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NMH1977
03-21-2013, 03:01 PM
Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters.


We all know the importance of knowledge, and as advised by Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) we are directed to seek knowledge. This is an important matter, to challenge lies, and promote the truth and show reason. Prophet Ibrahim (AS) challenged his father with the illogical matter of worshiping made-made idols. Likewise we challenge the unreasonable position of those who believe that "nothing can occur from nothing", or in the case of arguments of eternal matter the illogical position of any element of matter existing if there is no case for its existence, or definition of structure.


Accordingly I have been seeking knowledge from the Quran, as we are directed to do, and also reading the Christian and Jewish scriptures as a matter of interest. Reading through the Jewish and Christian scriptures there are numerous paragraphs that appear to support the appearance of "another prophet", and this is even eluded to by Prophet Isa (AS). However, there is a great emphasis on the Prophets of Hebrew origin. In the Quran it is clearly stated "the Children of Israel" were the favored people by Allah (SWT). So even from an Islamic view point, Israel and the Jewish people were given great favor


One of the things leveled against us as Muslims is the accusation that Islam is based on ideas from the Jewish and Christian faiths. I was seeking knowledge in the Jewish and Christian scriptures that may show that Prophet Ibrahim (AS) did in fact travel to Mecca. This is important because Prophet Ibrahim (AS) is viewed with great importance in monotheism and his quest for knowledge led to the births of the three major religions. Through my initial research there is nothing that indicates that Prophet Ibrahim (AS) went to Mecca according the the Jewish and Christian scriptures, and there is no archaeological evidence from historic/artifacts that show this journey occurred


The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls have also failed to provide an indication of a change on the current viewpoint of the journey of Prophet Ibrahim (AS). I have carried out basic research and it appears that again nothing is shown the would support any travel into the Arabian Peninsular, and specifically towards Mecca.


No doubt these questions will be put to us as an ummah again and again. An initial investigation of research on the internet into previous responses by us as Muslims as often, in my, opinion shown us to respond in embarrassing and less than impressive ways. Unfortunately, many responses are often given with "jokes", or left unresponded to.

Therefore, we as Muslims need to have an answer with is intellectual, and promotes us Muslims in a positive manner. Even from an Islamic viewpoint we should be able to counter this allegation. However, I have been disappointed that from referring to Quranic and Hadith references I cannot find an answer for this allegation. I pray to Allah (SWT) that he can assist myself, or another person that could find this missing piece of treasure that would answer this allegation. A discovery of such a nature was represent a major discovery, and be a missing piece of an historical jigsaw. Surely the truth must prevail and I shall continue the search for this answer.




I would be grateful even anyone with knowledge could assist with the following points/questions.


1. According to Jewish/Christian scriptures Prophet Ismail (AS) was sent with his mother by Prophet Ibrahim (AS) into the "wilderness of the Paran desert". We are told as Muslims to think using intellect but surely to journey from the NW Arabian peninsular to Mecca on foot appears to go against normal reasoning. Analyzing the Jewish/Christian scriptures the location of the "Paran desert" it would appear more reasonable to support the idea of the place where Prophet Ismail (AS) and his mother to be left would be around the desert, specifically around the Palestine/Jordanian area

2. All places in the Jewish/Christian scriptures provide names and places for Prophet Ibrahim's (AS) journey which appear logically, and in accordance with reason. There is nothing that even offers an indication of any locations, direction of travel that would involve heading towards Mecca.

3. Clearly the Jewish/Christian scriptures have been altered and forged, which have been proven by non-Muslim scholars. This is why Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was sent as a blessing and mercy to correct the perversions of previous peoples. However, surely there should be some sort of indication that provides even a slight hint that Prophet Ibrahim (AS) went in a southward direction towards Mecca. These scriptures were sent before the arrival of Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) so logically there would be no need to "cover-up" any journey of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) towards Mecca.
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Scimitar
03-21-2013, 03:16 PM
I don't know if you've looked into the EBLA TABLETS ???

They mention Ibraheem AS and Ishmail AS.

Here is some info you might enjoy reading:

The Ebla Tablets


Dating back to around 2500 BC, the Ebla tablets provide very important information regarding the history of religions. The most important feature of the Ebla tablets, discovered by archaeologists in 1975 and which have been the subject of much research and debate ever since, is that they contain the names of three prophets referred to in holy scriptures.


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The discovery after thousands of years of the Ebla tablets and the information they contain is extremely important from the point of view of clarifying the geographical location of societies revealed in the Quran.


Around 2500 BC, Ebla was a kingdom covering an area that included the Syrian capital Damascus and south-east Turkey . This kingdom reached a cultural and economic peak but later, as happened to a great many civilizations, it disappeared from the stage of history. It was apparent from the records that were kept that the Kingdom of Ebla was a major cultural and commercial center of the time. (1) The people of Ebla possessed a civilization that established state archives, built libraries and recorded commercial contracts in written form. They even had their own language, known as Eblaite.


The History of Buried Religions


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The true importance of the Kingdom of Ebla , regarded as a great success for classical archaeology when first discovered in 1975, came to light with the finding of some 20,000 cuneiform tablets and fragments. This archive was four times greater than all the cuneiform texts known to archaeologists over the last 3,000 years.


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When the language used in the tablets was deciphered by the Italian Giovanni Pettinato, an epigrapher from the University of Rome , the scale of their importance was better understood. As a result of this, the finding of the Kingdom of Ebla and this magnificent state archive became a matter not just of archaeological interest, but one of interest to religious circles, too. That was because as well as the names Michael (Mi-ka-il) and Talut (Sa-u-lum), who struggled alongside the Prophet David, they also contained the names of prophets mentioned in the three holy books: The Prophet Abraham (Ab-ra-mu), the Prophet David (Da-u-dum) and the Prophet Ishamel (Ish-ma-il). (2)


The Importance of the Names on the Ebla Tablets


The names of the prophets identified in the Ebla tablets are of the greatest importance as this was the first time that they had been encountered in historical documents of such age. This information, dating back to 1500 years before the Torah, was most striking. The appearance in the tablets of the name of the Prophet Abraham recorded that the Prophet Abraham and the religion brought by him had existed before the Torah.


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Historians analyzed the Ebla tablets from this perspective, and this major discovery regarding the Prophet Abraham and his mission became the subject of research with regard to the history of religions. David Noel Freedman, an American archaeologist and researcher into the history of religions, reported, based on his studies, the names of such prophets as Abraham and Ishmael in the tablets. (3)


Other Names in the Tablets


As stated above the names in the tablets were those of prophets referred to in the three holy books, and the tablets were far older than the Torah. In addition to these names there were also other subjects and place names in the tablets, from which it can be seen that the Eblaites were very successful traders. The names Sinai, Gaza and Jerusalem , not too distant from Ebla , also appeared in the texts, showing that the Eblaites enjoyed commercial and cultural links with these places. (4)


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One important detail seen in the tablets was the names of the areas of Sodom and Gomorrah , where the people of Lot lived. It is known that Sodom and Gomorrah was a region on the shore of the Dead Sea where the people of Lot lived and where the Prophet Lot communicated his message and called people to live by religious moral values. In addition to these two names, that of the city of Iram , which appears in the verses of the Qur'an, is also among those in the Ebla tablets.


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The most noteworthy aspect of these names is that apart from in the texts communicated by the prophets, they had never before appeared in any other text. This is important documentary evidence showing that reports of the prophets who communicated the message of the one true religion of Submission (Islam) at that time had reached those areas. In an article in Reader's Digest magazine it was recorded that that there had been a change in the Eblaites' religion during the reign of King Ebrum and that people had begun to add prefixes to their names in order to exalt the name of Almighty God.


As Always, GOD's Promise Is True


The history of Ebla and the Ebla tablets which came to light after some 4,500 years actually point to one major truth: God sent messengers to Ebla , as He did to every community, and these called their peoples to the true religion of Submission (Islam).


Some people adhered to the religion that came to them and thus attained the true path, while others opposed the message of the prophets and preferred a wicked life.


PRAISE BE TO GOD!!


References
1) "Ebla", Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopaedia , © 1995 Funk & Wagnalls Corporation, Infopedia 2.0, SoftKey Multimedia Inc.
2) Howard La Fay , "Ebla: Splendour of an Unknown Empire," National Geographic Magazine , December 1978, p. 736; C. Bermant and M. Weitzman, Ebla: A Revelation in Archaeology , Times Books, 1979, Wiedenfeld and Nicolson, Great Britain, pp. 184.
3) Bilim ve Teknik magazine (Science and Technology), No. 118, September 1977 and No. 131 October 1978.


Source: https://sites.google.com/site/eviden...e-ebla-tablets


Scimi
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Scimitar
03-21-2013, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by NMH1977
1. According to Jewish/Christian scriptures Prophet Ismail (AS) was sent with his mother by Prophet Ibrahim (AS) into the "wilderness of the Paran desert". We are told as Muslims to think using intellect but surely to journey from the NW Arabian peninsular to Mecca on foot appears to go against normal reasoning. Analyzing the Jewish/Christian scriptures the location of the "Paran desert" it would appear more reasonable to support the idea of the place where Prophet Ismail (AS) and his mother to be left would be around the desert, specifically around the Palestine/Jordanian area
1) Let's not forget that Musa AS travelled an even greater expanse of land, and did this twice over - on foot.
2) The areas known as Palestine and Jordan were already inhabited, by giants if we go by the biblical descriptions of those places - in that time frame so no, it could not be Jordan or Palestine.
3) Consider the world Wilderness. Paran was the gateway to the Arabian "wilderness" - just the gate way. And it hardly provided protection for a woman who would camp alone with her infant child - a lot of caravan traders and looters would pass through that area, on their journey East, for trade and uhm, looting. To reach safety, one would have to travel south, to regions not normally inhabited. Hence they reached Mecca, which is a valley that provided some protection from the elements, and a good height to see trading caravans and signs of life.

Originally Posted by NMH1977
2. All places in the Jewish/Christian scriptures provide names and places for Prophet Ibrahim's (AS) journey which appear logically, and in accordance with reason. There is nothing that even offers an indication of any locations, direction of travel that would involve heading towards Mecca.
Actually, a litte comparative research let's us discover that Arabia was inhabited at that time. Just because these so called experts claim that there is no historical nor archaelogical evidence to prove so, does not make it true. If we take a look at the way people lived in Arabia, prior to settlement of Hajar with Ishmail AS, we find that it was inhabited by nomadic societies.

Nomadic peopel do not "build" so to speak, they leave the land relatively untouched, and only carry what they need - so whatever archelogogical evidence these so called experts are looking for, is stupid.

It is proven that Arabia has always been nomadic, in fact, even today a Bedouin culture exists and that way of life, preserved.

Originally Posted by NMH1977
3. Clearly the Jewish/Christian scriptures have been altered and forged, which have been proven by non-Muslim scholars. This is why Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was sent as a blessing and mercy to correct the perversions of previous peoples. However, surely there should be some sort of indication that provides even a slight hint that Prophet Ibrahim (AS) went in a southward direction towards Mecca. These scriptures were sent before the arrival of Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) so logically there would be no need to "cover-up" any journey of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) towards Mecca.
Actually, there is. If you listen to the accounts of the bedouin people, they can tell you their stories, ancient fables, passed down from father to son, for thousands of years.

Hence, you will dfind stories about Sinai, where Musa AS recevied the 10 commandments being related in Arabia and matched to the location of Midian in Arabia - same place the bible mentions in the new and old testaments.... yet - the Christians and Jews still go to the wrong location, in the wrongly titled "sinai peninsula" in Egypt. If you need more info on that, to rebuttal Christian and Judaic method, then here it is: http://wup-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=20815

It will make any non Muslim from the Abrahamic line, question where they get their knowledge from :D

Scimi
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Abu Loren
03-21-2013, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by NMH1977
1. According to Jewish/Christian scriptures Prophet Ismail (AS) was sent with his mother by Prophet Ibrahim (AS) into the "wilderness of the Paran desert". We are told as Muslims to think using intellect but surely to journey from the NW Arabian peninsular to Mecca on foot appears to go against normal reasoning. Analyzing the Jewish/Christian scriptures the location of the "Paran desert" it would appear more reasonable to support the idea of the place where Prophet Ismail (AS) and his mother to be left would be around the desert, specifically around the Palestine/Jordanian area
.................................................. .............................


Originally Posted by NMH1977
2. All places in the Jewish/Christian scriptures provide names and places for Prophet Ibrahim's (AS) journey which appear logically, and in accordance with reason. There is nothing that even offers an indication of any locations, direction of travel that would involve heading towards Mecca.
.................................................. ............................



Originally Posted by NMH1977
3. Clearly the Jewish/Christian scriptures have been altered and forged, which have been proven by non-Muslim scholars. This is why Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was sent as a blessing and mercy to correct the perversions of previous peoples. However, surely there should be some sort of indication that provides even a slight hint that Prophet Ibrahim (AS) went in a southward direction towards Mecca. These scriptures were sent before the arrival of Prophet Muhammad (SallAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) so logically there would be no need to "cover-up" any journey of Prophet Ibrahim (AS) towards Mecca.
.................................................. .................
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facethetruth
09-03-2013, 05:41 PM
In the name of Allah the most merciful. We are Muslims we have different rulings in Fiqh but same Aqeda as prophets. There is no need to to be this specific, Allah told our prophet prayers and peace be upon him these stories for him to know what other prophets went through which would help him as is indicated in the quran and for us to learn from these stories and so on. There is no need to know if he went north or south we need to know that he went to Meccah to build the Kaba. Jazak Allah khair.
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Muhaba
09-03-2013, 07:00 PM
Very interesting information here about Ebla.
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Scimitar
09-03-2013, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
The most noteworthy aspect of these names is that apart from in the texts communicated by the prophets, they had never before appeared in any other text. This is important documentary evidence showing that reports of the prophets who communicated the message of the one true religion of Submission (Islam) at that time had reached those areas. In an article in Reader's Digest magazine it was recorded that that there had been a change in the Eblaites' religion during the reign of King Ebrum and that people had begun to add prefixes to their names in order to exalt the name of Almighty God.
Don't know if anyone picked up on this little tidbit of information which correlates with our very own Islamic naming practice of having the prefix "Abdul" before a name. For example "Abdul Raheem", meaning "servant of The Merciful/Compassionate". So, this practice we Muslims from the Muhammadan period onwards thought this was unique to us, is actually a revived naming practice that we are honoured to share with the Prophet Ibraheem AS people :) Now that, is something! because it goes a long way to proving the OP that the Ismail (AS) and his mother Hajar journeyed on, from Israel to Makkah, did happen. The evidence is still there. Linked by the Ebla tablets, in obvious and some not so obvious ways :)

Scimi
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Abz2000
09-04-2013, 12:56 AM
I've grappled with this topic a few years back, I did find that certain crucial words appear to have been changed from their places and a cover-up is the most credible e plantation I can find,

Genesis tells us a similar story to that which we know from ahadith of hajar (as) as Ismail (as) wit a few additions and subtractions, arab pagans before the prophet pbuh even acknowledged the fatherhood of abraham and ismail (as). complete descriptions of them matched those of the bible including the hadith of ismail (as) sharpening his arrows and genesis confirms that he (pbuh) was an archer. Many Jews and Christians also dispute with Muslims about the subject of the sacrifice etc.

The genesis description begins to get a little intriguing immediately after the story of hajar and ismailwith the dispute over a well, we are told it is Beersheba despite the well of Zamzam being in Makkah, and the story of the sacrifice of his (pbuh) "only son" (which comes immediately after) also gives the name of the place he pbuh goes immediately to after the sacrifice as........Beersheba.


One other possibly related thing I found in the new testament seems to have been a reference to a lost story, a story which is described in the Quran, where Abraham pbuh is guided to the place of the house, here's something from the NT - not found in the OT

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. (Hebrews 11:8-11 KJV)

Another issue one might want to point out if authenticity is bought into question is to be found here:

And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah–jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen. (Genesis 22:13, 14 KJV)

It isn't likely he'd know the name Jehovah as we are told in the bible itself that Abraham (pbuh) didn't know God by that name. He used the term which gets the gist of the Arabic term Allah.

And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty,
but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them. (Exodus 6:2, 3 KJV)


يٰأَهلَ الكِتٰبِ لِمَ تُحاجّونَ فى إِبرٰهيمَ وَما أُنزِلَتِ التَّورىٰةُ وَالإِنجيلُ إِلّا مِن بَعدِهِ ۚ أَفَلا تَعقِلونَ

Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?
Quran 3:65

We can see that historically, the Makkah description is well grounded,
However the names of places and even that of Almighty God are tampered with by unscrupulous soul sellers who seem to have preferred keeping people in the dark from the truth, the motive seems to be power, envy, and belligerence:


Qurant?

وَإِذا لَقُوا الَّذينَ ءامَنوا قالوا ءامَنّا وَإِذا خَلا بَعضُهُم إِلىٰ بَعضٍ قالوا أَتُحَدِّثونَهُم بِما فَتَحَ اللَّهُ عَلَيكُم لِيُحاجّوكُم بِهِ عِندَ رَبِّكُم ۚ أَفَلا تَعقِلونَ

Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say: \"We believe\":
But when they meet each other in private, they say: \"Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?\"- Do ye not have any understanding?

Quran 2:76


إِنَّ الَّذينَ يَكتُمونَ ما أَنزَلنا مِنَ البَيِّنٰتِ وَالهُدىٰ مِن بَعدِ ما بَيَّنّٰهُ لِلنّاسِ فِى الكِتٰبِ ۙ أُولٰئِكَ يَلعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلعَنُهُمُ اللّٰعِنونَ

Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah\'s curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,-
Quran 2:159


وَدَّ كَثيرٌ مِن أَهلِ الكِتٰبِ لَو يَرُدّونَكُم مِن بَعدِ إيمٰنِكُم كُفّارًا حَسَدًا مِن عِندِ أَنفُسِهِم مِن بَعدِ ما تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الحَقُّ ۖ فَاعفوا وَاصفَحوا حَتّىٰ يَأتِىَ اللَّهُ بِأَمرِهِ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلىٰ كُلِّ شَيءٍ قَديرٌ

Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.
Quran 2:109

Allah has told us of their case, however, the remainder of the scripture itself testifies to their falsehood -though perjury doesn't testify well, it can prove itself.
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ali.sahi
10-30-2016, 07:57 PM
I started reading Old Testament a few days back, as a general read to know other major religions (Judaism & Christianity) better. My first major observation was also the same. It is amazing that story of Abraham and Ishmael / Issac is almost the same but chosen son and locations are changed. I also found it difficult to believe that How would Hagar and Ishmael travel so far?
The Ebla Tablets referred by SCIMITAR and interesting observation made on Genesis 22: 13-14 viz a viz Exodus 6:2-3 by Abz2000 is very strong. Thank you very much both gentlemen. If you guys have more to share in the field of comparative study (similarities and differences) between Islam and Christianity, please must do so. Jazak Allah
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AabiruSabeel
10-30-2016, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by cooterhein
Mecca was built on a commercial trade route between Qedar and Dedan. It is also near to the Red Sea. Every truly ancient city in the region that can actually claim a pre-Christian existence has inscriptions dating back to at least the 4th century BCE. For every one of these truly ancient cities, we can put together a mostly-complete list of a succession of rulers going back that far, and they all have mentions of each other. And these archaeological findings have been preserved in neighboring areas, despite those regions having up to 10 inches more rain per year on average than Mecca's region has. And not to focus exclusively on archaeology- regular history itself is strangely silent on the existence of Mecca until the 4th century CE. There was more than one occasion on which a historian of the Roman Empire traveled down the Red Sea and made record of every city and town along the route. The place where Mecca is now, is simply a blank spot in these records- just as much as it is a blank spot in the more ancient archaeological record.
This topic propped up few weeks ago and it was answered in another thread here: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...9-mecca-3.html


The city of Makkah is situated inland and the trade routes are often along the coast, especially when they are travelling through an arid desert. Nobody in their sane mind would wander around inland in such a desert, and where temperatures reach more than 50 degrees Celsius during the day.


Absence of archaeological findings is reasonable because there was absolutely nothing to preserve. No monuments, only sand dunes. Can you find any archaeological evidence for a sand dune that existed just last week?


There is no list of Arab rulers. Arabs were not ruled by any ruler. They were simply nomadic tribes.


During pre-Islamic era, Makkah was still considered as a pilgrimage point among Arabs. But Romans had no interest in it, for them, it was the Jerusalem as the point of pilgrimage, not Makkah. Why would they document something that does not concern them, or their traders?

Originally Posted by cooterhein
Mecca did not exist during Abraham's lifetime. Of course he didn't go there. The end.
Your first statement is right but the second one is wrong.

Makkah did not exist as a city before the time of Ibrahim :as:. It was just a barren valley. When he left his wife and son there, Allah :swt: gifted them with the spring of Zamzam. Then after that, tribes travelling from Yemen saw birds flying over at a distance and sensed presence of water. They approached Hajra :raha: and some of them took her permission to settle down there. That is how it became a city.


Desert travelers often watched birds and followed them in pursuit of water.
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cooterhein
10-30-2016, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
This topic propped up few weeks ago and it was answered in another thread here: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...9-mecca-3.html


The city of Makkah is situated inland and the trade routes are often along the coast, especially when they are travelling through an arid desert. Nobody in their sane mind would wander around inland in such a desert, and where temperatures reach more than 50 degrees Celsius during the day.


Absence of archaeological findings is reasonable because there was absolutely nothing to preserve. No monuments, only sand dunes. Can you find any archaeological evidence for a sand dune that existed just last week?
Well, if you claim that a city existed- an ancient city with people and buildings- then yes, you do expect there to be archaeological evidence. And when such a city exists as such, you find that evidence.


There is no list of Arab rulers. Arabs were not ruled by any ruler. They were simply nomadic tribes.
They weren't exclusively nomadic, as there is detailed evidence for thirteen pre-Islamic cities, and some others that are known to have existed but little information is currently available. And these towns had rulers.

Here's an example. King Qeynu of Qedar ruled from 430-410 BCE. His name is carved into a silver bowl that is on display in a museum. Another record is found in the Graffito of Niran at Dedan, at al-Ula, which mentions Gashmu I, son of Shahr I, king of Qedar. Gashmu is mentioned in the book of Nehemiah, although it's in Hebrew so he's called Gashem, and he is the king who opposed Nehemiah when he wanted to rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylonian exile. He ruled from 450-430 BCE. A total of fourteen kings and queens are known, in a series, to have ruled in northern Arabia between the ninth century and the fifth century BCE.


During pre-Islamic era, Makkah was still considered as a pilgrimage point among Arabs. But Romans had no interest in it, for them, it was the Jerusalem as the point of pilgrimage, not Makkah. Why would they document something that does not concern them, or their traders?
Because no city existed there, and they were only interested in documenting cities that actually existed.



Your first statement is right but the second one is wrong.
My first statement was that Mecca was not a city that existed anywhere near the lifetime of Abraham; if you're agreeing with this then that is outstanding.

Makkah did not exist as a city before the time of Ibrahim
Or for quite a long time after that.

It was just a barren valley. When he left his wife and son there, Allah :swt: gifted them with the spring of Zamzam.
I'm not familiar with that story. Is there any chance this can be verified by non-Quranic sources?

Then after that, tribes travelling from Yemen saw birds flying over at a distance and sensed presence of water. They approached Hajra :raha: and some of them took her permission to settle down there. That is how it became a city.
I actually am familiar with the story of the tribes from Yemen settling in there- in the fourth century CE. Is that what you're talking about? I'm especially interested about the 4th century CE portion of that statement.

Desert travelers often watched birds and followed them in pursuit of water.
Well, that makes sense. (Pun intended).

Come on, that was a good pun.
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AabiruSabeel
10-31-2016, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by cooterhein
Well, if you claim that a city existed- an ancient city with people and buildings- then yes, you do expect there to be archaeological evidence. And when such a city exists as such, you find that evidence.
No, that is not always true.

You do agree that Makkah existed 4th century onward, right? Then why do we not find any archaeological evidence from, say, 5th century? Or you believe that archaeological evidence can only exist for cities that existed before 4th century and cannot be found later ones?



Originally Posted by cooterhein
They weren't exclusively nomadic, as there is detailed evidence for thirteen pre-Islamic cities, and some others that are known to have existed but little information is currently available. And these towns had rulers.
The North and South of Arabia were fertile regions and they had kingdoms or rulers. But the central and the Hijaz area had tribal leaders.

762pxQahtanites 1 -


Also look up Adnan, Khuza'a and Qahtan if you are interested. Even wikipedia has a lot of information about them.



Originally Posted by cooterhein
Because no city existed there, and they were only interested in documenting cities that actually existed.
We do not need testification of any Roman to verify existence of Makkah.
Originally Posted by cooterhein
I'm not familiar with that story. Is there any chance this can be verified by non-Quranic sources?
Qur'an is sufficient for us to believe. Historical documents can be wrong and can be altered, but when Qur'an asserts a fact, then there is no need to look any further.

We believe the Qur'an contains absolute truth. Other documents can be verified using Qur'an, not vice versa.
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