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Timothy
03-19-2013, 01:33 AM
I am a 58 year old man in the Washington DC area. Father of Irish descent and mother of Spanish descent. I grew up Catholic, socially liberal, went to Catholic schools, college educated, professional, ran my own business, married, divorced, adult children, taught religious sunday school for over 12 years, studied and read a lot of theology books and authors, and have been a good Christian for nearly 40 years. I've had enough of the hypocritical and intolerance of so-called good religious people. Oh and I'm I'm love with a practicing Muslim woman. I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women. The answers I've heard may apply to young families, but do not make sense to couples who are not raising children. Even the Catholic Church allows for interfaith marriages as long as the couple goes through education classes to be sure they have a solid understanding of the differences. Besides i only worship one God. That's it. It's in our Creed. One of the things I'm most impressed with is the reverence she has for her faith. It's very similar to my upbringing. I'm fascinated by the discussions I've read so far and want to talk to my Catholic and Muslim brothers and sisters here.
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Iceee
03-19-2013, 01:54 AM
Salaam.

Welcome to our forums.
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YusufNoor
03-19-2013, 02:22 AM
Oh and I'm I'm love with a practicing Muslim woman. I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women.

both men and women have rights. men aren't protected from unbelieving women as women are so protected from unbelievers. a marriage with you could end up with the sister being forced to viloate her faith. if you love her and want to help protect her from the hellfire, become a Muslim. if not, leave the sister alone.

you most assuredly DO NOT believe in 1 God. as a Catholic, you are a trinitarian. whether you think that is 3 gods in 1, or 1 god in three, you still have 3. and prayer is worship, so you're "hail Mary's" add a 4th. if you truly want to be a monotheist, learn about Islam.

peace
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Abu Loren
03-19-2013, 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by Timothy
Oh and I'm I'm love with a practicing Muslim woman. I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women.
You're in love with a Muslim woman but is she also in love with you? If she is then that is not allowed in Islam. Also she is not allowed to marry a man from outside of Islam, you are considered a kufr (non believer).

I agree with bro. Yusuf that Catholics believe in 3 gods and not one no matter however they want to deny it.

I suggest you learn more about Islam and read the English translations of the Holy Qur'an with an open mind. Ask Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala to guide you to the Truth and the Straight Path.
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IAmZamzam
03-19-2013, 03:23 AM
Guys, you are not helping him right now! How do you think you'd react if you were in his shoes right now?

Look, Timothy, what exactly is it you want to know? I'd like to help you if I can but I'm not sure what it is you want from us. Or was any of that a request? Was it just complaining?
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Iceee
03-19-2013, 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by Timothy
I'm I'm love with a practicing Muslim woman
Hi,

You need to provide more information for us to help you, what exactly do you want?
About the part I quoted, is it love on first sight? Are you talking to her everyday? Does she look at you or notice you? Are you two dating?

If you see her and seem to like her, your best bet is to talk to her parents. In order to even have a chance to get her parents' approval, you need to convert to Islam. Don't think you have a chance:
Originally Posted by Timothy
I am a 58 year old man in the Washington DC area. Father of Irish descent and mother of Spanish descent. I grew up Catholic, socially liberal, went to Catholic schools, college educated, professional, ran my own business, married, divorced, adult children, taught religious sunday school for over 12 years, studied and read a lot of theology books and authors, and have been a good Christian for nearly 40 years.
If you are 58 years old, then your chances of getting married will be much lower especially since you have gotten divorced. How old is she?


If you and her are talking to one another everyday, then I cannot and will not help a Muslim woman and a Catholic Man. No offense.
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Naeema
03-19-2013, 03:47 AM
Salaam,

Welcome. We can be a tough bunch (the mods have their hands full with trolls) but there are people of different faiths here in a lively conversation. God willing, it will be a good place for you too.

I lived in a convent for several years as a young woman and attended a Catholic university. While I left the Church during a dark night of the soul, I still have some fond memories of kneeling on beeswax-rubbed floors in the wee hours before dawn. As it happens, it is that appreciation for God in darkness and a strong sense of charity that drew me to Islam now.

While love is beautiful, there is no provision in Islam like a Dispensation of Disparity of Cult. I will pray for you both that a path become clear to you. I think it would be quite interesting to discuss your questions and views in the comparative religion forum.

-Naeema
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cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
03-19-2013, 04:01 AM
A Kufr is somebody who COVERS up the truth, one who has been presented with and fully understands the message being given and THEN rejects it or behaves as though it doesn't exist. We should refrain from calling anybody that as you have no clue of what is in a persons heart. Way to make a good impression of Muslims. :raging: You also don't have a clue as to what the hail mary's really are. *facepalm*

Brother Timothy first I apologize for the comments you received as soon as you walked in here. Second, we do need more details in order to understand what the problem is. If you want to marry this woman, you do have to be Muslim as non muslim men are prohibited for Muslim women. It isn't simply a cultural thing, it is ordained by Allah and there's wisdom behind that.

I reverted to Islam from catholicism, so I'm familiar with your beliefs. I hope that we can be of help to you God willing.

- cOsMiC
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Muslim Woman
03-19-2013, 04:38 AM
Salaam/ Peace


Welcome here .


God Almighty did not allow mulsim women to marry non Muslims.

I sugeest that u study about Islam . If u ever feel that Islam is the Truth , then accept it . Only then u 2 can marry .

May God help u to find out the truth.
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Amat Allah
03-19-2013, 04:52 AM
Greetings,

Welcome my respected and noble brother to islamic board as a new precious member of our big family...

Please, search the different sections of the forum so, you can find some answers for Qs you may have and if not just ask us your brothers and sisters and we will try to help ya after our Lord, Lord Willing.

for that Muslim sister you know my noble brother; if you wanna marry her then ask her and see what she will answer ya and if she is a really practicing muslimah then she will tell ya the truth and help ya to understand, God Willing.

and I assure you my respected brother that we muslim women have all rights and more; Islam came and gave us all beauty and happiness; we are so honored and protected with this way of life which our Creator blessed us with and if islam wasn't fair with females then why would many non muslims embrace it???

and about the matter of the muslim woman not marrying a non muslim then you are a man my respected brother and you do know how females are so emotional following their hearts more than mind and sense...and if marrying a non muslim then that may affect her faith and even the children she will have in the future that's why Lord is trying to protect us as faithful slaves and servants giving us the best always and also saving this amazing and pure way of life from vanishing, changing, weakening and be corrupted.

Honestly, as a muslim female i swear by The One Who has my soul in His Hand that I am happy and have all my rights in full and more from my Lord and every time I see how much wisdom and mercy are hidden behind each and every single teaching and rulling of this religion of God, indeed it is from God, All Praise, Thanks and Glory be to The Only One Who deserves to Be worshipped The Most Compassionate The Most Merciful The All Knowing and Wise.

I respect you my brother no matter who you are , what you are and where you are and I really wish ya happiness. May Allah lead your way to the path of the endless happiness giving ya the best always and forever Ameeeeeen

Take the best care of your precious self, God Willing.

Leaving you under Allah's sight, care and protection...

Humbly and with all respect, your sister:

Amat Allah.
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Timothy
03-19-2013, 04:58 AM
Wow. I appreciate your kind words. I do indeed believe there is only one God. I do believe Catholics get confused about the symantics of the language in our Nicene Creed... "I believe in one God maker of heaven and earth..." As Muslims are afraid to as theological questions for fear of being criticized harshly. I can see that in a few of the comments. That's a barrier that, Inshallah, you can overcome. My faith says "we believe in one God" is the declarative statement of faith. Any reference of how we experience God is a literary expression as God made language, as he made us in His image, as art is to sight, sound is to hearing, and fragrances are to smell. I understand the importance and avoidance to idols, but thats not idol worship; but one could use the extreme of the use of currency could be construed as worshiping money in our hearts. God gave use the ability to have free association of expression to experience the world as well as to thank him for His beautiful creation, Alh.
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IslamicRevival
03-19-2013, 05:20 AM
Originally Posted by Iceee
Hi,

You need to provide more information for us to help you, what exactly do you want?
About the part I quoted, is it love on first sight? Are you talking to her everyday? Does she look at you or notice you? Are you two dating?

If you see her and seem to like her, your best bet is to talk to her parents. In order to even have a chance to get her parents' approval, you need to convert to Islam. Don't think you have a chance:


If you are 58 years old, then your chances of getting married will be much lower especially since you have gotten divorced. How old is she?


If you and her are talking to one another everyday, then I cannot and will not help a Muslim woman and a Catholic Man. No offense.
With all due respect, this isn't the Jeremy Kyle or Trisha show. Chillax
Timothy, i sincerely hope and pray you find your way to the straight path. Allah guides whom he wills
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Timothy
03-19-2013, 05:23 AM
Thank you for your very kind words. With all due respect, women may have a better verbal skills than men but it doesn't discount their emotional intelligence over logic and reason. On the contrary, when women take leadership roles, it shows a balance and maturity that often men lack. It makes men work harder at analyzing issues rather than formatting paternalistic attitudes that thwart intelligent women's rights. God made men and women equal in all thing, yet we have our physical gender differences, in His image and likeness. Respect and caring is the fundemental is the essence of love, which requires feelings and critical thinking skills that men and women can share. I believe as you said, we are servants of God, and we express that in our actions to one another. Jesus said (peace be upon him) love Go with your whole heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. This fulfills the whole law.
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Timothy
03-19-2013, 05:30 AM
Thanks for your kind words. What was your training or experience as a Christian before reverting? I find symantics in the differences.
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MustafaMc
03-19-2013, 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by Timothy
I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women.
Perhaps you do not see a distinction between religious and cultural rules, but Muslims accept as a part of their religion certain rules that may seem cultural to outsiders. Such religious rules may include male circumcision, hijab, men allowed up to 4 wives, and women forbidden to marry anyone except a Muslim. Forget the fact that this Muslimah would be turning away from a clearly accepted Islamic requirement for her marry only another believer, a man is seen as the leader of the family and would likely lead her further into disobedience of Muhammad's sunnah. Say, for example, you love bacon, eggs, toast and orange juice for breakfast and you want her to cook you pork products that she may eventually start eating as well. As a Catholic, you may want a statue of the Madonna or a crucifix with the image of Jesus on a cross in your home which is clearly forbidden in Islam.

Christians say they believe in One God (as I did when I was a Christian), but they also believe that Jesus was at the same time the only begotten Son of God and God Incarnate. This belief about Jesus is refuted over and over again in the Qur'an and it is an article of Islamic faith to reject this belief as false. Surah Ikhlas illustrates this clearly and succinctly, "Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begets not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him." We also reject the notion that we were created in the physical image of God, which clearly implies that we humans are comparable in appearance to God, astaghfir Allah (may Allah forgive me).
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Timothy
03-19-2013, 05:42 AM
While love is beautiful, there is no provision in Islam like a Dispensation of Disparity of Cult. I will pray for you both that a path become clear to you. I think it would be quite interesting to discuss your questions and views in the comparative religion forum.

-Naeema[/QUOTE]

I found even in Christianity some groups go to great lengths to show "unequally yoked" issues but forget that it's only to preserve the institution and keep people from asking real questions. I believe we have more in common that unites us than seperates us from the love of God. A priest told me one time, every man of faith questions their faith sometimes, but isn't it God who prays within us that gives us the gift of faith? If show love, are we not acting out his love within us? I do love this woman, yet she says she cannot marry me unless I revert. But it's not the religion that marries us, we marry each other. I know this sounds like hogwash to some, but really it's true.
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Timothy
03-19-2013, 06:02 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Perhaps you do not see a distinction between religious and cultural rules, but Muslims accept as a part of their religion certain rules that may seem cultural to outsiders. Such religious rules may include male circumcision, hijab, men allowed up to 4 wives, and women forbidden to marry anyone except a Muslim. Forget the fact that this Muslimah would be turning away from a clearly accepted Islamic requirement for her marry only another believer, a man is seen as the leader of the family and would likely lead her further into disobedience of Muhammad's sunnah. Say, for example, you love bacon, eggs, toast and orange juice for breakfast and you want her to cook you pork products that she may eventually start eating as well. As a Catholic, you may want a statue of the Madonna or a crucifix with the image of Jesus on a cross in your home which is clearly forbidden in Islam.

Christians say they believe in One God (as I did when I was a Christian), but they also believe that Jesus was at the same time the only begotten Son of God and God Incarnate. This belief about Jesus is refuted over and over again in the Qur'an and it is an article of Islamic faith to reject this belief as false. Surah Ikhlas illustrates this clearly and succinctly, "Say: He is Allah, the One! Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begets not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him." We also reject the notion that we were created in the physical image of God, which clearly implies that we humans are comparable in appearance to God, astaghfir Allah (may Allah forgive me).
Nobody believes that! Even Fundementalist Christians that i find as small minded would not say that "image and likeness of God says we look like him. That's a complete wrong notion. It's a Metaphor. God made us to Love. God made us equally to each other. You express it like we do when you worship... Rich man, poor man, black women and white women. We were made to love God and each other. Symbols are not real. The are artistic reminders of our faith like photos if your family you have on your wall but less realistic. Iconoclast expressions are like texting without pictures.
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Timothy
03-19-2013, 06:05 AM
Thank you
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MustafaMc
03-19-2013, 06:19 AM
Timothy, it is not a far stretch from "he made us in His image" to believing that a human being born to a virgin, Jesus, is God. What Christian does not believe that Jesus was God Incarnate? I remind you of the definition for image, "a reproduction or imitation of the form of a person or thing; especially : an imitation in solid form". If you want to claim that "image" in your use is metaphorical, then you can also say that Jesus is not REALLY the literal, physical Son of God (astaghfir Allah), but rather metaphorically so to reflect an intimate relationship.
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Timothy
03-19-2013, 06:25 AM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
You're in love with a Muslim woman but is she also in love with you? If she is then that is not allowed in Islam. Also she is not allowed to marry a man from outside of Islam, you are considered a kufr (non believer).

I agree with bro. Yusuf that Catholics believe in 3 gods and not one no matter however they want to deny it.



I suggest you learn more about Islam and read the English translations of the Holy Qur'an with an open mind. Ask Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala to guide you to the Truth and the Straight Path.
We believe in one God. You should re-read the neceed creed again. First line say, we believe in one God.

The Catholic Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own.

I believe in one God too and have more in common than you give credit.
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Amat Allah
03-19-2013, 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by Timothy
I do indeed believe there is only one God
I am happy that you do and that's the first part of the testimony (I bear witness that there is no god worthy to be worshipped but Allah)

Originally Posted by Timothy
As Muslims are afraid to as theological questions for fear of being criticized harshly
No, it is not that but we already knew Allah through His Names and Attributes He taught us in His Book and through His prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and that's all we need to know cause with asking so many Questions which their answers are only with Allah then satan may drag us to disbelieve...we do keep our limits to not fall in the web of satan's whispers, we are not to ask about the unseen and the not known but by Allah cause it is a waste of the time and a dangerous path to take having a bad ending for sure.

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Shaytaan comes to some of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ – until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens, then let him seek refuge with Allaah and stop thinking about that.”

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: Some of the companions of the Prophet (S) came and asked him: We find in ourselves something that is too awful for any of us to speak of it. He said: “Do you really find that?” They said: Yes. He said: “That is clear faith.” Narrated by Muslim (132). Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: What this means is: the fact that you think of this whispers as something terrible is a clear sign of faith, for if you dare not utter it and you are so afraid of it and of speaking of it, let alone believing it, this is the sign of one who has achieved perfect faith and who is free of doubt .

we the slaves are to focus on remembrance (dhikr) of the Most Merciful, studying His verses and what it says in His Book of His most beautiful names and sublime attributes, and acknowledging His greatness, majesty, beauty and perfection that are mentioned in His Book and in the Sunnah of His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Originally Posted by Timothy
as he made us in His image
We don't beileve in this cause God told us not about that and also we believe that God as He taught us:

"There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer. (11)" Surat Ash-Shura

Then nothing like Him and we don't know how He Is The Exalted but we are promised to see Him AlMight in Paradise, May Allah ease our way to it and bless us with this greatest pleasure Ameeeen

Originally Posted by Timothy
I understand the importance and avoidance to idols, but thats not idol worship
Yes, but still not the religion of Islam ...

One of the basic principles of belief in Islam, something which is obviously a basic principle and on which all the Muslims are agreed (ijmaa’) is that there is no true religion on the face of the earth apart from Islam. It is the final religion which abrogates all religions and laws that came before it There is no religion on earth according to which Allaah is to be worshipped apart from Islam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):

“This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâm as your religion” [al-Maa’idah 5:3]

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85].

After the coming of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), Islam means what he brought, not any other religion.

at the end my respected brother; if getting any harsh replies from others then this is not because they are bad or our religion encourages us tbe be but we are human and when you see the thing or the one you love the most insulted you right away get offended and respond with anger...still our Lord taught us to seek rufuge with Him from satan to not be angry and to deal with others with kindness and wisdom...May Allah guide us all and keep us guided and firm on His straight path Ameeeen

May Allah make happiness the title of every single moment of your precious life my respected and noble brother Ameeeen

Humbly, your sister:

Amat Allah.
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Alpha Dude
03-19-2013, 07:55 AM
Hi Timothy,

You've posted a series of statements but haven't asked a question so not sure what it is you are seeking here, in terms of guidance. However:

I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women.
It's not cultural. This is a rule that is part of Islam, the religion. The Muslim sister, if she is reciprocating your feelings and your thoughts on the matter would be committing a major, major sin in Islam.

That's the Islamic position on the matter. She can do as she pleases and so can you but there is no way that she can marry you and still consider herself a good Muslim. Such a marriage/union would not be recognised and she would be committing fornication.
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Amat Allah
03-19-2013, 08:18 AM
Women can surpass men in their reason, religious commitment and wisdom; I know that women are smart and away better than men in different fields and the same for men of course and that does not contradict the fact of us being more emotional than men and yes, we are. And judging things with our hearts mean not that we are less intelligent but it is a moment of weakness may take us out of logic sometimes and make us slip. That may happen also for men but it happens often with women for the gentle nature they have...Thanks Lord.
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piXie
03-19-2013, 08:47 AM
I do love this woman, yet she says she cannot marry me unless I revert
What prevents you brother?
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YusufNoor
03-19-2013, 12:02 PM
:sl:

bismiallah ar rahman ar raheem,

is this the "Art Linkletter" IslamicBoard? perhaps a dating site?

subhanAllah!

Brother Timothy:

if you wish to start a thread on why you feel that Catholicism is monotheism, you could do that in the comparative religion section. anyone who wanted to join in on that discussion could do so. for our purposes hear, let me quote from al Fatihah, the very 1st surah in the Qur'an"

Iyyaka Na'budu wa Iyyaka Nesta'eem

translation:

You Alone we worship and You Alone we seek guidance

the "You Alone" is refrenced in the line "Alhamdulillahi Raabil alamin"

translation:

ALL true and heartfelt thanks and praises are due to Allah (the One True God and THE ONLY ONE worthy of worship [who is] The Creator, Sustainer, Nuturer, Healer (etc) of all that exists.

prayer is a form of worship, thus we ONLY pray to Allah, the One True God and THE ONLY ONE worthy of worship. thus, to pray to ANYONE or ANYTHING else is shirk [which roughly means polytheism]

we, as Muslims, have no need to refer to any of the Ecumenical councils in Christian history. it is unnecessary. we only need to learn about Islam. some of us, contrary to what the good sister may think, are well versed in some parts of Christianity. i, myself, was born, raised and confirmed as a Catholic in the 60's and early 70's.

you ""think/imagine" that you only believe in 1 God. in your Bible, in the Gospel that is attributed to [a/some] John, you clearly have 2 gods. it took centuries for the "holy spirit" to become god. let us attempt to clarify your beliefs for you:

is "the father god", God in your opinion? [we'll ignore that fact, for now that "deis pater" is an ancient Indo/European form of the father god, which became Jupiter in the Greek language]

is Jesus god? [and you may "cap" whichever words you prefer, i don't have the same desire]

is the holy spirit god?

is Mary the mother of god?

was "the logos" god or not?

was "the logos" always god?

a few other points:

do you pray to Jesus?

do you pray to Mary?

do you pray to any "Catholic saints?"

finally, if you want to give me dispensation, get me dispensation from my taxes and i will listen attentively!

peace
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MustafaMc
03-19-2013, 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by Timothy
We believe in one God. You should re-read the neceed creed again. First line say, we believe in one God.
Yes, and if you would stop at, "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible." then I would fully agree that you believe in One God; however, this statement of unity is immediately negated with, "And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end". There are 20 words allocated to the Father and 128 to Jesus which clearly reflects the Christian focus on Jesus in their worship. There is no Muslim that can disagree with the essence of the statement in blue except for the use of the word 'father' which implies having offspring. Likewise, there is no Muslim who will accept the statement in red as they see it as ascribing partners (a human being, Jesus) with Allah (glorified and exalted is He above this). The portions in bold and underlined are particularly noteworthy.

There is an ayat (verse) of the Qur'an that is most often used to allegorically describe Allah, <Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is as a niche wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a shining star. (This lamp is) kindled from a blessed tree, an olive neither of the East nor of the West, whose oil would almost glow forth (of itself) though no fire touched it. Light upon light. Allah guides unto His light whom He will. And Allah speaks to mankind in allegories, for Allah is Knower of all things.> We know that Allah is above comparison to his creation, including Jesus, and words used to describe Allah should not be used to describe anything else.
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Timothy
03-19-2013, 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by piXie
What prevents you brother?
What prevents me is what seems like 'form over function' is the systemic denial of my Abrahamic tradition. There are things that Jesus struggled with over the very legalistic religious people who were self righteous and had no regard for people, only law. "Let those who were without sin cast the first stone." If I say, I believe in one God, why does that offen so many Muslims? Just because I don't quote the same verses they do? Freedom of thought doesn't seem to be encouraged.
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MustafaMc
03-19-2013, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Timothy
If I say, I believe in one God, why does that offen so many Muslims? Just because I don't quote the same verses they do? Freedom of thought doesn't seem to be encouraged.
It is because what you certainly must believe as a Christian, but refuse to admit. You of course have freedom of thought but Christian belief regarding Jesus is directly contrary to the Qur'an and the very essence of Islam. You are free to think and believe as you do, but you are not free to be duplicitous in insisting you believe in One God alone without any father, mother, son, daughter or anything comparable to when you obviously do not as I illustrated above with the 128 words of the Nicene Creed ascribed to the man, Jesus.
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IAmZamzam
03-19-2013, 02:07 PM
Timothy, while I am the first to admit that, “Let us make man in our own image,” is open to any number of interpretations, you should also admit that in a Pentateuch in which the Deity is constantly appearing in person in a localized and humanoid form, and acting extremely human, it’s kind of hard for any outsider not to get the impression that a literal interpretation of the phrase is not at least a theoretical possibility. Remember that we believe this text has been corrupted.

“Muslims are afraid to as theological questions for fear of being criticized harshly.” I’m sorry, what exactly is it you think I’m afraid of asking?

I don’t know how this all became about The Trinity and all that while I was asleep but as long as we’re on the subject I’ve already got that covered.
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Naeema
03-19-2013, 05:48 PM
YAY! This got moved to comparative religion! For consistency, I'm going to use English names throughout this posting. There's been a lot going on and I'm going to jump on just a few pieces. My apologies if I got something wrong. It's been 15 years since I left University (and the convent) and I've only studied Islam in detail for about 18 months. I'm pulling on a lot of old coursework from memory.

Originally Posted by Timothy
What prevents me is what seems like 'form over function' is the systemic denial of my Abrahamic tradition. There are things that Jesus struggled with over the very legalistic religious people who were self righteous and had no regard for people, only law. "Let those who were without sin cast the first stone." If I say, I believe in one God, why does that offen so many Muslims? Just because I don't quote the same verses they do? Freedom of thought doesn't seem to be encouraged.
I have to write my revert story still, but for now I'll toss this out: I don't feel like embracing Islam caused me to turn my back on the Abrahamic wisdom and stories at all. If anything, I feel like I finally wholly understand and embrace the foundations of my childhood faith. For someone "of the book" exploring Islam, I think that the lives of the Prophets can be extremely interesting. You have heard many of the stories before, like the story of Adam (AS) and the story of Moses (AS). Just as the stories of the Prophets (AS) are slightly different from the Torah to the Bible, so are they different again in the Quran. For example, Surah Maryam contains the story of the birth of the Jesus (AS) from ayat 19-34.

With regard to the whole Trinitarian and Saints issue:
It may have been a while since you got hit with this, but remember that lots of people think Catholics, as Trinitarians, are not monotheist. The Communion of Saints (and especially their role as intercessors) is also rejected by lots of Christians. I know, Trinitarians do believe in one God. A Trinitarian God is, in the most simple words, a very complicated God (I believe ZamZam and I can agree on that part - nice blog post!). I also recall that the use of intercessors draws the following general logic: If you made it to Heaven, then you are wholly right with God; the prayers of the righteous are particularly effective; Ergo, use someone in Heaven to advocate on your behalf. As such, the use of Saints as intercessors isn't shirk or idolatry, it's more like working the system. I'm not saying you have to reject these pieces of doctrine and become Methodist or Muslim. I just wanted to add some explanatory information about these two more odd bits of Catholic doctrine.

The status of Christ:
Yes, the Nicene Creed is Christ-heavy. However, staking a whole religion on one creed (written and edited by men several times over the years) is just oversimplification - it's like saying all of Islam can be captured in the Shahada. Christians are very concerned with the life of Jesus (AS) and what he represents. However, from the Nicene Creed, the important distinction of Christ being begotten, not made, is consistent with the birth of Jesus (AS) to Maryam. In Islam, just as to Unitarian Christians, Jesus (AS) is a miracle of God and a prophet, but not part of the divine. This rejection of hypostasis doesn't negate his life and works. It puts him on par with other great prophets, like Adam, Abraham, David, and Moses (AS), each of whom was blessed by God with great gifts, miracles, and trials.

The true difference, to me, comes in when you think of the route to Heaven. In Christianity, extra Christum nulla salus (without Chist, no salvation). This is in contrast to the Torah and the Old Testament, in which different people were named by God to be a salvation to the people in the book. In Islam, we go back to the idea [reject the innovation?] that each person has the key to heaven in their own hands through faith and works (not sola fide). Surah Al Asr is one of my favorites. It translates (roughly) to:
By time; mankind is surely in loss; except for those who have believed, done righteous deeds, advised each other to truth, and advised each other to patience.

And Allah knows best.
Reply

Insaanah
03-19-2013, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Timothy
Freedom of thought doesn't seem to be encouraged.
That's odd, because my first word was going to be think, and open your heart and mind. In the Qur'an you will find parables to get people thinking, statements to encourage us to ponder and reflect. It is the religion for the thinking person. Have you ever read the Qur'an?

Would you agree that the concept of God in Islam as listed below is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and is actually befitting of the Majesty of God? It'll also give you an idea of where we're coming from:

  • There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, Cherisher, and Lord. No being, no object, nothing other than Him, is worthy of prayer/worship.
  • He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.
  • He is eternal and does not die.
  • He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.
  • There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, the Creator of the Universe.
  • He did not and does not, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.
  • He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, no intermediaries, and no denying of God's existence either.
  • There are no sharers or associates or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.


Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the greatest messengers of God, and the Messiah, born miraculously of the noble lady virgin Mary, peace be upon her. Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the most noble men to ever walk the face of the earth, but not divine in any way.

Out of the above, which would you have a problem with, and why? If you can accept the above, but it's the issue of salvation or atonement of sins, that can be addressed.

Regarding God being in the form of a man, Allah says that He does not compare in any way to any part of His creation, or anything else (112:4). The minute you say He dwells in a man or is a man, that being cannot be God because there is nothing like Him and He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

A god who lives as a baby, needs to be suckled and weaned, cries and is helpless, has to perform all bodily functions such as defaecating, being ill, in Islam all these things are incompatible with being God.

You may not have a problem with god emerging from the womb of a woman, crying, being helpless, having to defaecate, being killed, but it strikes me as being similar in some ways to the Hindu stories about god.

Even it's a belief you've been brought up with all your life, doesn't mean it's correct. It may be disturbing and uncomfortable to acknowledge that fact, but you owe it to yourself.

Christians believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God incarnate, as Hindus believe in human incarnations of god, (though they also believe in some animal incarnations too). Where I personally find Catholicism similar to Hinduism, is in the plethora of saints that one can pray to for various purposes. There are more than 10,000 Catholic saints that Catholics can pray to. Essentially, a human being like us decides that someone is righteous/pious, and when that person dies, designates the deceased a saint. This then gives people the license to pray to the deceased, even though the deceased does not even possess the capability to turn him/herself by 1 inch in his/her grave. This is no different than Hindus praying to their various deities. When you consider Catholicism along with Islam, you're essentially considering two opposites as far as the concept of God goes. Yet in Islam, we find we're following the true message of Christ (peace be upon him).

What you need to consider, and think about, and ponder over and reflect is which of those makes sense enough to be true and which is actually befitting of the Majesty of God.
Reply

IAmZamzam
03-19-2013, 07:59 PM
Freedom of thought not encouraged?? He apparently hasn't read The Qur'an. Does he not know how many times it says things like, "Will they not stop and reflect on such-and-such?" and, "The signs are there, if you'll only think about them," and, "They don't really know that, they're only conjecturing." Not to mention, "There is no compulsion in religion: truth has as such become distinct from error."
Reply

Futuwwa
03-19-2013, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Freedom of thought not encouraged?? He apparently hasn't read The Qur'an. Does he not know how many times it says things like, "Will they not stop and reflect on such-and-such?" and, "The signs are there, if you'll only think about them," and, "They don't really know that, they're only conjecturing." Not to mention, "There is no compulsion in religion: truth has as such become distinct from error."
He concluded that freedom of thought was not encouraged because MustafaMc would not tolerate him coming to a different conclusion than his regarding tawheed and trinity. If we want our talk of freedom of thought be more than just talk, we should accept the whole package, including the fact that some people might actually conclude differently than we. And not presume that they are either dishonest or stupid.

No small number of times have I, in effect, been told that I'm allowed to think for myself, but not come to different conclusions than what (supposedly) the scholars agree on. That I'm allowed to ask questions but must accept the validity of any answers given. Well, I'm not going to conform simply because someone says so. Actually, I don't think I ever have ;D
Reply

IAmZamzam
03-19-2013, 09:15 PM
No small number of times have I, in effect, been told that I'm allowed to think for myself, but not come to different conclusions than what (supposedly) the scholars agree on. That I'm allowed to ask questions but must accept the validity of any answers given. Well, I'm not going to conform simply because someone says so.
Oh I have been in that situation sooooooo many times. *high five* Honestly, if a majority of scholars agreed that the sky was brown, we'd be forced to redefine the color wheel, wouldn't we? But people must understand, that's universal. Human beings in general aren't allowed to disagree with the status quo, with tradition or with the intellectual majority, under any circumstances, ever--and if you ever do then you're either a ignorant greenhorn with no idea what's going on or a cocky little know-it-all for whom a little knowledge is a dangerous thing--take your pick. That's just the way of the world. Authoritarianism and the appeal to tradition is the enemy of all truth, liberty and reason. It's the biggest hurdle that every single prophet faced, time and again: "We follow the way our fathers did, now get out of town!"

Anyway nobody encourages freedom of thought more than I do so at the very least this guy should be careful how he phrases things. This is one of various reasons why writing manuals discourage passive voice constructions. They lead to sticky situations.
Reply

Timothy
03-20-2013, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Oh and I'm I'm love with a practicing Muslim woman. I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women.
U
both men and women have rights. men aren't protected from unbelieving women as women are so protected from unbelievers. a marriage with you could end up with the sister being forced to viloate her faith. if you love her and want to help protect her from the hellfire, become a Muslim. if not, leave the sister alone.

you most assuredly DO NOT believe in 1 God. as a Catholic, you are a trinitarian. whether you think that is 3 gods in 1, or 1 god in three, you still have 3. and prayer is worship, so you're "hail Mary's" add a 4th. if you truly want to be a monotheist, learn about Islam.

peace
My Muslim brother, I am indeed learning about Islam. But Since Allah created all of us, and we did not create Him, we all belong to Him, regardless of our origin. Therefore, if we love and believe, we are on the same team!! The devil wishes to destroy and separate us, and destroy our kinship, peace, and life. Lets not give into Satan lie and embrace the love Allah teaches us. Peace to you and you family.
Reply

YusufNoor
03-21-2013, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by Timothy
My Muslim brother, I am indeed learning about Islam. But Since Allah created all of us, and we did not create Him, we all belong to Him, regardless of our origin. Therefore, if we love and believe, we are on the same team!! The devil wishes to destroy and separate us, and destroy our kinship, peace, and life. Lets not give into Satan lie and embrace the love Allah teaches us. Peace to you and you family.
are you the OP? anyhow, my post is without emotion. i simply pointed out that 1)you have a misconception about nikkah; 2) if you don't revert, leave the sister alone 3) Catholics are not monotheists. i am a former Catholic. everything i posted is true and i have made the same comments to my mother, she wasn't upset. 4) i advised you to learn about Islam if you truly wanted to be a monotheist and 5) i wished you peace.


and yet you see shaytan and evil in there?

really?

any other splints in my eyes???

peace
Reply

Abu Loren
03-21-2013, 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by Timothy
My Muslim brother, I am indeed learning about Islam. But Since Allah created all of us, and we did not create Him, we all belong to Him, regardless of our origin. Therefore, if we love and believe, we are on the same team!! The devil wishes to destroy and separate us, and destroy our kinship, peace, and life. Lets not give into Satan lie and embrace the love Allah teaches us. Peace to you and you family.
Dear Timothy

You still don't understand? It is forbidden for a Muslim women to fall in love or marry a non Muslim man. If she marries you as you are (a Catholic) then she is committing a great sin.
Reply

Futuwwa
03-21-2013, 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
are you the OP? anyhow, my post is without emotion.
I suppose that if I state, without emotion and in a neutral matter-of-factual way, that you are a mushrik, you will not take offense? ^o)
Reply

YusufNoor
03-21-2013, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
I suppose that if I state, without emotion and in a neutral matter-of-factual way, that you are a mushrik, you will not take offense? ^o)
why should your opinion offend me? just because you state something that i disagree with? and calling a Muslim a disbeliever actually has the ramification of making that Muslim a disbeliever.

so in reality, you would be stating that it is you who disbelieves. that would bother me more than your opinion of me.

it is our obligation to deliver the message of Islamic monotheism, In Surah Yusuf, we hear Yusuf, as:

12:39 O [my] two companions of prison, are separate lords better or Allah , the One, the Prevailing?
12:40 You worship not besides Him except [mere] names you have named them, you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. Legislation is not but for Allah . He has commanded that you worship not except Him. That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.
Yusuf begins by discussing Tawheed. the OP claimed to be a monotheist, he isn't. the issue of Tawheed is more important that someone having feelings for a woman. i feel no obligation to "help him succeed" as if this is merely a dating site, but my obligation is to point out where he is in error in his statement.

dawah is stating the truth. it is odd that some Muslims are offended by the truth.

and Allahu Alam

ma salaama
Reply

Futuwwa
03-22-2013, 07:14 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
why should your opinion offend me? just because you state something that i disagree with? and calling a Muslim a disbeliever actually has the ramification of making that Muslim a disbeliever.

so in reality, you would be stating that it is you who disbelieves. that would bother me more than your opinion of me.
Well, at least you're consistent, I'd have to grant you that.

Originally Posted by YusufNoor
dawah is stating the truth. it is odd that some Muslims are offended by the truth.
Do you think stating the truth entitles you to be rude?
Reply

YusufNoor
03-22-2013, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Well, at least you're consistent, I'd have to grant you that.



Do you think stating the truth entitles you to be rude?
the brother is 58, i was direct with him. i see nothing rude at all in my statement.

HOWEVER, it DOES bother me that you think it was rude. and you are correct, we should not be rude.

i thought that treating him like a teenager would be rude. those of us that are older are much closer to our own personal qiyama, so wasting time seems a bit ridiculous. some of you obviously feel different. i'll mull this in my brain for a bit...
Reply

Timothy
03-22-2013, 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Well, at least you're consistent, I'd have to grant you that.



Do you think stating the truth entitles you to be rude?
No you are rude. You were rude and disrespectfully to your mother as well. If you can be rude to your mother you can be rude to Allah and everyone else. That doesn't make you a good Muslim just because you can mouth the words. You have to show it in your actions. I'm sure this is not the first time you were told this. You keep saying these things about yourself as you asked "about the slits in your eyes."
Reply

YusufNoor
03-22-2013, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Timothy
No you are rude. You were rude and disrespectfully to your mother as well. If you can be rude to your mother you can be rude to Allah and everyone else. That doesn't make you a good Muslim just because you can mouth the words. You have to show it in your actions. I'm sure this is not the first time you were told this. You keep saying these things about yourself as you asked "about the slits in your eyes."
i'm guessing that you meant that for me and not the poor brother that you quoted. i'm also, at this point, guessing that you have ulterior motives here.

IF you sincerely feel that i was being rude, i do apologize. as for my mother, well, it would be rude, and immoral, NOT to discuss Tawheed with her. in fact, it is the most important thing to discuss with her. her and i shall be dead soon, it will be too late then.

i notice you talk a lot about "free thinking", yet you don't want to talk about monotheism. let me know when you expand your definition of free thinking to include a discussion on true monotheism. if you are the least bit curious about it, i posed some questions for you to consider while you are busy "free thinking".

in the mean time, you have a pleasant day!

peace
Reply

Futuwwa
03-22-2013, 01:45 PM
Uh, what? ^o)
Reply

Pygoscelis
03-22-2013, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Authoritarianism and the appeal to tradition is the enemy of all truth, liberty and reason. It's the biggest hurdle that every single prophet faced, time and again: "We follow the way our fathers did, now get out of town!"
This is the most refreshing thing I have ever read on this board.

THUMBS WAY UP!
Reply

tearose
03-22-2013, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Deleted post
The way they see things doesn't change the rulings. There are some cases where there are legitimate differences of opinion. This isn't one of them.
Reply

glo
03-22-2013, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Timothy
I am a 58 year old man in the Washington DC area. Father of Irish descent and mother of Spanish descent. I grew up Catholic, socially liberal, went to Catholic schools, college educated, professional, ran my own business, married, divorced, adult children, taught religious sunday school for over 12 years, studied and read a lot of theology books and authors, and have been a good Christian for nearly 40 years. I've had enough of the hypocritical and intolerance of so-called good religious people. Oh and I'm I'm love with a practicing Muslim woman. I know the rules about that muslim men vs. muslim women, which i understand is one of those cultural Rules that give rights to men but not to women. The answers I've heard may apply to young families, but do not make sense to couples who are not raising children. Even the Catholic Church allows for interfaith marriages as long as the couple goes through education classes to be sure they have a solid understanding of the differences. Besides i only worship one God. That's it. It's in our Creed. One of the things I'm most impressed with is the reverence she has for her faith. It's very similar to my upbringing. I'm fascinated by the discussions I've read so far and want to talk to my Catholic and Muslim brothers and sisters here.
Welcome to the forum, Timothy.

You might find this article helpful.
And this support group.

Peace.
Reply

YusufNoor
03-22-2013, 03:12 PM
looks at Pygo's post...

bangs head against the wall

and again...

you never cease to amaze me, but this really takes the cake!

of course, as i've stated before, my opinion is that there is no such thing as an atheist; a really radical agnostic maybe...and THOSE you will find in every religion as well.

i'm sure that you realize that, in Islam, it is not acceptable for you 2 to date or marry. but i feel "tempted" to ask, "you don't think that the girl and her family are nutjobs simply by being Muslim?" wouldn't the idea of her worshiping or mostly-worshiping God repulse an (alleged) atheist?

or am i biased by what i see about (alleged) atheists in the media? the obviously believe in God, they just hate Him.

*start a thread*
*start a thread*
*start a thread*
:D
Reply

YusufNoor
03-22-2013, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Deleted post
my dear respected brother, it is not our forgiveness that the sister needs. only Allah's. we should advise and make dua for her, though maybe not in that order.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
"We follow the way our fathers did, now get out of town!"
that quote seems to isolate the problem. people only know what they are taught. perhaps this is why we ask "ihdinas siratul mustaqeen" in al Fatihah; guide US to the straight way.

Mufti Menk has a great quote, "do not think you are better that the drunk Muslim just outside the Masjid. even if you pray in the 1st row everyday, he may have 1 good deed that surpasses all of yours. and the second that you begin to think that you are better than him, you have fallen into shaytan's trap"

i'm not accusing you, btw, i just see the value in what the Mufti says. i am also shocked by what some Muslims write here, but you can see that what i write also shocks them.

it is never the person we should doubt, just what they were taught. we hate the sin and not the sinner. once a person declares their Islam, they are to be considered a believer. that despite what you may see "born Muslims" write in another thread.

we are to make excuses for our brother, you know, unless they are reverts! ^o) j/k (mostly):embarrass

unless a "born Muslim" has also reverted to Islam, they may write some pretty goofy stuff!

so, in the end, i recommend that you take pity on them and make dua for them and yourself, and me too!

and a great dua is, "ihdinas siratul mustaqeen"!

may Alla guide us all to the straight way!

and Allahu Alam

ma salaama
Reply

IAmZamzam
03-22-2013, 04:12 PM
I happen to know a thing or two about how we're supposed to treat our brothers in the faith, Abu. I've reported your post.

"Remember when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel that 'You...speak kindly to people'...Then you turned away." (Qur'an 2:83, Khalidi) Are you going to turn away from Allah's command as well?
Reply

Timothy
03-22-2013, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I happen to know a thing or two about how we're supposed to treat our brothers in the faith, Abu. I've reported your post.

"Remember when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel that 'You...speak kindly to people'...Then you turned away." (Qur'an 2:83, Khalidi) Are you going to turn away from Allah's command as well?
Thank you. As Christians, we are suppose to "love one another, as God has loved us."
I did want to say something to dispel any misperceptions about Catholic official position: the Catholic Church holds Muslims a "first place ... profess to hold the faith of Abraham..."

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
Reply

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