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*charisma*
02-16-2013, 11:59 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

I've seen this quote several times before, but yesterday, a friend posted this as a status and it got several likes:

"The sins that you do in private kills the heart more than the sins that you do in public, because it means that you value the eyes of the people more than you value the sight of Allah. You are more worried about people catching you sinning than Allah seeing you."

-Imam Ibn Qudamah

Does anyone else agree with this statement?? I have a few problems with it, it puts up red flags in my head every time I read it, and I'm wondering if anyone should share it at all. What do you all think of it and how does it resonate with you?


fi aman Allah
w'salaam
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Indian Bro
02-16-2013, 12:11 PM
As-salamu alaykum,

I agree with the quote, however, I think there might be exceptions to this. Example, when you watch a movie in cinema (public), you are glorifying the sin. However when you watch a movie at home (privacy) at least you can pause it, go pray, skip a bad scene, stop watching, etc. So I agree with the Imam but I think there might be some exceptions, I may be wrong though since I'm not scholar! I guess it all depends on the situation and the intention of the person. I think what the Sheikh is describing is a hypocrite, a person who desires to please the public rather than to please Allah (swt). I hope someone can clarify this doubt for us.

EDIT: But then also, if you take smoking as an example, say someone smokes only when he/she is alone and not in front of others. Obviously you could say this person fears what others would think about him/her more than Allah (swt). So I agree with the Sheikh!

And Allah Almighty knows best.
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*charisma*
02-16-2013, 01:00 PM
Wa'alaikum asalaam


Maybe the quote is out of context and it was directed towards something very specific, which I think should have been stated along with the quote, but it isn't.

So taking it as it is, I'll share some of what is similar to what wrote to my friend.

The main problems I have with this statement are the parts that say, "the sins that you do in private kill the heart more than the sins you do in public" and "you (the private sinner) values the opinion of the people more than you value the sight of Allah"

I feel like there's an under-tone implying that sinning in private is worse than sinning in public.

A person who is sinning in private still has shame and humility which is why he conceals his sins, while someone who does it publicly has no shame whatsoever (his heart is already dead!) or he is ignorant of the severity of his sin, not because he lacks shame.

Also, for a person with low iman, sinning in public is very easy because once you do it, you have people who will support you regardless whether or not the sin itself is socially/legally acceptable.

Sinning publicly also causes corruption to a society because it's being done carelessly and Allah punishes you more severely for that because you are causing others to see your actions and think they are permissible and ok.

When it comes down to the actual feeling of shame, it occurs only when a person knows they are doing something wrong and wants to stop. It's always better to stop without the interference of others (ie. sinning privately) than to be labeled and have no one help you, or for people to discourage you from stopping because you are already known for this sin or because it's acceptable. And usually a person who sins in private most likely does it because it's a bad habit that he can't control and is struggling with.

If you're a smoker and you realize it's haram and you want to quit, it's better to build shame to help you quit by doing it privately and quitting in the eyes of people at least because this has more benefits.

If a person has the least bit of taqwa and still sins publicly OR if he has no shame sinning privately, then he has no regard for himself or others either way.

I can see your point about the hypocrisy aspect of it. If a person wants to show himself as a high/clean person in the eyes of the people and sins privately without shame, then I could see this quote applying to that, but that's only the case I can see where it applies. I still do think however, that even in this case, sinning privately does show some humility and it is the lesser of the two evils.

I hope that makes sense from my perspective lol. Not sure if I'm thinking too much into this, but if I am then this whole quote itself just does not make any sense to me!

fi aman Allah
w'salaam
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Indian Bro
02-16-2013, 02:00 PM
As-salamu alaykum,

I understood your point of view, again, I cannot comment whether the Sheikh is right or wrong because I'm not a scholar. What you say makes sense as well as what the Sheikh says also makes sense. Maybe there is someone in this forum who can clarify this doubt, inshAllah. Maybe we are thinking too much about it because committing sins is bad whether it is done privately or publicly, we should just refrain from doing them and not ponder upon which is worse or better because the result wont justify anything, lol...

May Allah (swt) guide us and aid us to stop all forms of sin inshAllah!

Salam 3laikum
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abcdcool2012
02-16-2013, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
Assalamu Alaikum

I've seen this quote several times before, but yesterday, a friend posted this as a status and it got several likes:




Does anyone else agree with this statement?? I have a few problems with it, it puts up red flags in my head every time I read it, and I'm wondering if anyone should share it at all. What do you all think of it and how does it resonate with you?


fi aman Allah
w'salaam

Walaikum Asslaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barkatuhu Sister...Yes I do agree with this quote...
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Al-Mufarridun
02-16-2013, 02:48 PM
:sl:

The Sheikh is probably right in some circumstances, but generally speaking, I think sinning in public is much worst than sinning in private. The way I see it, generally speaking to a varying degree, the person who sins in private has a sick heart while the person who sins openly has a dead heart.

Abu Hurayrah said:
I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: All of my ummah will be forgiven except those who sin openly." [Bukhari]


Allah swt Knows Best!
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muslimah bird
02-16-2013, 03:10 PM
Thanks for Sharing
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Urban Turban
02-16-2013, 05:43 PM
I agree with the quote and actually do you know its a sin to commit a sin in private thinking that no one's watching you...
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Amat Allah
02-16-2013, 05:54 PM
Whether doing it in private or in public then still; done it under the sight of Allah and had no shame from Him doing it...

"They have not estimated Allah His Rightful Estimate; Verily, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty."

Doing it in public is worse as the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) taught us

as in the post of our noble and respected brother Al-Muffaridun ..May Allah bless him and all of ya Ameeeen
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*charisma*
02-16-2013, 06:00 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

Originally Posted by Urban Turban
I agree with the quote and actually do you know its a sin to commit a sin in private thinking that no one's watching you?
So you think sinning in private is more corrupt than sinning in public?

Sorry for my misunderstanding but can you clarify or elaborate more on your other statement? By saying "thinking that no one is watching you" you're implying "thinking that Allah or His angels is not watching, right? Cuz wouldn't that be like a state of kufr or ignorance? Or did you mean something else?


Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
The Sheikh is probably right in some circumstances, but generally speaking, I think sinning in public is much worst than sinning in private. The way I see it, generally speaking to a varying degree, the person who sins in private has a sick heart while the person who sins openly has a dead heart.

Abu Hurayrah said:
I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “All of my ummah will be forgiven except those who sin openly." [Bukhari]
Yes I completely agree with you. There are also the ahadith which state Allah will conceal the sins of a believer if he conceals it for himself. I just don't know in which case(s) it would be "better" to sin in public, or rather, where sinning in private is more corrupt, that's what I'm trying to figure out, or what it is exactly that people are agreeing with.

May Allah protect us from private and public sinning, forgive us, correct our mannerisms, character, increase our iman, and make us successful in this dunyaa and akhira ameen.

Fi aman Allah
w'salaam
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piXie
02-16-2013, 11:04 PM
:sl:

According to my limited understanding, the scholar is making a differentiation between two types of sins. One is the sin of the limbs, the action (e.g. watching a bad movie) while the other is the sin of the heart (the state of fearing the people more than Allaah). The latter sin is far more greater in magnitude than the former. The One who Created you and legislated the commands which we obey or disobey, the One to whom you are accountable, the One in front of who u will stand and be questioned, our heart does not pound with the anxiety of being caught by Him, yet it pounds with the anxiety of being caught by someone else, what is wrong with our heart! We didnt stop knowing Allah is watching us but as soon as we hear the footsteps of someone else coming our hands jolt towards the off button. Allaah says He is more worthy of being feared, but in our hearts we have given more worth to the people.

"The sins that you do in private kills the heart more than the sins that you do in public, because it means that you value the eyes of the people more than you value the sight of Allah. You are more worried about people catching you sinning than Allah seeing you."

-Imam Ibn Qudamah
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M.I.A.
02-16-2013, 11:18 PM
it seems like a very complicated matter overly simplified.

there are so many ways it can be interpreted.

imo,

giving people cause to do wrong by example is worse.

it misleads people willing to be mislead.

but doing a sin in private and having a good face outside is also a deception for the people you encounter.


but if a sin is not manifest or revealed to the people by allah swt, then there is probably less damage when the sin is overcome.


there is an islamic story about a person who was sinning (from amongst the muslims) and that being the reason for withholding of rain,
and when they stopped sinning the prayer/dua for rain was finally answered.

it was never revealed who was sinning.


....although i cant remember the exact story and random google attempts have failed me.


imo,

a hidden sin is in the sight of allah.

but a visible sin brings the worst out in the people (most people).


nobody is perfect and everybody tries to cover the cracks in there character.

its when you notice somebody elses that you realise who you were.


everybody has done things they are not proud of or under compulsion, including myself for a while.

i guess some people are naturally pious,

but i know better than assume all are.


there are so many stories about sin and repentance and how they are recorded.

but its not something that fits neatly within a single quote.


but imo,

the visible sin is the worst because people will follow it and they will remind you of it... or not.

hidden sin is literally only in the sight of the only one who can forgive you.. although it may be just as destructive for the person.

physically and mentally.

..and on judgement day.


*im still looking for the sin story, i may have been mistaken and mixed up two different stories as i cant find it anywhere! rep to anybody who can clarify my mistake.. and thanks.
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Karl
02-16-2013, 11:27 PM
Maybe he means that the private sinner is killing their heart because they are non believers by doing it as they only fear people instead of Allah. Maybe it is aimed at politicians and people of high public profile, Imams etc to not stray from the straight path. Not to be a two faced hypocrite.
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M.I.A.
02-16-2013, 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
Not to be a two faced hypocrite.
as is often the case, it takes one to know one.

we all walk the same streets.


imams and such have the hardest path to walk, simply because most would want them to stumble.

they have the hardest questions asked of them.


if they are aware of it or not is a testament to allah swt and the heart and soul of believers.


ok i found the story, if it makes anything clearer or not i do not know.

It was narrated that in the days that Prophet Moses (pbuh) wandered with Bani Israel (Children of Israel) in the desert, an intense drought befell them. Together, they raised their hands towards the heavens praying for the blessed rain to come. Then, to the astonishment of Prophet Moses (pbuh) and all those watching, the few scattered clouds that were in the sky vanished, the heat poured down, and the drought intensified.

It was revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh) that there was a sinner amongst the tribe of Bani Israel (Children of Israel) who had disobeyed Allah (SWT) for more than forty years of his life.

‘Let him separate himself from the congregation,’ Allah (SWT) told Prophet Moses (pbuh). ‘Only then shall I shower you all with rain.’

Prophet Moses (pbuh) then called out to the throngs of humanity, ‘There is a person amongst us who has disobeyed Allah (SWT) for forty years. Let him separate himself from the congregation and only then shall we be rescued from the drought.’

That man waited, looking left and right, hoping that someone else would step forward, but no one did. Sweat poured forth from his brow and he knew that he was the one. The man knew that if he stayed amongst the congregation all would die of thirst and that if he stepped forward he would be humiliated for all eternity.

He raised his hands with a sincerity he had never known before, with humility he had never tasted, and as tears poured down on both cheeks he said, ‘O Allah, have mercy on me! O Allah, hide my sins! O Allah, forgive me!’

As Prophet Moses (pbuh) and the people of Bani Israel (Children of Israel) waited for the sinner to step forward, the clouds hugged the sky and the rain poured. Prophet Moses (pbuh) asked Allah (SWT), ‘O Allah, you blessed us with rain even though the sinner did not come forward.’

And Allah (SWT) replied, ‘O Moses, it is for the repentance of that very person that I blessed all of Bani Israel (Children of Israel) with water.’
have a website but no source on quote, so it may still be dubious.
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Iceee
02-17-2013, 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
It was narrated that in the days that Prophet Moses (pbuh) wandered with Bani Israel (Children of Israel) in the desert, an intense drought befell them. Together, they raised their hands towards the heavens praying for the blessed rain to come. Then, to the astonishment of Prophet Moses (pbuh) and all those watching, the few scattered clouds that were in the sky vanished, the heat poured down, and the drought intensified.

It was revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh) that there was a sinner amongst the tribe of Bani Israel (Children of Israel) who had disobeyed Allah (SWT) for more than forty years of his life.

‘Let him separate himself from the congregation,’ Allah (SWT) told Prophet Moses (pbuh). ‘Only then shall I shower you all with rain.’

Prophet Moses (pbuh) then called out to the throngs of humanity, ‘There is a person amongst us who has disobeyed Allah (SWT) for forty years. Let him separate himself from the congregation and only then shall we be rescued from the drought.’

That man waited, looking left and right, hoping that someone else would step forward, but no one did. Sweat poured forth from his brow and he knew that he was the one. The man knew that if he stayed amongst the congregation all would die of thirst and that if he stepped forward he would be humiliated for all eternity.

He raised his hands with a sincerity he had never known before, with humility he had never tasted, and as tears poured down on both cheeks he said, ‘O Allah, have mercy on me! O Allah, hide my sins! O Allah, forgive me!’

As Prophet Moses (pbuh) and the people of Bani Israel (Children of Israel) waited for the sinner to step forward, the clouds hugged the sky and the rain poured. Prophet Moses (pbuh) asked Allah (SWT), ‘O Allah, you blessed us with rain even though the sinner did not come forward.’

And Allah (SWT) replied, ‘O Moses, it is for the repentance of that very person that I blessed all of Bani Israel (Children of Israel) with water.’

Salaam.

Just Beautiful.^^^
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Hulk
02-17-2013, 06:27 AM
I think there is much to reflect on on the quote. I think it refers to "sins" but not exactly the "same actions". Think about it this way, are you the type of person who is able to avoid bad actions in public(sinning in public) like drinking, clubbing etc yet behind closed doors you backbite? Perhaps that is what is meant. It's sort of to remind you the reason why you avoid sin in the first place. If you find yourself in a position where you don't sin in public yet sin in private then you have to ask yourself whether the reason you do not sin in public is because of your remembrance of Allah or is it because of the people.
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Ali_008
02-17-2013, 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by piXie
:sl:

According to my limited understanding, the scholar is making a differentiation between two types of sins. One is the sin of the limbs, the action (e.g. watching a bad movie) while the other is the sin of the heart (the state of fearing the people more than Allaah). The latter sin is far more greater in magnitude than the former. The One who Created you and legislated the commands which we obey or disobey, the One to whom you are accountable, the One in front of who u will stand and be questioned, our heart does not pound with the anxiety of being caught by Him, yet it pounds with the anxiety of being caught by someone else, what is wrong with our heart! We didnt stop knowing Allah is watching us but as soon as we hear the footsteps of someone else coming our hands jolt towards the off button. Allaah says He is more worthy of being feared, but in our hearts we have given more worth to the people.

"The sins that you do in private kills the heart more than the sins that you do in public, because it means that you value the eyes of the people more than you value the sight of Allah. You are more worried about people catching you sinning than Allah seeing you."

-Imam Ibn Qudamah
^This.

:wasalamex

There is no sin bigger than shirk, and sinning privately and acting saintly in public is a form of shirk because you're dedicating your decency to pleasing the people rather than pleasing Allah. To you, the opinion of others matter more than the pleasure of Allah. The one who commits sins openly is a completely misguided person, and there still can be hope for him if he's invited to the path of Islam whereas someone who makes a false pretense of being righteous does not even have that because he already knows about the principles, and yet he chooses to be a hypocrite.

Sinning, on the whole, is bad regardless of whether you do it on a stage or behind closed doors. If a believer sins privately, there is no way that he won't be accounted for it. He can only HOPE that Allah will forgive his trangression, but in no way can we assume that sinning privately will exempt us any punishment. We do have the hadeeth wherein Rasoolullah :saws: told us that those who sin openly won't be forgiven, but we had loads of other aayaat and ahadeeth that tell us that Allah is ever watchful, and more deserving of our sincerity than everything else.

Don't compare private and public sinning. It is bad either way and has repercussions. Keeping it to one's self will affect your heart and eemaan, and that is a very precious thing to be protected from corruption. Doing it openly will influence others to follow suit, and you wouldn't want to carry the load of someone's else sin either.

There isn't even a need to have this conversation, because sinning is bad even if you do it in the darkest of cave. We can't be living with a belief that hiding it means erasing it.
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*charisma*
02-23-2013, 09:58 AM
Assalamu Alaikum

Originally Posted by M.I.A.
there is an islamic story about a person who was sinning (from amongst the muslims) and that being the reason for withholding of rain,
and when they stopped sinning the prayer/dua for rain was finally answered.

it was never revealed who was sinning.


....although i cant remember the exact story and random google attempts have failed me.
When I read your post, I knew which story you were talking about and was searching for it before I saw your other post lool. After finding it, I'm not sure how accurate the story is, but it is a very beautiful eye-opener none-the-less.


Originally Posted by piXie
According to my limited understanding, the scholar is making a differentiation between two types of sins. One is the sin of the limbs, the action (e.g. watching a bad movie) while the other is the sin of the heart (the state of fearing the people more than Allaah). The latter sin is far more greater in magnitude than the former. The One who Created you and legislated the commands which we obey or disobey, the One to whom you are accountable, the One in front of who u will stand and be questioned, our heart does not pound with the anxiety of being caught by Him, yet it pounds with the anxiety of being caught by someone else, what is wrong with our heart! We didnt stop knowing Allah is watching us but as soon as we hear the footsteps of someone else coming our hands jolt towards the off button. Allaah says He is more worthy of being feared, but in our hearts we have given more worth to the people.

"The sins that you do in private kills the heart more than the sins that you do in public, because it means that you value the eyes of the people more than you value the sight of Allah. You are more worried about people catching you sinning than Allah seeing you."

-Imam Ibn Qudamah
This makes more sense, jazaki allahu khair for your insight and explanation.

Originally Posted by Ali_008
Sinning, on the whole, is bad regardless of whether you do it on a stage or behind closed doors. If a believer sins privately, there is no way that he won't be accounted for it. He can only HOPE that Allah will forgive his trangression, but in no way can we assume that sinning privately will exempt us any punishment. We do have the hadeeth wherein Rasoolullah told us that those who sin openly won't be forgiven, but we had loads of other aayaat and ahadeeth that tell us that Allah is ever watchful, and more deserving of our sincerity than everything else.
Yes, I agree. I didn't mean to turn it into private sin vs public sin because as you said either way it's bad, but this particular quote is very vague and I couldn't think of a situation where I would want to share this with someone or apply it to a real-life situation you know? Sometimes you read something and you can give da'wah with it, or it is an eye-opener for you and makes you realize something you hadn't before, but this quote as eloquent and thought provoking as it is, just made me feel a little irritated lol. I tried to search for the source of the quote hoping for some insight, and I could not find any reliable source that attributes this quote to the imam rahimullah 3anhu, so I don't even know how reliable it is. I thought if it is about something specific such as hypocricy or shirk, it wouldn't be so vague and it wouldn't be difficult to source coming from a famous scholar. So allahu a'lem.

Originally Posted by Ali_008
The one who commits sins openly is a completely misguided person, and there still can be hope for him if he's invited to the path of Islam whereas someone who makes a false pretense of being righteous does not even have that because he already knows about the principles, and yet he chooses to be a hypocrite.
This makes perfect sense, jazak allahu khair. I think the quote itself may be badly worded or mistranslated or something. I don't know, but inshallah khair, and I hope that others who read it do not misunderstand it like I do. If I read this and I had low iman and took it as I did, it might be a cause of misguidance. If you do a public sin or private sin, you are supposed to feel bad either way, and if you do feel bad about it, then it would not matter concerning the heart which is worse, because there is a conscious there that is telling you this sin is bad. The action of the sin itself though is worse when done publicly. If the heart feels nothing when the sin is done privately, then this isn't a concern of "killing" the heart, because I would assume at this point, the heart is already dead. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but that's why I felt the quote was up to par with what it was supposed to convey. Wa allahu a'lem.

May Allah reward you all ameen
Jazakum allahu khair

fi aman Allah
w'salaam
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