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hageos
02-03-2013, 03:19 AM
now theres a part in the Qu'ran that says Surat Al-Baqarah 2:106 We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

so i got one idea and one question which i will atempt to combine

seems like the books have been abrogated or ammended 4 times now. the torah, the injeel, and the Qu'ran in two parts im guessing the mecca and the medina. a lot of people of islam are uncomfortable in talking about this particular part of the Qu'ran because it would suggest contradiction. that is not my intent here. i stumbled over a bit of information recently about this surah that kind of confirmed what i was already thinking, that are indeed contradictions in the Qu'ran, and opened a new door at the same time. it was explained to me, by one of islam, that this surah is ment for the surahs of caution while muhhamd was in medina and then when revealations were given to him in mecca more bolder surahs were take place of the previous because they were not needed yet still valuable for study. since the books have been abrogated/ammended 4 times now because a more complete revelation has been sent either by god himself or by angel a pattern emerges. so i wonder if when jesus comes down and fights dajjal and new jeruslam is established would it be possible for another abrogated/amended version of what we are supposed to do/act/think/eat/so on and so forth to emerge? of course there would be no way of knowing until a prophet by god was come to reveal this to us. but my question is : does this surah give room for future abrogation as part of the tafsir making this a possibility?

i am only someone who wonders of things i claim no authority in knowledge. thats the reason i come here to ask of those more knowledgable then me. peace and blessings of god be upon you all.
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Ahmad H
03-24-2013, 04:44 PM
I know you posted this a while ago. But I am going to respond to it because I have read up on abrogation a bit.

I follow the view that no verse in the Qur'an is abrogated. This is because Hazrat Shah Waliullah (ra), one of the Mujaddideen in Islam, argued that no verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated by any other verses of the Qur'an. Thus, that only leaves the abrogation of previous laws.

As for previous laws, if you noticed, all of those laws were meant for only specific nations of people. The Jews had Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them both). The Books revealed to them were not meant for anyone else but them. Similarly, this goes for every nation who had a Prophet before the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw). They all had laws specific to them.

All of these past religions were Islam, since Islam has been a continuous phenomenon. The Prophethood that had been with the Jews ended, and now it has been finalized with the Muslims. The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) reached the pinnacle of Prophethood, being the final Prophet of all. Thus, should there be any Prophets after him, such as Isa bin Maryam (as) who would descend in the end times, that person can only be a Prophet under the banner of the Prophethood of Muhammad (saw). That prophethood must be only what is left of the Nubuwwat from Prophet Muhammad (saw) and nothing else, since all other Prophethoods have ended. It can only be in this sense that Jesus (as) would be a Prophet of God. No one can break the finality of Prophethood. It remains until the Day of Judgment.

The Qur'an says that the laws in Islam have been perfected (5:3), thus, there can be no other laws ever to be revealed to anyone. Even though Jesus (as) would descend and be a Prophet in the Latter Days, he would not bring any laws with him. The Ahadith specifically say that he would follow the Qur'an, and not the Gospel. Thus, he would not be of the Israelite Prophethood, but would be a follower-Prophet of Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw). There is another narration mentioned in Ibn Kathir which says that had Moses (as) or Jesus (as) been alive during the time of the Holy Prophet (saw), then they would have followed him.

Therefore, as you can see, there is no possibility of there being any other revealed laws in Islam. The Ahadith regarding the descent of Jesus (as) in the Latter Days do not give any indication of any new laws being revealed since the only Prophethood that could ever manifest itself in anyone is the Prophethood left after the Holy Prophet (saw). That is only in the form of visions and dreams. Should you doubt this fact that there is any possibility of revelation, then I suggest you look up people such as Sheikh Abdul-Qadir Al Jilani (ra) and Ibn Al-Arabi (ra). There are many more saints who have experienced revelations of a very high order. It is only in this manner of closeness to Allah that anyone could be a Prophet in the future. Otherwise, every Prophethood has ended. Jesus (as) would experience revelations since he would be told about Gog and Magog and he would tell the people of their ranks in the Hereafter. Thus, his only Prophethood would be that one part out of seventy (or sixty four) that is left. Thus, he would not abolish Jizya by abrogating it. The Jizya would end because there would be no more need for it since the situation would not be there. It is thought this means because the whole world becomes Muslim, thus no more Jizya needs to be paid by Dhimmis since the Dhimmis would have all become Muslim.

Again, a follower-Prophet does not have any laws revealed to them. Only the Final Book will be followed, and that will be the law until the Day of Judgment. There is no more abrogation of any laws.
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hageos
03-31-2013, 03:19 PM
ahmad h thank you for your reply. lots of information. i had completly forgotten about this thread until i was cleaning out my email. so i got one final question: when the mahdi comes would he be able to give laws ? or maybe a better way of asking the question is : the banner that belongs to the person that jesus is under. is the person that owns that banner able to make laws in the final days ? maybe not abrogated laws but new laws ? again thank you for your response and sharing your research with me.
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Muhammad
03-31-2013, 05:43 PM
:salamext: and Greetings,

It should be noted that the vast majority of scholars have upheld the validity of abrogation, based upon evidences in the Qur'an itself and the Sunnah.

Originally Posted by hageos
a lot of people of islam are uncomfortable in talking about this particular part of the Qu'ran because it would suggest contradiction. that is not my intent here. i stumbled over a bit of information recently about this surah that kind of confirmed what i was already thinking, that are indeed contradictions in the Qu'ran, and opened a new door at the same time.
Abrogation does not imply any form of imperfection in the Law of God:

Since the Qur'an was revealed gradually over a period of twenty-three years, the legal rulings were not imposed on its adherents all at once. Rather, it gave them time to grow in faith and become accustomed to Islam. As Shaykh Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi mentions:

Among the blessings of Allaah to the Companions is that He revealed to them the laws of Islaam gradually, and thus made it easier for them to adopt these laws. Initially, there were no specific laws of halaal and haraam. The Companions during the Makkan stage were being trained spiritually so that they could form the nucleus of the future Muslim state in Madeenah. Once they had passed this stage, Allaah then completed the revelation of the sharee'ah in gradual steps, so that they could adapt to the lifestyle of Islaam.(Qadhi, An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'aan, Al-Hidaayah Publishing and Distribution 1999, p. 86)

And as Makkee ibn Abee Taalib (d. 1035CE) mentioned regarding abrogation:

And this (meaning naskh) is from Allah, and is meant to be for the betterment of His worshippers. So, He commands them with a ruling at a specific time, since He knows that it will be for their betterment for that particular time, but He already knows that this command will be removed from them at a later time, since at this later time that particular ruling will not be for their benefit. (An-Nahaas, p. 116.)

Thus, abrogation does not imply any imperfection whatsoever on the part of God, as critics allege. It does not mean that God made a mistake or that he didn't foresee an event. Rather, God knew in advance, and intended to send temporary laws for the early Muslims that would later be abrogated once the Muslim society became established.

It is analogous to a Professor who asks his students to perform 30 minutes of studying everyday for the first week. During the second week, he 'abrogates' his initial command and asks his students to perform 1 hour of studying every day. The Professor did not make a mistake initially, nor did he react to an unforeseen event. Rather, he had always planned to give a lighter load the first week to his students, and then increase the workload the next week because he knew they would be ready for it. In fact, he had his plan for the entire course written down and recorded. So when he initially gave the order to perform 30 minutes of homework, he knew that he would later abrogate this command.

Similarly, Allah initially gave some rulings that were later abrogated, but He knew and intended

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/ab..._ansar_al__adl

Also:

...Thus, al-Naskh (abrogation) constitutes a step towards what is better and superior. Al-Naskh is often a means of bringing ease and relief, since Muslims were required to follow what is higher, stronger and better in the first stage of education and building the Ummah. Thus, it was obligatory to perform Qiyam al-Lail (prayer at night) or that 20 Muslims were to face 200 of the enemy.

Then, al-Naskh of those rulings constituted a form of relief, of soothing, and cancellation of hardship. Another wisdom behind al-Naskh is to bring obedience to the Divine Orders.

Here, we state that abrogated rulings should not be put into practice, since they were revealed for some fixed period of time. For example, it is not allowed to put a doer of Zina in jail since such a ruling was abrogated. Another example is that it is not allowed for a woman whose husband has died to enter into Iddah (awaiting period) as stated in Surah 2: verse 240 since it is abrogated by verse 2. 234.

Finally, al-Naskh was done only by revelation and completed during the life of Allah's Messenger (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam), it is completely incorrect to be done by consensus or analogy.

Allah knows best.



Originally Posted by hageos
since the books have been abrogated/ammended 4 times now because a more complete revelation has been sent either by god himself or by angel a pattern emerges. so i wonder if when jesus comes down and fights dajjal and new jeruslam is established would it be possible for another abrogated/amended version of what we are supposed to do/act/think/eat/so on and so forth to emerge? of course there would be no way of knowing until a prophet by god was come to reveal this to us. but my question is : does this surah give room for future abrogation as part of the tafsir making this a possibility?
As the brother above said, the teachings of Islam are clear that the Qur'an is the final revelation for mankind and that the Prophet Muhammad :saws: is the last Prophet and Messenger. It was only during the lifetime of the Prophet :saws: that any abrogation of rulings could occur, since after his death, no new rulings from the Qur'an or Sunnah are going to be revealed. The Qur'an and the Sunnah are clear that the religion of Islam has been completed and conveyed in its entirety, and this law will remain until the Day of Resurrection:

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. [5:3]

When Jesus (peace be upon him) will return, he will govern the people according to the teachings of Islam. He will not bring a new law, but rather will rule according to the law revealed to Prophet Muhammad :saws:.

Originally Posted by Ahmad H
since the only Prophethood that could ever manifest itself in anyone is the Prophethood left after the Holy Prophet (saw). That is only in the form of visions and dreams. Should you doubt this fact that there is any possibility of revelation, then I suggest you look up people such as Sheikh Abdul-Qadir Al Jilani (ra) and Ibn Al-Arabi (ra). There are many more saints who have experienced revelations of a very high order.
We should be clear that the dreams of people other than the Prophets are to be examined in the light of the clear revelation i.e. the Qur’an and Sunnah. If they are in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah, that is all well and good; otherwise, they should not be acted upon.

And Allaah :swt: knows best.
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Ahmad H
03-31-2013, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
We should be clear that the dreams of people other than the Prophets are to be examined in the light of the clear revelation i.e. the Qur’an and Sunnah. If they are in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah, that is all well and good; otherwise, they should not be acted upon.

And Allaah :swt: knows best.
Yes, I know that. What I meant from up above is that there would definitely be revelations given to Hazrat 'Eisa (as) upon his descent to the earth. That is without a doubt a fact, and that would entail some sort of prophethood in itself. In fact, I discussed this with a Jewish friend of mine and he said automatically after I mentioned 'Eisa (as) would receive revelations that this itself qualifies him as a Prophet by the very definition of Nabi. So this is in light of both Arabic and Hebrew.
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Ahmad H
03-31-2013, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by hageos
ahmad h thank you for your reply. lots of information. i had completly forgotten about this thread until i was cleaning out my email. so i got one final question: when the mahdi comes would he be able to give laws ? or maybe a better way of asking the question is : the banner that belongs to the person that jesus is under. is the person that owns that banner able to make laws in the final days ? maybe not abrogated laws but new laws ? again thank you for your response and sharing your research with me.
The answer is short. No, he would not bring any new laws. The Ahadith specifically say that he would rule according to the Holy Qur'an, and not the Gospel. He would revive the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saw), and not bring a new one. The Holy Qur'an is the perfect and thus final law (5:3), thus there is no more need for new laws. Hazrat 'Eisa (as) would be a reformer of Islam, and he would not bring any new laws. You can confirm this from just about any source of information on his descent and time on earth.
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'Abd al-Baari
03-31-2013, 11:30 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I follow the view that no verse in the Qur'an is abrogated. This is because Hazrat Shah Waliullah (ra), one of the Mujaddideen in Islam, argued that no verse of the Qur'an has been abrogated by any other verses of the Qur'an. Thus, that only leaves the abrogation of previous laws.
:sl:

Where did you take this opinion of Shah Waliullah :rh: from?
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Ahmad H
04-01-2013, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by 'Abd al-Baari
:sl:

Where did you take this opinion of Shah Waliullah :rh: from?
I found it on an article online on scribd somewhere. It was on some document that explained his views on abrogation. He argued slowly over time on a couple of verses each time giving the reasons why those commands were not actually abrogated. Eventually he went through all of the verses and no verse was known to be abrogated according to his explanations. He did this to break the idea in slowly to the other scholars. At least thats what I remember it said.

Correct me if I'm wrong on it though. If you've found him saying otherwise then I'll look into it.
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hageos
04-02-2013, 04:16 AM
thank you to all who responded. ahmad, thank you for the short answer. that is the FIRST time i have gotten a short answer from islam. i am going to look more over muhhamads response tommorow.
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Logikon
05-30-2013, 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by Muhammad

It should be noted that the vast majority of scholars have upheld the validity of abrogation, based upon evidences in the Qur'an itself and the Sunnah.


Abrogation does not imply any form of imperfection in the Law of God:

And this (meaning naskh) is from Allah, and is meant to be for the betterment of His worshippers.

So, He commands them with a ruling at a specific time, since He knows that it will be for their betterment for that particular time, but He already knows that this command will be removed from them at a later time, since at this later time that particular ruling will not be for their benefit. (An-Nahaas, p. 116.)

Thus, abrogation does not imply any imperfection whatsoever on the part of God, as critics allege.

It does not mean that God made a mistake or that he didn't foresee an event. Rather, God knew in advance, and intended to send temporary laws for the early Muslims that would later be abrogated once the Muslim society became established.


Where could I find a copy of the Koran with the abrogated clauses removed? If the clauses are left in it might lead to a misunderstanding.

.
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Muhammad
05-31-2013, 08:20 PM
Greetings Logikon,

It is important to note that abrogation can never occur with respect to the fundamentals of the religion and creedal issues, or where something factual is narrated. This covers things like our belief in God, heaven and hell, stories of the Prophets or previous nations, etc. It only occurs in the category of instruction, including commands and prohibitions, although there are exceptions. God tells us that all the Prophets had the same key message:

He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him]. [42:13]

Bearing this in mind, coming across a verse whose ruling is abrogated should not cause much misunderstanding for someone who wants to gain a basic understanding of Islam through reading the Qur'an.

For a more in-depth understanding, then knowledge of abrogation is certainly important. There have been a great many books written on this subject which a serious student can refer to. This also highlights why certain pre-requisites are necessary when interpreting the Qur'an and hence it is not a job for the lay person. Scholars have specifically mentioned knowledge of the science of abrogation as being one of the required qualifications.

Lastly, it is worth appreciating why certain verses might have remained in the Qur'an despite their ruling being abrogated. It may be a reminder from God to the believers of His blessings, so that they may thank Him for His Mercy. Those verses are also a blessing to recite, for the recitation of each letter gives the reward of ten.

And Allaah :swt: knows best.
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facethetruth
09-03-2013, 04:53 PM
Sorry I did not read the previous ones, so if somebody already said it, this is the answer if not Allah revealed in the Quran that in which means that today I have completed your religion and accepted Islam as your religion. In the day of judgment when jesus peace be upon him comes he will pray behind the Mahdi which means he is a Muslim now.
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