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Mathsisfun
11-14-2012, 07:20 PM
:sl:

I’m a Shia ithna asheri. I watched a video on YouTube and it is in my understanding that most Sunnis believe that the Shias say that the Holy Quran is incomplete. Frankly speaking, hearing what bad things people say against Shias really hurt me. Over the past few days, I’ve done some reading and tried enhancing my knowledge on the matter of Shias saying the Quran is incomplete.

My main aim of starting this thread is not to start up a conflict between Shias and Sunnis. Rather, I’d like it if I could clear out misunderstandings… If I’ve said something that has offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.

So here goes…

Al-Keleini had recorded in his book Al-Kafii that some Quran verses were deleted and thus the Holy Quran is incomplete. Why should all the Shias be accused of the belief in the incompleteness of the Holy Quran? Kuleini is an Imam of the Shias, and the Shias are not his followers. In fact, most Shias regard his book as unauthentic.

Al-Kuleini was no more than a hadith recorder. If a scholar like him made a mistake, why are millions of Shias, that are not even his followers, being blamed for his wrongdoings?

If such an accusation is permissible, why should we not accuse all the Sunnis of the belief of the incompleteness of the Quran because they are all followers of Caliph Omar who was quoted by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Imam Ahmad, and Ibn Mardawayh to have said that the Quran was incomplete, and that more than 200 Quranic verses were deleted?

We Shias believe that the Quran as it is now is the entire Quran without addition, subtraction, or any change. Allah has promised that He will protect the Quran: “Certainly We revealed the reminder (the Holy Quran), and certainly We shall preserve it.” (Chapter 15, verse 9)

We believe that whoever says the Holy Quran is incomplete, or was added to, or changed, is completely wrong.

I hope what was offered is sufficient to clear out the false accusation that is placed on all Shias.

Peace :peace:
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جوري
11-14-2012, 07:25 PM
:sl:

how do shias feel about this verse?

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Al-An'am (The Cattle) [6:159] [RECITE]
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Inna allatheena farraqoo deenahum wakanoo shiyaAAan lasta minhum fee shayin innama amruhum ila Allahi thumma yunabbiohum bima kanoo yafAAaloona
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Muwaahid
11-15-2012, 12:39 AM
I think one of the issues that needs clarification is that once you expressed the fact that you are shia and that you believe in taqiah it makes it diificult to trust anything you say because part of your deen allow taqiah. Secondly you made a claim that Umar said the Quraan was incomplete and you quote the sources Bukhaari and Muslim, have you searched these collecctions of hadeeth and located the aforementioned claim? Where in Bukhaari and Muslim did you read this, please give a source. As far as ascribing certain things to Islaam, this isnt a deen based on claims, no we are accountable for what we say is deen and we have to bring authentic ahadeeth and ayaat from the book of Allah and not only that, we just don't take the book of Allah and the authenticated sunnah alone, we need one more ingredient to be added and that is the understanding of the companions [radia allahu anhum] because they understood this religion best and there is no one to come after them and surpass them in their understanding and practical application of the religion. No one! Now im sure all the brothers and sisters on this site want good for you and want you to be guided aright because no matter what, no one wants any part of the fire of jahanam, of which some parts burn and destroy other parts of it, no one want to hear the hellfire breathe as it really does breathe, no one wants to see the hellfire shoot sparks of fire the size of castles, imagine a spark the size of castles, do you know the enormity of the hellfire if its sparks are the size of castles? Laa ilaaha illa Allah! Please look into your deen and ask youself, do you think that the creation of the heavens and earth and everything between them, the alternation of the night and day, the sending of messengers, and Allah revealing the books, and sending down revelations, causing the amr[the disposing of affairs] to descend between the heavens and earth for humanity, all of us,both muslim and kaafir alike so that Allah's deen could be incomplete and the deen in its totality would rest in the hands of twelve imaams? Do you actually believe that? That the verse where Allah says" Al Yauma Akmaltu Lakum Deenukum wa Atmamtu Alaykum Ni'matee wa Radhiytu Lakumul Islaama Deen" This day have I Perfected for you , your religion and completed my favor upon you and I am pleased with Islaam as your way of life." Listen, Perfected, and there can be no increase upon perfection right? Completed His favor upon us, look....Completed and Perfected, should we accept this from our Lord?' Perfect and Complete right? And Allah is what? Pleased with, look Allah said He is pleased and it is in the past tense form of the verb which indicates the action has been completed in its totality and no need to redo it ever again, Allah is pleased with Islaam as our way of life! Why is there a need for those Imaams? What could they possibly bring to a religion that Allah has perfected and completed and even more than that Allah is pleased with Islaam as our way of life. Allah Yahdeeki sister
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Good brother
11-15-2012, 04:38 AM
Moreover,The Shi'ahs do not believe in the present Qur'an to be authentic for three reasons:

First reason: The first reason ties in with the Shi'ite belief that that all the Companions of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.), the transmitters of the Qur'an, were liars. In addition, they belief that the Imams of the ahl al-Bait were also liars, and used to observe taqiyyah (religious dissimulation). If all the Sahabah and the member of the Prophetic household were lairs, from whence did they receive the original Qur'an from the Holy Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.)?
Second reason: The Sahabah, the lairs and fibbers in Shi'ite estimation, narrated the Qur'an and were responsible for its propagation and widespread recitation. On the other hand, the Imams of the Ahl al-Bait did not have the privilige and the opportunity of narrating it or verifying it, how can they then accept the present Qur'an to be perfect and in its entirety?
Third reason: There are more than two hundred narrations (regarded as authentic by Shi'ahs) in Shi'ite primary sources which testify that the present Qur'an has been tampered with, some things added, and some omitted. Not one Shi'ite narration speaks of the veracity of the present Qur'an, and according to them, it only occupies the status of an isolated tradition (khabr wahid).


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Mathsisfun
11-15-2012, 05:55 AM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
how do shias feel about this verse?
The verse refers to sectarianism in all religions, i.e. accepting a part and rejecting the other, or misinterpreting the word of God by one’s own imagination and not following the meaning rendered by the authentic sources commissioned by God. The best and the only authority on God, godliness and the correct interpretation of the Word of God after the Holy Prophet are the 12 Holy Imams. Referring only to this fact, the Holy Prophet declared: “The likeness of my Ahlul-bayt is that of the Ark of Noah, He who got into it was safe and he who turned away from it, was drowned and lost.” The Holy Prophet also said: "I leave with you two great things: the Book of Allah (The Holy Qur'an) and my Ahle Bait (members of the holy family: Ali, Fatima, and their progeny). If you cling to these two, never, never shall you go astray after me." This saying of the Holy Prophet has been universally been accepted by one and all the various schoolos of thought in Islam (Tafsir-e-Kabir, Tafsir-e-Duree-Manthur and others)

About the various schools of thought started in Islam, those who first misled the public from the right path, the path of the Holy Prophet and his Ahlul-bayt, are responsible for all the subsequent deviations. The straight line between two points can only be one, the right path of Islam is only that which was followed by the Holy Prophet and his Ahlul-bayt and this is the path of Shiaism, otherwise Shiaism is no new faith or creed.
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Mathsisfun
11-15-2012, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by Muwaahid
Secondly you made a claim that Umar said the Quraan was incomplete and you quote the sources Bukhaari and Muslim, have you searched these collecctions of hadeeth and located the aforementioned claim? Where in Bukhaari and Muslim did you read this, please give a source.
Muslim in the seventh part of his Sahih (commentary of An-Nawawi) in the book of Al-Zakat about the virtue of being satisfied with whatever God gives and about urging people to have that virtue, pages 139-40, reported that Abu Al-Aswad reported that his father said: Abu Musa Al-Ashari invited the Qur'an readers of Basra. Three hundred readers responded to his invitation. He told them: You are the readers and the choice of the people of Basra. Recite the Qur'an and do not neglect it. Otherwise, a long time may elapse and your hearts will be hardened as the hearts of those who came before you were hardened.

We used to read a chapter from the Qu'ran similar to Bara'ah in length (about 130 verses) and seriousness, but I forgot it. I can remember from that chapter only the following words: "Should a son of Adam own two valleys full of wealth, he would seek a third valley, and nothing would fill Ibn Adam's abdomen but the soil."

We used to read a chapter similar to the Musabihat and I forgot it. I only remember the following: "Oh you who believe, why do you say what you do not do? Thus, a testimony will be written on your necks and you will be questioned about it on the day of judgment."

It is obvious that these words which Abu Musa mentioned are not from the Quran, nor are they similar to any of the words of God in the Quran. Therefore, we can say that Abu Musa claimed that some of the Quranic verses are missing and thus claims the Holy Quran is incomplete.
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Mathsisfun
11-15-2012, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by Muwaahid
Secondly you made a claim that Umar said the Quraan was incomplete and you quote the sources Bukhaari and Muslim, have you searched these collecctions of hadeeth and located the aforementioned claim? Where in Bukhaari and Muslim did you read this, please give a source.
Muslim also reported in the book Al-Ridhaa (book of nursing), part 10, page 29, that Ayeshah [reportedly] said the following: "There was in what was revealed in the Qur'an that ten times of nursing known with certainty makes the nursing woman a mother of a nursed child. This number of nursings would make the woman ‘haram’ (forbidden) to the child. Then this verse was replaced by ‘five known nursings’ to make the woman forbidden to the child. Muhammad died while these words were recorded and read in the Qur'an.”

Again, this shows that Ayeshah said that some verses of the Quran were deleted.
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Mathsisfun
11-15-2012, 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Muwaahid
Secondly you made a claim that Umar said the Quraan was incomplete and you quote the sources Bukhaari and Muslim, have you searched these collecctions of hadeeth and located the aforementioned claim? Where in Bukhaari and Muslim did you read this, please give a source.
Bukhari recorded in his Sahih (authentic, part eight, pages 209-210) that Ibn Abbas reported that Omar Ibn Al-Khattab said in a discourse which he delivered during the last year of his caliphate: “Certainly Allah sent Mohammed with the truth and revealed to him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it. The messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am concerned that if time goes on, some may say ‘By God, we did not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God’; thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment the Almighty revealed. Stoning is in the Book of God. It is the right punishment for a person who commits adultery, if the required witnesses are available, or there was pregnancy without marriage or adultery is admitted.”
Al-Muttaqi Ali Ibn Husam Ad-Deen, in his book "Mukhtasar Kanz al-Ummal," (printed on the margin of Imam Ahmad's Musnad, part two, page two), in his hadith about chapter 33, said that Ibn Murdawayh reported that Huthaifah said: “Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of Al-Ahzab?’ I said, ‘72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it was the verse of stoning.”
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Mathsisfun
11-15-2012, 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by Good brother
Not one Shi'ite narration speaks of the veracity of the present Qur'an, and according to them, it only occupies the status of an isolated tradition (khabr wahid).
Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn al-Husain Ibn Babwayh, known as "Shaykh Saduq" (309/919-381/991), wrote: "Our belief is that the Quran which Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn). And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of surahs as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen...And he who asserts that we say that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."

Reference: Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, p77.
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Mathsisfun
11-15-2012, 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by Good brother
Not one Shi'ite narration speaks of the veracity of the present Qur'an, and according to them, it only occupies the status of an isolated tradition (khabr wahid).

Sayyid al-Murtadha, another prominent Shia Scholar said: "... our certainty of the completeness of the Quran is like our certainty of the existence of countries or major events that are self evident. Motives and reasons for recording and guarding the Holy Quran are numerous. Because the Quran is a miracle of the Prophet Hood and the source of Islamic Knowledge and religious rule, their concern with the Quran made the Muslim Scholars highly efficient concerning grammar, its reading, and its verses."
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Mathsisfun
11-15-2012, 06:38 AM
Originally Posted by Good brother
Not one Shi'ite narration speaks of the veracity of the present Qur'an, and according to them, it only occupies the status of an isolated tradition (khabr wahid).

Another prominent Shia scholar is Allama Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar who wrote in his Shia Creed book that:"We believe that the Holy Quran is revealed by Allah through the Holy Prophet of Islam dealing with everything which is necessary for the guidance of mankind. It is an everlasting miracle of the Holy Prophet the like of which cannot be produced by human mind. It excels in its eloquence, clarity, truth and knowledge. This Divine Book has not been tampered with by any one. This Holy Book which we recite today is the same Holy Quran which was revealed to the Holy Prophet. Anyone who claims it to be otherwise is an evil-doer, a mere sophist, or else he is sadly mistaken. All of those who have this line of thinking have gone astray as Allah in Quran said: "Falsehood cannot reach the Quran from any direction (41:42)"

Reference: The Beliefs of Shi'ite School, by Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar, English version, pp 50-51
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جوري
11-15-2012, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by Sukeina Khatau
The verse refers to sectarianism in all religions
No, it doesn't-it refers to sectarianism in Islam. It refers to them specifically as shia, it says nothing about 'ahel al-byet' since the prophet himself told us not to come to him with titles when we should come with deeds!
So it specifically applies to you and other shiites- people who bring a religion which wasn't revealed by Allah swt to the prophet, and people who innovate rendering their own translation to the Quran, making up their own number of prayers outside of what was prescribed. Taking other places for holy pilgrimage outside of Makkah, etc. etc.
People who lie against the sahabas and bring narrations never spoken by the prophet might as well choose a seat in hell. For it is indeed a grievous sin!


best,
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M.I.A.
11-15-2012, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Sukeina Khatau
:sl:

I’m a Shia ithna asheri. I watched a video on YouTube and it is in my understanding that most Sunnis believe that the Shias say that the Holy Quran is incomplete. Frankly speaking, hearing what bad things people say against Shias really hurt me. Over the past few days, I’ve done some reading and tried enhancing my knowledge on the matter of Shias saying the Quran is incomplete.

My main aim of starting this thread is not to start up a conflict between Shias and Sunnis. Rather, I’d like it if I could clear out misunderstandings… If I’ve said something that has offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.

So here goes…

Al-Keleini had recorded in his book Al-Kafii that some Quran verses were deleted and thus the Holy Quran is incomplete. Why should all the Shias be accused of the belief in the incompleteness of the Holy Quran? Kuleini is an Imam of the Shias, and the Shias are not his followers. In fact, most Shias regard his book as unauthentic.

Al-Kuleini was no more than a hadith recorder. If a scholar like him made a mistake, why are millions of Shias, that are not even his followers, being blamed for his wrongdoings?

If such an accusation is permissible, why should we not accuse all the Sunnis of the belief of the incompleteness of the Quran because they are all followers of Caliph Omar who was quoted by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Imam Ahmad, and Ibn Mardawayh to have said that the Quran was incomplete, and that more than 200 Quranic verses were deleted?

We Shias believe that the Quran as it is now is the entire Quran without addition, subtraction, or any change. Allah has promised that He will protect the Quran: “Certainly We revealed the reminder (the Holy Quran), and certainly We shall preserve it.” (Chapter 15, verse 9)

We believe that whoever says the Holy Quran is incomplete, or was added to, or changed, is completely wrong.

I hope what was offered is sufficient to clear out the false accusation that is placed on all Shias.

Peace :peace:
i find it funny.. that you yourself as a shia..

had to read up on how we differ.


the wonders of the internet.

dont worry the next generation might still be taught but the reverts will never look the same to you again.

have a nice life.

...same to us cultural sunni's


ah hum...

actually read your post.

cool.
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Muwaahid
11-15-2012, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Sukeina Khatau
Muslim also reported in the book Al-Ridhaa (book of nursing), part 10, page 29, that Ayeshah [reportedly] said the following: "There was in what was revealed in the Qur'an that ten times of nursing known with certainty makes the nursing woman a mother of a nursed child. This number of nursings would make the woman ‘haram’ (forbidden) to the child. Then this verse was replaced by ‘five known nursings’ to make the woman forbidden to the child. Muhammad died while these words were recorded and read in the Qur'an.”

Again, this shows that Ayeshah said that some verses of the Quran were deleted.
I went to Saheeh Muslim in the Arabic and what Imaam Muslim mentioned in his saheeh in not what you mentioned, there is no mention what so ever of 10 feedings nor any abrogation of any verses whatsoever, nor is imaam muslim's saheeh set up like you have mentioned, the book of ridhaa, yes, section ten yes but there is no page 29 in the mutammid version in other words the basis of the book. Again your resources are deceptive, and not in agreement with reality,so tell me, have you gone to these sources yourself or are you copypasting material from shias sources or copypasting material from google?Listen, I truly feel sorry for you if this is your mode of belief and action and dawah,I can't imagine worshipping Allah upon lies and falsehood and deception. Must be quite a miserable existence. "'Realize that lies and falsehood and deception isn't ibaadah, yaa Subhaana Allah ish hadha?
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جوري
11-15-2012, 09:40 PM
Al-Anbiya (The Prophets) [21:18] [RECITE]
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Bal naqthifu bialhaqqi AAala albatili fayadmaghuhu faitha huwa zahiqun walakumu alwaylu mimma tasifoona
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Muwaahid
11-15-2012, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Sukeina Khatau
Bukhari recorded in his Sahih (authentic, part eight, pages 209-210) that Ibn Abbas reported that Omar Ibn Al-Khattab said in a discourse which he delivered during the last year of his caliphate: “Certainly Allah sent Mohammed with the truth and revealed to him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it. The messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am concerned that if time goes on, some may say ‘By God, we did not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God’; thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment the Almighty revealed. Stoning is in the Book of God. It is the right punishment for a person who commits adultery, if the required witnesses are available, or there was pregnancy without marriage or adultery is admitted.”
Al-Muttaqi Ali Ibn Husam Ad-Deen, in his book "Mukhtasar Kanz al-Ummal," (printed on the margin of Imam Ahmad's Musnad, part two, page two), in his hadith about chapter 33, said that Ibn Murdawayh reported that Huthaifah said: “Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of Al-Ahzab?’ I said, ‘72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it was the verse of stoning.”
again the saheeh of bukhaari isn't set up on how you reference its orgin, I don't even know where to begin sukeina, i urge you to search through bukhaari and reference it yourself because its clear that the sources you are quoting are not accurate, you have been lied to sukeina, misled, come to ahlus sunnah wal jamaa'ah, come to true islaam, come to the truth, abandon the ways of the shias, it isn't true Islaam. If you recieved these quotations from your people or shia sources,then know with certainty that they decieved you and they do not have your best interest at heart.
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Hulk
11-15-2012, 09:57 PM
If you can trust the Companions(ra) of the Prophet(pbuh) to compile the Quran I think you can trust them to lead the ummah.
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UmmuShaheed
11-28-2012, 08:41 AM
Asalamu Alaikum,
Sister,
The so called Imams and Scholars have gravely misguided many muslims Including yourself into believing Shiasm is apart of Islam.
Open your eyes Inshallah, if your sincere; Allah swt will guide you to the truth. (And May Allah Swt guide the rest of us as well)
From what I understood about Shia beliefs
-Aisha (ra) "Poisoned the prophet " and did many other Unspeakable acts astagfurallah
-Many of the Early companions are hated and cursed regularly.
I dont really have time to continue my list now..but
I want you to ask yourself Some questions.
Do you think the prophet of Allah would have been oblivious to the 'true' nature of the people he's surrounded with?.
Abubakar His closest companion, Aisha the most beloved person to him,
And not to mention Ali ra. He named his children after Abubakar, Umar, And Uthman.
Would he name his Children after the 'vile' people shias claim they are?
~Shias add many Innovations.
And remember hadith the best of the Ummah was the generation of the prophet, the following generation, and the one Following that generation.
Shiasm Didnt exist during those generations .. If It was the truth , it would have came out then.
Best,
Asalamu Alaikum.
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