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LauraS
03-19-2013, 07:26 PM
I don't mean this in a argumentative or offensive way, but don't you find it ironic that men are basically in charge of the world, throughout history have been responsible for war, genocide, rape, murder, countless deaths through domestic abuse and yet more women will be going to hell essentially because they aren't grateful enough to men?

No offence to the many perfectly lovely men out there either!
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sister herb
03-19-2013, 07:30 PM
Peace with you

How do we know who will be going to the hell and who doesn´t as only Allah knows it?

^o)
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Alpha Dude
03-19-2013, 07:39 PM
You've listed a few sins that are more likely to be associated with men than women (or so people would assume) and on the basis of that concluded that its unfair or ironic that women will be sent to hell due to their ungratefulness to these very same sinful men.

That may have sounded clever in your mind but from what I understand and know, the hadith which speaks of ungrateful women doesn't speak of them being ungrateful to men in general but rather to their husbands.

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't think the vast majority of women are married to men responsible for: war, genocide, rape, murder or domestic violence.

Even if a small percentage of women are unfortunate enough to be married to such men, by and large, the majority of husbands won't fall into any of those categories. So, I think your topic is a moot one. :)
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Urban Turban
03-19-2013, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
I don't mean this in a argumentative or offensive way, but don't you find it ironic that men are basically in charge of the world, throughout history have been responsible for war, genocide, rape, murder, countless deaths through domestic abuse and yet more women will be going to hell essentially because they aren't grateful enough to men?

No offence to the many perfectly lovely men out there either!
Inna Lillahi Wa Inna Ilayhi Wa Ra'jioon.

I see an ulterior purpose in the post above to make Muslims [and esp. Muslim women] look at Islam negatively.

Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala created us, sustains us et al - He creates the rules and does what He wants, the way He wants.

This is the only forum where I come across many non-Muslim posters ^o)
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LauraS
03-19-2013, 07:50 PM
.
Originally Posted by sister harb
Peace with you

How do we know who will be going to the hell and who doesn´t as only Allah knows it?

^o)
I've read that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saw a vision a hell and there were more women there than men.

Alpha Dude-I know what you say is true- about it being women ungrateful to their husbands, and I'm obviously not saying all men are bad husbands. But with all the terrible crimes committed over the centuries by men (and many horrible crimes against women) I find it ironic that there will be more women in hell because they aren't grateful.

I was just musing, it probably isn't written in the best way,but surely someone must sort of get what I mean lol.
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M.I.A.
03-19-2013, 07:50 PM
having a good women behind you can change the world.

unfortunately i dont know who they are sub-servant to most of the time.

allah swt knows best i guess.


..its delusional to think women play any lesser role in the world.

there deeds and actions are just as important as those of men.
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IAmZamzam
03-19-2013, 07:51 PM
You know what's really ironic? How the most offensive statements in the world tend to be the ones with the "no offense" disclaimer attached.

There are three levels to those ahadith about the majority of those in hell being women. Some of the versions just state the idea of the majority being women as a fact and end immediately. Others embellish it with the reason being offered as ingratitude. A couple go beyond even that and make a sermon out of it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here: there is a clear path of embellishment being taken with what started off as a very simple statement. The real reason appears to be the same as that implied a little later on in Sahih Muslim 40:6840.

Two are the types amongst the denizens of hell, the one possessing whips like the tail of an ox and they flog people with their help. (The second one) the women who would be naked in spite of their being dressed, who are seduced (to wrong paths) and seduce others with their hair high like humps. These women would not get into Paradise and they would not perceive the odour of Paradise, although its fragrance can be perceived from such and such distance (from great distance).

Perhaps that kind of attire and promiscuity wasn’t so common back then, when the population of the world wasn’t as high as it is now, but these days?

A noticeable majority can be as little as three out of every five. That is far from the realm of possible coincidence.

As I understand it more women embrace Islam in modern times than men do. But you’ll never take it from me. Perhaps some of the sisters here should talk to you.
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LauraS
03-19-2013, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Urban Turban
I see an ulterior purpose in the post above to make Muslims [and esp. Muslim women] tired of Islam.
Not at all! I think it would take more than me and this one post to make Muslims question their faith.
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Qurratul Ayn
03-19-2013, 07:55 PM
Peace upon you all

Originally Posted by Urban Turban
This is the only forum where I come across many non-Muslim posters ^o)
:alhamd:

I don't know what that emoticon implies but to me the fact that we have many Non-Muslim members is a good thing. They ask, answers are provided in a civil, polite manner, they understand/ask more/debate, answered again/debated/given assurance.Same goes for Muslim Brothers & Sisters too.

Plus it shows, this forum is open to EVERYONE willing to learn and participate.

:alhamd: indeed


P.S. Apologies for being off-topic
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Urban Turban
03-19-2013, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Not at all! I think it would take more than me and this one post to make Muslims question their faith.
Clever.. yet very little.
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Alpha Dude
03-19-2013, 08:00 PM
But with all the terrible crimes committed over the centuries by men (and many horrible crimes against women) I find it ironic that there will be more women in hell because they aren't grateful.
In that case, you're just assuming that women commit less sin than men or less 'serious' sin than men.

I could just as easily say it's women who are more likely to backbite, feel jealous, seduce men, cast evil eye and influence men around them into committing really serious sins like murder, war, genocide (the Lady Macbeths of the world). So, the doer might be the man, but the influencer and originator can easily be the woman.

However, there's no point: Just know, that on the day of judgement, there will be total justice. Allah is not unjust. If there will be more women in hell than men, then that will have been as a result of their own doing and not due to any injustice on the part of Allah.
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LauraS
03-19-2013, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Urban Turban
Clever.. yet very little.
^o) I'm confused
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Urban Turban
03-19-2013, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Qurratul Ayn
Peace upon you all

:alhamd:

I don't know what that emoticon implies but to me the fact that we have many Non-Muslim members is a good thing. They ask, answers are provided in a civil, polite manner, they understand/ask more/debate, answered again/debated/given assurance.Same goes for Muslim Brothers & Sisters too.

Plus it shows, this forum is open to EVERYONE willing to learn and participate.

:alhamd: indeed
Across many forums I know and from what I've seen...I think we are too trusting. (There are always exceptions of course)
We lost Spain because of this nature of ours.
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Qurratul Ayn
03-19-2013, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
Just know, that on the day of judgement, there will be total justice. Allah is not unjust. If there will be more women in hell than men, then that will have been as a result of their own doing and not due to any injustice on the part of Allah.
My dear LauraS this is the point says it all, from Brother Alpha Dude.
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Student1996
03-19-2013, 08:03 PM
I agree with Alpha Dude. But I think that muslim women are good because they are modest and I also think that the reason why alot of men cause war, exetra is because of greed. Greedy men want Alot of women to sex and alot of money so they can buy stuff for them self. Most Rulers in the middle east are like that and that and alot of the oil shieks dont do alot of charity but they buy cars and gold jewlery to flaunt their wealth. If they follow sunnah they should be better musims and help paople. I doubt most of them even fast.
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sister herb
03-19-2013, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Qurratul Ayn
I don't know what that emoticon implies but to me the fact that we have many Non-Muslim members is a good thing. They ask, answers are provided in a civil, polite manner, they understand/ask more/debate, answered again/debated/given assurance.
opic
And some of them after all asking etc. will find the only right path - Islam.

:D
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Qurratul Ayn
03-19-2013, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Urban Turban
We lost Spain because of this nature of ours.
Yes, but who will be victorious before the Day of Judgement???

The Muslims

Many Non-Muslim members here are asking questions to what they don't understand or know little of. All we can do is refer sources, provide information from reliable sources and aid them in any way that we can.

And only :Allah::swt: knows every single person's intentions and thoughts, so let's be trusting.

Who will be better off if these questions have a negative intent behind them (which I don't think is the case) and they've failed to gain the negative purpose they've set out to accomplish?

We will be as we've tried to help and provide information, there is no harm in answering questions or providing help.

Have a little faith

Ma Salama
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Qurratul Ayn
03-19-2013, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
And some of them after all asking etc. will find the only right path - Islam.
:ia:

Hi 5 to that, my Sister!


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tearose
03-19-2013, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what's going on here: there is a clear path of embellishment being taken with what started off as a very simple statement.
What do you mean?
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Urban Turban
03-19-2013, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Student1996
I agree with Alpha Dude. But I think that muslim women are good because they are modest and I also think that the reason why alot of men cause war, exetra is because of greed. Greedy men want Alot of women to sex and alot of money so they can buy stuff for them self. Most Rulers in the middle east are like that and that and alot of the oil shieks dont do alot of charity but they buy cars and gold jewlery to flaunt their wealth. If they follow sunnah they should be better musims and help paople. I doubt most of them even fast.
Bro, most rulers in the middle east lack the extensive PR machinery that the millionaires / billionaires in the west have got, if you think that guys in the west do charity for the sake of charity, then you are wrong, its just a front for christian missionaries, plus you should research the practice of pedophilia that gets on in south west Asia.

Just the tip of the iceberg.

Even if the oil sheikhs do get in to sleaze, its because there is still some semblance of modesty in their countries while in the west, women are commodities and they don't know it.
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Dagless
03-19-2013, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
I've read that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saw a vision a hell and there were more women there than men.
Random thought: It might also be that there are more women than men and therefore more women in hell.
Anyway, I liked your question.
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M.I.A.
03-19-2013, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Qurratul Ayn

Yes, but who will be victorious before the Day of Judgment???

The Muslims

Many Non-Muslim members here are asking questions to what they don't understand or know little of. All we can do is refer sources, provide information from reliable sources and aid them in any way that we can.

And only :Allah::swt: knows every single person's intentions and thoughts, so let's be trusting.

Who will be better off if these questions have a negative intent behind them (which I don't think is the case) and they've failed to gain the negative purpose they've set out to accomplish?

We will be as we've tried to help and provide information, there is no harm in answering questions or providing help.

Have a little faith

Ma Salama


agreed, the world remains fixed until you break it.

maybe why faith is more important than knowledge.
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Urban Turban
03-19-2013, 08:24 PM
Many a time limited human sense doesn't make sense.

It makes sense to submit our sense to Allah and His Prophet [pbuh]
If any Muslim here has felt ironic even a little bit at what the Final Prophet (peace be upon him) has said....then I strongly suggest that person to seek forgiveness.
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Urban Turban
03-19-2013, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Qurratul Ayn

Yes, but who will be victorious before the Day of Judgment???

The Muslims

Many Non-Muslim members here are asking questions to what they don't understand or know little of. All we can do is refer sources, provide information from reliable sources and aid them in any way that we can.

And only :Allah::swt: knows every single person's intentions and thoughts, so let's be trusting.

Who will be better off if these questions have a negative intent behind them (which I don't think is the case) and they've failed to gain the negative purpose they've set out to accomplish?

We will be as we've tried to help and provide information, there is no harm in answering questions or providing help.

Have a little faith

Ma Salama
I'd do that in private, I have done it before, Alhamdulillah, but I'd never give them a public platform, the reason being there are many Muslim youngsters who log on here. I'm just worried about my own people.

We lost Muslims too, in Spain, to Christianity. You know.
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IAmZamzam
03-19-2013, 08:57 PM
The number of stereotypes filling the thread is just piling up, isn't it?

I've never thought about that before. There are more women than men in the world overall, aren't there?

Violent actions, eh? You know who holds the all time world record for the highest number of people murdered by a single human being? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't a man.

Her name was Elizabeth Bathory, and she killed (count 'em) six-hundred-and-twelve different people--so that she could bathe in their blood.

How many people have I killed?

Maybe, just maybe, we should start thinking in terms of individuals.

Maybe, just maybe, you should start thinking of your own future. We're alive for only a few decades and dead for a very, very long time afterward, aren't we?
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Berries'forest
03-19-2013, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
don't you find it ironic that men are basically in charge of the world, throughout history have been responsible for war, genocide, rape, murder, countless deaths through domestic abuse
Hi, actually no it's not ironic. Truth is women can be just as ruthless criminals as men can. Gender politics doesn't really improve anything. It just creates a shapeshifting ground battle for people who are interested in discussing this matter. Women particpate in war too, they also indulge in other things including domestic abuse. We cannot hold accountable everyone who belongs to acertain group as guilty merely because they happen to to be of the same gender. Everyone will be held for their individual actions and not collective actions done by other people. God is just. When we focus on these kind of disputed Hadeeths it distracts our attention from what we have been commanded to obey and that is worshipping God sincerely. We must not get preoccupied with these kinds of subjects they emotionally provoke us to doubt and question our faith; keep in mind God is always just and if we believe that then we must only worry on our part of the equation i.e. what we do more than worrying about the way He will judge in the end.
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Student1996
03-19-2013, 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by Urban Turban
Bro, most rulers in the middle east lack the extensive PR machinery that the millionaires / billionaires in the west have got, if you think that guys in the west do charity for the sake of charity, then you are wrong, its just a front for christian missionaries, plus you should research the practice of pedophilia that gets on in south west Asia.

Just the tip of the iceberg.

Even if the oil sheikhs do get in to sleaze, its because there is still some semblance of modesty in their countries while in the west, women are commodities and they don't know it.
Western rich people can be worse I know, because corporations and bankers Benefit off of the poor. That is why people protest occupy wall street because they are greed. And that is why i want to move to UK or something, but I'm grateful for some freedoms that some countries don't have.
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Cabdullahi
03-20-2013, 05:54 AM
I read the title of this thread and then looked at the name of the author, it could've only been that person.
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Tyrion
03-20-2013, 06:42 AM
Originally Posted by Urban Turban
This is the only forum where I come across many non-Muslim posters
Are you implying that there's something wrong with that? We've got many of non Muslim members who bring a lot to discussions, and that's more than you can say about some of our Muslim regulars. LauraS in particular hasn't really ever been inappropriate in her time here, from what I can remember anyway.
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Sothis Girl
03-20-2013, 01:59 PM
Hello sister LAuraS,

In Hadith, women are majority dweller or hell AND paradise BOTH.

(The true irony is, most scholars would emphasize how they're majority dwellers of hell and not seeing the other side. ^o))

You can read further here :
http://muslimahdirections.wordpress....ittling-women/
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IAmZamzam
03-20-2013, 02:50 PM
I had forgotten all about that exegesis, Ariadne. Thank you for that.
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Amat Allah
03-20-2013, 02:54 PM
That hadith is beautiful cause it has amazing reminders which are directed for us females (cause those misdeeds mentioned in the hadith conected to us more than men); He The Prophet Muhammad(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has been sent to teach us the religion of God which commanding us of the good deeds, good manners and to leave sins which make us fall easily in satan's web then with him to hellfire.....

sweet sister; if you would walk in some road which is so dangerous and may lose your life at it's end; wouldn't you want those who know that road very well to warn ya? or is it allright for them to stand a side watching ya going to your death while they are saying nothing? (Would not it be a mean and brutal action of them?)

And this is what The Prophet Muhammad The Master of all Creatures (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was trying to do; reminding us to save us from such end sweetie

This Is not anyone who taught us this dear and precious hadith that was a Prophet of God who took all what he taught us from God:

"By the star when it goes down, (or vanishes). (1)Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred. (2)Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. (3)It is only an Inspiration that is inspired. (4) " Surat Annajm

"Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I don't tell you that with me are the treasures of Allah, nor (that) I know the unseen; nor I tell you that I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me by inspiration." Say: "Are the blind and the one who sees equal? will you not then take thought?"(50) Surat Al An'aam

And those women who heard him; did they object and say : No, this is not fair....of course not; one of them asked why; to know the reasons and how to avoid that manifest loss and they right away have given what they had in charity.do you know why? cause those women (May Allah Be pleased with them) have understood his message (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and this is how people of understanding and live hearts act right after hearing any commandment, reminder and advice from their God through His prophets and messengers (peace and blessings of Allah be uopn them all); they act upon them and put them into effect; wasting not time with nonsense which will only throw us in hellfire; tasting it's severe torments. O Allah I seek refuge with You Most Merciful from hellfire for me and my Ummah Ameeen

"It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error. (36)" Surat Al Ah'zaab

May Allah lead your way to the path of the endless true happiness Ameeen

Humbly and with all respect, your sister:

Amat Allah.
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Ramadan90
03-20-2013, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Alpha Dude
In that case, you're just assuming that women commit less sin than men or less 'serious' sin than men.

I could just as easily say it's women who are more likely to backbite, feel jealous, seduce men, cast evil eye and influence men around them into committing really serious sins like murder, war, genocide (the Lady Macbeths of the world). So, the doer might be the man, but the influencer and originator can easily be the woman.

However, there's no point: Just know, that on the day of judgement, there will be total justice. Allah is not unjust. If there will be more women in hell than men, then that will have been as a result of their own doing and not due to any injustice on the part of Allah.
/end thread
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'Abd-al Latif
03-20-2013, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
I don't mean this in a argumentative or offensive way, but don't you find it ironic that men are basically in charge of the world, throughout history have been responsible for war, genocide, rape, murder, countless deaths through domestic abuse and yet more women will be going to hell essentially because they aren't grateful enough to men?

No offence to the many perfectly lovely men out there either!
Where's the irony? The real irony is in feminism giving women the promise of liberation from a man's oppression, yet in its implementation women become iniquitous in their attitudes, understanding and approach.

The gratitude isn't meant to be for every single man, it's specifically referring to a woman's attitude and behaviour towards her husband. It's because of the ingratitude towards their husbands that more women will be in hell fire than men.

The husband being oppressive and abusive is a separate issue as the act of gratitude is a general command.
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GuestFellow
03-20-2013, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
I don't mean this in a argumentative or offensive way, but don't you find it ironic that men are basically in charge of the world, throughout history have been responsible for war, genocide, rape, murder, countless deaths through domestic abuse and yet more women will be going to hell essentially because they aren't grateful enough to men?

No offence to the many perfectly lovely men out there either!
Both genders are capable of doing terrible things. =) Read about Condoleeza Rice and Meyra Wurmser.
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LauraS
03-20-2013, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Qurratul Ayn

My dear LauraS this is the point says it all, from Brother Alpha Dude.
It's not so easy for a non-Muslim to just accept everything will be made right on judgement day. :hmm: But thank you for polite replies. :)

Originally Posted by Cabdullahi
I read the title of this thread and then looked at the name of the author, it could've only been that person.
lol this made made me laugh, yes that's me...always finding things ironic? :muddlehea



Don't get me wrong Guestfellow I know there are/have been some evil women out there and I know all about the woman who killed people to bathe in their blood. It's just for the majority of time men have been in control of the world and the women in it and have often abused that control. I was just musing and when I first read this I couldn't help thinking, well it's pretty much a male dominated religion, of course they'll say more women were seen in hell than men. I know in Islam it's said women should be treated kindly but I also saw another quote that was something about no human should have to prostrate before another but if they were to a woman should prostrate before her husband because God has given him so many rights.

It just feels that, not just in Islam- this can include Christianity,- it says women should be cherished but there's another side that seems to portray them as evil and weak.
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GuestFellow
03-20-2013, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
lol this made made me laugh, yes that's me...always finding things ironic? :muddlehea
Avoid responding to posts like...waaaaah this person no agree with me! WAAAAAAAH THIS PERSON IS TROLL! These people cannot engage in an intellectual discussion! *ruffles feathers*

Don't get me wrong Guestfellow I know there are/have been some evil women out there and I know all about the woman who killed people to bathe in their blood. It's just for the majority of time men have been in control of the world and the women in it and have often abused that control. I was just musing and when I first read this I couldn't help thinking, well it's pretty much a male dominated religion, of course they'll say more women were seen in hell than men. I know in Islam it's said women should be treated kindly but I also saw another quote that was something about no human should have to prostrate before another but if they were to a woman should prostrate before her husband because God has given him so many rights.

It just feels that, not just in Islam- this can include Christianity,- it says women should be cherished but there's another side that seems to portray them as evil and weak.
What do you mean by a male dominated religion?

Majority of the time? I doubt it. There have been female rulers in the past.
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IAmZamzam
03-20-2013, 11:39 PM
We've given you plenty of good answers already and you seem to be ignoring them.

"It's not so easy"...well, I imagine not. Let's cut to the chase: what would make it easy for you to trust in Allah? Is there any theoretical scenario in which you could see yourself agreeing with Islam? Don't tell me it's primarily about gender issues. There must be something bigger.
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Karl
03-21-2013, 11:43 PM
"The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world" These evil men you speak of are raised by their mothers. Evil begets evil.
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