The sorry state of Muslim World

[g.singh]

Sat Sri Akal Everyone,

I always wanted to chat to someone about this. Its great that Muslims are proud of their beliefs as everyone should be but honestly your view towards other religion is a great joke. Its amazing how naive muslims are. Just an example, I introduced myself in the newbie forum, I got a link for the website that post absolute garbage about Sikhism, I was so angry to read the --- on the website that after sometime it became funny and not worth reading. But anyway, my question today is the sad state of muslim community in the middle east.

Middle east is a muslim dominated area of the world with huge resources of oil and if needed they can actually become the world power. But sadly, its one area that no one wants to live in (including muslims). We look at the modern world histroy and there is nothing to speak about muslim contribution in the field of science, technology , etc.All we hear from muslims is their hatered against other religions, or demanding sharia in UK or US or AUS instead of living in peace in these great countries. All they have to say is how great quran is and blah blah blah. Personally the world is least interested. But as I said this thread is not about discussing religious topics.

Even when muslims comes to west, all they keep asking about is how oppresed they are and need government funding to tell people more about islam and implement sharia law. I mean isn't it unislamic anyway to get assistance from non muslims as per quran? And if they like sharia so much, y they left their country in first place.

Where as Jews on the other hand as the most inteligent people out there (Surprise, Surprise?). Most advanced in every field and more importantly no suicide bomboers:)

And then I watch people like Zakir Niak on television and muslims follow him blindly and they I am no longer surprised. Instead of teaching non muslims about Islam, I would actually ask Zakir Niak to go to middle east and teach people how to live in peace and harmoy.

Why so you think this is the case?

[Abdul Fattah]

There are indeed a ton of problems in the middle-east, and education is probably one of the biggest issues.However, why do you assume the problem lies with religion? In my opinion, the most obvious reason for this is first the colonisation of most of those countries, followed later on by a sudden vacuum of power which was afterwards filled by dictators and what-not. If however you study history further back, you see that the middle east has had it's golden ages as well, and the tables were turned once. so obviously it's not a problem that comes from religion, but which has other factors.

As for that website you mention, I don't know that specific sites. But there are tons of idiotic sites, coming from all denominations and groups of people. It's one of those laws of the internet. The number of idiotic website will always be proportionally constant to the number of people who have acces to it... (regardless their religious views!) So you've found a site which has poor information... Your point was?

[جوري]

I watched a program about Sikhs the other day they were celebrating something or another in Pakistan having come all the way from Punjab... The guy who was being interviewed concentrated all his efforts to speak poorly of the host region, of Pakistanis and Islam and I wondered if that made him feel better about his own beliefs or solidified them for him?
At any rate all empires rise and fall, as the hadith goes:

" كما تكونوا يولى عليكم "
and even though it is a weak hadith is certainly rings true.. Bad people have bad rulers,,, for it is what God sees fit for us as a people undeserving of the divine message we've neglected for man made laws and worldly lure.. But it doesn't denote permanence already the tides of change are reverberating all throughout the Muslim world and there's a new awakening to the hibernating lion for make no mistake, the ummah maybe a wounded lion but it is a lion nonetheless!. As for Islamic or Muslim contributions in modern time.. well there's no 'Muslim Ummah' to foster the talents of its children, they're talented just the same, they don't put their talent under the title of 'Muslim scientist' anymore no- the glory goes to the country of citizenship. Visit any hospital of large firm and look at the list of names and who the brightest of its stars. . Some of the best doctors bar none that have made it to the hall of fame are Muslim. ...
If I were you and I am convinced of my beliefs and gurus then I'd concentrate my efforts on my own spiritual growth, I wouldn't go visit a forum and tell its members oh look at your sorry state.. in fact that speaks more of your state of being than ours..
btw my close friend and college friend is Sikh, I must admit I haven't found unanimity between her beliefs or those of other sikhs, each gives their own version and then mocks the others for being heretics -- I find that quite strange !

best,

[aamirsaab]

Middle east is a muslim dominated area of the world with huge resources of oil and if needed they can actually become the world power. But sadly, its one area that no one wants to live in (including muslims). We look at the modern world histroy and there is nothing to speak about muslim contribution in the field of science, technology , etc.

This is completely fallacious. It was because of Muslim scientists we even have the scientific method - i.e. the corner stone of scientific study. Half of the utensils doctors use today are based on (or are actual) tools designed and created by Muslim scientists. The field of algebra was invented by Muslim mathematicians. The numbers you use to tell the time are based on Muslim designed numbers. The ranks in your military, again based on Muslim terminology. I could go on.

All we hear from muslims is their hatered against other religions, or demanding sharia in UK or US or AUS instead of living in peace in these great countries. All they have to say is how great quran is and blah blah blah. Personally the world is least interested. But as I said this thread is not about discussing religious topics.

Really? How many Muslims have you personally met in real life stating those claims? Would you say that number (if at all) is representative of 1.6(*) billion people?

Even when muslims comes to west, all they keep asking about is how oppresed they are

That's because they ARE. Take a look at Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine or just about any Muslim country and you'll see it for yourself. So what you're actually saying is Muslims should shut up about being oppressed because you don't want to here it? That's honestly the most douchiest thing I have ever read on the internet.

and need government funding to tell people more about islam and implement sharia law.

This is an outright lie on both occasions. First of all: any mosque or Islamic centre is built entirely on donations because this country is secular and does not fund Islamic places of worship...Secondly, since when was the concept of wanting something in a Democracy a bad thing? Are you against freedom of speech now? I think you are, it seems to fit with everything you've said so far...hopefully I'm wrong.

I mean isn't it unislamic anyway to get assistance from non muslims as per quran?

Again another outright lie.

And if they like sharia so much, y they left their country in first place.

Because their own countries are not using Sharia Law. Just like how your "home" country is not using the Sikh Law system.

Where as Jews on the other hand as the most inteligent people out there (Surprise, Surprise?). Most advanced in every field and more importantly no suicide bomboers:)

I don't know why you are turning this into Muslim vs Jews....

And then I watch people like Zakir Niak on television and muslims follow him blindly and they I am no longer surprised. Instead of teaching non muslims about Islam, I would actually ask Zakir Niak to go to middle east and teach people how to live in peace and harmoy.

I'm sorry, are you actually saying he shouldn't educate uneducated people (such as yourself) on Islam's teachings? If you bothered to actually listen to any of his (and many other sheiks/imaams etc) vids you'd see he addresses all your issues and more.

You want a discussion on all things Islamic? I'll welcome you with open arms. You want to vent your anger? Get lost.

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[TJ-alcapone]

We look at the modern world histroy and there is nothing to speak about muslim contribution in the field of science, technology , etc.

To say that Muslims haven't contributed to science as a whole would be very disingenuous. What is true however, is that scientific contributions from the Islamic world in the time period of the scientific revolution (late 1500's onwards) have been too few because of the rise in fundamentalism in the religion and loss of focus towards innovation and development. But between the 7th-12th Century AD, the Islamic world saw a great time of peace and innovation, and was home to some of the greatest scientists from all across the world. Especially in the field of Mathematics and astronomy, there were great strides. Most of the stars we know of have Arabic names. That is no coincidence at all. That is because there were discovered by Muslim scientists of that time period. The very numbers we use today also have a link to the arabic world. The arabic adoption of the Indian numeral system finally led it all the way to Europe. Even in the field of medicine, especially surgery. Many of the surgical implements and techniques we use today are a result of innovations of those time periods in the Muslim world.

That is the dichotomy of human existence periods of extensive war and plunder are always followed by periods of great peace, intellectual though and scientific advancement. Be it the Mauryan empire of ancient India, Mongol Empire, Roman Empire, Spanish Empire, the British Imperialist empire of the 1600's, or indeed the Muslim empire. War and pillage is inevitably followed by rise in art, philosophy, music, religion and scientific innovation. Between the 6th and 8th centuries, the muslims lead a huge conquest of war, destruction and pillage. To the Islamic people, Muhammad might be a prophet, teacher and philosopher. But there is little question that he was a ruthless warlord.

Between 7th and 12th Century AD, the scientists, secularists, poets, artists, philosophers and intellectuals were at the helm of Islamic world. I might even argue that it was the center of innovation for the entire world during the time period. Scientists from all over the world were welcome there to engage in innovation. It is a great pity that it seems to be no longer the same. Those people have been replaced by political demagogues and fundamentalist religious clerics. It is in the critical examination and will of the people that lies the chance for change. If people blind themselves to bigotry and worship instead of critical reasoning and free condemnation, change will be slow and hard to come by.

[Perseveranze]

I think you're being very close minded in many of the generalisations you're making.

Just wanted to let you know that contributions from Muslims towards things like Science are starting to increase, check out Saudi's improvement over the past year;

Also you need to keep in mind things like poverty, corrupt leaders etc. Which hamper down heavily towards our progress. And let's not even go into history, where Muslims were the main contributes towards many of the advancements of civilizations between 800-1200.

[Perseveranze]

But there is little question that he was a ruthless warlord.

Don't you mean he(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the most merciful "warlord" in history? Please show me one other instance in history that can compare to what happened during the conquest of Mecca?

But what is this? Is there no blood in the streets? Where are the bodies of the thousands that have been butchered? Facts are hard things; and it is a fact that the day of Muhammad’s greatest triumph over his enemies was also the day of his grandest victory over himself. He freely forgave the Kureysh all the years of sorrow and cruel scorn they had inflicted on him; he gave an amnesty to the whole population of Makkah. Four criminals whom justice condemned, made up Muhammad’s proscription list; no house was robbed, no woman insulted. It was thus that Muhammad entered again his native city. Through all the annals of conquest, there is no triumphant entry like unto this one. (Lane Poole, quoted in Introduction to Higgins’ Apology for Mohammad pp ixxi)

And I can tell you, given what the Qureysh actually did, ruthless or not, it's hard to imagine anyone in his position would've just stated a few scriptural verses and let them off so easily.

Do some real research on the man, you owe yourself that much at least.

[Perseveranze]

Most advanced in every field and more importantly no suicide bomboers:)

Because apparently, when Israel bomb houses usually consisting of only 8 children and two women makes them better than suicide bombers.

The following groups have been considered religious terrorist organizations in Israel:

• Gush Emunim Underground (1979–84): formed by members of the Israeli political movement Gush Emunim.^[10] This group is most well known for two actions. Firstly, for bomb attacks on the mayors of West Bank cities on June 2, 1980, and secondly, an abandoned plot to blow up the Temple Mount mosques. The Israeli Judge Zvi Cohen, heading the sentencing panel at the group’s trial, stated that they had three motives, ‘not necessarily shared by all the defendants. The first motive, at the heart of the Temple Mount conspiracy, is religious.’^[11]

• Keshet (Kvutza Shelo Titpasher) (1981–1989): A Tel Aviv anti-Zionist haredi group focused on bombing property without loss of life.^[12][13]:101 Yigal Marcus, Tel Aviv District Police commander, said that he considered the group a gang of criminals, not a terrorist group.^[14]

• The "Bat Ayin Underground" or Bat Ayin group. In 2002, four people from Bat Ayin and Hebron were arrested outside of Abu Tor School, a Palestinian girls' school in East Jerusalem, with a trailer filled with explosives. Three of the men were convicted for the attempted bombing.^{[15][16][17][18][19][20][21]}

• Brit HaKanaim (Hebrew: בְּרִית הַקַנַאִים, lit. Covenant of the Zealots) was a radical religious Jewish underground organisation which operated in Israel between 1950 and 1953, against the widespread trend of secularisation in the country. The ultimate goal of the movement was to impose Jewish religious law in the State of Israel and establish a Halakhic state.^[22]

• The Kingdom of Israel group (Hebrew: מלכות ישראל, Malchut Yisrael), or Tzrifin Underground, were active in Israel in the 1950s. The group carried out attacks on the diplomatic facilities of the USSR and Czechoslovakia and occasionally shot at Jordanian troops stationed along the border in Jerusalem. Members of the group were caught trying to bomb the Israeli Ministry of Education in May 1953, have been described as acting because of the secularisation of Jewish North African immigrants which they saw as 'a direct assault on the religious Jews' way of life and as an existential threat to the ultra-Orthodox community in Israel.'^[23]

It's pretty clear when you made this thread, you never did any research whatsoever. Just posted what you thought based on your limited observations and confirmation biases.

[CosmicPathos]

What is true however, is that scientific contributions from the Islamic world in the time period of the scientific revolution (late 1500's onwards) have been too few because of the rise in fundamentalism in the religion

what evidence you have to support that fundamentalism represses scientific growth? Avicenna was a very fundamentalist believer of his ideology. He even criticized Rhazes for not being trained in philosophy yet meddling in it.

[CosmicPathos]

You are ignorant. There are many Muslim scientists all across the world who are making new discoveries. My Muslim friend is 32 years old and he already has 3 publications in Nature in Immunology. You are stoned, go home.

Hopefilly Ill have a publiction soon too iA :statisfie and I think i am a muslim ....

so back off, back off.

and that website I gav you, itss an epic dawah initiative for sikhs. Just admit the owner of that website exposed contradictions in your own scripture.

[Predator]

[QUOTE=g.singh;1561844]

Where as Jews on the other hand as the most inteligent people out there (Surprise, Surprise?). Most advanced in every field and more importantly no suicide bomboers:)[/

Allah had earlier chosen the the Jews for spreading islam's message but they have done away with role and have made their religion a racial religion and have sold their religion for the filth of this world and are just happy with political power and are afraid that if islam spreads they can no longer enjoy and are thus hiring shills and islamophobes like you to spread hate about it.

And then I watch people like Zakir Niak on television and muslims follow him blindly and they I am no longer surprised. Instead of teaching non muslims about Islam, I would actually ask Zakir Niak to go to middle east and teach people how to live in peace and harmoy.

Why dont you ask your bomb factories like RSS, VHP , Shiv sena to live in peace with Muslims ? Those filthy terrorist animals have demolished Babri masjid , attacked Mecca masjid, framed muslims and kill innocent women and children in Gujarat .

[TJ-alcapone]

Don't you mean he(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the most merciful "warlord" in history? Please show me one other instance in history that can compare to what happened during the conquest of Mecca?

Merciful warlord? Do you not see the paradox there? This notion that people would willingly surrender there lands is ludicrous. He did set out on a conquest, and he was indeed successful to an extent. But as is the case with any war, there is massive loss of life and blood. This is true of other monotheistic religions as well, such as Christianity and Judaism. Besides if you are saying that he had a temporary change of heart, that is a poor excuse. History is full of blood thirsty military leaders who change their ways and often seek religion. Ashoka is one example, when his wars cost the lives of thousands of lives, he took refuge in Buddhism. The mistake we shouldn't commit is firstly we shouldn't really judge these military leaders and emperors by today's standard. If so, most should be considered war criminals. Secondly and more importantly, don't gratify your emotional desires by distorting history.

what evidence you have to support that fundamentalism represses scientific growth?

Christian fundamentalism is full of such examples. Scores of people were burned at the stake for heresy. Giordano Bruno is one stellar example. Your colleagues burning to death isn't exactly what would serve as incentive for a larger pursuit of scientific I suppose. In its broadest sense, fundamentalism by definition is a form of ideological intransigence, which is not limited to religion, but includes political or social positions as well. Hence of course it would have consequences of free pursuit of knowledge. One good example of such in today's world would be stem cell research. Or take the totalitarianism of Nazi Germany. It had a tremendously adverse effect on German scientists as the atmosphere was intensely hostile and political, rather than the focus being on scientific discovery.

You are ignorant. There are many Muslim scientists all across the world who are making new discoveries. My Muslim friend is 32 years old and he already has 3 publications in Nature in Immunology. You are stoned, go home.

I am not sure whether your reply was to my post or the person who started this thread. But anyway, it is not that Muslim scientists themselves aren't engaging in scientific pursuits, but rather that the environment in the Islamic world is such that it greatly stifles innovation and scientific discovery. No wonder the top intellectuals and academicians of the Muslim world are all seeking refuge in western universities. And thereby the industries of those nations reap the benefit of the research. Take Iran for example, the supposed spearhead of scientific education in the Middle east. Its ratio of GDP which it allocates to R&D is dwarfed by the average in most other industrialized countries of the world. It is Iran's loss that it is not able to keep hold of its intelligentsia.

[Ali_008]

Middle east is a muslim dominated area of the world with huge resources of oil and if needed they can actually become the world power. But sadly, its one area that no one wants to live in (including muslims).

Speak only for yourself. Non-Muslims don't want to live in Middle-East, particularly Saudi Arabia, because they can't be promiscuous and alcoholics over there. It is quite difficult to find alcohol and women who prostitute themselves for free in Muslim countries.

Ever since I've returned from my Umrah last year, I'm so eager to go back that I can't even explain. I wish I could live in Makkah all my life. Various reasons block my way. Believe me, a great many number of Muslims from all over the world wish to live in the Middle-East.

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi TJ-alcapone
Some thoughts on what you said:

Merciful warlord? Do you not see the paradox there? This notion that people would willingly surrender there lands is ludicrous. He did set out on a conquest, and he was indeed successful to an extent. But as is the case with any war, there is massive loss of life and blood. This is true of other monotheistic religions as well, such as Christianity and Judaism. Besides if you are saying that he had a temporary change of heart, that is a poor excuse. History is full of blood thirsty military leaders who change their ways and often seek religion. Ashoka is one example, when his wars cost the lives of thousands of lives, he took refuge in Buddhism. The mistake we shouldn't commit is firstly we shouldn't really judge these military leaders and emperors by today's standard. If so, most should be considered war criminals. Secondly and more importantly, don't gratify your emotional desires by distorting history.

There wasn't a change of heart. Islam is practical. Yes sure, pacifism is nice in theory; untill your enemy slaughters your whole community. Sometimes war is the only realistic option for long term survival. But when peace became a realistic option; then that path was always prefered. If you'd actually study the biography of the Prophet (peace be upon him) before criticising, that much would have been clear to you. As for distorting history, could you name a single event of that: "plundering and pillaging" you mentioned before?

Christian fundamentalism is full of such examples. Scores of people were burned at the stake for heresy. Giordano Bruno is one stellar example. Your colleagues burning to death isn't exactly what would serve as incentive for a larger pursuit of scientific I suppose. In its broadest sense, fundamentalism by definition is a form of ideological intransigence, which is not limited to religion, but includes political or social positions as well. Hence of course it would have consequences of free pursuit of knowledge. One good example of such in today's world would be stem cell research. Or take the totalitarianism of Nazi Germany. It had a tremendously adverse effect on German scientists as the atmosphere was intensely hostile and political, rather than the focus being on scientific discovery.

There are so many flaws with that argument. First of all, why on earth would you assume that what goes for Christianity would also go for Islam? They are two diffrent religions. It is true that there are some simularities, but that doesn't mean you can jump conclusions and say that anything which goes for christianity goes for Islam as well. The problem with Christianity is that their leaders had "filled in the blanks" while composing the bible, and now allot of those "filled in blanks" seem to contradict science. So obviously they had to make a choice there. As far as Islamic scripture is concearned, science has so far only confirmed claims you can find therin.
Secondly, if your argument is against fundamentalism, I'd be inclined to agree. It is true that moderation, and finding the right balance is the key. And in Islam we are instructed to follow the path of "the middle way". However what you seem to be implying, is a simplistic scale where, the more religious a person is, the more extreme he must be. That is off course idiotic. A person can be very religious, and yet very balanced without falling into the trapholes of fundamentalism. So the notion that the problems with fundamentalism proves a case against religion as a whole does not stand.

I am not sure whether your reply was to my post or the person who started this thread. But anyway, it is not that Muslim scientists themselves aren't engaging in scientific pursuits, but rather that the environment in the Islamic world is such that it greatly stifles innovation and scientific discovery. No wonder the top intellectuals and academicians of the Muslim world are all seeking refuge in western universities. And thereby the industries of those nations reap the benefit of the research. Take Iran for example, the supposed spearhead of scientific education in the Middle east. Its ratio of GDP which it allocates to R&D is dwarfed by the average in most other industrialized countries of the world. It is Iran's loss that it is not able to keep hold of its intelligentsia.

I mostly agree with you there, except then, that I would say

"but rather that the political environment in the middle east is such that it greatly stifles innovation and scientific discovery" instead of:
"but rather that the environment in the Islamic world is such that it greatly stifles innovation and scientific discovery"

If people blind themselves to bigotry and worship instead of critical reasoning and free condemnation, change will be slow and hard to come by.

• How does worship play into that? Can you actually demonstrate that the worship of a deity is an inhibition to improving the wellbeing of a country? Or is this just bias on your part?
• As for bigotry, that's not something that's encouraged by Islam. So that part of the comment is neither here nor there
• As for critical reasoning that actually is encourage in Islam, and you'll find many verses in the quran about that if you'd actually read it.
• I don't know what you actually meant by "free condemnation". I don't know what's so great about condemning one another without consequence. Perhaps you meant something different?

[Perseveranze]

Merciful warlord? Do you not see the paradox there?

By Merciful warlord, it means the Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wasn't a coward who would sit on a high throne telling people to go out and fight random wars. Rather, he knew his people had to defend themselves, and instead of just giving orders, he himself would lead from the front lines as an example. This was such an inspiration for those around him.

It's amazing when kings wouldn't even do that much, and here we had the most wanted man in Arabia and the Prophet of God.

This notion that people would willingly surrender there lands is ludicrous.

Not quite as "ludicrous" as people who would willingly take persecution on their own land.

He did set out on a conquest, and he was indeed successful to an extent.

Nope, he set out to deliver a message from God. When he got persecuted and ended up having to fight back, he ended up conquering and liberating Arabia, free'ing it from its past practices ie. Infanticide, pimping slaves, betting women, playing darts on slaves tied to a poll, shooting sports on animals and so on.

Upon his conquest he reflected to his people that he had never intended for it to get to this point if his people had just accepted his message from the very start. This is why I vividly stated;

And I can tell you, given what the Qureysh actually did, ruthless or not, it's hard to imagine anyone in his position would've just stated a few scriptural verses and let them off so easily.

But as is the case with any war, there is massive loss of life and blood.

Not compared to similar types of wars. Scholars (based on the evidence) estimate around 1000-4000 lives were lost over a period of 23 years in the battles.

The reasons;

- Some of the battles were just skirmishes (sometimes only duels) and this would be a humiliation for the losing side, end up demotivating them.
- Kept forgiving his enemies. As someone once said;

"Can we picture the American, or French, or Russian Revolutions proceeding under the injunction to spare life whenever possible, encourage personal repentance before God, and forgive enemies? Can we picture them succeeding in these goals while holding casualties to microscopic levels?"

Given what the Qureysh had done (in terms of their persecution, torture, killing etc.) I haven't come across a similar case in history where the persecuted people, rose to power over them and ended up forgiving them in the end.

This is true of other monotheistic religions as well, such as Christianity and Judaism.

Not really an accurate comparison given that in Christian/Jewish states minorities were never able to live without persecution or being killed.

The Islamic state was the first of its kind that allowed so many different minorities live together in prolonged moments of peace. In the Islamic golden age, not just Muslims, but Christians, Jews and even Atheists were freely able to contribute towards progress.

“The religion, churches, lives, chastity and property of the entire Christians living in the East and the West are under the protection of Allah, His Prophet (saas) and all the believers. None of the people embracing the religion of Christianity will be forced to accept Islam. If one of the Christians suffers murder or injustice, Muslims are obliged to help him,” he narrated the verse: “Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way…” (Surat al-Anqabut, 29/46). - (Ibn Hisham, Abu Muhammad Abdu’l-Malik, (v.218/834), as-Seerat an-Nabaweeyat, Daru’t-Turasi’l-Arabiyye, Beirut, 1396/1971, IV/241-242; Hamidullah, Al-Wasaiq, s.154-155, No.96-97; Doğu Batı kaynaklarında birlikte yaşama, “Living together in Eastern and Western sources”, p. 95)

"…We may feel certain that if Western Christians, instead of the Saracens and the Turks, had won the dominion over Asia, there would be today not a trace left of the Greek Church, and that they would never have tolerated Muhammadanism as the ‘infidels’ have tolerated Christianity there. We (Christians) enjoy the fine advantage of being far better versed than others in the art of killing, bombarding and exterminating the Human Race" - (Bayle P., Dictionary, ‘the article Mahomed’, 1850)

Besides if you are saying that he had a temporary change of heart, that is a poor excuse.

His heart never changed, he never wanted to engage in a war and only ended up doing what he had to. He no longer wanted to see his people persecuted, tortured and wiped of the planet. He no longer wanted to see the evil practices that have lead so many astray and caused so many lives to be lost. He no longer wanted to see this petty tribal wars, the divisions amongst his people and so on. He decided to fight back, to liberate and unify the Arabian peninsula.

The greatest crime, the greatest ‘sin’ of Mohammad in the eyes of the Christian West is that he did not allow himself to be slaughtered, to be ‘crucified’ by his enemies. He only defended himself, his family and his followers; and finally vanquished his enemies. Mohammad’s success is the Christians’ gall of disappointment: He did not believe in any vicarious sacrifices for the sins of others. [Edward Gibbon]

History is full of blood thirsty military leaders who change their ways and often seek religion.

Nothing like the Prophet Muhammad. When the Orientilist Lane Poole said; "Through all the annals of conquest, there is no triumphant entry like unto this one..." He had a point.

Ashoka is one example, when his wars cost the lives of thousands of lives, he took refuge in Buddhism.

This is a terrible comparison, it really is.

- Did Ashoka and his people go through immense torture and persecution for 13 years?
- Did Ashoka fight when he ended up being forced to?
- Did Ashoka kept forgiving people like Muhammad did during his battles? I don't think so, that's why;

"Ashoka reflected on the war in Kalinga, which reportedly had resulted in more than 100,000 deaths and 150,000 deportations."^[3]

Compare that to the 1000-4000.

- Did Ashoka aim to wipe out the evil practices like the ones that were present in Arabia, or did all he want to do was Conquer? (You know the answer to this).

In about 260 BCE Ashoka waged a bitterly destructive war against the states of Kalinga (modern Orissa).^[2] He conquered Kalinga, which none of his ancestors starting from Chandragupta Maurya had conquered. His reign was headquartered in Magadha (present-day Bihar). He supposedly embraced Buddhism after witnessing the mass deaths of the Kalinga War, which he himself had waged out of a desire for conquest

- Did Ashoka have strict rules of war against killing civilians?

Narrated By ‘Abdullah : During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah’s Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children. [Saheeh Bukhari]

Narated By Rabah ibn Rabi’ : When we were with the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) on an expedition, he saw some people collected together over something and sent a man and said: See, what are these people collected around? He then came and said: They are round a woman who has been killed. He said: This is not one with whom fighting should have taken place. Khalid ibn al-Walid was in charge of the van; so he sent a man and said: Tell Khalid not to kill a woman or a hired servant. [Abu Dawud]

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that a son of Kab ibn Malik (Malik believed that ibn Shihab said it was Abd ar-Rahman ibn Kab) said, “The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, forbade those who fought ibn Abi Huqayq (a treacherous jew from Madina) to kill women and children. He said that one of the men fighting had said, ‘The wife of ibn Abi Huqayq began screaming and I repeatedly raised my sword against her. Then I would remember the prohibition of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, so I would stop. Had it not been for that, we would have been rid of her.’” - [Malik Mutawatta]

Abu Bakr(ra)’s speech to the Army before dispatching them to Syria in which he said; I advise you ten things Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly… You are going to find a group of people who have devoted themselves to the worship of Allah (i.e. monks), so leave them to what they are doing. [Malik Mutawatta]

Anas b. Mâlik said that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) would say the following words to his troops before sending them to war: “Go forward in the name of Allah. Do not kill an elderly person, nor a small child, nor a woman, and do not exceed the bounds.” [Abû Dâwûd]

The Classical scholars are unanimous in this;

“As for the insane person then there should be no difference of opinion whatsoever over the issue of not killing them, even if the person has reached maturity, this is because the person is not responsible by agreement. The evidence that these types of peope (are not to be fought against) is the saying of Allaah: “Fight in the way of Allaah against thse who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress”. (Qur’an 2:190). From these types of people are those who are generally unable to fight such as the elderly, the decrepit, those who are secluded in worship, hired workers, mothers and the likes who are not to be trangressed against during fighting and Allaah gave them a special position in that it is prohibited to kill them due to His saying: “And do not trangress the limits”. (Qur’an 2:190). Meaning: Do not kill non-combatants such as women due to their inability to fight”. (Ibnul Munaasir, Vol 1, Page 228).

I can go on and on. It's a silly comparison and hopefully you can see why. Even Orientilists who have studied the life of the Prophet have observed;

"This respect for human blood is unequaled in the annals of man [Prophet Muhammad brought the most benefit - with the least amount of casualties]. The truth of this assertion is simply borne out if the losses of these campaigns are placed by the side of casualties in the last two world wars... yet none of these two blood-stained wars can be claimed to have done any good to the humanity nor did they solve any problem of the world. The Inquisitions established by the Roman catholic church in the Middle Ages for trial and punishment for heretics is reported to have taken a toll of 12 million lives." [John Devenport, Apology for Muhammad and Qur'an].

It was Abu Hanifa, a leading legal expert of Persian origin, the founder of a school of law in Baghdad, who first forbade the killing of women, children, the elderly, the sick, monks and other non-combatants. He also condemned rape and the killing of captives.… A legal expert in Baghdad, [he] attempted to make war more humane by setting forth rules that were not accepted in Europe until several centuries later—rules that were still not accepted, in any case not practiced, when colored people were involved. [Sven Lindqvist, A History of Bombing (New York: The New Press, 2000), 9.]

note: It was Abu Hanifa (one of the early Muslim scholars, founder of the Hanafi School and considered one of the four great Imams in Islam) who first codified these rules in a legal system, but all of the rules were taken from injunctions given by the Prophet Muhammad himself.

The mistake we shouldn't commit is firstly we shouldn't really judge these military leaders and emperors by today's standard.

Even if we did, they'd still come short of the conquest of Mecca.

If so, most should be considered war criminals.

Then every nation that's ever defended itself must be considered a war criminal. Every man that ever succefully liberated his people from oppression must be considered a war criminal.

Secondly and more importantly, don't gratify your emotional desires by distorting history.

You don't know anything about history. It became clear when you brought Ashoke into it how clueless you really are about Islam and the sirah of the Prophet.

Learn about the topic before you speak of it with ignorance.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

muslims lack the faith they once had - the true strong deep connection with Allaah that once shook the hearts of the enemies of islaam is now scarce.

If you just read about the ettiquettes and mannerisms it is clear that what was and what is are too far away. Once muslims conquer their hearts and desires and accept Islam the way it was meant to - then the problems you see in the middle east will dissolve.


This wont happen until Imam Mahdi appears.

[Networks]

I remember reading somewhere.. That god wants to be close to a human, but it's human who never wants to be(by there activities). That was nice one.

[Abz2000]

Middle east is a muslim dominated area of the world with huge resources of oil and if needed they can actually become the world power. But sadly, its one area that no one wants to live in (including muslims).

just google the terms - colonization corruption statistics -
and you'll probably wonder how it is that everywhere these "civilised" people go - the corruption spikes beyond record levels and continues for centuries.
and after deposing genuinely respected leaders, they install the lowest of the low who will sell their mothers for a pound or dollar.
i am currently living in a country which still suffers from rampant corruption - where ministers sell out government contracts for pennies on the pound to foreign companies.

also look at the financial stability of the countries before colonization and after.

do you really think people just love to leave their families and go off to freezing cold countries where they're often discriminated against and live to work and work to live?

Where as Jews on the other hand as the most inteligent people out there (Surprise, Surprise?). Most advanced in every field and more importantly no suicide bomboers

were you even aware of the fact israel survives on aid from america which is looted from "those arabs"?
and that even now - despite all their propaganda and deception about "the will of the people", they do their very best to make sure people in Muslim countries don't get a government of their own choice?
look at the events in Palestine, iraq, afghanistan and egypt - those are in the last decade. and the bid for statehood just a few weeks ago along with the reaction - we can see who is "advanced" and "civilized".
maybe it's because you've been brainwashed by the capitalist system into believing advancement and civilization mean tools and money.
not your fault, i'd put it down to your parents who left you in front of the t.v instead of teaching you to think for yourself.

and to the other brother who responded with the apology about fundamentalism, no offense intended but it was because many of us Muslims went away from the fundamentals of our deen that our resolve to learn, act and teach diminished,
the luxury and decadence made us forget Allah and we forgot ourselves.
and with it our honour and zeal went out the window and we allowed these children of apes to dominate over us.
it was the fundamentalists who understood the mechanics, not the decorators who focused on the paint job.

O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you.
And if you dispute over a thing, then return it to Allah and the Messenger, if you have faith in Allah and the Last Day.
That is better and more beautiful of interpretation.
Quran 4:59

let us not apologize for God and His Messenger and those who go back to their deen, because the ones calling you a fundamentalist often don't know the meaning of the term.

[GuestFellow]

Sat Sri Akal Everyone

Hey

Even when muslims comes to west, all they keep asking about is how oppresed they are and need government funding to tell people more about islam and implement sharia law. I mean isn't it unislamic anyway to get assistance from non muslims as per quran? And if they like sharia so much, y they left their country in first place.

I never said that I need government funding, nor do I demand for Sharia. I actually keep my beliefs to myself. I didn't leave my country. I was born in the UK and probably die there as well. :/ Never moved.

Where as Jews on the other hand as the most inteligent people out there (Surprise, Surprise?). Most advanced in every field and more importantly no suicide bomboers:)

Ah just don't say Jews are the best in the banking field or associate them with anything to do with finance. You may be called a racist.

And then I watch people like Zakir Niak on television and muslims follow him blindly and they I am no longer surprised. Instead of teaching non muslims about Islam, I would actually ask Zakir Niak to go to middle east and teach people how to live in peace and harmoy.

Why so you think this is the case?

Your asking the wrong person. Go to his speeches and ask him.

Oh let me ask you a question. Where have the Sikhs contributed to this world? Do they even have a country? :/

[Abz2000]

Some of them contributed towards keeping millions of their own people in check when the British east India company came over and took over India with around 5,000 soldiers.

[g.singh]

This is completely fallacious. It was because of Muslim scientists we even have the scientific method - i.e. the corner stone of scientific study. Half of the utensils doctors use today are based on (or are actual) tools designed and created by Muslim scientists. The field of algebra was invented by Muslim mathematicians. The numbers you use to tell the time are based on Muslim designed numbers. The ranks in your military, again based on Muslim terminology. I could go on.

Sir, please read, muslims contribution in the "Modern World" and I also beg to differ on the scientific contribution as you said above.


Really? How many Muslims have you personally met in real life stating those claims? Would you say that number (if at all) is representative of 1.6(*) billion people?

Again actually a lot I wold say whom I have met. My only experience as follows:

1) Ex GF: She was a muslim but she hated every other religion and people idea that I use to feel bad for her a lot of times.
2) Working Muslims (From Pakistan): Always winge about how bad the conutry is and all thw white females are ******. I mean if you hate them so much then why come here. Live in your own country.

Good Experience: My boss , he is from Turkish background and a very liberate person. He says "Middle East and Arabs are idiots", well if you take them out of islamic histroy , there is not much to talk about.


That's because they ARE. Take a look at Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine or just about any Muslim country and you'll see it for yourself. So what you're actually saying is Muslims should shut up about being oppressed because you don't want to here it? That's honestly the most douchiest thing I have ever read on the internet.

I am talking about West Mr Intelligent. U need to look at the sorry states of Non Muslims in muslim dominated areas and then talk about the word "Opperesion". I for once say again, I don't care whats written in Quran, I look at actions, when you don't allow another faith temple or church to be built in Islamic World and then say we respect everyone else then I c it as an ironic statement. Don't even think about saying "this is that country law and Islam has nothing to do with it". Islam is judged by what muslims do and not what they say.




This is an outright lie on both occasions. First of all: any mosque or Islamic centre is built entirely on donations because this country is secular and does not fund Islamic places of worship...Secondly, since when was the concept of wanting something in a Democracy a bad thing? Are you against freedom of speech now? I think you are, it seems to fit with everything you've said so far...hopefully I'm wrong.

Oooo, wanting sometime in Democracy is not a bad thing at all, its the consequences that comes with it. Are you telling me that you would actually like Sharia to be implemented across the world?

Again another outright lie.


This was a question

Because their own countries are not using Sharia Law. Just like how your "home" country is not using the Sikh Law system.


So then go and ask west to change to sharia?

I don't know why you are turning this into Muslim vs Jews....

No I am not, I am actually comparing it to Jews coz all Muslims leaders call for their head and say how bad they are. Jews are actually way smarter.


I'm sorry, are you actually saying he shouldn't educate uneducated people (such as yourself) on Islam's teachings? If you bothered to actually listen to any of his (and many other sheiks/imaams etc) vids you'd see he addresses all your issues and more.

Haha, Sir Have to ever watched his dvd's. I agree some of his answers on Islam are good to watch as they clear some doubts but some of his explanations on other religions are funny to watch. What happen to the saying that "You should check the message before you convey" philosiphy from Quran?

You want a discussion on all things Islamic? I'll welcome you with open arms. You want to vent your anger? Get lost.

NO I was wrong to think that you guys are liberal but some of your replies on this and other forums on Comparative religion is out of this world. Am I surprised , A big NO. This is exactly what I expected.


Muslims have more then half of the population in Africa, look at its state.
Muslims have more then 80% of the population in Middle east, look at its state.

The only respected muslims comes from West where there is diversity. So you are not telling me there is nothing wrong there. Don't say look at what USA doing or this and that. You look at Muslim rulers history, there is blood shed everywhere in name of Islam. Muslims kill each other for power. Mugul rulers were barbaric and so called Imams use to pray in Mecca before they come ot India and kill and rule.

Muslims did everything they cud have done to spread islam even though this mean killing innocent (This is history and don't even justify it with stupid excuses like others) when they were strong, why cry now as to what USA or west is doing it?

[جوري]

to think that you guys are liberal

You thought wrong.
which actually goes for the rest of that diatribe too :)
If you're into self-fulfilling prophecies & expectations why do you waste your time and worse yet ours?

best,

[crimsontide06]

This wont happen until Imam Mahdi appears.

who is that??

[Hulk]

If you want to measure success by one's worldly wealth then by all means you can have it all. Can't take it to the grave with you not matter how attached you are to them. If you want to measure freedom by how much you are able to satisfy your carnal desires then by all means. I have my portion in this world but the final destination is the hereafter.

[Signor]

who is that??

Assalamu Alaikum

Don't want to derail this thread,I've posted this for you.You can go further to read the whole thread but it will mess up things for you not required in the beginning.

Hope this helps.

[ardianto]

Muslims have more then half of the population in Africa, look at its state.
Muslims have more then 80% of the population in Middle east, look at its state.

The only respected muslims comes from West where there is diversity. So you are not telling me there is nothing wrong there. Don't say look at what USA doing or this and that. You look at Muslim rulers history, there is blood shed everywhere in name of Islam. Muslims kill each other for power. Mugul rulers were barbaric and so called Imams use to pray in Mecca before they come ot India and kill and rule.

Muslims did everything they cud have done to spread islam even though this mean killing innocent (This is history and don't even justify it with stupid excuses like others) when they were strong, why cry now as to what USA or west is doing it?

Dear mister Singh

Have you ever heard about people that called Malay?. They are not Arab or Indian, but mixed race between Mongoloid (major blood) and Austronesia (minor blood). They are living in Southeast Asia archipelago and peninsula.

They had their own golden age when Arab Muslim had it. They were Hindus, Buddhists, and animism believers. But when the Hadrami Arab from Yemen came to their islands when Arab started to lose their power in the West, mostly of them decided to embrace the new religion that introduced by those Hadramis traders. Yes, those Hadramis were trader, not conqueror who came with weapon. There's no violence, there's no killing when the Hadramis spread Islam to Malays.

Now mostly of them are living in country that named Indonesia, the rest are living in Malaysia, Brunei Darussalam, Singapore, southern Thailand, and southern Philippine.

Indonesia. This is the country where I am living. A country with six official religions. Islam, Protestant Christian, Catholic, Balinese Hindu, Buddha, and Confucianism. All of these religions have their own holiday that become public holiday. Yes, teachers in Indonesia teach the students about harmony and religious tolerance which believer in one religion should respect to other religions. Blasphemy toward other religion is against the law.

How about Sikhism?. Currently Sikhism is not official religion in Indonesia. Maybe because the number of its believer is very very small, and from what I know they did not make request to become official religion like Confucian who made this request in late of 20th century.

Sikh people in Indonesia are very very rare, and maybe only one man who known by public, Dr. Harbrinderjit Singh (HS) Dillon, special staff of President Yudhoyono.

Just for information.

Okay, Mr.Singh, next time when you talk about Muslim World, don't forget the Malays from Eastern Muslim World.

:)

[aamirsaab]

Sir, please read, muslims contribution in the "Modern World" and I also beg to differ on the scientific contribution as you said above.

So Modern doctors using utensils invented by Muslims years ago doesn't count? Numbers used today invented years ago doesn't count? And you can beg to differ all you want, but the fact remains Ibn Haythm (A Muslim scientist) invented the Scientific methodology. Look it up.

Again actually a lot I wold say whom I have met. My only experience as follows:

1) Ex GF: She was a muslim but she hated every other religion and people idea that I use to feel bad for her a lot of times.

2) Working Muslims (From Pakistan): Always winge about how bad the conutry is and all thw white females are ******. I mean if you hate them so much then why come here. Live in your own country.

Good Experience: My boss , he is from Turkish background and a very liberate person. He says "Middle East and Arabs are idiots", well if you take them out of islamic histroy , there is not much to talk about.

So roughly less than 100? And you think that number represents 1.6 billion people....

I am talking about West Mr Intelligent. U need to look at the sorry states of Non Muslims in muslim dominated areas and then talk about the word "Opperesion".

In the West? Where exactly? Brick lane? Also, don't think I haven't noticed you have changed your original argument which was why do muslims always complain about oppression.

I for once say again, I don't care whats written in Quran, I look at actions, when you don't allow another faith temple or church to be built in Islamic World and then say we respect everyone else then I c it as an ironic statement. Don't even think about saying "this is that country law and Islam has nothing to do with it". Islam is judged by what muslims do and not what they say.

What the hell are you talking about? What oppression do non-muslims experience from Muslims living in the west? And that crap about not caring what is written in the Quran? That's the religion. If the followers are committing crimes, then the followers are to be blamed. Not the religion - especially if the religious teachings says do the complete opposite (i,e. do not oppress etc)

Oooo, wanting sometime in Democracy is not a bad thing at all, its the consequences that comes with it.

What consequences would those be? Change? Are you now saying you do not like the after effects of Democracy? Then maybe you should leave. Or are you one of those who think Muslims don't get a say in a Democracy?

Are you telling me that you would actually like Sharia to be implemented across the world?

I said no such thing. But whilst we're on the topic, Sharia Law as a legal system cannot enter non-muslim lands. And even if it were to be implemented, it would only affect Muslim criminals anyway because the punishments cannot be handed to Non-muslims.

No I am not, I am actually comparing it to Jews coz all Muslims leaders call for their head and say how bad they are. Jews are actually way smarter.

Yes you did and you have done again in your example.

Haha, Sir Have to ever watched his dvd's. I agree some of his answers on Islam are good to watch as they clear some doubts but some of his explanations on other religions are funny to watch. What happen to the saying that "You should check the message before you convey" philosiphy from Quran?

Now you have changed your original argument. Again.

NO I was wrong to think that you guys are liberal but some of your replies on this and other forums on Comparative religion is out of this world. Am I surprised , A big NO. This is exactly what I expected.

I find that very funny actually. First off most of my friends are non-muslims (quite a few of them are Sikh too) - I have no problem with anyone or any religion - so nice assumption. Secondly, you come in here mouthing off with all your misconceptions and outright lies and then cry foul play when we don't bend over and kiss your ass?

Muslims have more then half of the population in Africa, look at its state.
Muslims have more then 80% of the population in Middle east, look at its state.

Correlation not causation. I did statistics, I'm educated to degree level. This crap does not work on me.

The only respected muslims comes from West where there is diversity. So you are not telling me there is nothing wrong there. Don't say look at what USA doing or this and that. You look at Muslim rulers history, there is blood shed everywhere in name of Islam. Muslims kill each other for power. Mugul rulers were barbaric and so called Imams use to pray in Mecca before they come ot India and kill and rule.

You asked why Muslims keep complaining about oppression. Now you are turning it into well they oppressed too! You've also not backed any statements up so I have no idea what you are talking about but oh well.

Muslims did everything they cud have done to spread islam even though this mean killing innocent (This is history and don't even justify it with stupid excuses like others) when they were strong,

Do you have the backing for those statements? I'd like to know what specific events you are talking about.

why cry now as to what USA or west is doing it?

Oppression is Oppression - it doesn't matter who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed.

You say you came here to expel misconceptions of Sikhism, yet you bring with you misconceptions of Islam. You contradict everything I say and you change your arguments whenever you please to score meaningless points and you clearly love the sound of your own voice. It is clear, you are here to vent. Come back when you want to learn.

[Ali_008]

Mr. Singh, the problem with you and most haters of Islam is the generalized view they have of the great religion. Most people just say Islam did this, Islam did that, but they fail to realize that one point or the other every major religion of the world was involved in some war or the other. Islam, in particular, gets highlighted and criticized because it is the only one who not just won the war, but won the people as well and that's just too difficult to fathom for eyes that have been blurred by hatred for Islam. There were actual established kingdoms after conquests by Muslims. In comparison to that, when other conquests took place, the empires dissolved either because the entire populations would get persecuted for showing opposition to the ruler, or there would be migrations by either or both rulers and citizens for the exact same reason.

In addition to that, the conquests of Islam are a matter of such huge discussion solely because even history attests that after Muslim conquests, the citizens would show resistance to any power that would try to overthrow the Muslim king. There is so much documented evidence of Muslims conquests because of the fact that those were successful conquests, and were commemorated onto inscriptions and scriptures as a sign of respect for the prosperity brought forward by Islamic rule.

Apart from the above, you have so much to speak about Islamic history only because of the double standards that the world media has for Islam. When a Muslim does something bad, the news instantly reports him as "Muslim criminal", whereas if that person had been non-Muslim then he would be called by his place of his origin/occurrence such as "resident of New York" or "Accountant from Tokyo" or "Brazilian emigrant". There's a new favorite word for non-Muslim criminals adopted by the great minds of CNN, BBC, and ABC these days as well called "mad man." On the other hand, if a Muslim does something good, the credit goes to anything but Islam such "Indian doctor", "23 year old junkie", "the guy from 7th street", "my neighbor." The double standards are not exclusive to contemporary affairs either as it has been proven by your attack on history of Islam and Muslim rulers. In case you don't know, most deaths in history reported in the name of religion belong to Christianity, not Islam.

Even right now, the so called "terrorists" seem to be predominantly targeting countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Mali and other such countries which to the surprise of all of us happen to be Muslim countries, :omg: because according to you Muslims are killing innocent non-Muslim civilians. We had enough trouble already with Israel attacking Palestine, America attacking Iraq and Afghanistan, and uninvited rehabilitation forces entering countries like Libya, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and others.