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Al-Warraq
10-11-2012, 01:22 PM
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Many atheists claim that Atheism is nothing but a disbelief in God, thus they are like everybody else in everything else. But this is an illogical conclusion for an essential issue. Admitting the existence of God has its consequences, thus disbelief in God has its consequences and corollaries that include all aspects of life, and they are opposite to the consequences of belief in God.

Presenting things in a shallow way doesn’t make them shallow. What they say about atheism is like when a killer says: I did nothing to the victim except inserting a 2-cm bullet in his body and I didn’t take a big portion of his body, I left the rest as it was!


Disbelief in God is claim no.1, but they didn’t mention the other claims resulting from it, like the full materiality of man including mind and emotions, and this is a claim without any scientific evidence. Also claiming that morals are created by human for the sake of interests, and that they are not rooted in ourselves. This claim is opposed by reality, mind and morality, and this chain of illogical claims goes on.

Each action has results, and there are results for denying the existence of God, what are those results on the level of explaining existence, life, morality, history, human self, sociology… etc? why don't they mention them? This condensation is not scientific and distorting.

Denying the existence of God requires a complete alternative philosophy for all life. All that was associated to God should be re-associated in a different way, and with the same clarity. Because the human thought and civilizations were built on the basis of the existence of God. Who denies that should change the whole of the old structure and build a new mental structure for all aspects of life. The existence or non-existence of God isn’t a marginal issue, but an essential one. Actually it is the most Important issue in human life.
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dusk
10-11-2012, 10:30 PM
Did you mention all the gods you don't believe in. You are a monotheist but there are still other concepts. Religions, world views and philosophies that lead to different answers which you ignore just the same.
You deny all gods but one I simply deny one more.

This somehow reminds me of Pascal's Wager.
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
Each action has results, and there are results for denying the existence of God, what are those results on the level of explaining existence, life, morality, history, human self, sociology… etc? why don't they mention them?
They don't mention them because Atheism is not a religion and has no creed, no dogma and no universal answers that fit everyone. You have to figure out yourself the right answers that work and if they are important enough than people usually find some. Morality is easy in concept as it is just an immanent property of social communities and its interdependent members. It is harder in specifics. Morals a concept of right and wrong is entirely meaningless outside of a social context. The difference is one can be wrong when one makes a call and many of those that find themselves in fundamentalist religions do so because they want to be right and not having to question or worry if they acted correctly so they seek simple rules and black and white answers. Absolute morals aren't necessary only convenient or a useful tool to force people to think ahead more than one corner. Human self is imo more interesting when one dumps the incoherent dualistic model and actually explores it. Some people are so scared of nihilism that they practically flee into a religion, yet there is so much interesting stuff that they are only to scared to really explore.
Existence and life is what religion is supposed to answer. What are those answers really worth though. Simply pinning some on a deity doesn't make them any more satisfying imo. If you cannot believe in the deity and have faith it is just as worthless as having none. Not believing in god doesn't keep one from believing in ideals, ideas or humanity. The only difference is Atheists don't personify ideals and call them god. What answer people really need and which ones they are willing to accept is very different from person to person. If one doesn't worry about a certain question (like the afterlife), why should he.

God is important to you because so much, your whole world view depends on it. You won't find any atheist that gives you a list of all the alternative answers because atheism is just the opposite of theism and in all of theism the answers are endless (towards stuff like why are we here, where do we go, ...).
Keep in mind that even monotheism is a fairly new concept compared to how long people made up religions. The aborigines did fine without.
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
The existence or non-existence of God isn’t a marginal issue, but an essential one. Actually it is the most Important issue in human life.
As an apatheist I would argue it is both an unsolvable and unimportant issue. Until that god properly reveals himself, I don't see any point in assuming any which one is worth praying too. I also don't need to make anything up or convince myself into any incoherent narrow world view for for my own spiritual health.
Materialism isn't quite as limited as you might think. The only thing not allowed is handing unfounded reality claims for certain planes out like free beer or equalizing some planes of discussion into the same corset. Technically one can even be an atheist without being a materialist by going into solipsism or simply handing out arbitrary realness levels for spiritual stuff without accepting anything that is regraded as a god in monotheistic religions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
like the full materiality of man including mind and emotions, and this is a claim without any scientific evidence. Also claiming that morals are created by human for the sake of interests, and that they are not rooted in ourselves. This claim is opposed by reality, mind and morality, and this chain of illogical claims goes on.
Philosophies of identicality or immanence are simply less plagued by philosophical incoherencies in themselves and more open to exploration. Dualism is a child born out of necessity but just like free will problematic. In poor philosophy nihilism is actually one of the most logical concepts there is. People just don't like its conclusions. Morals can also be understood by looking at how worldly laws which span over many different people and populations came about and changed over time. Absolute morals are the thing that religious people don't want to live without but that doesn't make the concept illogical, just the receivers unwilling to accept the conclusions and/or unwilling to look at the reality of things. Just imagine what would be moral if you were a white shark. A loner in the sea with no friends, family or anything.
The full materiality of man is actually something with a lot of scientific evidence as far as we can go today. Emotions aren't decoupled and neither is the soul and we can influence both via the use of drugs. Materialism doesn't say that emotions don't exist just that they are abstractions that are entirely dependent of physical processes and would not be without them and vice versa. Dualism is actually the one that has very little support among the scientists and philosophers that tacle the theory and specifics of mind.
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جوري
10-11-2012, 10:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dusk
Atheism is not a religion and has no creed, no dogma and no universal answers that fit everyone
For a disorganized non-religion, you all sure do come up with the same inane platitudes!

best,
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GuestFellow
10-11-2012, 10:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
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Many atheists claim that Atheism is nothing but a disbelief in God, thus they are like everybody else in everything else.
:sl:

From speaking to some atheists, they said they lack belief in God. They cannot comprehend that this world was created by God, especially in accordance with Abrahamic religions. In additon, they do not claim they are like everybody else.

What do you mean by "they are like everybody else in everything else?" o_o

But this is an illogical conclusion for an essential issue. Admitting the existence of God has its consequences, thus disbelief in God has its consequences and corollaries that include all aspects of life, and they are opposite to the consequences of belief in God.
Ugh?

Presenting things in a shallow way doesn’t make them shallow. What they say about atheism is like when a killer says: I did nothing to the victim except inserting a 2-cm bullet in his body and I didn’t take a big portion of his body, I left the rest as it was!
I don't really get this analogy...is this an analogy?

I don't understand the purpose of this topic. What is the most important issue?
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CosmicPathos
10-11-2012, 10:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dusk
You deny all gods but one I simply deny one more.
Enough of this crap already!

I am sick and tired of this verbal flatulence.
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joesixpack
10-11-2012, 11:35 PM
If by "atheism" you mean "Materialism", then this is very true. The philosophical difference between materialism and idealism is very important. But one must remember that not all atheists are materialists.

The trouble with many atheists (at least many of the ones whom I have known) is that they claim to be atheist and yet still remain idealistic in their outlook. You will see this among the so-called atheists who advocate for imperialist wars "for the sake of" everything from women's rights to free speech. These are the "atheists" who are openly hostile towards religion and regard it as contrary to human development. They often see religion as the cause of conflict (there is a very strong anti-Palestinian tendency in this camp) and ignore the economic causes.

Conversely, most materialists don't actually even describe themselves as atheists. Not because they believe in God, but because the idea of a materialistic universe doesn't actually allow for a non-material entity (for a very good discussion on this point of view, google "Why Marx Was Not an Atheist" and click on the top result. Sorry, I can't post links yet). For my part, I view religion as a demonstrably natural development of human social and cultural structure.

What are materialists to make of religion? What are idealists to make of religion? The idealist is a moralist who must attribute to "character" human actions rather than admit material causes. Have some crimes been committed in he name of religion? Certainly there have been, but they are anomalies. Fifteen terrorists flew airplanes into buildings, you may say. Over one BILLION did not. Those billion looked after their neighbors children, helped a sick friend, smiled at a stranger, or struggled to save a strangers life on that very same day. I can't speak for all materialists, but I view religion's role in society as a social construct that reenforces humans altruistic behavior. If you look at the net behavioral effect of religion, we see that it has been the rationalization for a lot of the charity, mercy, and compassion in the world. The idealist is incapable of taking this view because he is unable to see the materialist causes and effects of human thought and action.

What are the morals of the Idealist? They are the morals of ideas. Why can we justify the bombing of people on the other side of the world, for the benefit of a small group of very rich people? Because there are ideas at stake. The idealist must ignore the material effect of their actions because they are quite ugly. They must insist that their idea of "freedom" or "democracy" or whatever other vaguely defined sacrosanct cultural institution they can imagine, has a value greater than human life. In a way, the idealist atheist has only denied the existence of one sort of god, yet he has created a substitute to which he is willing to sacrifice human life. Poor people must starve to protect the "right" of a wealthy person to hold on to every penny that is "rightfully" his. A wedding party in Afghanistan must be collateral damage in order to continue a war against people who are the enemies of western "progress".

What are the morals of the Materialist? What are the material needs of people? Is there some reason that we should respect an ideal over a child's life? Certainly not. What stands in the way of human social progress? What stands in the way of greater protection of human life? What stands in the way of bringing security to more people? There are class oriented ideals which stand in the way. The advancement of humanity and the abolition of human suffering is the morality of the materialist.

Should the Muslim or Christian fear the materialist? Or should he feat the idealistic atheist?
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Pygoscelis
10-12-2012, 01:26 PM
Didn't we already have this thread? This is pretty much identical to the other atheist thread the OP started. It is the same empty claims and I am betting he will again ignore the responses to them.

I would like to see him have a discussion on here with an atheist scientologist or atheist taoist or an atheist ghost hunter. Atheism does not equal materialism. Atheism really is no more than a lack of belief in Gods. Anything beyond that isn't mere atheism, but something else combined with atheism.
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جوري
10-12-2012, 01:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I would like to see him have a discussion on here with an atheist scientologist or atheist taoist or an atheist ghost hunter
If you eat french fries with cheese or with garlic dipping sauce or dressed up in ketchup it is the same thing no? same baseline, same foundation, different dressing!
Same principles apply. Same double negative exists, same questions remain, same answers applied, same mazes of weak sophistry, same conclusions in the end!
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-12-2012, 01:36 PM
Reminder to my brothers and sisters, sometimes anger and impatience evaporates from your posts till everyone gets a sense of it.

Please answer clearly with Allaahs pleasure in mind or the shaytan will cause us to do more harm then good.




Atheism is the way of the lost whos hearts have become darkenned from a state of forgetfulness of Allah, thus Allah has forgotten them.

Thats all I have to say about them, if they return to Allaah in sincerity then their hearts will find a light thats been lost for a long time now.
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joesixpack
10-12-2012, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
If you eat french fries with cheese or with garlic dipping sauce or dressed up in ketchup it is the same thing no? same baseline, same foundation, different dressing!
Same principles apply. Same double negative exists, same questions remain, same answers applied, same mazes of weak sophistry, same conclusions in the end!
Now I'm hungry for french fries.

If "atheism" is a french fry, then "materialism" is the restaurant where they are served.
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Independent
10-12-2012, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
Reminder to my brothers and sisters, sometimes anger and impatience evaporates from your posts till everyone gets a sense of it.
That's the best thing I've read here in a while. I've never seen a forum with such sustained hostility.

format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
if they return to Allaah in sincerity then their hearts will find a light that's been lost for a long time now.
And almost for the first time this is something that extends a welcome to non-Muslims.

This forum is supposed to be open to non-Muslims as well as Muslims. But if every single remark is to be treated with such venom then perhaps it would be better to close it to non-Muslims altogether and be done with it. Even visitors who are falling over backwards to be considerate are getting abuse.
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Pygoscelis
10-12-2012, 02:49 PM
I think my favourite case of non-materialist atheists is the Jedi :) Use the Force!
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Logikon
10-30-2012, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq

Many atheists claim that Atheism is nothing but a disbelief in God,

Correct


format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq

.....of man including mind and emotions, and this is a claim without any scientific evidence.

Also claiming that morals are created by human for the sake of interests, and that they are not rooted in ourselves.

This claim is opposed by reality,

There is scientific evidence. Read this book:
The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values by Sam Harris (Sep 13, 2011)

Human values are not given to us by any god

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YusufNoor
10-30-2012, 03:27 AM
Muslims should relax. Atheists are simply "conspiracy theorists" when it comes to God. none of them believe the same thing and none of them can prove anything.

i bet the majority of them are just deeply hurt that God hasn't personally revealed himself to them. they think that they are the smartest people on the planet and that alone should be reason enough for God to want to "greet them personally". and because God doesn't, the logical conclusion for them is that He doesn't exist.

it's like they are thinking, "If there was a God, He'd be intelligent. now if He were the most intelligent Being possible, then He would KNOW that i am also one of the most intelligent beings. thus, naturally, His Intelligence would be naturally drawn to mine. He couldn't help it, it would be irresistible! the fact that He doesn't can ONLY mean one thing. He doesn't exist. cuz if He did, BOOM, He'd be needing to talk to me!" so "God, unless you prove yourself to me; i'm just going to tell everyone that you don't exists! Ha!"...oh, wait, "That wasn't enough to make Him show Himself to me?" ..."Ha! well then, tell you what God, unless you come show Yourself to me... and i mean right NOW! i'm just going to tell everyone that you don't exist! HA! THAT will teach you!"...:i'll show Him. Who does He think He is, anyway!" hmmmmph!

but guess what? hey genius, God DID reveal Himself to you! BEFORE you were born!

so i challenge you! IF you are so dang smart, and hey, MAYBE you are!

but if you want me to believe it. well then, just use that precious brain of yours...and try to remember!

IF you are as smart as you THINK you are, then you WILL remember!

i hope you succeed!

may Allah make it easy for you! may He make you a better Muslim then i could ever dream of being!

ciao!
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Pygoscelis
10-30-2012, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
none of them believe the same thing and none of them can prove anything.
This is true

i bet the majority of them are just deeply hurt that God hasn't personally revealed himself to them. they think that they are the smartest people on the planet and that alone should be reason enough for God to want to "greet them personally". and because God doesn't, the logical conclusion for them is that He doesn't exist.
This is nonsense. Why would anybody believe that a being they don't believe exists would be intelligent, find them intelligent, and want to talk to them? These are all assumptions on your part that I see no basis for.

it's like they are thinking, "If there was a God, He'd be intelligent. now if He were the most intelligent Being possible, then He would KNOW that i am also one of the most intelligent beings. thus, naturally, His Intelligence would be naturally drawn to mine. He couldn't help it, it would be irresistible! the fact that He doesn't can ONLY mean one thing. He doesn't exist. cuz if He did, BOOM, He'd be needing to talk to me!" so "God, unless you prove yourself to me; i'm just going to tell everyone that you don't exists! Ha!"...oh, wait, "That wasn't enough to make Him show Himself to me?" ..."Ha! well then, tell you what God, unless you come show Yourself to me... and i mean right NOW! i'm just going to tell everyone that you don't exist! HA! THAT will teach you!"...:i'll show Him. Who does He think He is, anyway!" hmmmmph!
If there really is a God who wishes to be known by me, then yes, she would be known by me, because she'd be all powerful and her wish would happen. That is not arrogant on my part and I wouldn't have to be special in any way. I'd just have to be somebody she wanted to know she exists, which seems to be the claim most religious folks make when talking to me.

That no one God makes herself known to all, that there are those who believe in no Gods, and that there are those who believe in conflicting concepts of Gods and who cause all sorts of strife because of it, does indicate to me that either there is no one allpowerful God, or that if there is such a God, then she for whatever reason does not want to be known by all, wants all of the false claims of other gods to exist, and indends all the strife caused by competing religions.

Being allpowerful she could have us know whatever she wants. And she could just have it known to us. There would be no need for scripture or prophets.

And no, God making herself known to all would not take away free will. It would actually enable it. If we don't know she's there then do we really have any free choice to obey her? Only if we know she is there and what she wants can we be said to act against her and do so with free will.
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YusufNoor
10-30-2012, 05:41 PM
that you are that smart...

all you have to do is remember!
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aamirsaab
10-30-2012, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
.

Presenting things in a shallow way doesn’t make them shallow. What they say about atheism is like when a killer says: I did nothing to the victim except inserting a 2-cm bullet in his body and I didn’t take a big portion of his body, I left the rest as it was!
You are equating Atheism with a gun killer? Come on man!

I can't even understand the rest of your post either. Next time, think a lot longer before you hit that post button. Gather your thoughts in an organised and understandable fashion - then maybe athiests (and thiests for that matter) will give you the time of day.
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Pygoscelis
10-30-2012, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
that you are that smart...

all you have to do is remember!
Why are you trying to tell me that I think I am smart? Have I ever claimed that?

I have to remember what? Seems I am so dumb I forgot whatever it is you are saying I was to remember lol

Do you have any thoughts on the rest of my post (I edited it a little for clarity)?
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Lynx
10-31-2012, 05:08 AM
Nothing necessarily follows "God does not exist". This is why atheism is just a disbelief in God; you can't really derive anything more than that. This a clearly different from a belief in Allah or Jesus which does have necessary implications (Quranic or Biblical beliefs).

Happy Eid to the Muslims
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Al-Warraq
11-17-2012, 07:50 PM
Dusk:

Did you mention all the gods you don't believe in. You are a monotheist but there are still other concepts. Religions, world views and philosophies that lead to different answers which you ignore just the same.
All religions have one basis, and the concept of god is the same in all religions as a creator of this universe and a judge on people's morality and behavior. Those gods, however, differ in details. The atheist denies this common basis in all religions, which is the concept of a virtuous creator and regulator that is found in all religions.

You deny all gods but one I simply deny one more.
By denying those gods I don't deny the concept of divinity, I deny how they describe those gods, like being a god of only one people or ethnicity like Yahweh, or a god that discriminates between social classes as in Hinduism, or a god that created the universe and turned its back on it as in the god of the deists and irreligious people…etc. However, I don't deny their faith in that invisible virtuous power which created the universe and life, and disagree with how they describe Him and attribute to Him.
The atheist disagrees with the rest of humanity on this common basis which both reason and feeling lead to. That is why I think that to me the atheist is the furthest away from any religious person, because he differs from all of us in this basis. The atheist is fundamentally different from all the theists.

They don't mention them because Atheism is not a religion and has no creed, no dogma and no universal answers that fit everyone. You have to figure out yourself the right answers that work and if they are important enough than people usually find some.
Then what is atheism? Your definition of atheism is a definition of the non-existent, while you say atheism exists!

Morality is easy in concept as it is just an immanent property of social communities and its interdependent members. It is harder in specifics. Morals a concept of right and wrong is entirely meaningless outside of a social context.
Morality has a meaning, isn't there morality with the environment and with animals? Thus Durkheim's ideas aren't accurate. Morality exists and people know it with gods also, therefore, unlike what you said, morality does exist outside society.

The difference is one can be wrong when one makes a call and many of those that find themselves in fundamentalist religions do so because they want to be right and not having to question or worry if they acted correctly so they seek simple rules and black and white answers.
This is a special case and has nothing to do with the concept of morality.

Absolute morals aren't necessary only convenient or a useful tool to force people to think ahead more than one corner.
Then what is necessary? How can morals be beneficial if they aren't absolute? This way they will turn into utilitarianism and pragmatism, then why are they called morals? Why don't we call them business? And why do they have all that respect in the human self sense they are only material business?

Human self is imo more interesting when one dumps the incoherent dualistic model and actually explores it. Some people are so scared of nihilism that they practically flee into a religion, yet there is so much interesting stuff that they are only to scared to really explore.
Dualism is an inescapable reality. Do you want to live in reality or in imagination? You yourself deal with people with the duality of good and evil, and every day you judge on this basis, like saying that a certain person is kind and that one isn't kind, or saying I love this person and I hate that person, this person is smart and that is stupid, this is generous and that is stingy, and this is a theist and that's an atheist, and so on and so forth of endless dualities.

These are the components of the human self if you want to explore it as it is, a collection of dualities. Actually, they are the components of the mind. The mind can't think except through dualities, it even doesn't distinguish between colors without dualities. Man can't move, walk, come in and get out without the dualities of the sides. You look to the upper side of the entrance, its lowest side, its far right and its far left in order to insert a piano through it. The mind doesn't work without dualities, we knew the light from the dark, the distant from the close, and the hot from the cold..etc. Thus all knowledge is based upon dualities, including the duality of good and evil and virtue and vice. Through dualities we know others and know ourselves.

There is no escaping the reality of the human self to an atheist imagination that has no choice but to oppose nature, and wants us to enjoy nothingness and nihilism that frightens all living beings. Saying that nihilism is interesting is like saying that choking is interesting, unlike the old boring clean air! It's a huge opposition to the living nature presented by the atheistic thought as it always do.

Dualities prove the existence of a creator, and the existence of heaven and hell as a logical end to the inevitable duality of good and evil.

And not some people but all people hate nihilism, because nothingness is the opposite of existence, which is part of the duality of existence and nonexistence, and nobody like nothingness. All living beings strive to exist not to be nihil! How do you want, then, from people to like something that can never be liked? Nay, it's all they fear! How can you be a nihilist and at the same time fear death? Or are you going to say that some people don't fear death? Then you'll be flying far away from exploring the human self, just to defend the idea of atheism that's originally illogical.


Existence and life is what religion is supposed to answer. What are those answers really worth though. Simply pinning some on a deity doesn't make them any more satisfying imo. If you cannot believe in the deity and have faith it is just as worthless as having none.
Is pinning answers on nihil make them anymore satisfying? Isn't it enough evidence for the existence of a god that there is nothing that we can pin answers on except a god? What is the satisfying alternative then? Is it nothingness? Nihil? Or is it coincidences? Are those satisfying and convincing? You are going to say: science, but can science answer those questions? has it ever did? Of course not.

Imagine something that has no answer except one, and then comes who doubts that answer without even having the ability to present an alternative that can be accepted by reason like it accepted a god. Isn't that an evidence that that answer is correct? Have you seen how weak the position of the atheist? Don't you say that atheism is nothing? No creed and no features? Is nothing an alternative for something?

Don't forget that atheism has creeds and not just a creed, because it's a negative and nihilistic religion. It believes in matter alone, doesn't admit the existence of the soul, and believes that existence came from nothing through nothing, and then this existence will turn into nothing, and everything is nothing! This the logic and creeds of atheism, that views morality as the only means to achieve material interest.

The position held by atheism towards reason and science is known. It's the only thought that prefers theories over empirical scientific facts, and the only one that believes in the omnipotence of science, and has no boundaries nor limits in a utopian vision. Atheism alone believes in the changeability of logic, science precedence over reason -and by science they mean the science based on theories not empirical science-. All those are some of the creeds of atheism, not all of them, and still its creeds about morality, society and history aren't mentioned.

Atheism is a collection of faith-based creeds. Atheism alone believes in the non-existence of boundaries between good and evil, and the only one that denies the law of causality, and believes that coincidences are capable of building without destructing. All the creeds of atheism are outside the realm of reason and morality, and still we didn't talk about its position towards humanism.

Not believing in god doesn't keep one from believing in ideals, ideas or humanity. The only difference is Atheists don't personify ideals and call them god. What answer people really need and which ones they are willing to accept is very different from person to person. If one doesn't worry about a certain question (like the afterlife), why should he.
First of all, you "believe" in ideals because they are beautiful, then the existence of a good god is more beautiful than ideals, why don't you believe in Him? Either you believe in all what is beautiful or not believe at all, because all the beautiful things have one pattern.

Moreover, how can the atheist believe in ideals when they don't see a separating line between good and evil? And there are no ideals that mix good with evil.

Let's explore the root of ideals, why are they ideals and why are they beautiful? Who said so about them? It is religion, not interests as atheists think. Interest produced capitalism and usury, why aren't they beautiful the same way loyalty, generosity, patience, and chastity are? Can we put loans and profit margins next to mercy and love?

In other words, you say that humans' goal is their material interests through society. If they are like that then be certain that they will not produce ideals which are given sacredness and respect by all, they will produce utilitarian methods.

Thus, ideals have gained their value from the idea of the existence of a god. If you respect ideals while being an atheist you are now a burden on religion, because those ideals are originally religious. How can you dispose of the idea of God without disposing His ideals?

Historically speaking, there has never been an atheistic society so we can know whether it can create its own ideals by itself or not. Atheism is new and taken from religious environments, that is why atheists are burden on religion concerning ideals. Also, atheism as a materialistic thought that only believes in interest, it is a revolution against ideals. Consequently, true atheists don't believe in any ideals except their material interest, and don't believe in a difference between good and evil that can hinder reaching those interests. Therefore, a true atheist is without ideals, otherwise their atheism will be incomplete, and will be needing courses with Nietzsche to learn the meaning of materialism and interests and that they are the opposite of ideals. Ideals require good alone, whereas atheists don't believe in a difference between good and evil because they view personal interests as the starting point, and interests need evil sometimes, and hypocrisy needs good sometimes, that is why they don't believe in the difference between good and evil. This idea proves that this atheistic thought is hypocritical and worships its self and its lusts.

God is important to you because so much, your whole world view depends on it.
Is He important because my world view depends on Him, or my world view depends on Him because He's important?

You won't find any atheist that gives you a list of all the alternative answers because atheism is just the opposite of theism and in all of theism the answers are endless (towards stuff like why are we here, where do we go, ...).
Atheism provides answers, and all of them are illogical and unconvincing. Doesn't atheism explain our existence with evolution? and the existence of the universe with the Big Bang from the cosmic egg that came from nothing? And that chaos created order, purpose and system? Aren't those universal explanations? Add to them that everything will go to nothing (nihil), no difference between good and evil, no retribution on them, no God, no afterlife – as if they searched the whole universe!-. Atheism even explains history the way it likes, like when it explains the emergence of religions and humans. It also knows the psychological motives behind religion which is fear of recurrent natural phenomena like eclipses and earthquakes..etc. What is left to answer?? Everything is explained by atheism! That's why it's a religion, because it fills our heads with illogical explanations and they attribute them to science, while they aren't empirical, and the "science" of atheism is unempirical. It even chooses from the unempirical science explanatory theories like Darwinism, multiverse, and the huge M-Theory and empty from the inside which they call a theory of everything, and through which atheists wanted to explain everything, so how can you say that atheism didn't explain anything?

M-Theory is a list of alternative answers that leave nothing without explaining in a materialistic way, even the sleeper's dreams. That's why atheism is an alternative religion, no matter how much you try to escape this fact.

Do you know Satan that is mentioned in religions and his ideas? These ideas are the features of the atheistic religion, i.e. the opposite of religion as you said. Atheism is the opposite of religion, and if religion is from God, then its opposite will be from the Devil. Thus, atheism depends on the ideas of the Devil, even if it doesn't believe in the Devil nor God. What believers call the ideas of Satan are what atheism depend on, because they are the opposite of religion, and you said that atheism is the opposite of religion.

Keep in mind that even monotheism is a fairly new concept compared to how long people made up religions. The aborigines did fine without.

The idea of evolution of religion from polytheism to monotheism is only an atheistic assumption, because it's illogical. Everything that is worshiped is/are symbols of that one invisible power controlling the universe. Look at polytheistic religions and you'll find that they have a greatest god that created the rest, like Zeus in Greece and Brahma in Hinduism which is followed by Shiva and Krishna. Thus, the atheistic theory of evolution and applying it on religions is false. Even if man worshiped a rock they view it as a symbol to communicate with that Greater Power creator of the universe. Idolaters know that their idols and totems aren't what created them and the universe, but are only a connection to Him, because they are symbols for spirits and holy people loved by that invisible power. That's why they see no problem in having many of them, for all roads lead to Rome. From this came the diverse multiple gods.

Your atheistic theorization of evolution of religion is inaccurate, and you won't be able to provide a philosophical or psychological cover for evolution of religion from polytheism to monotheism. All you have is saying that monotheistic religions came after polytheistic ones, that's all the evidence you have. You know that that the last religions are Judaism, Christianity and Islam and they have divine books, and you think that older religions have no relationship with the One God, and that is a fatal analytical mistake. Any person, no matter where they live or in what period of time, cannot worship anything that they don't believe it to be the creator and regulator of the universe, and logically speaking that can only be one. Therefore, monotheism is the basis of all religions, and it is not an evolution from them.

Actually, what took place is exactly the opposite of what atheists think, the beginning is monotheism then associating other gods with God and not polytheism. That is what the great Quran that always speaks the truth clarifies, it didn't talk about polytheism but talked about having associates with that one great God creator of the universe.

You can understand the whole issue with logic alone, don't take my word for it. As for your idea of evolving from many gods to one, it can't be understood in terms of logic. Because logic doesn't accept the idea of worshipping multiple gods, except when they are specialized like a god of rain or a god of war or a god of love…etc, and they all follow one great God, whom the whole acts of worship is basically for, and the rest of gods are only associates and means to Him. Logically speaking, all branches trace us back to one basic trunk. This is the story of the polytheistic religions, they point to monotheism when you deeply think about them.

Prophets were fighting the idea of the other associates with God and not polytheism, in order to make all worship go towards God only, because He is the all-knowing so there is no need for mediators which are taken as symbols of fanaticism through which people are exploited to pay charities. And because He is the creator of all people He is the closest to them, the one who can listen to them and know what they are feeling. Hence, how can a dead rock be respected to the degree of worship more than the Creator? This is not fair, and prophets wanted to keep people away from this associations with God.

As for the atheistic idea about the origin of religion, it is false in all respects. Even when they discuss it, because atheists view religion as manmade and hence search for how they people created it. While atheism is what is manmade in the 18th century and should be investigated how it came about, why, and for the interest of whom? Atheists think that people were scared of natural phenomena and from everything that their mind couldn't explain, so they attributed them to God! That is an analytical error; because existence in and by itself required from people to know that there is a god even when there was no danger, not only things they fear or ignorant of. Why? Because their idea of God is of a good god, even though things happened to them which they consider evil, so how can they attribute them to God whom they view as good?

When a car is suddenly turned on and start moving by itself people will not scream and say that a god is running it, they will say: a magician or jinn who did so, that is when they are incapable of giving a logical explanation. If we assume that a goat started speaking, will people say that god is speaking inside that goat? Or will they attribute it to magic and evil spirits and the like? i.e. they will attribute those scary phenomena to an evil power not a good one. Also, through God they explained the whole universe not only the speaking goat, i.e. God is the cause of the whole existence not only a cause of an evil phenomenon. Here the atheistic idea of god of the gaps falls apart, because magic and demons are what's going to fill the gap in people's imagination and not God. The bad phenomenon is logically followed by evil powers, and this is evidenced by fact that they turn to God to make them make them survive those phenomena, i.e. to stop the evil spirits, because he's the creator of all existence including evil powers.

Durkheim imagined that primitive tribes were worshipping evil powers because they were fearing their evil. but that's not a religion, because religion is built on love not fear, and love needs a symbol for good. The imagination that assumed the existence of those evil powers it assumed the existence of even more powerful good powers a fortiori. This is evidenced by the fact that religious rituals in all religions are practiced in atmospheres of love and not atmospheres of horror. This proves that the basis of religion is love not fear. If religion was built on fear of natural phenomena then fear would have the wider space of worship and rituals, and realistically speaking that's not the case. Therefore, the atheistic explanation for the phenomenon of religion is a weak one and don't stand for discussion, and no believer admits it even though they are the stakeholders. Thus, the atheists are inventing imaginations of the motives for religion without asking religious people whom they are talking about, which is an atheistic habit of putting forth assumptions and science fictions that they insists on calling them "science". They are like who make up a lie to believe and calm their conscience with, because now they KNOW the reason behind religion. They assume that they have found out the reason behind the existence of religion, it's natural phenomena!! Which modern science had solved many of them, therefore no need for religion!! In a very simple-minded way!

As an apatheist I would argue it is both an unsolvable and unimportant issue.
You don't' seem to be apathetic and careless, actually you do care about the non-existence of God, as evidenced by all this long reply of yours.

And if an issue this huge doesn't concern you, how can you consider yourself a thinker or a philosopher? It's like you are saying: I don't care about the realm of thought! For the implications of belief in God and atheism are in all aspects of life. Thus, belief or disbelief in God is the most important intellectual and philosophical issue, and you detach yourself from this most important issue to man. If we leave the most important issue of any field, then we aren't considered participants in that field-which is the field of thinking. This atheistic doctrine which is called "apatheism" should be the called doctrine of rejecting thinking and philosophy. i.e. a simple-minded doctrine. In other words, the followers of this sect of atheism should be called the simple-minded practical atheists. Or we can call it the escaping doctrine, escaping from the big questions that occupied humanity's mind for ever, and escape is a sign of weakness not power.

That's not to mention the impossibility of believing that such a big issue never occurred to you and concerned you; because you don't have an alternative. Anything that doesn't matter to us we have an alternative for it, else it will stay important no matter how many times we claim otherwise, and you have no alternative. Therefore, your claim about the insignificance of the existence or non-existence of God is false.

And if such an issue doesn't concern you, then what does concern you? Arrange the priorities for us so we can see.

Until that god properly reveals himself, I don't see any point in assuming any which one is worth praying too.
The issue isn't which god to pray for. The issue is admitting the existence of a God inclusive of the whole universe. It's an issue called for by logic and reason. It's not a matter of choosing the favorite color of your scarf or tie to say that: I don't care about all ties. Presenting things in a shallow way doesn't make them shallow. You are like who says: neither life nor death concern me! You'll be asked: then what concerns you? Let alone that you'll not be believed that you don't care. The apathiest is simply a shy atheist.

Now you have neglected reason and kept eye-sight in the matter of God's existence, but reason also exists not only eyes, and you use reason in your daily life not only your eyes. Then this method for seeking an answer to the question is false. Reason necessarily leads to God's existence, and you want to escape reason to eye-sight. Reason leads to the truth the same way sight does, and in our daily lives we use both. The atheist agrees with us on depending on both reason and sight, except in one issue that they hate which is the existence of God, and refer it to sight only, prohibiting the mind from thinking about it. We , however, aren't students of them and they aren't our masters, their mastery is over those who obey them. We only obey reason when presented to us. The atheist wants to stop reason whenever they want and use it whenever they want, this is their business. We want reason to shed its light on all issues that are in the field of reason, and the existence of God is the most important one of them, for every created there is a creator, and that's one of the simplest axioms of reason. The atheist wants to take us away from the axioms of reason to the void of nothingness, without presenting a convincing alternative, and yet insists that he's a mentor!

Who has knowledge doesn't refer you to an unknown, but to a known. Who refers you to an unknown does he deserve to be called your mentor?

I also don't need to make anything up or convince myself into any incoherent narrow world view for for my own spiritual health.
This statement is a declaration of bankruptcy and incapability of finding an alternative. If you had one you would have presented it.

One of the psychological tricks is neglecting the important thing by who can't understand it and describing it as insignificant. All humanity, however, see that it's important except you! What is important to you if the biggest issue that ever concerned humanity isn't? even though you couldn't provide an alternative. It's easy to provide alternatives for the insignificant thing, while you admit the impossibility of the existence of an alternative, so is the matter still insignificant?

How can you describe a thing you can't find an alternative for as insignificant? You can't find an alternative for water, and someone might say: I don't care about water, even though it has no alternative! Hence, the purpose of your existence, where you came from, good, evil and truth all do not concern you. Imagine something being described this way, could it be called significant? Excuse me, but you degraded yourself and made it insignificant, even though you don't feel insignificant. Imagine something that has no value nor role in anything, that's where the atheists put themselves. Is that honorable as atheists usually aspire to be gods? Or is it degradation? And atheists love themselves and describe them as gods! And yet they made themselves of no value, purpose, and creator, as if they are particles of dust that came from nowhere and going nowhere. This is how the atheist sees his life and existence, and that is why the dark nihilistic thoughts are taking over their minds, which open the door to the thoughts of suicide under the influence of the idea of nothingness.

Apatheism is a legitimate child of nihilism that cares about nothing, or let's say it claims so, because a human can't live caring about nothing, and our thinking is mostly involuntary. Our thinking isn't always voluntary as urinating. Thus, the apatheist do care, but they resist their concern in front of others to prove to them that they don't care. Excuse me, but we don't believe this huge amount of carelessness because you are a human being like us. Here you are writing in my thread about belief in God, so are you careless? Where is the evidence for your carelessness? Carelessness requires that you don't read nor write about a field that talks about religion and the existence or non-existence of God. So are you careless about your writings here also? and writing without much concentration? People aren't preoccupied with things they don't care about.


Materialism isn't quite as limited as you might think. The only thing not allowed is handing unfounded reality claims for certain planes out like free beer or equalizing some planes of discussion into the same corset. Technically one can even be an atheist without being a materialist by going into solipsism or simply handing out arbitrary realness levels for spiritual stuff without accepting anything that is regraded as a god in monotheistic religions.
On what did they base those spiritual explanations? You denied the existence of God after a materialist thinking, so how can you believe in spiritual stuff that you didn't see? Those spiritual stuff you'll believe in their existence and abilities, are they gods? Are they created? Who created them? Or they are creators and so are alternatives for God? Reason requires a lot of work from us and not just carelessly throw words and walk away.

You want us to just stop where your answers are, but reason wants us to complete and go further in order to understand. Have you seen that reason is on the side of belief in God and not with you while you are being an atheist? This is evidence by your need to stop it every time.

You have contradicted your method by yourself! Reason doesn't allow such penetrations. Every method requires generalization in order to apply it. You said you won't believe in God until He reveals himself to you, while believing in spiritual powers which you didn't see with your eyes! Now you are unmethodical. You just hate the God that in religions, and ready to believe in anything else but Him even though you don't see them! Isn't that a partiality and unfairness? That's why I tell you that the atheist is a materialist and should keep being so, and the method through which you denied and negated you should also prove through it. How can you begin with being a materialist and end up spiritual? This is manipulation of methods.

Therefore, you're unscientific in your study. You hate something called God, and you'll reap the fruits of this hatred if He exists; because you are prejudiced against Him, and believed in things that you didn't see but not Him even though reason leads to Him more than those spiritual things which logically need His existence. And since man can't harm the Great Creator, then you have harmed and have been unjust with yourself and made yourself liable to His punishment, because you've been prejudiced against Him even though He calls for good. Hence, you should continue being a materialistic and don't jump from one method to another. A materialist should keep being a materialist, at least to make him/her have mental features and not be outside the realm of reason, and s/he shouldn't debate with reason after s/he have broken it.

How can you be indifferent to whether God exist or not while you have all this prejudice against Him? And willing to believe any spiritual myth but not believe in God, even though reason supports this belief? The fact is that you do care about His non-existence, and this is evidenced by your own words not mine. So, how do you claim something and apply another?

Dualism is a child born out of necessity but just like free will problematic. In poor philosophy nihilism is actually one of the most logical concepts there is. People just don't like its conclusions.
How? Explain all phenomena through nihilism so we can understand. Duality exists in reality, and free will exists in reality. Denying reality needs another reality, and that's impossible. Reality can't be negated with imaginations and assumptions. Reality isn't always a friend to the atheist.

Morals can also be understood by looking at how worldly laws which span over many different people and populations came about and changed over time. Absolute morals are the thing that religious people don't want to live without but that doesn't make the concept illogical, just the receivers unwilling to accept the conclusions and/or unwilling to look at the reality of things.
It's good that you come back to reality after soaring high with sci-fi, but reality doesn't support your claim. You've picked one angle to view morality with which is worldly laws, and laws are governed by interests more than morality. Notice that morality can't be turned into laws like the laws of space, why? Since the basis of morality is material interest as your materialistic view says? You can't provide a convincing reply and you'll just repeat what you've already said.

Look at morality as a whole in reality, don't single out one angle, and tell me why doesn't everybody apply morality? And yet it's still exiting? Even though they are unwritten laws and the state isn't obliged to act upon it. And tell me why do some people, and not all of them, sacrifice so much even their lives for a principle? Is that a worldly law? Is material interest what made them do that? Where is their interest when they are losing their life? Do you think that you'll be believed? This is reality speaking.

Thus, the atheist explanation of morality is inaccurate as its habit of inaccurate explanations, like when it explained the existence of religion with fear of natural phenomena. And now explaining morality with interest-based motives like eating, drinking and security etc. Atheism is having a difficult time explaining man and their behavior, while doesn't face the same difficulty in explaining matter and its behavior, because its view is materialistic.

Just imagine what would be moral if you were a white shark. A loner in the sea with no friends, family or anything.
Dealing with yourself requires morality, dealing with the environment requires morality, dealing with animals requires morality, and dealing with God if you're a believer requires morality. All that while you're a loner white shark.

Have you seen that atheism is not accurate when explaining man's behavior and motives? It believes in evolution while its ideas are the same since 150 years! With no evolution, they're just repeated in different forms but the meaning is one.

The full materiality of man is actually something with a lot of scientific evidence as far as we can go today. Emotions aren't decoupled and neither is the soul and we can influence both via the use of drugs. Materialism doesn't say that emotions don't exist just that they are abstractions that are entirely dependent of physical processes and would not be without them and vice versa. Dualism is actually the one that has very little support among the scientists and philosophers that tacle the theory and specifics of mind.
This evidence can be turned against you. The body has no existence without the feelings and soul, the body without consciousness is a dead body or in its way to death. Therefore, this isn't an evidence for the full materiality of man. Just like feelings have no existence without the body, so is the body has no existence without the feeling and the soul.

Also, feelings and thoughts are different than the matter of the body. They have no material substance and can't be seen under the microscope. They are what control our bodies, and they are more important to us than our bodies, so how can we be only mater while non-matter is more important to us than matter? We even sacrifice our material bodies for immaterial things which you admit their existence- which are feelings and ideas. The brain turns into dust after death, so where are ideas and feeling in the pile of dust if they have material existence?

Have you seen that you have no evidence for the full materiality of man while you have the desire for it? Even this desire to prove the full materiality of man isn't a material thing that can be examined under the microscope! Then we are metaphysical beings. The materialistic philosophy on which you depend is in its aging days, because its views are very deficient and humanity will surpass it. Because it can't provide convincing explanations. it only believes in the senses which have no value without reason, and reason is immaterial. Therefore, the materialistic philosophy is essentially a metaphysical philosophy.

Hence, man is a collection of matter and non-matter, i.e. a body and a soul, and not only a body as the materialistic eye sees, and not only a soul.
What you said about drugs is inaccurate also as the atheistic habit of explaining the human being. Drugs can't make us hate whom we love, nor love whom we hate. They only affect the material brain and make it a good connector or a bad one. They don't alter the nature of our feelings and ideas as much as they cause disorder and confusion, or activity and clarity. If drugs were able to alter the nature of our feelings or ideas then the issue is resolved and we won't be needing courts and jails, all we have to do is give the criminal drugs and he becomes Santa Claus!

The same way mater affect our feelings, so are feelings affect our matter. Our concerns and worries make have dangerous diseases, like Irritable bowel syndrome, ulcers, high blood pressure and diabetes etc. our psychological and intellectual stability make us enjoy a good health, and statistics have proved believers to have better health condition that atheists, so is the psychological state and suicide rates. Doctors admit the effect of the self on the body, and they refer all internal diseases to reasons which psychological stress is the most important.

So, how can we get out of this dilemma -the dilemma of body and soul-? We have no choice but to admit the existence of both and their effect on each other, and leave aside the idea of the full materiality of man. This is what reason can accept. Desire, however, can neglect reason along with other things.

The fact that each of them –feelings and soul- affect each other is an evidence that they are distinct and not one thing as you want them to be, because the body has many material parts which we don't feel their effect on each other, because they are one thing: matter. While in feelings and body we feel this effect and interaction between them. Things of the same kind are in homogeneity among themselves, while the different thing becomes distinct, just like oil and water.
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CosmicPathos
11-17-2012, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You are equating Atheism with a gun killer? Come on man!
He is not equating it with murder. He is saying that there is no difference in thinking process of the two.
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M.I.A.
11-17-2012, 10:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
or a god that created the universe and turned its back on it as in the god of the deists and irreligious people…etc.
thats probably the easiest to answer.

a quick copy paste job.

We did not create the heavens and the earth and everything between them as a game. We did not create them except with truth but most of them do not know it. The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 44,Verse 38-39

He Who created death and life to test which of you is best in action. He is the Almighty, the Ever-Forgiving. The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 67,Verse 2

Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts) of hearing and sight. The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 76,Verse 2

Not for (idle) sport did We create the heavens and the earth and all that is between them! If it had been Our wish to take (just) a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence, if We would do (such a thing)! The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 21,Verse 16-17

That which is on earth We have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them – as to which of them are best in conduct. The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 18,Verse 7

i guess thats the approach to take with people of such thinking and an indication of the purpose of this life, maybe even the nature of god.

it is indeed a question of faith.
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Pygoscelis
11-20-2012, 05:44 AM
Well I see Al-Warraq still refuses to listen to atheists and understand what we actually think and believe (or don't believe). His endless stream of straw man claims about what atheists must believe and hold as creeds rolls on. I lost count of straw men after just a few paragraphs of that long post. It's impossible to reply to given all the false assumptions about atheism and what atheists believe.
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Pygoscelis
11-21-2012, 06:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
Disbelief in God is claim no.1, but they didn’t mention the other claims resulting from it, like the full materiality of man including mind and emotions, and this is a claim without any scientific evidence. Also claiming that morals are created by human for the sake of interests, and that they are not rooted in ourselves. This claim is opposed by reality, mind and morality, and this chain of illogical claims goes on.
Looking back at the OP, does anybody here agree with these assumptions about atheism?

He is saying that atheism requires the full materiality of man including mind and emotions. Where does this idea come from? There are plenty of atheists who are not materialists.

He is also saying that atheism requires morals to be created by humans for the sake of interests and not rooted in ourselves. Where does this idea come from? I don't know a single atheist who believes in morality solely by culture and interests. All the ones I have met (including myself) believe in an innate sense of empathy. Similar senses of empathy, to one degree or another, can be seen in many other social animals as well (dolphins, dogs, chimps, etc). We just don't accept that this innate sense was put in us by a God.

He then goes on to ignore what actual atheists here actually believe, as he clings desperately to his imagined atheist views. I have noticed that happens a lot here. Why do people do that so often? It'd be like me saying Muslims must all believe X, and then going on to ignore muslims here saying they don't believe X and don't know of any muslims who do believe X. Telling others what they must believe in the face of them telling you they don't is a very strange phenomenon.
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Pygoscelis
11-21-2012, 09:12 PM
What do you mean by "atheism at the physical level" ?

And what do Einstein's theories have to do with it? I think he was a deist.
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M.I.A.
11-21-2012, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Looking back at the OP, does anybody here agree with these assumptions about atheism?

He is saying that atheism requires the full materiality of man including mind and emotions. Where does this idea come from? There are plenty of atheists who are not materialists.

He is also saying that atheism requires morals to be created by humans for the sake of interests and not rooted in ourselves. Where does this idea come from? I don't know a single atheist who believes in morality solely by culture and interests. All the ones I have met (including myself) believe in an innate sense of empathy. Similar senses of empathy, to one degree or another, can be seen in many other social animals as well (dolphins, dogs, chimps, etc). We just don't accept that this innate sense was put in us by a God.

He then goes on to ignore what actual atheists here actually believe, as he clings desperately to his imagined atheist views. I have noticed that happens a lot here. Why do people do that so often? It'd be like me saying Muslims must all believe X, and then going on to ignore muslims here saying they don't believe X and don't know of any muslims who do believe X. Telling others what they must believe in the face of them telling you they don't is a very strange phenomenon.
ok so basically as an athiest you must be materialistic.. not in the traditional sense of the word but if you believed in anything other than the material world...

you would not be an athiest?


you must also have a world view..

im sure you do because you have a mind and emotions.


so if there is no god.. how does the world work?

without god there is still slavery..

everybody reports to a higher up.

work, social, family..

its better not to see those links because the world falls apart rapidly the more you analise it.

but as long as there is no conflict of interest... you probably wont mind.


its almost the illusion of free will because if you neglected or rejected those authorities or figures of respect within your life... then it would fall apart.

so tell me about morality again.

i mean most would say as long as you've been told by somebody to do something its ok.


i mean wheres the distinction between authority and morality.. i get that you are a part of what you are a part of..

but your presumably still complaining about syria and palestine.. burma.. somalia.. the list goes on.. (that one was for the muslims)




and the athiest movement is something that is represented. and as an athiest you should be very worried.

because, believe it or not...

there is a viewpoint and agenda being pushed and people are being taught what to think..

much the same as any religion you care to look down upon.


its a nice signature you picked.


as i know it there better had be a god and a heaven(in the traditional sense of the word), because iv pretty much rejected all...

ever thought about the immaterial world?

...at the very least it should make you think about slavery a bit more.
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Independent
11-21-2012, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What do you mean by "atheism at the physical level" ?
I suspect that he means 'Physics' rather than 'physical'. In other words, he believes that Einstein's contribution to physics has been 'disproved'. For some reason he equates Einstein's physics with atheism.
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Pygoscelis
11-23-2012, 11:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
ok so basically as an athiest you must be materialistic.. not in the traditional sense of the word but if you believed in anything other than the material world...

you would not be an athiest?
This is a misconception I tried to address on page 1 of this thread. Atheist means the person lacks a belief in Gods. It does NOT mean they lack beliefs in other non-materialist claims. Atheists can believe in ghosts. Atheists can believe in spiritual energy. Many budhists and taoists are atheists, in that they don't believe in Gods. Jedi from Star Wars are also atheists. Scientologists are usually atheists. There is a tendency for atheists to be skeptics (since they are skeptical about religious claims they are more likely to be skeptical of other claims), but not all atheists are skeptics, and not all skeptics are atheists. The two are not the same thing.

you must also have a world view..

im sure you do because you have a mind and emotions.
Yes, but not a uniform world view for atheists in general. Without religion telling us what to think we are influenced more by other social factors, and by figuring things out for ourselves. When you don't have a ready made answer for things, you are forced to think them out for yourself. I do think atheists tend to be less authoritarian, more liberal, and more individualistic (caring less about group cohesion and being less subject to peer pressure) than most theists, but that may be essential to breaking free from religious belief in a society dominated by it.

so if there is no god.. how does the world work?
I find it refreshingly honest to admit we don't know everything about everything.

i mean most would say as long as you've been told by somebody to do something its ok.
Just following orders? I find that incredibly and disturbingly authoritarian. We did see this in the Milgram experiments. I agree that we do have an innate drive to for social hierarchies and to subject ourselves to and follow authority figures. I find Abrahamic religion to be the ultimate expression of this, and it is one of the things about abrahamic religion that most disturbs me. The Christian Bible has Abraham being ordered by God to kill his son. It pits obedience to authority directly against morality and the God sides with obedience. And Islam means "surrender" right?

Along with group think and tribalism I hold authoritarianism to be one of the ugliest aspects of human nature, and that we should strive against it.

i mean wheres the distinction between authority and morality.. i get that you are a part of what you are a part of..
The confusion of obedience for morality in people absolutely terrifies me. It is how you can get well meaning people to engage in atrocity. If you confuse obedience for morality then there is no evil you won't do, so long as I can convince you a proper authority demands it of you.
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M.I.A.
11-24-2012, 11:21 AM
i wrote a big post and then deleted it.

i wont insult your intelligence, a lot of people get away with playing dumb.

i think your in the same boat as the rest of us.

heard and seen everything but god.



....the rest is just a question of faith.
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Roasted Cashew
11-25-2012, 06:02 AM
Atheism: the religion devoted to the worship of one's own smug sense of superiority.
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Pygoscelis
11-25-2012, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Roasted Cashew
Atheism: the religion devoted to the worship of one's own smug sense of superiority.
Abrahamic Religion: The false modesty and self depreciation that you are nothing without an authority figure, but that the creator of the universe designed it with you in mind.
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Al-Warraq
11-25-2012, 06:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by joesixpack
If by "atheism" you mean "Materialism", then this is very true. The philosophical difference between materialism and idealism is very important. But one must remember that not all atheists are materialists.
Philosophically speaking, all atheists are materialists. Who leaves materialism has partially left atheism, and such a case is irrelevant to our topic.

Atheists became atheists on the basis of the materialistic view that depends on the senses, who leaves this view has left atheism either partly or completely. The immaterialist atheist has deviated from the creed of atheism and should not be considered an atheist thinker, because he left the materialistic method which he started from. Who adopts a certain method should continue to apply it in order for him to deserve to be named after that method. A scientist, for example, must continue to apply the scientific method, otherwise he'll not be called a scientist. So is the atheist, s/he should continue to apply the materialistic method otherwise s/he will not be called an atheist and can't be compared to the atheist who's devoted to his materialistic creed.

The trouble with many atheists (at least many of the ones whom I have known) is that they claim to be atheist and yet still remain idealistic in their outlook. You will see this among the so-called atheists who advocate for imperialist wars "for the sake of" everything from women's rights to free speech. These are the "atheists" who are openly hostile towards religion and regard it as contrary to human development. They often see religion as the cause of conflict (there is a very strong anti-Palestinian tendency in this camp) and ignore the economic causes.
Well said, but I wonder what's the connection between their materialism and atheism, and their advocacy for a religious country like Israel which was founded on the basis of the Torah?!

This reveals to us the connection between the paradoxes, which created atheism in the first place and urged people to leave their religion and convert into this unknown religion. Although the destination of this unknown religion makes it quite known.


Conversely, most materialists don't actually even describe themselves as atheists. Not because they believe in God, but because the idea of a materialistic universe doesn't actually allow for a non-material entity (for a very good discussion on this point of view, google "Why Marx Was Not an Atheist" and click on the top result. Sorry, I can't post links yet). For my part, I view religion as a demonstrably natural development of human social and cultural structure.
Thanks for enriching the thread and for the valuable information, and I agree with what you said at first, so you are very welcome my dear friend.

I disagree with you, however, on the idea of religion as a product of natural development, this is a common and false idea. The existence of atheism is an evidence of its falsehood. Does the development of religion leads to its complete opposite? That if we consider atheism- as they do- as the starting point. Religion exists since the existence of man, because of the existence of reason and feeling within people and prophets, and those two always lead to the existence of a higher will created the universe and regulated it, and created man and guided them through prophets in every human nation.

Also, where is development in religion when we see followers of the three religions go back to their old origins through the fundamentalist movements? And where are the new religions since religion is developing? The last religion is 15century-old.
The idea of development and evolution in any field -except civilization- is an incoherent idea. Civilization, industry and science are what develops, but man is man, their religious feeling is the same, their needs are the same, and all living beings are the same in their rejection of change and evolution.

The idea of evolution is taken from science and industry after the amazement with the advanced technological achievements, and has been generalized on everything including nature! We should get rid of the idea of generalization that mixes issues together, like generalizing the idea of evolution and development on everything.


What are materialists to make of religion? What are idealists to make of religion? The idealist is a moralist who must attribute to "character" human actions rather than admit material causes. Have some crimes been committed in he name of religion? Certainly there have been, but they are anomalies. Fifteen terrorists flew airplanes into buildings, you may say. Over one BILLION did not. Those billion looked after their neighbors children, helped a sick friend, smiled at a stranger, or struggled to save a strangers life on that very same day.
In my view, I consider the idealist philosophy a form of materialism, through the mind that reflects matter. I see the true opposite of materialism to be moralism/immaterialism. Morality has an immaterial basis even if it comes out in the form of material behavior. The materialist person sees the right thing to do is to take as much as he can from people's money without giving them anything, because he aims to accumulate money which is material, and giving it away reduces this accumulation. The moral person motivated by love and mercy gives that money away to gain love, i.e. his motive is immaterial which is something the materialist doesn't admit.

The rationality of Socrates, Hegel or Kant shouldn't be called idealism, it should be called rationalism, because materialism depends on the senses and the idealist philosophy depends on the mind, and both mind and the senses are looking towards matter. The word "ideal" is taken from Plato's theory of ideas not from the idealism which means righteousness and goodness.

Thus, there is a shortage in the western philosophy, a shortage of the moral philosophy, which exists in the soul of Islam regardless of the different sects.

Socrates is the first to direct philosophy from the materialism of the atomists and sophistics towards rationality, that's why he is considered the founder of the idealist philosophy in which he took attention away from matter to the mind. In other words, materialism views matter through the senses, rationalism views matter through the mind, and that's why it didn't give much attention to experiments.

Thus, western philosophy is materialistic since the times of the Greeks, with its two wings: the purely materialist and the rational idealist. Non of them, however, paid attention to the immaterial motives which are the depths of man. Mind and behavior are outer layers compared to the immaterial/moral part of humans (the innate feeling).


I can't speak for all materialists, but I view religion's role in society as a social construct that reenforces humans altruistic behavior. If you look at the net behavioral effect of religion, we see that it has been the rationalization for a lot of the charity, mercy, and compassion in the world. The idealist is incapable of taking this view because he is unable to see the materialist causes and effects of human thought and action.
This proves what I said above that the idealist is eventually a materialist. And I do claim that without religion altruistic behavior wouldn't have existed and had respect in human civilizations, without religion it would be an ambiguous behavior and a vague feeling. That if we consider non-religion = materialism, and materialism doesn't admit altruistic behavior.

That doesn't mean that religion brought the altruistic behavior form nothing, it does exist in the innate human nature, but religion is what brought it out from vague innateness to reality and turned into a social virtue.

Notice that the weaker religion gets the stronger selfishness and materialism becomes. And materialism is the furthest away from altruistic behavior, which gives us an indication of a link between altruistic behavior and religion, and it's not just reinforcement.


In a way, the idealist atheist has only denied the existence of one sort of god, yet he has created a substitute to which he is willing to sacrifice human life. Poor people must starve to protect the "right" of a wealthy person to hold on to every penny that is "rightfully" his. A wedding party in Afghanistan must be collateral damage in order to continue a war against people who are the enemies of western "progress".
Yes, all those are western materialistic ideas, and all are false as you can see. Which means that there is a disproportion between the materialistic philosophy and human morals. This also proves the connection between reason and morality, and that morals are existing facts and not mere emotions.


Should the Muslim or Christian fear the materialist? Or should he feat the idealistic atheist?
They are both materialists. And any materialist causes fear even if they were religious. When a person becomes materialist it turns him into a monster alien from his human nature, making him/her deny the existence of mercy, love and values which humans know and respect. A materialist person is like a machine, and we certainly fear a machine that gives no value to our feelings.
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Al-Warraq
11-25-2012, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Didn't we already have this thread? This is pretty much identical to the other atheist thread the OP started. It is the same empty claims and I am betting he will again ignore the responses to them.
I have replied to your response and you were the one who ignored my response, and even now you are not replying! You just describe the topic as empty claims like you did in the previous thread.

You can reply to claims you don't like, what's stopping you from refuting what I claimed even with little words since you are so sure that's they are wrong and trivial? And that all truth is on your side? Why hesitate?


I would like to see him have a discussion on here with an atheist scientologist or atheist taoist or an atheist ghost hunter. Atheism does not equal materialism. Atheism really is no more than a lack of belief in Gods. Anything beyond that isn't mere atheism, but something else combined with atheism.
Atheism is a disbelief in God. How did the atheist reach this truth? It's from the materialist thinking that relies on the senses. Therefore, the atheist is a materialist. Is that a mystery?
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Logikon
11-26-2012, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq

Therefore, the atheist is a materialist.

We are not only materialist. We also have morals. We have 2 dimensions.

Our morals came to us via........see the book I quoted above.

.
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Al-Warraq
11-26-2012, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
If you eat french fries with cheese or with garlic dipping sauce or dressed up in ketchup it is the same thing no? same baseline, same foundation, different dressing!
Same principles apply. Same double negative exists, same questions remain, same answers applied, same mazes of weak sophistry, same conclusions in the end!

Exactly what I wanted to say..
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Al-Warraq
11-26-2012, 10:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
Reminder to my brothers and sisters, sometimes anger and impatience evaporates from your posts till everyone gets a sense of it.

Please answer clearly with Allaahs pleasure in mind or the shaytan will cause us to do more harm then good.

Atheism is the way of the lost whos hearts have become darkenned from a state of forgetfulness of Allah, thus Allah has forgotten them.

Thats all I have to say about them, if they return to Allaah in sincerity then their hearts will find a light thats been lost for a long time now.
Those words need someone to listen to their heart in order to be fruitful.
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Al-Warraq
11-26-2012, 10:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by joesixpack
Now I'm hungry for french fries.

If "atheism" is a french fry, then "materialism" is the restaurant where they are served.
Words of an expert..!
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Al-Warraq
11-26-2012, 10:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
That's the best thing I've read here in a while. I've never seen a forum with such sustained hostility.

And almost for the first time this is something that extends a welcome to non-Muslims.

This forum is supposed to be open to non-Muslims as well as Muslims. But if every single remark is to be treated with such venom then perhaps it would be better to close it to non-Muslims altogether and be done with it. Even visitors who are falling over backwards to be considerate are getting abuse.
I agree with you, and I want the non-Muslim to say all what s/he thinks, so that the truth is cleared for whoever wants it. I say that and I'm a muslim to God.
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Pygoscelis
11-26-2012, 06:04 PM
The immaterialist atheist has deviated from the creed of atheism
There is no "creed of atheism". You can keep demanding that there is, but that doesn't make it so. Atheism is simply the lack of theism - the lack of belief in Gods. Anything more you add to that is no longer mere atheism.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
Philosophically speaking, all atheists are materialists. Who leaves materialism has partially left atheism, and such a case is irrelevant to our topic.
Wrong.

When a person becomes materialist it turns him into a monster alien from his human nature, making him/her deny the existence of mercy, love and values which humans know and respect.
Wrong.

You are continuing to make and repeat false claims about what atheists think and feel, even in the face of actual atheists telling you that you are mistaken. You claim to speak for our hearts and minds and say we are wrong about what we tell you we actually think and feel. So you are either calling us liars or ignoring us altogether. How are we to react to that?
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glo
11-26-2012, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Also claiming that morals are created by human for the sake of interests, and that they are not rooted in ourselves.
Pygo, I think he is referring to the idea that morals have been evolved (and that certain attributes usually only survive and develop when they are of benefit for the species) and are not given by an external entity.
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aamirsaab
11-27-2012, 01:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Looking back at the OP, does anybody here agree with these assumptions about atheism?
I don't. Maybe that's because I have friends of all kinds, including atheists.

I think it's wrong to make assumptions and generalisations about anyone - regardless of their faith. Being ignorant about atheism is just as bad as being ignorant about theism.

p.s: Pygo, if you ever happen to come to the UK, please let me know and we can do lunch.
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Independent
11-27-2012, 02:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
I agree with you, and I want the non-Muslim to say all what s/he thinks, so that the truth is cleared for whoever wants it. I say that and I'm a muslim to God.
Exactly. One of the benefits of a site like this is that it allows people who might not otherwise meet to share their understanding of the world - even if it completely opposite. I respect your point of view and I'm interested in it. Having said that, i substantially disagree with you!

My main problem with what you say is that it in no way resembles what I see around me. I feel as if you are basing your image of all atheists on the model of Richard Dawkins, who is in fact a very particular and unusual atheist.

In the UK, I know so many people who have slipped gradually from ‘low religion’ to ‘no religion’ very slowly over the course of their lives. Typically they were brought up Christian and (like Muslims in a Muslim country, or Buddhists in a Buddhist country) simply assumed that was the way to go.

Until imperceptibly, without noticing, without even thinking about it much, they ceased to believe. There never was a moment of decision. Even now they might be uncomfortable with being called outright an ‘atheist’. They certainly don’t want to talk about it.

In the vast majority of cases, their moral behaviour hasn’t changed one bit. They have the same principles, the same capacity for altruism or charity that they always had. They also have all the same faults. Even though you may say that without a God underpinning their morality, it should fall apart, that’s not what happens.

They are in fact neither better, nor worse, than they were before.
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Pygoscelis
11-27-2012, 07:32 PM
I think that a lot of our moral values come from within, from empathy, etc, and then we seek to explain it after the fact, and religion is one very powerful way to do that. I always find it interesting when the two conflict though, for example if Allah told you to kill your wife and children, would you do it? I think you have to be pretty far down the path of religious indoctrination to lose your independent sense of morality and say yes to that. Usually the answer will be something to avoid the conflict, like "Allah would never demand that" (which hopefully is what the person would believe true).
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glo
11-27-2012, 08:35 PM
^
If you look at the story of Abraham being told to kill his own son (Isaac in the Bible and Ishmael in the Qu'ran), then your comments are not so far fetched.
Would Abraham have sacrificed his son, if God had not intervened? Generally speaking, Abraham is revered for being so faithful and obedient to God, and considered an example to believers.

I agree that most of us would consider anybody who killed another person because "God told him so" to be criminally insane.
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Independent
11-27-2012, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
If you look at the story of Abraham being told to kill his own son (Isaac in the Bible and Ishmael in the Qu'ran), then your comments are not so far fetched.
On this subject Glo, there's a fascinating read in a book called 'Mimesis' by Erich Auerbach. You just need to read the chapter comparing the Jewish God with the Greek gods of the Odyssey. The Greek world view is entirely on the surface. No subtext, no hidden motives. Whereas the Jewish God is enigmatic in the extreme, especially in moments like this.

It's one of those moments when a whole people start to look at the world in a different way - akin to the Renaissance, or the 'discovery' of perspective in art.
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aamirsaab
11-27-2012, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think that a lot of our moral values come from within, from empathy, etc, and then we seek to explain it after the fact, and religion is one very powerful way to do that. I always find it interesting when the two conflict though, for example if Allah told you to kill your wife and children, would you do it? I think you have to be pretty far down the path of religious indoctrination to lose your independent sense of morality and say yes to that. Usually the answer will be something to avoid the conflict, like "Allah would never demand that" (which hopefully is what the person would believe true).
In fairness, Islam doesn't really place any moral dilemas amongst it's followers (save perhaps euthanasia), so whilst I see your argument I don't think it's fair to use. Blind following, indoctrination and dogmatism is "doing it wrong" as far as religion, specifically Islam, is concerned.
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YusufNoor
11-28-2012, 01:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think that a lot of our moral values come from within, from empathy, etc, and then we seek to explain it after the fact, and religion is one very powerful way to do that. I always find it interesting when the two conflict though, for example if Allah told you to kill your wife and children, would you do it? I think you have to be pretty far down the path of religious indoctrination to lose your independent sense of morality and say yes to that. Usually the answer will be something to avoid the conflict, like "Allah would never demand that" (which hopefully is what the person would believe true).
if you think, you don't know. if one has no inherent positive values, and is an atheist, then is it OK for said atheist to be a murderer? if they are no concrete reasons that murder is unacceptable, does that make it acceptable?

and if you say murder is unacceptable, where are your proofs?

wouldn't it make more sense to say that you are agnostic and that you haven't figured it out yet? especially since your observations make you think that religious folks are nutjobs? therefore the source of their "nutjobism" must be false?

if someone says, "i don't know" then that seems a valid statement. but if someone says, "no way absolutely not!" to something that they can't actually prove, are they not as unjustified, in your opinion was someone who says, "this is absolutely true!" but then can't prove it?

and if you have NO PROOF that your belief is correct and someone else has some evidence that they believe offers some proof, which of the two, seems more logical?

on a much lighter note, according to Einsteins "theory of relativity", does the universe even exist? check the vid:



peace
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Logikon
11-28-2012, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
If one has no inherent positive values, and is an atheist, then is it OK for said atheist to be a murderer?

If they are no concrete reasons that murder is unacceptable, does that make it acceptable?

No murder is not acceptable because for a healthy society to thrive murder has to be against the law.

As I said it is explained in the book I quoted above.
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CosmicPathos
11-28-2012, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Logikon
because for a healthy society to thrive murder has to be against the law.
A society can also be healthy if stronger people murder weaker people. Your definition of healthy is quite wrong.
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YusufNoor
11-28-2012, 02:31 AM
uh oh, i was talking to pygo, but w/o reading your book some cultures use infanticide and [whatever the one you kill old people is called] in order to have a healthy society. so, your saying that is OK?

and book aside, isn't war murder? abortion? not feeding a starving person? eating too much, thus depriving someone else of food? just plain wasting food? how do you decide? and not some guys book, he ain't here. if we are going to choose books, let's use the Qur'an. i'm not interested in other ones to use in deciding what is right. you'll have to make your proof by your lonesomeness.

if murder has to be against the law, how do you validate GW Bush? Dick Cheney? Bibi Netanyayhoo? Obama's killer drones?
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Pygoscelis
11-28-2012, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
if one has no inherent positive values, and is an atheist
Do you equate the two?

wouldn't it make more sense to say that you are agnostic and that you haven't figured it out yet?
I would have to ask the same of you and your brothers and sisters of faith. It is the religious far more than the non-religious that claim to know with certainty. I have actually never met an atheist who is absolutely certain in their mind that there is and can be no Gods. Though I am not one of them, I actually know some atheists who lost their belief and wish they could have it back.

especially since your observations make you think that religious folks are nutjobs? therefore the source of their "nutjobism" must be false?
Not all religious folks are nutjobs.

if someone says, "i don't know" then that seems a valid statement. but if someone says, "no way absolutely not!" to something that they can't actually prove, are they not as unjustified, in your opinion was someone who says, "this is absolutely true!" but then can't prove it?
Yes. I agree with that. I can not absolutely disprove a lot of things though, including space alien visitors, Shiva and Vishnu, the Loch Ness monster, and faeries. I do not cite these examples to mock your faith. I cite them because there are or were believers in each of these, often holding those beliefs as central to their identities, as you likely do with Allah. I also cite them because you nor I can disprove them and we likely view their likelihood of being true similarly, so it can give you a sense of how I and many other atheists view your own belief. When you make incredible claims that are not falsifiable, you shouldn't really expect others to believe them if they were not raised or indoctrinated into your culture.

and if you have NO PROOF that your belief is correct and someone else has some evidence that they believe offers some proof, which of the two, seems more logical?
First, atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of a belief. It is saying that we don't believe in the Gods people tell us are out there.

Second, to have any proof or evidence to disprove the existence of Gods, first there would have to be concrete and falsifiable claims of said Gods. It is exceedingly rare that any such falsifiable claims are laid out by theists, and when they are, and when they are then shown to be false, the goal posts always move.

uh oh, i was talking to pygo, but w/o reading your book some cultures use infanticide and [whatever the one you kill old people is called] in order to have a healthy society. so, your saying that is OK?
I suppose that depends on how you define a healthy society. Such cultures usually have religions by the way, so this really isn't a theism vs atheism thing.

and book aside, isn't war murder? abortion? not feeding a starving person? eating too much, thus depriving someone else of food? just plain wasting food? how do you decide? and not some guys book, he ain't here. if we are going to choose books, let's use the Qur'an. i'm not interested in other ones to use in deciding what is right. you'll have to make your proof by your lonesomeness.
Empathy forms the basis. On top of that, social culture and cooperation influences what we see as right and wrong. Authoritarianism and tribalism do as well. This is true both inside and outside of religious context. I find the study of what forms our senses of moral values fascinating. And yes, religion plays a big role in this for many.

As I said above, I believe that religion acts as both an authoritarian force for the priest class to influence the masses, and also as an after the fact justification for beliefs we already hold and actions we already wish to take or have taken. It is a powerful social force that can encourage both charity and atrocity. It encourages social cohesion and the tribalism that comes with it (which has both its positive and negative aspects).

if murder has to be against the law, how do you validate GW Bush? Dick Cheney? Bibi Netanyayhoo? Obama's killer drones?
Personally, I oppose all of them.
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Pygoscelis
11-28-2012, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
A society can also be healthy if stronger people murder weaker people. Your definition of healthy is quite wrong.
You define a society in which the strong murder the weak as healthy? Such a society sounds pretty sick to me.
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YusufNoor
11-28-2012, 04:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Do you equate the two?

absolutely not.

I would have to ask the same of you and your brothers and sisters of faith. It is the religious far more than the non-religious that claim to know with certainty. I have actually never met an atheist who is absolutely certain in their mind that there is and can be no Gods. Though I am not one of them, I actually know some atheists who lost their belief and wish they could have it back.

not sure, i believe that many folks claiming to be religious are agnostic. they do things because "someone told them too", not because they understand something.

Not all religious folks are nutjobs.

no, but when evaluating religions we tend to look at the "nutjobs" as the main reason that religion is poor.

Yes. I agree with that. I can not absolutely disprove a lot of things though, including space alien visitors, Shiva and Vishnu, the Loch Ness monster, and faeries. I do not cite these examples to mock your faith. I cite them because there are or were believers in each of these, often holding those beliefs as central to their identities, as you likely do with Allah. I also cite them because you nor I can disprove them and we likely view their likelihood of being true similarly, so it can give you a sense of how I and many other atheists view your own belief. When you make incredible claims that are not falsifiable, you shouldn't really expect others to believe them if they were not raised or indoctrinated into your culture.

not sure if this will make sense, but "kuffar" in it's strongest sense means one who has rejected Islam. i don't see most non Muslims as that. i see them mostly as folks who reject what Muslims portray as Islam. i think mis-portraying Islam is much worse than rejecting it. when i first became Muslim, i had a bunch of taxi drivers what the best way for them to make dawah was. based on all of the many complaints i heard about them, i said, "quit being a**holes." they were not very receptive. i went on to explain that being totally rude to people, driving like maniacs and condemning people for not being Muslim isn't the correct form of dawah. be polite, kind and helpful, make your clients feel safe. if you can't do that, please don't let the know you are a Muslim. and if you CAN do that, don't worry about making dawah, you already have.

First, atheism is not a belief. It is the lack of a belief. It is saying that we don't believe in the Gods people tell us are out there.

that is my point. i only studied Islam so i could show a lady friend what was wrong with it. turns out, nothing was. Muslims, well that is a different story.

Second, to have any proof or evidence to disprove the existence of Gods, first there would have to be concrete and falsifiable claims of said Gods. It is exceedingly rare that any such falsifiable claims are laid out by theists, and when they are, and when they are then shown to be false, the goal posts always move.

you claim God doesn't exist, but you can't prove it. i don't go on atheists web sites and tell them they are wrong. i don't do it on Christian or Jewish web sites either. it is totally an alien concept for me to not believe in God. it is EASY to not believe in religion, but that is 2 different things. if you say "i don't know", that seems an honest and fair answer. if you want to claim, "God does not exist" here on an Islamic site, then i would say that it IS up to you to prove it. you can't, so you should only say that you disagree.

I suppose that depends on how you define a healthy society. Such cultures usually have religions by the way, so this really isn't a theism vs atheism thing.

no, but they still are trying to determine what is best.

Empathy forms the basis. On top of that, social culture and cooperation influences what we see as right and wrong. Authoritarianism and tribalism do as well. This is true both inside and outside of religious context. I find the study of what forms our senses of moral values fascinating. And yes, religion plays a big role in this for many.

are there any rules saying that an atheist must be empathetic?

As I said above, I believe that religion acts as both an authoritarian force for the priest class to influence the masses, and also as an after the fact justification for beliefs we already hold and actions we already wish to take or have taken. It is a powerful social force that can encourage both charity and atrocity. It encourages social cohesion and the tribalism that comes with it (which has both its positive and negative aspects).

we can all deny religion or aspects of (a)religion. you are denying that God exists. i merely ask for proof of your claim.

Personally, I oppose all of them.
i can agree that some aspects of some religion might seem or actually be bad for society. how does denying the Creator benefit society?

peace
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Pygoscelis
11-28-2012, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
you claim God doesn't exist
No I don't. I just don't believe Gods do exist. There is a difference.

, but you can't prove it.
Correct. I have no evidence to disprove the unfalsifiable claim of Gods existing. I have no way to be 100% certain that they don't, in the same way that I have no way to be 100% certain that the alien space visitors, faeries, etc don't exist.

i don't go on atheists web sites and tell them they are wrong.
I don't come to this board to tell Muslims they are wrong or to ridicule them as some here like to accuse me of. I originally came here following 9/11 to dispel myths I had heard about Muslims and Islam from conservative Christians. I stuck around because I made some friends here. I have never had any interest in intruding on the fellowship subforums of this board, and I stick to this one and world affairs one pretty much exclusively, where I feel an atheist's perspective may be of some value.

I ask you to read the first few posts on this thread. The OP is a series of false statements about atheists and atheism. I and some other atheists addressed these misconceptions and the thread flowed from there.

it is totally an alien concept for me to not believe in God.
Then all the more reason to go visit those atheist boards. I would also encourage you to participate on Christian, Jewish, etc boards. It makes for much more interesting conversation when you have people from different viewpoints, if you can find a board which is civil and accepting of that. Yes it can be rough sometimes, but so long as you converse and do not preach you should be welcomed and it is on them if they are abusive. Avoid as best you can taking that bait and try not to snap back at the trolls and moderators should step in if that happens too much. You've seen this in regard to non-muslims posting here. Sometimes you do have to have a thick skin, but I really think it is worth it for the cross-cultural conversation. When everybody has the same view things get very dull and very group think very fast.

are there any rules saying that an atheist must be empathetic?
It isn't about rules. It isn't authoritarian. It is nothing more than a lack of belief in Gods. Anything beyond that isn't mere atheism.

So no, there is nothing particular about atheism that would make one more empathetic, besides basic biology. If anything, it is more the lack of some religions' authoritarian overriding of empathy that may give atheists an edge over some theists in that regard. I get alarmed when I see some religious people burying their own moral compass under an allegiance to what some authority figure (speaking for God) tells them is right or wrong. That takes us back to the question of "would you kill your family if God commanded it" etc. I once saw an interview with a Catholic man who was asked his opinion on some social issue and he responded "What does the Pope say? I have to know what the Pope says because that is my opinion". That is scary eh? He had no independent consideration.
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Hulk
12-01-2012, 05:44 PM
hi pygo would u mind sharing your thoughts on this clip?
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GuestFellow
12-01-2012, 07:01 PM
What are we supposed to be talking about? I've lost the plot. Should I go back to sleep? : P

I think people develop their morals through experience and communication with other human beings if they do not follow a religion or raised in a culture that follows no religion.
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Pygoscelis
12-01-2012, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GuestFellow
I think people develop their morals through experience and communication with other human beings if they do not follow a religion or raised in a culture that follows no religion.
That plus basic biological empathy.
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Pygoscelis
12-01-2012, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
hi pygo would u mind sharing your thoughts on this clip?
I myself lean towards materialism, but you do NOT have to be materialist to be atheist. There are plenty of non-materialist, non-naturalist atheists. Atheists can even be spiritual. They just can't believe in Gods.

This video says that being a materialist makes you think you are a God. That I can assure you is not so.
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Hulk
12-01-2012, 10:21 PM
Thanks pygo, I honestly didn't notice that the guy in the vid says that materialists elevate themselves to the status of being a god until you mentioned it.

I rewatched the vid and near the end the guy says that naturalists elevate themselves to god because they are in charge of their own destiny. I guess you disagree with this? For me I say no because I believe I am at the mercy of God, so I'm interested as to why you would disagree to it as well. Is it because of the possibility of being a victim to circumstance?
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Pygoscelis
12-01-2012, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
Thanks pygo, I honestly didn't notice that the guy in the vid says that materialists elevate themselves to the status of being a god until you mentioned it.

I rewatched the vid and near the end the guy says that naturalists elevate themselves to god because they are in charge of their own destiny. I guess you disagree with this? For me I say no because I believe I am at the mercy of God, so I'm interested as to why you would disagree to it as well. Is it because of the possibility of being a victim to circumstance?
Yes. I can control my destiny to a certain extent, or at least I can have that illusion (depending on how we resolve the issue of determinism vs free will), but I do not have super powers or anything like that, and I am subject to the world around me. I can't fly or control the actions of other people, etc, anymore than you can, and I am also influenced by social forces and my sense of empathy etc.
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Al-Warraq
12-17-2012, 08:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Exactly. One of the benefits of a site like this is that it allows people who might not otherwise meet to share their understanding of the world - even if it completely opposite. I respect your point of view and I'm interested in it. Having said that, i substantially disagree with you!

My main problem with what you say is that it in no way resembles what I see around me. I feel as if you are basing your image of all atheists on the model of Richard Dawkins, who is in fact a very particular and unusual atheist.

In the UK, I know so many people who have slipped gradually from ‘low religion’ to ‘no religion’ very slowly over the course of their lives. Typically they were brought up Christian and (like Muslims in a Muslim country, or Buddhists in a Buddhist country) simply assumed that was the way to go.

Until imperceptibly, without noticing, without even thinking about it much, they ceased to believe. There never was a moment of decision. Even now they might be uncomfortable with being called outright an ‘atheist’. They certainly don’t want to talk about it.

In the vast majority of cases, their moral behaviour hasn’t changed one bit. They have the same principles, the same capacity for altruism or charity that they always had. They also have all the same faults. Even though you may say that without a God underpinning their morality, it should fall apart, that’s not what happens.

They are in fact neither better, nor worse, than they were before.

I have several comments on what you've said. First, you said they leave Buddhism or Christianity or Islam…, as if God's existence is Christianity or Islam or Buddhism. God's existence is another issue that's related to logic above all else.

Those people you talked about, why didn't people do like them in previous centuries? If what happens to them is natural it would have existed in all civilizations. This leads to the fact that atheism is propagandized for. It's not emanating from the human thinking itself, otherwise it would be a wide-spread phenomenon in all religions throughout their history, but history doesn't testify to that. Atheism emerged in the nineteenth century as a product of a supported and propagandized conspiracy, which created the evolution theory at the time of the emergence of atheism to support it.

Second, you say they left religion without noticing, without thinking and without deciding, how can that be? This is an evidence of media brainwashing not an evidence of awareness, because they didn't think, notice nor decide. This didn't happen to other civilizations, they either adhered to their religions or converted to another religion, but they don't say: there is no creator for this universe! If they did people will doubt their mental capabilities.

The collection of all the atheistic theories is what justified for some people to drink this mixture strange from nations and civilizations which is atheism. Especially when they are unempirical and unproven theories that are merely covered with robe of science, and easily believed by those who easily give their trust.

In the vast majority of cases, their moral behaviour hasn’t changed one bit. They have the same principles, the same capacity for altruism or charity that they always had. They also have all the same faults
Now you are complementing religion. You're saying that their moral behavior when they were believers didn't change after they became atheists, atheism should make them more moral not the same as when they were believers. Even though this is improbable when we know atheism's hatred towards morality except when it serves interest.

To be a person with all your ideas utterly changed and yet be as you were, this can't be! This is neither logical nor realistic. Look how the ideas of atheism and materialism turned the world into immorality, with the world wars and the atheists Bolshevik wars which killed millions of people, and we have the west which turned into an insatiable mouth sucking poor peoples' blood, with the support of the materialistic theory which is based on pragmatism and the idea : ends justify the means.

In the 19th century onwards, when God retreated in Europe the claws of the devil came out. The more materialism and atheism spread the more Earth and human destruction spread; because religion is based on morality, and atheism is based on materialistic philosophy which doesn't believe in morality and believes in the survival of the strongest, and we can see this throughout history.

A moral atheist is either in a state of social hypocrisy or he's in a state of detachment from atheism and its cruel principles.

Atheists should realize what atheism is, philosophically not socially. Because the idea is like a rope that gradually pulls who holds it towards it.


In the vast majority of cases, their moral behaviour hasn’t changed one bit. They have the same principles, the same capacity for altruism or charity that they always had. They also have all the same faults. Even though you may say that without a God underpinning their morality, it should fall apart, that’s not what happens.
They are in fact neither better, nor worse, than they were before
Why? Those principles drive them back to their previous religion don't you think? How can they abandon their religion without abandoning its moral and behavioral effects? This is a deficient atheism, and shows how weak atheism is due to its inability to present an alternative.

The atheist at best is a burden on religion, while the devout atheist will dispose of all human values, because his thinking leads to private selfish material interest, and all moral values are there to trim the nails of selfishness. While atheism makes the person a source of moral legislation for it only believes in matter. Therefore atheism is against morality, and certainly not every atheist is a devout atheist which reduces the damage a little.

Atheism is based on the pragmatic materialistic philosophy, which makes the person an enemy to morality because it stands in the way of his interests and desires. Selfishness is against altruism, and atheism leads to selfishness. That's why you should thank the remnants of religion in some altruistic and moral atheists. Nietzsche, Dawkins, Hitchens and Marx aren't unusual atheists, they are its masters and leaders, and they all demean morality and look for alternative to it, and refer it to bourgeoisies and consider it an obstacle in the way of science as Harris and Dawkins say, or in the way of the atheist superman as Nietzsche says.

Who chooses an approach should be aware of what it is, and should be able to show its good qualities and defend it, not accept it without thinking nor deciding, that's for the sake of reason.
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Independent
12-17-2012, 11:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
Who chooses an approach should be aware of what it is, and should be able to show its good qualities and defend it, not accept it without thinking nor deciding, that's for the sake of reason.
Perhaps they ought to. But they don’t.

That's because there are major differences in cultures around the world. If you are brought up in an environment where a particular religion and culture is very strongly instilled (eg Islam) then to leave that religion is a big issue. What’s more, it’s so wrapped up in visible cultural behaviour that your absence of faith will appear to everyone else as a challenge.

In western countries such as the UK that is no longer true. In centuries gone by, being a Christian demanded much more of people and it would be far more obvious if you were a non-believer. To leave the Church was a public act of defiance.

But today, with most people you know, you simply can’t tell whether or not they are religious unless you directly ask them. So for many people in the UK, ceasing to believe in God, heaven and hell is something that can happen quietly and without anybody really noticing.

Religion isn't just about morality. Islam is also a tremendously demanding religion from a lifestyle point of view. It affects the way you eat, the way you dress, the way you think about the arts, and so many other things. I am constantly amazed here to discover how many areas of day-to-day life are regulated, directed and channeled. No wonder why reverts here are constantly asking questions, it's exhausting. To leave Islam is to reconstruct your life in every detail.

Whereas, when you leave certain Christian churches, everything goes on more or less the same as did before. The effort to leave, the breach with your previous life, is minimal. For these reasons it does not require the big decision you think it does.

You may view this a fault of the Christian churches (you probably do) but in this thread we’re talking about faith versus atheism, not Islam versus atheism.
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CosmicPathos
12-17-2012, 11:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You may view this a fault of the Christian churches (you probably do) but in this thread we’re talking about faith versus atheism, not Islam versus atheism.
Is there any difference in faith in God and faith in morality/golden principle? You reject faith in former and uphold in latter, I see it as hypocrisy.

There is no scientific evidence to prove morality exists or ought to exist. Just because some studies show "moral" phenomenon, it does not mean it ought to exist. There is NO reason for it to exist.

Look at recent US killings. The killer was a child/teenager, so were most of those killed. Morality does not/ought not to exist.
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TJ-alcapone
12-17-2012, 12:08 PM
[quote=CosmicPathos;1557539]Is there any difference in faith in God and faith in morality/golden principle? You reject faith in former and uphold in latter, I see it as hypocrisy.[/quote

There is a very much a difference between faith in god and faith in morality. Having faith in god doesn't necessitate having to be moral. I suppose few would argue when I say that you can believe in god and yet be evil. History is mired with men who acknowledged faith in god and yet committed atrocious acts. How is that hypocrisy? You can be good and not believe in god, just as you can be good and believe in god.

format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
There is no scientific evidence to prove morality exists or ought to exist. Just because some studies show "moral" phenomenon, it does not mean it ought to exist. There is NO reason for it to exist.
Science will never give you purpose based answers such as those. Such questions are ludicrous in science. For example if you were to ask, why should there be a moon, science can give you many antecedent answers as to how that moon came to be. But if were to ask why should there be a moon at all, as though it has a purpose, then you are not on the scientific path anymore.
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TJ-alcapone
12-17-2012, 12:21 PM
The current consensus amongst the scientific world is that the answer for the origins of morality lie through the study of evolutionary psychology and neuro-science. I suggest you look into the work of the prominent neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran whose life's work is the field of behavioral neurology. Sam Harris, another prominent neuroscientist can be a good starting point as well. There was remarkable talk given by Frans de Waal a few months back at a TED conference, where he talks about morality in the animal world. Look it up on youtube, I can't post links on this forum yet. Truly eye opening talk. Humans are very anthropocentric in that we think we are the sole purveyors of morality. That is clearly shown to be the case through many different fields of study.
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Independent
12-17-2012, 12:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Is there any difference in faith in God and faith in morality/golden principle? You reject faith in former and uphold in latter, I see it as hypocrisy.
I most definitely do not have a ‘faith’ in morality, that’s not the right word. On the other hand, I am aware that I have moral standards which restrict and channel my behaviour. Where does this come from?

I can see that my personal morality has large overlaps with religious morality, and it also overlaps with the legal morality, if you can call it that (ie laws that control behaviour). But I don’t totally agree with either.

Part of my morality does indeed come from certain principles – eg do unto others as you would have done unto you. This has a Christian background, but you don’t have to be a Christian to follow it.

I could make some guesses as to why I have these moral standards, but the truth is I don’t really know. Nevertheless that’s how I organise my life. Many others are like me. How is that hypocrisy? What does it matter why a person is moral, if the outcome is the same? Morality can indeed exist independently of religion.
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CosmicPathos
12-18-2012, 12:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TJ-alcapone
The current consensus amongst the scientific world is that the answer for the origins of morality lie through the study of evolutionary psychology and neuro-science. I suggest you look into the work of the prominent neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran whose life's work is the field of behavioral neurology. Sam Harris, another prominent neuroscientist can be a good starting point as well. There was remarkable talk given by Frans de Waal a few months back at a TED conference, where he talks about morality in the animal world. Look it up on youtube, I can't post links on this forum yet. Truly eye opening talk. Humans are very anthropocentric in that we think we are the sole purveyors of morality. That is clearly shown to be the case through many different fields of study.
I dont need to read them to come to conclusion that morality is necessary. Morality is an undefined concept, neurologically, and genetically. There are no Moral genes such as Mor6, or Moral99.

I reject morality.
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Pygoscelis
12-18-2012, 04:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Warraq
Those people you talked about, why didn't people do like them in previous centuries? If what happens to them is natural it would have existed in all civilizations.
Many DID! And they were killed for it. People like this were executed for blasphemy, so does it really surprise you that fewer of them came out and admitted they were atheists? We have had a couple of extremists on this board argue that we should still kill atheists. Same thing with homosexuals. We've always had them, we just see more of it now because we tend to stop those who want to hunt them down and kill them with golden eagles.

Atheism emerged in the nineteenth century as a product of a supported and propagandized conspiracy, which created the evolution theory at the time of the emergence of atheism to support it.
This isn't true either. There is nothing in atheism that makes us support evolution. You can be an atheist and oppose evolution. There are people who believe we were planted here by space aliens, and who point to the ancient pyramids and mysterious ancient "landing strips" etc. Ever read "Chariots of the Gods"?

The collection of all the atheistic theories
What are "atheistic theories"? Atheism is just the lack of belief in Gods.... there are no theories.

Now you are complementing religion. You're saying that their moral behavior when they were believers didn't change after they became atheists, atheism should make them more moral not the same as when they were believers.
Why would it make them more or less moral? The only ways I can think of is that they may abandon obedience based stuff from the religion, like hating on homosexuals and non-members of the relgion, etc. And it may keep some sociopaths in line, but that is obedience not morality. I see no reason why they'd change their moral views. They'd have the same sense of empathy and they'd live in the same culture.

Even though this is improbable when we know atheism's hatred towards morality except when it serves interest.
The atheist at best is a burden on religion, while the devout atheist will dispose of all human values, because his thinking leads to private selfish material interest
You can repeat this hateful allegation over and over and over, and you have. But it still isn't true.

Your apparent inability to see morality as anything other than obedience to power is alarming, so I ask you again:

If your God asked you to kill your family, would you do it?

If your God demanded something of you that you would otherwise say is immoral, would you do it?

Can you conceive of any action you would refuse to do if God demanded it of you?

Is God Good because he stands for what is Good, or is Good Good because its what God demands?

And as asked above, if there was no God, would you truly have no moral sense?
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Pygoscelis
12-18-2012, 04:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TJ-alcapone
The current consensus amongst the scientific world is that the answer for the origins of morality lie through the study of evolutionary psychology and neuro-science. I suggest you look into the work of the prominent neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran whose life's work is the field of behavioral neurology. Sam Harris, another prominent neuroscientist can be a good starting point as well. There was remarkable talk given by Frans de Waal a few months back at a TED conference, where he talks about morality in the animal world. Look it up on youtube, I can't post links on this forum yet. Truly eye opening talk. Humans are very anthropocentric in that we think we are the sole purveyors of morality. That is clearly shown to be the case through many different fields of study.
Sam Harris never impressed me much. He's more about attacking religion than anything else.

Ramachandran on the other hand has some FASCINATING research. I recommend it to everybody to read up on the experiments he has done. They are very illuminating and you can learn a LOT about human (and non-human) empathy and how it works, and how it can go wrong, etc.

Frans de Waal TED talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_wa...ve_morals.html Interesting stuff.
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TJ-alcapone
12-18-2012, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Sam Harris never impressed me much. He's more about attacking religion than anything else.

Ramachandran on the other hand has some FASCINATING research. I recommend it to everybody to read up on the experiments he has done. They are very illuminating and you can learn a LOT about human (and non-human) empathy and how it works, and how it can go wrong, etc.

Frans de Waal TED talk: Interesting stuff.
I agree. I just brought up Sam Harris as he might be a familiar name. But in terms of science alone, I don't find his stuff nearly as interesting. Possibly because of his passive way of speaking and lacking descriptions. Ramachandran never fails to capture my imagination. Everything from his talks on phantom limbs, to synesthesia, to mirror neurons. And add to that the fact that he's Indian, I only share more with him philosophically speaking. I am simply enamored by everything about him.

I think the greatest innovations of the 21st century are going to be in the in the fields of biology and medicine. Our understanding of life is still very wanting. So with a more holistic understanding of evolution, pathology, anatomy and genetics, I think we can put this religious anthropocentric view of the world to bed once it for all. If I remember well, even Steve Jobs was quoted in his biography as saying that the biggest innovations of the 21st century would be in biology through the advent of better technology.
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Scimitar
12-18-2012, 05:05 PM
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