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theplains
03-20-2013, 10:54 PM
"We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily
We shall make thee turn (in prayer) toward a qiblah which is dear to thee. So turn thy face
toward the Inviolable Place of Worship, and ye (O Muslims), wheresoever ye may be, turn your
faces (when ye pray) toward it. Lo! Those who have received the Scripture know that (this
revelation) is the Truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do. And even
if thou broughtest unto those who have received the Scripture all kinds of portents, they
would not follow thy qiblah, nor canst thou be a follower of their qiblah; nor are some of them
followers of the qiblah of others. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge
which hath come unto thee, then surely wert thou of the evil-doers".

Do different nations have their own qiblah?

Peace,
Jim
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Abu Loren
03-21-2013, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by theplains
Do different nations have their own qiblah?
I was intending to ignore you but I felt sorry for you.....

The qibla is the Ka'ba in Mecca. Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) used to face Jerusalem when he began his prophethoood, then Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala ordered him to face the Ka'aba when praying.

All Muslims no matter wherever they are in the world are to face Mecca and pray. So when you look at it, from all points of the globe, people are facing one direction. Imagine a circle and the prople around it looking at the centre. Unbelievable!
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Ahmad H
03-21-2013, 08:01 PM
In response to your question, you are asking is different nations have their own Qiblah. Very interesting.

Had you read further than these verses you quoted you would have found your answer.

2:148 For every nation there is a direction to which they face (in their prayers). So hasten towards all that is good. Wheresoever you may be, Allah will bring you together (on the Day of Resurrection). Truly, Allah is Able to do all things.
(Mohsin Khan Translation)

The commentaries on this verse say that each nation has their own Qiblah to which they face in prayer. This could also mean that every Prophet faced toward the direction which God had directed them to face for prayer.

Peace be with you.
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theplains
03-22-2013, 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
In response to your question, you are asking is different nations have their own Qiblah. Very interesting.

Had you read further than these verses you quoted you would have found your answer.

2:148 For every nation there is a direction to which they face (in their prayers). So hasten towards all that is good. Wheresoever you may be, Allah will bring you together (on the Day of Resurrection). Truly, Allah is Able to do all things.
(Mohsin Khan Translation)

The commentaries on this verse say that each nation has their own Qiblah to which they face in prayer. This could also mean that every Prophet faced toward the direction which God had directed them to face for prayer.

Peace be with you.
Thank you.

As a Christian, we do not have a direction for prayer when we pray to God. We can face
any direction.

I saw someone mention Muhammad originally prayed toward Jerusalem. According to the
Quran or Hadiths, why would he do this when Abraham and Ishmael supposedly built the
Kaaba in Mecca? Wasn't this the qiblah for Ishmael and his people?

Peace,
Jim
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Ahmad H
03-22-2013, 08:50 PM
The Divine command was that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) first face the Temple at Jerusalem. He loved to face the Ka'bah, so when he was in Mecca he would try to face both the Ka'bah and the Temple of Jerusalem while praying. This became difficult in Medina because of his relative location to the Ka'ba and the Temple at Jerusalem. So he waited to a Divine command to come from Allah so that he would face the direction he loved the most - which was the Ka'bah.

Your question is directed to ask why the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) would himself face the Temple at Jerusalem rather than the Ka'bah at first, but this is not the case. He only followed Divine orders to face the Temple at Jerusalem. He loved to face the Ka'bah because it is as the verse 2:144 says, "surely, then, will We make thee turn to the Qiblah which thou likest." in his heart he loved to face the Ka'bah as his Qibla (direction for prayer), but he had to wait on Allah to allow him to face it. Allah granted him his desire.

Furthermore, you must be wondering as to why Allah would command things this way. There are two reasons which i know of. One is that the Holy Prophet (saw) was ordered to follow the Prophets of God ["So follow thou their guidance" (6:90)]. Islam was being revealed over time to the Holy Prophet (saw), so what happened was at first the Muslims followed the Jewish law because that was the Prophethood which was existent at the time before the revelations of Islam abrogated the revelations of Moses (as) and Jesus (as). He had come to bring the perfect law which the Jews did not have - otherwise, he had to follow their guidance until the revelations of the Qur'an were completed and abrogated the Jewish law. Thus, facing the Temple at Jerusalem was one of these things.

Two, the simple reason for his facing the Temple at Jerusalem was because he was prophesied in the Jewish texts to first face the Temple at Jerusalem and then he would change the direction of his prayer facing somewhere else - namely, the Ka'bah. This is what the Qur'an is referring to when it says that "And they to whom the Book has been given know that this is the truth from their Lord..." (2:144) and in verse 2:146 it says, "Those to whom We have given the Book recognize it even as they recognize their sons, but surely some of them conceal the truth knowingly." This meant that the Jews were already waiting for a Prophet to come in Arabia, which they had recognized all the signs for and had expected to come. Yet, when this Prophet appeared and he came with a sign that some of them knew would happen to be one of the proofs of his truthfulness from their own texts, they rejected it and even concealed this truth so as to hide it and keep him from being followed as he should be. The Jews did not want to accept him as a Prophet.

There are many verses in the Qur'an to this effect. Not all the Jews thought this way, which is why the verse said "some of them" in reference to their hiding this prophecy. Some of them know it so well that they knew about this, and yet did not accept the sign.

If you want to read up on these facts on this verse and the few verses which come after it, go to www.altafsir.com and read up Al Jalalayn's and Ibn Abbas's tafsir on these verses (commentaries). They explain these facts. As for abrogation, Muslims accept that the Islamic law abrogated Jewish law which was in place before the Islamic law. The other explanations are in the tafsir website.


Peace be with you.
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theplains
03-24-2013, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
The Divine command was that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) first face the Temple at Jerusalem.
It doesn't appear this is what sura 2:144 is saying. "We have seen the turning of thy face to
heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer)
toward a qiblah which is dear to thee".

This says he was facing heaven and not to the Temple in Jerusalem.

He loved to face the Ka'bah ... he waited to a Divine command to come from Allah so that
he would face the direction he loved the most - which was the Ka'bah".
Looking at 2:144, I see the terms *liked* and *pleased* in regards to the Kabah (depending on
the translation one uses). But where do you see that he *loved* to face Jerusalem and that he
*loved* to face the Kabah more?

Furthermore, you must be wondering as to why Allah would command things this way.
There are two reasons which i know of. One is that the Holy Prophet (saw) was ordered to
follow the Prophets of God ["So follow thou their guidance" (6:90)]
According to the Quran and Hadiths, where did Ishmael and his desendants pray to? Was
this based on their like or love?

He had come to bring the perfect law which the Jews did not have.
What is the perfect law?

the simple reason for his facing the Temple at Jerusalem was because he was prophesied in the Jewish texts to first face the Temple at Jerusalem
Would you show me this in the Torah, Quran, or the Hadiths.

This meant that the Jews were already waiting for a Prophet to come in Arabia
I know that most Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and others accepted him. They
would go on and become the Christians (the followers of Christ). But why do you
think the Jews (which are very stringent on matters of lineage), would ever accept a
non-Jewish prophet?

Peace,
Jim
Reply

Abu Loren
03-24-2013, 07:52 PM
The tasfir of 2:143 may give the answer you need.

Thus, in the same way that We guided you to it, We appointed you, O community of Muhammad (s), a midmost community, excellent and upright, that you might be witnesses to the people, on the Day of Resurrection, that their messengers delivered [the Message] to them; and that the Messenger might be a witness to you, that he delivered [the Message] to you, and We did not appoint, make, the direction, for you now, the direction, you were facing, that is the Ka‘ba: the Prophet (s) used to face it in prayer, but when he emigrated he was commanded to face the Holy House [of Jerusalem], in order to win the hearts of the Jews. He prayed in this direction for sixteen or seventeen months before he changed direction; except that We might know, [that it become] manifest knowledge, who followed the Messenger, and believed in him, from him who turned on his heels, and returned to unbelief doubting the religion and thinking that the Prophet (s) was confused about this issue; and a number of them apostatised as a result of this— though it, the change of direction, were (wa-in, ‘though’, is softened, and its noun apocopated, originally being: wa-innahā) a grave thing, troublesome for people, save for those, of them, whom God has guided; but God would never cause your faith, that is, your prayers towards the Holy House [of Jerusalem], to be wasted, but He will reward you for them (the reason that this [verse] was revealed was that some had asked about the status of those that had died before the change of direction [of prayer]); truly, God is Gentle with, believing, people, Merciful, when He does not let their deeds go to waste (al-ra’fa means ‘intensity of mercy’, and is mentioned first to allow for the end rhyme of the verse [with the preceding one]).
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tearose
03-24-2013, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
But why do you
think the Jews (which are very stringent on matters of lineage), would ever accept a
non-Jewish prophet?
Many of them didn't. Although they were expecting a prophet, and they recognized that Muhammad :saws: was that Prophet, some of them were too proud to accept him because he was Arab and they were expecting him to be Jewish. For example in this incident reported by Ibn Ishaq:

Abdullah b. Abu Bakr b. Muhammad b. Amr b. Hazm told me that he was told that Safiya d. Huyayy b. Akhtab said 'I was the favorite child of my father and my uncle Abu Yasir. When I was present they took no notice of their other children. When the apostle was staying in Quba with the B. Amr b. Auf tribe, the two went to see him before daybreak and did not return until after nightfall, weary, worn out, drooping and feeble. I went up to them in childish pleasure as I always did and they were so sunk in gloom that they took no notice of me. I heard my uncle say to my father, “Is he ‘he’? Do you recognize him, and can you be sure?”
“Yes!”
“And what do you feel about him?”
"By God I shall be his enemy as long as I live!" (Ibn Ishaq, "The Life of Prophet Muhammad" p.241-242, Translation by A. Guillaume)

'he' meaning the prophet they were expecting. However, some Jews did become Muslim.


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tearose
03-24-2013, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
According to the
Quran or Hadiths, why would he do this
The answer is right there in the verse before the one you just quoted:

2 143 1 -

Sahih International
And thus we have made you a just community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you. And We did not make the qiblah which you used to face except that We might make evident who would follow the Messenger from who would turn back on his heels. And indeed, it is difficult except for those whom Allah has guided. And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith. Indeed Allah is, to the people, Kind and Merciful.



It was a command and a test from Allah subhanahu wa taala. And you also see in the translation of the same verse: 'And never would Allah have caused you to lose your faith.' In the tafsir that I have heard, this is interpreted as a refutation to those who were saying that prayers made either before or after the qibla change would be invalid. I believe that is very similar to the tafsir posted by brother Abu Loren above.
wa Allahu a3lam.

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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by tearose
Many of them didn't. Although they were expecting a prophet, and they recognized that Muhammad :saws: was that Prophet, some of them were too proud to accept him because he was Arab and they were expecting him to be Jewish. For example in this incident reported by Ibn Ishaq:

Abdullah b. Abu Bakr b. Muhammad b. Amr b. Hazm told me that he was told that Safiya d. Huyayy b. Akhtab said 'I was the favorite child of my father and my uncle Abu Yasir. When I was present they took no notice of their other children. When the apostle was staying in Quba with the B. Amr b. Auf tribe, the two went to see him before daybreak and did not return until after nightfall, weary, worn out, drooping and feeble. I went up to them in childish pleasure as I always did and they were so sunk in gloom that they took no notice of me. I heard my uncle say to my father, “Is he ‘he’? Do you recognize him, and can you be sure?”
“Yes!”
“And what do you feel about him?”
"By God I shall be his enemy as long as I live!" (Ibn Ishaq, "The Life of Prophet Muhammad" p.241-242, Translation by A. Guillaume)

'he' meaning the prophet they were expecting. However, some Jews did become Muslim.

Further to the above by sis tearose, the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was given tests or rather questions that only the Jewish Rabbi's knew the answer to. The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) answered these through revelation. For example, most verses that begin with "Say" or "Qul" in arabic are answers to questions posed by either the Jews or the leaders of the Quraish. There are also verses that begin with "They ask you about ...." which are also answers to questions that were asked of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).
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Ahmad H
03-25-2013, 03:47 AM
Originally Posted by theplains
It doesn't appear this is what sura 2:144 is saying. "We have seen the turning of thy face to
heaven (for guidance, O Muhammad). And now verily We shall make thee turn (in prayer)
toward a qiblah which is dear to thee".

This says he was facing heaven and not to the Temple in Jerusalem.


Looking at 2:144, I see the terms *liked* and *pleased* in regards to the Kabah (depending on
the translation one uses). But where do you see that he *loved* to face Jerusalem and that he
*loved* to face the Kabah more?


According to the Quran and Hadiths, where did Ishmael and his desendants pray to? Was
this based on their like or love?


What is the perfect law?


Would you show me this in the Torah, Quran, or the Hadiths.


I know that most Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and others accepted him. They
would go on and become the Christians (the followers of Christ). But why do you
think the Jews (which are very stringent on matters of lineage), would ever accept a
non-Jewish prophet?

Peace,
Jim
It is very obvious that not everything i said was based off of verse 2:144 only. I was explaining to you that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) was commanded to follow the previous Prophets of Allah. This was one reason for following the previous Qiblah.

Here is a passage about verse 2:144 from Asbab An-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi, which explains the context of revelation of this verse:
(We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven…) [2:144]. The Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, said once to Gabriel, peace be upon him: “I wish that Allah, exalted is He, directed me away from the qiblah of the Jews to a different qiblah' - he meant to say the Ka'bah because it was the qiblah of Abraham. Gabriel said to him: 'I am a slave like you; nothing is in my power. Do therefore request your Lord to direct you away from it toward the qiblah of Abraham'. Gabriel then rose in the sky while the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, kept looking at heaven in the hope that Gabriel would bring him the news of what he had requested. And so Allah revealed this verse”. Abu Mansur Muhammad ibn Muhammad al-Mansuri informed us> al-Hafiz 'Ali ibn 'Umar> 'Abd al-Wahhab ibn 'Isa> Abu Hisham al-Rifa'i> Abu Bakr ibn 'Iyash> Abu Ishaq> al-Bara' who said: “We prayed with Allah's Messenger, Allah bless him and give him peace, after his arrival to Medina for sixteen months toward Jerusalem. Then Allah knew the wish of His Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, and so He revealed (We have seen the turning of thy face to heaven…)”. This is narrated by Muslim from the report of Abu Bakr ibn Abi Shaybah from Abu'l-Ahwas. It was also narrated by Bukhari from the report of Abu Nu'aym from Zuhayr, and both Zuhayr and Abu'l-Ahwas reported this narration from Abu Ishaq.

So obviously, the Holy Prophet (saw) was commanded to pray towards Jerusalem before. He does not do anything except what Allah tells him to do. This is in the Qur'an:

53:2-3: Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
(Yusuf Ali Translation)

He only does what is commanded to him by Allah. Otherwise, he would not have faced Jerusalem.


And why would you say he was facing heaven and not Jerusalem? The above explanation of the verse makes this very clear. There are also Ahadith which prove this as well if you are still not convinced:

Narrated Al-Bara' (bin 'Azib): When the Prophet came to Medina, he stayed first with his grandfathers or maternal uncles from Ansar. He offered his prayers facing Baitul-Maqdis (Jerusalem) for sixteen or seventeen months, but he wished that he could pray facing the Ka'ba (at Mecca). The first prayer which he offered facing the Ka'ba was the 'Asr prayer in the company of some people. Then one of those who had offered that prayer with him came out and passed by some people in a mosque who were bowing during their prayers (facingJerusalem). He said addressing them, "By Allah, I testify that I have prayed with Allah's Apostle facing Mecca (Ka'ba).' Hearing that, those people changed their direction towards the Ka'ba immediately. Jews and the people of the scriptures used to be pleased to see the Prophet facing Jerusalem in prayers but when he changed his direction towards the Ka'ba, during the prayers, they disapproved of it. Al-Bara' added, "Before we changed our direction towards the Ka'ba (Mecca) in prayers, some Muslims had died or had been killed and we did not know what to say about them (regarding their prayers.) Allah then revealed: And Allah would never make your faith (prayers) to be lost (i.e. the prayers of those Muslims were valid).' " (2:143). (Book #2, Hadith#39)
(Sahih Bukhari)

Thus, the Holy Prophet (saw) faced Jerusalem, and he turned to Heaven in his plea towards Allah to ask Him to face where he would love to face - which was the Ka'bah in Mecca.

You asked where did Ishmael (as) face according to the Qur'an and the Ahadith. That I can tell you.

2:125 And (remember) when We made the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) a place of resort for mankind and a place of safety. And take you (people) the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham) [or the stone on which Ibrahim (Abraham) عليه السلام stood while he was building the Ka'bah] as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers, e.g. two Rak'at after the Tawaf of the Ka'bahat Makkah), and We commanded Ibrahim (Abraham) and Isma'il (Ishmael) that they should purify My House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) for those who are circumambulating it, or staying (I'tikaf), or bowing or prostrating themselves (there, in prayer).

And in the Ahadith:

Narrated Ibn Abbas: The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. She used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah. Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him, to a place near the Ka'ba under a tree on the spot of Zam-zam, at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water So he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates, and a small water-skin containing some water, and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying, "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything (to enjoy)?" She repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her Then she asked him, "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said, "Yes." She said, "Then He will not neglect us," and returned while Abraham proceeded onwards, and on reaching the Thaniya where they could not see him, he faced the Ka'ba, and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayers: 'O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Your Sacred House (Kaba at Mecca) in order, O our Lord, that they may offer prayer perfectly. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allah) provide them with fruits, so that they may give thanks.' (14.37) Ishmael's mother went on suckling Ishmael and drinking from the water (she had). When the water in the water-skin had all been used up, she became thirsty and her child also became thirsty. She started looking at him (i.e. Ishmael) tossing in agony; She left him, for she could not endure looking at him, and found that the mountain of Safa was the nearest mountain to her on that land. She stood on it and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. Then she descended from Safa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and trouble, till she crossed the valley and reached the Marwa mountain where she stood and started looking, expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. She repeated that (running between Safa and Marwa) seven times." The Prophet said, "This is the source of the tradition of the walking of people between them (i.e. Safa and Marwa). When she reached the Marwa (for the last time) she heard a voice and she asked herself to be quiet and listened attentively. She heard the voice again and said, 'O, (whoever you may be)! You have made me hear your voice; have you got something to help me?" And behold! She saw an angel at the place of Zam-zam, digging the earth with his heel (or his wing), till water flowed from that place. She started to make something like a basin around it, using her hand in this way, and started filling her water-skin with water with her hands, and the water was flowing out after she had scooped some of it." The Prophet added, "May Allah bestow Mercy on Ishmael's mother! Had she let the Zam-zam (flow without trying to control it) (or had she not scooped from that water) (to fill her water-skin), Zam-zam would have been a stream flowing on the surface of the earth." The Prophet further added, "Then she drank (water) and suckled her child. The angel said to her, 'Don't be afraid of being neglected, for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father, and Allah never neglects His people.' The House (i.e. Kaba) at that time was on a high place resembling a hillock, and when torrents came, they flowed to its right and left. She lived in that way till some people from the tribe of Jurhum or a family from Jurhum passed by her and her child, as they (i.e. the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada'. They landed in the lower part of Mecca where they saw a bird that had the habit of flying around water and not leaving it. They said, 'This bird must be flying around water, though we know that there is no water in this valley.' They sent one or two messengers who discovered the source of water, and returned to inform them of the water. So, they all came (towards the water)." The Prophet added, "Ishmael's mother was sitting near the water. They asked her, 'Do you allow us to stay with you?" She replied, 'Yes, but you will have no right to possess the water.' They agreed to that." The Prophet further said, "Ishmael's mother was pleased with the whole situation as she used to love to enjoy the company of the people. So, they settled there, and later on they sent for their families who came and settled with them so that some families became permanent residents there. The child (i.e. Ishmael) grew up and learnt Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up, and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them. After Ishmael's mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael's marriage in order to see his family that he had left before, but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael's wife about him, she replied, 'He has gone in search of our livelihood.' Then he asked her about their way of living and their condition, and she replied, 'We are living in misery; we are living in hardship and destitution,' complaining to him. He said, 'When your husband returns, convey my salutation to him and tell him to change the threshold of the gate (of his house).' When Ishmaelcame, he seemed to have felt something unusual, so he asked his wife, 'Has anyone visited you?' She replied, 'Yes, an old man of so-and-so description came and asked me about you and I informed him, and he asked about our state of living, and I told him that we were living in a hardship and poverty.' On that Ishmael said, 'Did he advise you anything?' She replied, 'Yes, he told me to convey his salutation to you and to tell you to change the threshold of your gate.' Ishmael said, 'It was my father, and he has ordered me to divorce you. Go back to your family.' So, Ishmael divorced her and married another woman from amongst them (i.e. Jurhum). Then Abraham stayed away from them for a period as long as Allah wished and called on them again but did not find Ishmael. So he came to Ishmael's wife and asked her about Ishmael. She said, 'He has gone in search of our livelihood.' Abraham asked her, 'How are you getting on?' asking her about their sustenance and living. She replied, 'We are prosperous and well-off (i.e. we have everything in abundance).' Then she thanked Allah' Abraham said, 'What kind of food do you eat?' She said. 'Meat.' He said, 'What do you drink?' She said, 'Water." He said, "O Allah! Bless their meat and water." The Prophet added, "At that time they did not have grain, and if they had grain, he would have also invoked Allah to bless it." The Prophet added, "If somebody has only these two things as his sustenance, his health and disposition will be badly affected, unless he lives in Mecca." The Prophet added," Then Abraham said Ishmael's wife, "When your husband comes, give my regards to him and tell him that he should keep firm the threshold of his gate.' When Ishmael came back, he asked his wife, 'Did anyone call on you?' She replied, 'Yes, a good-looking old man came to me,' so she praised him and added. 'He asked about you, and I informed him, and he asked about our livelihood and I told him that we were in a good condition.' Ishmael asked her, 'Did he give you any piece of advice?' She said, 'Yes, he told me to give his regards to you and ordered that you should keep firm the threshold of your gate.' On that Ishmael said, 'It was my father, and you are the threshold (of the gate). He has ordered me to keep you with me.' Then Abraham stayed away from them for a period as long as Allah wished, and called on them afterwards. He sawIshmael under a tree near Zamzam, sharpening his arrows. When he saw Abraham, he rose up to welcome him (and they greeted each other as a father does with his son or a son does with his father). Abraham said, 'OIshmael! Allah has given me an order.' Ishmael said, 'Do what your Lord has ordered you to do.' Abraham asked, 'Will you help me?' Ishmael said, 'I will help you.' Abraham said, Allah has ordered me to build a house here,' pointing to a hillock higher than the land surrounding it." The Prophet added, "Then they raised the foundations of the House (i.e. the Ka'ba). Ishmael brought the stones and Abraham was building, and when the walls became high, Ishmael brought this stone and put it for Abraham who stood over it and carried on building, while Ishmael was handing him the stones, and both of them were saying, 'O our Lord! Accept (this service) from us, Verily, You are the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.' The Prophet added, "Then both of them went on building and going round the Ka'ba saying: O our Lord ! Accept (this service) from us, Verily, You are the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing." (2.127) (Book #55, Hadith #583)
(Sahih Bukhari)

As for whether this was based on their like or their love, the answer is in the verses of the Holy Qur'an following verse 2:125:

2:126 And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) said, "My Lord, make this city (Makkah) a place of security and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the Last Day." He (Allah) answered: "As for him who disbelieves, I shall leave him in contentment for a while, then I shall compel him to the torment of the Fire, and worst indeed is that destination!"

2:127 And (remember) when Ibrahim (Abraham) and (his son) Isma'il (Ishmael) were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah), (saying), "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us. Verily! You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knower."

2:128 Our Lord! And make us submissive unto You and of our offspring a nation submissive unto You, and show us our Manasik (all the ceremonies of pilgrimage - Hajjand 'Umrah), and accept our repentance. Truly, You are the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.

2:129 Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own (and indeed Allah answered their invocation by sending Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book (this Qur'an) and Al-Hikmah (full knowledge of the Islamic laws and jurisprudence or wisdom or Prophethood), and purify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."

2:130 And who turns away from the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham) (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

Thus, why would Hazrat Ishmael (as) and Hazrat Ibrahim (as) pray for the people of the city of Makkah, and pray that they do rituals to this House in the future generations if they did not love it so much? It was a House of Allah to them, and it was dear to them because they wished for a Prophet to be raised amongst them. Otherwise, Allah would not have made such an important reference to it. Namely, it being in the Qur'an.


And you asked what is the perfect law? Islamic Shari'a is the perfect law. The Holy Qur'an says:

5:3 "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion."

The Ahadith on this verse make it clear that even the Jews wish they had such a revelation from Allah for their religion:

Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: Once a Jew said to me, "O the chief of believers! There is a verse in your Holy Book Which is read by all of you (Muslims), and had it been revealed to us, we would have taken that day (on which it was revealed as a day of celebration." 'Umar bin Al-Khattab asked, "Which is that verse?" The Jew replied, "This day I have perfected your religion For you, completed My favor upon you, And have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5:3) 'Umar replied,"No doubt, we know when and where this verse was revealed to the Prophet. It was Friday and the Prophet was standing at 'Arafat (i.e. the Day of Hajj)" (Book #2, Hadith#43)
(Sahih Bukhari)

Islam is the complete law for mankind from Allah. It is the only law which is meant to be until the Day of Judgment for all of humanity. Its laws have abrogated all other religious laws before it.

And yes, the Holy Prophet (saw) was prophesied to face Jerusalem in previous texts. I do not know where it is mentioned in the previous texts, but the explanation of this verse shows this:

Tafsir Al Jalalayn on verse 2:144:
We have indeed (qad, ‘indeed’, is for affirmation) seen you turning your face about in the, direction of the, heaven, looking around for the Revelation and longing for the command to face the Ka‘ba: he [the Prophet] wished for this because it was the prayer-direction of Abraham and would be more conducive to the submission of the Arabs [to Islam]; now We will surely turn you to a direction that shall satisfy you, that you will love. Turn your face, in prayer, towards the Sacred Mosque, that is, the Ka‘ba, and wherever you are (addressing the [Muslim] community) turn your faces, in prayer, towards it. Those who have been given the Scripture know that it, the change towards the Ka‘ba, is the, fixed, truth from their Lord, on account of the description in their Scripture of how the Prophet (s) would re-orient himself to it; God is not heedless of what you do, O believers, when you obey His command (alternatively, ta‘malūna, ‘you do’, can be read ya‘malūna, ‘they do’, in other words [it would be referring to] the Jews’ denial of the matter concerning the direction of prayer).

And you said:
"I know that most Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and others accepted him. They
would go on and become the Christians (the followers of Christ). But why do you
think the Jews (which are very stringent on matters of lineage), would ever accept a
non-Jewish prophet?"

The fact is, Ibrahim (as) prayed for a Prophet to be raised amongst the Arabs, as the prayer of him and Ishmael (as) in the above verses in Surah Al Baqarah I quoted show.

You asked a lot of questions, and I gave some long answers. But you wanted references so I gave them to you. I hope you took the time to read them since I tried to make sure that you understood this matter properly. It seems you were unaware of the meaning behind the changing of the Qiblah for the Muslims. Should you still be unclear about anything feel free to ask and I will try to answer and so will anyone else here. Allah knows best in the end.


Peace.
Reply

theplains
03-25-2013, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
2:125 And (remember) when We made the House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) a place of resort for mankind and a place of safety. And take you (people) the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham) [or the stone on which Ibrahim (Abraham) عليه السلام stood while he was building the Ka'bah] as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers, e.g. two Rak'at after the Tawaf of the Ka'bahat Makkah), and We commanded Ibrahim (Abraham) and Isma'il (Ishmael) that they should purify My House (the Ka'bah at Makkah) for those who are circumambulating it, or staying (I'tikaf), or bowing or prostrating themselves (there, in prayer).
When the Jews built the temple in Jerusalem, were the descendants of Ishmael commanded
to pray towards the Kabah or Jerusalem?

You asked a lot of questions, and I gave some long answers. But you wanted references so I gave them to you. I hope you took the time to read them since I tried to make sure that you understood this matter properly. It seems you were unaware of the meaning behind the changing of the Qiblah for the Muslims. Should you still be unclear about anything feel free to ask and I will try to answer and so will anyone else here. Allah knows best in the end.
Thank you. I appreciate your indepth answers very much.

Peace,
Jim
Reply

Ahmad H
03-26-2013, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
When the Jews built the temple in Jerusalem, were the descendants of Ishmael commanded
to pray towards the Kabah or Jerusalem?
Peace,
Jim
They were not commanded to face Jerusalem. In fact, the Quraish were custodians of the Ka'bah and they took care of it. All of the descendants of Ishmael (as) worshipped around the Ka'bah. The problem was that they made idols in the Ka'bah. They made 360 of them, which during the Conquest of Makkah the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) shattered them all and made the Ka'bah restored to a House of worship of only One God - Allah. This information is in the Seerahs of the Holy Prophet (saw), so this information would have to be sought there. I think you can find Ibn Hisham's "Life of Muhammad" online somewhere for sure now. If not, there is definitely some explanation of this elsewhere. There are Ahadith here and there that might have evidence for this, but will not cover the complete history of it. Sorry I couldn't find you the sources right away. Perhaps if you post another thread requesting this information there will be some on the forum who may get this information to you. In the meantime, I can look and see whats there. But what I told you is common knowledge amongst Muslims.
Reply

theplains
03-27-2013, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
They were not commanded to face Jerusalem. In fact, the Quraish were custodians of the Ka'bah and they took care of it. All of the descendants of Ishmael (as) worshipped around the Ka'bah. The problem was that they made idols in the Ka'bah. They made 360 of them, which during the Conquest of Makkah the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw) shattered them all and made the Ka'bah restored to a House of worship of only One God - Allah.
I need some clarification.

You mentioned that the Ishmaelites were praying towards the Kabah. I assume this was
before the Jews built their temple in Jerusalem.

But when the temple was built, the Jews were praying towards the temple.

What of the Jews and Ishmaelites living in Arabia? Were they commanded to pray towards
Mecca or Jerusalem? Or did they have separate commands to worship toward their own
cities?

You mentioned that the Kabah was filled with 360 idols. We know that Jerusalem's temple
was destroyed by the Romans around 70 C.E. and the majority of the Jews had basically
abandoned God by rejecting the Messiah.

Since both centers were in a form of apostasy and the temple in Jerusalem was basically
non-existent, why would Muhammad pray towards Jerusalem first instead of Mecca? Was
this done so he could gain acceptance by the Jews?

Thanks,
Jim
Reply

جوري
03-27-2013, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
You mentioned that the Ishmaelites were praying towards the Kabah. I assume this was
before the Jews built their temple in Jerusalem.
Not sure where you get expressions like 'Ishmaelites' from but given that you worship the man instead of God I imagine you so have to categorize everyone.
both beyt Al maqdis and Kaaba were built about 40 years apart and that was way before abrhamites or ishamelites or jesusites so nothing at all to do with your track of thinking it is because :Allah::swt: so commanded for a wisdom he knew of that we later came to embrace (see my subsequent comment) ..


Originally Posted by theplains
Since both centers were in a form of apostasy and the temple in Jerusalem was basically
non-existent, why would Muhammad pray towards Jerusalem first instead of Mecca? Was
this done so he could gain acceptance by the Jews?
That's because it is common knowledge to :Allah::swt: that beyt almaqdis would be defiled by Jews and that Muslims couldn't make their pilgrimage there for a period of time so the qiblah as well place of pilgrimage is in Makkah!

best,
Reply

tearose
03-27-2013, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
why would Muhammad pray towards Jerusalem first instead of Mecca?
You already asked this and I already pointed out the answer to you in post 9
Reply

جوري
03-27-2013, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by tearose
You already asked this and I already pointed out the answer to you in post 9
I have also replied to him but if you'll follow the majority of his threads and posts you'll so find that he doesn't read the responses given but finds 'new' ways to ask the same thing over and over, that's how he evangelizes.. is it working for you?

:w:
Reply

tearose
03-27-2013, 10:44 PM
:sl:

Yes, I've noticed these seemingly disengenous techniques, but perhaps if he sees that regardless of different wordings there are still answers to all these queries, he might have to take them more seriously. Allah knows best his real intention here, but if it is for anything other than seeking information, I think it is too transparent to have any effect on anyone
Reply

جوري
03-27-2013, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by tearose
:sl:

Yes, I've noticed these seemingly disengenous techniques, but perhaps if he sees that regardless of different wordings there are still answers to all these queries, he might have to take them more seriously. Allah knows best his real intention here, but if it is for anything other than seeking information, I think it is too transparent to have any effect on anyone
It is true we can't rip anyone's chest and be able to actually see what ills are held in that morsel called the heart. Problem I see with most if not all christian missionaries (illa man ra7ima rabbi) the likes of Dr. Gary Miller in whose sincere search to debate Muslims which required him 20 years of study turned him into a Muslim himself and he gave us as a result the amazing Quran; the rest are so irritatingly sophomoric they don't merit a reply but somehow the silence is construed by them to mean some sort of victory so they persist until you lose every ounce of sanity you can only deal on a certain level. Watch though he'll come back with something that will be perceived as genuine by the sheeples and they'll feel sorry and you'll end up being the bad guy perhaps reprimanded by a mod or a bunch of hyenas chasing you out through power by number. Truly there are so few who aren't afraid to stand alone!

:w:
Reply

tearose
03-27-2013, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
somehow the silence is construed by them to mean some sort of victory
That's what I was thinking, that's why I kept posting. As for the rest, I sincerely hope it won't turn out like that in sha Allah. In fact we really need knowledgeable members to respond, especially those who are native Arabic speakers, even if it is a bit exhausting at times! Because sometimes reverts like myself want to respond to allegations but if we don't have much knowledge ourselves. That's why I hold back sometimes unless I'm sure, because I could end up doing more harm than good.
Reply

Ahmad H
03-29-2013, 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by theplains
I need some clarification.

You mentioned that the Ishmaelites were praying towards the Kabah. I assume this was
before the Jews built their temple in Jerusalem.

But when the temple was built, the Jews were praying towards the temple.

What of the Jews and Ishmaelites living in Arabia? Were they commanded to pray towards
Mecca or Jerusalem? Or did they have separate commands to worship toward their own
cities?

You mentioned that the Kabah was filled with 360 idols. We know that Jerusalem's temple
was destroyed by the Romans around 70 C.E. and the majority of the Jews had basically
abandoned God by rejecting the Messiah.

Since both centers were in a form of apostasy and the temple in Jerusalem was basically
non-existent, why would Muhammad pray towards Jerusalem first instead of Mecca? Was
this done so he could gain acceptance by the Jews?

Thanks,
Jim

I will quote an excerpt from the Commentary of the Qur'an on verse 2:144 from Abdullah Yusuf Ali. He has explained this question of yours, which I have not seen answered in any other commentary (at least from the available English ones I have access to, which is quote a lot actually).

He wrote:
"...Until the organization of his own people into a well-knit community, with its distinctive laws and ordinances, he followed a practice based on the fact that the Jews and Christians looked upon Jerusalem as a sacred city. But there was no universal Qibla among them. Some Jews turned towards Jerusalem, especially during the Captivity, as we shall see later. At the time of our Prophet, Jerusalem was in the hands of the Byzantine Empire, which was Christian..."

This is an excerpt of what he wrote on this verse, but it is the only relevant portion in response to your question, I believe. Thus, the Holy Prophet (saw) did not face Jerusalem to please the Jews. Perhaps it helped to convert many of them at first, but those who hated the change in the Qibla were exposed for their hidden hypocrisy because they showed their dislike for this Divine Command from Allah.

Of course, it is still the fact that the facing in the direction of Jerusalem as a Qibla. It is unlikely that the Holy Prophet (saw) tried to please the Jews by facing the direction of Jerusalem. Even if at one point the Holy Prophet (saw) thought this way about the Qibla being Jerusalem (and Allah knows best in the end), then Allah admonished him about trying to please both the Jews and the Christians in the Holy Qur'an:

2:120 Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) till you follow their religion. Say: "Verily, the Guidance of Allah (i.e. Islamic Monotheism) that is the (only) Guidance. And if you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) were to follow their (Jews and Christians) desires after what you have received of Knowledge (i.e. the Qur'an), then you would have against Allah neither any Wali (protector or guardian) nor any helper.

Furthermore, the above excerpt mentions that the facing was towards Jerusalem as a sacred city, not at the temple itself specifically. To be honest, I did not know that until now myself. So I should thank you for helping me to be more guided in this by researching more on this issue and being more clarified in my understanding of it.

And since Mecca and both Jerusalem were in a state of evil behavior (I am not sure if apostasy was the only issue), then the only conclusion is that the facing is towards a sacred center in general. Jerusalem is considered pretty eminent by Muslims since the Isra of the Holy Prophet (saw) entailed him traveling to Jerusalem from Mecca. There is no doubt that the city itself is sacred. In fact, Jerusalem is considered holy because it has the sacred site of the "Furthest Mosque" which is mentioned in verse 17:1

17:1 Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] Who took His slave (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidence, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer .

But in order to fully satisfy your answer, you should know that the sacred site in Jerusalem is the later completed Masjid Al-Aqsa which was finished in A.H 68. Abdullah Yusuf Ali write under this verse the following (an excerpt):

"The Farthest Mosque must refer to the site of the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem on the hill of Moriah, at or near which stands the Dome of the Rock, called also the mosque of Hadrat 'Umar. This and the Mosque known as the Farthest Mosque (Al-Masjid-ul-Aqsa) were completed by the Amir 'Abd-ul-Malik in A.H. 68. Farthest, because it was the place of worship farthest west which was known to the Arabs in the time of the Prophet; it was a sacred place to both Jews and Christians, but the Christians then had the upper hand, as it was included in the Byzantine (Roman) Empire, which maintained a Patriarch at Jerusalem."

The mosque itself is not necessarily the Qibla in Jerusalem. This is not what I mean. But, the Muslims simply followed the practice of the Jews and Christians until their own law fully developed. Facing Jerusalem remained part of the Divine Command until Allah told the Muslims otherwise. As I explained earlier, the reasons for this are that there were prophecies reported by the early Muslim scholars which the Jews had that showed this trait amongst the Prophet who would be raised in Arabia. For good reason too. If you think about it, the line of Prophethood for the Prophets through Ishaq (as) (that is, Isaac) finished, and the line of Prophethood was still left for the Ishmaelites, who would have the final Prophet of Allah. Thus, this changing of Qibla is in a way a metaphorical sign of the changing of this line of prophethood since the prayers offered were at the house which Ishmael (as) and Ibrahim (as) built and prayed at its completion that the people of that particular city should have a Prophet to guide them to the ways of worship. And that worship was specifically referring to being towards that particular House of Allah - the Ka'ba.

So, the Jews rejecting the Messiah has nothing to do with the facing towards Jerusalem, nor does it affect anything here in any way, except that that itself was one of the causes for the disruption of Prophethood in the line of Ishaq (as). But this is mere speculation on my part about those effects. Allah knows best in the end.

Let me know if you have any more questions. i hope this helped answer some of them for you.
Reply

theplains
03-29-2013, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by شَادِنُ
Not sure where you get expressions like 'Ishmaelites' from
Descendants of Ishmael.

both beyt Al maqdis and Kaaba were built about 40 years apart and that was way before abrhamites or ishamelites or jesusites so nothing at all to do with your track of thinking
Not sure what the Al Maqdis you are referring to is. The Temple in Jerusalem was built
in Solomon's time. Ishmael had died long before this.

Peace,
Jim
Reply

theplains
03-29-2013, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Let me know if you have any more questions. i hope this helped answer some of them for you.
Thank you Ahmad. I appreciate your respect towards me in answering the questions.
You have helped a lot.

Peace,
Jim
Reply

tearose
03-29-2013, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
The Temple in Jerusalem was built
in Solomon's time. Ishmael had died long before this.
That is a misconception. Please see the following:

Question


Who built Al-Aqsa mosque in Palestine?


Answer


Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the World; and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.
It is reported by Al Bukhari and Muslim from Abu Dharr that he said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram". I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqsa (i.e. Al-quds)". I asked, "What was the period in between them?" He replied, "Forty (years)", He then added, "Wherever the time for the prayer comes upon you, perform the prayer, for all the earth is a place of worshipping for you".
As for who built Al Aqsa mosque, there is a disagreement among historians over that issue. Some say it was built by Adam (Alaihi Al Salaam). Others say it was built by Abraham (Alaihi Al Salaam).
Apparently, it was built by Yaqub Ibn Ishaq Ibn Ibrahim (Alaihim Al Salaam) and Allah knows Best.
As for Sulaiman's (Alaihi Al Salaam) building of the Aqsa mosque, it was only a rebuilding and rehabilitation, not laying the foundation, as there were more than forty years between Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Sulaiman (Alaihima Al Salaam) and it is certain that Ibrahim (Alaihi Al Salaam) built the Holy Mosque in Mekkah and there were forty years between it and Al Aqsa mosque as narrated in the sound Hadith cited above.
Allah knows best.

(from http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=83441)


Reply

جوري
03-29-2013, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Descendants of Ishmael.
That's not an expression we use!



Originally Posted by theplains
Not sure what the Al Maqdis you are referring to is.
of course you don't!

best,
Reply

Ahmad H
03-29-2013, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Thank you Ahmad. I appreciate your respect towards me in answering the questions.
You have helped a lot.

Peace,
Jim
Anytime Jim. Thank you for being respectful in asking questions as well. You have helped me to look into things I have not looked into so well myself for a long time. Please keep asking questions because I learn from it as well.

Peace be with you.
Reply

theplains
03-30-2013, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by tearose
That is a misconception. Please see the following:

Question


Who built Al-Aqsa mosque in Palestine?
Thanks for the clarification. I was referring to the Temple in Jerusalem but the poster
in #15 was apparently referring to something else (Al Maqdis, the Al-Aqsa mosque).

Peace,
Jim
Reply

tearose
03-30-2013, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Thanks for the clarification.
You're welcome.

Originally Posted by theplains
I was referring to the Temple in Jerusalem but the poster
in #15 was apparently referring to something else (Al Maqdis, the Al-Aqsa mosque).
No, she is referring to the same thing. In fact, we are all referring to the same thing; it's just that you are getting confused between the names. Bait al-Maqdis is more or less the same thing as masjid al-aqsa; see explanation below Allah willing.
Then some Jews and Christians have started referring to it as a temple; I'm not sure why.

Question

I would want to know the differences and the locations of Masjid Aqsa and Baitul Maqdis.


Answer


All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad icon1 1 - , is His slave and Messenger. Baytul-Maqdis is itself the Al-Aqsa mosque about which Allaah Says (what means): {Exalted is He who took His Servant [i.e. Prophet Muhammad (icon1 1 - ) by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.}[Quran 17:1] It is also confirmed that the Prophet icon1 1 - said: "When the tribe of Quraysh belied me, I stood on the Hijr of Isma’eel (Ishmael) [The area adjacent to the northwest side of the Ka’bah, enclosed by a low semi-circular wall in the sacred mosque in Makkah] and Allaah showed me Baytul-Maqdis and I started describing it to them while I was looking at it."This is the meaning in principle, however, sometimes we mention Baytul-Maqdis to refer to something greater than it. Hence, some times it refers to the area in which Baytul-Maqdis and its precincts are, as in the saying of the Prophet icon1 1 - said: “Baytul-Maqdis will be conquered.”It is also used to refer to Jerusalem which includes Al-Aqsa mosque in the general meaning. However, by Baytul-Maqdis we do not refer to the entire Palestine or Greater Syria, and these are not considered holy as Baytul-Maqdis, however, it may be included in the surrounding area of Al-Aqsa that has this characteristic (i.e. sanctity). Allaah Says (what means): {Exalted is He who took His Servant [i.e. Prophet Muhammad (icon1 1 - )] by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.}[Quran 17:1] Allaah Knows best.


Reply

facethetruth
09-03-2013, 05:37 PM
No, in the beginning we were ordered to pray towards Alaqsa Jerusalem but our prophet prayres and peace be upon him loved to pray to Meccah so Allah made all Muslims to change their direction for that for our beloved prophet prayers and peace be upon him who I will scarify myself father and mother for him
Reply

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