various levels of sin and punishment

[theplains]

As-salamu alaykum,

So you're saying that a person who killed 1 person should receive the same punishment from God as a person who killed as many as Hitler?

Hello,

I hope you don't mind but I started a new thread more in line with our conversation.

So you're saying that a person who killed 1 person should receive the same punishment from God as a person who killed as many as Hitler?

No. I was replying to your last statement that "I guess it's because Christians don't believe
God will punish them for any sin, so it doesn't really make sense to categorize sins"

I don't see a mention of high / medium / and low sins in the Bible. Do you find it mentioned
in the Quran?

Regarding the situation where people receive the same punishment, I think a case can
be made with Islam too. Suppose you have these 3 persons:

1] Person A killed ten people but does not ask for forgivness.
2] Person B killed one million people but does not ask for forgiveness.
3] Person C did not kill any person but he rejected the message of Muhammad (assuming
he was a true prophet).

So in Islam, all three would wind up in hell since they would be considered infidels. Even
though their suffering would differ, their destiny is still the same; hell.

It is mentioned in sura 22 - "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two
opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments
of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby
that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked
rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven
back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning" (verses 19-22)

But to be honest with you, I am not qualified to discuss the various forms of punishment
that God has in store for disbelievers.

No, I'm referring to a doctor who has a "universal" cure for something. And your argument isn't supported
by the New Testament as Jesus (PBUH) said he was sent for the Lost sheep of Israel, therefore it can't be "universal".

Matthew 15:24 - He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (ESV)

He went only to them. He did not go to India as some people have taught. Later he told his
disciples, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation" (Mark 16:15 ESV).
The gospel is what Jesus taught and did. The rest of the New Testament (after the 4 gospels)
is a record of their journeys. This is why Christians go as evangelists around the world. Jesus
told them to go.

Whichever way you look at it, if Christians believe Jesus (PBUH) existed throughout time, why couldn't he descend
upon Moses (PBUH) if Jesus (PBUH) was truly a God?

He could, but we don't have a record that he came down in human form to Moses.

When Jesus hung on the cross, his enemies said "You who would destroy the temple and
rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the
cross .. He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come
down now from the cross, and we will believe in him" (Matthew 27:40,42)

He could have come down but he didn't.

Or are you implying that Moses (PBUH) was speaking to the Father and NOT to the son?

I don't know if God in the burning bush was represented by the Father or the Son.

May peace be upon you,
Jim

[Indian Bro]

Hello,

I hope you don't mind but I started a new thread more in line with our conversation.

Hey! I had no idea that you started a new thread, lol.

No. I was replying to your last statement that "I guess it's because Christians don't believe
God will punish them for any sin, so it doesn't really make sense to categorize sins"

Christians don't believe God will punish them for any sin? What do Christians base this belief on? I would prefer a quote from Jesus (PBUH).

I don't see a mention of high / medium / and low sins in the Bible. Do you find it mentioned
in the Quran?

If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise]. [4:31]

It is also mentioned in Hadith as well, remember Muslims must follow the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), so you can't disregard the Hadith as well.

Regarding the situation where people receive the same punishment, I think a case can
be made with Islam too. Suppose you have these 3 persons:

1] Person A killed ten people but does not ask for forgivness.
2] Person B killed one million people but does not ask for forgiveness.
3] Person C did not kill any person but he rejected the message of Muhammad (assuming
he was a true prophet).

So in Islam, all three would wind up in hell since they would be considered infidels. Even
though their suffering would differ, their destiny is still the same; hell.

Well, no one really knows what punishment people will receive for different sins (e.g. murder).

The only people who will be punished in Hell eternally with no chance of escape are those who disbelieve in God and associate others with Him in their worship. The Qur'an says, “But those who reject God, for them will be the Fire of Hell. No term shall be appointed for them, so they should die, nor shall its punishment be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one!” (35:36).


The Qur'an says, “Those who reject faith, and die rejecting, on them is God's curse, and the curse of the angels, and of all mankind. They will abide therein [Hell]. Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will respite be their lot” (Qur'an 2:161–162).


Hypocrites are equated with disbelievers, and they face the same punishment. “The hypocrites, men and women, are alike. They enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and tighten their purse strings. They have forgotten God, so He has forgotten them. Verily the hypocrites are rebellious and perverse. God has promised the hypocrites, men and women, and the rejecters of faith, the Fire of Hell. Therein shall they dwell; sufficient is it for them. For them is the curse of God, and an enduring punishment” (Qur'an 9:68–69).

As for those who commit sins such as murder, adultery, etc, we don't know what sort of punishment awaits them in the Day of Judgement, that wisdom is with Allah (swt) as far as I know.

It is mentioned in sura 22 - "These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two
opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments
of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby
that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked
rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven
back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning" (verses 19-22)

But to be honest with you, I am not qualified to discuss the various forms of punishment
that God has in store for disbelievers.

Sorry, but I feel you are kind of derailing from the topic. Are we talking about the punishment of murder or punishment of shirk (disbelief)? The punishment of disbelief has been mentioned in various verses in the Qur'an, but I don't think there's any mention of the punishment of sins such as murder, adultery, etc, on the Day of Judgement.

Matthew 15:24 - He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (ESV)

He went only to them. He did not go to India as some people have taught. Later he told his disciples, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation" (Mark 16:15 ESV). The gospel is what Jesus taught and did. The rest of the New Testament (after the 4 gospels)
is a record of their journeys. This is why Christians go as evangelists around the world. Jesus told them to go.

I wouldn't ask this question if all Christians were the descendants of the lost sheep of Israel, lol. The reason I'm asking this question is because there are Christians who believe that Jesus (PBUH) was sent for mankind which is contrary to what Jesus (PBUH) said in the Bible. If Jesus (PBUH) was a god, why did he say that he came down only for the lost sheep of Israel, why didn't he say he came down for mankind. Why do Christians assume something which is contrary to what their "god" said. Why did the Christian god give such a big preference to the lost sheep of Israel over mankind?

From Matthew 15:24 we learn that Jesus (PBUH) was sent for the lost sheep of Israel and then in Mark 16:15 we learn that Jesus (PBUH) tells the disciples to spread the word of Jesus (PBUH) to mankind. These two verses contradict each other. If Jesus (PBUH) was sent for mankind (which includes Jews and non-Jews) then why did Jesus (PBUH) need to test the Canaanite woman who approached him in distress asking him to help her. If he was sent for mankind then he didn't need to test her faith.

He could, but we don't have a record that he came down in human form to Moses.

Moses (PBUH) never spoke of ever seeing God, so it would be safe to assume that he never did see God. Even if we assume Moses did see God, why would he hide it, especially when you consider that he was a Prophet?

When Jesus hung on the cross, his enemies said "You who would destroy the temple and
rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the
cross .. He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come
down now from the cross, and we will believe in him" (Matthew 27:40,42)

He could have come down but he didn't.

There's a huge difference between this example and Exodus 33:20. You're ignoring the context of Exodus 33:20-23. In Exodus 33:20 you have a Prophet asking God to show his face, and God chose NOT to fulfill the believers wish but instead showed the believer (Moses (PBUH)) a sign which made the believer fall to the ground and submit. Whereas in Mathew 27 you have a man hanging on a cross and disbelievers asking this man to show a sign which will make them believe this man is a god. Can you honestly compare God coming down from the heavens to a man coming down from a cross?

I don't know if God in the burning bush was represented by the Father or the Son.

How could you say that? I thought God was represented by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Or was the Son non-existent at that time?

And why did Moses (PBUH) only get to see "parts" of Gods back while the sinners of Israel got to see gods entire body. Christian apologists claim God was too shy to show Moses (PBUH) his face, but then what happened to gods shyness when he was circumcised in Israel?

May peace be upon you,
Jim

Wa'alaikumsalam

[theplains]

Hey! I had no idea that you started a new thread, lol.

No problem. I thought the system would have sent you a notification when I referenced
the quote but maybe it does not work when a new thread is started.

Christians don't believe God will punish them for any sin? What do Christians base this belief on? I would prefer a quote from Jesus (PBUH).

Maybe some confusion here. I did not state this. It appeared you said this in a previous
post.

If you avoid the major sins which you are forbidden, We will remove from you your lesser sins and admit you to a noble entrance [into Paradise]. [4:31]


It is also mentioned in Hadith as well, remember Muslims must follow the Qur'an and the teachings of Muhammad (Peace be upon him), so you can't disregard the Hadith as well.

Thanks.


Are eating pork and food sacrificed to idols (2:173), interest (2:275), killing game on the
pilgrimage (5:94) specifically mentioned as major or lesser sins or do Muslim scholars do
the classification?

Sorry, but I feel you are kind of derailing from the topic. Are we talking about the punishment of murder or punishment of
shirk (disbelief)? The punishment of disbelief has been mentioned in various verses in the Qur'an, but I don't think there's any
mention of the punishment of sins such as murder, adultery, etc, on the Day of Judgement.

Sorry. Didn't mean to. I had always assumed that unrepented sins of murder and adultery
would be punishable by a place in hell.

I wouldn't ask this question if all Christians were the descendants of the lost sheep of Israel, lol. The reason I'm
asking this question is because there are Christians who believe that Jesus (PBUH) was sent for mankind which is
contrary to what Jesus (PBUH) said in the Bible. If Jesus (PBUH) was a god, why did he say that he came down only
for the lost sheep of Israel, why didn't he say he came down for mankind. Why do Christians assume something which
is contrary to what their "god" said. Why did the Christian god give such a big preference to the lost sheep of Israel
over mankind?

Jesus said "I was sent only TO the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). I
understand your point but the meaning of "to" in that verse changes if you use your word
"for". Jesus also said "The Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost" (Luke 19:10).
All humans are lost. That is why he told his disciples "Go therefore and make disciples of
all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit," (Matthew 28:19).


But true. Jesus came only TO the children of Israel at that time. He did not go to India,
Russia, China, etc.


Why did God give a preference to the children of Israel? This was the covenant he made
with Abraham through Isaac.

If Jesus (PBUH) was sent for mankind (which includes Jews and non-Jews) then why did Jesus (PBUH)
need to test the Canaanite woman who approached him in distress asking him to help her. If he was sent for
mankind then he didn't need to test her faith.

Sorry. I don't understand the reference of the Canaanite woman you mention.

Moses (PBUH) never spoke of ever seeing God, so it would be safe to assume that he never did see God. Even if
we assume Moses did see God, why would he hide it, especially when you consider that he was a Prophet?

I don't think Moses ever beheld God in his full glory but we do have a record that God
appeared to him in the burning bush and spoke to him. Apparently his face shone when
Aaron saw him later. When Moses spent 40 days on Mount Sinai he did not return and
tell the people everything that happened on the Mount. This did not disqualify him from
being a Prophet.

There's a huge difference between this example and Exodus 33:20. You're ignoring the context
of Exodus 33:20-23. In Exodus 33:20 you have a Prophet asking God to show his face, and God chose
NOT to fulfill the believers wish *but instead showed the believer (Moses (PBUH)) a sign which made
the believer fall to the ground and submit.* Whereas in Mathew 27 you have a man hanging on a
cross and disbelievers asking this man to show a sign which will make them believe this man is a god.
Can you honestly compare God coming down from the heavens to a man coming down from a cross?

Exodus 33:18-20 - Moses said, "Please show me your glory. And he said, "I will make all
my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The Lord.' And I will
be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."


I didn't compare Exodus 33 with Matthew 27. At least I don't think so.

How could you say that? I thought God was represented by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Or was the Son non-existent at that time?

The Father/Son/Holy Spirit have always existed as one God. But I don't know how
to clearly explain who appeared to Moses in the burning bush other than say God.
Doesn't make sense, I know. I feel inadequate to speculate when it was not revealed.

Assuming Muslims believe that Allah appeared to Moses in the burning bush, was
Allah in the burning bush and in heaven at the same time? Or did Allah just throw
his voice into the burning bush?

And why did Moses (PBUH) only get to see "parts" of Gods back while the sinners of Israel got to
see gods entire body?

It was God veiled in a human body. Some of these sinners in Israel became his disciples
when they believed his message (John the Baptist, Peter, Mark, Luke, Matthew, etc).
After the resurrection, Jesus appeared to the disciples and addressed 'doubting Thomas'
who also saw him - "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those
who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). Peter denied knowing Christ
but Jesus still kept him. The scriptures record that despite Jesus telling his disciples
about his upcoming death and resurrection, the disciples did not understand and believe.
Even after seeing him, they thought they were seeing a ghost or spirit. In time, they
came to believe. Their fear of being persecuted by the Jews had turned into boldness
into preaching about the risen Christ.

Christian apologists claim God was too shy to show Moses (PBUH) his face, but then
what happened to gods shyness when he was circumcised in Israel?

That's news to me. I never heard of a shy God.

May peace be upon you,
Jim

[Indian Bro]

Maybe some confusion here. I did not state this. It appeared you said this in a previous
post.

Sorry, my mistake. I read that your earlier post said:

I don't think God has a category of minor sins and major sins. All sin is repugnant to a
holy God.

That's why I asked you if you think a person who killed one person would receive the same punishment from God as a person who killed 100 people. All sin is indeed repugnant to God, but that doesn't necessarily mean that sins aren't categorized. Would you say the sin for telling an offensive joke is on the same level as adultery?

Are eating pork and food sacrificed to idols (2:173), interest (2:275), killing game on the
pilgrimage (5:94) specifically mentioned as major or lesser sins or do Muslim scholars do
the classification?

I think you should ask a scholar this question, bit I'm guessing that they usually derive rulings on what is a major sin and a minor sin based on the intensity of the punishment mentioned in the Qur'an and Hadith. Adultery, interest and eating pork or food from animals sacrificed to other than Allah (swt) are major sins though. Minor sins are such as not lowering your gaze, using foul language, your conduct, etc. Minor sins doesn't mean they are insignificant or "tiny" sins, you just can't compare them to sins like adultery, but we must still avoid minor sins. I also read somewhere that there is a Hadith where if a person stays away from major sins but is heedless about his minor sins to an extent that his minor sins become like a mountain it could lead that person to Hell. That is why we Muslims repent everyday, so Allah (swt) may forgive our minor sins.

Sorry. Didn't mean to. I had always assumed that unrepented sins of murder and adultery
would be punishable by a place in hell.

There will indeed be a severe punishment for those sins if one does not repent, and the punishment could be Hell, but I cannot say whether the punishment for those sins will be Hell or some other punishment which we are unaware of.

Jesus said "I was sent only TO the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). I
understand your point but the meaning of "to" in that verse changes if you use your word
"for". Jesus also said "The Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost" (Luke 19:10).
All humans are lost. That is why he told his disciples "Go therefore and make disciples of
all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit," (Matthew 28:19).

The keyword isn't "to" or "for", but rather, "only". If Jesus (PBUH) had said "I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", your argument would make sense, but the fact that he used the word "only" shows that he wasn't sent for anyone other than the lost sheep of Israel. I will try to prove my argument further below with the example of the Canaanite woman.


I have no problem with Luke 19:10, because the word "lost" is directed towards the lost children of Israel as mentioned in Matthew 15:24.


If you take my argument into consideration, you can clearly see a contradiction between Matthew 15:24 and 28:19.

But true. Jesus came only TO the children of Israel at that time. He did not go to India,
Russia, China, etc.

I'm not really bothered whether Jesus went to India or Russia because even if he did it still doesn't justify that he was sent for mankind. What bothers me is why Jesus (PBUH) claims he was sent "only" to the lost sheep of Israel.

Why did God give a preference to the children of Israel? This was the covenant he made
with Abraham through Isaac.

God definitely bestowed great favor towards the children of Israel which no one can deny appears as though he showed preference to them over other communities, however, I'm not able to understand why the Christian god gave such a big preference to the "lost sheep of Israel" over the Prophets who came before and the rest of mankind. What made those particular sinners (lost sheep) more special than the entire mankind to witness God in the flesh? If you take the Old Testament as a reference you can clearly see that Moses (PBUH) was clearly not worthy enough to see God.

Sorry. I don't understand the reference of the Canaanite woman you mention.

The Canaanite woman wanted Jesus (PBUH) to help her, but Jesus (PBUH) didn't fulfill this obligation upon her request. The reason was because she was from the Canaan community. Had she been among the lost sheep then Jesus (PBUH) wouldn't need to test her faith and would heal her, which is why Jesus (PBUH) responded to her request "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". Then he tested her faith and she passed, and as a result he helped her.


My point is, if Jesus (PBUH) was sent for mankind then why would he need to test the faith of a Canaanite woman in order to help her. If Jesus (PBUH) was sent for mankind then aren't the people of Canaanite part of mankind? This proves to me that Jesus (PBUH) was only sent for the lost sheep of Israel and not mankind.

I don't think Moses ever beheld God in his full glory but we do have a record that God
appeared to him in the burning bush and spoke to him. Apparently his face shone when
Aaron saw him later. When Moses spent 40 days on Mount Sinai he did not return and
tell the people everything that happened on the Mount. This did not disqualify him from
being a Prophet.

I don't think Moses (PBUH) saw God as well. There's nothing in the scriptures which hints that Moses (PBUH) had seen God, not in the Old Testament or the Qur'an.

Exodus 33:18-20 - Moses said, "Please show me your glory. And he said, "I will make all
my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The Lord.' And I will
be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."




I didn't compare Exodus 33 with Matthew 27. At least I don't think so.

To me it appeared as though you were comparing those two situations. This is what you posted.

He could, but we don't have a record that he came down in human form to Moses.


When Jesus hung on the cross, his enemies said "You who would destroy the temple and
rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the
cross .. He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come
down now from the cross, and we will believe in him" (Matthew 27:40,42)


He could have come down but he didn't.

In both cases you are referring to situations where God could have done something but chose not to, hence why I thought you are comparing the situations. I explained why you cant compare the two situations in my previous post.

The Father/Son/Holy Spirit have always existed as one God. But I don't know how
to clearly explain who appeared to Moses in the burning bush other than say God.
Doesn't make sense, I know. I feel inadequate to speculate when it was not revealed.

It makes sense to me though, Moses (PBUH) was speaking to the Father ! I'll explain why. Let's assume Moses (PBUH) was speaking to the Son, then why would the son say "No one can see my face and live" and then show everyone his face approximately 1,400 years later? God cannot contradict himself, so we have no option but to assume Moses (PBUH) was speaking to The Father. Where was Jesus (PBUH) during this conversation? Surely the son was more than capable to come down and show his face to fulfill the request of Moses (PBUH).

Assuming Muslims believe that Allah appeared to Moses in the burning bush, was
Allah in the burning bush and in heaven at the same time? Or did Allah just throw
his voice into the burning bush?

Muslims don't believe Allah (swt) was in the burning bush. This is what the Qur'an tells us about the meeting between Moses (PBUH) and Allah (swt).


And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You." [ Allah ] said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers." [7:143]

It was God veiled in a human body. Some of these sinners in Israel became his disciples
when they believed his message (John the Baptist, Peter, Mark, Luke, Matthew, etc).
After the resurrection, Jesus appeared to the disciples and addressed 'doubting Thomas'
who also saw him - "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those
who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29). Peter denied knowing Christ
but Jesus still kept him. The scriptures record that despite Jesus telling his disciples
about his upcoming death and resurrection, the disciples did not understand and believe.
Even after seeing him, they thought they were seeing a ghost or spirit. In time, they
came to believe. Their fear of being persecuted by the Jews had turned into boldness
into preaching about the risen Christ.

Ahhh, the resurrection is just another huge debate in itself, lol.

May peace be upon you,
Jim

Wa'alaykum as-salam

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[theplains]

That's why I asked you if you think a person who killed one person would receive the same punishment from God as a person who killed 100 people. All sin is indeed repugnant to God, but that doesn't necessarily
mean that sins aren't categorized. Would you say the sin for telling an offensive joke is on the same level as
adultery?

On a human level, I can see how they could be classified as varying levels of sin. But on
God's level, He may regard it equally. For instance, some people would not view Adam's
disobedience in the Garden of Eden as a serious sin and yet all mankind is considered fallen
due to that rebellion and banishment.

Maybe a quote from the Bible would add some light:

" I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they
that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in
through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and .....mongers, and
murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie".

All these different types of sins seem to get the same punishment (which is banishment).

There will indeed be a severe punishment for those sins if one does not repent, and the punishment
could be Hell, but I cannot say whether the punishment for those sins will be Hell or some other punishment
which we are unaware of"

Does the Quran talk about a third place?

If you take my argument into consideration, you can clearly see a contradiction between Matthew 15:24 and 28:19.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (KJV)
Mat 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (ESV)
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (KJV)

Maybe we are getting stuck on the semantics of the word sent. Jesus was sent only to the
lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was not sent (as in the incarnation) to China, India,
etc. But his message is for all so he commissioned his disciples to preach to all the nations.

By the way, did Muhammad give this commission?

The Canaanite woman wanted Jesus (PBUH) to help her, but Jesus (PBUH) didn't fulfill this obligation upon her request.

Let me know the reference you are talking about. I'll look it up.

Muslims don't believe Allah (swt) was in the burning bush. This is what the Qur'an tells us about the meeting between Moses (PBUH) and Allah (swt).

Was there a burning bush in the Quran?

Ahhh, the resurrection is just another huge debate in itself, lol.

Something reserved for people face to face, lol.

Peace,
Jim

[Indian Bro]

On a human level, I can see how they could be classified as varying levels of sin. But on
God's level, He may regard it equally. For instance, some people would not view Adam's
disobedience in the Garden of Eden as a serious sin and yet all mankind is considered fallen
due to that rebellion and banishment.

Maybe a quote from the Bible would add some light:

" I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they
that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in
through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and .....mongers, and
murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie".

All these different types of sins seem to get the same punishment (which is banishment).

I did some research and asked about this subject and I've been told that all sinners will most probably be punished in Hell, however there are different levels of Hell (Allah Almighty knows best). As we know from the Qur'an

Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire - and never will you find for them a helper - [4:145]

We can assume that the lowest depths of Hell is the worst punishment, and we can also assume from this that Hell has different levels. So we can derive that the level of punishment differs depending on the intensity of the sin committed.

Also there is a Hadith which shows us that the severity of Hell can differ among people,

Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 76 :: Hadith 569
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
I heard Allah's Apostles when his uncle, Abu Talib had been mentioned in his presence, saying, "May be my intercession will help him (Abu Talib) on the Day of Resurrection so that he may be put in a shallow place in the Fire, with fire reaching his ankles and causing his brain to boil."

Abu Talib was a Kafir.

Does the Quran talk about a third place?

Not as far as I know.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (KJV)
Mat 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (ESV)
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (KJV)

Maybe we are getting stuck on the semantics of the word sent. Jesus was sent only to the
lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was not sent (as in the incarnation) to China, India,
etc. But his message is for all so he commissioned his disciples to preach to all the nations.

You presented to me two different versions of translation of Mat 15:24, but it still shows that Jesus (PBUH) was sent exclusively for the lost sheep of Israel. To prove this claim further, we should refer to the context of the verse

²¹ Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
²² A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
²³ Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
²⁴ He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

If Jesus (PBUH) was sent to mankind, why ignore the woman just because she was from Canaan?

By the way, did Muhammad give this commission?

There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah (swt) talks to the children of Israel, the Arabs and also Mankind.

Here's one verse which proves our Prophet (PBUH) was sent for all the worlds (not just mankind, but also the jin-kind)

And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. [21:107]

Also, there is a Hadith where the Prophet (PBUH) himself states he was sent to mankind and not just the Arabs.

Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Rubbing hands and feet with dust (Tayammum), Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331)"

Let me know the reference you are talking about. I'll look it up.

Matthew 15:21-28

Was there a burning bush in the Quran?

With regards to the "burning bush" in the Qur'an,

And has the story of Moses reached you? - When he saw a fire and said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance." And when he came to it, he was called, "O Moses, Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa. [20:9-12]

And in another Surah it is mentioned:

And when Moses had completed the term and was traveling with his family, he perceived from the direction of the mount a fire. He said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire. Perhaps I will bring you from there [some] information or burning wood from the fire that you may warm yourselves." But when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in a blessed spot - from the tree, "O Moses, indeed I am Allah , Lord of the worlds." [28:29-30]

The words "burning bush" are not mentioned in the Qur'an but in the commentary (Tafsir Ibn Kathir which can be found by clicking here) it is mentioned:

He found the fire burning in a green bush on the side of the mountain adjoining the valley, and he stood there amazed at what he was seeing.

So we can observe through the Qur'an that there could possibly have been a burning bush but I don't know how this is related to the topic?

Something reserved for people face to face, lol.

Maybe, but there are actually some interesting discussions on it even in this Forum

Peace,
Jim

Salam

[theplains]

I did some research and asked about this subject and I've been told that all sinners will be punished in Hell, however there are different levels of Hell. As
we know from the Qur'an

Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire - and never will
you find for them a helper - [4:145]

*Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 76 :: Hadith 569*

Thank you for those references. 4:145 says that the hypocrites are in the lowest depths
of hell, where the punishment is the worst.

Does this mean that murderers, adulterers, and blasphemers are in higher depths of hell?
What does a hypocrite do that puts him in the lowest section?

I created a new thread "Was the message of Jesus only for Israel?" to answer some of
the other questions that you raised.

Peace,
Jim

[Indian Bro]

Thank you for those references. 4:145 says that the hypocrites are in the lowest depths
of hell, where the punishment is the worst.

Does this mean that murderers, adulterers, and blasphemers are in higher depths of hell?
What does a hypocrite do that puts him in the lowest section?

I created a new thread "Was the message of Jesus only for Israel?" to answer some of
the other questions that you raised.

Peace,
Jim

Salam Jim,

Check the link below, perhaps it will give you more insight about the Islamic view on hypocrites.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/12387

[theplains]

Salam Jim,

Check the link below, perhaps it will give you more insight about the Islamic view on hypocrites.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/12387

Thanks,
Jim

[ccc]

There is a saying about the real meaning of the punishment: "The gates of the hell are locked from inside"
The christian understanding of sin and punishment is not the usual one. Ore sins are sins only because we refuse God's goodness and love, and our refuse has the power of becoming permanent, because of our free will. The hell is not a place where we are punished and were God makes us suffer in order to pay evil with evil. God's love is present even in hell, and the hell is a torture, in fact the torture that we will feel because of the presence of the divine Love, which is like a fire for those who refuse it. But those whose hearts will be healed will be filled with divine love become flames united with the divine eternal fire of love". Those who refuse God will be also tortured be their own souls, as saint Isaac the Syrian says:

"those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love.... It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God's love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love's power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it."

[Amigo]

Yes.
That should be easy to understand for those who believe that God is everywhere.
Since no one can escape the presence of God, then the feeling in his presence is what we describe as Heaven or Hell depending on the person.
Of course when we die, our fate are sealed forever. So we are confirmed for Heaven or for Hell.

[ccc]

with no intention to sustain this point, only to make a joke which maybe comes from a Christian root, if you think about God's love and our lack of understanding, maybe, but just maybe, we could think that somehow at a little apocatastasis. But without saying it will take place, and without trying to excuse our sins. Don't take it seriously, i only wanted to be a little human

[Indian Bro]

As-salamu alaykum,

Sorry to bump this thread, but there was a small discussion going on in this thread about God appearing to Moses (PBUH) in the burning bush.

Assuming Muslims believe that Allah appeared to Moses in the burning bush, was
Allah in the burning bush and in heaven at the same time? Or did Allah just throw
his voice into the burning bush?

I think the following video can give more insight about this topic from a Muslim perspective:

[theplains]

As-salamu alaykum,

Sorry to bump this thread, but there was a small discussion going on in this thread about God appearing to Moses (PBUH) in the burning bush.

Thank you. I will have a look.

Jim