WHATS your views on Sharia Laws

[ck1986]

I was wondering what views do majority of the Muslim think about the Sharia Laws.

[ck1986]

I was wondering what views do majority of the Muslim think about the Sharia Laws.

I find it really hard to understand and accept the fact that if and when a Muslim sins he or she is stoned to death for their sins. Isnt they fact on why Allah created Judgment Day, to judge people for their actions and if required to punish them. Didnt Allah told us not to murder anyone? Didnt Allah created us, isnt Allah the one who can only take our life way and punish us.

[Hulk]

You should attend some classes maybe learn about Islam.

[ck1986]

You should attend some classes maybe learn about Islam.

Then tell me why in most Muslim Country's it was Banned

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[Aprender]

I find it really hard to understand and accept the fact that if and when a Muslim sins he or she is stoned to death for their sins.

Brother, this is NOT a fact. You really need to learn about Islam. This sounds like something someone who is an enemy to Islam wrote and you are taking it as the truth when it is far, far from the truth. Please educate yourself about your religion.

[ck1986]

Brother, this is NOT a fact. You really need to learn about Islam. This sounds like something someone who is an enemy to Islam wrote and you are taking it as the truth when it is far, far from the truth. Please educate yourself about your religion.

I am educated about my relgion, I do beilve Allah told my not to murder anyone and I shall listen to Allah alone and not do it. Allah has said on Judgment Day everybodys sins is their own, not even a parent and a child could share their sins. Its not up to Muslims to kill others for their sins, only Allah has this right to.

[Hulk]

The most dangerous words for a student of knowledge is "I know".

[Aprender]

The premise of your post isn't quite right. All of us sin but Islam does not teach us to stone for sinning. That would mean anytime you miss a prayer, say a bad word, look at someone with lust, incorrectly make wudu, backbite, break a traffic law, make unlawful money, deal with interest, you would be stoned to death. Islam does not teach this.

You're right. Islam does teach us not to murder anyone for no just reason. So I'm confused where you're getting this teaching that Islam tells us to stone people for their sins. If that were the case then there would be no Muslims left on the earth.

[ck1986]

I follow the Quran and no were in the Quran does it say about stoning people for their sins. Why have Judgment Day then. We could all punish and kill people right here on this Dunya.

[Aprender]

I follow the Quran and no were in the Quran does it say about stoning people for their sins.

Ohh. So you reject the hadith?

[ck1986]

In some country dont people get stoned to death for committing adultery. Dont people get their hand cuts off if they steal something.

[ck1986]

Ohh. So you reject the hadith?

I didnt say I reject the hadit, I do follow the way our Prophet lived for praying to fasting and many more

[Aprender]

In some country dont people get stoned to death for committing adultery. Dont people get their hand cuts off if they steal something.

Ohh OK. So you want to learn about the shariah laws for the punishments of people who commit adultery and are thieves. Well, it's not that straightforward. Not that black and white. First of all there have to be 4 witnesses who actually witnessed the adultery take place which is hard enough. And strange even to sit there and watch something like that as a believing Muslim. Then they have to testify in court. And beyond that there is a difference in punishment for one who is or has been married and one who is not married. I remember reading a hadith of a woman who admitted to this and the Prophet peace be upon him sent her away more than once hoping she would repent for the sin and live out her life with the intentions of not falling into again and doing better but she kept coming back. There are different judgements for these things and it's case specific. I've heard from scholars that if you are guilty of adultery or fornication then the best thing to do is to repent to Allah for it and never ever do it again. It's between you and your lord.

I actually like the way Shariah law works. You know, most of the laws that we have here in America are in compliance with Shariah law and I'll have you know that even here in America justice is not carried out in the least with most of the laws we have here. You could be drunk, get in a car and kill someone and only get 7 years in jail, whereas if you get caught with a bag of drugs in your pocket or hidden in your shoes you can go to jail for 25 years.

This is why I said that you need to learn more about your religion because this is one of those topics that people who hate Islam just love to take out of context to try and make Islam look bad.

I'm short on time now but in shaa Allah I can come back later or many other members can link you to some threads which explain this in greater detail. I'm no expert on Shariah Law but from what I've learned of it I like it better and I live here in the U.S.

[ck1986]

Ohh OK. So you want to learn about the shariah laws for the punishments of people who commit adultery and are thieves. Well, it's not that straightforward. Not that black and white. First of all there have to be 4 witnesses who actually witnessed the adultery take place which is hard enough. And strange even to sit there and watch something like that as a believing Muslim. Then they have to testify in court. And beyond that there is a difference in punishment for one who is or has been married and one who is not married. I remember reading a hadith of a woman who admitted to this and the Prophet peace be upon him sent her away more than once hoping she would repent for the sin and live out her life with the intentions of not falling into again and doing better but she kept coming back. There are different judgements for these things and it's case specific. I've heard from scholars that if you are guilty of adultery or fornication then the best thing to do is to repent to Allah for it and never ever do it again. It's between you and your lord.

I actually like the way Shariah law works. You know, most of the laws that we have here in America are in compliance with Shariah law and I'll have you know that even here in America justice is not carried out in the least with most of the laws we have here. You could be drunk, get in a car and kill someone and only get 7 years in jail, whereas if you get caught with a bag of drugs in your pocket or hidden in your shoes you can go to jail for 25 years.

This is why I said that you need to learn more about your religion because this is one of those topics that people who hate Islam just love to take out of context to try and make Islam look bad.

I'm short on time now but in shaa Allah I can come back later or many other members can link you to some threads which explain this in greater detail. I'm no expert on Shariah Law but from what I've learned of it I like it better and I live here in the U.S.

I guess what I am tryin to say is that WHY does this law exist, I mean Allah alone can punish us for our sins and action. People who follow the law take the role of ALLAH.

[M.I.A.]

its funny you should mention america.

its not every week you see a youtube video of an irate cop taking the law into his own hands...

oh wait.



if anything, it highlights what the law is.

and how it is actually used..

are two different things.


its like having a very big man with a stick..

you know what he wants to do.


or maybe he knows what he should be doing...



the law is there to protect you in both cases.




allah swt does protect and from him is harm also.

it is your test and the test of the big man with the stick.


...neither are allah swt.



but by our own deeds are our undoings.


maybe we should pray more? ...or become religious or something.

[Aprender]

I guess what I am tryin to say is that WHY does this law exist

Why do you think any laws exist at all? Secular laws. What is your opinion about why they are in place?

[ck1986]

Why do you think any laws exist at all? Secular laws. What is your opinion about why they are in place?

ALLAH told us not to murder or you will get punished, this is plain murder, whether it has a reason, or not.

What bothers me is the Sharia Law is a law that Muslim are playing the role of Allah

[Aprender]

ALLAH told us not to murder or you will get punished, this is plain murder, whether it has a reason, or not.

What bothers me is the Sharia Law is a law that Muslim are playing the role of Allah

Please answer the question. Why do you think there are secular laws in place for people?

[جوري]

You need to produce four witnesses to be stoned and I find it a fair punishment for adultery.
The moral is don't screw around before four witnesses cheat and cheat on your husband or wife. The law is made so that it is virtually impossible to prove unless with a confession, since those who bear false witnesses are the subject of stoning themselves.
As for what we think of sharia law, that is an open ended question. You'd need some schooling in the matter the same way folks attend medical or secular law school or accounting etc.
So we know very little none of us are scholars here and you know even less!

best,

[ck1986]

Why do you think any laws exist at all? Secular laws. What is your opinion about why they are in place?

There are plenty of Laws the exits, but none of them kill people for their sins.

A sin is between the person who committed a sin and GOD. IT is up to the person to forgiveness and it is up to GOD whether to forgive that person or punish them.

[ck1986]

You need to produce four witnesses to be stoned and I find it a fair punishment for adultery.
The moral is don't screw around before four witnesses cheat and cheat on your husband or wife. The law is made so that it is virtually impossible to prove unless with a confession, since those who bear false witnesses are the subject of stoning themselves.
As for what we think of sharia law, that is an open ended question. You'd need some schooling in the matter the same way folks attend medical or secular law school or accounting etc.
So we know very little none of us are scholars here and you know even less!

best,

Its not up to you to end someones life, its not up to you to punish someone for their sins. ALLAH states in the Quran that HE ALONE only can do this.

I have a hard time believing why most Muslim have a hard time believing this

[جوري]

none of them kill people for their sins.

It is a sin to murder and people get the death penalty for that all the time even in the civilized west!

Its not up to you to end someones life

Indeed it is a judicial matter!

ALLAH states in the Quran that HE ALONE only can do this.

I have a hard time believing why most Muslim have a hard time believing this

Allah swt also gave us the laws with which to govern on this earth, haven't you heard?

best,

[Aprender]

There are plenty of Laws the exits, but none of them kill people for their sins.

This is not true. If you kill someone in the United States the punishment for it is often times DEATH. Now it's just lethal injection. Either way, you murder, you mostly likely die and the relatives of your victims get to sit and watch you take your last breath.

A sin is between the person who committed a sin and GOD. IT is up to the person to forgiveness and it is up to GOD whether to forgive that person or punish them.

Unless you confess to committing adultery or do it in front of four people which is just plain strange and gross, then the same applies in Islam. It's really hard to prove in Islam. Either way, the punishment for it is something that should be a reminder to you not to do something so detestable.

In the U.S. it's now more acceptable and expected for a wife/husband to cheat. Even some husbands/wives contract HIV/AIDS and give it to their spouse. Now the spouse can most likely die because one was not faithful to the other and a child can grow up without a parent all because one was careless and following their desires instead of fearing Allah. It destroys family life. Ruins childhoods. Now in the U.S. it is common for a child to grow up with one parent because of cheating and there aren't any laws here on the books for that. Some marriages get prenuptial agreements but it still happens. Usually they end up just not getting money or something but the family lives are still destroyed because they have no shame in doing this and expect it as the "norm". Even some married couples here are SWINGERS. When two married couples switch partners and are intimate with one another. Astaghfirullah.

Look outside of it all. Islam is a protection from this. This is why Allah tells in the Quran to lower our gaze, be modest, guard our chastity and also:

"And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way." [17:32]

[ck1986]

It is a sin to murder and people get the death penalty for that all the time even in the civilized west!




Indeed it is a judicial matter!



Allah swt also gave us the laws with which to govern on this earth, haven't you heard?

No one in the Quran does it talks about the LAWS

best,

I am against the death penalty as well, but the death penalty does not include adultery or theft. Indeed punishment is required for most people who due bad. Bad killing Gods Creation is going agianst Gods Creation.

[جوري]

I am against the death penalty as well, but the death penalty does not include adultery or theft. Indeed punishment is required for most people who due bad. Bad killing Gods Creation is going agianst Gods Creation.

No one really cares for your personal convictions. Even in the civilized west they drone people (without a trial all together) simply for not liking what they have to say.
You've no case, it is a protest of one so go make a sign and stand in times square maybe someone will drop you a penny!

best,

[Aprender]

Its not up to you to end someones life,

We are not pacifists. When Muslims are attacked first then you believe it's OK to just sit back and not fight while Muslim women and children are murdered? Surely we should never transgress bounds and kill someone for absolutely no reason but you act like people being stoned to death for adultery is something that happens to the point where the Muslim population is in decline because we're all being stoned to death for the sin of adultery.

I really think you've been influenced too much by the haters of our religion in regards to this when even in the Bible it states to kill the one who converts from Christianity even if they're your immediate family member.

I see nothing wrong with it because 1. It's extremely hard to even prove this. 2. It's more encouraged to be silent about it, repent to Allah and never do it again.

Killing someone for it is really the final straw and even then you'd pretty much have to confess to it in order for it to happen. People get killed here in the U.S. for crimes they didn't commit with faulty evidence even when they've maintained their innocence throughout the trial.

[ck1986]

WHAT I am trying to say is ALLAH has sent us down the Quran he has told us what is good and what is bad. He has told us what will happen to us if we do the bad. We would be punish in the after life.

[جوري]

Punishment is here and there, if you repent you can be forgiven if sincere but even the punishment itself is an expiation of sin..
Quit your nonsense and your pretense!

[Hulk]

I admire you guys' patience really.

[Aprender]

but the death penalty does not include adultery or theft.

Really? Share sensitive secrets about federal procedures and see if you wake up in the morning. Leak secrets about federal operations and see if you wake up in the morning. Become a material witness in a major case that will take down someone in a position of power and just hope the authorities can protect you. And if you were to steal something major you could find yourself having the death penalty too. For example, if you were to steal the blueprints of a weapon and sell them to a violent organization and it was later used to kill innocent people, you would be charged with murder because your theft played a role in that. Felony law states that co-defendants can be equally responsible for a murder no matter who pulled the trigger or killed the person. If you were there and did something that led to a murder with the one who actually committed the act, you're just as guilty.

I am against the death penalty as well

Then you do not agree with what Allah says in the Quran.
"And those who do not invoke with Allah another deity or kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed], except by right, and do not commit unlawful sexual intercourse. And whoever should do that will meet a penalty." [25:68]

At the end of the day our religion teaches us to repent for it but as the sister said above the punishment is expiation of the sin. Don't forniacate or committ adultery. Don't kill anyone for no reason or put yourself in a position where this punishment would apply to you and if you have then sincerely repent for it and work on being a better person.

[whale95]

My views about the Shariaa is that it is the best laws Allah has blessed us with and the humankind have witnessed.
It has covered every single aspect of our life PERFECTLY with nothing missing in it.
It has given everybody their complete right according to their situations.
No one is discriminated or left off (because of colour/race/ or anything)
It has given to the Non-Muslims their rights as well...

Shariaa is the Complete Justice and no other law is like that..

ck1986 ... I understand that if a person commit adultery then they should be stoned... This is mercy for the whole community as they will see them being stoned so people will take it seriously... whereas, if it was only jail for 2 weeks or a weak punishment then people will get into this major sin of adultery... So to be more specific it is mercy for the baby (if a baby came) then that baby will be a victim and might be thrown in the streets or dont know his/her real parents... This is mercy for the family reputation as the father and mother of the person who commited adultery will be ashamed and embarrassed of such thing... Moreover for those who committed adultery especially if it was a woman then she will find difficulties in getting married... And mercy for their future Wives/Husbands... so the bottom line is that this law is the best for such sin as the Allah The Merciful knows what is best for humans and knows how their minds work as He created us... As you can see the mercy of all is endless....

I think it is better for someone who performed adultery to be stoned as it is (Kaffara) ... it is like he has took his punishment in the dunya(this life) rather than in the Judgement Day...

So do you think that if someone is stoned due to this act, is there going to be anyone willing to perform adultery? This is the mercy...

Moreover, do you think if someone stole something VALUABLE and his hands were cut off, do you think that someone is going to steal after that? Btw it depends on different situations...


May Allah Bless us all to the truth and guide us to the straight path insh Allah

[ck1986]

My views about the Shariaa is that it is the best laws Allah has blessed us with and the humankind have witnessed.
It has covered every single aspect of our life PERFECTLY with nothing missing in it.
It has given everybody their complete right according to their situations.
No one is discriminated or left off (because of colour/race/ or anything)
It has given to the Non-Muslims their rights as well...

Shariaa is the Complete Justice and no other law is like that..

ck1986 ... I understand that if a person commit adultery then they should be stoned... This is mercy for the whole community as they will see them being stoned so people will take it seriously... whereas, if it was only jail for 2 weeks or a weak punishment then people will get into this major sin of adultery... So to be more specific it is mercy for the baby (if a baby came) then that baby will be a victim and might be thrown in the streets or dont know his/her real parents... This is mercy for the family reputation as the father and mother of the person who commited adultery will be ashamed and embarrassed of such thing... Moreover for those who committed adultery especially if it was a woman then she will find difficulties in getting married... And mercy for their future Wives/Husbands... so the bottom line is that this law is the best for such sin as the Allah The Merciful knows what is best for humans and knows how their minds work as He created us... As you can see the mercy of all is endless....

I think it is better for someone who performed adultery to be stoned as it is (Kaffara) ... it is like he has took his punishment in the dunya(this life) rather than in the Judgement Day...

So do you think that if someone is stoned due to this act, is there going to be anyone willing to perform adultery? This is the mercy...

Moreover, do you think if someone stole something VALUABLE and his hands were cut off, do you think that someone is going to steal after that? Btw it depends on different situations...


May Allah Bless us all to the truth and guide us to the straight path insh Allah

Can you explain on why dont all Muslim countrys have these laws

[Aprender]

Can you explain on why dont all Muslim countrys have these laws

No country in the world today fully implements Shariah Law.

[whale95]

ck1986..... Well, I guess yu should ask them.....
This will lead into diving into the depth of politics which I dont like to talk about...

However...

u can see Gaza now... Why dont all the Muslim countries help them?
Muslims were killed and skinned in Burma by Buddhists... Why didnt the Muslim countries help them?
Syria where their own leader is killing the people brutally :S...
Muslims in most parts of the world are facing difficulties... including France about the veil problem and many other things...

You might ask why dont these Muslims help their brothers? Its just too complicated politics which is endlesss.. so dont waste your time trying to understand it without having a fairly strong islamic history about the past...
Why I said Islamic because it is one of the Histories which are not altered.... As we know that histories are written by the powerful individuals (Leaders)....

There are many things which SHOULD happen but the REALITY is that it doesnt exist.. :(

So the bottom line dont take the Muslim countries (of these days) as a "MODEL" but take the prophet (pbuh) and his Sahabas as models.... Study more about them especially Umar ibn el Khattab and see how the Muslims rose significantly higher than the skies.... And in only 10 years of Umar's Khelafa (Egypt, Syria, some countries under russian communism at the past, Iraq and other parts...) these countries belonged to the Muslims... And the people of these lands loved the Muslims so much that when the roman took part of one of the lands (I dont remember really which) the people of this land were sad and wanted the Muslims...

I like discussions as it will help us understand our weak points and we could help each other... :D

[cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn]

Can you explain on why dont all Muslim countrys have these laws

Because the Khalifa fell, that's why. A better question would be why did the Khalifa fall and how? How has this affected muslims and muslim countries?

- cOsMiC

[White Rose]

When someone becomes a khalifa, it is his responsibility to ensure that people are on the right path. Because he will be accountable on the day of judgement, he has to set an example. Some people just dont follow a given set of rules unless they know that there is a punishment for doing something wrong. The pious person obviously avoids the bad things but generally, there are good and bad people in a society and the punishments for breaking laws are mostly for the bad people(in Islam) .

Nowadays, its the reverse. People who have resources get away by breaking laws while those who lead a simple life are caught in their mess. The so called Islamic countries dont have proper sharia and the ones who dont know anything about sharia think that whats being followed today is the sharia which looks barbaric to them.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

what a very very broad question.


I think it is needed to fix the world - but it should be implemented in a muslim country - not forced upon a secular state.

['Abd-al Latif]

I am educated about my relgion, I do beilve Allah told my not to murder anyone and I shall listen to Allah alone and not do it. Allah has said on Judgment Day everybodys sins is their own, not even a parent and a child could share their sins. Its not up to Muslims to kill others for their sins, only Allah has this right to.

If you were educated about your religion then you'd know not to show such arrogance.

The verse you are referring to is this:

The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law). (Quran 24:2).

This does not include every sin on the face of the earth but a great and major sin, only for the adulterer who is found guilty of this crime.

There are degrees of sins and some are more severe than others. The greater sins result in a greater degree of punishment while other lesser sins only need sincere repentance.

The different degrees of punishment are even evident in man made laws where crimes like treason are punishable by death. If you are truly educated about your religion then you'd know that Allah is the one Who created the heavens and the earth, the one who causes water to drop from the sky whereby gardens grow full of beauty and delight. He is the One who created all that exists so to Allah alone belongs the authority to decree such a punishment.

Or does man know better while not even having the ability to create a fly?

The purpose of these punishments is to keep you away from such things. Worship Allah by doing what He has asked you and stay clear from all sins.

[Mustafa2012]

There are a no. of crimes in certain parts of America that are punishable by death penalty/lethal injection etc.

Why don't people call American law barbaric?

[Ramadan90]

I do believe the sharia laws exist to PROTECT us from harm and I love it. Allah knows what is best for us.

[IslamicRevival]

I am educated about my relgion

Ive never met an educated person who doesnt know how to spell 'Religion'.
Peace out :peace:

[Independent]

There are a no. of crimes in certain parts of America that are punishable by death penalty/lethal injection etc.

Why don't people call American law barbaric?

I do call that law barbaric. The death penalty is wrong wherever, and however, it is delivered.

Death by stoning adds slow torture to the process, as well as requiring many people to partake in the act, so it's even more wrong.

[جوري]

^^ the world doesn't function by your definition of 'barbarism' or your personal moral compass!

best,

[Independent]

^^ the world doesn't function by your definition of 'barbarism' or your personal moral compass!

These threads work best if you read the question as well as the reply.

[M.I.A.]

(This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law)

can you quote the numbers for that bracket.

if not where did you get it from?



i dont know why im bothering.

[White Rose]

I do call that law barbaric. The death penalty is wrong wherever, and however, it is delivered.

Death by stoning adds slow torture to the process, as well as requiring many people to partake in the act, so it's even more wrong.

If you can make a planet and create living things on it by yourself, then I think your opinion can count

[Independent]

If you can make a planet and create living things on it by yourself, then I think your opinion can count

You see, when you wrote in another thread that people had every right to express their opinion here...

'If we're guilty of voicing our opinion on a forum, then you're all guilty of the exact same!'

...then I naively assumed that you meant everyone, not just yourself.

[Hulk]

Isn't it interesting how we feel qualified to discuss something we've never actually studied.

[White Rose]

You see, when you wrote in another thread that people had every right to express their opinion here...

'If we're guilty of voicing our opinion on a forum, then you're all guilty of the exact same!'

...then I naively assumed that you meant everyone, not just yourself.

I didnt say that so I dont know how that applies to me...

Isn't it interesting how we feel qualified to discuss something we've never actually studied.

Yes it is interesting. Part of the reason why we find flaws in our religion is because we dont have the background information and the enemies use that in their favor to throw us off.

[Independent]

I didnt say that so I dont know how that applies to me...

Quite true, my mistake - I thought you were the previous poster.

[truthseeker63]

I was told and taught that in Islam Muslims who are Stoned to Death for Adultery are not punished after death therefor they go to Paradise is this true what about Homosexuality if they Repent before they are Stoned can they go to Paradise or what about a Muslim who commits Zina 4 Times ?

[Mustafa2012]

I do call that law barbaric. The death penalty is wrong wherever, and however, it is delivered.

Death by stoning adds slow torture to the process, as well as requiring many people to partake in the act, so it's even more wrong.

You are entitled to your opinion.

For some strange reason a group of people (American or otherwise) who studied law and the effects that certain crimes have on society, determined that some people who violate the rights of other human beings don't deserve the privilege of living.

['Abd-al Latif]

I do call that law barbaric. The death penalty is wrong wherever, and however, it is delivered.

Death by stoning adds slow torture to the process, as well as requiring many people to partake in the act, so it's even more wrong.

There is no subjectiveness in Islam, which is why personal opinions that contest God's decree hold no weight.

Having said that, it cannot be said that God is bloodthirsty because our worship does not benefit Him nor does our neglect harm Him. All what we do is of benefit to us. Allah says in the Qur'an that He "Wishes for you easy." This goes to show that even a harsh and severe punishment like stoning an adulterer to death is something that will ultimately bring the Muslim adulterer the ease that he or she is promised – even if it's not achieved from the actual act of the prescribed punishment. This ease is achieved when the person dies and reaches Allah without a single sin remaining on his or her account. This is because the severity of being punished by stoning was enough not to put him or her through any more trials and punishments in the afterlife.

When people who date or have girlfriends/boyfriends find out that their partner is cheating on them, the news is always received with anger and great hostility. How often do we see fights in bars and clubs because another man looked at his woman? Then what if there is adultery or fornication involved? The hurt and pain caused to the spouse who was cheated on and the harm that is caused to society with the act of adultery is the reason why this punishment was prescribed.

When people abstain from fornication and adultery, from drinking alcohol and gambling then this cultivates virtue, integrity and strong ethical values. When these characteristics are developed among every single individual then it creates the ideal society that serves as the foundation of goodness.

Can the American values ever promise such a thing? I beg to differ.

[جوري]

These threads work best if you read the question as well as the reply.

Indeed but still doesn't change the fact of the matter.. and per my other thread you're most welcome to voice your opinion and ignore what you desire to ignore, we're not voicing an immanent belief of the mind we're discussing God's law! You can opine all you want, it has no weightiness just thought you'd know before you go defending criminals and calling justice 'barbaric' just where you stand!

best,

[UmmuShaheed]

I guess what I am tryin to say is that WHY does this law exist,.

Asaalamu Alaikum,
Brother a part of being Muslim is NOT questioning Allah's laws, but trying to LEARN more if your unsure of something.
Also, learning the etiquette of a student of knowledge.

[Independent]

I wonder if anyone can estimate for me - what percentage of modern day Muslims agree with this law (stoning for adultery)? In how many countries is this part of the present legal system?

[Hulk]

Before anyone can agree or disagree with anything they would first have to understand it. So it's kind of silly to pose the question in that context as if everyone is knowledgable with sharia. I mean even you don't even know it so you it's kind of the one who doesn't know asking the one who doesn't know. Mind you not both are ignorant, the ignorant one is the one who doesn't know but thinks he knows.

[جوري]

What I'd really like to know is the percentage of kaffirs advocating for vice, criminality and stirring up sympathy for murderers and/or adulterers who are at the same time exhibitionists.
No reading or reasoning is exercised whatsoever, just parroting the same drivel over and over. We've already stated that short of an absolute confession the law is set up so it is nearly impossible to prove you're an adulterer unless of course you are lewd and go advertising at the same time. At that stage you deserve all that's coming to you.

[aamirsaab]

Here's a thought:

Killing a soldier (someone who just happens to be on the 'other' side) in a war is fine.
Killing a murderer (someone from you own who country caused injustice in your own country) is barbaric?


Here's another:

The harsh (or ''barbaric'') punishments everybody is crying about are last resorts after the accused is found guilty in a court of law.


And one final thought (more of a fact really):

Those punishments can only be applied to Muslims...

[Independent]

Those punishments can only be applied to Muslims...

But surely, a country must have one system or another? If it's Sharia law, would it not be applied to all citizens, whatever their religion?

The harsh (or ''barbaric'') punishments everybody is crying about are last resorts after the accused is found guilty in a court of law.

Yes - but inevitably, innocent people will be convicted by mistake and they will be executed too.

[aamirsaab]

But surely, a country must have one system or another? If it's Sharia law, would it not be applied to all citizens, whatever their religion?

The crime would still be crime regardless of religious affiliation. The punishment however is different.

Yes - but inevitably, innocent people will be convicted by mistake and they will be executed too.

I agree wholeheartedly, and is exactly why in Islam there has to be an extrmely high level of proof of the criminal activity in addition to several get-out clauses, which include:the victims being able to essentially pardon the criminal or the judge themselves can choose administer a less harsh punishment (such as a fine or imprisonment etc) or simply not administer a punishment at all - it depends on the case and what is deemed to be just.

In Islamic courts, the judge has a lot of power - equal to that of his responsibility. Since the whole purpose of a legal system is to ensure justice, in the society, this power and responsbility should not be overlooked.

[Independent]

I agree wholeheartedly, and is exactly why in Islam there has to be an extrmely high level of proof of the criminal activity in addition to several get-out clauses, which include:the victims being able to essentially pardon the criminal or the judge themselves can choose administer a less harsh punishment (such as a fine or imprisonment etc) or simply not administer a punishment at all - it depends on the case and what is deemed to be just.

Interesting. So, as in the current example, can the judge choose not to punish the guilty party by stoning?

['Abd-al Latif]

I wonder if anyone can estimate for me - what percentage of modern day Muslims agree with this law (stoning for adultery)? In how many countries is this part of the present legal system?

You're still failing to see Islam for what it is. Islam is not democracy. It never was and it never will be. The One who created us is the one who decides our laws. When Islam says something we reply with, "We hear, and we obey." (Quran 28:285)

Instead of focusing on the branches, focus on who Muslims worship. We can go around in circles all day long about my laws and your laws but neither of these laws will be followed until we know where they came from. Therefore, when you come to learn that the Islamic laws come from the One and Only Almighty, then is there any dispute left?

[Independent]

You're still failing to see Islam for what it is. Islam is not democracy. It never was and it never will be.

No, I totally get that. But even other Muslims seem to hold different views about this, so what chance have I got?

[aamirsaab]

Interesting. So, as in the current example, can the judge choose not to punish the guilty party by stoning?

In theory yes. Practically of course, it all depends on whether or not administering the punishment would lead to social justice (i.e. prevention of similar crimes or deterance) or social injustice, (i.e. public outcry) which would clearly be worse for society as a whole because now the justice system would become unjust.

It's a balancing act and sometimes the law will have to fall one way or the other. That responsibility alone is why the Judge in an Islamic court has so great a power (along with the stuff I stated previous post, he can even overrule a prior decision)

Is the system flawless? No - it's always going to be possible that the wrong person is convicted, we're human afterall ;). What matters most is this system helps keep that number as low as possible whilst still creating justice amongst society.

[Scimitar]

@ck1986

Are you a Quranite? meaning, do you reject hadeeths? and only follow the Quran?

Scimi

[Ummshareef]

I wonder if anyone can estimate for me - what percentage of modern day Muslims agree with this law (stoning for adultery)? In how many countries is this part of the present legal system?

It is incumbent on all Muslims to accept and submit to the laws set out by Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa in their entirety. We cannot pick and chose which ones we like and which we are not so keen on - if we did so we would be leaving the fold of Islam by questioning Allah's commands. The Shariah has been provided by Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa to ensure a safe and peaceful society, for which we are immensely grateful and thank Him every day. His wisdom is beyond our comprehension, so we accept His laws in full without question. In the case of adultery, Allah has been very clear that it is illegal and has prescribed a specific punishment that must be carried out provided that strict evidential standards have been met - it cannot be reduced or changed by a judge. Like many Islamic punishments it is always administered in public so that people can see justice done. Although such a punishment may seem harsh, there is no doubt that all Muslims welcome the protection it provides to society as a whole through its deterrent effect, which is so strong that it has only rarely been carried out in 1400+ years. Be under no illusion that in the eyes of Muslims, the suffering caused by adulterers to their families and to society as a whole more than justifies the punishment, remembering that in Islam much greater emphasis is placed on supporting the victims of wrongdoing than the perpetrators.

I am not sure of the answer to your second question, but it is well known that there are very few if any countries that apply Shariah in full at this time.

[Independent]

Thank you for your replies. I am confused between this:

In the case of adultery, Allah has been very clear that it is illegal and has prescribed a specific punishment that must be carried out provided that strict evidential standards have been met - it cannot be reduced or changed by a judge.

...and this, in answer to my question could the judge administer a different punishment in the case of adultery:

In theory yes. Practically of course, it all depends on whether or not administering the punishment would lead to social justice (i.e. prevention of similar crimes or deterance) or social injustice, (i.e. public outcry) which would clearly be worse for society as a whole because now the justice system would become unjust.

[Ummshareef]

The judge (qadi) could only change the punishment if the full evidential standards for applying the hadd (divine prescribed punishment) were not met, e.g. if only one instead of the required four reliable witnesses was provided, in which case he could award a lesser, discretionary (ta'zir) punishment of his choice.

[Independent]

The judge (qadi) could only change the punishment if the full evidential standards for applying the hadd (divine prescribed punishment) were not met, e.g. if only one instead of the required four reliable witnesses was provided, in which case he could award a lesser, discretionary (ta'zir) punishment of his choice.

In which case, the judge's discretion is quite limited.

Does this mean, if someone were found guilty of adultery based on other types of evidence (eg DNA, a video, a confession), would they receive a different punishment from someone found guilty in the Qu'ranic way (4 witnesses etc)? Does the stoning (the punishment) depend on the evidence used to convict?

[aamirsaab]

...
...and this, in answer to my question could the judge administer a different punishment in the case of adultery:

I should clarify: that outcome is going to be extremely rare, especially in adultery cases because of the requirement of 4 witness testimony. The scenario I was talking about was a hypothetical (as in worst possible case scenario, only then would the social justice vs social injustice be potentially applicable). So please accept my full apologies for the confusion.

Ummshareef is correct.

[Logikon]

Therefore, when you come to learn that the Islamic laws come from the One and Only Almighty, then is there any dispute left?

Muslims use this as a way to convince (for example) Jews and Christians, those that believe in god, that the Islamic laws must be right.

Muslims problem is that the number of Athiests is growing and growing. You will need some other argument to convince us.

.

[Hulk]

That's some really faulty logic right there.

[جوري]

Muslims use this as a way to convince (for example) Jews and Christians, those that believe in god, that the Islamic laws must be right.

Muslims problem is that the number of Athiests is growing and growing. You will need some other argument to convince us.

.

This is coming from the guy who thinks London is in France?.. :haha: How about you work on your fifth grade geography lessons and French 101? I think anything else will be fully over your head!

best,

[Ummshareef]

In which case, the judge's discretion is quite limited.

Does this mean, if someone were found guilty of adultery based on other types of evidence (eg DNA, a video, a confession), would they receive a different punishment from someone found guilty in the Qu'ranic way (4 witnesses etc)? Does the stoning (the punishment) depend on the evidence used to convict?

Yes, the judges discretion is very limited. Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa has provided His guidance alHumdulillah, which we as Muslims accept and embrace as with all matters. A confession or four adult male Muslim witnesses to the act of intercourse are the only two acceptable types of evidence for the prescribed punishment to be applied. If other types of evidence were presented, such as DNA or a video, it would be up to the judge's discretion as to what punishment to apply.

[Logikon]

-We can go around in circles all day long

-about my laws and your laws

-but neither of these laws will be followed until we know where they came from.

-Therefore, when you come to learn that the Islamic laws come from the One and Only Almighty, then is there any dispute left?

I thought I understood what this means. The folks above have said I don't understand what it means.

Could you please clarify what it means.

['Abd-al Latif]

I thought I understood what this means. The folks above have said I don't understand what it means.

Could you please clarify what it means.

Seeing as you've made the last quote up and attributed it to me, I have no idea what it is that you seek clarification in.

[Independent]

Before anyone tells me - I understand that for Muslims, if it’s in the Qu’ran that’s the end of the story and it cannot be questioned. Please read the following comments with the understanding that they are from the point of view of a non-Muslim westerner. (Or don’t read it, if you don’t care about what non believers think). It is said that westerners don’t understand Sharia Law and react unfairly against it – well, I am trying to understand it but this thread has raised many questions for me.

I have seen people say Sharia Law is not so different from US law. It has also been suggested in many western countries that Sharia Law could exist alongside western law.

When I look at all the answers in this thread, it seems to me that in fact they are fundamentally different and it would be very difficult to have them co-exist.

Firstly, as Ummshareef makes clear, it is possible in Sharia to have a different punishment for the same offense. This depends on the nature of the evidence, not the degree of the crime. This is a fundamental difference with western law and (if it were not in the Qu’ran) would be logically and morally indefensible.

Secondly, in Sharia the judge has huge power over the examination and verdict, but not much over the sentence. This seems to me to be the wrong way round. For a single man (and it is always a man) to have sole responsibility for assessing the evidence is dangerous. No one man can be free of individual prejudices and weaknesses. He may also struggle to understand some of the recent aspects of evidence (eg forensics). At the same time, one murder is not the same as another murder. There are degrees of severity (eg a crime of passion). To have no flexibility in the punishment is not human justice (even if it may be divine justice).

Thirdly (and this is a question not a statement), is there a right of appeal in Sharia? I assume not, because that would seem to undermine the crucial sense of certainty, that it is Allah’s law being handed down, not man’s. But perhaps there is a mechanism for appeal?

Fourthly, i don't see how joint law could work where some of the parties were Muslims, and some not. If a Muslim killed a non Muslim, what law do you judge him by? If you use Sharia, then the victim's non Muslim relatives would be given the option of giving him executed, or blood money etc. As a non Muslim, I don't want this option because I don't believe in capital punishment, and I certainly don't want to be directly responsible for firing the bullet. The alternative, the idea of accepting blood money for a life, to me is insulting and degrading in the first degree. So I would have to just let him go without punishment - but I don't want that either. I would be denied justice.

Fifthly, there is the nature of some of the punishments. Most of the negative publicity about Sharia has concentrated on this (because journalists like sensationalism). If we take the specific example of adultery, where the punishment is stoning, to a western person this feeds into a notion that Sharia Law is indeed medieval and barbaric, despite what some commentators claim. If I remember rightly that was the punishment administered to a number of women in Afghanistan during Taliban rule, when the main football stadium was converted into a kind of execution theme park and they half buried them in the middle of the pitch. This public perversion of a place of sport and recreation was bound to have a lasting impact on views. Football was banned, but stoning gets on tv.

Sixthly, when you look at the detail of some of these laws, it gets very confusing. For adultery, I learn that four male, Islamic witnesses are required to bear witness. This obviously strikes many people, both believers and non believers, as an extraordinary and unlikely requirement. The conditions of evidence seem random, arbitrary. It’s like saying, murder is a crime, but only if it happens on a Friday.

Non believers can simply react to this by saying this law is medieval or incomplete. For believers, this isn’t an option because the Qu’ran must be perfect. Therefore many believers have taken a different approach. They chose to interpret this passage as giving requirements which are deliberately impossible. In other words, this punishment is there in the Qu’ran, but only in a way that makes it very unlikely ever to be used. This is a very odd way indeed to make laws.

It seems to me that this is an interpretation of the passage in the Qu’ran, not what the Qu’ran itself definitively says.

It’s difficult to think of another reason why the Qu’ran has in fact laid down such an odd requirement as the 4 witnesses. Perhaps we could understand the word ‘witness’ in a broader sense (ie someone who bears witness, who gives evidence) rather than being strictly present at the scene of the crime. (But I am no scholar of Arabic.) Or perhaps in seventh century world, privacy was much harder (houses close together, tents etc) so witnesses might often be close by without it the act being a deliberate exhibitionism on their part. Who knows? Of course I’m just interpreting – but surely, when people say that this passage describes conditions that are deliberately impossible, they are also just speculating? They are ascribing a motive to this passage which may or may not have been present. The difficulty comes when you try to construct an entire legal system, covering all circumstances and all crimes, only from passages directly quoted in the Qu'ran, or possibly hadiths as well.

On a separate note, I would agree that western law has many flaws too (for instance I don’t like the US plea bargain system, or jury challenge). But these have the advantage of being capable of improvement, whereas Sharia Law cannot be changed even if it seems to be outdated.

I also think Sharia Law does have some advantages over western law especially in certain environments – I don’t think it’s all bad by any means. However, I understand that I have to buy into the whole of Sharia or nothing, I can't pick and choose. So that’s why I ask the questions above.

[IslamiMessage]

I found a good link that explains the significance of the Shariah Law, but as of right now I cannot post any links; and the reason is probably because I'm fairly knew to this forum. Once I get the permission, I will post the link here.

[IslamiMessage]

I found a good link that explains the significance of the Shariah Law, but as of right now I cannot post any links; and the reason is probably because I'm fairly knew to this forum. Once I get the permission, I will post the link here.

Sorry for the typo: "knew". It should have been "new" I was typing quick and didn't check.

[aamirsaab]

@ independant

Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to go through each and every one of your points and the ensuing discussion (I'm lazy I know :p). With the greatest respects, I would recommend you purchase this book on the topic of Sharia law. It gives a thorough overview of each and every single one of your queries (and more) and also offers some background info too, which I believe will be interested in.

You can find it here: http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b2440.html (If you can find it cheaper elsewhere, by all means do so, but this book I can certify is well worth your purchase - Muslim or not)

[Independent]

With the greatest respects, I would recommend you purchase this book on the topic of Sharia law.

Thank you for the reference. Although if I put that on my Christmas list, my family are going to wonder what's going on...

[Ummshareef]

Before anyone tells me - I understand that for Muslims, if it’s in the Qu’ran that’s the end of the story and it cannot be questioned.

.......

So that’s why I ask the questions above.

Dear Independent,

It is a very good thing that you are so inquisitive about Islam. By coming on this forum and asking questions, you will insha'allah gain an insight into Islam and how it works and want to learn more. But I really do think that the best thing that you can do, as aamirsaab has suggested, is to acquire a text book on Shariah written by a scholar that will answer your questions and explain everything that you need to know. Don't worry what your family might think - seeking the Truth is more important.

The one point I would like to refute is that Shariah is medieval and barbaric - yes it is true that it has not changed for 1400 years, but that is because it is God's law, and as such it is perfect and does not need to be modernised or updated. It is impossible for man-made laws to improve upon the Shariah though many man-made laws are similar. It is as relevant today as it was all those years ago when it was first revealed and provides the perfect framework for us to live our lives alHumdulillah.

As a westerner, you may consider some of our punishments to be barbaric, and yes, some are undoubtedly severe in comparison to western law, but as Muslims we welcome the protection that they bring to our society, principally through their deterrent effect and also by removing rotten apples from society. We take the view that if we stay close to the obedience of Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa then we are giving ourselves the best chance of avoiding His punishment.

[Independent]

It is a very good thing that you are so inquisitive about Islam. By coming on this forum and asking questions, you will insha'allah gain an insight into Islam and how it works and want to learn more.

Thank you for your welcome and your replies. In fact I already have a number of books related to Islam on order (although it will take me awhile to read them). I never imagined before joining this forum that Islam involves such a profoundly different worldview from a Christian culture.

[Logikon]

Seeing as you've made the last quote up and attributed it to me, I have no idea what it is that you seek clarification in.

Sorry for the confusion!
The full quote is;

You're still failing to see Islam for what it is. Islam is not democracy. It never was and it never will be. The One who created us is the one who decides our laws. When Islam says something we reply with, "We hear, and we obey"

Instead of focusing on the branches, focus on who Muslims worship. We can go around in circles all day long about my laws and your laws but neither of these laws will be followed until we know where they came from. Therefore, when you come to learn that the Islamic laws come from the One and Only Almighty, then is there any dispute left? .

The part in red is the part I don’t get. And this can be split into phrases for the purpose of understanding

-We can go around in circles all day long

-about my laws and your laws

-but neither of these laws will be followed until we know where they came from.

-Therefore, when you come to learn that the Islamic laws come from the One and Only Almighty, then is there any dispute left? .

Again, sorry for the confusion.
What does this mean?

[Ummshareef]

I never imagined before joining this forum that Islam involves such a profoundly different worldview from a Christian culture.

There are vast similarities, but yes there are differences as well. But I think the big differences are between Islamic and western legal systems. One of the areas where there are huge differences is around gender interaction and sexual behaviour - Islam for example forbids free-mixing, fornication, adultery and homosexuality, whereas none of these are even a crime in western law and some are considered normal and even actively encouraged. I know which system I would rather live under.

[M.I.A.]

free-mixing

..so were all marriages arranged?


..thinks of adam AS... dont answer that!


..actually look how that tur... never mind.. (whole heap of trouble in jokes)



ok, so the point is that in a world without free mixing how can a person get to know a person for who they are?

there points of attraction?

there piousness and character traits.


if free mixing leads to fornication.. and adultery.. then surely it is a reflection of the people.

pious for the pious and unclean for the unclean,

iv read something similar not so long ago.. in another thread, quoting from the quran.



im not saying that there should be free mixing, just that when given the freedom the real test starts.

[CosmicPathos]

..so were all marriages arranged?


..thinks of adam AS... dont answer that!


..actually look how that tur... never mind.. (whole heap of trouble in jokes)



ok, so the point is that in a world without free mixing how can a person get to know a person for who they are?

there points of attraction?

there piousness and character traits.


if free mixing leads to fornication.. and adultery.. then surely it is a reflection of the people.

pious for the pious and unclean for the unclean,

iv read something similar not so long ago.. in another thread, quoting from the quran.



im not saying that there should be free mixing, just that when given the freedom the real test starts.

MIA, no offense, you seem to be drugged from your comments. Go visit a detox center. Theyll give naltrexone to come off those opioids.

[M.I.A.]

yeah i guess the joke is out of order.. very crass and uncalled for.

dont let that fool you though the rest requires a better rebuttal...

i cant even imagine what id be like if i could tolerate myself.


...the widespread use of antidepressants and intoxicants

...rather than recreation.


how better to treat the hopeless.. then condemning them.

[CosmicPathos]

yeah i guess the joke is out of order.. very crass and uncalled for.

dont let that fool you though the rest requires a better rebuttal...

i cant even imagine what id be like if i could tolerate myself.


...the widespread use of antidepressants and intoxicants

...rather than recreation.

My towering ego does not even consider idiots worthy of my rebuttal.

[M.I.A.]

what can i say,

the confines of ones mind and the internet are a bad combination.


the funny thing is that i cant string a sentence together in public, if i said black it would probably come out my mouth as white.


i doubt i had anything better to say anyway.


...iv learned a lot from the experience.

hate the action not the person.


funny thing is that before i even thought twice about what i did i was a lot happier.

still known to be shy and awkward but happy at least.


now im like an inert gas.. just passing through.

['Abd-al Latif]

:salamext:

And they all lived happily ever after!

:threadclo