2nd coming in christianity

[جوري]

Can someone quote me the biblical passages about Jesus :as: second coming.

[جوري]

bump-- need those passages please or am I to take his second coming as a borrowed belief from Muslims?!

best,

[glo]

I'm not sure this will help you if you need something in a hurry - because it is a lot to read through.
(For additional information, Revelation describes a vision which Paul had - many Christians don't consider it to be an actual description of the End Times, but a poetic one)

http://www.openbible.info/topics/the...oming_of_jesus

Basic tenets:
Christians believe that Jesus will come again at a time unknown, and that he will sit in judgment of the living and the dead.

This might help too, although I have only glanced at it.
Be aware that Christians have differences in opinion as to whether we are already in the end times or not. I have heard Muslims ponder similar questions too.

http://www.christianbiblereference.o...condComing.htm

[جوري]

what specific verse speaks of him descending in Lud and killing the anti-christ? All what I have seen from what you provided speaks of the end not a second coming.

best,

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[YusufNoor]

:sl:

there isn't any reference to where. peruse Revelation and the end of the Gospels. what are you really looking for? "end time" "Prophecies" are all over the place.

The Coming of the Kingdom of God

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”[c]

22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day[d] will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

use this site to search. i use it:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/...=all&bookset=4

ma salaama

[جوري]

what are you really looking for?

specific signs that Jesus is going to descend, kill the anti-christ etc. that is what I am looking for ..

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

you have to look for references to "the beast". the anti christ you can look up, but it isn't related to the end time. you're in for a surprise if you think everything is spelled in one place. Daniel and Revelation are similar, but different. try "the evil one" too. alot of end time stuff is implied and not concrete.

you can also look up Herbert W Armstrong. he has some interesting end time stuff. just overlook the stuff about him and his daughter.

i doubt there is a single kill the antichrist, but check "slay the dragon"

ma salaama

[جوري]

I have learned much from you in one post than I could with a day's worth of research :jz: :D

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

start Rev 12

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

up through 19

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

and 20

The Thousand Years

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Judgment of Satan

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

ma salaama

[Scimitar]

I was gonna say, look at Revelations... you'll find yourself drawing some parallels to the hadeeths with it. Especially with relation to the beast of the Earth (Dhabbatul Ardh). The mark of the beast, on the forehead or hand etc, and a host of other prophecies, which align pretty much with Hadeeth also.

But no slaying of the anti-Christ in revelations.

[YusufNoor]

clarification on Christian term antichrist

http://www.bible.ca/D-AntiChrist.htm

[جوري]

sometimes when I read christian stuff it depresses me so much. The other day I was looking for end of the world prophecies to do with Egypt and Syria and in all fairness I was looking for Islamic sites but so happens the first five pages were the usual tirade of course, quoting Isiah about the evils of the Egyptian Muslims etc. I got sick of that crap fast and started my search in Arabic. I appreciate how difficult this must be for converts to want to look for something and be bombarded by a truck load of crap until you no longer know what you're looking for.

[YusufNoor]

i have a great course on Revelation. 12 hours. most of what people believe is in Revelation isn't actually in there. people cut and paste stuff from all over, assuming it all goes together. i know, WAS one of those folks...

[جوري]

That's why what you do here is so important.. It is the distillate of your studies plus something you understand better than any outsider looking in.


:w:

[glo]

i have a great course on Revelation. 12 hours. most of what people believe is in Revelation isn't actually in there. people cut and paste stuff from all over, assuming it all goes together. i know, WAS one of those folks...

I agree that fathoming what Revelation is about and how to understand it (literal or figurative?) is nigh impossible.
I reckon that nobody can really know - but the worst are the people who claim they do ...

I would be quite interested to catch a glimpse at your course, Yusuf.
Can you send it via PM?

Ambrosia, did you get the answer you were looking for?

[جوري]

No it's vague and non specific.

[glo]

I was gonna say, look at Revelations... you'll find yourself drawing some parallels to the hadeeths with it. Especially with relation to the beast of the Earth (Dhabbatul Ardh). The mark of the beast, on the forehead or hand etc, and a host of other prophecies, which align pretty much with Hadeeth also.

That's interesting.
Which hadiths do you have in mind? Can you post a link?
It would be interesting to see the similarities between Revelation and hadiths.

[glo]

No it's vague and non specific.

What I meant was, did YusufNoor's posts help you with what you wanted to find out? I thought he did a good job in finding out what exactly you wanted to know and giving good information.

[جوري]

He did a good job what's disappointing is the content not his efforts!


Best

[glo]

He did a good job what's disappointing is the content not his efforts!

I'd be surprised if it made sense to you. After all, you are a Muslim and not a Christian.

Hopefully it's helped you gain a bit of understanding though. :)

I'm still interested in exploring the similarities between Revelations and hadiths, if anybody has any information.

[جوري]

It is nothing to do with me being a Muslim reading an allegedly christian text. Rather the logical continuity is one aspect and the lack of specificity is another. I was expecting that it would mirror the Islamic version at least in some aspects.

best,

[glo]

Are there no similarities at all?

[جوري]

No, it is almost supernatural too some aspects like the 1000 year rule if I understood it correctly.

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

here's the problem with "endtime prophecies"

27 The Son of Man will come with his angels and will be great like his Father. Then he will pay every man for what he has done.

28 I tell you the truth. Some people are standing here who will not die before they see the Son of Man come in his kingdom.'

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...WYC;NIV1984;WE

the author of Matthew, in chapter 16, CLEARLY states that Jesus, allegedly, make an incorrect prophecy that he would return while some of the people there WERE STILL ALIVE! is God the author of confusion? the ramifications of this error are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. many people wrongly assume that Muhammad ibn Abdullah made no prophecies, and therefore was not sent by God. well, IF Jesus ibn Mary made a boo boo with his, then not only wouldn't he be a true prophet, but NO WAY could he be God! PERIOD! as you should all know, we Muslims KNOW Jesus, the son of Mary, is a GREAT PROPHET! so...the authenticity of the book written by the author of Matthew comes into question. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THAT FACT AND REMEMBER IT!

in early Christianity, CHRISTIANS WERE EXPECTING TO LITERALLY SEE JESUS' RETURN! one of the reasons we start to see written Gospels a generation after Jesus ascended into heaven is that people were realizing that this prophecy might not be true! up until this point, all you had to do "was believe". you were going to see your reward, so just be patient. NOW, realizing that the "return" was NOT as imminent as thought to be, focus started turning to "WHAT" do we believe! in different regions, beliefs varied, thus you see "disagreements" in the "written records". this is one of the reasons why "Paul's" pastoral letters, Timothy I & II and Titus, appear to have such philosophical differences with earlier works of Paul. that and the fact that PAUL DID NOT WRITE THEM. by studying the sequence of New Testament documents, you can see Christian beliefs EVOLVE.

when we get to Revelation, we DO NOT have a book "predicting" future events! what you have is a book that says, "yes, it is Rome and NOT Jesus, that rules the world. YES, awful thing MIGHT HAPPEN, BUT, NO MATTER WHAT DOES HAPPEN, have FAITH and remain steadfast, because Jesus, eventually, WILL return!

i apologize for not being complete in this. my health is failing and i have just been given notice of eviction. i WILL try to address what i can, in shaa Allah, as i can direct my mind to pertinent information.

i mentioned a great lecture on Revelation. here is the link. if i have an opportunity, i will attempt to locate a few important point:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/c....aspx?cid=6433

please forgive me i make any errors, and i am not attacking anyone's beliefs. i am simply relaying the work of some great students of Biblical literature and praying that everyone sees what has been overlooked by many people. for me, this has been the "coolest ride" of my life. i enjoy this stuff like you wouldn't believe.

ma salaama

[جوري]

my health is failing and i have just been given notice of eviction

I am very sorry to learn this akhi imsad

[YusufNoor]

alhamdulillahi raabil al amin for whatever Allah sends my way!

[YusufNoor]

I agree that fathoming what Revelation is about and how to understand it (literal or figurative?) is nigh impossible.
I reckon that nobody can really know - but the worst are the people who claim they do ...

I would be quite interested to catch a glimpse at your course, Yusuf.
Can you send it via PM?

Ambrosia, did you get the answer you were looking for?

:embarrass: :embarrass: :embarrass:

by "have", i meant own. i spend a great deal of time and effort presenting what "experts" say. "for the most part" i inform others what "Christian Theologians" say about sources. i DO use Bart Ehrman as a source about historical elements of textural criticism, HOWEVER, only if he is in agreement with the majority of Christian sources. i DISAGREE with him on theology, but i won't quote him unless and until i confirm what he says is generally accepted as true.

you will rarely hear me say, "this is what this Muslim scholar thinks about this book of the Bible." i fear the second that i do that, non Muslims will tune out because they don't care what a Muslim thinks about their books. if i use a non mainstream Christian point of view, i try to remember to make that known as well. THAT is also why it says "anathema" under my name. my views weren't mainstream to begin with.

i DO at times ponder the works of Sheikh Mohammed Awal. he travels the world making dawah. i like his approach to scripture, he actually was influential in my decision to apply my own views and research to explain a different viewpoint on comparative religion. alhamdulillah, we are friends. we chat as he roams the globe and i relay my findings to him.

the reason i do this is that i cringe when a Muslim brother makes a mistake when he speaks about Christianity. if "we" make an error, even 1 tiny one, then Christians call us liars. they may have a thousand misconceptions about Islam, but that doesn't bother them. we make one error, and it is used against us. we are called untruthful.

my position is that we have the truth, therefore, we have nothing to fear. as we uncover the real truth, it WILL agree with us. we have NO mistakes in theology. any mistakes we make are our own. removing them helps others to see a more accurate picture of the truth, so it benefits everyone.

here is that lecture series:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/c....aspx?cid=6433

the funny thing about it is i had the same initial disappointment as Purest when i began watching it. all of the cool end of the world prophecies are gone. BUT, the speaker really makes a remarkable case for his position. i recommend it.

here is Sheikh Mohammed Awal's facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/sheikh.m.awal

ma salaama

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

to "understand" Christian views of Revelation, it helps to see how the views evolved.

to put it simply: by the 8th Century, Christians has set in stone, so to speak, what one had to believe to be a Christian. part of those beliefs was the 1000 year rule mentioned in Revelation.

by the time of Luther, concern was more about the present. those rejecting the Catholic Church tried to find Biblical support for their actions. if we are wrong today, what matter is tomorrow. most of your "Protestant' sects zeroed on and around the concept they they were "chosen" to reveal the truth. major theological discussion revolved around predestination. as in, we were chosen since the beginning of time by God. too bad for you if you weren't chosen.

it was after these arguments were fully shaped that thought could then focus on the future. we own today, therefore as God's elect, it is WE who can best tell you about. tomorrow.

by the 1800s, we have many and varied foretellings of the end of time. by 1844, folks realized that they were wrong and pushed thinking about Revelation into a further tomorrow. here we have the beginnings of Zionism. it revolves around the fig tree mentioned in the Gospels:

Matthew 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mark 11
12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

Luke 21
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

the fig tree is identified as Israel, thus no "end time" until the fig "bears fruit."

this is how the prophecies that most of us are familiar with took shape, you will notice that they are mostly Protestant, and NOT Anglican or Lutheran. what you begin to see is the view that "we are correct about tomorrow, and that makes us correct in today." it's a return to a similar message of Matthew noted earlier, "the world is ending, you better join us."

Duhr time, so i'll stop here. but it is interesting to see the Christian memes come full circle.

ma salaama

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

delving briefly into the term antichrist.

the origins of the term antichrist is used for one who denies Jesus is Christ. i just want to point out that, as Muslims we DON'T do that! we deny any attributes of divinity to Jesus, but NOT that he is the Christ. once Christianity becomes legal in the Roman Empire, we have a new problem. the Church has power. power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

what happens when you disagree with power? Bishops and monks now become focal points of ecclesiastic power. they become the church, so to speak. if you disagree with the Bishop, you disagree with the church. you disagree with the church, you disagree with Christ. NOW, you become antichrist! get it? it's very simple. i've read some histories on Christianity in the 4th and 5th Centuries, guess what? there is a great deal of Christian on Christian violence. why?

Matt 18:8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire.

Matt 5:29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire.

if you disagree with your local "power", that power claims that you must be cast off! if you disagree with the central power, same thing. you are antichrist, because you are anti-me. i am the power, therefore i wield the power to cast you off. his is why, at one point, the Pope, as Bishop of Rome and the Patriarch of Constantinople each excommunicated (cast off) each other.

sticking with the Catholic Church, ANY sect that forms and has a disagreement with becomes antichrist. you can also become antichrist by just disagreeing with the Pope, or even a Bishop or a Monk. all that matters is that they hold power and you don't. in a worse case scenario, a Bishop takes or rapes your wife or daughter; if you object or rebel, you are now antichrist. fun, innit?

from a Catholic viewpoint, ANY sect can be declared antichrist. and they usually are. when you want to rule the world, your enemies become antichrist simply because you are their enemy. this is why "Saracens' became antichrist.

once you have Protestants, they charge Catholics as being antichrist. they might as well, the Catholics did it to them. this is how Rome, the seat of Catholicism, becomes the "***** of Babylon."

knowing the origin of a "prophecy' can help you know ahead of time where they believe the spirit of antichrist lies. my familiarity is with those that claim Rome is antichrist.

antichrist is your enemy, NOT whatever the Bible says.

ma salaama

[cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn]

It would be interesting to see the similarities between Revelation and hadiths.

These are lengthy but may interest you. It's an Islamic and Christian eschatological dialogue.





- cOsMiC

[YusufNoor]

:wa:

there is an amazing correspondence between Maulana Imran and the British/Israeli identity belief. i know this because i am well versed in that school of thought. a good read on this would be JH Allen's Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright copyright 1902. Herbert W Armstrong is thought to have plagiarized it in his United States and Great Britain in Prophecy, which i am also well versed in.where they part ways is that the Anglo American Alliance is seen as modern day Israel (Northern Tribes) and thus the recipient of promises made to Jacob/Israel to Joseph. this group naturally becomes the protector of Brother Israel (Judah). in quasi Christian terms, they are the saviors of the world, in Imram Hosein's view they are the last step of the antichrist's kingdom before he shifts to Israel for his final kingdom and subsequent defeat.

going back to the difficulties with mainstream eschatology, which isn't meant to be a monologue :p. early Christian history in Judea is overshadowed by the 2 Jewish rebellions in the 1st and 2nd centuries. the view we have as the dust clears is that there are 3 centers of Christianity: Alexandria, Antioch and Ephesus. as Christianity is illegal under the Roman Empire, contact is local; this cause Christianity to evolve differently in each area. in Egypt, where Pharaoh's were considered god, Jesus becomes more fully understood as a full complete god. Athanasius, victor at Nicaea is from Alexandria. Arius, the loser, is from Antioch. in Antioch, Jesus is also god, but a great deal of pondering concerns the question of how he actually became god. reasoning was that God existed alone, the created Jesus as god. Jesus then becomes the creator of everything else as per John I.

what happens when Jesus is born as a human is a tough nut for the folks at Antioch. in Alexandria, dualism, once an anathema to the Church becomes the rule of the day. Mary become the mother of god there. in Antioch, nothing really makes any sense. they spend more time rejecting Alexandrian ideas than formulating their own. this is why Nestorian churches originate in Antioch.

from the 4th to the 8th century Christians battle over the "nature" of Jesus as a human. the acceptance of Jesus as god predates Nicaea by 2 centuries. if you come across works claiming Jesus became god at Nicaea, don't use them. the author has not done his research.

the only real eschatology at the time revolves around the 1000 year reign. are we in it or not. because Christianity becomes the "official" religion of the Empire, the main question is "what do we believe officially?" that is center stage and many thousands are tortured, slain and raped in the period for having the "wrong" beliefs. what we believe "today" is vastly more important than what tomorrow may bring.

when Constantine moves his capitol to Constantinople, any authority Ephesus has it assumed there. the "war" between Christians and Christian ideas becomes centered there, but it is really a war between Antioch and Alexandria. Bishops and Monks become war-leaders and war-mongers. it isn't very pretty and the history of the west conveniently ignores it.

ma salaama

[GodIsAll]

YusufNoor:

Thank you for all of your posts in this thread. I enjoyed each one.

[YusufNoor]

you're welcome Akhi!

this is all a fascinating subject, one i was always interested in. if i could do nothing but this, i would be content.

peace

[Grace Seeker]

One of the things that even most Christians today would be surprised by, is that the belief regarding a 2nd coming that includes a rapture of the church and leaving behind of the world is a relatively recent teaching. That doesn't mean it is false, but it needs to be noted that the scriptures have not always been read to that conclusion. So if, in reading the passages that Yusuf shared with you, you don't see the popular mantra regarding Christ's second coming, count yourself as one who is reading in harmony with the majority of Christians throughout history. As to what is presently in vogue, especially in certain circles that make it seem as if they know the secrets to the end of the world, one of those who has probably presented this the best, and tied it to scripture, is Hal Lindsey in his book "The Late Great Planet Earth."

Now, don't think that Lindsey is scripture. There is a lot of stuff that he said that was simply wrong. He is what is called a dispensationalist, that is he believes that there are certain epocs of time in which God acts. In his view he thought the re-establishment of Israel was necessary to take place before the 2nd Coming. And so since that happened in 1948, within a generation (40 years) should come the season of Christ's return. Well, that would have been 1988 or there abouts. I think we are a long way from the thereabouts. So, Lindsey was obviously wrong. What he says today is that not that his interpretation of scripture was wrong, but that he selected the wrong event to speak of the restoration of Israel. So, be careful not to get caught up in all of Lindsey's interpretation of prophecy and coorelating them to world events. But, what Lindsey did with his book was to take 19th century dispensationalism and move it from the fringes of Christian thought and make it popular with the masses.

You probably won't like any of this theories. But if you are looking a place that brings all the scriptural references together in one place for you, this book is likely going to be an excellent resource for you. I think when you read those scriptures in the context in which they were written you'll see something different than Lindsey saw, I do. But that is a great place to get the texts you are after.

But one does not have to be a dispensationalist like Lindsey to see that scripture does speak of Jesus' eventual return. It is called his 2nd coming, because we Christians understand that Christ's first coming was when he was born of Mary, lived and walked the earth among us. Then he leaves with the promise that he will return once again, hence there will be a second coming:

Acts 1
9 After he [Jesus] said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. ¹⁰ They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. ¹¹ “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

1 Thessalonians 4
¹³ Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. ¹⁴ For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. ¹⁵ According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. ¹⁸ Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The early church thought that these events would take place within the first generation of the Church. This was because that is what they thought Jesus meant when he had himself said:

Mark 13
²⁶ “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. ²⁷ And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
²⁸ “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. ²⁹ Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it^[d] is near, right at the door. ³⁰ Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Now, I believe that he was talking about something other than what Lindsey today calls the rapture. But whatever it was that Jesus was actually talking about, the early church did think that this meant that most of them would see Jesus come back in their lifetime. And one of the big problems of the church toward that later half of the first century, was that it had to explain why that had not happened. This is the question put to Paul by the church in Corinth: "But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?" (1 Corinthians 15:12) They were not questioning the resurrection of Jesus; they were questioning this promise of their own general resurrection of all the faithful dead that was suppose to take place with Christ's second coming. Could they really depend on it, when they didn't see any signs of it happening as they expected?

And in other communities people had given up hope and were beginning to think that Christ's second coming had already happened and they had missed it. This elicited a rather long response from Paul:

2 Thessalonians 2
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, ² not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. ³ Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. ⁴ He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. ⁵ Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? ⁶ And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. ⁷ For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. ⁸ And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. ⁹ The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, ¹⁰ and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. ¹¹ For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie ¹² and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

¹³ But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. ¹⁴ He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
¹⁵ So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
¹⁶ May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, ¹⁷ encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

We see that even as Paul understands that his own death is immenent, he still holds to the hope of this appearing of Christ which today is often termed his "Second Coming" but was by the early church most often simply called "The Day of the Lord" (sometimes even shortened to simply "that Day"):

2 Timothy 4
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: ² Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. ³ For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. ⁴ They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. ⁵ But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
⁶ For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. ⁷ I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. ⁸ Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

But I don't want to give you the mistaken idea that this was all Paul's idea. Peter and John both refer to this "Day" in their letters. And even early than the earliest parts of the New Testament is the Didache, which gives instructions for the ritual practiced by the early church. In the Didache, one of the prayers that the faithful would pray when receiving the Eucharist was to pray, "Come, Lord Jesus;" a prayer which is still prayed in the Church to this very day.

So, I don't know if that helps or not. I guess one other word. As I said, Hal Lindsey is a dispensationalist. For another understanding of this "Day of the Lord" I would encourage you to read "Surprised By Hope" by N.T. Wright. The books is going to cover much more than just Christ's second coming, but I do think Wright does a better job of interpreting the scriptural references to those End Times than does Lindsey. However, Wright is most certainly NOT a dispensationalist; if that is the particular interest you have, then you'll want to stay with Lindsey or someone like J. Vernon McGee or, for one of the first who preached it, John Darby.

[Grace Seeker]

By the way, Yusuf, that was really a good presentation you offered in post #31. Summarizing 400 years of history into a half dozen paragraphs, well done. I'm impressed. Other than the suggestion that the faith in Alexandria was an expression of Dualism, I also think you pretty much got it right as well.

[جوري]

I've often felt it was recent per your comment seeker because it was borrowed from Islam and indeed it wouldn't render it false perhaps it's the only truth to otherwise questionable passages from unknown origin and authorship!

Best

[YusufNoor]

By the way, Yusuf, that was really a good presentation you offered in post #31. Summarizing 400 years of history into a half dozen paragraphs, well done. I'm impressed. Other than the suggestion that the faith in Alexandria was an expression of Dualism, I also think you pretty much got it right as well.

maybe i wrote it wrong. i meant that the dualism of different aspects of Jesus, which eventually won the day, became accepted officially in Alexandra first. and this despite the fact that any form of dualism was first rejected in Alexandria. i am not saying that their faith "was an expression of" dualism, merely that it becomes part of the official belief there first.

it is a tricky task trying put things in perspective in very few words. the fact that so many things happened in a gigantic seesaw struggle that lasted so long makes it harder. i am adding a suggestion that, while early ideas of leader as of son of a god are found in Roman emperor worship, perhaps because that idea existed longer in Egypt with the Pharaohs, it was quicker to formulate a more complete god like ideas, or maybe interpretations, about Jesus there.

this is complicated stuff, but i feel that the least we can do as Muslims is try to see what really happened and move away from a "Dan Brown" type of understanding of history. i try to get my information from PhDs, not DJs.

there are prior posts suggesting that the larger part of current Eschatological theory are solidified in the 1800s. this is based upon Professor Craig R. Koester's lecture Awaiting the End in 1844 and Beyond . this lecture 22 of his 24 part Apocalypse: Controversies and Meaning in Western History series available here:

http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/c....aspx?cid=6433

it is Lutheran perspective on Revelation. it is brilliantly done, though if you're looking for 20th Century Armageddon, which was always my mindset, it isn't there. as soon as i got over that, i grew to appreciate his perspective on the topic. there is much that seems logical in his course. i would advise people to start here, rather than with other "end of world" theory works. you will see the others in a vastly different light if you do.

[ccc]

i think that the most certain way to see what aspects of the christian faith were present from the beginning is to see what were saying the early texts accepted in the most of the christian comunity from that time .Another good source are the early writings about christians belonging to non christians, even if those texts come from people who had not an understanding of the things they were describing.Of course, the authenticity of any text in this world can be doubted.

[ccc]

for instance, about the second coming, i think there is an important passage in the Didache, "The Teachings of the Apostles", dated in the first or the second century:
"Remember, Lord, your Church, to save it from all evil and to make it perfect by your love. Make it holy, 'and gather' it 'together from the four winds into your Kingdom which you have made ready for it. For yours is the power and the glory forever." "Let Grace come and let this world pass away."
"Hosanna to the God of David!"
"If anyone is holy, let him come. If not, let him repent."
"Our Lord, come!"

[ccc]

about the second coming in Bible, besides the Book of Revelation, which has as subject the second coming, another passage with great importance is this:
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be ... Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh ... (Mat. 24:36-51)