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Iceee
02-23-2013, 03:56 PM
I have Psychology class this semester and our teacher was discussing whether or not Homosexuality was the result of nature or nurture.

Are we born gay or is it picked up during our lives (environment).
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Abu Loren
02-23-2013, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Are we born gay or is it picked up during our lives (environment).
I personally don't think that anybody is born gay. I believe that people are influenced by satan in becoming gay. Homosexuality is an abomination to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala that He destroyed the population of Prophet Lut (Alayhi Salaam). That is a lesson for mankind for eternity. I also believe that with God in one's life and with prayer and du'a people can overcome this disease, yes I believe it is a disease than anything else. People who are long term gay are people who do not fight their desires but easily give in to temptation.
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 04:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
I personally don't think that anybody is born gay. I believe that people are influenced by satan in becoming gay. Homosexuality is an abomination to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala that He destroyed the population of Prophet Lut (Alayhi Salaam). That is a lesson for mankind for eternity. I also believe that with God in one's life and with prayer and du'a people can overcome this disease, yes I believe it is a disease than anything else. People who are long term gay are people who do not fight their desires but easily give in to temptation.
Salaam.

My teacher gave me this example;
Let's say a lesbian couple adopted a baby girl and they lived secluded from the cities and stayed in a cottage or a small town where not many people knew them. The girl as she grows up with two females taking care of her, doesn't she have a choice of whether or not she likes a guy or girl.

Nature: She is born straight.
Nurture: She was raised in a lesbian household

I don't know what to say to my teacher about that.
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Abu Loren
02-23-2013, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Salaam.

My teacher gave me this example;
Let's say a lesbian couple adopted a baby girl and they lived secluded from the cities and stayed in a cottage or a small town where not many people knew them. The girl as she grows up with two females taking care of her, doesn't she have a choice of whether or not she likes a guy or girl.

Nature: She is born straight.
Nurture: She was raised in a lesbian household

I don't know what to say to my teacher about that.
Alaikkum As'alaam

In that particular scenario the child could grow up as wither as 'straight' or a 'lesbian'. She could adopt her natural state and marry a guy or she could be influenced by her environment and upbringing. Both reality is possible.
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Alaikkum As'alaam

In that particular scenario the child could grow up as wither as 'straight' or a 'lesbian'. She could adopt her natural state and marry a guy or she could be influenced by her environment and upbringing. Both reality is possible.
Her surroundings say it is okay to be a lesbian which is the society.
If she marries a guy, she is born straight right?
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Hulk
02-23-2013, 05:07 PM
The act of homosexuality is a choice, however whether one can be born with tendencies inclining to the same gender I don't know. Perhaps some are born with those tendencies whereas some "switch sides". Whatever it is, to act upon those tendencies is by choice.
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
The act of homosexuality is a choice, however whether one can be born with tendencies inclining to the same gender I don't know. Perhaps some are born with those tendencies whereas some "switch sides". Whatever it is, to act upon those tendencies is by choice.
Choice?

"Why would you choose to be something that can get you made fun of, tortured, shunned or even killed? It's not a choice."
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Abu Loren
02-23-2013, 05:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Her surroundings say it is okay to be a lesbian which is the society.
If she marries a guy, she is born straight right?
I can live with that summary.

Btw I hope you are asking us to do your homework!:p
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 05:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
I can live with that summary.

Btw I hope you are asking us to do your homework!:p
Not homework, I need help debating with my teacher on Monday.
Worth a chunk of marks.
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Hulk
02-23-2013, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Choice?

"Why would you choose to be something that can get you made fun of, tortured, shunned or even killed? It's not a choice."
read again what I said, I said the act itself is a choice just like if I slapped someone out of anger it is an action which I chose to do. why were you speaking in quotes though?
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hulk
read again what I said, I said the act itself is a choice just like if I slapped someone out of anger it is an action which I chose to do. why were you speaking in quotes though?
What do you mean by, "act itself is a choice?"
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Hulk
02-23-2013, 05:33 PM
well what's a homosexual?
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May Ayob
02-23-2013, 05:41 PM
There was I think an old thread about a study that says gay parents will most likely have gay kids I suppose since they are a gay couple they can't have biological children so they children are either from a previous straight marriage or they're adopted a very slim chance for genetics to be involved but I think it'sneither nature nor nurture. In the example your teacer provided you'd have to discuss both scenarios: is it the probability of being gay because of her parents influence or is it because she has never met a man in her life and might switch positions if she had or her being straight regardless of her parents influence and not meeting any man at all ? or being gay despite meeting a man or maybe she doesnt know that she is straight she thinks that this is social norm judging from living with her parents and being isolated from society?. If she is straight and neither her parents being gay or not seeing another member of the opposite gender influenced her then it's nature. If she is gay because that's all she witnessed since she was a baby then it"s nurture.
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muslimah bird
02-23-2013, 05:58 PM
I understand Allah is just and will not punish a person if he/she was already created in that manner so the pen would be lifted up for such person just as it is lifted for an insane person.
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May Ayob
02-23-2013, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
What do you mean by, "act itself is a choice?"
No body forces you to indulge in any act it's completely your choice with the exception of circumstantial cases but when do any act it is your choice even if there were driving forces motives and temptations it all boils down to whether you choose or allow that you do so. In relation with homosexuality no one argues that it's a feeling that are involuntary and out of the hand but transforming those feelings into action hence homosexuality the act is what a person will be held accountable for.
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Abu Loren
02-23-2013, 06:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimah bird
I understand Allah is just and will not punish a person if he/she was already created in that manner so the pen would be lifted up for such person just as it is lifted for an insane person.
Are you serious? Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala destroyed a whole community due to homosexuality. Are you saying that He creates them like that then tells them that it is a sin, then destroys them when they perform the act?
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sister herb
02-23-2013, 06:53 PM
Salam alaykum

I don´t understand why kind of matters as homosexuality cause so much worry and discussion with muslims. If they make sin together, it is they sin. We should think more how much we make sin, not how much others do.

If in Europe or in the USA some non-muslim communities are accepting them as marriage, what it means to us? Nothing.

^o)
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'Abd-al Latif
02-23-2013, 08:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
I have Psychology class this semester and our teacher was discussing whether or not Homosexuality was the result of nature or nurture.

Are we born gay or is it picked up during our lives (environment).
Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (:saws1:) said:

Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian. (Agreed upon).


Since every human being is born upon 'fitra', every belief besides this is a complete lie. This mytical belief that people are born as homosexuals is just an excuse to fool people to accept it.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
02-23-2013, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

I don´t understand why kind of matters as homosexuality cause so much worry and discussion with muslims. If they make sin together, it is they sin. We should think more how much we make sin, not how much others do.

If in Europe or in the USA some non-muslim communities are accepting them as marriage, what it means to us? Nothing.

^o)
It is a duty upon you as a Muslim that you enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

The Messenger :saws1: said if you can stop an evil (whatever evil it may be) with your hands then you must do so, if you cannot do that then you must speak out against it, and if you cannot do that then you must hate it in your heart.

Shaykh Ibn Uhaymeen (rahimullah) added to this and said that if one cannot even hate an evil in one's heart then what emaan does one have?
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Ahmad H
02-23-2013, 10:06 PM
As-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

There is a side to humans, which is the Nafs al-Ammarah which is the "self that incites to evil". This side of humans is the aspect of us which enjoins us to do wrong. This means the lustful acts as well as other sins. Everyone has this, whether they are free of sin or not. It is up to Allah how He protects them from it. Hazrat Yusuf (as) admitted that every human has this:

12:53 ‘And I do not hold my own self to be free from weakness; for, the soul is surely prone to enjoin evil, save that whereon my Lord has mercy. Surely, my Lord is Most Forgiving, Merciful.’

Everyone has this weakness. Homosexuals do this act because they allowed their lower nature to take control of them. I would think that homosexuality is a natural thing, but so is murder, fornication, stealing, etc. All of these are evils which are natural, but they are not to be done by anyone because they are wrong. We are born upon Fitrah, which means our natural inclination to do right and everything which Allah has commanded us to do. But, we could fall into our darker side and do what is opposite to this. Homosexuality is merely one of these evils.

let's delve further, we make tools because that is how humans developed, that goes for war. But, if we make tools for war such as bombs, or even nuclear bombs, then we should not do so and we should avoid that. In fact, bombs are forbidden altogether since punishment by fire is only allowed for Allah Himself. My argument here is that although homosexuality can be argued as something natural, it is not something which we humans ought to express or do. We can go against our natural Fitrah by following our desires, but these desires should be suppressed. It does not mean we are born this way, but we simply think that what we feel is right no matter what, and no one should say anything against it.

Western society promotes gay freedom because they have no concept of what is morally right. The moral decadence in the West is astounding when you observe the lifestyles of these people. On the one hand, they are religious by worshiping a Prophet of God as if he was literally the son of God, and they think he wiped all of their sins away. On the other hand, they move away from religion and consider themselves rationally independent of God and think every law they can think of to satisfy their desires is alright because they do not acknowledge that there is a God anymore. Thus, their move away from religion is reflected in this homosexual syndrome. There is no propaganda to develop homosexual people, but in fact, the people themselves have felt these homosexual desires and they feel that they should observe it because they think suppressing desires is wrong.

Granted, perhaps there are some men who do not seem to find women attractive, and women who do not find men attractive. This seems to be my problem with the issue, and I do not know if there is any easy solution to that. I have moved past the idea that it could be natural. It happens in the animal kingdom, thus it would certainly happen amongst humans since in our own way we also have animal tendencies. But this is why there is Nafs al-Ammarah, the self that incites to evil. It is our animal nature which we must suppress.

Interestingly, Freud also observed this and his ideas for controlling animal urges is used by the West to steer people into the consumerism ideals so that they do not endanger themselves by becoming violent and animalistic. They moved towards materialism to satisfy their desires willingly. But, their materialism has grown so much that it has dwindled this barrier between animal and human, so now the West keeps trying to find ways to become more animal-like while retaining their human qualities. Freud had no solution, but he was aware of a problem. Islam already knew of this problem from the very beginning. As humans changed over the past thousands of years, so did religion to control this problem. islam has the only solution, which is that prayer should be the remedy for all ills.

Add to that, fasting removes sexual ills, eating less, exercising, prayer and seeking refuge with Allah often from Satan's incitements. Thus, homosexuality requires prayer to Allah for its control, and then further actions to take steps to suppress this urge. It is the sinful act of sex between people of the same sex which is wrong, but the desires itself, as long as they are controlled, may not pose a harm. This is like thinking of adultery, but not committing it. The Muslim Ummah is exempt from the sin of evil thoughts, as long as they do not become action.

There is no doubt that homosexuality is wrong, so I hope no one thinks I am saying it is right, because it isn't. Homosexuality was a relatively new thing during Lut's (as) era. His people committed that act. However, it is wrong to assume that that was the only reason why they were destroyed. They rejected a Prophet of Allah, thus they were destroyed. People can commit as many evil acts as they want, but Allah destroys them when they reject a Prophet of His, because the people are definitely not going to reform if they are not positively influenced by the most positive figure that can exist for them. A Prophet of Allah is a last resort before people get punished for their sins. Allah does not punish unless a Prophet is brought into the world to reform the people. Therefore, it was not homosexuality alone which made the people of the cities of Lut (as) perish. Their acts were heinous, but Allah sent a Prophet as a last resort so the people could reform themselves. When they do not have any chance of reform, namely by mocking, rejecting and abusing a Prophet of Allah and threatening to kill him, then they are definitely destroyed by Allah.

Again, I will reiterate, homosexuality may just be a natural urge, thus people are deceived by their own natural urges thinking they are born with this urge and so they cannot be any different. Allah has made it crystal clear in the Holy Qur'an that this act itself was started over time by people:

7:80 And We sent Lot — when he said to his people, ‘Do you commit an abomination such as no one in the world ever did before you?
7:81 ‘You approach men with lust instead of women. Nay, you are a people who exceed all bounds.’

If it was so natural, then why did no one in the world ever commit this sin before the people of Lut (as)? This act was perpetrated, and then propagated as a good act amongst these people who then influenced the rest of their society that it was ok to do it. The next verse says:

7:82 And the answer of his people was no other than that they said, ‘Turn them out of your town, for they are men who would keep pure.’

Thus, anyone who went against the ideal of those people in Lut's (as) time, they were ostracized and social outcasts. This is the same thing with this era. We see now that Muslims and even Christians who speak against gay marriage are considered outcasts and are not "progressive" people who can't seem to "modernize" themselves. They are obviously saying that our views are not socially acceptable to them. In fact, if we are against the idea of gay marriage in this society, I hear some who say that "if they aren't happy with what we say in our society, then maybe they should just leave. They aren't welcome here if they can't accept our ways." I honestly hear this from people.

Fine, these people here accept that there are people who observe gay behavior. But does that stop freedom of speech because we have a voice? See the hypocrisy? All we can do is pray against this wicked behavior of theirs when our arguing with them reaches an irrational stage. I will quote the Holy Qur'an below about this evil, and you will see that Lut (as) resorted to prayer when he found he could not argue with the foolish anymore:

29:28 And We sent Lot; he said to his people, ‘You commit an abomination which none among mankind has ever committed before you.
29:29 ‘Do you indeed come lustfully to men and cut off the highway for travellers? And you commit abomination in your meetings!’ But the only answer of his people was that they said, ‘Bring upon us the punishment of Allah if thou speakest the truth.’
29:30 He said, ‘Help me, my Lord, against the wicked people.’


27:54 And remember Lot, when he said to his people, ‘Do you commit abomination while you see the evil thereof ?
27:55 What! do you approach men lustfully rather than women? Nay, you are indeed an ignorant people.’
27:56 But the answer of his people was naught save that they said, ‘Drive out Lot’s family from your city. They are a people who would keep clean.’
27:57 So We saved him and his family, except his wife; her We decreed to be of those who stayed behind.

In fact, another part of the Holy Qur'an explains even further that those people of Lut (as) left their wives and went lusting after men instead of their wives. So they CHOSE to be evil and observe this act of homosexuality. Keep in mind that a Hadith of the Holy Prophet (saw) said that if a man lusted after a woman, then he should go to his wife instead and observe his feelings for her instead rather than allow himself to commit such an evil. He spoke of women, so what of these people who instead seek men rather than women?

26:160 The people of Lot rejected the Messengers,
26:161 When their brother Lot said to them, ‘Will you not become righteous?
26:162 ‘Surely, I am unto you a Messenger, faithful to my trust.
26:163 ‘So fear Allah, and obey me.
26:164 ‘And I ask of you no reward for it. My reward is only with the Lord of the worlds.
26:165 ‘Do you, of all peoples, approach males,
26:166 ‘And leave your wives whom your Lord has created for you? Nay, you are a people who transgress.’
26:167 They said, ‘If thou desist not, O Lot, thou wilt surely be one of the banished ones.’
26:168 He said, ‘Certainly I hate your practice.
26:169 ‘My Lord, save me and my family from what they do.’

This shows that in our hearts, we must always hate this practice of homosexuality, because it is an unacceptable and unnatural act itself. The desire itself may grow out of tendencies in our self that incites to evil, and perhaps that is the only thing natural about it like i said earlier like murder theft and so on, but this does not mean that we should do it. It is wrong nevertheless, and this evil thought arising from our desires should be kept locked up and hidden away.

The only thing we can do after arguing about it and being frustrated at the lack of progress, is to seek Allah's help through patience and prayer. We can ask Allah to help us against these evil people and to save our families from them so that they do not fall into the sin they are promoting. The gay parades definitely don't help.

May Allah save us all. Ameen.
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 11:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by muslimah bird
I understand Allah is just and will not punish a person if he/she was already created in that manner so the pen would be lifted up for such person just as it is lifted for an insane person.
So you are saying people are born gay?
Reply

Iceee
02-23-2013, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by May Ayob
No body forces you to indulge in any act it's completely your choice with the exception of circumstantial cases but when do any act it is your choice even if there were driving forces motives and temptations it all boils down to whether you choose or allow that you do so. In relation with homosexuality no one argues that it's a feeling that are involuntary and out of the hand but transforming those feelings into action hence homosexuality the act is what a person will be held accountable for.
Okay so you are having homosexual urges. And you don't do anything homosexual with anyone or watch/read anything about it.

Doesn't that still mean that in the future, you will still be a homosexual? It can't be changed right?
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 11:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Are you serious? Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala destroyed a whole community due to homosexuality. Are you saying that He creates them like that then tells them that it is a sin, then destroys them when they perform the act?
They are born that way, wouldn't Allah Subhanahuwatallah remove the Homosexual urges if it was wrong?
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

I don´t understand why kind of matters as homosexuality cause so much worry and discussion with muslims. If they make sin together, it is they sin. We should think more how much we make sin, not how much others do.

If in Europe or in the USA some non-muslim communities are accepting them as marriage, what it means to us? Nothing.

^o)
I understand this. We shouldn't really care/worry about what others are doing.

What I am saying is... are we born gay/straight/bisexual or is it learned?
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Iceee
02-23-2013, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (:saws1:) said:

Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian. (Agreed upon).


Since every human being is born upon 'fitra', every belief besides this is a complete lie. This mytical belief that people are born as homosexuals is just an excuse to fool people to accept it.
Salaam.

Okay, so you're saying that it is a choice to be homosexual?
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May Ayob
02-24-2013, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Okay so you are having homosexual urges. And you don't do anything homosexual with anyone or watch/read anything about it.

Doesn't that still mean that in the future, you will still be a homosexual? It can't be changed right?

It's haraam I am not homosexual but in a case of such a person must not cross the boundaries anything can be changed with the help of God but a person must also be determined and take steps to change. There is such a thing as ex gay I suppose one can become straight afterall.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 01:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by May Ayob
It's haraam I am not homosexual but in a case of such a person must not cross the boundaries anything can be changed with the help of God but a person must also be determined and take steps to change. There is such a thing as ex gay I suppose one can become straight afterall.
I never did say you were gay, or anyone who answered, was just an example.

Here's one; What if it was the complete opposite. Being gay was the right and being straight was wrong according to a make-believe religion you are part of. So you're saying a straight person can also turn gay if he takes the steps? I find that hard to believe.
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Salahudeen
02-24-2013, 01:53 AM
If people are born homosexual wouldn't homosexuals eventually die out since they lack the means to reproduce? :hmm:

Can all people with sexual deviance's play the born this way card? Can a pedophile say, "I was born with this inclination towards children its not my fault why are you blaming me, this is the way god made me why should I be punished for acting upon desires that were with me from birth, I'm naturally like this."

.
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May Ayob
02-24-2013, 01:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
I never did say you were gay, or anyone who answered, was just an example.

Here's one; What if it was the complete opposite. Being gay was the right and being straight was wrong according to a make-believe religion you are part of. So you're saying a straight person can also turn gay if he takes the steps? I find that hard to believe.
Im sorry I know you didnt mean that but I just wanted to clear it up for anyone who misreads it. Your question is a tough one if it was the opposite then I wonder how we came here, but I dont think that religion will play a big role if Im straight then Im straight regardless of what religion says but this can be turned around too and so the bottom line is to be patient and not give in. And I know many people might disagree with me but yes I do believe you can become gay if you try to just as you can become straight if you try to. I concluded this from bi sexual behavior I think it validates my point. May God helps us all.
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ardianto
02-24-2013, 02:48 AM
Many men who involved in homosexuality actually are not gay, but just men who have tendency to bisexuality, even many of them are known as straight men in society.

In another side, there are men who are gay, but they choose to not involved in homosexuality, or have stopped from homosexuality.

There are no people who born as gay, but the wrong family upbringing can make someone grow up as gay.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 03:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Salahudeen

Can all people with sexual deviance's play the born this way card? Can a pedophile say, "I was born with this inclination towards children its not my fault why are you blaming me, this is the way god made me why should I be punished for acting upon desires that were with me from birth, I'm naturally like this."
Salaam.

Good point.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 03:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Many men who involved in homosexuality actually are not gay, but just men who have tendency to bisexuality, even many of them are known as straight men in society.

In another side, there are men who are gay, but they choose to not involved in homosexuality, or have stopped from homosexuality.

There are no people who born as gay, but the wrong family upbringing can make someone grow up as gay.
With what you are saying and going against my point and saying that people are born gay, wouldn't that make EVERY HUMAN bisexual!?
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Tyrion
02-24-2013, 03:28 AM
I feel that it's likely a combination of nature and nurture, but also depends on the person. I've heard of some people being able to "switch sides" during their lives, while others have always felt a certain way.
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Tyrion
02-24-2013, 03:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated that the Messenger of Allah () said:

Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian. (Agreed upon).

Since every human being is born upon 'fitra', every belief besides this is a complete lie. This mytical belief that people are born as homosexuals is just an excuse to fool people to accept it.
Technically, that hadith is talking about belief, right? And sexuality isn't much of a belief... Sure, you could say parents make their children Jews or Christians, but can you say your parents make you straight? I don't see how this hadith applies.


format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
It is a duty upon you as a Muslim that you enjoin the good and forbid the evil.
I've seen you flare up in other threads when this topic comes up. Don't use the whole "enjoin the good and forbid the evil" to give yourself and other Muslims a free pass to be insensitive and, in some cases, hateful towards homosexuals.

format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
They are born that way, wouldn't Allah Subhanahuwatallah remove the Homosexual urges if it was wrong?
Well, some people could consider it a rather difficult 'test' that they have been given. Others could see it another way. According to most religious people, ogling, impure thoughts, or looking for a relationship with a woman is "wrong", yet most of us were born with the inclination to do just that.


format_quote Originally Posted by Salahudeen
Can all people with sexual deviance's play the born this way card? Can a pedophile say, "I was born with this inclination towards children its not my fault why are you blaming me, this is the way god made me why should I be punished for acting upon desires that were with me from birth, I'm naturally like this."
I don't think it works that way, and I don't think you honestly think the two are exactly the same. Generally pedophilia endangers a child, whereas homosexuality is relatively harmless.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Are you serious? Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala destroyed a whole community due to homosexuality. Are you saying that He creates them like that then tells them that it is a sin, then destroys them when they perform the act?
Well, they did a lot more than just be homosexual in that story. It's a bit unfair to say that they were destroyed by divine will just because they slept with men.
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ardianto
02-24-2013, 08:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
With what you are saying and going against my point and saying that people are born gay, wouldn't that make EVERY HUMAN bisexual!?
Basically every man is potential to become bisexual. But I'm sure, there's no anyone who born as gay.

Naturally, when someone born, he has very strong tendency to heterosexual. However, what he experienced in life can raise his tendency to homosexual. If his tendency to heterosexual and homosexual is balance enough, he becomes bisexual, if his tendency to homosexual is stronger than heterosexual, he becomes gay, if his tendency to heterosexual is stronger, he becomes straight.

Straight man not attracted to same gender because his tendency to homosexual is very very weak. Contrast with gay who his tendency to opposite gender is very very weak.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 08:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Basically every man is potential to become bisexual. But I'm sure, there's no anyone who born as gay.

Naturally, when someone born, he has very strong tendency to heterosexual. However, what he experienced in life can raise his tendency to homosexual. If his tendency to heterosexual and homosexual is balance enough, he becomes bisexual, if his tendency to homosexual is stronger than heterosexual, he becomes gay, if his tendency to heterosexual is stronger, he becomes straight.

Straight man not attracted to same gender because his tendency to homosexual is very very weak. Contrast with gay who his tendency to opposite gender is very very weak.
Kk, I kind of agree with that. A lot of old men do tell me they're bisexuals. Some like men more than woman. Same vise versa.

"However, what he experienced in life can raise his tendency to homosexual." Give examples...
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sister herb
02-24-2013, 08:49 AM
Salam alaykum

We should be able to ask this question from a gay as "did you born as gay?" as we whose haven´t born as gay can´t never know how others think.

We can of course think that nobody born as gay but how we others could really know...
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 08:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

We should be able to ask this question from a gay as "did you born as gay?" as we whose haven´t born as gay can´t never know how others think.

We can of course think that nobody born as gay but how we others could really know...
Salaam,

I have a few friends who are gay. They say they are born that way, God created them that way. They still pray and read Quran however.

Most say they are bisexual.
Reply

sister herb
02-24-2013, 08:57 AM
Salam alaykum

I too have gay friends and they say just same. That are born as gay.
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ardianto
02-24-2013, 10:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
"However, what he experienced in life can raise his tendency to homosexual." Give examples...
Sexual abuse of the same sex that experienced in childhood can make someone grow up to be gay, although not always. A boy who grow up with feeling as weak person that need protection from someone also can be more attracted to man because he is expecting a protector.
Reply

Independent
02-24-2013, 11:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
I too have gay friends and they say just same. That are born as gay.
My gay friends say the same. Even before they were sexual, they felt 'different' without understanding why. Many of them tried to be heterosexual (because even in the west there is societal pressure to be straight) but emotionally felt nothing. They have absolutely no reason to be lying, there is no benefit (quite the opposite).

Would people prefer it if gays pretended to be straight and got married? Is that the way to happiness? Is that that fair for both spouses? How would you feel if you ended up marrying a gay partner, who after all was only doing what they were told to do?

The latest research suggests not a gay gene exactly, but an 'epigentic influence' - ie the hormonal environment in which the genes are expressed. This may also be inherited, but not in the DNA.

See: http://www.the-scientist.com/?articl...omosexuality-/

The articles concludes with an interesting question:

“Should we test this? Is it important for us to know?” asked McCarthy. “Homosexuality is not a disease, it’s part of natural human variation. I’m not sure there’s a good reason to delve this deeply into it. I think we’ve reached the point that we have enough evidence that there’s a biological basis for sexual orientation.” It would be more helpful to people to get a better handle on the epigenetics of cancer or mental illness, she added.
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sister herb
02-24-2013, 01:53 PM
Salam alaykum

We can´t say that sexual abuse is only with homosexuals. Much more it is with heterosexuals.

:hmm:
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Ramadan90
02-24-2013, 02:46 PM
I have heard as well few muslims that I know who feel that they were "born" gay. But does that really matter? A true muslim believer who feel an attraction to the same gender WILL pass this test. This should be seen as a difficult test. And the one who pass it will receive so much from Allah.
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sister herb
02-24-2013, 02:57 PM
Salam alaykum

You are right brother. Don´t we say as Allah test those He loves the most?

Why we should turn our eyes away then from them and think they are worse than we are?
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Ramadan90
02-24-2013, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

You are right brother. Don´t we say as Allah test those He loves the most?

Why we should turn our eyes away then from them and think they are worse than we are?
You are absolutely right. Allah does test those he loves the most and we shouldnt turn away from muslim people who have an attraction to the same gender. We should help them to overcome this problem and help them to control themselves. We should not bash them or/and turn away from them.
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Qurratul Ayn
02-24-2013, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
It's a bit unfair to say that they were destroyed by divine will just because they slept with men.
There are many verses in the Qur'aan that say so...

"The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them: “Will ye not fear (Allaah)? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allaah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allaah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!”
They said: “If thou desist not, O Lut! Thou wilt assuredly be cast out!”
He said: “I do detest your doings.” (Surat Ash-Shuara: 160-168)

We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: “Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.”
And his people gave no answer but this: they said, “Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!”(Surat Al-Araf: 80-82)

And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: “Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?” But his people gave no answer but this: they said: “Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth.” (Surat Al-Ankabut: 28-29)

The people of Lut rejected (his) warning. We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except Lut's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,- As a Grace from Us: thus do We reward those who give thanks. And (Lut) did warn them of Our Punishment, but they disputed about the Warning. (Surat Al-Qamar:, 33-36)

But the (mighty) Blast overtook them before morning, And We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay. Behold! in this are Signs for those who by tokens do understand. And the (cities were) right on the high-road. (Surat Al-Hijr: 73-76)

When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer,-Marked as from thy Lord: Nor are they ever far from those who do wrong! (Surah Hud: 82-83)

But the rest We destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! : Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful. (Surat Ash-Shuara: 172-175)
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May Ayob
02-24-2013, 04:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Why we should turn our eyes away then from them and think they are worse than we are?
I hope you feel the same about those who live in poverty and conditions far worse, why should people shun them off just because they are downtrodden. MayGod help them and grant them His love and mercy. This is my last post here my best wishes to all the members in this forum.
:wa:
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sister herb
02-24-2013, 04:44 PM
Salam alaykum

I think Allah test us others too - as how we react others, the gays. We should remember to behave with them as anyone else, not all the time think they are sinners.

:embarrass
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

I think Allah test us others too - as how we react others, the gays. We should remember to behave with them as anyone else, not all the time think they are sinners.

:embarrass
Actually, gays aren't sinners unless they do an act of homosexuality. Just like straight people aren't sinners unless they do act of fornication.

I remember one of my friends invited me to his house so we can finish a project, (we were 16) he never acted differently or anything. He was and still is a very nice friend. It wasn't until later on (last year) did he tell me and me only that he was gay.
I didn't go around telling everyone, I didn't even look at him as a different person, we are after-all human beings; God's creation. I'm guessing he was born gay, it wasn't a choice. He even said that his parents want him to get married to a wonderful woman but he's still thinking about it. May Allah Subhanahuwatallah guide him to the right path.

It's God's will now, not ours and we can't stop homosexuality.

Another thing; Where I live, Homosexuality is allowed and encouraged among the youth. If you go up to any gay person, they will say that they were born that way. It isn't a choice. Gays are allowed to join our countries military. They can also become parents adopting a child or other means of having their own children. In Toronto, we even have our own "Gay-District" I don't know whether your views are on homosexuality, but it shouldn't matter. Canada encourages openness and that in my opinion is a good thing.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 05:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Would people prefer it if gays pretended to be straight and got married? Is that the way to happiness? Is that that fair for both spouses? How would you feel if you ended up marrying a gay partner, who after all was only doing what they were told to do?
That would be awkward but some people feel as though maybe they can save that person from homosexual urges by getting them married to the opposite gender.

In Grade 6, two homosexual people, one male and one female came over to our classroom to talk to our class about their community. Both were gay but were married to the opposite gender. (Not each-other). They had kids with their spouse but they never "felt the happiness" just like a lot of straight-married people feel.

-Someone in our class said that those two people don't look gay and the two speakers explained that gays look the same as straight people and vise-versa.

-I asked what happened to their marriages after their spouse found out about their sexual orientation. They replied by saying that they take care of their children still, but they refrain from anything sexual between them and their spouse. They are still married to them however.
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Independent
02-24-2013, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
-I asked what happened to their marriages after their spouse found out about their sexual orientation. They replied by saying that they take care of their children still, but they refrain from anything sexual between them and their spouse. They are still married to them however.
People will make great sacrifices for their children and they are to be applauded for that. But to me, it would have been better if they had never felt under pressure to get married in the first place.

Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to place such pressure on gays must accept that it's ok if they personally end up marrying someone who is, in fact, not sexually interested in them at all. Because that's the consequence.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
People will make great sacrifices for their children and they are to be applauded for that. But to me, it would have been better if they had never felt under pressure to get married in the first place.

Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to place such pressure on gays must accept that it's ok if they personally end up marrying someone who is, in fact, not sexually interested in them at all. Because that's the consequence.
I guess society tells children that each child must have a Mother and a Father. Not two of the same or one parent.

That's what changes people. I know friends who are jealous that they are living with a single mother because their father left. The child will hate every person who is living with both parents. (Not really hate, but will cause jealousy.)

The argument is in a lot of cases; should two people of the same gender have a child?

Looking back at the two gay people which came and talk to our class; There are some people who aren't into sex as other people are. They just want to get married, have kids, and then get old. People that are looking for sex shouldn't IMO get married because it usually leads to divorce. Just my opinion.
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Abu Loren
02-24-2013, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Another thing; Where I live, Homosexuality is allowed and encouraged among the youth.
SHOCKING!

I know Canada is not an Islamic state but in Islam this would be considered as making something halal that was haram.

format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
In Toronto, we even have our own "Gay-District" I don't know whether your views are on homosexuality, but it shouldn't matter.
They should rename that city Sodom.

I'm just saddened by your easily acceptance of homosexuality. You admitted the act is a sin yet you condone it. May be it's not you but the society you live in.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
I'm just saddened by your easily acceptance of homosexuality. You admitted the act is a sin yet you condone it. May be it's not you but the society you live in.
Let's say your best friend is gay. What do you do? Tell him it's wrong? Tell others about him? Make him feel uneasy?

It's not society. People ARE indeed born gay, we can't change that. We can make society right for them so they, "come out of the closet."
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Abu Loren
02-24-2013, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Let's say your best friend is gay. What do you do? Tell him it's wrong? Tell others about him? Make him feel uneasy?

It's not society. People ARE indeed born gay, we can't change that. We can make society right for them so they, "come out of the closet."
My friend what you are doing is picking things you like from Islam and ignoring others. Homosexuality is a clear SIN and is forbidden.

Serious question - Do you have homosexual tendencies?
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sister herb
02-24-2013, 08:05 PM
Salam alaykum

As I have understood; being homosexual is not a sin, just behave as homosexual is a sin.

Why we lost so much time and energy with this matter at all?

:nervous:

It is boring.
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Abu Loren
02-24-2013, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

As I have understood; being homosexual is not a sin, just behave as homosexual is a sin.

Why we lost so much time and energy whith this matter at all?

:nervous:

It is boring.
If you're bored move on to something else. Homosexuality is an important subject. It's bovious you don't have any understanding of the matter.
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sister herb
02-24-2013, 08:15 PM
Salam alaykum

Why homosexuality is so important matter then? We all know act is a sin? Do we need to repeat it here in forum again and again?
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 10:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

As I have understood; being homosexual is not a sin, just behave as homosexual is a sin.

Why we lost so much time and energy with this matter at all?

:nervous:

It is boring.
Salaam.

Actually if you read my first post, I have a debate tomorrow for my Psychology class whether or not someone is born gay or it's learned through society or is it a choice?
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Karl
02-24-2013, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Salahudeen
If people are born homosexual wouldn't homosexuals eventually die out since they lack the means to reproduce? :hmm:

Can all people with sexual deviance's play the born this way card? Can a pedophile say, "I was born with this inclination towards children its not my fault why are you blaming me, this is the way god made me why should I be punished for acting upon desires that were with me from birth, I'm naturally like this."

.
Child marriage is halal. Muhammad (PBUH) married a six year old girl and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. So by modern Zionist standards he would be labelled as a paedophile. The enemies of Islam are always raving on about Muhammad (PBUH) as being a "child molester" "predator" and all that other hysterical nonsense. The anti paedophile hysteria was created to attack Islam and other religions where child marriage is ok eg Christianity, Hindu etc. It has been brought about by Godless left wing loonies that promote homosexuality, fornication, pornography, prostitution and every form of filth as long as the participants are 18 years or more old. They will scream in moral outrage against child marriage and the Prophet, these hypocrites of Satan.
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Tyrion
02-24-2013, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Child marriage is halal. Muhammad (PBUH) married a six year old girl and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. So by modern Zionist standards he would be labelled as a paedophile. The enemies of Islam are always raving on about Muhammad (PBUH) as being a "child molester" "predator" and all that other hysterical nonsense. The anti paedophile hysteria was created to attack Islam and other religions where child marriage is ok eg Christianity, Hindu etc. It has been brought about by Godless left wing loonies that promote homosexuality, fornication, pornography, prostitution and every form of filth as long as the participants are 18 years or more old. They will scream in moral outrage against child marriage and the Prophet, these hypocrites of Satan.
Well, it's not so much modern zionist standards as it is regular modern standards. Things may have been different enough a thousand years ago where this would have been fine for both parties, I don't know... But we know that modern children are not suited for marriage at such young ages. To ignore this just because people did it 1400 years ago is ignorant.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
I know Canada is not an Islamic state but in Islam this would be considered as making something halal that was haram.
Homosexuals who want to get married don't want an Islamic marriage. They aren't considered married in the context of Islam. Also, as a side note, the government shouldn't be in the business of forcing a religion down peoples throats.
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Tyrion
02-24-2013, 11:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to place such pressure on gays must accept that it's ok if they personally end up marrying someone who is, in fact, not sexually interested in them at all. Because that's the consequence.
I think a lot of Muslims would say this is okay, and I'm sure you've noticed that a lot of our members don't agree with the idea of marrying someone because you love them... It's seen as (only) a duty to a lot of people. I'm not sure I agree with them though.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion

I think a lot of Muslims would say this is okay, and I'm sure you've noticed that a lot of our members don't agree with the idea of marrying someone because you love them... It's seen as a duty to a lot of people. I'm not sure I agree with them though.
It's not seen. It IS A DUTY! Get married, if you feel like you love them enough and have enough financial support and emotional support, have children.

I believe that personally, if a Muslim believes and is born gay, stay away from homosexuality and get married with the opposite gender! Why? Because Allah Subhanahuwatallah would like that more.
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Iceee
02-24-2013, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Originally Posted by Karl
Child marriage is halal. Muhammad (PBUH) married a six year old girl and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. So by modern Zionist standards he would be labelled as a paedophile. The enemies of Islam are always raving on about Muhammad (PBUH) as being a "child molester" "predator" and all that other hysterical nonsense. The anti paedophile hysteria was created to attack Islam and other religions where child marriage is ok eg Christianity, Hindu etc. It has been brought about by Godless left wing loonies that promote homosexuality, fornication, pornography, prostitution and every form of filth as long as the participants are 18 years or more old. They will scream in moral outrage against child marriage and the Prophet, these hypocrites of Satan.

Well, it's not so much modern zionist standards as it is regular modern standards. Things may have been different enough a thousand years ago where this would have been fine for both parties, I don't know... But we know that modern children are not suited for marriage at such young ages. To ignore this just because people did it 1400 years ago is ignorance.
Salaam.

I think we all agree that the age that you can get married at was way different than it is today. In Canada, you have to be 18 to get married. You can go to jail if you marry anyone 16 or below. I think that's the case for most countries nowadays.
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Karl
02-25-2013, 01:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion

Well, it's not so much modern zionist standards as it is regular modern standards. Things may have been different enough a thousand years ago where this would have been fine for both parties, I don't know... But we know that modern children are not suited for marriage at such young ages. To ignore this just because people did it 1400 years ago is ignorant.
For your information halal is forever and is not affected by secular fads, fashions and junk science. Child marriage still goes on in the Muslim world as it is halal. What's 1400 years ago got to do with anything? Where do you get the idea that "modern" children are any different from one or two thousand years ago. The United Nations and other Red Terror organizations are responsible for instigating the new intolerant bigotry against child marriage. This is a secularist and anti Islam mentality. At the end of the day it is the prerogative of a father when he deems it ok for any of his offspring to get married NOT a collective of Godless busybody lefty liberals to usurp his authority.
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Muslim Woman
02-25-2013, 01:26 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Child marriage is halal. Muhammad (PBUH) married a six year old girl and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old. .
want to explain a little more to avoid any possible confusion . It was not a forced marriage . Aishra ra went to Prophet's res when she reaches at her puberty / after having her mens ; thus she was considered as adult when started her married life .

And Allah Knows Best.
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Karl
02-25-2013, 04:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:
want to explain a little more to avoid any possible confusion . It was not a forced marriage . Aishra ra went to Prophet's res when she reaches at her puberty / after having her mens ; thus she was considered as adult when started her married life .

And Allah Knows Best.
That is correct. It was not a forced marriage. No problem at all. However under the Red Terror dogmas of the United Nations it would be considered a "crime against humanity". lol. But to hell with the UN though. Most of the dogmas they try and spread around the globe are patently anti Islamic. No good Muslim should embrace the UN Red Terror at all. I would also like to point out that it is also halal for a prepubescent to live under her husband's roof if that is the arrangement the family have agreed to. It is however is advised that actual coitus is avoided until the girl attains puberty as it may cause some physical harm if she is not physically ready.
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Iceee
02-25-2013, 04:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
That is correct. It was not a forced marriage. No problem at all. However under the Red Terror dogmas of the United Nations it would be considered a "crime against humanity". lol. But to hell with the UN though. Most of the dogmas they try and spread around the globe are patently anti Islamic. No good Muslim should embrace the UN Red Terror at all. I would also like to point out that it is also halal for a prepubescent to live under her husband's roof if that is the arrangement the family have agreed to. It is however is advised that actual coitus is avoided until the girl attains puberty as it may cause some physical harm if she is not physically ready.
Salaam.

It's halal but a lot of people know why a man marries such a young girl. There's no way even me (an 18 year old) would marry a girl 17 or under. Not because I'm scared of the Law but also for reasons we all know.

Plus, what's a 9 year old girl going to do? Clean the house?

I have the debate tomorrow inshallah on whether or not we are born gay or is it learned through society. Going to go to sleep. Please close this thread, Ja'Zakullah and Salaam all.
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Tyrion
02-25-2013, 04:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
I have the debate tomorrow inshallah on whether or not we are born gay or is it learned through society. Going to go to sleep. Please close this thread, Ja'Zakullah and Salaam all.
Well, what are you taking from the thread? Which side will you debate on now?
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Karl
02-25-2013, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Salaam.

It's halal but a lot of people know why a man marries such a young girl. There's no way even me (an 18 year old) would marry a girl 17 or under. Not because I'm scared of the Law but also for reasons we all know.
And what reasons, may I ask are THEY? "for reason we ALL know"? I don't, so illuminate me on this. To begin with a 17 year old is NOT a "girl", it is a WOMAN. In fact my race are fully grown young adults by age TWELVE. Tell me why you would marry an 18 year old woman but not a 17 year old woman?? Doesn''t make one bit of sense to me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
Plus, what's a 9 year old girl going to do? Clean the house?
Yes she can clean the house, but females of my race are past menses by that age so therefore they are also ready to consummate the marriage as well.
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Tyrion
02-25-2013, 10:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Child marriage still goes on in the Muslim world
Plenty of stuff still goes on in the Muslim world. I don't think you want to use that as your standard for what's right or wrong.
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Karl
02-25-2013, 11:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion

Plenty of stuff still goes on in the Muslim world. I don't think you want to use that as your standard for what's right or wrong.
As I keep saying over and over again, heterosexual marriage, no matter what the lunar ages of the pair is HALAL, not "wrong". Plain and simple and indisputable. Whereas homosexuality is haram no matter what the age the two happen to be. The (anti-Islamic) UN Red Terror of course zealously spread their ageist 18+ homosexuality around the globe in the name of "human rights". They try to shove homosexuality down everyone's throats.
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Iceee
02-25-2013, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion

Well, what are you taking from the thread? Which side will you debate on now?
Salaam.

It was a crazy classroom. I was to debate against my teacher but a girl in our classroom wanted to debate against me for some reason. So we went infront of the 25 students and the teacher and we started. I was nice and let her choose what side she was on; she chose we are born gay (which is what I wanted). I disagreed and it began.

I guess whatever was said on this thread was said. She got really intense and so did I. I had to use some science in order to prove my final point which was:

No, we're born NEITHER homosexual or heterosexual. We're born asexual. As we grow older, we are instinctively driven towards the opposite gender. Being gay is not natural (I'm not trying to be a ****. I mean it's in any animal's nature to reproduce, and you can't do that if you're gay. If you're gay, then there's something wrong with you (nothing wrong with being gay, just wrong in the sense that you can't reproduce which is what we humans are driven to do)).

After this, the teacher stopped us. She said there was no winner. What we said, the way we said it, and our sources (how much information made sense), would be the stuff being marked. More debates to come... :)




format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
And what reasons, may I ask are THEY? "for reason we ALL know"? I don't, so illuminate me on this. To begin with a 17 year old is NOT a "girl", it is a WOMAN. In fact my race are fully grown young adults by age TWELVE. Tell me why you would marry an 18 year old woman but not a 17 year old woman?? Doesn''t make one bit of sense to me.
Salaam.

Well, In Canada, we have an age that we can get married at.

I agree that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) married a pre-teen as well. But nowadays, society wouldn't approve. I mean the girl would be to young. It would be nice for me to get married and my wife help my mother clean our home. But how about for sexual reasons which is a big thing. You can't be doing this with a girl so young. Maybe it is the society we are living in nowadays that changes our opinions.

Please close this thread. Ja'Zakullah for everyones help and opinions.

:threadclo
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sister herb
02-25-2013, 09:44 PM
Salam alykum

Sorry about mess in your class room. Quite of mess this question caused here too.

:embarrass We should learn to talk about kind of matters peacefully.

I agree:

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Hulk
02-26-2013, 12:56 AM
Isn't it silly that you would debate against something you agree with, and stand on the side that you disagree with. If the intention of a debate is to merely win an argument then I suppose it makes sense but if the intention is to seek the truth then it's strange.
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Muslim Woman
02-26-2013, 03:16 AM
:sl:


:threadclo
Reply

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