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glo
12-19-2012, 05:52 PM
Two polio vaccination workers have been killed in north-western Pakistan in the latest of a spate of deadly attacks.

The shootings in the Peshawar region left a vaccination supervisor and her driver dead, and injured a volunteer.

The deaths brought to eight the number of health workers killed in this week's anti-polio drive. The three-day drive is now over.

No group has claimed responsibility, but the Taliban have issued threats against the UN's anti-polio efforts.

The militants have accused health workers of working as US spies and say the vaccine makes children sterile.

Pakistan is one of just three countries where the disease is still endemic.

Coming after five deaths on Tuesday, and one on Monday, the UN children's agency Unicef and the World Health Organisation halted work in Sindh province in the south and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in the north-west on Tuesday. The suspension was extended nationwide on Wednesday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20779388

My father contracted polio as a young man and remained wheelchair dependent for the rest of his life. We are so close to eradicating the polio virus completely, so this is a real set-back! imsad
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sister herb
12-19-2012, 08:00 PM
I read at this morning from my local newspaper this same news. Also from that newspaper I read that last year polio paralyzed at least 200 children in Pakistan.

imsad
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~Zaria~
12-19-2012, 08:19 PM
Hmmm.....this is going to be interesting - a topic on vaccinations and the taliban in one, on this forum...... Oh boy!

Im sitting this one out.

Thanks for sharing Glo : )
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Roasted Cashew
12-19-2012, 09:00 PM
I was gonna share this myself. What a shame... media is to be blamed too for sensationalizing the CIA vaccination method and making this already brainwashed scum of a people even more paranoid.
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Roasted Cashew
12-19-2012, 10:43 PM
Now more lives will be scarred as we can't agree on how to deal with these Jihadis
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sister herb
12-19-2012, 11:06 PM
Were they same whose shoot a girl to head because she wanted to study? And now same whose think it is better that children (and adults too) die or paralyze by polio than get vaccination by some strange conspiracy theory from CIA?

:phew
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Roasted Cashew
12-19-2012, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Were they the same who shot a girl in the head because she wanted to study?
Most likely..
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ardianto
12-22-2012, 10:01 AM
There are pros and cons in the Muslim communities for halal status of polio vaccine. This is because of the Trypsin (enzyme pig) used in the vaccine manufacturing process.

This is explanation of polio vaccine making process by dr.Novilia Sjafri Bachtiar from Biofarma[*]

1. Trypsin is not material for the vaccine, but for cell harvest used for viral media. Trypsin is material to release cells from the media where virus attached.

2. Trypsin removed, there is also a washing process, and then the process of dissolution with water in very large numbers.

3. In the final product was not found elements of trypsin.

So, is polio vaccine halal? or haram?.

Regarding to this matter, Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) has issued a fatwa that polio vaccine is allowed to be used because currently there is no other vaccine which does not use material from pig. (with note: when "Trypsin-free" polio vaccine has been invented, this "trypsin-use" vaccine becomes haram).

MUI allow this polio vaccine using based on "law of emergency situation", which this vaccination program is very important to save the children from polio.

Ulema in other Muslim-majority countries have issued similar fatwa too, including ulema in Saudi Arabia. But unfortunately, there are local mullah in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Nigeria who refuse those fatawa and forbid people to receive polio vaccination.

[*]Biofarma is Indonesian government-own vaccine manufacturer, located in Bandung city. This is one of only 28 vaccines manufacturers in the world that listed in WHO prequalified list. Biofarma is the only polio vaccines manufacturers (in WHO prequalified list) which located in Muslim-majority country.
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ardianto
12-22-2012, 10:02 AM
World Polio Map 1988-2012



Look at the 2012 Map. There are only three countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Nigeria.
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glo
12-22-2012, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
World Polio Map 1988-2012



Look at the 2012 Map. There are only three countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Nigeria.
The Polio Programme achieved all that in the space of 24 years? That's amazing!
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جوري
12-22-2012, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
There are pros and cons in the Muslim communities
It isn't a question of Halal or Haram, many of the harmful material are removed out of vaccines or at least an effort is made to do so. Also even in the rare cases of egg allergies and the likes it is recommended that the vaccine is given anyway & watchful waiting to any side effects that ensue as it is better to treat an allergy than a disease as a result of a missed vaccine ..
That being said, this is a political issue not a health related one. I think Pakistan best answers that question as to why they've to import foreign vaccines and foreign workers to administer them many who aren't health care workers at all. Please read the 'stealth crusade' ..
I'll go so far to say to Sr. Zaria that the first successful heart transplant took place in south Africa and if she knows of the reasons why it would shed some light as to why some folks are hesitant to have their children be the subject of such vaccines.

A country that doesn't make its own weapons, plant its own food and fosters its own industry will unfortunately sacrifice its children and its dignity and always kowtow and be dependent on foreign nations who haven't the best intentions.

Already evil is spewed from their tongues and what their hearts hide is even worse!

Al-Imran [3:118]

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ بِطَانَةً مِّن دُونِكُمْ لاَ يَأْلُونَكُمْ خَبَالاً وَدُّواْ مَا عَنِتُّمْ قَدْ بَدَتِ الْبَغْضَاء مِنْ أَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَمَا تُخْفِي صُدُورُهُمْ أَكْبَرُ قَدْ بَيَّنَّا لَكُمُ الآيَاتِ إِن كُنتُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la tattakhithoo bitanatan min doonikum la yaloonakum khabalan waddoo ma AAanittum qad badati albaghdao min afwahihim wama tukhfee sudooruhum akbaru qad bayyanna lakumu alayati in kuntum taAAqiloona
3:118 O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.

:w:
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CosmicPathos
12-23-2012, 12:36 AM
I support vaccinations but this is one incident where I am happy. I have empathies for the children paralyzed by polio but that has nothing to do with vaccine, they would have been paralyzed anyway because vaccine was not available then and such was God's will.

The fact US was able to run a fake vaccination program to attack a country, some sort of repercussions should be experienced by its citizens. It is sad that children have to be the ones experiencing these repercussions but so be it.
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sister herb
12-23-2012, 06:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
IThe fact US was able to run a fake vaccination program to attack a country, some sort of repercussions should be experienced by its citizens. It is sad that children have to be the ones experiencing these repercussions but so be it.
One more conspiracy theory? USA wants to kill äll muslims by false vaccination?

;D
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ardianto
12-25-2012, 06:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
One more conspiracy theory? USA wants to kill äll muslims by false vaccination?

;D
I don't think that USA wants to kill all Muslims by false vaccination. But in fact CIA ran fake vaccination program to search Bin Laden. They were success, but innocent health workers bear the consequence. Now there are people in pakistan who see this polio vaccination program with suspicion and suspect that health workers are working for CIA.
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glo
12-25-2012, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
But in fact CIA ran fake vaccination program to search Bin Laden. They were success, but innocent health workers bear the consequence. Now there are people in pakistan who see this polio vaccination program with suspicion and suspect that health workers are working for CIA.
That was a very damaging thing to do! It has completely undermined the good work this health programme is trying to achieve. Stupid and infuriating!! :heated:
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Endymion
12-25-2012, 02:42 PM
Another thing might be interesting for you to know that the quality of the vaccine is corrupt and most people dont trust it.Only those who can't afford private vaccination,allow them to vaccinate their kid with this.The vaccines require a specific temperature to keep in and there are workers having vaccines in bottles full of water,unaware of health requirements,vaccinate tiny creatures.My niece got this vaccination and she fall ill and we spent thousands of rupees on her health.Polio took 200 lives last year and other diseases specially Pneumonia took thousands of lives here but nobody gave any importance to such issues before.Thanks to Taliban who kill people in such a fashion that raise important issues on International level and people killing is not a big deal here,hundreds get killed daily and no one feel their pain or even notice they were humans or animals.
Leaving aside conspiracy theory,this vaccine is itself a reason of so many diseases.Took several lives in India as well and Doctors are suspicious about this oral polio vaccine used in SA.
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جوري
12-25-2012, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Endymion
about this oral polio vaccine used in SA.
Polio is supposed to be oral since polio affects the Gi tract and is an oral/fecal type transmission.. they changed it to accommodate HIV patients obviously, it is meant for IgA type immunity not IgG, but that is a story for another day and another time. Not many people know about microbio nor immunology especially those mouthing about conspiracy theories or display expertise on foreign countries socio/economic and geopolitical plights- but what can we do?
Al-Furqan (The Criterion)[25:63]

[RECITE]
[top] [next match]

WaAAibadu alrrahmani allatheena yamshoona AAala alardi hawnan waitha khatabahumu aljahiloona qaloo salaman
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Endymion
12-25-2012, 03:24 PM
Yup,i dearly wish people have have some knowledge about the condition here and have a unbiased,media free view using their heads and then speak about Pakistan.This Taliban behind everything bad even Ehsanullah Ehsan responsible for my over spiced curry made me sick now.I always thought of staying away from such topics but then i thought i better give them the correct knowledge and then everyone is free to decide where to go.Sigh :hmm:
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ardianto
12-25-2012, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Endymion
Leaving aside conspiracy theory,this vaccine is itself a reason of so many diseases.Took several lives in India as well and Doctors are suspicious about this oral polio vaccine used in SA.
Oral polio vaccine (OPV) that used in India actually were coming from Indonesia, at least until early of 2012. However, different than OPV that used in Indonesia which processed by Biofarma since first stage until finish, OPV that exported to India were in half-finished condition. It's because Indian govt wanted finishing process done by Indian companies. But problem happen after two Indian companies failed to fulfill standard of processing. WHO has ordered Biofarma to stop half-finished polio vaccine export to India.

About OPV that used in Pakistan. I don't know where those OPV come from.
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Endymion
12-25-2012, 03:59 PM
It comes from USA.
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CosmicPathos
12-25-2012, 04:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
Polio is supposed to be oral since polio affects the Gi tract and is an oral/fecal type transmission.. they changed it to accommodate HIV patients obviously, it is meant for IgA type immunity not IgG, but that is a story for another day and another time. Not many people know about microbio nor immunology especially those mouthing about conspiracy theories or display expertise on foreign countries socio/economic and geopolitical plights- but what can we do?
Al-Furqan (The Criterion)[25:63]

[RECITE]

WaAAibadu alrrahmani allatheena yamshoona AAala alardi hawnan waitha khatabahumu aljahiloona qaloo salaman
so the vaccination program must be stopped as people have done?

salam
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ardianto
12-25-2012, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Endymion
It comes from USA.
Oral polio vaccine never be used again in USA since 1998, and has been changed by Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) that given by injection. IPV is better than OPV. However, according to doctors in my place, IPV is very expensive and should be given by health workers who are trained in injection.

I don't think American vaccine manufacturers still produce OPV.
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CosmicPathos
12-25-2012, 04:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Endymion
Yup,i dearly wish people have have some knowledge about the condition here and have a unbiased,media free view using their heads and then speak about Pakistan.This Taliban behind everything bad even Ehsanullah Ehsan responsible for my over spiced curry made me sick now.I always thought of staying away from such topics but then i thought i better give them the correct knowledge and then everyone is free to decide where to go.Sigh :hmm:
I respect your opinion here but sometimes you come across as if only you know the truth in Pakistan and no one else doe.

People in Pak, how else can they know who is behind the death of their loved ones in a random bomb attack? People want to know the cause. Was it angel, shaitan, US or taliban? Media and public opinion has made it easy to point to taliban, cuz after all bearded men are from stone ages and cant have the finesse to be humanists. Only shaved men can be true proper gentlemen.

Dont you agree that this ehsanullah idiot after everything happens is comfy enough and releases a statement like pig's fart to the media that we carried out such and such attack? I thought generals are busy in making strategies for winning the war, and dont have time to talk to media.
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CosmicPathos
12-25-2012, 04:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Oral polio vaccine never be used again in USA since 1998, and has been changed by Inactivated polio vaccine (IPV) that given by injection. IPV is better than OPV. However, according to doctors in my place, IPV is very expensive and should be given by health workers who are trained in injection.

I don't think American vaccine manufacturers still produce OPV.
opv is cheap but it has known to cause outbreaks because it is excreted in feces and as virus replicates in proper host, it regains back its virulence.
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جوري
12-25-2012, 04:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
so the vaccination program must be stopped as people have done?
That's is something that the individual as well Pakistani govt. should decide!
There's such a thing as patient autonomy look it up, it is filed under medical ethics!
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
IPV is better than OPV
It is actually not. I have briefly commented on that, but it is hardly the issue to argue over!

:w:
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ardianto
12-25-2012, 05:08 PM
There are two reasons from people who against vaccination. First, medical reason, which they sure that the best way to prevent disease is build antibody naturally. Second, religious reason, which (maybe) happen only in Muslim society.

There are Muslim who believe that vaccination (not only polio vaccination) is against sunnah, and considered as tashabuh (imitating non-Muslims).
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CosmicPathos
12-25-2012, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
There's such a thing as patient autonomy look it up, it is filed under medical ethics!
yea, i know what patient autonomy means. you are not the only doctor here.

Patient autonomy applies to 5 years old too? parents are their decision makers.

I do not see what patient autonomy has to do with my question regarding people deciding to stop vaccination just cuz it can decrease their sperm count.
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جوري
12-25-2012, 05:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Patient autonomy applies to 5 years old too? parents are their decision makers.
Decision is always with the parents or whomever is the legal caretaker if it isn't a life threatening situation. Do look that up too!

best,
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CosmicPathos
12-25-2012, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
Decision is always with the parents if it isn't a life threatening situation. Do look that up too!

best,
No, thanks. It does not, for a 5 year old. And if it indeed does, then that's the pitfall of hocus-pocus modern individualism. giving autonomy to a 5 year old is no different from asking Nazis to come in power.
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جوري
12-25-2012, 05:17 PM
Did you read what you quoted- I misread your original message and corrected it- it is good to correct onself sometimes.

best,
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CosmicPathos
12-25-2012, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
Did you read what you quoted- I misread your original message and corrected it- it is good to correct onself sometimes.

best,
pendulum has clearly swung too much in favor of patient autonomy. It is time to push some paternalism back. I am all for paternalism now. Thankfully there are young staff who think likewise.

wsalam
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جوري
12-25-2012, 05:24 PM
Laws don't change because of what you think. Autonomy exists both in Islam and Medicine.. perhaps you should buy your own island and do as you please there!
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ardianto
12-25-2012, 05:29 PM
Back to shooting cases. There were cases which happened in Karachi (or near Karachi city). Is it possible if those shooting cases committed by Taliban?. I found few Pakistanis were questioning it.
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CosmicPathos
12-25-2012, 05:32 PM
LOL. is it you interpreting Islam through your modern lens of feminism and humanism in which you have grown up?

Read up history of Muslim medicine from Al Razi to Ibn Sina. It was all paternalistic. Somehow you know something more about Islam that these giants did not?
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جوري
12-25-2012, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
Al Razi to Ibn Sina
Ibn Sina was considered a heretic and not a Muslim scholar by any means even if he made great feats in medicine his isn't the brand of medicine which was practiced by the prophet if we're to become purists nor what is modern day!
and what makes you assume I haven't read his work?
I'll not take kindly to rude comments and presumptions after this!

best,
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CosmicPathos
12-25-2012, 05:41 PM
even al razi was a heretic. :)
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جوري
12-25-2012, 05:42 PM
As Imam shafi3 once said:

... قال الإمام الشافعي رحمة الله عليه

يخاطبني السفيه بكل قبح.....فأكره أن أكون له مجيبا
يزيد سفاهة وأزيد حلماً .....كعود زاده الإحراق طيبا..
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Abz2000
12-25-2012, 07:33 PM
Salamz,
It's quite entertaining when cosmic and bluebell clash :)
Things can get a bit dull otherwise.

Anyways, back to topic, I remember reading this comment by a taliban leader last time it happened:

"In the garb of these vaccination campaigns, the US and its allies are running their spying networks in Fata which has brought death and destruction on them in the form of drone strikes," the leaflet said.
http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/j...o-vaccinations.

These guys aren't dumb you know, they have the wisdom and capacity to lead huge tribes and groups of men, and see things from the ground, not on t.v.
When the frequency of drone strikes increase when vaccine workers turn up in the locality, and it becomes a pattern, it's not illogical for them to put two and two together and conclude that either the u.n branch is headed by a u.s asset.
Or that the CIA is getting it's assets to apply for these jobs and do their dirty work of supplying intel to the devil from the ground.
And it's been caught doing it in the past and they also mentioned that as a reason, and it is certainly a valid cause for concern:

"The leaflet raised the case of Shakil Afridi, the frontier doctor who ran a hepatitis vaccination campaign in Abbottabad as cover for a CIA effort to find intelligence about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.

Afridi, who has since been arrested and jailed by Pakistani authorities, provided important help in the hunt for the US's most wanted man, the former director of the CIA has said.
http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/j...o-vaccinations

So before we just look at it from the western government and media slant and parrot their twisted view, we should see how we might act in such a situation.

It is true that drones came with the un agency workers, and it is also true that drones killed more men, women, children and mujahideen defending Muslim lands from unjust, immoral and illegal invasions, than polio did in decades.

Let's think before we just join the kafir camp and take their slant on events.

And cashew, which way of life do you follow? The info you submitted on the forum says "Muslim",
But your comment:

Re: Polio programme put on hold in Pakistan
Now more lives will be scarred as we can't agree on how to deal with these Jihadis
......is enough to say, you either don't understand what the term "jihad" means and you've never actually read the Quran (otherwise you would have seen it mentioned dozens of times).
- or
You have seen it in the Quran and hate what Allah has revealed.

And before you use the word "we" make clear who you mean, you and the criminal American government,
or are you assuming you speak for everyone on this forum because you are not my advocate.
And if you don't mean you and the American government,
Pray tell me how you and those on the forum who are of your opinion, wish to go about "dealing with these jihadis", because I can assure you they have more courage than you and your keyboard warrior self who's either trolling or has serious al Walaa wal Baraa issues to deal with.

Take some courses if you're for real.
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syed_z
12-25-2012, 07:50 PM
Thanks for sharing that Brother Abz .... however I would like to tell that killing innocent workers is also not a right thing to go about this kind of issue....the blame falls entirely on the Pakistani law enforcement agencies who need to make sure that these polio workers are not agents working on behalf of some foreign intelligence services to track mujahideen groups in those areas......
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Urban Turban
01-09-2013, 05:35 PM
Haven't read the thread fully, but I wish to say there are two sides to a coin, there have been many many reports and since ages that Hindu terrorists groups in India use polio vaccinations to sterilize Muslims, simple Google search will get you many reports.

What to say about the Kuffar machinery in Pakistan, come on, who doesn't know Blackwater?
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