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hageos
12-20-2012, 03:50 AM
A trial court in Iran has issued its final verdict, ordering a Christian pastor to be put to death for leaving Islam and converting to Christianity, according to sources close to the pastor and his legal team.
Supporters fear Youcef Nadarkhani, a 34-year-old father of two who was arrested over two years ago on charges of apostasy, may now be executed at any time without prior warning, as death sentences in Iran may be carried out immediately or dragged out for years.
It is unclear whether Nadarkhani can appeal the execution order.
“The world needs to stand up and say that a man cannot be put to death because of his faith,” said Jordan Sekulow, executive director of The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ).
“This one case is not just about one execution. We have been able to expose the system instead of just letting one man disappear, like so many other Christians have in the past.”
It is also feared that Nadarkhani will be executed in retaliation as Iran endures crippling sanctions and international pressure in response to its nuclear agenda and rogue rhetoric. The number of executions in Iran has increased significantly in the last month.
“This is defiance,” Sekulow said. “They want to say they will carry out what they say they will do.”
The order to execute Nadarkhani came only days after lawmakers in Congress supported a resolution sponsored by Pennsylvania Rep. Joseph Pitts denouncing the apostasy charge and calling for his immediate release.
“Iran has become more isolated because of their drive for nuclear weapons, and the fundamentalist government has stepped up persecution of religious minorities to deflect criticism,” Pitts, a Republican, told FoxNews.com. “The persecuted are their own citizens, whose only crime is practicing their faith.”
The ACLJ has been a major driving force in keeping Nadarkhani’s case in the international spotlight. Many other advocacy groups and human rights organizations also have mounted global campaigns and petitions against the Iranian government, and experts credit Nadarkhani’s international support for keeping him alive.
The ACLJ recently launched a Twitter campaign to publicize Nadarkhani’s case, asking participants to dedicate a daily tweet to “Tweet for Youcef,” stating the number of days he has been imprisoned (currently 863) and ending the tweet with “ViaOfficialACLJ,” sending readers back to the organization’s website where they could learn more about his case.
Tweets have reached 157 countries and over 400,000 people.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and 89 members of Congress, along with the European Union, France, Great Britain, Mexico and Germany, have condemned Iran for arresting Nadarkhani and have called for his quick release.
Nadarkhani was arrested in October 2009 and was tried and found guilty of apostasy by a lower court in Gilan, a province in Rasht. He was then given verbal notification of an impending death-by-hanging sentence.
His lawyers appealed the decision under the premise that Nadarkhani was never a Muslim at the age of majority, and the case was sent to Iran’s Supreme Court, which upheld the lower court’s decision of execution, provided it could be proven that he had been a practicing Muslim from the age of adulthood, 15 in Islamic law, to age 19, which was when he converted.
The lower court then ruled that Nadarkhani had not practiced Islam during his adult life but still upheld the apostasy charge because he was born into a Muslim family.
The court then gave Nadarkhani the opportunity to recant, as the law requires a man to be given three chances to recant his beliefs and return to Islam.
His first option was to convert back to Islam. When he refused, he was asked to declare Muhammad a prophet, and still he declined.
Iran’s judiciary had delayed in issuing a final verdict, fearing the decision would have far-reaching political implications.
Sources say Nadarkhani has been advised by family members, lawyers and members of his church to remain silent throughout his ordeal, out of fear that authorities may use his statements against him, a strategy commonly employed by the regime


Read more foxnews.com/world/2012/02/22/iran-court-convicts-christian-pastor-convert-to-death/#ixzz2FYnwrgmy
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hageos
12-20-2012, 03:53 AM
i mean no offense only seaking knowledge. thank you. peace.
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جوري
12-20-2012, 03:53 AM
I'd say Christianity is indeed a transgression against God, but unfortunately for you, you're barking up the wrong tree. You should take this out with the Iranian Govt. where they practice their own brand of Islam and kill traditional Muslims for preaching. I'd say it is a gimmick on both ends so not sure what you're hoping for here?

best,
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hageos
12-20-2012, 04:01 AM
as stated above hoping for someone more knowledgeable in the path of islam to show me the truth of the matter. and also as stated above no offense intended or gimmiks intended. question : does iran have a blasphemy law, and if it does, does it intend to execute those found guilty of blasphemy as stated by the blasphemy law ? once again please do not misunderstand me i am not here to troll or to war. i am only seeking knowledge. peace.
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YusufNoor
12-20-2012, 04:09 AM
over 1 million Iranians have been executed by the US for being Muslim. many, many thousand Afghans have have been executed by US for being Muslims. Israel slaughters Palestinians for being Muslim.

where is your outrage?

Iraq is not Muslim. it is Shii'a.

but you are still talking about 1 guy.

maybe if you write to President Obama, he can give you the names of all the Muslims that he has ordered killed.

then, one by one, you can write him a letter asking why he ordered each one of them killed because they are Muslim.

when you have received your answers, come back and ask this question again. maybe we will feel like trying to find the answer then.

until then,

peace
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جوري
12-20-2012, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
over 1 million Iranians have been executed by the US for being Muslim. many, many thousand Afghans have have been executed by US for being Muslims. Israel slaughters Palestinians for being Muslim.

where is your outrage?

Iraq is not Muslim. it is Shii'a.

but you are still talking about 1 guy.

maybe if you write to President Obama, he can give you the names of all the Muslims that he has ordered killed.

then, one by one, you can write him a letter asking why he ordered each one of them killed because they are Muslim.

when you have received your answers, come back and ask this question again. maybe we will feel like trying to find the answer then.

until then,

peace
Ditto that.. hopefully our new visitor will reflect on these wise words and find an appropriate medium to vent out his ire.
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hageos
12-20-2012, 04:23 AM
haha your trolling me by saying venting and also side stepping the question. the fact is you either have the answer and withholding purposly or you do not have the answer. just keep it real.
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hageos
12-20-2012, 04:38 AM
well first of all YOUR bad attitude. second of all YOUR trolling me. thats what made it difficult to understand. if you cannot handle these types of questions then leave them alone entirely least someone getst he wrong idea. or the right idea, which, in fact, in this isolated post, is still a mystery! re-reading your initial post i have a better understanding what your point is, but the style in which it was written threw me off. i forgive you. in gods love. now please if you cannot answer a question intelligently and with scriptral evidence then please stop posting hate on my topic and going outside of topic into other things that this topic is not supposed to be about. if you continue to flame i will ignore you. this is my second question, and thank you for showing me this is a sunni exclusive forums. i was not aware of that.

question #2
without the article of the country and its practices andits beliefs. is christianity punishable by death by sunni muslim standards in a muslim court or in other words a court based in sharria law

i do not seek conflict. i only seek answers from the most reliable source i have been reccomended. peace.
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YusufNoor
12-20-2012, 04:42 AM
Originally Posted by hageos
i was reccomended here by a friend in islam because the site i was going to was not a good site for knowldge in islam. but based on your reactions id only have to assume christianity is punishable by death. you are one the worst representatives of islam i have ever seen on the internet besides the "jihad jihad jihadists" that are actually zionist's.shame on you. shame on you.
your country, and mine, punishes Muslims by death. by the hundreds of thousands.

we have no control over Iraqi government.

i would like to know why this 1 man is more important to you, in a situation beyond our control, than the many, many hundreds of thousands being murdered because they are Muslim?

it seems like a fair, logical question.

apostasy, can at times be treated as treason. if an American moved to Afghanistan after he became Muslim, President Obama will send a drone to kill him without a trial.

please tell me why in Shii'ite Iraq, someone gets a trial, but America affords no trial. why? which, in your opinion is worse?

i don't see a post with all caps. i definitely don't see the "J" word in my posts.

if you are seeking knowledge about Islam, i can tell you

all heartfelt and true thankfulness and praise is due the One True God, Who is the Only One worthy of Praise. He is the Creator, Provider, Cherisher, Sustainer and Healer of all that has been created. He is the Owner of the Day of Judgment. to Him alone, do we give worship and to Him alone to we seek guidance and assistance.

the He that we use for the One True God is gender neutral. God is not a him. He alone has His attributes and there in none like Him. He is Eternal. He is neither someone's offspring, nor does He have offspring.

is there something more about Islam you would like to know?

peace
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جوري
12-20-2012, 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by hageos
well first of all YOUR bad attitude.
Are we going by your standards?
these standards?


Originally Posted by hageos
you are one the worst representatives of islam
Originally Posted by hageos
haha your trolling me
Originally Posted by hageos
"jihad jihad jihadists
Originally Posted by hageos
shame on you
Originally Posted by hageos
second of all YOUR trolling me
in what way are we trolling you?

Originally Posted by hageos
if you cannot handle these types of questions then leave them alone entirely least someone getst he wrong idea.
We've taken care of your queries in the appropriate manner, we can't be faulted if you don't like the replies given or are looking for one particular type of reply!

Originally Posted by hageos
i forgive you. in gods love
Your 'forgivness' and/or approval means zero to nil to me but does showcase the paranoid schizophrenic personalities that many christians seem to have!

Originally Posted by hageos
now please if you cannot answer a question intelligently and with scriptral evidence then please stop posting hate on my topic and going outside of topic into other things that this topic is not supposed to be about.
If you want to look up the laws of Apostacy you can visit our useful index thread, there's no point derailing us in a side query that has to do with a sovereign nation or their particular laws!

Originally Posted by hageos
if you continue to flame i will ignore you.
We'll have to hold you to that promise!

Originally Posted by hageos
is christianity punishable by death by sunni muslim standards in a muslim court or in other words a court based in sharria law
Given that many Christians live in Muslim countries I am not sure where you get the balls to ask such a Q. Do you live in a bubble or enjoy drawing satisfaction out of overly simplistic conclusions?


best,
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hageos
12-20-2012, 04:52 AM
i have read your cryptic post and am getting that you are saying yes christianity is punishable by death in the context of the question. if i am wrong please correct me yusufnoor. this one man is important to me because i need to know what a islamic dominated world will be like to me. i am a christian and will not deny my belief even unto death. but i cannot tell you that islamci deaths are not a concern to me. there are only two in the world that stand against tyranny and that is christianity and islam. and that is because we do not fear death in service of god. that is my belief. a secular world is controlable because they have nothing in the after life to look forward to. their rewards are here on earth. our rewards are there in heaven. christianity is martyred by pop culture everyday. pop culture has poisoned the church. while islam dies by the sword christianity dies by the stars. anyways. thank you for taking the time to look at my post. peace.
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hageos
12-20-2012, 04:54 AM
just curios is there an ignore button or some kind of equivalent on this site ?
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YusufNoor
12-20-2012, 05:15 AM
brother, let me give you some advice on the dear Sister.

if every single Muslim male had the fire and love in his heart for Islam as she does, and used that love to conform to the manners of our beloved Prophet, pbuh, there would be no need for Paradise in the afterlife. we would have it here.

a Muslim point of view is VERY different than you might imagine. you can only imagine a world ruled by Muslims, NOT Islam. Islam is a thing of wonder and beauty. as Muslims, we are unfit to show you it's real Glory.

Jesus, pbuh, left this planet at a young age. if you ever wondered what he would be like if the whole world was out to kill him, learn about Muhammad,pbuh, in his time in Mecca. if you wondered what he would be like as a human head of state, learn about Muhammad, bpuh, in Medina.

the similarities are amazing!

it might help you if you consider Christianity in the time of the reformation. millions of people having the same religion yet killing each other by the thousands because their views differed. it is not the same state, but it feels pretty close.

you must attempt to view many Muslims in the light that they are reacting to atrocities committed by the west. they may react incorrectly, but none of their doings are, by any means, of the enormity that that the west does.

like i stressed earlier, in shii'a Iraq, there is a trial. WE kill without trial. is either just? should Muslims want to be ruled by the west? AT LEAST in Iraq, you get a trial.

can you see the point i am making?

peace
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glo
12-20-2012, 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by hageos
just curios is there an ignore button or some kind of equivalent on this site ?
I don't know if the ignore function is available to new members (you become a full member at 50 posts), but to ignore other posters, try clicking on their linked name on the top left of the post, which should take you into their profile. Then click 'Add to Ignore list'.

Welcome to the forum, anyway.
You may find that your question is quite a tricky one to ask. As Skye said, this is a question for the Iranian government.

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YusufNoor
12-20-2012, 05:30 AM
brother, our western media is *****.

i see you are in Texas, let me post a few vids by my favorite journalists. your first reaction might be "omg, she's a commie pinko nutjob"
BUT, people are flocking to be interviewed by her because she is, at least, fearless:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_g2SXWH95M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKsCRIV3Mtc













most of those are short. please take a peek.

peace
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hageos
12-20-2012, 06:49 AM
i am not discussing the sister in islam that is called sky. i cannot ignore as a limited member but i did report her post that is the best i can do. but either way, and even if she does not care for it, forgive in loving kindness is my path. i know a little about christian reformation and i would have been martyred along with my fellow reformists. i can link vids if you would like. just as many muslims died in the fitnahs that followed your beloved prophets death. i am no denomination nor am i any religon. i am a born again christian and nothing can change that. but do not mistake me. i have love for my friends in islam as i know they have love for me. i have a few that i have talked with for more then a year now and continue talking to and we have shared insights and knowledges and testimonies and it has given me a beautiful truth about islam. but sadly i know that in islam and in judaism there is a horrible truth of a concept of global domination. yes i understand this is a tricky question as many would be offended and i am grateful for every kind word and every knowldege shared. thank you. there is not concept of global domination in christianity excpet for when jesus comes down and he will be doing all the work for us. it is known to us that satan is far to strong in this earth for us to fight him alone. so we must fully rely on god.

but anyways this is becoming preaching which is not the intention of my post. and i am not a preacher i am only a dedicated christian sharing my path with those dedicated in islam. i have seen a stark difference in the muslim reverts as opposed to the muslims whos father was muslim and whos father's father was muslim. in my studies i have seen that those in islam that arabic is not their native tounge tend to focus on the more peaceful aspect of islam then those who have muslim ancestory going back gnerations. this is just my experience. i will watch your vids now brother yusufnoor thank you. and thank you glo. peace.
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Signor
12-20-2012, 09:36 AM
Greetings Hageos,how you are doing Man?

I've found something for you:

In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:

1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?


Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.


Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.
So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.
For more reading,you can view this thread
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Hulk
12-20-2012, 10:06 AM
Who is Jesus(peace be upon him)?
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Abz2000
12-20-2012, 10:24 AM
I think we are being a little unfair to the poster in that we are not directly answering the q in context.
I can only post what I know and this is not to be seen as a complete or perfect answer.

There were a few occasions during the time of the prophet pbuh himself where people apostatised and werenot punished, even though he was able to do so.
Some also came back to Islam later.
Umm habiba's husband was not assassinated despite many devout Muslims being ready to carry out any command given them by the prophet pbuh.

Then there were the cases during intense friction with the disbelievers where an apostate would cause huge harm to the fledgling community.
The prophet pbuh is reported to have said, kill the one who leaves the way.
Though he didn't always apply it. (maybe depending on the situation and damage the person would do) God knows.
I take it you're aware that the maximum penalty for desertion from the u.s army is .... Death..... But it has been seen that this was applied according to circumstances.
Well, in the small Muslim community of medina where they were surrounded by enemies, some of whom were supported by quraish, every able male was a fighter, and to desert at times like those was considered dangerous.

You may also be aware of some of the blatant lies against their country some asylum seekers tell and how countries like the u.s and Britain use it as testimony and a context for aggression/"intervention".

I personally don't know the apostate and the damage he might have been doing so I won't comment on what justufication iran's government may or may not have, but I can assure you that they are under attack from enemies within and without.

Also research pat tilman. See how they used deception and murder instead of openly stating their reasons for his murder.
Peace
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جوري
12-20-2012, 11:51 AM
A christian in Saudi accused of thievery, converts to Islam after a non-guilty verdict which he was sure would not be in his favor due to his religion:




thumbnailphp?file           118990156&ampsizearticle medium -
تسبَّب حُكْم قضائي، صدر من أحد قضاة المحكمة الجزئية في أبها بالمملكة العربية السعودية أمس الأول في دخول وافد هندي الإسلام، بعد أن كان يعتنق الديانة المسيحية. وتعود تفاصيل اعتناق الوافد الإسلام إلى توقيفه في قضية سرقة، اتهمه بها مواطن؛ حيث عُرض الوافد على القاضي أمس، ولم يجد القاضي أي بيّنة موصلة في الادعاء عقب اطلاعه على ملف القضية، إضافة إلى ملاحظته أن الدعوى تعسفية؛ ما دفع القاضي إلى صرف النظر عن القضية والأمر بالإفراج عن المتهم، وأُفهم المتهم بأن حكم صرف النظر عن الدعوى وأمر الإفراج عنه جاء نتيجة لعدم ثبوت الإدانة عليه. وبعد خروج الوافد من مكتب القاضي طلب من الموظفين مقابلة القاضي مرة أخرى؛ فخرج القاضي لمقابلته؛ فأعلن الوافد رغبته في الإسلام، مشيراً إلى أنه عند حضوره المحكمة كان على يقين بأن القاضي سيحكم ضده بما أن ديانته مسيحية قبل أن يفاجأ بالحكم الذي يبيّن سماحة الدين الإسلامي وعدله. القاضي الذي استجاب للعامل الوافد وأنطقه الشهادتين داخل المحكمة، حسب سبق وسط سعادة وفرح عدد من الموظفين والمراجعين


http://www.almesryoon.com/permalink/69550.html





This is the justice, and kindness that is Islam- One that judges by what is truth not one that judges out of hate as we see in most American trials against Muslims (in fact if they're lucky enough to get a trial and not just droned like Al'Awlaqi and his teenage son' or those in Gitmo or those who are sentenced to 17 yrs in prison for 'thought crimes', like Tariq Mehanna. It is because of this that Jews and Christians found their safest haven in the Muslim world long before the West started to talk about human rights and freedom of religion. “Jews familiar with history might note that from Spain to Baghdad, it was the Islamic world that offered the Jews of the Middle Ages a fair degree of toleration -- not the Christian West’, so tells us Richard Cohen in an article in the Post.

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YusufNoor
12-20-2012, 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by hageos
i am not discussing the sister in islam that is called sky. i cannot ignore as a limited member but i did report her post that is the best i can do. but either way, and even if she does not care for it, forgive in loving kindness is my path.

please, one of the points i am trying to make to you is that what happens to fellow Muslims is of significance to other Muslims. we live in a world where Muslims are killed just for being Muslim. to defend them with words is not dishonorable. to verbally attack those that kill Muslims is vastly superior than saying that my belly is full, i don't care. anger and a broken heart over the current state of the Muslim ummah is the very LEAST that someone can do.

i know a little about christian reformation and i would have been martyred along with my fellow reformists. i can link vids if you would like.

IF you had an education maybe. i'm am not picking on Christians by referencing the reformation. i am using it as sort of a parallel to the condition of Muslims. i'm saying that people follow their leaders in faith. by doing that, people commit atrocities. it is attributed to religion, but it is the fault of the leaders that taught false teachings and the people for accepting them. which reform group would you have chosen? Zwingli? Calvin? Luther? was religious doctrine or locality that made the difference. oh, and i have quite a collection of College lectures on the subject.

just as many muslims died in the fitnahs that followed your beloved prophets death.

the fitnah offers great understanding to the mindset of Muslims in a time of distress. had i known that you were aware, i might have used that example instead. Ali ibn Abee Taalib is considered a true Khaliph, yet many, many, good and true Muslims fought against him! astargfirullah! we are more like the followers of Mu'awwiyah than Ali. does that make sense?

i am no denomination nor am i any religon. i am a born again christian and nothing can change that. but do not mistake me. i have love for my friends in islam as i know they have love for me. i have a few that i have talked with for more then a year now and continue talking to and we have shared insights and knowledges and testimonies and it has given me a beautiful truth about islam. but sadly i know that in islam and in judaism there is a horrible truth of a concept of global domination. yes i understand this is a tricky question as many would be offended and i am grateful for every kind word and every knowldege shared. thank you. there is not concept of global domination in christianity excpet for when jesus comes down and he will be doing all the work for us. it is known to us that satan is far to strong in this earth for us to fight him alone. so we must fully rely on god.

THIS could be a whole thread. let me first defend my Jewish brethren. there is NO global dominance is Judaism. NONE. in Zionism, yes. but Zionism is the result of Christians believing that Judea is the withered fig tree of the Gospels, and that it must be restored in order for the second coming. this belief has been used by Zionists to make Westerners support Israel no matter what. but it is not restoring Israel, it is creating a new one. the new "Jews" are European and Slavs, NOT Semitic Jews.

i don't have the scholarship necessary to give you the Islamic perspective, thus i don't know, is the proper answer. i don't know if it is Islam that is supposed to be global, or Shariah. it's a big difference.

at this moment in time, it is the US that is the Imperialist Vulture on the planet. it IS doing it in the guise of Christianity, so i think we have disagreement there as well. a new thread might be needed to discuss that. Corporate Vultures prey on Christian sympathies to get support for their world domination. it isn't Christianity per se, but it is done in the name of Christianity. i will accept that it is a secular Christianity and not a Jesus based Christianity.




but anyways this is becoming preaching which is not the intention of my post. and i am not a preacher i am only a dedicated christian sharing my path with those dedicated in islam. i have seen a stark difference in the muslim reverts as opposed to the muslims whos father was muslim and whos father's father was muslim. in my studies i have seen that those in islam that arabic is not their native tounge tend to focus on the more peaceful aspect of islam then those who have muslim ancestory going back gnerations. this is just my experience. i will watch your vids now brother yusufnoor thank you. and thank you glo. peace.

peace,

your last point is crucial. very few are Shii'a by choice, or Hanafi by choice, or Shaafi'i by choice. or even Iranian or Iraqi by choice. EVERYWHERE, Muslims have allowed variation into their religion. i once had a Somalian tell me it was very important for me to learn Somali in order for me to understand Islam! he meant no harm, that was his belief. i have had more than a few Somalis ask to teach me Islam; after a few minutes discussion, they apologized and ask me to teach them. you see, i have an advantage, i am learning Islam ONLY. that is much easier than learning all the cultural baggage that now weighs down many Muslims. i had a Sudanese friend caution me when he saw me on my constant reading of translations and Tafsir. he said "be careful, you know more than most of them". i had a Somali wife; i would explain a few mistakes she was making based on certain scholars. she would say, "please brother, i'm born Muslim, i know more than you." later, she would see the particular lecture and collapse in disbelief. she would then apologize. i would tell her, "Sister, when i am giving you my opinion, i say that. when i am telling you a scholar says, i am telling you what he said"

you cannot see Muslims in the light of Islam. you must view in a cultural way AND, most importantly, as a REACTIONARY way. Muslims are dying for their faith. they are making dawah to those that are killing them. Iran is turning into a nuclear waste land. the CIA in Afghanistan isn't there to promote democracy, it is there to secure the poppy fields. imagine all of those things plus drones killing hundreds right here in the US. would you be angry? would you be offended? would you even still be alive? what about your family? how would you feel if they are raped and murdered simply because they are American? would you react? would you take up arms? if you took up arms, you would not be called a Patriot, you would be called a terrorist!

think about that...

peace
Reply

YusufNoor
12-20-2012, 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I don't know if the ignore function is available to new members (you become a full member at 50 posts), but to ignore other posters, try clicking on their linked name on the top left of the post, which should take you into their profile. Then click 'Add to Ignore list'.

Welcome to the forum, anyway.
You may find that your question is quite a tricky one to ask. As Skye said, this is a question for the Iranian government.

Are you wanting to know whether converting from Islam to Christianity is blasphemous? Then I might guess that a lot of Muslims would think so.
But if you are asking if converting to Christianity should be punishable by death, then certainly the vast majority of Muslims I know would say no.

It's a tricky question to ask though. In the end there are different interpretations and the answer might depend on which scholar you ask.
:sl:

let me start by saying, my fever broke. i still have fluid in my lungs, but i feel a whole better. just sick as hell, not sicker than hell! :D

A problem here, not THE problem, but it's pretty big. "Shii'a clerics", as i know it, they want 1) all non Muslims dead, then 2) all non Shii'a Muslims dead. this is NOT the Iraqi people! outside of Israel, Iraq has the most western population in the gulf area! they were ruled by CIA, MI-6 and Mossad for decades! in the NW, you CANNOT tell the difference between a Shii'a and an American! we look THE SAME! the Cauc in Caucasian is the Caucasus mountains. look just north of Iran, what do you see? Shii'a people here do NOT tell you who they hate; they only might tell you who they love. in order: Allah, Muhammad, pbuh, Ali, ra. that is pretty much all they know. you don't see them in Arabic dress, you don't see them at the Masjid. oh, and they also love peace. the ONLY identify mark, other than maybe a name, i have ever seen is the gold chain around the neck. if you are Muslim, you automatically discount that person as Muslim. HOWEVER, ask to see the chain! it says Allah in Arabic! you have to learn to remove the stupid look on your face as quick as you can, snap back to reality and re-greet them!

as for the clerics, well, non Muslims are clearly the "enemy". declaring yourself non Muslim is similar to being Anwar Al Awlaki in America. he didn't get a trial even though he was a citizen. they followed him with drones in Yemen until they killed him. NO TRIAL! the next week, drones were sent to kill his son. NO TRIAL! his son was not killed because of his beliefs, his dad was. the son was killed because someday he MIGHT, YES MIGHT, form views similar to his father! no crime done by him, no crime intended by him, just that he MIGHT someday hold anti-American views. the son was not killed by some radical Shii'a nutjob. he was death was personally ordered by the President of the United States, one Barak Obama. and to repeat, NO TRIAL!

in a similar vein, those clerics only see "the enemy". apostasy to them means, some foreigner, READ CIA, MOSSAD, MI-6, got you. you MUST be an enemy agent. it CAN'T be apostasy in Islam! WHY? Shii'ism IS APOSTASY in Islam!

that is why this is a difficult thing to explain.

peace
Reply

MissK
12-20-2012, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by hageos
i mean no offense only seaking knowledge. thank you. peace.
I didn't see anything wrong with your question. A few people on here are bitter (I'm sure they feel they have their reasons) and like to respond negatively to posts without ever offering any sound answers. So try to ignore them. I can't so I will soon be deleting my account. I'm sure that will make them happy.

Nevertheless, I agree with some of the posts (where people answered you rather than just being negative) here. Try not to use what Shia Muslims are doing as an example of Islam. Better yet, it's not always wise to use its execution as a good example, but rather look at the scripture (and hadith, if you want) for yourself, and see what it actually says. There should be no compulsion in Islam. Threatening to put someone to death for converting...i'd call that compulsion if I ever saw it, so its not a good example of what Islam truly calls for.
Reply

جوري
12-20-2012, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by MissK
I can't so I will soon be deleting my account. I'm sure that will make them happy.
You can't delete an account but you can ask for it to be disabled indefinitely and you'd accomplish that fast by writing a mod or admin!

best,
Reply

YusufNoor
12-20-2012, 10:10 PM
Quote Originally Posted by glo

I don't know if the ignore function is available to new members (you become a full member at 50 posts), but to ignore other posters, try clicking on their linked name on the top left of the post, which should take you into their profile. Then click 'Add to Ignore list'.

Welcome to the forum, anyway.
You may find that your question is quite a tricky one to ask. As Skye said, this is a question for the Iranian government.

Are you wanting to know whether converting from Islam to Christianity is blasphemous? Then I might guess that a lot of Muslims would think so.
But if you are asking if converting to Christianity should be punishable by death, then certainly the vast majority of Muslims I know would say no.
:sl:

look at 2 surah's in English, Al Fatihah and Al Ikhlas:

In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds -
The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful,
Sovereign of the Day of Recompense.
It is You we worship and You we ask for help.
Guide us to the straight path -
The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."
if you truly understand and believe that and you CHOSE Islam, you can't really "undo" it. it's near impossible. especially to Christianity? if you knew and understood Tawhid, you CAN'T have 3 gods, be it 3 that are 1, or 1 that is 3. you can never have believed it, or been really unsure; but you cannot believe in the Oneness and then not believe it. any inkling of doubt is prohibited by those verses. it doesn't make sense logically. what is logical is that an individual NEVER studied Tawhid, thus never had a firm grasp.

on the other hand, if religion to you is just an abstract thing that you need and you just want one, you can swap titles. it didn't matter in the first place. that's why it confuses a lot of Muslims who stuff about religions that isn't logical. just because your family goes back 5 centuries as "Muslim" doesn't mean that you understand Islam. if you KNOW that last 4 verse Surah, ANYTHING that runs counter to it rings false. ANYTHING!

thus you can't reject it. you CAN reject family, or tribe or maybe nation, political philosophy, even other Muslims, but NOT Tawhid.

thus, if someone leaves Islam, odds are they are leaving "something else" or accepting something else, ie, money, power, spouse, acclaim. someone who KNOWS Tawhid, values it more than those other things. it is Tawhid that is the foundation of Islam, the 1st and chief pillar.

trinity is HARD to explain, Tawhid is simple. it is the only logical explanation of monotheism, BAR NONE!!!

if you hear "apostasy", something fishy is going on OR it was fishy in the 1st place.

when someone "leaves" Islam, they can only do that if they never had it to start with. if they didn't, it is easy to suspect espionage; but more likely a girlfriend or some free handouts.

make sense?

ma salaama
Reply

sister herb
12-21-2012, 01:04 AM
Salam alaykum

What if we stop thinking what others do against God/Allah like "is christianity blasphemy against God" questions but start to think what we do for God/Allah and for our fellow humans? Do we help them to find the right path to the true religion (what is the true religion to us as muslims) or not? Would here some better way to show to them compassion and care of Islam?

:hmm:
Reply

Insaanah
12-21-2012, 11:10 AM
Originally Posted by hageos
is christianity blasphemy against God ?
Answering just this question, as asked, this is what Allah says in the Qur'an:

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son."
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous.
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant. (19:88-93)

Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "Allah hath begotten a son":
No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying; what they say is nothing but falsehood. (18:4-5)

Peace.
Reply

Dagless
12-21-2012, 12:33 PM
Originally Posted by hageos
A trial court in Iran has issued its final verdict, ordering a Christian pastor to be put to death for leaving Islam and converting to Christianity, according to sources close to the pastor and his legal team.
He was released a while back.

Originally Posted by hageos
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and 89 members of Congress, along with the European Union, France, Great Britain, Mexico and Germany, have condemned Iran for arresting Nadarkhani and have called for his quick release.
I think most in this thread are annoyed with the hypocrisy of these stories rather than you asking questions (which is valid). Hillary makes out like the voice of reason when in actuality supports pretty much the same types of things. Guantanamo for example.

Originally Posted by hageos
Read more foxnews.com/world/2012/02/22/iran-court-convicts-christian-pastor-convert-to-death/#ixzz2FYnwrgmy
Fox News isn't really a news source.

This is the best explanation to the apostasy question I've come across:

Reply

YusufNoor
12-21-2012, 01:33 PM
:sl:

very cool for posting Dr Bilal, shame the US won't let him in this country. while bayah may be to someone else, Dr Philips is generally the one i look at to clarify issues of fiqh. cuz i have to understand things in English.

that said, i think we should look at the seeming hypocrisy of certain questions. the asker MAY not even be aware, but we should still try to put perspective in the answers. if the US can kill innocent people just because of their age or what they might think in the future WITHOUT A TRIAL and this not taken into consideration on questions of justice, it is borderline absurd feign injustice when someone actually gets his day in court. if you had to take out scales and weigh the justice system of Shii's Iran vrs alleged FREE WESTERN SECULAR DEMOCRATIC AMERICA, in cases of Muslim majority treating Christian minority against Christian majority treating Muslim minority. IT APPEARS that Shii'a Iraq wins in a total no contest knockout!

as horrifically unbelievable as that might seem to Westerners, SUCH AS ME, it appears to be true. thus, when questions imply the seeming injustice of a Muslim government, even a Shii'a one, honesty suggests that we question that supposition. it IS part of the answer.

some Americans are still brainwashed into thinking that the USA is all about freedom and justice. every Tuesday, the US President signs off on a list of innocent human beings to be targeted by murder drones. not a whimper of objection from US citizens, but when someone goes to court for violating key precepts of a Nation government, they act shocked and indignant. the fact the the original poster doesn't see this, doesn't negate that it is ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY ABSURD!

IT SHOULD BE MIND FREEKINGLY OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WITH A BRAIN AND CONSCIENCE! yet, somehow, in the US, it doesn't even dawn on them?

It's complete and utter rubbish!

if we don't try to wake them up, who will?????????

ma salaama

thanks Mod for edit!:D
Reply

hageos
12-21-2012, 03:03 PM
dear yusufnoor please calm your anger towards me. i am not who you are saying i am/assuming i am. i have taken much time to think this over and have re-read things 3 times in order to understand things fully. this is a quik reply i intend to reply in what i have found in the 2 pages so far. peace.
Reply

جوري
12-21-2012, 03:18 PM
I am curious, as you often throw accusations toward members here and few have been spared; Which part of Br. Yusuf's post did you perceive as anger toward you?

best,
Reply

YusufNoor
12-21-2012, 03:24 PM
dang bro,
i ain't mad at you in the least!
i'm speaking to the situation as a whole.
i include MYSELF in this.
6 months ago i thought achmewhat'shisname was a nutjub.
now, it's looking totally the opposite.
i'm mad at AMERICA!
i mean, seriously, Iran is the voice of reason?
take a gander at my posts. do i appear to be the least bit pro-Shii'a?
granted, we may just be dealing with "appearances"
but for the US to even appear to be that much less just...
how did it come to this?
it comes that way because we accept what we are told.
there is "telling" in asking questions, bias, if you will.
it NEEDS to be addressed as well.
300,000,000 Americans have it wrong,
it's time to view things different.
don't take it personal
but if you agree, then what do you do about it?
gotta start somewhere.
you start, by NOT accepting the bias.
peace
Reply

hageos
12-21-2012, 03:32 PM
so what i have found here, and i appreciaite all that have contributed to the information, is that execution is reserved mainly towards islam. so i wonder is there a separation between apostacy and blasphemy ? like is leaving islam after already converting or being born into a islamic family and then leaving apostacy and christianity is blasphemy ? and its pretty clear christianity is considered blasphemy in islams opinion from this topic.

yes and i know i typo its gonna happen. its gonna continue to happen. i apologize. thank you.

and also im understanding that there is a lot of frustration to christians because U.N. is parading a fake christainity with guns to oppress and martyr islam. so naturally islam would look at me as if i were an enemy not bothering to ask what i thought of islam. so i may be martyred as well if i went to a country that was islamic law dominated for my beliefs. maybe not by the officail law of that country but by the residents themselves. but i would like to point out one thing. the most reccent riots of islam were not against the chuh as far as i could tell. it was mainly against the U.S. political structure. the embassy. that is a major point. i think islam is becoming wiser in who their enemy is. christianity is not the enemy of islam. but that brings up one more point: it is arrogant to say none in the history of islam have left islam or will leave islam that are educated in islam. i cannot use myself as an example because i was never truly dedicated to islam. when i took shahada i could not take muhhamad as my prophet seriously and asked god why. i prayed for guidance and was guided back to christianity. but as far as the pastor in iran. it is completely possible for one to make a conversion if given proper knowledge of what christianity is and what it is centered on. so him leaving islam to pursue what he felt was a better faith in god is not out of the question as long as god led him to that faith. it is very important to ask god what you are supposed to do before doing it. maybe the apostacy law is flawed in itself. maybe the blashpemy law is flawed as well. i am no scholar either. i am not a follower in islam either. but i can tell you i would enjoy a law that opresses the pagan witches and athiests. so i can kind of see where it comes from. ya i wont make any secret about that. this new age stuff really gets on my nerves on so many different levels.

the next point is that it is up to the law of the country if execution is administered to christians for their beliefs.

finaly there is much talk of islamic martyrdom. please let me adress this once again. i would not have one single islamic practitioner be martyred unless in battle against dajjal. which i would prefer to be martyred in battle against dajjal myself. who could deny any man that ? but i am forming an opinion that if islam from the middle east were to spread here to the west it would be by force, and i would be martyred for my beliefs in my front yard even though i would not be the one to bear arms against them. and im pretty sure that everyone that does not belive in execution on that level that is in islam would be forced to support the executions unless they themselves be executed as non-belivers or deserters. just as a fake christian'd U.N. soldier would be forced to kill or be executed for deserting.

this is all messed up stuff but it is the world we live in and once again thank you for your contributions.
Reply

YusufNoor
12-21-2012, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by hageos
so what i have found here, and i appreciaite all that have contributed to the information, is that execution is reserved mainly towards islam. so i wonder is there a separation between apostacy and blasphemy ? like is leaving islam after already converting or being born into a islamic family and then leaving apostacy and christianity is blasphemy ? and its pretty clear christianity is considered blasphemy in islams opinion from this topic.
this is what my long, rambling posts are attempting to explain.
Islam is best understood in Arabic. Tawhid deals with the Oneness of Allah. that is why i tried to explain it.
the nearest term i can think of for blasphemy is shirk. shirk is ANYTHING that violates Tawhid.
examples:
saying Jesus is the son of God violates Tawhid-Allah begets not, nor is He begotten
saying Jesus IS God violates Tawhid-Say, He is Allah, al samid the One and Only God
same with trinity
saying Jesus created the world violates Tawhid-Alhamdulillahi Raabil Alamin: Raabil Alamin is creator and much more.

in English, shirk gets translated "associates partners with Allah" it IS a truthful translation, but real clumsy for us English first folks. that is why i gave examples of Tawhid first.
shirk the THE unforgivable sin, you exit monotheism when you do it.
apostasy involves shirk, and is centered on shirk,eg, you no longer believe in Tawhid.
apostasy is a decision to exit monotheism, and is in itself a type of shirk. Allah is Creator and Lawgiver, thus you are rejecting God as lawgiver. you are then going to follow someone else's law. that is shirk. A) you don't recognize Allah as Lawgiver B) you actually follow something else. putting that something else in the place of Allah is shirk.
is this understandable?

peace
Reply

YusufNoor
12-21-2012, 04:07 PM
please watch and rewatch this video

Reply

sister herb
12-21-2012, 08:41 PM
I just read article what was written by emeritus bishop from my country about situation in the Middle East and religions in there. He wrote that religious leaders from Islam, Judaism and Christianity have kept years talking together, trying to find similarities from those three religions, not thinking what are different and of they mind nations in the Middle east should create similar union like what European Union is - for give everyone there security and protect and stop keeping alive idea that we are enemies together.

Those religious leaders found things which are similar for all those three religions like peace, justice, forgiveness and reconciliation.

Can´t we here try the same and build the bridges together?
Reply

YusufNoor
12-21-2012, 09:29 PM
:sl:

please don't assume we are NOT trying to build bridges.
sometimes you have remove some boulders in order to set your foundation.
in a garden, sometimes you have to weed.
with wheat, you have to take out the chafe.
when you make mayonnaise, you mix oil and eggs,
but you still have to beat them!
if you drop an egg shell in your cake mix,
you stop and take it out.

if someone asks you if your mother is still in prison.
you don't answer no; you tell them the question is incorrect.

there is an implication of injustice as part of the question. it is a bias.
if we remove all of the extraneous stuff from the question,
we can seek to answer it

there is a very short answer to the question, "is christianity blasphemy against God ? "
"technically" yes.

does that answer teach you anything?
do you now know why it is?

but to answer, "like is leaving islam after already converting or being born into a islamic family and then leaving apostacy and christianity is blasphemy ?"
the answer about being born into a family may even be impossible to answer. it is a hard question.

it might seem ridiculous, in the west, that someone went to court over this.
now, in the west, courts are ridiculous.

again, the US is killing Muslims just for being Muslims WITHOUT A TRIAL.
yet the bias is that Iran is doing something unjust.
NOT the original poster's bias, but WHY do you think FAUX News covers this instead of all the innocent people being killed by murder drones?
they are trying to sway public opinion.
i am a Muslim. i am fighting that "sway"
i am also an American in America. it is happening here.

might i seek your permission to continue trying to sway things in the way of truth?
just a little bit closer?
please?

ma salaama
Reply

sister herb
12-21-2012, 09:42 PM
Salam alaykum

Of course I know we all try to build bridges and find even some sense of behaviour of others and be tolerant. Yes USA kills muslims without a trial, Iraqis kill muslims without a trial, Iranians kill muslims without a trial, zionists kill muslims without a trial as well muslims kill others without a trial. Islam is perfect for us, but muslims may not be perfect all the times.

What are "faux news"? I don´t follow news channels from the Western world very much, just read some local newspapers and there amount of news from the Middle East are quite tiny part about what really happens.

I am not swaning the trtht, I try to understand how people could live in peace together, even they believes are different.

I liked your answer as "technically" yes. Just a word technically. Hopely we will at the some day will find a way to live together in the peace and respect others way to see that word.

And Allah knows the best.
Reply

YusufNoor
12-21-2012, 10:08 PM
wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatullah,

Fox News is perhaps the number enemy of truth in America, BUT they do it in the guise of being anti "liberal communist/socialist/pinko" other news.
m
MANY Americans perceive it as the one news station to tell the truth. that is what they say they do. we call it "Faux" news instead, because it is just as fake as the rest.

the invisible "bias" in this story, which on Faux, isn't very invisible, is that the headline your mind is supposed to see is, "Look at these Muslim wackos in Iran. this man is on trial because he is Christian. go vote for Mutt Romney so we can bomb these [insert derogatory name] back into the stone age. you are not safe as long as these folks are alive?"

which implies, "we, as Americans, are all about freedom and justice. AND THEY ARE NOT!"

ergo, kill at will, let God sort them out.

and i must confess, i am a recovering Fox news junkie. i had it on 12 hours a day. i only switched to watch Iron Chefs, Emeril and JAG.
i "thought" it was news. it is NOTHING but propaganda.
the only "news" i watch now is Abby Martin on Russia TV. Russia and Iran are the only Counties that broadcast any real journalism on TV in America.

think about that...

ma salaama
Reply

hageos
12-21-2012, 10:26 PM
yusufnoor i try not to respond to most things you say in this topic as to not get trapped in your millions of side points. i really just want relevant information. but two things
1. i understand your point about true jewish. i watched the vid jews,christians,islam unites. and i am greateful for peopel like that. there is a difference between zionism and jewish belief.
2. i understand and appreciate your millions of side points i just prefer and appreciate the information im asking for more then millioins of side points

i agree that bridge building is crucial in order to not blow our selves up over somthing that were all waiting on anyways. god knows best. and god knows our hearts. and god will be the ultimate judge. but unfortunatly the one with the gun is the one who speaks loudest. peace.
Reply

sister herb
12-21-2012, 10:26 PM
Salam alaykum

Sorry my ignorance but I never look Fox news (as European of course not), neither BBC (not British). I usually look Al-Jazeerah or read just some news sites of Palestinians.
Reply

YusufNoor
12-22-2012, 06:22 AM
Originally Posted by hageos
yusufnoor i try not to respond to most things you say in this topic as to not get trapped in your millions of side points. i really just want relevant information. but two things

you might want to recalibrate your abacus, i didn't even get to hundreds! ;D

1. i understand your point about true jewish. i watched the vid jews,christians,islam unites. and i am greateful for peopel like that. there is a difference between zionism and jewish belief.

that video bowled me over when i first saw it. i began to look at better translations of stuff Pres A of Iran says. the Jewish point of Israel being illegal i knew, but i don't see it as Torah based. there was an nation of the tribes of Israel post Torah.

2. i understand and appreciate your millions of side points i just prefer and appreciate the information im asking for more then millioins of side points

if by millions, you mean i am an old windbag; all i can say is and? ;D

i agree that bridge building is crucial in order to not blow our selves up over somthing that were all waiting on anyways. god knows best. and god knows our hearts. and god will be the ultimate judge. but unfortunatly the one with the gun is the one who speaks loudest. peace.
peace,

you posted a question that needs explanation, clarification as well. the Bilal Philips video answers the apostasy question the best.

i don't think it is proper to tell you that your religion is shirk without an explanation. i tried to lay out why your religion is not correct monotheism. monotheism is the religion of Jesus, not the religion about Jesus. i'm not giving you an opinion, i am telling you the plain truth.

i find your concluding sentence troubling. today we have Christian nations murdering Muslims on a vast scale. it has nothing to do with blasphemy against God. Christian Zionism, the withered fig syndrome, has been used to fuel Zionism and war in the Middle East. i have partially explained this in another thread.

it might actually be more beneficial for Christians to learn what the story is with their own Bible if we want to see peace spread. for the Muslims, we need to understand that Christians don't realize how offensive their polytheism is to us. it is pure shirk to a massive degree. i have attempted to explain how that is. IF you can see that point, you can better understand Muslim rage and perplexity concerning your beliefs.

OUR Religion is about understanding Tawhid. Christianity is more about love and not about trying to understand God; God is a mystery to you. THIS is why we have conflict between religions. Muslims strive for clarity on God and forget the love. that is our mistake. Christians need to understand that we have no doubt about monotheism, therefore we lack comprehension on your faith. to us, God doesn't seem important to you. that is a real difficult thing for Muslims to reason out.

it says anathema under my name because i strove to find monotheism in Christianity. i WAS raised Catholic, but as an adult, i did not accept trinitarianism. i do not see trinity in the New Testament. i see 2 gods if you accept the Gospel of John, plus an undefined holy spirit.

of course, if i went to a Christian website, and someone tried explaining Christianity to me, i might be put off by that as well. i study your books and how your various sects grew. i study the change. we are not allowed to change our religion, to add to it or subtract from it. we call that biddah.

understanding Tawhid and biddah can help you understand why we go nuts at certain things. it is what we are. striving for Tawhid, fighting against biddah.

that should help you, or anyone reading this, to understand us better. we don't react well when those 2 subjects arise. one is our salvation, the other is our undoing. think of them as "thin ice" when we converse. be careful where you tread. it will make building bridges easier.

sister harb: all those videos i posted in that one post are from Abby Martin's show. be forewarned she is a leftist and probably atheist, but other than that she is the best show in the west. the show is 4 months old and all the episodes are on you tube. she reports on stuff corporate news channels aren't allowed to. AND she packs a punch! Israel HATES her, and alternative journalists are now flocking to get on her show. i'm not sure the CIA and Mossad will let her continue as she does. she may actually be the reason Israel backed down, recently. she showed things the Israel doesn't allow on American TV. Bibi Nutjobyahoo sent folks to Russia to try to get her censored. that part was sweet. Abby is fearless, she is a journalistic warrior. too much make up, but you quickly end up not caring.

ma salaama
Reply

Hulk
12-22-2012, 07:46 AM
"Is Christianity blasphemy against God?"

Ask yourself whether or not ascribing partners to God is blasphemous or not.
Reply

YusufNoor
12-22-2012, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Hulk
"Is Christianity blasphemy against God?"

Ask yourself whether or not ascribing partners to God is blasphemous or not.
:sl:

if i remember correctly, you are a revert. you learned to understand the phrase "ascribing partners to God". i am strongly suggesting that to 90% of Christians, give or take a few million, this term is gobbledygook. if you don't understand precise, simple, logical Islamic monotheism, Tawhid, then those words don't make sense.

90%, roughly, of Christians believe in the Trinity. they hold this belief AND the belief that they ARE monotheists AT THE SAME TIME.

to us, it like as if Elton John is singing, "I am woman. hear me roar." a Muslim would be up in arms, protesting against such, what they consider, a vile and repugnant violation of God's Laws. a secular Christian on the other hand, though not all, could look and surmise, "OK. he's gay. he's expressing his feminine side. the song rocks . almost as good, if not better than Helen Ready." and decide to put it on their ipod. it could even be their favorite song. no problem.

similarly, because they are trinitarian and also think they are monotheists, 2 illogically combined ideas seem perfectly logical together. if you allow that to happen to yourself, real monotheism doesn't make sense. IT CAN'T. it can't because you believe that something that isn't monotheism is actually monotheism.

i see a need for a clearer definition of shirk. not one that Muslims can understand, but one that Christians can. at the moment, "polytheism or any aspect or hint of polytheism" is a grand and precise definition that all can understand. EVERYONE can understand that. some may not LIKE it, but trying to be politically correct with "ascribing partners to Allah" doesn't work.

now, if a Christian wants to ask if his religion is, or appears, polytheistic, thus "blasphemous," to a Muslim. easy to answer! YES. the moment that you add "tri" to your understanding of "mono", you have, in fact changed "mono" to "tri". Muslims didn't do it, they did. monotheism can't be tri-theism. as tri means 3 and 3 is more than 1, then tri-theism IS polytheism. PERIOD. no additional discussion necessary. at all. done. finie!

we won't be building any bridges on THAT issue. but there won't be any confusion on our part, and our opinion will be clearly understood by them. as we have to avoid being offended by their claims that Muhammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul Muttalib, pbuh, isn't a Prophet. let them learn to find whatever patience they need dealing with us pointing out the polytheism in their trinitarianism. if they would like to become true monotheists, they are welcome to join us at any time.

makes sense to me.

ma salaama
Reply

M.I.A.
12-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
this is what my long, rambling posts are attempting to explain.
Islam is best understood in Arabic. Tawhid deals with the Oneness of Allah. that is why i tried to explain it.
the nearest term i can think of for blasphemy is shirk. shirk is ANYTHING that violates Tawhid.
examples:
saying Jesus is the son of God violates Tawhid-Allah begets not, nor is He begotten
saying Jesus IS God violates Tawhid-Say, He is Allah, al samid the One and Only God
same with trinity
saying Jesus created the world violates Tawhid-Alhamdulillahi Raabil Alamin: Raabil Alamin is creator and much more.

in English, shirk gets translated "associates partners with Allah" it IS a truthful translation, but real clumsy for us English first folks. that is why i gave examples of Tawhid first.
shirk the THE unforgivable sin, you exit monotheism when you do it.
apostasy involves shirk, and is centered on shirk,eg, you no longer believe in Tawhid.
apostasy is a decision to exit monotheism, and is in itself a type of shirk. Allah is Creator and Lawgiver, thus you are rejecting God as lawgiver. you are then going to follow someone else's law. that is shirk. A) you don't recognize Allah as Lawgiver B) you actually follow something else. putting that something else in the place of Allah is shirk.
is this understandable?

peace
the quran describes jews and chrisitans as believers, and validates there books as truth, further proofs being treaties and living with both in the time of the prophet muhammed pbuh... although i do not have any knowledge of these proofs.

so is there understanding that at that time 1400 years ago, the jewish and christian religions were preserved to some degree of truthfulness.

were they monothiestic only 1400 years ago?

or does the quran refer to the time when there representative messages were revealed?

either way how would they fit in with shirk, apostacy and summarary execution?


as displayed by OP's post.



i mean with reference to the quran it does say clearly to desist in saying three, but i forget in which context the rest of the verses may be.


the thing about monothiesm is that without being able to explain the concept of god, how can one explain shirk?


i would even hazard a guess that the trinity is not even shirk as it is literally a misrepresentation of a godly concept..

and that goes on all the time, in all religions.

idolatry in particular is the easiest form of shirk to identify as it is the most clearly mentioned in the quran.


but the making of idolatry and differentiation between sainthood or asking for intercession is another matter..

weather it is of any consequence or not is ironically with allah swt.

if it is shirk or not would cast doubt on all the facets that make up faith.

ie

the companions of the prophet pbuh.

the narrators of hadith.

those that tell the stories and those that pass them on.

and in the above i make the distinction of op's thread title.

because the very same can be said about chrisitianity...


how you can keep misdirecting each other is something that baffles me.


if any of you understand the god,
the concept of monthiesm.

then explain it and be done.

and if you cant explain it to other monothiests...

then you have to close your mouth and think a little more.



or is it just your doctrines against theres?

it is literally like children with the ability to destroy each other.


not actual children though, because they would know better.



i mean take an objective view of the world for once,

you wouldnt get faith sent to you again and again and again... if you could ever keep hold of it.

and each time its fought against tooth and nail because those around were obviously right anyway.


...no facts or verses quoted.


Christianity was a blasphemy against the people.


please take time to appreciate that last sentence for a while.


against the government?

against the banks?

i doubt it was a blasphemy against god until it got popular.
Reply

hageos
12-23-2012, 01:58 AM
christianity is a very simple faith. and it can be described in one way satisfactorily which was pointed out, in one his many points, by yusufnoor. LOVE. love, and a little hard work, is all you need. the greatest teacher of love is jesus christ. and it is in his footsteps a christian will follow. love in action. love in defense. love in everyday things. love for strength. love for truth. love for life. love in self-sacrifice. love in martyrdom. jesus teaches three main important things.

1. obediance to god
2. love
3. unity in the bretheren

not complicated. no dates to go by. everyday is day for worship and thanksgiving. no rituals to go by. love extravagantly and spontanously. no artifacts, idols, relics, repretative phrases so on and so forth. least you be as the heathen. gods altar is a pile of rocks on a hill. not a gold adorned temple with silks and finely wrought candles. the church is a gathering of 2 or more children of god. not these massive prosperity convention gatherings. very simple stuff. peace.
Reply

hageos
12-23-2012, 02:02 AM
sanefellow i tried to send you a pm. im not yet 50 posts haha. good to see you to brother. thank you for your post. it had the most informaion on it. peace and blessings to you.
Reply

Hulk
12-23-2012, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by hageos
christianity is a very simple faith. and it can be described in one way satisfactorily which was pointed out, in one his many points, by yusufnoor. LOVE. love, and a little hard work, is all you need. the greatest teacher of love is jesus christ. and it is in his footsteps a christian will follow. love in action. love in defense. love in everyday things. love for strength. love for truth. love for life. love in self-sacrifice. love in martyrdom. jesus teaches three main important things.

1. obediance to god
2. love
3. unity in the bretheren

not complicated. no dates to go by. everyday is day for worship and thanksgiving. no rituals to go by. love extravagantly and spontanously. no artifacts, idols, relics, repretative phrases so on and so forth. least you be as the heathen. gods altar is a pile of rocks on a hill. not a gold adorned temple with silks and finely wrought candles. the church is a gathering of 2 or more children of god. not these massive prosperity convention gatherings. very simple stuff. peace.
Anyone can say they love something. But true love is in it's obedience. You say Christianity includes obedience to God. How do you know you are obeying Him? Do you worship God or do you worship Jesus(pbuh)? You say the greatest teacher of love is Jesus Christ, but he himself says that God is greater than him. You want to say Jesus (pbuh) is a great teacher, thats fine but does that mean you should worship him?

You see you're not actually following any laws, thus your morals are always swaying with the trend. One generation might say something is wrong while the next says it is right. When all you have is "love" without intellect, justice, or discipline then what is such a love worth?
Reply

hageos
12-23-2012, 04:52 AM
if you have ears to hear you will understand. if not then you will be resistant. its all the same to me. but if this is about disecting christianity and christian history and christian denominations and current christian trends can you please post in another topic? i only try help you to understand. many say in this post they are confused. it is up to you to understand the heart of the meaning. or you can pm me for truth in christianity and i will be more then willing to share all i know as well as my personal testimony. peace.
Reply

جوري
12-23-2012, 05:15 AM
Best to answer the above from the noble book itself:
7:191 to top

7 191 1 -



Do they associate with Him those who create nothing and they are [themselves] created?



7:192 to top

7 192 1 -

And the false deities are unable to [give] them help, nor can they help themselves.



7:193 to top

7 193 1 -

And if you [believers] invite them to guidance, they will not follow you. It is all the same for you whether you invite them or you are silent.



7:194 to top

7 194 1 -



Indeed, those you call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful.



7:195 to top

7 195 1 -



Do they have feet by which they walk? Or do they have hands by which they strike? Or do they have eyes by which they see? Or do they have ears by which they hear? Say, "Call your 'partners' and then conspire against me and give me no respite.



7:196 to top

7 196 1 -



Indeed, my protector is Allah , who has sent down the Book; and He is an ally to the righteous.



7:197 to top

7 197 1 -



And those you call upon besides Him are unable to help you, nor can they help themselves."



7:198 to top

7 198 1 -



And if you invite them to guidance, they do not hear; and you see them looking at you while they do not see.



7:199 to top

7 199 1 -

Take what is given freely, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the ignorant.




Reply

sister herb
12-23-2012, 05:35 AM
Salam alaykum

Why we try to find differencies between religions? Why not look what is common in them?

^o)
Reply

Hulk
12-23-2012, 06:52 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

Why we try to find differencies between religions? Why not look what is common in them?
Wa alaykumsalam sis. In trying to understand each other, I think it's important for us to understand the differences as well as the similarities. If we ignore the differences then it will be injustice against the people who are seeking truth. We have good christian members in this forum who I understand are more interested in interacting socially to build a better relationship with muslims but there are also christian members who are open to discussing beliefs at a sightly deeper level.
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-23-2012, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by hageos
1. obediance to god
2. love
3. unity in the bretheren
The problem I see is that your points 1, 2 and 3 often conflict with each other.

Oh and as for finding common ground between Christians and Muslims, you have more in common with each other than you do with me. Maybe you can unite in your opposition to us atheists ;p

Edited to Add: My bad. I just realized I made 4 posts in this section just now and this isn't the comparative religion section. I try to keep to that and the world affairs section so not to intrude on the inner workings of muslimhood. Why do the topics look so similar here to comparative religion though?
Reply

IslamicRevival
12-23-2012, 01:13 PM
I was under the impression Christians believe Jesus (Peace and blessings be upon him) is son of God (Audhubillah) and take him (Peace and blessings be upon him) as their God.

Blasphemy? (With respect) Yes
Reply

YusufNoor
12-23-2012, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
the quran describes jews and chrisitans as believers, and validates there books as truth, further proofs being treaties and living with both in the time of the prophet muhammed pbuh... although i do not have any knowledge of these proofs.

the Qur'an references the Torah and the Injeel, NOT what exists today. this is a crucial and basic point. it is one that you should already know.

so is there understanding that at that time 1400 years ago, the jewish and christian religions were preserved to some degree of truthfulness.
were they monothiestic only 1400 years ago?

your question is faulty. Moses delivered the Torah. Bani Israel lived as separate tribes beginning upon entering Eratz Israel, division in thought occurred. there was a unified Kingdom around 1000 BCE, during this time, the collective works of the tribes began to be combined. the Unified Kingdom only lasted from Saul, David and Solomon. Scholars who presume a single author theory of today's Torah believe it was written around this time. After Solomon, the UK divided into 2 nations, Israel/Ephraim in the north and Judea in the south. Scholars of the Documentary Hypothesis cite this time frame for the beginning for the collection of the Torah. HOWEVER, Judea was destroyed and the upper class deported to Babylon; this is seen as a punishment from God. WHILE in Babylon, the Jews attempted to restore the faith. Ezra edited, redacted and wrote the finishing touches to most of the TaNaCH around this time. he was polishing and editing the work of the team of Jeremiah and Baruch. it is said that he studied for a time with Jeremiah's scribe, Baruch. beginning in Babylon, Jewish Scholarship, headed by Ezra developed much of what Judaism was when Jesus had his Prophet-hood. thus Judaism is more accurately described as the religion of Ezra and NOT Moses. that would mean that it was 3000 years ago that we understand that Moses' Shariah had been changed.

or does the quran refer to the time when there representative messages were revealed?

continuing with Jesus, it is 30-35 years, 1 whole generation, before we see any written Gospels. the earliest parts of the New Testament are authored by Paul. this would be the time frame where the original Injeel was changed.

either way how would they fit in with shirk, apostacy and summarary execution?
as displayed by OP's post.

these are teachings of Islam, how you could not know or understand them is puzzling. you might want to take some courses on Islam and learn your Din instead of wasting your time here. it is good that you have love for your fellow humans, this appears to be lacking in many Muslims, but your lack of understanding of your faith is cause for alarm. you need to be in the Masjid instead of being on the internet, although you could learn much online. this is my advice to you.

i mean with reference to the quran it does say clearly to desist in saying three, but i forget in which context the rest of the verses may be.
the thing about monothiesm is that without being able to explain the concept of god, how can one explain shirk?
i would even hazard a guess that the trinity is not even shirk as it is literally a misrepresentation of a godly concept..
and that goes on all the time, in all religions.
idolatry in particular is the easiest form of shirk to identify as it is the most clearly mentioned in the quran.

THAT is why i was so careful to give at least a brief explanation of Tawhid and cite a few examples. you need to be careful, if you were to make a definitive statement that trinitarianism, tri-theism, is NOT shirk, then you would be declaring that you no longer believe in Muslim. i will post a series of lectures below, a 21 part series by Dr Bilal Philips. i beg you to watch it. you MUST learn Tawhid. i will find another series, in shaa allah, and post it later. i strongly recommend that view it as well.

but the making of idolatry and differentiation between sainthood or asking for intercession is another matter..
weather it is of any consequence or not is ironically with allah swt.
if it is shirk or not would cast doubt on all the facets that make up faith. ie the companions of the prophet pbuh. the narrators of hadith.
those that tell the stories and those that pass them on. and in the above i make the distinction of op's thread title. because the very same can be said about chrisitianity...
how you can keep misdirecting each other is something that baffles me.

i have no idea what the purposes of those sentences are, perhaps you could clarify.


if any of you understand the god, the concept of monthiesm. then explain it and be done. and if you cant explain it to other monothiests...
then you have to close your mouth and think a little more.

please point out any errors, i will change them. but brother, you really have no concept of monotheism OR trinitarianism. thus your words are confusion. if the OP is a mate of yours, and you want us to be nice to him, just say so. it's OK. i commend you for that. but to declare your ignorance of Islam for all to see, i strongly caution against that.



or is it just your doctrines against theres? it is literally like children with the ability to destroy each other.
not actual children though, because they would know better.

i'm glad you mentioned children, you write like one. learn about Tawhid and shirk, then come back and read what i wrote. i invite and encourage you to point out any error.



i mean take an objective view of the world for once, you wouldnt get faith sent to you again and again and again... if you could ever keep hold of it.
and each time its fought against tooth and nail because those around were obviously right anyway. ...no facts or verses quoted.

i have no idea what you mean.

Christianity was a blasphemy against the people. please take time to appreciate that last sentence for a while.
against the government? against the banks?
i doubt it was a blasphemy against god until it got popular.
:sl:

blasphemy against people? i can't appreciate a sentence that makes no sense. perhaps you meant something else?
in regards to your final sentence:

from the "Gospel of John":

1 In the beginning, the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 All things were made through him. Nothing that has been made was made without him. 4 Life was in him, and that life was the light for all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness. But the darkness has not understood it.
first off, no one knows who wrote John. second it is opinion of the MAJORITY of scholars that it was written around 90-95 CE. that is 60-65 years after Jesus' Ministry. it is actually discussing a Pagan concept known as the Logos, which dates from as early as 400 BCE. BY THIS TIME, Christianity is clearly teaching polytheism. 2 gods, God and the Logos [shirk]. the Logos WAS God [shirk]. all things were made through (Logos) [shirk]. nothing was made without (Logos) [shirk]

here is the lecture series:

http://www.tubeislam.com/video/3596/...-Bilal-Philips

you can google it from a different source if you desire.

ma salaama
Reply

~Zaria~
12-23-2012, 02:28 PM
Assalamu-alaikum,

Hageos has clearly obtained the answers to his queries from post #17 - which addresses this topic completely:

Originally Posted by hageos
sanefellow i tried to send you a pm. im not yet 50 posts haha. good to see you to brother. thank you for your post. it had the most informaion on it. peace and blessings to you.
This thread has taken another path for some reason.

Insha Allah, let this member be, and if he has any further queries then he would contact us again:

Originally Posted by hageos
if you have ears to hear you will understand. if not then you will be resistant. its all the same to me. but if this is about disecting christianity and christian history and christian denominations and current christian trends can you please post in another topic?

To my muslim brothers and sisters,

If this is how we respond when non-muslims ask us about our deen - simple questions, that need simple answers, then we are doing nothing for dawah (Calling people to the way of Islam). Instead, we are pushing them further away.

If you dont agree with me, then place yourselves in their shoes for a moment - imagine going to a Christian/ Jewish/ any other religious forum, seeking an answer for a genuine query that you have.
And instead of a direct answer, you are met with sarcasm and your own religion is critisized. Would you ever bother to visit that forum again?

I think not.

In the same way, we need to consider this, when we have people from other religious groups who are seeking answers in Islam.

Who knows, that very person who we have turned away by our attitudes, could have been our brother or sister in Islam (by the will of Allah).

I am reminded of a Chinese saying (that I learnt of from the series called the Arrivals), and I want to share it here with you guys. Its a really important lesson that we should try to apply in our lives when we communicate with others, insha Allah:


"When teachers wanted to teach knowledge they used to tell their students that when someone is thirsty you give them half a cup of water.
If they remain thirsty then you supply them with the second half.

This means that first when someone needs to acquire knowledge he first has to be thirsty for it. And only after this thirst has been communicated to you you supply them with half a cup of water.
Don’t shower them with the full galon of water cause this is only going to push them away.
Give them half a cup. If they ask for a second half you supply it to them. If they don’t its not your responsibility. They will sooner or later in their lives."


:wa:
Reply

M.I.A.
12-23-2012, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

blasphemy against people? i can't appreciate a sentence that makes no sense. perhaps you meant something else?
in regards to your final sentence:

from the "Gospel of John":



first off, no one knows who wrote John. second it is opinion of the MAJORITY of scholars that it was written around 90-95 CE. that is 60-65 years after Jesus' Ministry. it is actually discussing a Pagan concept known as the Logos, which dates from as early as 400 BCE. BY THIS TIME, Christianity is clearly teaching polytheism. 2 gods, God and the Logos [shirk]. the Logos WAS God [shirk]. all things were made through (Logos) [shirk]. nothing was made without (Logos) [shirk]

here is the lecture series:

http://www.tubeislam.com/video/3596/...-Bilal-Philips

you can google it from a different source if you desire.

ma salaama
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
first off, no one knows who wrote John. second it is opinion of the MAJORITY of scholars that it was written around 90-95 CE. that is 60-65 years after Jesus' Ministry. it is actually discussing a Pagan concept known as the Logos, which dates from as early as 400 BCE. BY THIS TIME, Christianity is clearly teaching polytheism. 2 gods, God and the Logos [shirk]. the Logos WAS God [shirk]. all things were made through (Logos) [shirk]. nothing was made without (Logos) [shirk]

so chrisitanity was corrupt long before islam.

and the references to both christianity and judaism in the quran are only of the actual revelations of both said religions.

and the sabians?

who resembled jews or christians?

...in part



anyway never mind so all those that were jews or christians at 1400 years ago were of nothing but falsehood.


...because the quran implies or directly says otherwise.

but by your argument...that only accounts for those at the time of revelation.

..because its all distorted and changed over time. (thank god the same does not apply to islam)


it also says about the jews that although most of them call themselves jews only a small minority are actual jews.


...but that by your argument also applies only to the point of jewish revelation and not those that were around 1400 years ago.


and the marriages to believing women?as mentioned in the quran... a seperate issue im sure.


?

you see this is why i keep my mouth shut irl.

because i know your not that stupid.

you cant be.


faulty question? really?


get out of here.

never mind. i'll go.



seriously not worthy of your company.


i will have to change my writing style because the replies are not to my liking.


and you should learn to think for yourself, rather than having to be taught.

the difference between a competant scientist and a revolutionary scientist.


because you cant call on dr. bilal philips on judgement day.
Reply

جوري
12-23-2012, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
faulty question? really?
Worse than that, is that we will all be responsible before God for what we write especially if the forum is to be viewed the forum as a medium to explain aspects of Islam, or to invite them (which I less recommend) unless you absolutely know what you're doing. So not only are you dispensing with such blasphemy but you persist that you're correct even when folks correct you repeatedly. You don't take it with a good spirit and come back with every new person ingeminating such rhetoric..
Reply

CosmicPathos
12-23-2012, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Who knows, that very person who we have turned away by our attitudes, could have been our brother or sister in Islam (by the will of Allah).
what's up with this dying urge to have people become our "brothers and sisters." If they are turned away from Islam because of our attitudes, that's their loss, and between them and God.
Reply

YusufNoor
12-23-2012, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
so chrisitanity was corrupt long before islam.
and the references to both christianity and judaism in the quran are only of the actual revelations of both said religions.

this is correct

and the sabians? who resembled jews or christians? ...in part

i actually do not know. i don't refer to them though.

anyway never mind so all those that were jews or christians at 1400 years ago were of nothing but falsehood.

here, we need to be careful. when speaking of their religions, we point out what is false when it for what we know to be false. Jesus is reported to have said:
Matt 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]
that is a beautiful verse. it doesn't contracdict Islam.

...because the quran implies or directly says otherwise.

actually, it doesn't. you MIGHT read it that way.

but by your argument...that only accounts for those at the time of revelation.
..because its all distorted and changed over time.

yes

(thank god the same does not apply to islam)

Alhamdulillahi Raabil Alamin!

it also says about the jews that although most of them call themselves jews only a small minority are actual jews.

not sure which ayat you mean.

...but that by your argument also applies only to the point of jewish revelation and not those that were around 1400 years ago.

i believe you are understanding it correctly
and the marriages to believing women?as mentioned in the quran... a seperate issue im sure. ?

yes, most scholars say you can still do that.

you see this is why i keep my mouth shut irl. because i know your not that stupid. you cant be.

i might be stupid! we would just have to determine how much!


faulty question? really? get out of here. never mind. i'll go.

the fault in the question is the assumption that the other 2 religions were A OK 1400 years ago. that is why i pointed out the problems with texts.

seriously not worthy of your company. i will have to change my writing style because the replies are not to my liking.

none of us is more worthy than the other.

and you should learn to think for yourself, rather than having to be taught. the difference between a competant scientist and a revolutionary scientist.
because you cant call on dr. bilal philips on judgement day.
:sl:

actually, we learn our Din as it was delivered to us by Rasoolullah, pbuh. we don't make it up. that is why we turn to scholars. i'm not say to use ONLY Dr Philips.
i AM STRONGLY recommending a curse in Tawhid. it is an amazing subject. our Din is built upon it. THAT series has a lot of basic information in it.

ma salaama
Reply

M.I.A.
12-23-2012, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
actually, we learn our Din as it was delivered to us by Rasoolullah, pbuh. we don't make it up. that is why we turn to scholars. i'm not say to use ONLY Dr Philips.
i AM STRONGLY recommending a curse in Tawhid. it is an amazing subject. our Din is built upon it. THAT series has a lot of basic information in it.

ma salaama
course.

anyway the lack of spell check is noticable and annoying lol..

although without it, we would possibly be better spellers...arguably.


the bottom line is that there is so much information available.. that we follow the things that appeal to us.


so din is different for each person, the pretence of having a global rebuttle or answer...

in any other form except the quran.


is something you should be wary of.


i mean without the scholers you would only have the quran and your life to base your "din" around.

and the people of authority you met.

you would ask your questions and wait for god to send you answers.


....god does not send answers.


but if your thinking about something for a while you often reach your own conclusion.


its how i approach things anyway.



and i have learned that wise men are not wise all the time.

that is why there should always be caution rather than idolation.


and you need to know the difference.


Originally Posted by شَادِنُ

Worse than that, is that we will all be responsible before God for what we write especially if the forum is to be viewed the forum as a medium to explain aspects of Islam, or to invite them (which I less recommend) unless you absolutely know what you're doing. So not only are you dispensing with such blasphemy but you persist that you're correct even when folks correct you repeatedly. You don't take it with a good spirit and come back with every new person ingeminating such rhetoric..

i persist that i am correct because i know you cant be.

i see us all going to our ends following our own beliefs.

and nobody stopping us.

and i know that if you stop following those in error then sooner or later the fuel runs out.


...it really is that simple.

but i suppose you would expect war.


your not meant to enjoin things that are evil.. as muslims.

so abstain instead.



thats how i see it and thats why i persist, because this form of war is the least costly.

but it will consume your entire life.


and i understand that hauf of allah swt is an excellent starting point, not for yourself.. but for those around you.

an excellent basis for me din i taught.


...imo


there is a god bigger than man, how do you fit it into your "din"


that probably the reason why i got back into religion.

not to belong specifically but to find the truth.


...i dont need to belong.


and then he became rich and lived happily ever after.


...more likely he sold his car because he couldnt pay for the fuel.

:p
Reply

جوري
12-23-2012, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i persist that i am correct because i know you cant be.
Prove you're correct then using Quran & Sunnah, not your own made religion!


Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i see us all going to our ends following our own beliefs.
You follow your own beliefs and that is your problem solely. Islam isn't as difficult as all that, I am appalled by some of the things you write & attribute to Islam without proof!

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
and nobody stopping us.

and i know that if you stop following those in error then sooner or later the fuel runs out.
As usual, no clue where you're going with this one!


Originally Posted by M.I.A.
...it really is that simple.

but i suppose you would expect war.
Again, no clue where you're going with this one either!


Originally Posted by M.I.A.
your not meant to enjoin things that are evil.. as muslims.

so abstain instead.
Then why do you persist in inseminating the wrong information and passing it off as Islam?


Originally Posted by M.I.A.
thats how i see it and thats why i persist, because this form of war is the least costly.

but it will consume your entire life.
Again, no clue what this is about!

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
and i understand that hauf of allah swt is an excellent starting point, not for yourself.. but for those around you.

an excellent basis for me din i taught.
what is 'hauf of Allah'?

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
there is a god bigger than man, how do you fit it into your "din"
What does this mean?


Originally Posted by M.I.A.
that probably the reason why i got back into religion.

not to belong specifically but to find the truth.
If what you write here on this forum is 'truth' then let me tell you plainly you've not found it!



Originally Posted by M.I.A.
...i dont need to belong.
It isn't about belonging it is about proper understanding!
Reply

M.I.A.
12-23-2012, 06:08 PM
so what is proper understanding?


seriously.


its like everything is pitter patter around the subject and no real understanding.

how does this place work?

why does it work?

for what purpose?

why was it created?

the purpose of life?

the nature of god?

the seen and the unseen?


these are all part of islam and the quran.

bad analogies and someone elses stories do not make you a scholer.



the monothiestic faith is not something that changes from prophet to prophet..

in anything other than explanation.


i hope you understand.

or are you really that thick?

the worst is the day the masks slip off.


...or whatever you want to call it.


so persist in error and the worldly life a little longer.



but i see right through most people.
Reply

جوري
12-23-2012, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
seriously.
You cause your own confusion. As br. Yusuf recommended a course in tawheed. It is really not that difficult!

best,
Reply

M.I.A.
12-23-2012, 06:29 PM
difficult?

id say as long as you dont want to rock the boat its easy.

please see thread title and related autobiographies for more details.

rinse and repeat for more biblical tails.


?

and yet all tawheed scholers are accepted.


?

i guess there is no need for change.. things must be perfect the way they are understood and implemented.


and i dont often worry about what i write because the mods do a good job.
Reply

جوري
12-23-2012, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i guess there is no need for change.. things must be perfect the way they are understood and implemented.
Indeed tawheed & fiqh are a done deal. If you're looking to reform Islam, then this is the wrong medium for you!

best,
Reply

Muhammad
12-23-2012, 06:33 PM
:salamext:

I think the original questions in this thread have been addressed, so this thread can be closed to prevent it going further off-topic.

Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
what's up with this dying urge to have people become our "brothers and sisters." If they are turned away from Islam because of our attitudes, that's their loss, and between them and God.
Are we not responsible for conveying the message of Islam? If people have a chance to learn the truth and then turn away from it, that would indeed be their loss. But if it is our attitude that turned them away, that is our failing and we may be questioned for it by Allaah (swt). They may even complain on the Day of Judgement that they did not learn Islam properly, because it was us who turned them away. Allaah (swt) says in the Qur'an, (interpretation of the meaning):

Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided. [An-Nahl: 125]

Our beloved Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) was always concerned about his people and humanity in general. He would be saddened by those who denied the message and would be upset when Allaah (swt) was not obeyed. We even find the Words of Allaah (swt) consoling him for his grief in this regard:

Ta, Seen, Meem. These are the verses of the clear Book. Perhaps, [O Muhammad], you would kill yourself with grief that they will not be believers. If We willed, We could send down to them from the sky a sign for which their necks would remain humbled. [Ash-Shu'ara: 1-4]


[All] praise is [due] to Allah , who has sent down upon His Servant the Book and has not made therein any deviance.

[He has made it] straight, to warn of severe punishment from Him and to give good tidings to the believers who do righteous deeds that they will have a good reward

In which they will remain forever

And to warn those who say, " Allah has taken a son."

They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths; they speak not except a lie.

Then perhaps you would kill yourself through grief over them, [O Muhammad], if they do not believe in this message, [and] out of sorrow.

[Al-Kahf: 1-6]


What a blessing and mercy Islam is, and how fortunate we are to be Muslims. It is our duty to share that message with others and we must do so in the manner taught to us in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Thread closed.
Reply

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