Hola Amigos

[TJ-alcapone]

Hi folks,

I am TJ a college undergraduate wanting to learn more about religion. I myself don't believe in god for the primary reason that I find no evidence to suggest there is one. More importantly, I am more interested in understanding this almost universal psychological propensity that societies seem to have towards religion. That is why in almost every region of the world you can find religions (some of which are entirely different and/or contradictory to one another) which attempt at giving people hope, provide a moral guide, give an explanation for the world around us and maybe provide a sense of purpose.

I was raised in a Hindu family in my home country of India, so maybe some of my beliefs and moral outlooks might have been shaped by hindu philosophy, such as my love for animals perhaps. But from a religious perspective, I stopped considering myself a Hindu around the age of reason (around 15 years old), the time since which I started getting interested about science, religion, philosophy and cosmology from an academic point of view. I am not sure what label I'd like to assume atheist, agnostic, skeptic, humanist, naturalist or anything else. I usually try to stay away from labels, as with labels comes baggage. And people start to assume outlooks that are not true of you. So in brief, I don't believe in god or any other supernatural principle. I am not opposed to religion, but am keenly aware of the attitudes it might encourage. I believe that critical thought is the primary tool through which we can move forward as a society.

My view about religion is that although it might provide people a great deal of comfort, it has little empirical value to it. Moreover I am wary of its divisive nature. Religion, very much like nationalism, gives people a great sense of identity and belonging. But that comes at a cost. There is little that people can covet more than identity. And with that comes the willingness to want to protect it. As John Mayer once right said, "Belief is a beautiful armor that makes for the heaviest sword."

So anyway, I think I understand Christians and Hindu's better than people of other religions. And I understand that Islam is a vastly varied religion because it changes from society to society. But nonetheless, since I know so little of it, forums are probably a good place to start. So again, hola. And I am looking forward to reading brain stimulating forum posts, or at least that is my hope.

[جوري]

the age of reason (around 15 years old

The age of reason is 40 not 15- :welcome: aboard
pls visit FAQ and useful index thread so we're no rehashing already covered topics.

best,

[TJ-alcapone]

Thank you for the headsup on the FAQ's. I am afraid I disagree with you on the age topic. As I child, almost every one of my actions was a result of my upbringing. I didn't lie, steal or do anything else that would be considered immoral, not because I actual spent time thinking about the consequences of such an act, but rather did it blindly because of parental and/or societal expectations. Only around the age of 15 did I start thinking about philosophy, crime, morality, etc. So my point remains. 15 was my age of reason, don't know about anybody else's. :statisfie But of course, the older I get the more knowledge I obtain, hopefully.

[جوري]

societies & rules aren't built on the exception whatever it is in your case it is a subjective judgement and one that doesn't deals with any meta needs or reason rather the basic foundations that aren't borne of wisdom but habit. I am not personally swayed by individual summaries of self appointed laurels!


best,

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[Insaanah]

Greetings and welcome to the forum.

So anyway, I think I understand Christians and Hindu's better than people of other religions.

I can see how that might be. They have some things in common between them. Both believe in a trinity of sorts. Both believe in incarnations of God, be that in human or animal bodies. Both believe that God or certain of their gods had children, died etc.

And I understand that Islam is a vastly varied religion because it changes from society to society.

Islam is the only faith where the scripture is unchanged with no versions, and you pick a Muslim from any corner of the globe to recite a passage by heart, they will all recite word for word the same thing. It is the religion with least variation in the way it is practised compared to to others. The religion itself does not, and has never changed.

Peace.

[TJ-alcapone]

I can see how that might be. They have some things in common between them. Both believe in a trinity of sorts. Both believe in incarnations of God, be that in human or animal bodies. Both believe that certain of their gods had children, certain of their gods died etc.

I suppose, but I think it is more a result of my life experiences. I was raised a hindu in India for 18 years of my life, and now find myself in the US a predominantly Christian country. So apart from a few Muslim friends (who I'd say are more secular rather than religious), my contact with people of the Islamic faith has been minimal.

Islam is the only faith where the scripture is unchanged with no versions, and you pick a Muslim from any corner of the globe to recite a passage by heart, they will all recite word for word the same thing. It is the religion with least variation in the way it is practised compared to to others. The religion itself does not, and has never changed.

You are true in pointing out the scriptures, but in real world terms I am afraid I would have to disagree. I have seen Muslims from Pakistan, Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. From what I have seen and heard of, the religious practices are vastly different between the people of these countries. I am planning to visit Iran and or Egypt myself soon. And my intuition tells me that I will find people of these countries vastly different from the Pakistan I know of well (as it is a neighbor to my country of India).

[جوري]

and heard of

Perhaps you care to share what you've heard so we can dispel it and teach you what is accurate. That's if you're looking to learn indeed and not come in with presuppositions!

best,

[TJ-alcapone]

Perhaps you care to share what you've heard so we can dispel it and teach you what is accurate. That's if you're looking to learn indeed and not come in with presuppositions!

Yes of course. In the due course of my postings on this forum I will sure bring them up. And again I disagree with this notion of implicit accuracy as religious texts are vastly dependent on interpretation. I am merely pointing out that through my few experiences, my opinion is that Islam is a broad religion. I have friends of Muslim faith back home in Hyderabad, India, and friends in college from Egypt and Iran as well. The religious and philosophical positions of these people vary vastly. And it is that to which I pointing out. And it is not fair for you to misconstrue them as presuppositions.

[جوري]

The religious and philosophical positions of these people vary vastly

Ibadaat and Aadat are two separate issues. Even if you have 50 friends that's not 1.86 billion Muslims.
Be that as it may. the Quran is one and unchanged and different schools of thoughts may have variations but all are accurate. Like having more than one choice to treat a headache. It doesn't change the etiology, the diagnosis nor even the management although the management itself may vary.

best,

[TJ-alcapone]

Ibadaat and Aadat are two separate issues. Even if you have 50 friends that's not 1.86 billion Muslims.
Be that as it may. the Quran is one and unchanged and different schools of thoughts may have variations but all are accurate. Like having more than one choice to treat a headache. It doesn't change the etiology, the diagnosis nor even the management although the management itself may vary.

I am not sure what those too words mean. I am not sure what your notion of accuracy is, but am afraid disagree with you. There are 3 major schools of Islam that I can list of the top of my head: Sunni, Shia and sufism. Now if one claims that the Burqa is necessary and islamically accurate and the other claims it is not, then it is a statistical improbability that both are accurate. Again on a practical level, the religious principles of Muslim people differ vastly from region to region. You are defining religion by the scripture, and I am defining it be its practice. Religion is abstract, and should not be judged by the book. But rather should be judged by the interpretations of people.

[TJ-alcapone]

*two words.

[جوري]

but am afraid disagree with you.

Yes you've been disagreeing since you made an entrance. At this stage I am going to ask you to bring forth the specifics so we're not swimming in generalizations and your reservations on some hidden things that are kept from the rest of us but we have to somehow take your word for it!
Also there aren't 'three schools' there's 90% ,majority sunni Muslims and 10% shiites of which all other factions exist since shia by its very definition means faction. We can't be made responsible for folks who want to split from tradition nor can we count them as Muslims. But make no mistake and do some scholarly research before writing that 90% of Muslims are on the same path!

Estimates of the world Sunni population varies from over 75% to 90% of all Muslims.^[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam
best,

[Muhammad]

Greetings TJ,

Welcome to the forum. I hope you will have a good stay here and learn much about Islam.

It would be best to make a new thread in the Clarifications about Islam section to discuss your questions further. I do have one question for you to consider.

I myself don't believe in god for the primary reason that I find no evidence to suggest there is one. More importantly, I am more interested in understanding this almost universal psychological propensity that societies seem to have towards religion.

If the concept of a higher being, or God, is an almost universal psychological propensity, does that not constitute some form of evidence for the existence of God?

[TJ-alcapone]

Also there aren't 'three schools' there's 90% ,majority sunni Muslims and 10% shiites of which all other factions exist since shia by its very definition means faction. We can't be made responsible for folks who want to split from tradition nor can we count them as Muslims. But make no mistake and do some scholarly research before writing that 90% of Muslims are on the same path!

So people who think differently than you are defectors and not 'real' muslims'? Reeks of fundamentalism to me. I was hoping for a balanced debate. But this my way or the high way kind of attitude doesn't speak well at all. This is the kind of attitude behind sunni-shia wars.

If the concept of a higher being, or God, is an almost universal psychological propensity, does that not constitute some form of evidence for the existence of God?

No, the propensity towards being religious is entirely different from proper evidence of truth in a particular religion. Especially when that propensity towards being religious leads to religions like entirely different from one another. Lets take Confucianism, Hinduism and Islam for example. All three are distinctly different from one another, yet are probably a result of the same propensity to be religious.

[جوري]

So people who think differently than you are defectors and not 'real' muslims'? Reeks of fundamentalism to me. I was hoping for a balanced debate. But this my way or the high way kind of attitude doesn't speak well at all. This is the kind of attitude behind sunni-shia wars

Again, this has nothing to do with your personal convictions, your beliefs, what this 'reeks' of- it has to do with the historical and religious facts stripped of your emotions. If the British as an example decided to give rise to an Ahamadi sect in India to force their imperialism and weaken the resistance of the Muslims they were occupying and decided to call them Muslims fund them, foster their existence in Germany and other places where they felt traditional Islam is on the rise and to curb its appeal- should we then count them as Muslims- and why? to appeal to western corrupt sensibilities or to yours?
Education and general basic knowledge is a good friend against ignorance and against empty sentiments.

best,

[TJ-alcapone]

Again, this has nothing to do with your personal convictions, your beliefs, what this 'reeks' of- it has to do with the historical and religious facts stripped of your emotions. If the British as an example decided to give rise to an Ahamadi sect in India to force their imperialism and weaken the resistance of the Muslims they were occupying and decided to call them Muslims, should we count them as Muslims?
Education and general basic knowledge is a good friend against ignorance and against empty sentiments.

Again PURE FUNDAMENTALISM. When you take any ideology, be it religious, political or cultural, differences will occur with time and geographical distance. This is inevitable. The Hinduism practiced in Thailand is different from the Hinduism practiced, lets say in the Indian state of Gujarat But if one were to say to the other that they are the 'true practitioners of the religion' and that the other has it wrong, that is what is called bigotry. Debates with such people are useless as they are consumed by their zealous behavior. And you are displaying all the characteristics of of a zealot. As I said before, beliefs have nothing bad about them intrinsically. But once they cross the thresh-hold, they can be used to devastating effect. Like how Saddam Hussein could easily persuade Sunni Iraqis to plunder Shiite majority Iran. I am hear to share opinions, I shall move on hoping to find someone else who doesn't think they're the only ones who've got it all right.

[جوري]

This is inevitable.

That's not an argument nor an excuse- if you've something substantive beyond your personal convictions to bring to the table can this be further discussed.

best,

[Insaanah]

I have seen Muslims from Pakistan, Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. From what I have seen and heard of, the religious practices are vastly different between the people of these countries. I am planning to visit Iran and or Egypt myself soon. And my intuition tells me that I will find people of these countries vastly different from the Pakistan I know of well (as it is a neighbor to my country of India).

Apart from Iran which is a majority Shi'a country, if you're expecting to find religious practices vary widely, you'll be sorely disappointed. We perform ablution the same, pray the same, we face the same direction the world over, we fast the same, we give zakat at the same rate, and every year about 3 million of us from all nooks and crannies of the globe perform hajj, males dressed the same, going to the same places, fulfilling the same rites, the same rites as each other and the same rights annually as over 1400 years ago.

Again on a practical level, the religious principles of Muslim people differ vastly from region to region.

Again, they don't, but you seem to want to keep on insisting on it.

Religion is abstract, and should not be judged by the book. But rather should be judged by the interpretations of people.

I disagree. It should be judged by it's scriptures, and the tenets and teachings outlined in them.

If there is a type of tool, unique and very beneficial, used by three people that don't use it correctly, it would be silly to conclude the tool is faulty. Rather one should go and study the manual, and see how the manufacturer says it should be used, what it's features are, how to get the best out of it, safety advice, what to avoid etc. One should learn and understand first, from the manual, then get a feel for the tool, maybe try it oneself and then conclude. You'd be doing yourself a huge disservice basing your judgement on bad users of the tool, and depriving yourself of the benefit of this tool. A really bad judgement call.

[جوري]

but you seem to want to keep on insisting on it.

Is it so unreasonable to ask someone who is so vehement in their convictions to substantiate their claims in lieu of resorting to name calling with such words as 'fundamentalist' which I am sure is meant to be inflammatory otherwise I am not sure why it has no effect on me whatsoever!

:w:

[Muhammad]

No, the propensity towards being religious is entirely different from proper evidence of truth in a particular religion. Especially when that propensity towards being religious leads to religions like entirely different from one another. Lets take Confucianism, Hinduism and Islam for example. All three are distinctly different from one another, yet are probably a result of the same propensity to be religious.

I was talking about a primary belief in God, not evidence for specific religions. That fact that so many people from different religions, races and areas of the globe, since the beginning of mankind, have had a tendency to search for God, is indicative of His very existence.

[Hulk]

Welcome to the forum TJ. The first step out of ignorance is knowing that you don't know. May you find this forum beneficial. I'd suggest leaving any ego you might have at the door as there is no point bringing it if what you seek is to learn.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace to you TJ-alcapone,

Welcome to the forum!

Hope you find your stay here of benefit!

[Muwaahid]

It doesn't seem to be befitting to debate with someone who is so prone to calling people names like fundamentalist, what is so bad about people sticking to the fundamentals of Islaam and by fundamentalist I don't mean what the biggoted media defines as fundamentalists meaning terrorist I am referring to those who stick to the five pillars of Islaam and the six articles of faith, the orgin of the religion of Islaam.

As for you biggoted fanaticism in clinging tenaciously to your flimsy pathetic irrational beliefs in which you try to infect the muslims with your unfounded claims then that an entirely different issue. Your whole preface in entering this discussion as an informal debate is a waste of time and keystrokes. No doubt you have with you something of evil intent in entering this forum. If you desire the truth then search for it! If you cling to philosophical rhetoric then that is upon you, why not approach this so called quest for knowledge in a humble way. Why not ask yourself, what is the purpose of my existence? Who created me and why? Did the Creator just create me and left me to choose how to live my life? Did He send warners and givers of glad tidings inviting us to guidance or are we glorified apes who are here to eat, sleep, and for lack of better words deficate? How do you explain this existence? How did it come into being and why? Who originated the heavens and earths and the planets and galaxies and solar systems? Why not humble yourself and approach this in a noble way instead of coming off like an arrogant pompus donkey? The Prophet Muhammad [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] said, "al-kibru battural haqq wa ghamtun-naas" Arrogance is rejecting the truth and belittling the people" Of which you are guilty of by calling the sister شَادِنُ a fundamentalist.

I don't know how those individuals you spoke of from the different lands of Islaam could call or even consider you a friend. Perhaps it may be their lack of knowledge because who would want to befriend someone like you with such a filthy despicable loathesome belief and the fact that you want to propagate it and call to it and invite others to it and cause doubts in the minds of the muslims is pretty repugnant. At any rate, you are you and you are upon what you are upon and to you be your way and to me be mines.