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theplains
12-29-2012, 07:01 PM
I saw this on a previous post a few months ago and was wondering if someone could
clarify a few things:

15. And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take
the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if
they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to
them or Allah ordains for them some (other) way. 16. And the two
persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse,
punish them both. And if they repent (promise Allah that they will never
repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins)
and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allah is Ever
the One Who accepts repentance, (and He is) Most Merciful."

1) What is the punishment of the men who commit illegal sexual intercourse?

2) Where can you find 4 witnesses when a man and woman commit adultery? Or do these
verses assume that man and woman do their act in a non-secret place?

3) How can you punish adultery when there are no witnesses?

4) Can the man and women who commit adultery simply promise that they will never commit
the crime again and then they will go unpunished? Or does the punishment actually occur
if the person is caught the second time; showing that their repentance the first time was
not genuine?

Thanks,
Jim
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Abu Loren
02-22-2013, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
1) What is the punishment of the men who commit illegal sexual intercourse?
Sahih International
The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. 24:2


Originally Posted by theplains
2) Where can you find 4 witnesses when a man and woman commit adultery? Or do these
verses assume that man and woman do their act in a non-secret place?
Sahih International
And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient, 24:4


Originally Posted by theplains
3) How can you punish adultery when there are no witnesses?
I will answer this by saying that this kind of twisting of words have been mastered by Christians and atheists who would love to prove Islam wrong.


Originally Posted by theplains
4) Can the man and women who commit adultery simply promise that they will never commit
the crime again and then they will go unpunished? Or does the punishment actually occur
if the person is caught the second time; showing that their repentance the first time was
not genuine?
Again twisting of words. Here is the answer. :)

Sahih International
Except for those who repent thereafter and reform, for indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. 24:5
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Abu Loren
02-22-2013, 06:08 PM
Mr. Plain may be if you had the tasfir for those verses then may be you would have got your answers.

Asfor those of your women who commit lewdness, adultery, call four, Muslim men,of you to witness against them; and if they witness, against them such[lewdness], then detain them in their houses, and prevent them from mixing withpeople, until, the angels of, death take them or, until, God appoints for thema way, out of it. This was stipulated for them at the very beginning of Islam,but then a way out was appointed for them through [the stipulation] that thevirgin should receive a hundred lashes and be banished for a year, and themarried woman be stoned. The prescribed punishment was explained thus in thehadīth, ‘Come listen to me! Come listen to me! God has now made a way out forthem’, as reported by Muslim.
Andwhen two of you (read wa’lladhāni or wa’lladhānni) men, commit it, that is, alewd act, adultery or homosexual intercourse, punish them both, with insultsand beatings with sandals; but if they repent, of this [lewd act], and makeamends, through [good] action, then leave them be, and do not harm them. Godever turns [relenting], to those who repent, and is Merciful, to them. This[verse] is abrogated by the prescribed punishment if adultery is meant [by thelewd act], and similarly if homosexual intercourse is meant, according toal-Shāfi‘ī; but according to him, the person who is the object of the [penetrative]act is not stoned, even if he be married; rather, he is flogged and banished.Judging by the dual person pronoun, it seems more obvious that homosexualfornication is meant [by this verse], even though the former [sc. al-Shāfi‘ī]was of the opinion that it referred to an adulterer and an adulteress; but this[opinion of his] may be countered by the fact that [the reference to] the two[men] becomes clear on account of the particle min being attached to amasculine pronoun [minkum, ‘of you’], and by the fact that they suffer the samepunishment, [both effect the action of] repentance and [are both granted] thatthey be left alone [thereafter], [all of] which applies specifically to men,given that for women detention is stipulated, as was stated before.
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Jedi_Mindset
02-22-2013, 06:31 PM
It doesnt mean that when a man and woman commit adultery that they should be stoned, for this 4 witnesses need to be there to testify. Or both the men and woman want to be stoned, mainly the jews wanted that because the torah says so. However when both repent sincerly nothing happens to them. Islamic law is just, and doesnt enforce things to you :)

When someone gets stoned to death Allah will forgive his sins and cause him to enter paradise. However i need to find the hadith where it is mentioned. Maybe someone else can find it.
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aamirsaab
02-22-2013, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
...

2) Where can you find 4 witnesses when a man and woman commit adultery? Or do these
verses assume that man and woman do their act in a non-secret place?
The point of the verse is to prevent any malicious lies being spread about the people in question. It is very easy for one person to concoct an elaborate lie to discredit someone else. Very difficult for 4 coroborators to do that (and should they, a punishment is to be handed out accordingly)

3) How can you punish adultery when there are no witnesses?
Various forms of recording devices, testimonials etc. The point of the verse is for adultery to even be considered by th Judge, 4 people (of sound mind) have to have witnessed it with their own eyes.

This is all to ensure there are no conspiracies or loopholes in the system in reporting a potential case of adultery.
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CosmicPathos
02-22-2013, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
This is all to ensure there are no conspiracies or loopholes in the system in reporting a potential case of adultery.
ppl normally dont commit adultery in front of 4 witnesses unless they are porn stars. And most adulterers in this dunya are NOT that.
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aamirsaab
02-28-2013, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
ppl normally dont commit adultery in front of 4 witnesses unless they are porn stars. And most adulterers in this dunya are NOT that.
Most criminals don't commit crimes in front of witnesses - doesn't mean there can't still be any witnesses, so not really sure what you're getting at here.

The point is, the crime itself is extremely bad for all in question (broken marriages, disruption in society, destruction of family structure and so on. Even if the accused turns out to be innocent, you have now created and sowed the seeds of doubt in the couple's mind which leads to more marital/family/social problems) and the punishment is so severe - the amount of evidence required has to be high to ensure only the guilty people are punished and the innocent remain free.

As I said earlier, it is very easy for one person to say they witnessed the crime and, through the use of commercially available technology, set someone up and take them to court. It is much harder for multiple people to all corroborate the exact same story and evidence in a court of law. Even if all these criterion are met, one still has to convince the Judge, as with any crime in Islam.

All this makes it very hard for anyone - be it a vengeful ex or just some random douche - to take an innocent man/woman to court and destroy their reputation as well as their family.

The term innocent until proven guilty applies very well in this circumstance.
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Ahmad H
02-28-2013, 11:43 PM
Don't forget that even someone who wants to admit to their adultery would have to be very persistent in admitting it, as per one instance in the life of Rasul-e-Karim (saw), where a man confessed four times, each time Rasul-e-Karim (saw) turned away from him to not listen to him admitting it four times.

Also, if someone commits adultery, and they are not punished for it with the Hadd punishment, then their case is going to be taken up with Allah instead. And, it is considered that Allah has covered their sin from the eyes of other people, so it is actually a chance for them to repent.

Also, the stoning and lashes punishments are meant to eliminate the sin of the crime itself, so after the punishment is completed, the offender is then considered free of guilt of the crime as they have been punished in this world instead of the Hereafter.

And in cases of rape, the perpetrator is punished, and the one who is raped is not punished, but their testimony is used to try and catch the offender. The woman is not one who has sinned, but she is considered a victim instead.

So the system set in place in Islam to deal with this issue is Heavenly, not earthly. It is not for us people to try and catch those who do this crime and look out for them, since the Holy Prophet (saw) suspected a woman once of adulterous behavior, but he did not pursue her as he had no evidence against her - so he left her alone. He was one who would rather not punish anyone for their offences and wanted them to go to him to confess their guilt and not pursue such people. He was a Prophet of absolute mercy. He would rather everyone be judged by Allah and have a chance to ask for forgiveness in this life before death. After all, they would get to pray for more days and nights and build up more good deeds for themselves for the Hereafter.
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