Perhaps I am wrong, and there is much more to this case.

Allah knows best.

And I do trust, that He is the best of Judgers in all matters.


Peace.
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Tyrion
10-08-2012, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by glo
That may be true, but is anecdotal.
I think she was being sarcastic. :p:
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glo
10-08-2012, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

I think she was being sarcastic. :p:
Ohhh ... fancy me not spotting that ... :embarrass
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glo
10-08-2012, 08:02 PM
Thanks for your measured and well thought out reply, Zaria.

There is much you write which I agree with and can relate to.
Like you, I have made many assumptions when reading this story. There is much we cannot know and much we have to guess to fill the gaps.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this.

God knows best indeed, and I trust that he has a plan for this young girl.

Salaam
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GuestFellow
10-08-2012, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Vision
And they say were living in the 'best of times'.
:sl:

Who are you referring to?
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hur575
10-09-2012, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Rhubarb Tart
I also live in the UK. And I like the benefit system here. What would you suggest hand out food stamps like America? How degrading is that?
How accurate is the media in the uk? The same media the exaggerate crimes committed by Muslims by emphasising the fact they are “Muslims” regardless whether they are practicing or not?

The media that uses unethical tactics to gain a headline?

What do suppose we do with single mothers? Incentive to get pregnant? How?

They are expected to put up with dirty and run down hostel or flats and sometimes in dangerous area. Single mothers don’t have a choice where they stay or the amount money they receive. Once the child is age seven, they are expected to work.

I am sorry; the most vulnerable people in our society should receive help that includes single mothers. No point punishing children because their mothers are single.
Sister, I agree that the media can be manipulative, I only quoted that there is an actual problem regarding teenage pregnancy. I am not here to argue with my brothers, and sisters ,I really did not join this site for this, I just assumed been Muslims we would understand that this girl is not considered a child nor deserve a sympathy. Sister Zaria explained it very well, Jazaha Allah Khair.

Regarding the benefit system I know very well how it works, and giving money to those kids it does not mean the babies well be well fed or cared for. Some will spend the whole money on booze and cigarettes, or designer things. A question for those who argue that these teen are kids, how do you then think they are very responsible on spending the money they are given?

You treat them like kids, and they will behave like kids, and then give them money and they will spend them like kids. I do not suggest stopping the benefit system; it just does not seem to work very well. The society refuses to give teen responsibilities, who says that a person less than 18yr by a day is a child??

Those called “kids” know their rights and abuse the system, for example, they can steal, terrorise a shop keeper and the police cannot do anything because they are “ children”. We clearly see there is a problem and people refuses to change the methods, they use the same old methods, how about trying a new method for a change?
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