Was the message of Jesus only for Israel?

[theplains]

You presented to me two different versions of translation of Mat 15:24, but it
still shows that Jesus (PBUH) was sent exclusively for the lost sheep of Israel.
To prove this claim further, we should refer to the context of the verse

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
22 A _*Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of
David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”*_
23 _*Jesus did not answer a word. *_So his disciples came to him and urged him,
“Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “_*I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”*_

If Jesus (PBUH) was sent to mankind, why ignore the woman just because she was
from Canaan?

Thanks. I see your reference.

The disciples lacked understanding at that time. The same as when several wanted
Jesus to bring fire from the sky to consume the unbelievers (Luke 51-56). They
also lacked understanding to believe his message of his death too.

But if you look at verses 25-28 in Matthew 15, the woman's persistent faith
resulted in Jesus acknowledging her. He praised her faith and healed her daughter.

"Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and
said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs. And
she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters'
table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it
unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour".

On a similar thing, also see Christ's interaction with the Samaritan woman and
her village (John 4:7-30).

There are many verses in the Qur'an where Allah (swt) talks to the children of
Israel, the Arabs and also Mankind.

Here's one verse which proves our Prophet (PBUH) was sent for all the worlds (not
just mankind, but also the jin-kind)

And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds. [21:107]

Also, there is a Hadith where the Prophet (PBUH) himself states he was sent to
mankind and not just the Arabs.

*Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only _but I have been sent to all
*mankind_.*' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Rubbing hands and feet with dust
*(Tayammum), Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331)"

The same expression (words)) I use for Jesus (which you deny me) is the same you
use of Muhammad (and you wish me to accept you).

Even though the Quran/Hadith states that Muhammad was sent FOR the worlds, I hope
we can agree that he was not sent TO the worlds.

What is meant by the phrase "to the worlds?"

As I wrote before, Jesus was only sent TO the children of Israel, but his
message is FOR all mankind. That is why he told his disciples, "But ye shall receive
power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto
me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost
part of the earth".

I know that Muslims accept Jesus as a only a prophet of God but I don't know
any Muslim who would say his message was only for the children of Israel during his
lifetime and that this spreading of the gospel ceased with Muhammad. As the words
of Jesus mention, his message was to be spread around the world - and
this message is that he came to seek and to save the lost.

Peace,
Jim

[Abu Loren]

Most definately Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was sent for Israel only.

The LordJesus had come into the world to die for the sin of the whole world, but He hadalso come as Israel's promised Messiah. His seeming harshness to the Canaanitewoman is best understood as not only a test of her faith in the God of Israel,but also as a means to show His disciples that Gentiles also were included inGod's plan, and that they too could have saving faith.
Source:

KJV Defenders Study Bible, by Dr. Henry Morris, Ph.D.
Publisher: Thomas Nelson
Language: English
DEF 10 ISBN 0-529-10444-x
DEF 10-1 ISBN 0-529-10445-8
Christians will never fully understand God because theirpremise from the beginning is wrong. As you can see from the commentary by Dr.Henry Morris on Matthew 15:24 he begins by saying “The Lord Jesus had comeinto the world to die for the sin of the whole world, but He had also come asIsrael's promised Messiah”. If you reject the claim that Jesus came to die forour sins then the whole outlook changes. Notice also that he says that he hadalso came as Israel’s promised Messiah. Not the world’s promised Messiahbecause only Israel was promised a Messiah.
If I can also add this about Christianmisunderstandings, have a look at these verses also from Matthew 15.
15:17 Do not ye yetunderstand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, andis cast out into the draught?
15:18 But those thingswhich proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile theman.
15:19 For out of theheart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, falsewitness, blasphemies:
15:20 These are thethings which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Christians take the above verses to mean that they caneat any food they like, even food that was prohibited in the Old Testament. NowJesus followed the Old Testament because he was following the Jewish tradition.Nowhere does it say that you can eat pig all those verses says is that eatingwith unwashed hands do not defile a man.
So similarly Christians have lost a lot of the meaningsfrom the Bible and to make matters worse the Bible has also been tampered with.Without a doubt the Trinitarians, when they selected the gospels and theepistles deliberately chose those books that favored Trinitarian doctrine. Thisis undeniable.

[جوري]

any Muslim who would say his message was only for the children of Israel during his
lifetime

In fact that is exactly whom he was sent for. I'd referain from speaking on behalf of Muslims because the Quran does tell us Jesus was sent to the children of Israel but so does your bible:

Matthew 15:24 ►

New International Version (©1984) He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."New Living Translation (©2007) Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel." English Standard Version (©2001) He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” New American Standard Bible (©1995) But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) He replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." International Standard Version (©2012) But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) But he answered and said to them, “I am not sent except to the sheep that have strayed from the house of Israel.” GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." King James 2000 Bible (©2003) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. American King James Version But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. American Standard Version But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Douay-Rheims Bible And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel. Darby Bible Translation But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house. English Revised Version But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Webster's Bible Translation But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Weymouth New Testament "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied. World English Bible But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Young's Literal Translation and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.' best, Of course this is what the Quran says if you're in doubts to our beliefs! Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)[3:49] [RECITE] [top] [next match] Warasoolan ila banee israeela annee qad jitukum biayatin min rabbikum annee akhluqu lakum mina altteeni kahayati alttayri faanfukhu feehi fayakoonu tayran biithni Allahi waobrio alakmaha waalabrasa waohyee almawta biithni Allahi waonabbiokum bima takuloona wama taddakhiroona fee buyootikum inna fee thalika laayatan lakum in kuntum mumineena 3:49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

[Insaanah]

Jesus was only sent TO the children of Israel, but his
message is FOR all mankind.

As Muslims we believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sent to the Children of Israel, with his message being for the children of Israel.

The biblical quote above, is one quote, most likely written by a man who never even met Jesus (peace be upon him).

Compare this to the clear, unambiguous, statements, in the Qur'an by Allah, in His own words, and by the Prophet (peace be upon him) in the hadeeth, written exactly as he said them, with an unbroken chain of narration going directly back to him.

Even though the Quran/Hadith states that Muhammad was sent FOR the worlds, I hope we can agree that he was not sent TO the worlds.

You can get bogged down in arguments about for or to, it makes no difference. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent amongst a community in Arabia, as a messenger to and for all the world.

Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.
(part of a longer hadeeth)

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 335
In-book reference : Book 7, Hadith 2
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 7, Hadith 331

Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation exclusively but I have been sent to all mankind. (part of a longer hadeeth)
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 438
In-book reference : Book 8, Hadith 87
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 429

I have been sent to all of mankind whereas the Prophets before me were sent to their own people." (part of a longer hadeeth)
Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 432
In-book reference : Book 4, Hadith 37

....We have sent thee (Muhammad) as a messenger unto mankind and Allah is sufficient as Witness. (4:179, part)

Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided. (7:158)

Compare this to what Jesus (peace be upon him) said:

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." (61:6)

and to what God said about him:

And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel, And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel... (3:48, 49,part)

I know that Muslims accept Jesus as a only a prophet of God

We accept him not only as a prophet of God, but one of the greatest messengers of God, and as the Messiah.

but I don't know
any Muslim who would say his message was only for the children of Israel during his
lifetime and that this spreading of the gospel ceased with Muhammad.

I'm surprised that you know no such Muslim. That is our belief. With the coming of the Qur'an, 100% God's words to mankind, not one word of a human mixed up in it, which clarified what God's message had always been, and pointed out the wrongs that had crept into the previous scriptures, the people of the scriptures were required to follow the Prophet and the scripture revealed to him:

Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him - it is those who will be the successful. (7:157)

In the Qur'an there is reference to Mary and her son being a sign for mankind. (19:21 and 21:91). Tafsir ibn Kathir elaborates:

(And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind) This means a proof and a sign for mankind of the power of their Maker and Creator, Who diversified them in their creation. He created their father, Adam, without a male (father) or female (mother). Then, He created Hawwa' (Adam's spouse) from a male (father) without a female (mother). Then, He created the rest of their progeny from male and female, except `Isa. He caused `Isa to be born from a female without a male. Thus, Allah completed the four types of creation (of the human being), which proves the perfection of His power and the magnificence of His authority. There is no god worthy of worship except Him and there is no true Lord other than Him.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...2687&Itemid=75

Peace.

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[Abu Loren]

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Holy Qur'an that the gave human beings knowledge, wisdom, intellect and reasoing. So we must use these to discern what is the truth and what is falsehood. There are so many accounts in your Bible about the fight that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) had with the Jewish religious authority such as the Sanhedrin, Pharisees etc.

The Jews had gone so far astray that they were selling things inside the Temple of Solomon like it was a market place. You must know the story where Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) overturned their tables and beat the vendors out of the Temple.

Jesus' (Alayhi Salaam) ministry was primarily in Judea, he almost never went outside to preach nor to invite the 'heathens' or 'gentiles'.

You must alse know the verse where Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) tells his followers that he has so much more to tell them but they are unable to bear it because the time has not come. He said the spirit of truth shall come, he will not speak of his own but of the spirit (paraphrasing). This is clearly an indication of the prophet to come Muhammad (Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salaam). Christians would rather deny this, therefore this is a favrourite subjtect for debate at the moement.

If you want to know I advise you to check out Ahamad Deedat (Allah have mercy on him) in youtube.

[Ahmad H]

I see some very good arguments in this post about Jesus' (as) being sent to the Israelites, and the supporting arguments behind Prophet Muhammad (saw) being sent to the whole world. Very impressive. Mashallah.

[theplains]

You must alse know the verse where Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) tells his followers that he has so much more to tell them but they are unable to bear it because the time has not come. He said the spirit of truth shall come, he will not speak of his own but of the spirit (paraphrasing). This is clearly an indication of the prophet to come Muhammad (Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salaam). Christians would rather deny this, therefore this is a favrourite subjtect for debate at the moement.

He told his followers to wait for the Comforter in Jerusalem. The Spirit came on the Feast
of Pentecost, 10 days after his ascension into heaven.

Thanks,
Jim

[Abu Loren]

He told his followers to wait for the Comforter in Jerusalem. The Spirit came on the Feast
of Pentecost, 10 days after his ascension into heaven.

Thanks,
Jim

Unfortunately that's what the Christians believe.

[theplains]

I see some very good arguments in this post about Jesus' (as) being sent to the Israelites, and the supporting arguments behind Prophet Muhammad (saw) being sent to the whole world. Very impressive. Mashallah.

I saw one reference mentioned:

"Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation exclusively but I have been sent to all mankind"
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 438
In-book reference : Book 8, Hadith 87
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 429

How exactly was Muhammad sent to Japan for example?

One translation (quran dot com) says "And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad],
except as a mercy to the worlds" [21:107]

Which worlds?

Thanks,
Jim

[جوري]

How exactly was Muhammad sent to Japan for example?

The same way he was sent to Egypt & Constantinople. We're meant to give da3wah. Those who don't receive it are not punished but their trials begin on the day of judgement. There's no excuse now a days though and there are certainly plenty of chinese and japanese Muslims.

Which worlds?

al3almeen is similar to 3ulaam in Hebrew, that is how :Allah::swt: refers to that which exists and can reason!
if you look up worlds in the dictionary this is what comes up:
Everything that exists anywhere!

best,

[Ahmad H]

I saw one reference mentioned:

"Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation exclusively but I have been sent to all mankind"
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 438
In-book reference : Book 8, Hadith 87
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 8, Hadith 429

How exactly was Muhammad sent to Japan for example?

One translation (quran dot com) says "And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad],
except as a mercy to the worlds" [21:107]

Which worlds?

Thanks,
Jim

The Holy Prophet (saw) was sent to all of mankind because his laws were comprehensive for all of mankind. Every nation before him had Prophets sent to their own people, with laws specified for their own people. Those Prophets did not have any laws that included the country neighboring them. However, the Holy Prophet (saw) had been given laws from Allah which comprehend universal values which every person can use. There is no point going through all 600 something laws on here. But, this is the main point. If you read the Ahadith surrounding the verse of the Holy Qur'an which says that Allah completed the law (5:3), the Jews said that if they had such a verse in their Book, they would have had an 'Eid just for that verse. This is because the Jews did not have a law which was a completion of the laws of Allah, but it was only partial since it was only meant for them.

In the Farewell Pilgrimage, the Holy Prophet (saw) said things which showed he was sent as a mercy to all the worlds, which is that he said no one from any race, skin color or nationality are better then one another, they are all equal. The only thing which distinguishes a human being's being better than another is their righteousness.

The worlds, "Alameen" mean any kind of world. This could mean the animal kingdom, the human race, the planet earth itself, the hidden creatures living amongst us, etc. Alameen is a very comprehensive term, thus, the translation of it in so many translations of the Holy Qur'an is "worlds". The term "worlds" means all kinds of spheres of life, whether in the microcosm or the macrocosm. It means all nations of people, all races, all types of people in general. This is the most obvious meaning because the Holy Prophet (saw) was sent to end strife amongst his people and other races. He ended the tribal bloodshed and revenge killings, he ended the burying of girls alive, he ended the persecution of Muslims by fighting the disbelievers, he ended cruelty to animals, he ended the misusing of natural resources, etc. You have to read his life story and what he did in order to be fully aware of just how he was a "Mercy to all the worlds". He truly was a mercy, because when you read what he did in his life, then you can only exclaim, "how merciful he was! What a forgiving man!" You see this in his treatment towards women, children, etc.

[theplains]

Thank you for the recent comments.

Jim

[MustafaMc]

As the words
of Jesus mention, his message was to be spread around the world - and
this message is that he came to seek and to save the lost.

If you study Peter's dream and his subsequent interactions with Cornelius in Acts 10, you will see that until that time the message of Jesus was preached to the Jews. Peter had reservations about going to the Gentiles which illustrates that the early followers of Jesus were still Jews, albeit enlightened ones. If you also read the first 2 chapters of Galatians you will see that Paul was the self-appointed Apostle to the Gentiles and Peter was Apostle to the Jews (Gal. 2:7). This article by a Christian William Newell sheds additional light on "Paul's Gospel" http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/newell.htm

[theplains]

If you study Peter's dream and his subsequent interactions with Cornelius in Acts 10, you will see that until that time the message of Jesus was preached to the Jews. Peter had reservations about going to the Gentiles which illustrates that the early followers of Jesus were still Jews, albeit enlightened ones. If you also read the first 2 chapters of Galatians you will see that Paul was the self-appointed Apostle to the Gentiles and Peter was Apostle to the Jews (Gal. 2:7). This article by a Christian William Newell sheds additional light on "Paul's Gospel" http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/newell.htm

Paul was commissioned by Jesus Christ (Acts 9:1-29; Galatians chapters 1 and 2). He was
not dreaming. What he preached was in accordance with what the other apostles preached.

Peace,
Jim

[MustafaMc]

Paul was commissioned by Jesus Christ (Acts 9:1-29; Galatians chapters 1 and 2). He was
not dreaming.

You accept on faith that the vision Saul had on the road to Damascus was truly a revelation of Jesus to him. I rather see that Paul was a false prophet and a wolf in sheep's clothing in the manner of Matthew 7:15. There are multiple warnings against false prophets as reported from Jesus and in the OT such as "Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord God,’ when the Lord had not spoken." Ezekiel 22:28

What he preached was in accordance with what the other apostles preached.

Where you see harmony, I see a bitter dispute and rivalry most evidently between Paul on the one hand and James and Peter on the other. I am sure that my understanding of the first 2 chapters of Galatians is vastly different from yours. This portion of the Bible really jumped out at me when I read it again after becoming a Muslim.

Did you read the article at the link I posted? I came upon that article after listening to a TV evangelist, Les Feldick, where he said that Paul was the great revelator of Christianity and that Jesus did not preach the 'gospel' because he hadn't yet died and even Peter did not really grasp the message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. He said it took Paul to get it right. I was so surprised to hear him say as a Christian what I believed as a Muslim that I wrote him a letter.

Galatians 1:11-12 tells me as plain as day that Paul claimed to have received a direct revelation from Jesus after his ascension and then in verse 16 he switches it to God revealed His son to him. Christians accept Paul (either knowingly or unknowingly) as their prophet in the same manner that Muslims accept Muhammad (saaws) as their prophet. Paul was the person most responsible for bringing 'Christianity' to the Gentiles.

I ask you to ponder over the significance of Acts 1:21-22 in light of Paul not being at all qualified according to those criteria or even having listened to one of Jesus' sermons, witnessed a single miracle, or even met him once while he walked on earth.

[theplains]

You accept on faith that the vision Saul had on the road to Damascus was truly a revelation of Jesus to him.

I accept everything the Bible says on faith because I was not personally there. It is
written that Jesus appeared to Saul and spoke to him.

Where you see harmony, I see a bitter dispute and rivalry most evidently between Paul on the one hand and James and Peter on the other. I am sure that my understanding of the first 2 chapters of Galatians is vastly different from yours. This portion of the Bible really jumped out at me when I read it again after becoming a Muslim.

Which rivalry? When you read the scriptures, the apostles accepted Paul's
testimony of his meeting with Jesus and also what he was preaching abroad.

Did you read the article at the link I posted? I came upon that article after listening to a TV evangelist, Les Feldick, where he said that Paul was the great revelator of Christianity and that Jesus did not preach the 'gospel' because he hadn't yet died and even Peter did not really grasp the message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. He said it took Paul to get it right. I was so surprised to hear him say as a Christian what I believed as a Muslim that I wrote him a letter.

Paul did not become a Christian initially. During his conversion, he spent time in Arabia
and Damascus. He went to Jerusalem three years later. By this time, the Christian
Church was already growing (which officially started on the Day of Pentecost when the
Holy Spirit came upon the disciples).

True, the disciples did not understand Christ's death and resurrection. They were only
convinced when he appeared to them. Then their character changed from fearful and
cowardly to boldly proclaiming the gospel.

The 'gospel' as your refer to is the translation of the Greek noun euangelion meaning
“good news”. Jesus did preach this while he was still alive. He is the gospel - and it
encompasses the death, burial, and resurrection.

The disciples could not understand this at first but they did afterwards.

The Jews could not understand a Messiah who would suffer ... they were expecting a
conquering hero who would deliver them from Roman oppression. That is why they
are still waiting for a Messiah today ... for they (apart from some) rejected him when
he came as a lowly servant ... who came to seek and to save the lost.

I ask you to ponder over the significance of Acts 1:21-22 in light of Paul not being at all qualified according to those criteria or even having listened to one of Jesus' sermons, witnessed a single miracle, or even met him once while he walked on earth.

When you meet the resurrected Christ in glory that is all you need. Paul's life, and
the miracles that God performed through him afterwards, are sufficient qualifications.
The other apostles also displayed similar miraculous works.

I used to have a Hindu neighbour. He seemed to pick and choose what he wanted
to believe from the Bible. He really like the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.
But what he couldn't understand or did not want to believe he rejected ... even the
words of Jesus in other chapters. I think even so-called Christians are guilty of this.
That is why there are many divisions. I think its the same with Muslims and how they
interpret the Quran ... in the various sects that have arisen. But one should not consider
themselves a Christian if they reject what the gospel is.

Peace,
Jim

[MustafaMc]

I accept everything the Bible says on faith because I was not personally there. It is
written that Jesus appeared to Saul and spoke to him.

I understand that you accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God. There is nothing I can write that would enable you to see the NT as I do - primarily as a collection of loosely cohesive sayings in the 4 gospels about what Jesus said and did, letters of instructions from Paul to various churches, and a book about an apocalyptic dream.

Very little of the NT even claims to be words spoken by Jesus of which some may be accurate, but it is hard to judge how close they come in reflecting the meanings of what Jesus spoke - most likely in Aramaic. Muslims see Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) as servants, messengers and prophets of God. I believe that very little of the revelation to Jesus was accurately preserved in the modern Bible. Amazingly, the importance of this fact is lost to Christians as they see that what Jesus actually said and did while walking on earth was surpassed in importance by what they believe he did on the cross. This is reflected in what you wrote, "He is the gospel - and it encompasses the death, burial, and resurrection".

The 4 canonical gospels were chosen at the Synod of Hippo in 393 from among a multitude of others. It takes little imagination to see that the criteria for approval was those most closely aligned with church dogma as established at the Council of Nicea in 323. In contrast the Qur'an was written down and memorized in toto while Prophet Muhammad was alive and then compiled into one assemblage very soon after his death in 632. The Qur'an as we have it today with vowel and punctuation marks was finalized in 650. The details of Muhammad's (saaws) life were preserved in volumes of hadith.

The person most central to Christian theology is Paul as so indicated by Paul's Gospel http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1576576 while Muhammad (saaws) is of course most central to Islamic theology. The NT is critical to Christians as is the Qur'an to Muslims. Both Christians and Muslims have faith that there respective books are from God. Muslims acknowledge a most basic element of Islam is the acceptance of Muhammad as the Messenger of Go as evidenced by the shahadah, but Christians don't fully realize the significance of the enormous claim that Paul made in the first chapter of Galatians of having received a revelation from God.

Which rivalry? When you read the scriptures, the apostles accepted Paul's
testimony of his meeting with Jesus and also what he was preaching abroad.

Even though Paul wrote Galatians, there is enough there for one with an unbiased perspective to 'read between the lines' and see a conflict between Paul and the disciples of Jesus. He would of course had toned down this conflict and written such that others would think what he was saying was mostly in agreement with Peter and James. This would convey a sense of authority for what he was writing.

I think its the same with Muslims and how they
interpret the Quran ... in the various sects that have arisen.

I am not sure what you mean by this as I see that Muslims are very much in agreement with how the Qur'an is interpreted.

[theplains]

Even though Paul wrote Galatians, there is enough there for one with an unbiased perspective to 'read between the lines' and see a conflict between Paul and the disciples of Jesus.

You should read all of the NT, especially Peter, James, Jude, Titus, Hebrews, etc.
There is total agreement on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Without
it, there would be no church.

I am not sure what you mean by this as I see that Muslims are very much in agreement with how the Qur'an is interpreted.

I think either the Sunnis (or Shiites, not sure which) don't accept Muhammad as the final
prophet. They believe someone after him was appointed to be the next leader. The
Ahmadiyas believe Jesus was crucified and survived, something the Quran denies. The
Suffis, I hear, also take a more mystical interpretation of the Quran. These are the main
divisions that I am aware of.

As with Islam, there are various sects of Christianity that have differing interpretations.
Unfortunately, the current leader of Iran believes that he himself is destined to be used
of God to bring about a future apocalypse to usher in the arrival of the Mahdi.

Peace,
Jim

[جوري]

As with Islam,

Islam is 90% sunnis the rest we can't be responsible for. Ahmadiyyas as you mention are heretics instated by the British when they occupied India to prevent Jihad against them. Popular amongst the ignorant is anything involving money and BS.
There is simply no comparison otherwise in fact Christianity stands quite monolithic from ALL Abrahamic faiths!

best,

[MustafaMc]

You should read all of the NT, especially Peter, James, Jude, Titus, Hebrews, etc.
There is total agreement on the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Without
it, there would be no church.

I was referring specifically to Galatians 1 & 2, but you are not able to see the connection between "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." and "Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed". Paul spoke frequently about salvation through faith while James (and presumably the other disciples as well though not recorded) countered with "faith without works is dead". You are unable to see what I see because you are blinded by the bias of your faith that there was harmony between Paul and the disciples.

I think either the Sunnis (or Shiites, not sure which) don't accept Muhammad as the final
prophet. They believe someone after him was appointed to be the next leader.

Both Sunni and Shi'a accept Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as the last prophet and messenger of Allah. They differ primarily on the leadership after he died, but this is due to differences in interpreting and acceptance of different hadith (sayings of Muhammad distinct from Qur'an) not the Qur'an. I had a Shi'a room mate in college and the Qur'an he loaned me was the Yusuf Ali translation that is widely accepted by Sunni Muslims. There is only one version of the Qur'an in Arabic for all who are considered to be Muslims. There are various translations of the meaning into English that do have some differences, but basically they all say the same thing with small differences in specific English wording.

[MustafaMc]

I think we can all agree that Jesus and his disciples were all practicing Jews and that Paul was the person most responsible for the initial outreach to the non-Jew. Why did Paul have to receive a special revelation for the 'gospel' he preached instead of going straight to the disciples to learn from them what Jesus said and did? The answer is because the 'gospel' is not at all about what Jesus said and did while he walked on earth, rather the 'gospel' that Paul preached is what Jesus did on the cross. Paul was the "Jew's Jew" before his vision and then afterwards he stood opposed to the Jewish Law and preached to the Gentiles a message that was not on the lips of Jesus.

[theplains]

I was referring specifically to Galatians 1 & 2, but you are not able to see the connection between "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed." and "Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed".

This was about eating certain foods when the Gentiles were present and then changing
when the Jews appeared. This has nothing to do with the gospel (the death, burial,
and resurrection of Christ).

Maybe you have a different understanding of what the gospel is?

Paul spoke frequently about salvation through faith while James (and presumably the other disciples as well though not recorded) countered with "faith without works is dead". You are unable to see what I see because you are blinded by the bias of your faith that there was harmony between Paul and the disciples.

It would help if you understand the proper context of what they said. Paul is approaching it
from works of the law. James is approaching it from works of faith. Don't compare apples to
oranges.

Paul and the disciples are in perfect harmony on what the gospel is - like I said before, its
the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Read the chapters that has Paul telling them
what he preached. They are in harmony my friend.

Both Sunni and Shi'a accept Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as the last prophet and messenger of Allah. They differ primarily on the leadership after he died, but this is due to differences in interpreting and acceptance of different hadith (sayings of Muhammad distinct from Qur'an) not the Qur'an. I had a Shi'a room mate in college and the Qur'an he loaned me was the Yusuf Ali translation that is widely accepted by Sunni Muslims. There is only one version of the Qur'an in Arabic for all who are considered to be Muslims. There are various translations of the meaning into English that do have some differences, but basically they all say the same thing with small differences in specific English wording.

Thank you for the clarification.

Any insight into Ahmadiyya and Suffis?

Peace,
Jim

[theplains]

Why did Paul have to receive a special revelation for the 'gospel' he preached instead of going straight to the disciples to learn from them what Jesus said and did? The answer is because the 'gospel' is not at all about what Jesus said and did while he walked on earth, rather the 'gospel' that Paul preached is what Jesus did on the cross. Paul was the "Jew's Jew" before his vision and then afterwards he stood opposed to the Jewish Law and preached to the Gentiles a message that was not on the lips of Jesus.

Not sure why it took a special vision for Paul but what he preached was told to the
apostles and they accepted him. We have some record of what Jesus said to Paul
when he appeared on the road to Damascus. Barnabas, Timothy, and Titus were other
disciples who co-laboured with Paul in spreading the gospel. The gospel of Jesus
is the fulfilment of the Jewish Law.

Peace,
Jim

[greenhill]

Salaam from a newbie.

I truly believe that it is a never ending thing to seek the truth. As such we must be prepared for the journey. Ready or not, it is a journey we have to take.

We have to start with ourselves, before we question Allah. We have to accept that Allah IS Supreme in everything. HE is the best of planners. Islam has multi dimensions and it all fits in very well if you have the right intentions.

When a specific question like this comes along, we have to accept that it is related to the over all grand scheme of things that Allah, the Greatest of Planners, has devised.

This is my understanding of the 'evolvement' of religion. Correct me if I am wrong. Won't go into too much detail but will keep it brief.

First, as muslim we believe that all the 'kitab' originated from Allah, and Ibrahim (pbuh) as the father of religion due to his personal quest to seek the One True God in a pagan world.

(Fast forward some centuries or millenia)

The Jews during Egyptian times believed in the God of Ibrahim and did not accept Pharaoh's claim to be God. Hence they were the chosen people (then), favoured by Allah for their belief in HIM. However, the arrival of Moses (pbuh) with the Torah was just too much for the Jews to take in after generations of self rule. They rebelled! They went further to alter the Book to suit them.

David (pbuh) brought the Psalms or Zabur, a lighter message to remind people to appreciate, love, be thankful for the blessing bestowed upon them by Allah.

Essentially, the Torah taught 'to do unto others what you expect others to do unto you'. If you don't want to get slapped, don't go slapping other people. It was a guideline how to live your life. The Zabur taught you to praise Allah, give thanks to him (although most of the teachings are now lost).

Over a period of time, when the Jews finally completed their compilation of the Torah, Jesus (pbuh) was sent to correct them, we all know what happened then. What was new in the teachings of Jesus? Essentially, it was forgiveness. The 'eye for an eye' of the Torah script lead to vengence and would never end for those who felt that it is their right as provided by their law. In accepting Jesus' teachings, generational feuds could be put to an end.

Of course when the Romans decided to take Christianity as their official religion, they adopted a particular sect within the faith that reflected their previous belief in multiple gods, so to choose a 3 in 1 fitted the bill ever so perfectly. They also chose the Catholic system as it had the hierarchical system of control well suited to their style of governing. All other books were systematically destroyed.

The arrival of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought the Quran. To recap, the Zabur reminds us to glorify, appreciate Allah, the Torah gave us the mechanics of conducting life, the Bible taught to to forgive, and once humanity could grasp these quaint concepts, the Quran guided us on how to live in a community. How can we live in a community without these basic human ingredients? Hence completing the message.

Unfortunately, the Jews rejected Jesus (pbuh), his followers ended up creating a new religion. Likewise, when they rejected Muhammad (pbuh) Islam became a separate religion. So we now have 3 religions that was supposed to be only one.

[Logikon]

The 4 canonical gospels were chosen at the Synod of Hippo in 393 from among a multitude of others.

.....the criteria for approval was those most closely aligned with church dogma as established at the Council of Nicea in 323.

No, all the other writings were repetitous. They all said the same thing. Christ works miracles and dies on the cross. Having a multitude of books that all say the same thing is not useful.

[MustafaMc]

No, all the other writings were repetitous.

Do you have a document that specifies the books that were rejected and the reason for doing so?

[MustafaMc]

Having a multitude of books that all say the same thing is not useful.

Perchance, have you read the book, "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew" or "Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make it into the New Testament" by Bart Ehrman, Professor and chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill? I think you would be surprised to learn the truth about the actual origin of the NT canon and Christianity as we know them today.