MPs approve gay marriage for England and Wales

[Insaanah]

5 February 2013 Last updated at 22:38

Gay marriage: MPs back bill despite Conservative backbench opposition

MPs have approved same-sex marriage in England and Wales in a key Commons vote, despite the opposition of almost half the Conservative MPs.

'We are all equal'

Opening the debate, Equalities Minister Maria Miller urges MPs to back the bill

Deputy Prime Minister and Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg said: "I genuinely believe that we will look back on today as a landmark for equality in Britain.

"Tonight's vote shows Parliament is very strongly in favour of equal marriage.

"No matter who you are and who you love, we are all equal. Marriage is about love and commitment, and it should no longer be denied to people just because they are gay.

"The Liberal Democrats have long fought for equal marriage. It is party policy and I am proud that the Liberal Democrats are part of the coalition government that are making it happen."

MPs were given a free vote on the bill, meaning they were not ordered to vote a particular way by party whips.

Their decision to back the bill at second reading signifies that they approve of it in principle. The legislation will now receive more detailed parliamentary scrutiny.

Opposition leader Ed Miliband said: "This is a proud day and an important step forward in the fight for equality in Britain.

"The overwhelming majority of Labour MPs supported this change to make sure marriage reflects the value we place on long-term, loving relationships whoever you love.

Full news item here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21346220

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Insaanah;

Sadly Britain is turning it's back against God.

Blessings

Eric

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum,

Whats next, we should also be allowed to marry animals? Brother and sisters will be allowed to marry as well? Brace yourself for what the future holds for us!

[truthseeker63]

This is evil.

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[Urban Turban]

As-salamu alaykum,

Whats next, we should also be allowed to marry animals? Brother and sisters will be allowed to marry as well? Brace yourself for what the future holds for us!

Sorry, you are late brother.

Incest is the new gay :cry:

http://2reachout.wordpress.com/2012/...s-the-new-gay/

[Pygoscelis]

Congratulations to England and Wales. I thought it was already legal there though. Better late than never I suppose. Canada has had it for quite some time now and all the horror stories we were promised never happened.

[GuestFellow]

I'm so flabbergasted!#@;^%:/? *screams*

On a serious note, this was going to happen. Oh well let's see the social impact. *sits down and eats popcorn* Things are getting exciting! *drinks can of coke*

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

Someone eats popcorns here... me too.

['Abd-al Latif]

Congratulations to England and Wales. I thought it was already legal there though. Better late than never I suppose. Canada has had it for quite some time now and all the horror stories we were promised never happened.

Are you kidding me?! ^o)

[titus]

On a serious note, this was going to happen. Oh well let's see the social impact. *sits down and eats popcorn* Things are getting exciting! *drinks can of coke*

I think you will be bored with the show. The impact will be close to nil.

What do you think is going to happen because gay marriage is legalized, by the way? How is this going to actually change anything and what are people so afraid of?

[crimsontide06]

so disgusting...However I say let people do what they want. It will be between them and God.

[Iceee]

Salaam.

so disgusting...However I say let people do what they want.

True. Please Don't make rude comments about this issue. You never know what might happen, maybe good, maybe bad. Only Allah Knows.

It will be between them and God.

[Pygoscelis]

How is this going to actually change anything and what are people so afraid of?

According to the other thread here, the answer to your question appears to be that they are afraid of cannibalism and stuff. Don't ask me to explain that one....

['Abd-al Latif]

I think you will be bored with the show. The impact will be close to nil.

What do you think is going to happen because gay marriage is legalized, by the way? How is this going to actually change anything and what are people so afraid of?

It has nothing to do with fear itself but a fear of society dwindling and hitting rock bottom. Among a number of factors, it has to do with morality and an upright society.

Throughout history homosexuality has always been strongly disapproved of and this can be traced back all the to era of Plato. It sickens me to think that many of today's leaders claim to be 'progressive' when Britian's ancestors, if not the ancestors of people in every corner of the world, proclaimed an intense hatred for homosexuality. And these are the people/ nations we read about in the history books. If anything the world is becoming distant than ever before from it's roots and the fear that moral individuals and families have is living in a perversive society where they and their children will live and grow old in.

What will it change? I absolutely detest that innocent mind's of young children in schools be taught that homosexuality is acceptable. I find it abhorrent that I should have to hear about gays getting married in holy places when it was God Himself who decreed the sacred act of marriage. And I find it absolutely unacceptable that they should be recognised in society today when they have clearly had no place in history.

Man's law may decree that homosexuality is permissible but that does not mean it should to be respected. I, for one, am strongly against homosexuality and so is every upright, ethical individual in the world who's moral compass is still in tact.

This is the fear: society dwindling and hitting rock bottom where there will remain no appreciation and value for the virtuous.

[Independent]

Throughout history homosexuality has always been strongly disapproved of and this can be traced back all the to era of Plato

A number of Greek city states at times officially tolerated homosexuality (eg Sparta). And many states through the centuries have tolerated homosexuality in practice, even if in theory they opposed it. This would include some societies who described themselves as Muslim.

And I find it absolutely unacceptable that they should be recognised in society today when they have clearly had no place in history.

Historically, many notable figures from all walks of life were homosexual.

Man's law may decree that homosexuality is permissible but that does not mean it should to be respected

From a science point of view the debate goes on, but personally I think its likely that one day it will indeed be shown that homosexuality in many cases occurs by nature, not by nurture. At that point it will raise many moral questions about whether an individual has much choice. For instance, latest research here:
http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/1...homosexuality/

I find it abhorrent that I should have to hear about gays getting married in the holy places when it was God himself who decreed the sacred act of marriage.

Although I am very liberal in most respects, actually I do agree that it's wrong for the Church to be obliged to offer the 'sacrament of marriage', which is a strictly religious matter within their own jurisdiction. So long as homosexuals have equal rights within the state (civil union/marriage rights etc) then I agree that this measure is unnecessary and causes more problems than its worth.

[Trumble]

Throughout history homosexuality has always been strongly disapproved of and this can be traced back all the to era of Plato. It sickens me to think that many of today's leaders claim to be 'progressive' when Britian's ancestors, if not the ancestors of people in every corner of the world, proclaimed an intense hatred for homosexuality. And these are the people/ nations we read about in the history books.

So? For the vast majority of that period since Plato those same ancestors thought slavery was a good idea. Unless they were slaves, obviously. Fortunately we are not stuck in the past, and the attitudes of the past are today are regarded as unacceptable as often as not. Humanity is growing up. Just because our ancestors hated is no reason we should continue to hate. Hate always has been, and always will be, the biggest enemy of our species and a 'moral' code that teaches its preservation has little to recommend it, and no ultimate future.

Although I am very liberal in most respects, actually I do agree that it's wrong for the Church to be obliged to offer the 'sacrament of marriage', which is a strictly religious matter within their own jurisdiction. So long as homosexuals have equal rights within the state (civil union/marriage rights etc) then I agree that this measure is unnecessary and causes more problems than its worth.

The Bill actually provides both opt-outs for any religious organization, and for any individual clerics within a religious organization that does not opt out. No such 'obligation' therefore exists for either organization or individual. The Bill also amends previous Equality legislation to prevent any conflict arising.

[GuestFellow]

Are you kidding me?! ^o)

:wa:

Where have you been all this time? He supports gay marriage.

I think you will be bored with the show. The impact will be close to nil.

What do you think is going to happen because gay marriage is legalized, by the way? How is this going to actually change anything and what are people so afraid of?

It's just Islam states homosexuals cannot engage in any sexual relations. That is what it boils down to.

^ Sorry ignore that part.

I think it will have an impact. Like homosexual couples will be more accepted than before. For example, it won't be unusual to have two dads. I don't think I said anything about fear.

[crimsontide06]

So? For the vast majority of that period since Plato those same ancestors thought slavery was a good idea. Unless they were slaves, obviously. Fortunately we are not stuck in the past, and the attitudes of the past are today are regarded as unacceptable as often as not. Humanity is growing up. Just because our ancestors hated is no reason we should continue to hate. Hate always has been, and always will be, the biggest enemy of our species and a 'moral' code that teaches its preservation has little to recommend it, and no ultimate future.

This is not about hate..no one can say who will go to heaven or hell, it's between them and God. I do not hate people who are gay, I have a friend who is gay actually. I simply believe it's a sin and is gross..

[GodIsAll]

I agree.

Many on here won't, though.

[GuestFellow]

I agree.

WHAT! o_o
No worries, we still can be fwends right? Why do you support this proposal?

[Al-Mufarridun]

This is a civilization that at it's core, is based on the Worship of the Self. "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". Do what ever you want to fulfill your desires, eat whatever you want, wear whatever you want, hump whatever you want. The rule was, do all that without harming or intervening in other's pursuit of their desires. But more and more, you will find that this is unattainable, for once you make desire as 'god', you will find those whose sole desire is to harm others, their pursuit of happiness is in killing and abusing children.

Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge
and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ?
Then will you not be reminded? [45:23]

['Abd-al Latif]

A number of Greek city states at times officially tolerated homosexuality (eg Sparta). And many states through the centuries have tolerated homosexuality in practice, even if in theory they opposed it. This would include some societies who described themselves as Muslim.


Historically, many notable figures from all walks of life were homosexual.

Your point?

I never denied their existence, albeit minute they were in number and secret lives they lived. I said they were (rightly) never accepted in any society and, regardless of place and time (except the current), were sentenced with the death penalty because they were never considered normal human beings.

From a science point of view the debate goes on, but personally I think its likely that one day it will indeed be shown that homosexuality in many cases occurs by nature, not by nurture. At that point it will raise many moral questions about whether an individual has much choice. For instance, latest research here:
http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/1...homosexuality/

You so heavily depend on human endeavour for answers to everything. Homosexuality occurring by birth is a myth and all that has been said about it has been nothing but speculation. It's not a fact and it will never be one.

[GodIsAll]

WHAT! o_o
No worries, we still can be fwends right? Why do you support this proposal?

Whoa! That was supposed to be with an earlier quote. Leave it to my rancid techno skills to mess that up.

I DON'T agree with the proposal. I was saying I don't really care one way or the other. That is between these people and God, in my mind. Sickening to me, but God will handle it as He best sees fit.

[GuestFellow]

Whoa! That was supposed to be with an earlier quote. Leave it to my rancid techno skills to mess that up.

I DON'T agree with the proposal. I was saying I don't really care one way or the other. That is between these people and God, in my mind. Sickening to me, but God will handle it as He best sees fit.

Yeah I really don't care either. I just view this world as some sort of big drama. Like America totally two timing Great Britain and China. As long as I'm not forced to do something that I dislike, I'm happy.

This approval won't really affect me.

[Pygoscelis]

Although I am very liberal in most respects, actually I do agree that it's wrong for the Church to be obliged to offer the 'sacrament of marriage', which is a strictly religious matter within their own jurisdiction. So long as homosexuals have equal rights within the state (civil union/marriage rights etc) then I agree that this measure is unnecessary and causes more problems than its worth.

I agree with this. I see the homosexual marriage debate as underscoring an even more important debate, the separation of church and state. The state should not be forcing the church to recognize anybody as entering a spiritual union, that is the church's business. And likewise the church should not be forcing the state to give or take away any special rights to any particular group of people based on church doctrine.

[IAmZamzam]

For the longest time I agreed with you guys. About homosexual sex (not homosexuality itself) being immoral, that is, and not about it needing to be outlawed. I would have told you even then that it’s none of the law’s business who marries whom, that the law is about preserving order and physical safety, not enforcing the lawmaker’s personal idea of ethics. The only people I would ever trust to do that are prophets. (Before you bring up Lot the people he was commanding “not to approach men” were already married to women. Not to mention all the robbing and murdering they were doing, which folks always somehow fail to mention.)

I was pretty firm about this and on retrospect I don’t really blame myself for it. The only two pro-gay arguments I ever commonly heard people make are pretty poor. One of them is, “Anything that doesn’t hurt anybody can’t be immoral,” which isn’t a philosophy at all and would have sounded lazily simplistic even to a flower child on Haight-Asbury. The other is, “They were born that way,” which is pure textbook fallacy of appeal to inherent nature, and the ultimate sign of how frighteningly determinism has dominated modern thought. I was born without a sense of bodily shame but that does not give me an automatic “get out of immodest behavior free” card. Some people are said to be born with elements of Antisocial Personality Disorder in them. So what of it? But I’m sure that by now we’re back on, “Anything that doesn’t hurt anybody can’t be immoral.” Desire is involuntary; action is not. And we’re defined by our actions. You see how unpersuasive people can people even when they’re right.

And so, hearing only these two pathetic arguments, and not thinking through the matter with Lot any further myself than most other Muslims do, I was as firm about homosexual behavior as most of them still are now. After all, I thought, the way the world works is that mutually exclusive pairs of complementary opposites work together to produce an effect that only they can produce together. Male and female is just one example or extension of many. Yin and yang and all that. From the way these pro-gay advocates talked you’d think that the abstract relationship was the only thing that mattered and the fact of what the people were in the first place meant nothing. I was sick of people treating the biological aspect of a biological process like it was a mere trifle when after all it’s the thing that begins life we’re talking about. But I didn’t really care about that. The only thing that I hated was being called a “homophobe”, a bigot, just for holding a contrary viewpoint, even though I had no stereotypes whatsoever about gay people themselves and simply disagreed with one single thing they did. I didn’t go around making stereotypes about all non-Muslims and call them all Islamophobes. Indeed, these guys were the bigots for automatically branding me one just for not holding to their own values. And I still, even after changing my mind on the issue, find that disgusting, and will rush to people’s aid in a hot second about it. If someone makes stereotypes about gay people or fears them, they’re a homophobe. If they merely don’t approve of the act, if they have a different opinion from your own about it and do not judge the homosexual himself or make any assumptions about him whereas you make assumptions about them and call them names just for having certain religious beliefs, you’re the one who’s prejudiced. Period. End of discussion.

Anyway, I was sitting in a restaurant one day a few months ago when an unrelated train of thought caused me to realize kind of out of nowhere that if homosexual sex is immoral then so is adoption. Because parentage is also a relationship based around a biological process, and yet that doesn’t mean it has to be based around a biologically viable form of it. Adoption is not the way Mother Nature intended for parentage to work and yet it does work. In fact my mother was adopted. I wouldn’t be here in the first place if not for it. How is homosexuality any different? In both cases the spiritual and psychological bond is what really matters. Deciding not to be rash I turned it over in my head for a few days and even put in on the back burner but neither my conscious nor my subconscious mind could find any holes in the logic. The biological aspect, it turned out, really was more of a trifle after all, in the very grand scheme of things.

So now I support gay marriage. Actually I always did in a legalistic sense, as I’ve said, but I’m more into the issue itself. Although I will still not countenance hearing people being called “homophobes” just because they don’t. There is too much hate in response to hate, but more importantly there is too much of an assumption of hate. Too many things need to stop. For example, look at some of the comments we’ve had. Disgusting? Gross? Society hitting rock bottom? I’m sorry, aren’t there a lot of wars and stuff you could be saying this about instead?

[Insaanah]

I support gay marriage.

As a Muslim, do you believe in the Qur'an? If so, Allah says in the Qur'an that committing homosexual acts is an abomination (7:80-82, 27:54-55 etc). Would you agree with what Allah's said?

Do you also agree that in Islam, marriage is only between a man and woman?

if homosexual sex is immoral then so is adoption.

Adoption is nurturing and bringing up a child that doesn't for whatever reason have someone to nurture them, a praiseworthy act. The Prophet :saws: adopted Zaid. Homosexuality is fulfilling a sexual desire unlawfully with someone of the same sex. Are you implying that the Prophet :saws: in adopting Zaid, committed an immorality, and did something similar to homosexuality? (we seek Allah's refuge from that).

[IAmZamzam]

Haven't I already been over all that, Insaanah? If you failed to understand everything I said then I'm afraid I can't make myself any clearer. Sorry.

[IAmZamzam]

I didn't make my post to spark a debate. I made it as a call for everyone to cool it already. On both sides of the issue.

[GuestFellow]

Haven't I already been over all that, Insaanah? If you failed to understand everything I said then I'm afraid I can't make myself any clearer. Sorry.

:sl:

Can you please explain your post again?

You write very eloquently and this may confuse some members. I have an idea what your saying. If you can give a small summary, I will appreciate it.

[IAmZamzam]

It's a little difficult to summarize without losing such crucial details as to ensure misunderstandings. But the important thing is that when people talk about gay marriage everybody usually comes across as equally despicable. You have people on one side talking as though if it's made legal then society will somehow...I don't know, fall into a black hole or something, and saying that the issue is a sure sign of how nobody has any values anymore. Meanwhile where are their complaints about genuine atrocities like North Korea's vague threats of bringing nuclear winter on two or three different countries? And on the other side you have people practicing bigotry by calling everyone with certain religious views a bigot, just for not being exactly like themselves, even if they're not making any stereotypes about gay people at all and simply holding different values. Prejudiced because they're assuming people are prejudiced. They're hypocrites. There are hardly any good guys here. That's what I'm saying. There's nothing else I'm willing to talk about right now. I've said it all already and don't want to argue about it. I've done too much arguing lately.

[Insaanah]

Haven't I already been over all that, Insaanah? If you failed to understand everything I said then I'm afraid I can't make myself any clearer. Sorry.

I've re-read your post, and it doesn't address my questions. I'm not talking about bigotry or name calling or any of that.

I want to know, how you reconcile your belief in the Qur'an and your belief in Allah's telling us that homosexual acts are an abomination/immorality/lewdness/indecency (depending on which translation you use), with your support for such acts via gay marriage or gay unions. I don't understand how one can give support to what Allah has spoken against in such clear terms.

Your post also didn't address my second question, about your comparison of adoption being an immorality of the same level as homosexuality.

if homosexual sex is immoral then so is adoption

Adoption is nurturing and bringing up a child that doesn't for whatever reason have someone to nurture them, a praiseworthy act. The Prophet :saws: adopted Zaid. Homosexuality is fulfilling a sexual desire unlawfully with someone of the same sex. Are you implying that the Prophet :saws: in adopting Zaid, committed an immorality, and did something similar to homosexuality? (we seek Allah's refuge from that).

['Abd-al Latif]

So? For the vast majority of that period since Plato those same ancestors thought slavery was a good idea. Unless they were slaves, obviously. Fortunately we are not stuck in the past, and the attitudes of the past are today are regarded as unacceptable as often as not. Humanity is growing up. Just because our ancestors hated is no reason we should continue to hate. Hate always has been, and always will be, the biggest enemy of our species and a 'moral' code that teaches its preservation has little to recommend it, and no ultimate future.

Slavery was the result of war. Homosexuality was and still is a choice that has nothing to do with external forces beyond one's control. No one nation was ever forced to become homosexual as a result of war.

Humanity is only growing up as far as technological advancement is concerned because today an individual is only recognised and appraised by his business achievements. A lack of appreciation for integrity, principles and values leaves humanity more deteriorated than ever before. Unfortunately strong traits are now a thing of the past, a virtue that today's world is alien to.

[IAmZamzam]

Maybe you need to read it a third time, Insaanah. But again, I'm not doing to debate you anyway. It seems all I've done lately at these places is argue with people.

['Abd-al Latif]

Anyway, I was sitting in a restaurant one day a few months ago when an unrelated train of thought caused me to realize kind of out of nowhere that if homosexual sex is immoral then so is adoption. Because parentage is also a relationship based around a biological process, and yet that doesn’t mean it has to be based around a biologically viable form of it. Adoption is not the way Mother Nature intended for parentage to work and yet it does work. In fact my mother was adopted. I wouldn’t be here in the first place if not for it. How is homosexuality any different? In both cases the spiritual and psychological bond is what really matters. Deciding not to be rash I turned it over in my head for a few days and even put in on the back burner but neither my conscious nor my subconscious mind could find any holes in the logic. The biological aspect, it turned out, really was more of a trifle after all, in the very grand scheme of things.

So now I support gay marriage. Actually I always did in a legalistic sense, as I’ve said, but I’m more into the issue itself. Although I will still not countenance hearing people being called “homophobes” just because they don’t. There is too much hate in response to hate, but more importantly there is too much of an assumption of hate. Too many things need to stop. For example, look at some of the comments we’ve had. Disgusting? Gross? Society hitting rock bottom? I’m sorry, aren’t there a lot of wars and stuff you could be saying this about instead?

So your basis for all this is 'biological processes', or the lack of it? You are one seriously confused individual.

Adoption is the process of bringing a person (or thing, affair, matter etc) into a specific relationship like taking another's child as one's own child. This process includes a person assuming the responsibilities that a biological parent would normally be expected to take, but for whatever reason this responsibility is passed on to another. Due to the absense of the biological parent, another assumes the responsibility of nurturing and upbringing but not replacing actual biological parents. In fact, that's impossible. Your biological mother will always be your biological mother even if another person assumes this role. And this would only happen in exceptional circumstances.

Homosexuality on the other hand is sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex.

How on earth can you claim that the two are related and can be used as evidence to support one another?!

[IAmZamzam]

These are not inquiries you guys are bringing up, they're invitations to go into a nine-page long argument with you. Whatever your intentions that will still be the end result. It always is. I've been doing too much of that lately and I quit. I have fibromyalgia. It was an accident that I ended up back on this board in the first place.

['Abd-al Latif]

My advice is not to jump to conclusions so hastily. Keep on pondering and thinking because you're bound (probably) to see the falseness of your own conclusions.

[titus]

It's just Islam states homosexuals cannot engage in any sexual relations. That is what it boils down to

Does it say that nobody can engage in such acts, or that Muslims cannot engage in such acts?

[Tyrion]

I never denied their existence, albeit minute they were in number and secret lives they lived. I said they were (rightly) never accepted in any society and, regardless of place and time (except the current), were sentenced with the death penalty because they were never considered normal human beings.

So people should have their humanity stripped because of their sexuality? Are you being serious?

It's just Islam states homosexuals cannot engage in any sexual relations. That is what it boils down to.

Good thing this has nothing to do with Islamic states and Muslims being forced to engage in sexual relations.

[GuestFellow]

Does it say that nobody can engage in such acts, or that Muslims cannot engage in such acts?

If you read my response again (copy and pasted it below), I said to ignore that statement. That statement was going to be a response to another post but I accidentally directed it at you. Just ignore that.

It's just Islam states homosexuals cannot engage in any sexual relations. That is what it boils down to

^ Sorry ignore that part.

I think it will have an impact. Like homosexual couples will be more accepted than before. For example, it won't be unusual to have two dads. I don't think I said anything about fear

.

[GuestFellow]

Good thing this has nothing to do with Islamic states and Muslims being forced to engage in sexual relations.

What do you mean?

[Pygoscelis]

Sorry, you are late brother.

Incest is the new gay :cry:

http://2reachout.wordpress.com/2012/...s-the-new-gay/

I read this article and found it interesting. So much so that I started a thread on another board, one mostly with atheists, and it led to some debate over other taboo types of marriage, including polygamy. It would be interesting to get your thoughts on some of what is being said there if any muslims are interested.

[link removed]

[Cabdullahi]

More like mirage than a proper marriage. It's an illusion, always will be, even if a child is produced it will be done artificially, and therefore gay marriage shall always be a mirage.

We should allow all persons willing to marry anything and everything the opportunity to do so because they are born that way, it's only fair right?.


Woman marries her own house

Where will the buck stop?

[Tyrion]

More like mirage than a proper marriage

What's a "proper marriage" in your eyes? Nikah? In that case, all non Muslim "marriages" would be fake in your eyes, so what's the issue now? This marriage seems to be driven by a desire for equal recognition when it comes to benefits and such, through a bond recognized by the government. No mosque or church has to ever recognize them as married in the sight of God, through our definitions of marriage.

[May Ayob]

I honestly don't get why some people are very passionate about the issue of gay marriage it just seems like sometimes some people prefer to discuss those issues so keenly but they , and sadly, on the other hand don't get as much excited when it comes to discussing real issues concerning a huge number of people living in this world such as poverty or hunger or homelessness. Why would it matter to us whether gay marriage is legalized in England or anywhere else, as long as its not a muslim country thats making it legal then why should it matter. And what possible gain can anyone benefit from ranting like this anyway,it's useless they've already set out on their direction that they're heading to and now even the arguement of inter racial marriages being banned many decades ago is used as an refution for legalizing gay and apparently even incest marriage more so, when the clear point is they're not even related at all using arguements like saying exogamous marriages were once socially forbiden at a time back then in history in parallel with gay and incest marriage is total failure in comparison plain and simple. For one reason, both parties involved back then were of opposite genders but were distinguished by social and economic classes. Although I dont personally have a thing against gays as individuals I do believe that they should kindly pay more effort in sparring society the hassle that this issue has caused. Ahat makes a gay person think that he or she is any less a humanbeing in society anyway I mean none of them were born with a label branded in their forehead anouncing their sexual orientation and where has any place in the world denied them acces to basic human rights most especially those living in more economically advanced regions in the world so they are sort of priviliged in way. I just think we've had this conversation so many times before and its not really getting us anywhere and evetytime thise issue has occured we end up either just constantly repeating ourselves or at the very least caught up in the middle of a winding swirl of clashingly opposing views. I deeply hope that we shift our attention to other matters of significanyly similar importance.

[Independent]

where has any place in the world denied them acces to basic human rights most especially those living in more economically advanced regions in the world I mean they are sort of priviliged in way

Perhaps you are not aware, but gays have been discriminated against very severely indeed in any number of societies through the ages - socially, economically and physically (very often to the point of death). It's because people are now aware of this, and ashamed of what happened, that gay rights have become more prominent.

Your other observation - that we should all stop worrying so much about this issue - i entirely agree with.

[IAmZamzam]

But there is a reason why the arguments against both gay and interracial marriage tend to be exactly the same, practically to the letter. Status quo is everything to this species, isn't it? On the other hand, most of the arguments listed there obviously stem from fear in some way or other as slippery slope fallacy-based things often seem to in general. One way or another it's certainly not a mere coincidence.

Okay, now I'm done with the thread.

[Pygoscelis]

I honestly don't get why some people are very passionate about the issue of gay marriage it just seems like sometimes some people prefer to discuss those issues so keenly but they sadly, on the other hand don't get as much excited when it comes to discussing real issues concerning a huge number of people living in this world such as poverty or hunger or homelessness. Why would it matter to us whether gay marriage is legalized in England or anywhere else, as long as its not a muslim country thats making it legal then why should it matter. And what possible gain can anyone benefit from ranting like this anyway,it's useless they've already set out on their direction that they're heading to and now even the arguement of inter racial marriages being banned many decades ago is used as an refution for legalizing gay and apparently even incest marriage right now, when the clear point is theyre not even related at all using arguements like saying exogamous marriages were once socially forbiden at a time back then in history in paralel with gay and incest marriage is total failure in comparison plain and simple. For one reason, both parties involved back then were of opposite genders but were distinguished by social and economic classes. Although I dont personally have a thing against gays as individuals I do believe that they should kindly pay more effort in sparring society the hassle that this issue has caused what makes a gay homosexual think that he she is any less a humanbeing in society anyway I mean none of them were born with a label branded in their forehead anouncing their sexual orientstion and where has any place in the world denied them acces to basic human rights most especially those living in more economically advanced regions in the world I mean they are sort of priviliged in way. I just think we've had this conversation manytimes before and its not really getting us anywhere and evetytime thise issue has occured we end up wither just constantly repeating ourselves or at the very least caught up in the middle of a winding swirl of clashingly opposing views. I deeply hope that we shift our attention to other matters of significanyly similar importance.

Did you just tell gays to go back in the closet, or did I read that wrong?

[Urban Turban]

I read this article and found it interesting. So much so that I started a thread on another board, one mostly with atheists, and it led to some debate over other taboo types of marriage, including polygamy. It would be interesting to get your thoughts on some of what is being said there if any muslims are interested.

http://www.--------.org/showthread.php?t=322841

The author of that blog is someone who I know quite well - inshaAllah I'll ask him to respond.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Sadly I have to agree with the theory of evolution, it recognizes the advantage of one man and one woman as being the greater good path to survival. Two men or two women just don’t tick the evolutionary boxes of equality.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[May Ayob]

Did you just tell gays to go back in the closet, or did I read that wrong?

Um... no, my post was mostly adressed to muslims on this forum and partially to the gay community. I was requesting that we as muslims should mind our own business when it comes to things like these, because this event is not happening in a muslim country; if it was that would've been an entirely different case. I was also saying that it's absolutely worthless for a muslim to go on complaining about what's going on in non muslim societies for two reasons, one is that they're not obligated to conform to islamic code of rules, the second is that it's good for nothing; in other words useless because islam and even religion generally doesn't have a solid base foundation in the making of legislative law in those countries. So what other than an unpleasant headache can any muslim get from these types of discussions anyway. I believe that the previous thread made before about the arch bishop of Canterburry is a good example of what I'm trying to say here. What I was directing at gays in general and with no mean of offence which is possibly what looks like you've misunderstood is that if being gay is not really the end of the world, then why act like it is ? unless you do believe it is,then there's no need for unnecessary fussing. Also, sometimes it's just not wise disclosing your sexual orientation publicly because simply some people dont need to know. Another thing is that homosexuality doesn't have a clear materialistic means of identity; in other words, I would've probably had no clue that the person standing right next to me is gay unless she or he has told me so, so really the question is then: before I was informed, there's a great chance I would treat him her the same as anybody else ,but after I was informed would the same still apply? for me probably yes for another person though? I wouldn't really know. I doubt anyone would treat someone different before they were told that this person is gay, so even though they are currently gay they would be treated as any typical person. Because they're people for one, and also because in many or most cases you wouldn't even know. And for that arguement saying that most gay people get discriminated against I would have to disagree. For one thing it's because I'm sure we've all witnessed alot of cases where kids at school or even adults get falsely labelled gay or dike simply because they're not reprsenting the gender roles society has set up or simply of bullying. So in some situations it's not really about being gay as much as it's about the mentality of some fellow people of thinking that the labelling another person gay is humiliating and using it as a derogatory term. Again with the emphasis that the people in question here are not even gay in first place. So, being called gay or any other slur that indicates being homosexual where in you're not, would be discrimination against non gays in the sense of false branding to gay category. If this sounds hateful to you I didn't intend it to be and for myself I don't really care of anyone's orientation as long as they don't push them on to me. The last thing I wanted to say is that it would certainly be more delighting to see more threads being made about poverty or hunger and hopefully if that happens they don't end up in a debate of whether or not a person would feel reluctant to offer another person in need aid or rescue if they knew that they are homosexual. In a nutshell though, no I'm not sending anyone to any closet of anykind and I think that these are my views in parallel with muslims and as far as I know everyone has a set of moral boundaries that they've put out for themselves and everyone is deserves to be respected.

One thing I'd like to add, I'm still not convinced that interracial and gay marriage are on the same footing in spite of looking into the link referenced above.